Guild Wars 2

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

redslion.9675:

But if they don’t care about their cubs, shouldn’t they aswell see long lasting relationship as nothing more than a leisure or -worse- a weakness?

Part A does not fit into Slot B here.

Mostly because we’re talking about emotional attachments, and you don’t always get a choice in those how to behave or react rationally/logically.

This should particularly go for all relationships that don’t have reproduction as an end.

Saying that, shouldn’t Charr culture see a relationship as a waste of time?
I don’t think that there is any situation where this comes out, but maybe I just didn’t find it.

Asura, I understand, put exactly that kind of spin on relationships. Work and science first, anything else second. Not to say they don’t care for each other but they do have a skewed sense different from how human beings view things. I present to you Exhibit A: Gadd and Zekk.

I know they don’t have a choice, but I’d expect Charrs to see this as a much more private matter than humans, for example.

Something that you feel, but shoudln’t feel. Like human’s desire to eat treats. We shouldn’t do it, but we can’t help ourselves. But it would not be something to show with pride.

So I might actually see a Charr being uncomfortable in front of two humans kissing.

And Charr have a much higher sense of duty than asuras.

It’s ok for me to kill countless mobs, but if I’m forced to watch two hot chicks kiss then my values have been sacrificed!

Hey Anet, if your gonna force me to sacrifice my values, could you at least make the chicks nekkid. Make it worth my while.

redslion.9675:

I know they don’t have a choice, but I’d expect Charrs to see this as a much more private matter than humans, for example.

It’s very likely it is a private matter and we don’t hear about it because of that. I suspect it’s a lot like how we don’t hear about exactly what goes on behind closed doors and between consenting adults.

Aside from stuff I probably blocked out because I neither want or need to know about it.

Something that you feel, but shoudln’t feel. Like human’s desire to eat treats. We shouldn’t do it, but we can’t help ourselves. But it would not be something to show with pride.

For one charr, apparently talking shop with human rangers about pets is one of those thing “So your Krytan Drakehounds…” “Totally useless. Get a moa. You can at least eat a moa if it misbehaves.”

And Charr have a much higher sense of duty than asuras.

I don’t know, I think charr have a much higher sense of a chain of command and more regimenting than asura do. Oh, sweet Dwayna, asuran politics and chains of command . . . seems to be “how do we circumvent the bureaucracy today to break the laws of nature/physics/magic?”

But that’s another show, er, topic.

DarcShriek.5829:

It’s ok for me to kill countless mobs, but if I’m forced to watch two hot chicks kiss then my values have been sacrificed!

Hey Anet, if your gonna force me to sacrifice my values, could you at least make the chicks nekkid. Make it worth my while.

This naked enough?

Also, having been forced to see Lord Faren in nothing but underwear . . . twice . . . I’d rather ask them for reparations for that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

DarcShriek.5829:

It’s ok for me to kill countless mobs, but if I’m forced to watch two hot chicks kiss then my values have been sacrificed!

Hey Anet, if your gonna force me to sacrifice my values, could you at least make the chicks nekkid. Make it worth my while.

This naked enough?

Also, having been forced to see Lord Faren in nothing but underwear . . . twice . . . I’d rather ask them for reparations for that.

Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about baby! I think Faren’s going to be bummed about the news of Scarlet’s death. I think he wanted to get underneath her fig leaf.

bullyrook.2165:

even if I resent your calling me irrational.

Just the position, not the person.

bullyrook.2165:

Breaking down logic, people have been going back and forth on this topic for eons. If we were to discuss it here, it would take this tread way off topic. If you need to know more, just message me and we can discuss it.

That’s probably far further than I intended to take this discussion.

bullyrook.2165:

Your argument is simply that you have the right to do as you please.

Not necessarily. But in regards to love, if it’s consensual, certainly.

bullyrook.2165:

That is not giving a reason for you to be seen as “right”. It only suggests that you are not “wrong”. One does not necessarily imply the other.

I don’t think there is such a thing as right or wrong in this matter. But there is such a thing as valid or invalid arguments.

bullyrook.2165:

I simply didn’t agree with the point of view. But again, I could always walk away, that is why I kept my mouth shut, up until this point.

What point of view? That two women can fall in love? They do in real life. I don’t see the problem.

bullyrook.2165:

Are you willing to move on your view? I somehow doubt that.

A discussion is impossible, unless you are able to see the side of the person you’re having a discussion with. Otherwise it just becomes a one-way barking match between two stubborn people, and the discussion ultimately doesn’t lead anywhere.

It’s unlikely that you’ll sway my position, but I’m willing to hear what your reasons for your position are, so I can see if I agree with your reasons.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

even if I resent your calling me irrational.

Just the position, not the person.

If that is the case, I hold that you view is as rational as my own. We simply disagree.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

Breaking down logic, people have been going back and forth on this topic for eons. If we were to discuss it here, it would take this tread way off topic. If you need to know more, just message me and we can discuss it.

That’s probably far further than I intended to take this discussion.

Agreed.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

Your argument is simply that you have the right to do as you please.

Not necessarily. But in regards to love, if it’s consensual, certainly.

Then we are on the same page on that point.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

That is not giving a reason for you to be seen as “right”. It only suggests that you are not “wrong”. One does not necessarily imply the other.

I don’t think there is such a thing as right or wrong in this matter. But there is such a thing as valid or invalid arguments.

And this is where we conflict. I believe there is such a thing as right and wrong in this matter, but I am not trying to enforce my view of “right” on you. As for the validity, I believe that if we both chatted about it, you would see that my view is not without its merits, but you would likely still disagree in the end.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

I simply didn’t agree with the point of view. But again, I could always walk away, that is why I kept my mouth shut, up until this point.

What point of view? That two women can fall in love? They do in real life. I don’t see the problem.

They do, but I do not see it as “right” to bring love beyond a “brotherly” or “sisterly” bond. But this is not a question of if your view is right or wrong, it is a question of if it is right to call my view wrong and call your view right within the main story.

It is wrong of the devs to assume we all hold the same values. That much we can both agree on.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

Are you willing to move on your view? I somehow doubt that.

A discussion is impossible, unless you are able to see the side of the person you’re having a discussion with. Otherwise it just becomes a one-way barking match between two stubborn people, and the discussion ultimately doesn’t lead anywhere.

It’s unlikely that you’ll sway my position, but I’m willing to hear what your reasons for your position are, so I can see if I agree with your reasons.

I do see your side. I have contemplated your views and views like yours many many times in my life, and I am currently as accepting as anyone who shares my values.

As for why I cannot be swayed: I am playing a defensive game. If I back down, then that would mean that I am mistaken. I believe that I am not, therefore I have yet to back down. Do not mistake my resolve for the unwillingness to listen. I hear you loud and clear.

Do you really want us to get along? Then show individuals such as myself some form of good will. At the end of the day, we are a community, and I accept your views. Just don’t ask me to approve. The latest development between Kas and Jory is a demand for approval, and many of us cannot give it. What about you? Would you see values such as my own in the game? Chances are that you would react in a similar fashion to how I react to Kas and Jory.

bullyrook.2165:

And this is where we conflict. I believe there is such a thing as right and wrong in this matter, but I am not trying to enforce my view of “right” on you. As for the validity, I believe that if we both chatted about it, you would see that my view is not without its merits, but you would likely still disagree in the end.

That outcome is highly likely. But would you care to explain why you think it would be wrong?

bullyrook.2165:

They do, but I do not see it as “right” to bring love beyond a “brotherly” or “sisterly” bond.

Why not? That is I think the core question.

bullyrook.2165:

It is wrong of the devs to assume we all hold the same values. That much we can both agree on.

I don’t think the devs assume anything in this matter, but I cannot speak for them.

bullyrook.2165:

The latest development between Kas and Jory is a demand for approval, and many of us cannot give it.

I do not see it as such.

bullyrook.2165:

What about you? Would you see values such as my own in the game? Chances are that you would react in a similar fashion to how I react to Kas and Jory.

Fair and interesting question. Not necessarily in this game, since it would seem a bit out of place considering the lore, and the beliefs of the various races of Tyria. But it would all depend on the implementation. I could see myself being fine with your point of view being represented in some way in another videogame where it would be more appropriate.

bullyrook.2165:

Do you really want us to get along? Then show individuals such as myself some form of good will. At the end of the day, we are a community, and I accept your views. Just don’t ask me to approve. The latest development between Kas and Jory is a demand for approval, and many of us cannot give it. What about you? Would you see values such as my own in the game? Chances are that you would react in a similar fashion to how I react to Kas and Jory.

I think the core problem with discussion on this topic is one that always pops up between the anti-homosexuality and the homosexuality-acceptance crowd.

You appear basically to argue that homosexuality is a ‘value’, which to me is similar to people who equate it to ‘politics’. For people who have no objection to homosexuality and people who are homosexuals, it is not a value nor a political statement. It’s what they are and it’s what they do. It’s their everyday life. It’s a part of their identity.

From this perspective, it should be much clearer to understand why advocating the exclusion of homosexuality from games because some people don’t agree with it or like it is in no way equivalent to including homosexuality because it’s a representation of reality and is inclusive of the experiences of many gamers who will consume the content. Thus, you are not arguing for values you disagree with to be excluded from a game – you are asking for real people with a particular identity to be excluded from a game, and are asking for their life experiences to be perceived as invalid or unworthy of representation.

It’s never going to be a balanced discussion due to that fundamental disagreement on principle – that homosexuality is a ‘value’ to be pushed as opposed to an element of real human behaviour to be represented with equal validity in storytelling. Even when both parties are perfectly polite, it will always end in an agreement to disagree.

Rog, let’s try to keep our heads about this. I know where you are coming from, but the way you presented it will only serve to agitate.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

bullyrook.2165:

And this is where we conflict. I believe there is such a thing as right and wrong in this matter, but I am not trying to enforce my view of “right” on you. As for the validity, I believe that if we both chatted about it, you would see that my view is not without its merits, but you would likely still disagree in the end.

That outcome is highly likely. But would you care to explain why you think it would be wrong?

bullyrook.2165:

They do, but I do not see it as “right” to bring love beyond a “brotherly” or “sisterly” bond.

Why not? That is I think the core question.

No, the core question is “why must I agree and/or support you?”

bullyrook.2165:

What about you? Would you see values such as my own in the game? Chances are that you would react in a similar fashion to how I react to Kas and Jory.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Fair and interesting question. Not necessarily in this game, since it would seem a bit out of place considering the lore, and the beliefs of the various races of Tyria. But it would all depend on the implementation. I could see myself being fine with your point of view being represented in some way in another videogame where it would be more appropriate.

Hmm how would you like to see values such as my own presented in a different game?

So what about all the Heterosexual couples who can’t have children due to a variety of problems? Are they wrong too? Is one wrong because they cannot have children whether its due to their orientation or medical issues?

Come now, let’s be serious =)

Faowri.4159:

From this perspective, it should be much clearer to understand why advocating the exclusion of homosexuality from games because some people don’t agree with it or like it is in no way equivalent to including homosexuality because it’s a representation of reality and is inclusive of the experiences of many gamers who will consume the content. Thus, you are not arguing for values you disagree with to be excluded from a game – you are asking for real people with a particular identity to be excluded from a game, and are asking for their life experiences to be perceived as invalid or unworthy of representation.

Sorry, I find myself arguing on the other side here because they aren’t real people. They are characters, a work of fiction. With no more actual reality than Twilight Sparkle, Daryl Dixon, or Tywin Lannister.

(Yes. Ponies, Walking Dead, and Game of Thrones in the same post. For those playing reference bingo, you’re one Godwin away from winning.)

The characters may be partially based on reality, or they may be “written about some guy I knew who lived down the hall in college”. But they’re not reality, so trying to shift the discussion to make it about real people isn’t . . . it just won’t work.

Now. That said.

It is asking for one set of values to be excluded from the game as being “wrong”, and generally it’s a sticky business . . . because it can always be argued this one particular thing can’t be excluded or else X, and Y must also, or vice versa. Usually things picked to be X and Y are so inappropriate or inflammatory there’s the reaction of “What? NO!” and thus the point is proved “valid”.

Here’s the serious limitation: there are some things which cannot be put into the game because it would be exceedingly disadvantageous to selling it. Thereby harming the company. If the game was evangelizing a particular religion and decrying all others as wrong. If the game took a particular and unnamed real-world attempt at genocide (and you’ve got more than one to pick from) and show it as having positive value. If it utilizes human biological waste as an actual weapon . . .

. . . wait, nevermind, they made that game already. Scratch that one.

Point is, there is a list of things they cannot do both for political reasons, sociological reasons, and for rating reasons (you will not see graphic dismemberment or anatomically correct animals).

This particular thing is not on that list. So it can be put in. Whether it should or not . . . whether it has a place or not . . . this is an issue which bears more of the real people rather than the fictional people. Because the answer is “it’s fiction, who cares if it’s legal to marry your sister in Cantha?” rather than “it’s not right”. At least when discussing whether or not it can be done.

It’s never going to be a balanced discussion due to that fundamental disagreement on principle – that homosexuality is a ‘value’ to be pushed as opposed to an element of real human behaviour to be represented with equal validity in storytelling. Even when both parties are perfectly polite, it will always end in an agreement to disagree.

It’s not the sexuality as a value, it’s more as the values supposedly attached to the behavior. At least, this is the usual stock reply to that point. I’ve been to too many discussions about this.

bullyrook.2165:

No, the core question is “why must I agree and/or support you?”

No, seriously, the real concern now is why you keep ducking the question or deflecting it. That’s getting irritating to watch continue, so either decline to answer it or leave it alone. And this is coming from someone who doesn’t really have a personal problem with your posts yet.

I deflect the conversation because my goal is not to prove that individuals of that persuasion are wrong. I am not the one on the offensive in this discussion, I am the one on the defensive.

You cannot prove me wrong, any more than I can prove you wrong.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

(Yes. Ponies, Walking Dead, and Game of Thrones in the same post. For those playing reference bingo, you’re one Godwin away from winning.)

If the game took a particular and unnamed real-world attempt at genocide (and you’ve got more than one to pick from)

BINGO! I’ve got BINGO!

bullyrook.2165:

I deflect the conversation because my goal is not to prove that individuals of that persuasion are wrong. I am not the one on the offensive in this discussion, I am the one on the defensive.

You cannot prove me wrong, any more than I can prove you wrong.

I don’t care about proving you “wrong”. It’s an opinion. Opinions aren’t right or wrong, they just are. The most you can be is mistaken about a fact, but if you “just don’t like it” . . . there’s nothing wrong with it.

Want proof? Try substituting ice cream flavors.

“Oh man, this cherry vanilla is awesome!”
“Nah, I don’t like vanilla.”
“You’re so wrong it’s disgusting.”

. . . see? Doesn’t work. Now if we were talking about a fact like 2+2=6 ? Then I could/would call you wrong.

bullyrook.2165:

No, the core question is “why must I agree and/or support you?”

Hang on, lets not keep dancing around the questions like this. I did ask you a question. As I stated, I don’t see anything right OR wrong about this issue. People just are the way they are.

But you are suggesting that there’s something not right about it. So please explain why you feel that way. Don’t deflect the question please, just try to answer it. There quite clearly is something here that makes you uncomfortable. Can you explain what it is?

bullyrook.2165:

Hmm how would you like to see values such as my own presented in a different game?

Well without making too many assumptions about your exact position (since I’m still waiting for an explanation on what your exact position is, and more importantly, why). I can imagine a setting for a game, in which an arranged marriage to someone of the opposite sex is expected, due to social conventions. Imagine a sort of game of thrones like setting, where those of nobility are expected to produce an heir, yet are of a different persuasion than what is accepted in their society, which leads to disagreements among fellow nobility (game of thrones touched upon this subject in regards to King Rhenly, if you’re familiar with the show). I’m fine with your kind of position being represented in such a way in a videogame or any other medium. Because there’s a valid reason why nobility would disapprove of it.

Funnily enough, gay people have children all the time. I several couples who have had children. If they’re lesbian couples, a male friend helps out. If they’re gay couples, a female friend helps out.

I don’t think there’s really any point to continuing this argument. Both sides are firmly entrenched in their position and nothing the other side says is going to change it. If you like/dislike the Marmeer kiss scene, just post your feedback, and leave the final decision to ANet.

Should we mention David Crosby for instance? I know about that one only through general trivia games from a bar.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

bullyrook.2165:

No, the core question is “why must I agree and/or support you?”

No, seriously, the real concern now is why you keep ducking the question or deflecting it. That’s getting irritating to watch continue, so either decline to answer it or leave it alone. And this is coming from someone who doesn’t really have a personal problem with your posts yet.

Well it is obvious he is avoiding the question because he’s trying to be polite as possible, and doesn’t wish to foil the tread with “I think it’s wrong because I don’t like it/they don’t produce children” or whatever reason I heard people say.

Erukk.1408:

NinjaChris.9340:

In terms of Faolain and Caithe, keep in mind that gender distinction with Sylvari are almost arbitrary, since a: the relationship is never sexual and b: gender roles are not present in sylvaren society, as there is no difference between genders (as far as we know). Introducing “genders” to the Sylvari was basically just to make the race feel a bt more familiar.

From what I remember of the old dev posts and interviews, the Sylvari do have genitalia, and they do engage in sex as well.

I’d imagine they’d need plentiful lubricant to avoid catching fire.

bullyrook.2165:

It is wrong of the devs to assume we all hold the same values. That much we can both agree on.

Making a game that appeals to everyone, will ultimately appeal to no one.

I am curious why you think your values should be respected when your values don’t respect other people.

It seems pretty obvious why you won’t anwser this question:

bullyrook.2165:

I deflect the conversation because my goal is not to prove that individuals of that persuasion are wrong. I am not the one on the offensive in this discussion, I am the one on the defensive.

In your own words:

bullyrook.2165:

Rog, let’s try to keep our heads about this. I know where you are coming from, but the way you presented it will only serve to agitate.

You clearly know answering that question will put you in a position where any support you think you’ve won will instantly dissipate. And any foot-holding in this discussion you might have had, will instantly vanish.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Sorry, I find myself arguing on the other side here because they aren’t real people. They are characters, a work of fiction. With no more actual reality than Twilight Sparkle, Daryl Dixon, or Tywin Lannister.
….
The characters may be partially based on reality, or they may be “written about some guy I knew who lived down the hall in college”. But they’re not reality, so trying to shift the discussion to make it about real people isn’t . . . it just won’t work.

Why do we have heterosexual relationships in storytelling? Simply because they are a facet of real life and representative of real life experience that readers/moviegoers/gamers also experience and enjoy seeing reflected in the media they consume, right?

What I’m saying is that including homosexual relationships is no different, so when one set of people are arguing that it’s value-pushing as opposed to the above, they will never reach resolution because they are arguing fundamentally different points.

It is extremely important for people to be able to see themselves represented positively in the media they consume. I’m fully aware that Jory and Kas are not real people, but their sexual identities and relationship represent the experiences of a set of real people, so excluding them amounts to being exclusive of part of your player base. It’s the same reason it’s important to have good/numerous female characters, and characters (where human xD) of diverse races.

Again, if your stance is that “it’s just a game”, “it’s just fiction” and representation doesn’t matter, then that’s another point for mutual disagreement so I won’t push that, but I did want to clarify what I meant.

@Faowri, I unfortunately hit the text limit but I wanted to make a good case. Two posts coming.

Faowri.4159:

Why do we have heterosexual relationships in storytelling? Simply because they are a facet of real life and representative of real life experience that readers/moviegoers/gamers also experience and enjoy seeing reflected in the media they consume, right?

From a viewer/reader standpoint, sure why not? We all like to see that true love can conquer anything, or that we can all find that special someone to share the rest of our lives with. Or, for less romantic love and more familial love . . . that we are loved enough by our friends and family, that they would go to the ends of the earth and beyond for our well-being.

And it’s good to see a homosexual relationship we can find someone we know in, yes? It validates it as a mirror of reality, and it loans the story an air we can connect to emotionally because it resonates.

From a writer’s standpoint? They’re there for one reason only – loading a gun to be fired later. They make a cute couple, right? They really love each other and you can see hurting one hurts the other. So . . . that’s what it’s for. You are loading this relationship so you can pull the trigger and end it later somehow. It is your trump card to generate drama later, however you need to, even if you have to write out one or both of them.

It sounds cynical and cruel, partly because it is. And partly because as the writer these are not real people but constructs of your imagination to play out the drama/comedy for people watching/reading. It’s your duty to make things work out so they do react when you have death or disruption hit your lovely couple who just said they’d be together forever. This is your job, and pulling that trigger is perhaps the quickest way to bring that emotional connection and make it work.

1/2

What I’m saying is that including homosexual relationships is no different, so when one set of people are arguing that it’s value-pushing as opposed to the above, they will never reach resolution because they are arguing fundamentally different points.

But on the other hand, I’m saying this is a fascinating discussion and we are getting at least some interesting things to talk about here. Yet . . . we are discussing fictional characters and not real people. Kasmeer and Marjory? They don’t know or care about what’s going on out here where it’s still almost something to be ashamed of more places than it’s not.

These people are not in the real world. These people do not live down the block from you. We do need to recognize we are not crusading for real rights or real intolerances, we are talking about two characters in a work of fiction. bullyrook can talk about all the values he wants, and how he doesn’t like this, or other people can talk how it doesn’t belong because they don’t want it in their game.

But this is not real, and nobody is forcing you to change your values or your orientation. They’re not out to convert you any more than when they have charr shouting “there are no gods for the charr!” they’re trying to make us atheists. All they’re asking you to do is feel for the characters/setting and understand why things happen. Or not, that’s your prerogative as a viewer/reader.

It is extremely important for people to be able to see themselves represented positively in the media they consume. I’m fully aware that Jory and Kas are not real people, but their sexual identities and relationship represent the experiences of a set of real people, so excluding them amounts to being exclusive of part of your player base. It’s the same reason it’s important to have good/numerous female characters, and characters (where human xD) of diverse races.

As a reader/viewer, I’d agree wholeheartedly it’s important to have wonderful representations of all the colors of the rainbow so to speak. You don’t want to make it look like you say “that has no place here” even without saying anything, but just through exclusion.

As a writer, I’d argue the story is much more important. If you want a strong female character but you stink at writing them, it’s better to leave them out rather than write a cliche which some could see as parodying their gender. If you want homosexual characters but the best you can do is Carmen Ghia from The Producers? Rethink if you really need it.

Again, if your stance is that “it’s just a game”, “it’s just fiction” and representation doesn’t matter, then that’s another point for mutual disagreement so I won’t push that, but I did want to clarify what I meant.

I do get what you mean. Please, please don’t misunderstand me.

I like this relationship mostly because it felt better than the other active one we know of (Logan/Jenna) and seemed to say “yes, the writers can write romance if they put their minds to it”. But we’re not discussing actual flesh and blood. We’re discussing characters. Furthermore . . . we are discussing Guild Wars 2, a game where there’s simultaneously Scarlet Briar and her forces laying waste to Lion’s Arch . . . and there’s a whole-plot-reference of the Goonies. There’s a part of the personal story where you get drunk and have to rescue a noblewoman while drunk off your boots, or where your norn got so drunk they misplaced a tank. And given the botch they threw getting the Living Story rolling, and the other general faulty bits? I’m just grateful the romance came off as well as it did.

Whether they’re homosexual, heterosexual, pansexual, doesn’t matter so much as me going “oh thank Lyssa they didn’t botch it”. You can be inspired seeing homosexual female characters portrayed in a way other than valley girl, man-hating tomboy, or shrieking harpy. I’ll be inspired they got characters which feel . . . well, human.

2/2

As a side note, while I do agree that they did a decent job at writing Kasmeer and Jory’s romance, it’s a pity that the writers didn’t really give them an arc. They face off against Scarlet, Jory almost dies, Braham gets injured, Kasmeer wants revenge. Then Scarlet dies, and Kasmeer and Jory kiss. None of them changed as a character. Kasmeer was still having the hiccups throughout it all, and it didn’t really come across that her revenge against Scarlet changed her in any way as a character. And I think that is a pity.

I realize there’s only so much that can be squeezed into these living story updates, so I have to be reasonable. But I do recognize a lack of character arcs. I wonder why that is.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

As a side note, while I do agree that they did a decent job at writing Kasmeer and Jory’s romance, it’s a pity that the writers didn’t really give them an arc. They face off against Scarlet, Jory almost dies, Braham gets injured, Kasmeer wants revenge. Then Scarlet dies, and Kasmeer and Jory kiss. None of them changed as a character. Kasmeer was still having the hiccups throughout it all, and it didn’t really come across that her revenge against Scarlet changed her in any way as a character. And I think that is a pity.

Still early to see what Scarlet’s death did to her. I know there was dialogue in Lion’s Arch where Marjory mentions Kasmeer’s changed in the time since she started working with her and become a tougher, more firm person.

Braham didn’t seem changed either too much after clearing the Molten Weapons Facility, but it did show he was less hung up on turning to others for help and more independent.

Also, those hiccups . . . probably aren’t something which can just go away, depending on how deep they run into her head.

I realize there’s only so much that can be squeezed into these living story updates, so I have to be reasonable. But I do recognize a lack of character arcs. I wonder why that is.

Amateur work.

Not meaning that as an insult, it just really really comes off through this whole thing that this was really the first time the teams were trying their hand at putting this together and gameplay or other ideas were coming before the story or the pacing. I’m grateful they didn’t start Kasmeer/Marjory earlier – with the way the disjointed topics were bouncing around I’d have been gnashing teeth over it.

Faowri.4159:

Why do we have heterosexual relationships in storytelling? Simply because they are a facet of real life and representative of real life experience that readers/moviegoers/gamers also experience and enjoy seeing reflected in the media they consume, right?

Actually no. The important thing to know about fiction is that it is that it is ultimately fantasy. An idealation of some kind.. The fantasy is created for a myriad of motives, such as expression, profit, inspiration, condemnation, and can be used for both the exploration of a concept as well as the exploitation of a concept. It is always important to know that no pen stroke is ever non-deliberate. Fiction serves a purpose, specifically one where mere fact is inadequate.

Relatability is usually a side factor that determines marketing success. Relatability’s selling point in fiction is the ability for someone to transpose themselves onto the role of the protagonist, as the similarities make someone feel more prominent and important in society. Relatability, however, is not necessary for idealation at all. In fact, it can be a detriment to idealation: blanket relatability is often extremely bland, and more accurate portrayals of people will emphasize their negative traits, which then comes off as condemnation of one’s character.

In particular, focal romances are largely wish fulfillment that work by transposition. I’ve read enough about werewolf/vampire love triangles and seen enough romantic comedies to know that. To anyone in the right state of mind, the build of the romance itself is an expression of their desires. To everyone else, romances are bland and uninteresting.

This makes up my largest criticism of Jory/Kas: it produces nothing. Their romance in the story has succeeded in only putting their romance in the story, and were it nonexistent the story of the game wouldn’t suffer in any way. The relationships of the other characters are deeper and produce more: Rox/Braham shows the conflict of char loyalties and pride versus their fire-forged friendship, with Braham’s immaturity and abandonment issues putting additional stress and doubt on Rox’s goals. This is interesting, because it tells me about the world of tyria while also establishing dynamic and unpredictable relationships in which further stories of equal quality can and will be told. I don’t know how Rox/Braham is going to end or where it is going, so from the air of mystery, conflict, and activity I have a vested interest. The similar air of mystery and conflict exists with the Logan/Jennah relationship, which in-game wise exists mostly to provide an interpersonal conflict to resolve in Destiny’s Edge.

But Jory/Kas are… cute? Honestly I think that if this wasn’t a same-sex relationship, their romance would’ve been universally panned. I’m not the biggest fan of homosexual relationships, but in regular media same-sex relationships generally do more than just… be. Heck, my favorite movie has multiple homosexual relationships, and I don’t even care because it is played for tension, conflict, and laughs. Several things that vastly overshadow the social issue in their quality alone.

Kas/Jory has nothing to cast that shadow. Kas/Jory, for all intents and purposes, seems to exist solely to press the social issue. Or exploit it… maybe both.

That is a valid point. The romance ultimately doesn’t serve the story in any way. I wish the writers would find a way to work a romance such as this one into the plot. Now it’s just there, and with a big close up. But it’s not exactly entwined with the story.

The writers have stated before that they look up to Game of Thrones as an excellent example of story telling, and I agree. But no relationship in Game of Thrones is disconnected to the story. There are no fluff relationships, it’s all part of the plot or a character arc.

In Game of Thrones, characters do not fall in love and kiss for no good reason. They do so because their relationship causes problems, and makes good people make bad decisions. This directly drives the plot forward.

I would like to see the relationship between Kasmeer and Marjory drive the plot forward as well.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Rox/Braham shows the conflict of charr loyalties and pride versus their fire-forged friendship, with Braham’s immaturity and abandonment issues putting additional stress and doubt on Rox’s goals. This is interesting, because it tells me about the world of tyria while also establishing dynamic and unpredictable relationships in which further stories of equal quality can and will be told. I don’t know how Rox/Braham is going to end or where it is going, so from the air of mystery, conflict, and activity I have a vested interest. The similar air of mystery and conflict exists with the Logan/Jennah relationship, which in-game wise exists mostly to provide an interpersonal conflict to resolve in Destiny’s Edge.

You mean Logan/Rytlock when you’re talking about the conflict of duty and friendship. That was_their_ whole issue. Logan/Jennah is more “Woman In The Queenly Mask”, as she cannot currently appear to show anything back to him, no matter how much it hurts him for her to be distant. Countess Anise knows, and seems to prefer it if Logan stop letting it distract him from his duty.

But more importantly? Rox/Braham isn’t romance. It’s friendship of two people who have fought side by side enough to form a bond.

But Jory/Kas are… cute? Honestly I think that if this wasn’t a same-sex relationship, their romance would’ve been universally panned.

Hm, no. I mean, I get your point here but . . .

I find the sheer simplicity of it is preferable to trying to milk it for drama this early. And right now, despite all we can make of this? It’s still only them dating so far as we know. (And no I don’t want to know if they have to leave a “DND” sign on the door, please please please please please. . . . )

It’s refreshing for it to be . . . simple . . . in a genre (gaming) where it seems game writers seem compelled to make it complicated. Being a couple is complicated enough past the dating period, oh merciful gods, is it ever so much more complicated.

Kas/Jory has nothing to cast that shadow. Kas/Jory, for all intents and purposes, seems to exist solely to press the social issue. Or exploit it… maybe both.

Maybe. It’s intriguing (for myself) how it didn’t come off as exploitative to me. Though . . . I think I can sense something of “a thing to say”, but it’s not there yet. We’ll see later.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The writers have stated before that they look up to Game of Thrones as an excellent example of story telling, and I agree. But no relationship in Game of Thrones is disconnected to the story. There are no fluff relationships, it’s all part of the plot or a character arc.

. . . to the point where it can be where you start your stopwatch until the character has it backfire on them, yes. I admire a lot of things of A Song of Fire and Ice, but that isn’t one of them.

In Game of Thrones, characters do not fall in love and kiss for no good reason. They do so because their relationship causes problems, and makes good people make bad decisions. This directly drives the plot forward.

I would like to see the relationship between Kasmeer and Marjory drive the plot forward as well.

For some reason or another, I don’t think that’s going to be a problem. I still get the sense . . . well. Let’s hope their wedding goes better than the Tully kid’s.

^^
The fact that Kasmeer and Marjory just “are” is one of the things I like most about them honestly.
It is nice to see a simple relationship that has no other reason but just being.

I am so very tired of relationships always being milked for drama.
Sometimes it works sure- but in this case I feel there is enough surrounding drama going on that I appreciate that they are just together.

Everything doesn’t have to be a plot point- some things can just be window dressing- I am fine with that

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You mean Logan/Rytlock when you’re talking about the conflict of duty and friendship. That was_their_ whole issue. Logan/Jennah is more “Woman In The Queenly Mask”, as she cannot currently appear to show anything back to him, no matter how much it hurts him for her to be distant. Countess Anise knows, and seems to prefer it if Logan stop letting it distract him from his duty.

But more importantly? Rox/Braham isn’t romance. It’s friendship of two people who have fought side by side enough to form a bond.

Logan/Jennah was, ultimately, the source of conflict between Logan/Rytlock, as well as the death of Snaff and the failure to kill Krakortorik. Case in point, the romance between the two produced “something” that we’ll probably still see the effects of in the future.

I also never said Rox/Braham was a romance. I said relationship.

Hm, no. I mean, I get your point here but . . .

I find the sheer simplicity of it is preferable to trying to milk it for drama this early. And right now, despite all we can make of this? It’s still only them dating so far as we know.

Simplicity doesn’t need to be boring. There’s an entire genre that is based upon simplicity and lack of drama but is still interesting to watch: comedy.

Maybe. It’s intriguing (for myself) how it didn’t come off as exploitative to me. Though . . . I think I can sense something of “a thing to say”, but it’s not there yet. We’ll see later.

It didn’t come off as exploitative to me, either. But, nonetheless, it is something I’ve heard to describe the relationship, and I can’t disprove it.

Morrigan.2809:

^^
The fact that Kasmeer and Marjory just “are” is one of the things I like most about them honestly.
It is nice to see a simple relationship that has no other reason but just being.

I am so very tired of relationships always being milked for drama.
Sometimes it works sure- but in this case I feel there is enough surrounding drama going on that I appreciate that they are just together.

Everything doesn’t have to be a plot point- some things can just be window dressing- I am fine with that

I can see the merit of that. However, from my point of view it’s also a missed opportunity. Because love and relationships can lead to conflict, which in turn can make the plot more deep. To take Game of Thrones again as an example, Kat’s love for Ned Stark drives her disdain for Jon Snow, because he is not her son (which is why they send him to the Wall). And when her family becomes at risk, she makes ill-informed choices that drive the plot forward (like taking Tyrion hostage, handing him to her crazy sister Lysa, and freeing Jamie to free Sansa and Arya), and this all makes total sense from the point of view of her character.

Character relations directly affect the plot in Game of Thrones. Kasmeer and Jory love each other, but the plot has not touched upon the role of Kasmeer’s family, and their opinion of her relationship with Jory. Nor has her attachment to Jory put her into a position to make difficult choices. These are all things that interest me. It creates conflict, and can drive the plot in interesting directions.

I was just re-watching the drill scene again to make sure I had my details right. Kasmeer’s hiccups seem to stop after Scarlet is sent to the Great Compost Heap in the Sky. She runs to Marjory and realizes she’s okay; no more hiccups. So if she has changed as a character, become stronger and more confident, we’ll know whenever we see them adventuring again. Is Kasmeer gonna hiccup her way through LS Season Two, or is she gonna summon five clones and kitten? We’ll have to wait and see.

(By the way, my mesmer wants to know what weapon she has to equip to get five clones.)

As for Rox and Braham…well, I’m with Tobias. I get the sense they are close friends made even closer by their experiences, but nothing more than that. Remember, they were both lonely when they met. Rox had no warband and Braham had conflict with his mother as well as…his hairstyle.

(Honestly, Anet, Braham’s hair is just…godawful. LS Season Two should somehow have him shaving his head at some point.)

But I don’t get the sense of any romantic subtext between them. Why are some of us so determined to see it?

bullyrook.2165:

No, the core question is “why must I agree and/or support you?”

Can I ask why you feel the existence of a homosexual couple in the game implies your agreement and support of it? I don’t support Evon Gnashblade being a devious manipulator, I don’t support the Sons of Svanir trying to corrupt everything for Jormag, and I don’t particularly support Logan doing anything because he’s so bloody annoying. I don’t support murder, thievery, drinking to excess or any number of things that exist in Tyria (and our own world, as well, for that matter). But I don’t think playing GW2 qualifies as joining a real-world political party, or voting, or following a religion, and I don’t think that playing the game implies I agree or support every possible action or thought or idea in the game.

Laurelinde.4395:

I don’t support Evon Gnashblade being a devious manipulator,

Hang the Kiel supporter! Raaaaargh! -angry pitch forks-

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Laurelinde.4395:

I don’t support Evon Gnashblade being a devious manipulator,

Hang the Kiel supporter! Raaaaargh! -angry pitch forks-

Hey, no, bad Queen. No derailing the topic with the Cutthroat Politics stuff. Back in the penalty box.

Nawww….. -Puts away Evon support badges-

Wow I honestly never thought this thread would get so big, but I’m glad it did! Personally, I think Anet has dispelled some of the concerns I had when I first made the thread. Originally, I thought Kas and Marjory where just being lesbians to appease a straight male audience. While I do believe this certainly has something to do with the decision, I also would state now that their relationship is present as MUCH more than that. Little additions like their house in DR or the curtain banter really sell them for me. Had it just been their flirting and the finale kiss I would have maintained my position that it’s just for the “hot lesbian” effect, but now when I saw the kiss I actually cared and REALLY did not want Marjory to die (we necros gotta stick together).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Nawww….. -Puts away Evon support badges-

I thought you were campaigning for Mad King’s return to power?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Laurelinde.4395:

I don’t support Evon Gnashblade being a devious manipulator,

Hang the Kiel supporter! Raaaaargh! -angry pitch forks-

Ha! Well, I did vote Kiel but I find her a bit dull, in truth, I kind of forget she exists until she turns up in the story.

I’m voting Heal-o-tron in 2016!

Erm…hmm…on-topic…I guess I just feel like it’s ok to play the game and like or dislike things without feeling like you are being asked to take an ideological position on anything based on the in-game lore or living story.

Darkbattlemage.9612:

I thought you were campaigning for Mad King’s return to power?

I have my own agenda.

Mortifact.3102:

Had it just been their flirting and the finale kiss I would have maintained my position that it’s just for the “hot lesbian” effect, but now when I saw the kiss I actually cared and REALLY did not want Marjory to die (we necros gotta stick together).

My only issue with it is, that it seemed like they were steering towards a kiss all along. But I don’t think a close up of two ladies kissing is what the goal of the story should be. I really wanted to learn more about Scarlets goals, but that’s not what we got.

A romance is fine if it furthers the plot, and if there’s an arc. But right now I’m not seeing that. It would be interesting if in future content the writers let Jory or Kasmeer betray each others trust, and drive a wedge between them. That adds a bit more tension to the story.

It’s still only the first LW season, though. I’m sure they have more planned for the characters, including arcs focusing on their respective backgrounds and situations. But I know I’d hate it if they rushed things and we would have a bad character story.

For the record, I thought it was a sweet scene and it didn’t seem out of place to me.

Mortifact.3102:

I’m starting to think Anet is just doing it because girl on girl is hot.

Well I believe that at least one of the writers want to “educate” us or something. And btw I’m ok with lesbian romances – but GOOD ONES. What they write for ANet (and not just the romances) is a flat and empty cliche, nothing more. And sorry, Faolain and Caithe were as hopeless as the whole Destiny Edge… I wonder if the story designers ever had a normal social human life – no real human beings can be such a bunch of annoying drama queens like the Destiny Edge.

Fext.3614:

no real human beings can be such a bunch of annoying drama queens like the Destiny Edge.

Clearly, you have not been around tabletop gamers for very long in your lifetime. Trust me . . . there’s worse which inhabits your Friendly Local Gaming Store.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fext.3614:

no real human beings can be such a bunch of annoying drama queens like the Destiny Edge.

Clearly, you have not been around tabletop gamers for very long in your lifetime. Trust me . . . there’s worse which inhabits your Friendly Local Gaming Store.

Teachers. Teachers are the biggest drama queens I know. It seems that being around kids all day rubs off on them. Not all teachers of course, but more teachers than other professions I am familiar with.

DarcShriek.5829:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fext.3614:

no real human beings can be such a bunch of annoying drama queens like the Destiny Edge.

Clearly, you have not been around tabletop gamers for very long in your lifetime. Trust me . . . there’s worse which inhabits your Friendly Local Gaming Store.

Teachers. Teachers are the biggest drama queens I know. It seems that being around kids all day rubs off on them. Not all teachers of course, but more teachers than other professions I am familiar with.

As someone who did substitute teaching? It’s exactly that. Teachers cannot win in the system, some places, and it beats them down until they just don’t care anymore. Or they turn it from a career into a social club, but those type of people do it anywhere.

College teachers, not quite so much.

But seriously, the kind of drama Destiny’s Edge has going on? I’ve almost exactly seen it happen on tabletop gaming. Especially White Wolf games.

DarcShriek.5829:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fext.3614:

no real human beings can be such a bunch of annoying drama queens like the Destiny Edge.

Clearly, you have not been around tabletop gamers for very long in your lifetime. Trust me . . . there’s worse which inhabits your Friendly Local Gaming Store.

Teachers. Teachers are the biggest drama queens I know. It seems that being around kids all day rubs off on them. Not all teachers of course, but more teachers than other professions I am familiar with.

After spending years being an adult, I can say with absolute certainty that maturity is a lie told to me by my parents in an attempt to conform my actions into something more convenient for them. The same petty antics you see on an elementary playground are what I see every day at colleges, jobs, offices, clubs, and politics. The only difference now is that, when a post-graduate engineer throws a hissy fit because he wants to eat the muffin that someone else bought to work, he can espouse philosophical and sociological justification for stealing Ted’s muffin.