Guild Wars 2

draxynnic.3719:

sigh
It frustrates me whenever I see someone defining a god as something that can just wave their hand and cause anything that opposes them to simply disappear, if they could be bothered to do so. That may be the modern concept of a god in a monotheistic religion, but such gods work poorly in fantasy settings, unless they are portrayed as being as effectively completely non-interventionist.

Well as I explained, in a world that has so much magic, you need to have higher standards when it comes to defining a god.

draxynnic.3719:

One of the characteristics of this constraint is that the gods often end up fighting primordial monsters that, while not considered to be gods, do represent a substantial threat to the gods. To give just one example, for instance, nobody thought less of Thor that he was destined to die fighting Jormungandr at Ragnarok.

These primordial monsters are however generally speaking, monsters that only the gods fight, and only the gods can kill. But with the Elder Dragons, we fight them as well, and we have even killed one (which as far as we know, means we’ve killed more Elder Dragons than the human gods).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

.Congratulations Thor, Zeus, Hades, Odin, and all the others out there. You’re not gods!

Like I said, in a world full of magic, your standards for defining a god need to be higher. Thorn, Zeus, Hades, Odin, they could all do things no living mortal could do on our world. But on Tyria, dozens of players can hurl lightning bolts, and raise armies of undead minions from the soil. You need a little bit more to claim someone is a god.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Who said they’re hiding?

Oh yeah, Gadd, who didn’t even know of the existence of the Elder Dragons.

The gods knew of the elder dragons, and conveniently left Tyria before they awakened. They basically left us to die. If WE know that the Elder Dragons have wiped out countless generations before them, then surely the gods know as well. What other excuse can there be? They went where the Elder Dragons wouldn’t be able to touch them, or feed on their magic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

“The human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria. *However, they have pulled back into the mists, leaving the humans to stand (or fall) on their own merits. There has been a tendency for the human gods to, um, meddle with their worshippers a bit much, and in the wake of the final battle of Abaddon, they have been trying to cut back.

Yeah, and risk their creation being wiped out completely, just like nearly every race before us? I’m sorry, but that argument doesn’t fly. Not even when its Jeff saying it. It makes no sense. It sounds like a weak excuse.

draxynnic.3719:

Presumably, because there’s something inherent about their natural form’s appearance that causes the blindness, and they’re not capable of assuming a disguise that is exactly identical to their natural form that doesn’t have the blindness? Kind of like how nymphs in earlier editions of D&D could not turn off their ‘so beautiful that anything that looks at me risks getting blinded’ trait.

Really, this whole side of the argument rests on whether you think all of the gods (not just the darker ones like Abaddon and Balthazar, but also the gentler ones like Dwayna and Melandru) are heartless enough to deliberately blind somebody as ‘proof of their divinity’ – and that’s something I don’t think can be proven either way.

To be honest, though, it’s also kinda irrelevant: I could easily come up with explanations for the blinding property based on them being exactly what Gadd claims, having to do with high concentrations of magic in a smaller volume than the Elder Dragons. That half of them apparently have wings is, I think, a stronger piece of evidence against them all being humans.

But, Some of the Margonites, who were originally humans, grew wings when Abaddon gave them power. And it wasn’t just one type of wing, it was several variations. Isn’t it possible then, that if the Gods were originally humans, and when they obtained power and ascended to godhood, that they also grew several variations of wings, based on their nature, and the nature of the magic they absorbed? Even if you argue that Abaddon’s magic corrupted the Margonites and it was this corruption than gave way to those wings, it could also be assumed that Earth and Nature magic ‘corrupted’ Melandru when she absorbed that power, and grew wings as a result appropriate to the magic she absorbed?

I think the wing evidence falls apart when you expand the lore we’re looking at a little and consider this. With or without the wings, the possibility that (all) the gods could have once been humans is still in play. Their blinding divinity doesn’t really matter at this point, since we know that a human can absorb a god’s power and become a god, alleged divinity and all.

The Mursaat have wings, but they are just very powerful spell casters, and not gods. They got worshiped like gods by the White Mantle all the same though. It’s possible that beyond a certain amount of magic, it simply starts to alter the way people (people, in the broadest sense of the word) look. The Mursaat could also not be looked upon without suffering from spectral agony, but that was just some sort of magical effect that they produced. And it wasn’t exclusive to them either. Their jade constructs also produced spectral agony, yet they were not gods.

I was just screwing around with that Mursaat “being the progenitors of all human-like races” theory. Its so ridiculous, it could actually be…..nope, definitely not true!

But, the fact that some of the Margonites grew wings when Abaddon gave them power (they obviously didn’t have wings as humans!)…I think its more evidence than not that the Gods are/were humans at one point, and when they got power, some of them grew wings in the same way as the Margonites did.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Well as I explained, in a world that has so much magic, you need to have higher standards when it comes to defining a god.

Given enough time, I can think of an arbitrary number of fantasy stories where gods could be seriously threatened, and in some cases were actually killed, by sufficiently powerful mortals in high-magic settings.

Thing is, for any story to have meaningful conflict (unless the whole point of the story is the protagonist’s relationship with something all-powerful) then it can’t have characters, gods included, that are so powerful that they can erase anything from existence with a wave of their hand. So in any given setting, any gods that are involved need to be either constrained in power, or sufficiently uninterested in the events of the story that they do not use their omnipotent power to intervene. It’d be a pretty boring game if it was ‘And as each of the Elder Dragons awoke, Dwayna waved her hand and it disappeared in a puff of rainbows.’

Unless GW2 was part of a Sims-based franchise or something, I guess. No combat, because the the gods wave their hands and instantly delete anything that goes against them.

If you want omnipotent gods in a functional MMO, then you effectively want gods that play no part in the story except through the actions of their priests, and where it’s left open to interpretation whether those gods even exist at all.

draxynnic.3719:

These primordial monsters are however generally speaking, monsters that only the gods fight, and only the gods can kill. But with the Elder Dragons, we fight them as well, and we have even killed one (which as far as we know, means we’ve killed more Elder Dragons than the human gods).

Yes, we killed an Elder Dragon… after a multi-pronged effort to starve it of magic, and with a fleet of airships and magitech weapons specially designed for the task. This wasn’t as simple as Hercules wrestling the Nemean Lion or cauterising a few necks.

If the Jotuns were to reappear tomorrow and start invading the Mediterranean, with all the powers attributed to them by Norse mythology, then NATO might well look at it’s kitten nal of tanks and bombers and nukes and drones and so on and decide “Y’know, we actually have a shot at this.” Wouldn’t make Thor any less impressive if he showed up and started making thunderstorms at will, though.

And, relating back to Jeff’s interview… this might actually be the point. The gods have left because they’re confident that humans can handle it.

EDIT: I’d written the above up an hour or so ago and then got distracted and forgotten I hadn’t posted it, so it hadn’t taken into account some of the more recent posts:

Regarding the Margonite Paragons growing wings: Yes, it’s possible that the wings only came after achieving divinity. However, it’s a stretch to say that there is ‘more evidence that all of the gods were once humans than not’. We actually have NO credible evidence. We’ve seen that it’s possible for humans to ascend to godhood, but it’s pretty humanocentric to assume that only humans can do this. We’ve seen that the human body shape is common enough among races that, as far as we know, do not have their origins linked to those of humanity that having humanlike features does not necessarily indicate human origins… and besides, as you pointed out yourself from mythology, having humanlike features could be because the gods created humanity using their own physical appearance as a template.

is it possible? Well, if you interpret the pre-release interview that stated that the gods are older than humanity (if not by much) to be specifically referring to their arrival on Tyria, than yes. However, the origins and history of the gods remain enough of a mystery that we can’t really rule anything out. Particularly powerful demons that happened to have a shape similar to humans? Elder Dragons from another world that found a way to change their shape? Harpies, or, rather, the species that the harpies were exiled from according to Elonan myths?

From an evidence-based perspective, we have one piece of evidence against the original pantheon being ascended humans that, depending on your interpretation, either debunks the theory or is completely irrelevant to it. We have no evidence for or against any other theory. Literally any other theory you can imagine, as long as it has some credible explanation for why the gods look vaguely human, is, at this point, actually technically stronger.

While we are referencing books, its worth noting the one written by the Apostate also found in the Priory Vault. He describes a model of the world very similar to the vision we saw in Omadd’s machine.

Seeing as this is the same margonite that first informed us that Abaddon’s divinity could be inherited and that Abaddon likely inherited it from some other being at some point in the past, combined with what we saw of Kormir’s ascension, I’d say that the Gods are simply magically powerful individuals but individuals empowered by an inherited divinity that is tied to the very nature of the universe.

Of course, definition of what a god is matters in this but they seem more than just really powerful individuals. In a sense you could say they are aspects of the world. It is the mantle of godhood itself that makes them divine.

This raises another possibility to the gods absence. There very presence on Tyria could have a destabilising effect on the magical balance of the world at this point.

Chrispy.5641:

Why indeed. If Lyssa could live hidden/veiled in the village of Wren, and not force the whole village to go blind, then obviously the Gods could stand before mortals without blinding them. If Lyssa could hide her blinding ‘divinity’ why can’t all the gods?

Because it wasn’t Lyssa’s true form, while the statues show their true appearance – though we only see three of them anymore, two were corrupted and changed.

Dwayna appeared before mortals without blinding them too, but it was under an illusionary form.

Their true forms blind. False forms don’t.

kolompi.1287:

You guys are trying to make sense of a lore that will never work simply because it made sense in the framework of GW1 where we could play only humans and – unless we throw away 90% of that lore – cannot be applied to GW2’s attempts at creating a framework.

Five races, five different belief systems and since arenanet never presented us with a framework in which all of these belief systems would fit, we are left with speculations.
Eternal alchemy? Gods? Spirits? These can all be dismissed as racial beliefs but we would need something that explains how the world of Tyria works, preferably without totally disemboweling GW1 lore and with tons of retcons.

Actually, they do work without throwing out old lore or retcons.

The issue is that ANet is so convinced that they cannot keep gw1 lore as is without it making gw2 lore being human-centric.

Chrispy.5641:

Here’s a question…

If the ‘human’ gods aren’t humans, why do they take human form?

The Greek gods took human form too, but they were descended from Titans.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Well as I explained, in a world that has so much magic, you need to have higher standards when it comes to defining a god.

“Things normal people cannot do” is still “things normal people cannot do”.

Normal people cannot terraform worlds.
Normal people cannot prevent or allow resurrections across the globe (and more?).
Normal people do not rule over afterlives.
Normal people cannot kill people via dance off. :P

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

These primordial monsters are however generally speaking, monsters that only the gods fight, and only the gods can kill. But with the Elder Dragons, we fight them as well, and we have even killed one (which as far as we know, means we’ve killed more Elder Dragons than the human gods).

After a long struggle to weaken the beast in multitude of ways. It is common in fantasy tropes to kill fallen gods.

We did this in GW1 – you were not questioning them being gods then – and killing Zhaitan would be akin to killing a fallen, weakened, god. Because he was weakened and whereas a fallen, weakened god can usually be beaten by a powerful individual or a group of semi-powerful people in fantasy stories, a weakened, starved Elder Dragon being beaten by an entire army equipped with anti-Risen weaponry, and still suffering heavy casualties… In all honesty, that’s not too surprising to me.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Like I said, in a world full of magic, your standards for defining a god need to be higher. Thorn, Zeus, Hades, Odin, they could all do things no living mortal could do on our world. But on Tyria, dozens of players can hurl lightning bolts, and raise armies of undead minions from the soil. You need a little bit more to claim someone is a god.

Standard mortals cannot raise armies of undead minions. Even liches take a lot of time for this – but Dhuum, a fallen god, can just seemingly snap his fingers and bam, 1-3 skeletons out of nothing.
Standard mortals do not live for thousands of years. Of the living, there are only 1 known case, and 1 other hinted case of such a thing.
Standard mortals cannot empower an entire army at once. No mortal has been seen doing such a thing, not even the more powerful ones like Livia, who was seemingly powerless in the face of a risen army.
Standard mortals cannot reshape the world.

The gods can.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The gods knew of the elder dragons, and conveniently left Tyria before they awakened. They basically left us to die. If WE know that the Elder Dragons have wiped out countless generations before them, then surely the gods know as well. What other excuse can there be? They went where the Elder Dragons wouldn’t be able to touch them, or feed on their magic.

Unlike what Leeroy Jethro Gibbs says, coincidences do happen.

Also: the gods left a thousand years before the Elder Dragons woke. They stopped contact three years before the Great Destroyer rose – approximately 50 years before the first Elder Dragon woke.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yeah, and risk their creation being wiped out completely, just like nearly every race before us? I’m sorry, but that argument doesn’t fly. Not even when its Jeff saying it. It makes no sense. It sounds like a weak excuse.

“I don’t care if the writer of the story has said something that proves me wrong, I’ll just handwave the writer’s words away.”

Welcome to fan-fiction land Malafide. Because by cutting away canon lore – which that is, until something in-game says otherwise (and nothing has) – you create fanon lore. Or fan-fiction.

Wanderer.3248:

Chrispy.5641:

Here’s a question…

If the ‘human’ gods aren’t humans, why do they take human form?

The Greek gods took human form too, but they were descended from Titans.

And if I recall, many of the Titans took human form too. Prometheus for example. You know….he created humans, sculpted them from clay, gave then fire, chained to a mountain and had his liver pecked out every day for an eternity? That Prometheus!

An interesting thing to note here is that Prometheus created men in his image (or Zeus’s image, his omnipotent arrogance was starting to show in some of the myths by now). Assuming that Men were created in the Titan’s image, not only are Men descended from the Titans, but so are the Olympian gods.

Greek mythology is a bad example, because nearly everyone of the myths shows the Gods and Humans being the same. They get angry, sad, lonely. They steal from each other, and go to war against themselves. Gods were bound by their fate (God of thunder was always a god of thunder, and will always be a god of thunder. Even Zeus, who claims omnipotence, could not change that), but humans could change their fate as they lived and were only limited by the limits of a man. Even with the limits of a man, humans have managed to best the gods in many of these myths. Gods have been stripped of their power, and humans have ascended to godhood in these myths as well (not too different from Tyrian gods actually)

Tolkien used this idea as he was creating Middle Earth, that Elves and Men were almost similar, but not really. Elves were immortal, and their fate was always to go across the sea and live among the Valar. Men lived short lives, but could change their fate, bound only by the physical limits of their bodies. (This same concept also exists in the dynamic between Angels and men in Semitic religions)

…….

So, what am I getting at here? Humans and the Human Gods are the same. Its just like Greek Mythology. They go to war against themselves and fight among themselves. Feelings of anger, sadness, etc. seem just as powerful in humans as it is in the human gods.

The Human gods though seem to be bound by their own power. Its not like Lyssa and Grenth can say “Lets trade”, and suddenly we have a goddess of death, and a god of illusions. When that book in the Library said that Kormir died in order to become a goddess….well, she did. Her potential as a human was stripped away, replaced with an eternity of being the goddess of truth. She probably no longer human, though she once was.

Humans however…you saw it in GW1, They can change professions, use different weapons, explore and go wherever the hell they dam well please, as long as its within the physical limits of their own bodies. (Norn, Charr, Asura, Tengu, etc. also seem to follow these rules while corrupted Dragon minions don’t. I guess we’ll find out before GW3 comes out just how human Anet wants them to be.)

Does this mean that humans are gods and gods are humans, and that Charr are humans and Humans are Norn? no. I’m probably grasping at straws here, possibly swimming in an ocean of hay, but when someone says that the humans and human gods are just really powerful humans, it doesn’t have to literally mean that the gods are really powerful humans, and continuing to argue that point is going to get us nowhere. I will keep arguing that the human gods were once human or human like though (since we know that at least some of them were).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Yeah, and risk their creation being wiped out completely, just like nearly every race before us? I’m sorry, but that argument doesn’t fly. Not even when its Jeff saying it. It makes no sense. It sounds like a weak excuse.

“I don’t care if the writer of the story has said something that proves me wrong, I’ll just handwave the writer’s words away.”

Welcome to fan-fiction land Malafide. Because by cutting away canon lore – which that is, until something in-game says otherwise (and nothing has) – you create fanon lore. Or fan-fiction.

A retcon is still a retcon, and a hole in the lore is still a hole in the lore though, is it? The way Anet answered that questions seems just a little incomplete, even you have to admit that (and no, It does not create fanon by saying the answer isn’t good enough) The reason they left has to be more complex than just “We meddled too much, so lets let humanity wipe themselves out….or save themselves…or get eaten by the Charr…whatever.”

Chrispy.5641:

Even if you argue that Abaddon’s magic corrupted the Margonites and it was this corruption than gave way to those wings, it could also be assumed that Earth and Nature magic ‘corrupted’ Melandru when she absorbed that power, and grew wings as a result appropriate to the magic she absorbed?

I think the wing evidence falls apart when you expand the lore we’re looking at a little and consider this. With or without the wings, the possibility that (all) the gods could have once been humans is still in play. Their blinding divinity doesn’t really matter at this point, since we know that a human can absorb a god’s power and become a god, alleged divinity and all.

The nature of Dwayna’s and Melandru’s wings – even Grenth’s in the one depiction with them – is of feathers. More akin to harpies, rather than Margonites who’s entire insides have been made ethereal.

It is theoretically plausible that the gods’ appearance was changed, but it was far less drastic than Ewan’s tribe or the Margonites.

And think of this:

If you argue that they can grow wings, or change humans into demons (Margonites), then perhaps their human appearance is because, after becoming a god, they changed their body to be human-like?

There’s really no way to prove such an argument of “did they grow their wings” or “did they make themselves human-like”.

However, at this point, we’re going far away from the original point. You asked:

Chrispy.5641:

Here’s a question…

If the ‘human’ gods aren’t humans, why do they take human form?

And the thing is, they’re not called the human gods because they were humans, or because they take human form. They are called human gods because that’s who worships them in the modern times.

Even if they looked like humans, if only the charr worshiped them, they would be called the ‘charr gods.’

Basically saying “the human gods” is no different than saying “the gods worshiped by humans.”

Edit:

A retcon is still a retcon, and a hole in the lore is still a hole in the lore though, is it? The way Anet answered that questions seems just a little incomplete, even you have to admit that (and no, It does not create fanon by saying the answer isn’t good enough) The reason they left has to be more complex than just “We meddled too much, so lets let humanity wipe themselves out….or save themselves…or get eaten by the Charr…whatever.”

No one said anything about a retcon.

And this doesn’t change the fact that the gods left in year 0; 1120 years before the first Elder Dragon awoke, and 1078 years before the first Elder Dragon activity.

If they were leaving due to fear of the Elder Dragons, then either:

1. They left very early.
2. There was ED activity in Year 0.
3. They should have remained longer.

Only communication ceased after Nightfall. Their presence was gone – with only exception being rare cases – for a thousand years.

So where’s the plot hole? Where’s the retcon?

People seem to forget this simple fact. They went silent after GW1. They did not leave after GW1. There is a huge difference. And when you think of it as that (stop communications) rather than the common misinterpretation (leaving), then what Jeff Grubb said is not ‘missing’ anything at all.

They left because of their and Abaddon’s actions in 1 BE/Year 0. They stopped communicating when Abaddon no longer threatened Tyria.

Chrispy.5641:

Greek mythology is a bad example, because nearly everyone of the myths shows the Gods and Humans being the same. They get angry, sad, lonely. They steal from each other, and go to war against themselves. Gods were bound by their fate (God of thunder was always a god of thunder, and will always be a god of thunder. Even Zeus, who claims omnipotence, could not change that), but humans could change their fate as they lived and were only limited by the limits of a man. Even with the limits of a man, humans have managed to best the gods in many of these myths. Gods have been stripped of their power, and humans have ascended to godhood in these myths as well (not too different from Tyrian gods actually)

Actually, from what I recall of the Greek myths, there was a certain amount of choice over which domain each god has. One of the myths relates to how dominion over the sky, sea, and air was divided after the Olympians gained control of the world. Zeus basically called dibs on the sky, since he was the most powerful and it was viewed as the most prestigious. Poseidon then claimed the sea, and Hades was a bit miffed to be left with the earth and underworld that had been rejected by the other two.

Particularly given that the dreary reputation of the location meant that he needed to resort to kidnapping to acquire a consort…

draxynnic.3719:

Chrispy.5641:

Greek mythology is a bad example, because nearly everyone of the myths shows the Gods and Humans being the same. They get angry, sad, lonely. They steal from each other, and go to war against themselves. Gods were bound by their fate (God of thunder was always a god of thunder, and will always be a god of thunder. Even Zeus, who claims omnipotence, could not change that), but humans could change their fate as they lived and were only limited by the limits of a man. Even with the limits of a man, humans have managed to best the gods in many of these myths. Gods have been stripped of their power, and humans have ascended to godhood in these myths as well (not too different from Tyrian gods actually)

Actually, from what I recall of the Greek myths, there was a certain amount of choice over which domain each god has. One of the myths relates to how dominion over the sky, sea, and air was divided after the Olympians gained control of the world. Zeus basically called dibs on the sky, since he was the most powerful and it was viewed as the most prestigious. Poseidon then claimed the sea, and Hades was a bit miffed to be left with the earth and underworld that had been rejected by the other two.

Particularly given that the dreary reputation of the location meant that he needed to resort to kidnapping to acquire a consort…

Greek Mythology has things in it that contradicts itself all the time. This is because there are many different authors and philosophers that thought up different conflicting cosmologies.

The Concept of fate in Greek was called Moira. Its a kind of power that runs parallel to the gods and cannot be changed once determined. Even Zeus cannot change fate. His mortal son was going to die. Zeus foresaw that it was going to happen, but even he, and his arrogant ‘omnipotent’ self couldn’t do a thing about it. (Actually, in the Illiad…. it says that he could, but doing so would set a precedent that would allow the other gods to do the same with their sons who were also predetermined to die in that battle. Looks like being king of everything doesn’t actually mean you get special privileges. And greek mythology being what it is, other accounts of this event say a dozen different things)

There are myths saying that Zeus actually commanded the Moirai and all of fate, which conflicts with this and many other stories. Other stories still say that the Fates are from a time much older than Zeus and out of his control, and it was already predetermined that Zeus would become king of sky and thunder after he defeated the Titans and there was no changing that. Some writings said that even gods feared the fates. Other ancient writings said that even Zeus must respect their power. Greek Mythology conflicts with itself, because some writers say that Zeus is the ultimate power in the universe, while other writers say that Zeus is an arrogant [insert any expletive here] that isn’t actually as powerful as he says.

Humans however…..Some stories say that humans are bound by fate, same as the gods (except or including the king of everything), but there are a few stories conflict this and show example of humans going against their predetermined fate and doing things that even the gods couldn’t do. And if anything, their fates are always more complex than the gods. (greek mythology was kind of a bad example all around. It conflicts itself with literally every myth/story you read)

one last interesting to note about Greek Mythology is that the concept of a god, the quality that distinguishes them from men, is their power, otherwise they were pretty much human in every other respect.

So, from what we know about some of the human gods….what actually distinguishes Kormir from any other human?…..Power. that’s about it. (everything else in my last post was pretty much speculation on my part, so write a post disagreeing with that if you want)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And this doesn’t change the fact that the gods left in year 0; 1120 years before the first Elder Dragon awoke, and 1078 years before the first Elder Dragon activity.

If they were leaving due to fear of the Elder Dragons, then either:

1. They left very early.
2. There was ED activity in Year 0.
3. They should have remained longer.

Only communication ceased after Nightfall. Their presence was gone – with only exception being rare cases – for a thousand years.

So where’s the plot hole? Where’s the retcon?

The plot hole is that the gods knew that the Elder Dragons existed. They left us a scroll (according to Ogden) with the names of the Elder Dragons. So why would they first bring humans to a world inhabited by these monsters, and then leave before the dragons awoke, thus leaving us to be dragon food? That is a plot hole.

Did the gods know when the Elder Dragons would wake up? And if they did, would they leave at the last minute, or more than a thousand years before they awake? Frankly, if the Elder Dragons are a threat to them, then sooner is always better than later. Besides, their presence on the world (as powerful magical beings) might actually speed up the awakening of the Elder Dragons, but I can’t say that for sure. All I can say is:

• The gods knew previous races had been wiped out by the Elder Dragons
• The gods knew that the Elder Dragons would rise again, and kill us all
• The gods brought/created humans to/on Tyria regardless, and then left.
• They left us to die basically. Something here does not make sense.

That ‘something’ might be that the gods are confident (or at least hoping) that we’ll be able to handle it.

They may or may not have plans to swoop in at the last minute if needed, but Jeff’s line basically indicates that the gods aren’t intervening because they don’t think we need their help to survive. Sure, it might be easier for us if they did help out, but I think they’re looking for humanity to demonstrate that it doesn’t need the gods propping them up to survive, even against powerful enemies.

Chrispy.5641:

Here’s a question…

If the ‘human’ gods aren’t humans, why do they take human form?

Because appearing as a eldritch tentacle abominations might not be conducive with being worshiped by anyone but crazy cults.

dsslive.8473:

The human gods can most certainly be humans that have grown into incredible strenghts, the same way Kormir became a goddess.

Possible, but I’m not sure how. I can see how the Elder Dragons could have come about, given their apparent natural disposition towards absorbing magic and extremely long lives. But humans would firstly need to do something about that annoying mortality, and as far as I know Komir was only able to absorb Abby’s power because of some gift or something bestowed on her, which I interpret as meaning humans aren’t naturally disposed towards containing large amounts of magic. Still it could work, but it would have to require a slightly more complicated explanation than a couple of people getting really good at using magic. Also you’d have to ignore the concept of ‘divinity’ and assume the gods aren’t divine just magically powerful (thus assume the Asura / Charr perspective).

Tuomir.1830:

Consider timeline. If they have the same father, that would make Menzies at least over 1800 years old by the time of GW1, as Balthazar is said to have entered Tyria with the head of his father, and a beheaded father hardly makes more children

Well from my understanding of Greek mythology, standard biological rules don’t always need to apply. It all depends on how fantastic Anet feels like going.

Chrispy.5641:

So, does anyone have any evidence that the human gods aren’t humans?

Nothing other than the fact that they’re god-like entities. But to answer your question, since we know little of history of the human gods before they entered Tyria, we don’t know if they were human.

Really intresting what you all have said!
I just love the Human gods !

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The plot hole is that the gods knew that the Elder Dragons existed. They left us a scroll (according to Ogden) with the names of the Elder Dragons. So why would they first bring humans to a world inhabited by these monsters, and then leave before the dragons awoke, thus leaving us to be dragon food? That is a plot hole.

You presume that the Six Gods knew of the dragons before bringing humanity.

They left long before the dragons awoke. Perhaps the Six Gods didn’t think the dragons would even awaken again. After all, the Bloodstone was regulating magic in the world well enough at the time.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Frankly, if the Elder Dragons are a threat to them, then sooner is always better than later.

Who says that the Elder Dragons are a threat to the Six Gods?

Other than an asura who was beyond egotistical, narcissistic, and pretentious even by asura standards, who couldn’t possibly know of the existence of the Elder Dragons, or the fact they consume magic, yet somehow wrote a book on the fact.

The Forgotten are now once more reaffirmed to have come from the Mists. The Forgotten’s magic is immune to the Elder Dragons’ corruption – and can even revert it (partially). Who’s to say that the Six Gods, whom are said to have brought the Forgotten (though this is still up to debate), and who definitely come from the Mists, do not hold similar magic?

Perhaps the Forgotten and the Six Gods’ magic, being non-native to Tyria, results in being immune to corruption.

Which would explain why the temple of Grenth and certain statues of Grenth are showing little to no signs of Zhaitan’s corruption.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

• The gods knew previous races had been wiped out by the Elder Dragons
• The gods knew that the Elder Dragons would rise again, and kill us all
• The gods brought/created humans to/on Tyria regardless, and then left.
• They left us to die basically. Something here does not make sense.

Fixing for you:

• The gods knew that the Elder Dragons had existed; they likely knew that they wiped out most races, but also (likely) knew that five+ races survived, including Glint.
• The gods may or may not have known that the Elder Dragons would rise again; and if they did rise again, the outcome is unpredictable, due to Glint’s existence from the beginning (rather than being cleansed of corruption after the Elder Dragons have already begun ravaging the world)
• The gods likely had no indication of the Elder Dragons’ existence prior to bringing humans, but left them on Tyria knowing of the Elder Dragons’ past existence.
• They left the world with individuals and objects that knew of, told of, and potentially could be used against the Elder Dragons (Forgotten, Glint, Scroll of the Five True Gods, Bloodstone, perhaps more).

Chrispy.5641:

So, what am I getting at here? Humans and the Human Gods are the same. Its just like Greek Mythology. They go to war against themselves and fight among themselves. Feelings of anger, sadness, etc. seem just as powerful in humans as it is in the human gods.

While I agree that the Greek gods were far more like humans than (for instance) an Abrahamic God, there was still a gulf. Not every Greek hero became immortal.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

His generosity was only matched by his namesake, the ocean, which was both his dominion and said to be the physical manifestation of his blue wings.

So yes, Abaddon’s body was changed. But he wasn’t “merely human”.

Well, yeah. He sounds more like a largos deity than a human one.

Wanderer.3248:

Chrispy.5641:

So, what am I getting at here? Humans and the Human Gods are the same. Its just like Greek Mythology. They go to war against themselves and fight among themselves. Feelings of anger, sadness, etc. seem just as powerful in humans as it is in the human gods.

While I agree that the Greek gods were far more like humans than (for instance) an Abrahamic God, there was still a gulf. Not every Greek hero became immortal.

Not every Greek hero needed to become immortal in the literal sense, because their stories are what made them immortal (not so literally), more so than the supposedly more important gods who play small supporting roles in almost all of the stories from the time period, which is also not too much different than the entire story from GW1, where the Gods did exactly one noticeable thing during the story of all three games.

Depends on what stage of the mythohistory you’re in. The gods play extremely central roles in the early myths, such as the war between the Olympians and the Titans. As the stories approach the ‘present day’ at the time the myths were being told, the gods fade from direct prominence.

Which only makes the comparison more apt.