Guild Wars 2

From this recent patch, we learn from the Priory that each dragon has two spheres of power/influence which they rule over. Mordremoth is “Plants” and “Mind”, while Zhaitan is “Shadows” and “Death”.

Would anybody like to speculate on the specific spheres of the other dragons?

I think Jormag fit the “mind” section much better than Mordremoth. Mordremoth doesn’t seem to be able to affect being’s mind other than Sylvari.

Also where did it say such thing? I finished the new LS but couldn’t remember.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Also where did it say such thing? I finished the new LS but couldn’t remember.

It;s an ambient conversation when you first enter the Priory instance. The teacher is telling her students it in the main classroom.

Randulf.7614:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Also where did it say such thing? I finished the new LS but couldn’t remember.

It;s an ambient conversation when you first enter the Priory instance. The teacher is telling her students it in the main classroom.

To expand, she’s citing a partially damaged text supposedly laid down by the human gods.

I’m not sure I feel comfortable speculating… I would never have guessed that “shadow” was one of the two prime spheres of Zhaitan.

If I was to pick two to apply to Zhaitan, than while I can’t say for certain that I would have picked one as ‘shadow’, it wouldn’t have been entirely out of my mind either. Zhaitan’s actual spheres of influence are obfuscated a bit in gameplay outside of Arah story because, unlike the other dragons, Zhaitan corrupted a population that was already powerful in magical knowledge, and thus Zhaitan’s balance of forces reflects Orr’s magical predilections as much as, if not more than, Zhaitan’s own. This is in contrast to the other dragons that mostly seem to corrupt victims that weren’t magically trained to begin with, and thus any powers they have came from the dragon.

However, the big pools of darkness and such that Zhaitan creates in the final fight are indicative that darkness/shadow may be part of his inherent affinities, rather than something that he picked up by corrupting a nation of dead magic-users.

Honestly, I would have thought Mordremoth to be will and plants while Jormag to be mind and ice – close but still different concepts. But I guess mind is Mordremoth.

Going off of Mordy and Zhaitan’s spheres, one of the two spheres is how the dragons’ described when they’re called the “Elder <something> Dragon”

Which means we have half of the spheres already:

Fire, Ice, Water, Crystal, Death, and Plant

The other spheres for both Zhaitan and Mordremoth don’t make much sense to me. So trying to guess the spheres for the other four seem fruitless. If I try to tie Mordy to mind, the same kind of connection doesn’t fit for Zhaitan and shadows, and clashes with Jormag having the same kind of connection to mind.

If this is all part of a greater ploy by ANet to tie the 6 Dragons with the domains ruled over by the 6 Gods, then we can probably expect the spheres of influence to be as follows:

Fire, Ice, Water, Air/Lightning, Earth/Crystal, Death, Life, Plants/Nature, Mind, Shadows, Knowledge/Truth, War.

This is taken from the traditional spheres ruled over by the Six Gods:

Dwayna – Air/Lightning + Life
Melandru – Earth/Crystal + Plants/Nature
Balthazar – Fire + War
Grenth – Ice + Death
Lyssa – Mind + Shadows (as Lyssa was the patron deity of Assassins back in GW1, and I presume she holds a similar role now for Thieves)
Kormir – Knowledge + Water?

There’s some overlap between Grenth and Kormir since human Water Elementalists typically call upon Grenth when switching to Water Attunement, even though technically ice and water would appear to be two separate spheres (as indicated by the fact that Abaddon was the God of Water, and Jormag and S seem to hold separate powers.)

Assassins prayed to both Grenth and Lyssa, actually.

Kormir is Knowledge, Order, and Spirit. Never tied to water.

Which gives me a consideration…

Jormag has ties to the Mists – even in GW1. The Nornbear’s skills were mostly spirit-related (all but 1).

Charging Spirit
Shattered Spirit
Spirit Roar
Spirit Senses
Spirit World Retreat (Note: the “spirit world” and “spirit realm” are used interchangeably with the afterlife parts of the Mists)

And in GW2, we see him with his interest in the Mists, he consumed a Spirit of the Wild (Owl), possibly 4 (Ox, Wolverine, Eagle), tried to do so to a second-fifth (Minotaur).

What if Jormag’s second sphere is that? Spirit.

Which would make:
Mordremoth: Mind + Plants
Zhaitan: Shadow + Death
Jormag: Spirit/Soul + Ice
Primordus: ? + Fire
Kralkatorrik: ? + Crystal
Scleritethin: ??? + Water(?)

Of course, the entire attempt of tying the DSD to water is purely hypothetical. We know it corrupts water, but Primordus is the Fire Dragon not for corrupting fire, but for its corruption resulting in fire (it’s been stated that if Primordus were to corrupt living beings, they’d be encased in rock and their body slowly liquified into lava – similar to icebrood with ice). So it’s possible that there isn’t an Elder Dragon tied to water at all.

Just a thought.

Which that would tie Jormag into Grenth and Kormir, in a way.

I think when we are talking about the two speheres of influence for the Elder Dragons we’re basically talking about how the dragon himself corrupts or lures victims into corruption and the physical manifestation/domain of the corruption itself.

If we look at Mordremoth he’s Mind and Plants which can be see by him corrupting Aerin and Scaret through their minds and them having plant biology.

If we look at Zaihatan he’s Shadow and Death. I believe shadow implies more towards diversion or and dillusion than illusions themselves, similar to have how Thieves use the Shadow Arts to conceal themselves and provide diversions. Obviously the 2nd influence is Death which can be seen by The Risen being undead. Its possible that in order for Zaihtain to corrupt, his corruption must kill first then raise to become the Risen.

For Kralkatorric, we only have information on the corruption from The Brand which imo doesn’t give us much to go on regarding the first sphere of influence (unless I’m missing something on how he corrupts others). The 2nd sphere of influence is Crystal.

Primordus iirc creates the destroyers from rock and lava. Thus it is possible that his first sphere of influence is creating life. His second sphere is Fire.

Jormag lures in his corrupted with promises of power. I think Konig is onto something, since Jormag feeds off other’s will and desire for more power. Will and Spirit could be correlated so in a sense you can say that his corrruption is one that corrupts one’s Spirit. The 2nd sphere of influence would be Ice as can be seen by the Icebrood being encased in ice.

Deep Sea Dragon we know next to nothing about other than he presumably corrupts the Water itself to create minion (not sure of this, honestly)

That’s my oppinion on the idea behind the two spheres of influence. Feel free to criticize or even further this theory. When you look back on the PS before killing Zhaitan, him being associated with Shadow kind of makes sense at least to me.

One thing that’s worth noting is that Kralkatorrik is often described as creating the Dragonbrand with its breath. So if we’re looking at corruption vectors, than something wind- or breath-related might be appropriate.

Personally, though, I think there might be a chaos aspect in there. A lot of Kralkatorrik-related effects look similar to mesmer ones, and we do seem to be looking at a structure where each dragon embodies a physical (plant, shadow, ice, fire, crystal, water) and metaphysical (mind, death, spirit, life?, chaos, ???, PROFIT!) aspect. Kralkatorrik’s mind in EoD is described as a storm of chaos, so it seems fitting.

At the risk of losing the metaphysical aspect, ‘storm’ could also work. This ties in the stormy state of Kralkatorrik’s mind and how Kralkatorrik’s “breath” created the Dragonbrand (it was actually the storm that Kralkatorrik brought with it).

More than breath, but golden fiery breath if memory serves me right. However, air would make sense, given that Glint’s aspects are all air based, and the whole corruption through his breath. And how he has such a strong tie to lightning himself (the Brandstorm).

And if memory serves me right, Eir mentions Jormag corrupting the Sons of Svanir’s souls in one of the early PS steps dealing with them… Or was it Seiran in chapter 4 for Priory… I had always taken it as metaphorical for how their minds change, but maybe not.

I am doubtful that Primordus would be life. All/Most Elder Dragons can make living minions from stone – the Dragonspawn, the Shatterers, for example.

Well that kinda puts a stake in the theory about Primordus and life, but so far what I can see is:

Zaihtan: Shadows – Death
Mordremoth: Mind – Plant
Jormag: Spirit – Ice
Kralkatorric: Chaos/Lightning – Crystal
Primordus: ? – Fire/Lava
DSD: ? – Water/Tentacles?

The first being a method of corruption (shadow being more akin to deception) and the second being the physical after effects of corruption.

I really don’t see a tie between Kralkatorrik and chaos. The only relation beyond purple fire and purple beams used by average branded (which is not much of a relation) is a Chaos Storm like effect used by the Branded Plants at Lowland Burns (where the Shatterer lands). And I would look more to purple being a common theme amongst Elder Dragons (some late areas of Orr are purple and quite a lot of Mordrem vines give off purple mist/glow), and rather the chaos part of the chaos storm-like effect, look towards the more common part: storm.

Branded show up in lightning strikes when spawning. The Brandstorm that is permanently above the Dragonbrand makes Branded go crazy with energy. The lightning strikes of the Dragonbrand can corrupt (seen in Iron Marches). Glint’s aspect relate to air magic, including lightning.

There are so few ties to chaos for Kralkatorrik. But so many to air/lightning.

Well to be honest I didn’t know that lightning/air there corrupted. I was sure about those ties to chaos for Kralkatorrik which is why I put it as an influence. I’ll edit my previous post

Now noone control spheres {death, shadow} – so energy assosiated with that return to world, so death, shadows getting stronger? or other spheres have more magic thanks to their EDs that consume magic freed from Zhai’ control. Isn’t first one to the table with meal Morde? or all ED’s consume it equaly.

What when we deal with Morde? magic shifted into 4 spheres, freed, w/o any controller/consumer. Plots: nothing happen 1, spheres mix and new controllers appear example {death, mind} / {plant /shadows} / {death, plant} / {shadows, mind} 2, new spheres and new controllers appear {new, new} / { new, mind} / etc.. If it would be something new, it is like opportunity for huge changes: new spells, magic that we develope, new professions, new artifacts.

@Xukavi: there is a chance I am mis-remembering so it’d be best to go to Iron Marches todouble check, though in EoD, it is his breath that corrupts and he uses lightning personally in attacking Ebonhawke.

@Mem: I think that situation is exactly what the Apostate warns about in his ‘The Map of the All’ book, when he said that if the Six bodies break their push-and-pupl balance, the world would tilt and everyone would fall off. That is most likely a metaphor for the world ending though.

Kralkatorrik-Crystal and Storm

It carries storm, lightning and could turn into a sandstorm.

Primordus-Fire and Earth

It’s quite obvious.

Modelling Kralkatorrik on what we know of Glint is probably a reasonable approach to take. On this approach, I would point out that Glint is a powerful mesmer, which draws another connection between Kralkatorrik and Glint. On the other hand, Kralkatorrik created/corrupted Glint in order to use her mental powers on its behalf, which implies that Kralkatorrik does not itself have such powers.

The Aspects probably give a hint as to what is fundamental to Glint, and thus to Kralkatorrik – sun, wind, and lightning. The ‘sun’ part isn’t really conducive to a storm aspect, so this could be something Glint picked up afterwards to distinguish herself from her master (and move closer to Dwayna, perhaps?). On the other hand, Kralkatorrik’s breath beign ‘golden’ and ‘fiery’… sounds similar to sunbeams and/or sun aspect effects to me!

So maybe what’s actually going on here is that Kralkatorrik’s domains are sky and crystal. Thus encompassing storms, but also including the sun and other aspects of calmer weather as well?

(Incidentally, I just had the amusing thought of what Ela Mackay might think of this discussion. Of course, we’re all Magisters here, right? Apart from the odd Lightbringer, that is…)

draxynnic.3719:

Modelling Kralkatorrik on what we know of Glint is probably a reasonable approach to take. On this approach, I would point out that Glint is a powerful mesmer, which draws another connection between Kralkatorrik and Glint. On the other hand, Kralkatorrik created/corrupted Glint in order to use her mental powers on its behalf, which implies that Kralkatorrik does not itself have such powers.

The Aspects probably give a hint as to what is fundamental to Glint, and thus to Kralkatorrik – sun, wind, and lightning. The ‘sun’ part isn’t really conducive to a storm aspect, so this could be something Glint picked up afterwards to distinguish herself from her master (and move closer to Dwayna, perhaps?). On the other hand, Kralkatorrik’s breath beign ‘golden’ and ‘fiery’… sounds similar to sunbeams and/or sun aspect effects to me!

So maybe what’s actually going on here is that Kralkatorrik’s domains are sky and crystal. Thus encompassing storms, but also including the sun and other aspects of calmer weather as well?

(Incidentally, I just had the amusing thought of what Ela Mackay might think of this discussion. Of course, we’re all Magisters here, right? Apart from the odd Lightbringer, that is…)

Pretty much, and it’s why that it was a pair with the DSD. The DSD lives in deep ocean.

So if Kralkatorrik is “Sky”, the the Pale Tree’s vision, the sky, the sunlight and the crystals might be hinting of its power?

The vision didn’t really say ‘sky’ to me.

@Konig: I remember lightning bolts hitting the branded areas but dunno if they resulted in Branded being spawned/creatures being corrupted (Shatterer skills does do this though). Indeed though he corrupted beings during his flight with his golden breath.

The way I see the two influences is that one refers to the method of corruption or spreading the corruption and the second refers to the process undergone by those corrupted. Therefor we have the following:

Zaihtan: Uses Shadows as a method of corruption. Here shadows would be akin to illusions or mind tricks to trick those he corrupts before corrupting them. Death would be the process undergone before becoming Risen

Mordremoth: His method of corruption would be his ability to get into your mind as he seemingly did with Ceara and Aerin as both were said to have exhibited signs of battling a voice in their head.

Kralkatorric: His method of corruption that we know of so far was his golden fiery breath and possibly the chaos/lightning storms we are seeing in The Brand (One of the Shatterer skills has him use lightning to spawn Branded and deal dmg)
. The beings corrupted undergo crystallization of the body.

Jormag: He promises power to his converts which can be interpreted as corrupting their Spirits. He’s also been known to have gone for the spirits of the wild and trying to enter the spirit world/mists. Beings that are corrupted by him eventually undergo freezing until they turn into Icebrood.

Primordus: We haven’t actually witnessed his corruption other than the creation of the destroyers. It’s possible that he doesn’t corrupt living beings but he creates his corrupted being in the form of the Destroyers that he creates. This would lead to the popular believe that his spheres of influence are both Earth and Fire. Earth would be the method of corruption (he corrupts the earth itself) and the process undergone is fire which results in molten beings which are the destroyers.

DSD: We know pretty much nothing about other than he’s somewhere in deep sea and can corrupt water itself and his corrupted have tentacles (this is according to the wiki). Like Primordus this could indicate something like him corrupting water instead of earth and the corruption process undergone creates tentacles though this seems quite silly honestly.

I find the argument of Primordus being rock and fire both believable – we have been told in an interview that if Primordus were to corrupt living beings, though we don’t see such a case in-game, they would be encased in rock and slowly liquified. But if we look at the other four we know about (Zhaitan, Mordy, and our guesses on Jormag and Kralkatorrik) then they’re all non-physical in the second sphere (shadow, mind, soul, sky). Kralkatorrik would match somewhat, but it’s still a far cry between rock and those four.

Simply corrupting rocks is not really means of corruption – otherwise, Zhaitan would be corpses and (un)death or the like, not shadow.

I agree it’s too soon to be sure for the DSD, since all we know is (one of) what it corrupted. Which would be like saying ‘norn’ for Jormag.

We could look at it in a different way in which we have dragons that seek to corrupt other living beings and others that create their corrupted minions.

Mordremoth and Jormag fit the bill for seeking to corrupt. Meanwhile Primordus and I guess DSD fit towards creating instead of trying to corrupt living beings.

That leaves Kralkatorric and Zaihtan whom we’ve seen both corrupt living beings and create their minions (if you would say that creation can include corrupting corpses to create minions). You could sort of put Zaihtan towards seeking to corrupt living as well as dead beings. Kralkatorric could be seen as creating the Branded so veers towards creating his minions. We could also say that Kralkatorric has influence over air (which in GW usually encompases lightning) thus having the elder dragons covering the elemental magics as well.

I know this has been discussed in the past and we came to the conclusion that we can’t classify them as that but now we have more information so we could revisit that topic.

Mordremoth seems to do both, but there are far more minions that are created rather than corrupted. Unless you’re going to argue that terragriffs were plant-like colocals before being Mordrem or something.

We know that Primordus can corrupt living beings.

Jormag and Kralkatorrik have both corrupted beings and created.

Zhaitan has corrupted beings, but is unclear if he’s created – unless you count ‘sewn together corpses’ as creating. And we know he corrupts living beings and plants.

‘what they corrupt’ is not very reliable since it seems to be ‘anything and everything, if they choose to.’

I’m not exactly arguing saying some Elder Dragons can or can’t create/corrupt to make their minions. What I’m saying is that we might have preference of each Elder Dragon. We can observe the following:

Jormag: Chooses to corrupt other living beings as seen by the Sons of Svanir. Those fully corrupt end up encased in Ice. Even so, there are still creations.

Zaihtan: Chooses to corrupt living or dead beings as seen with the Risen.

Mordremoth: There’s no denying that the further into the jungle we go we’re seeing more Mordrem that resemble actual creatures. It is possible that he creates the Mordrem as well as corrupts other living beings into the Mordrem akin to Jormag’s corrupting resulting in being encased in Ice as well as Kralkatorric’s Branding of minions.

Kralkatorric: All we know so far is that his breath has corrupted everything living into becoming the Branded. All I can say about him creating minions would be the origin of The Shatterer to be his creation rather than an actual corrupted dragon each time.

Primordus: Do we have an account of a time when he corrupted a living being? So far all I’ve seen is him creating Destroyers.

DSD: All we have on him is that he corrupts the water creating minions with tentacles.

Slowpokeking.8720:

So if Kralkatorrik is “Sky”, the the Pale Tree’s vision, the sky, the sunlight and the crystals might be hinting of its power?

Indirectly – the Pale Tree’s vision seems to be related to Glint, the Zephyrites, and Glint’s egg.

Xukavi.4320:

I’m not exactly arguing saying some Elder Dragons can or can’t create/corrupt to make their minions. What I’m saying is that we might have preference of each Elder Dragon.

Though I don’t think this holds any form of power over the spheres of influence. And I agree – I’ve recognized this since, about 2 years ago.

Xukavi.4320:

Primordus: Do we have an account of a time when he corrupted a living being? So far all I’ve seen is him creating Destroyers.

Not sure if it was this thread or another recent one, but I’ve had to point his out a lot recently.

It was an interview. Here

Regarding Kralkatorrik, I think our best indication of his spheres of influence, is Glint. She can read minds, is made of crystal, and seems able to create a pocket dimension inside a grain of sand. This seems very much like the domain of illusions to me: Crystals, bending light, hiding things from sight.

As I mentioned in another topic, I think we shouldn’t look at the Elder Dragons as exact opposites of the gods. The gods after all have replaced one another multiple times, while the elder dragons seem rather static. Rather, I present an alternative view: They are simply dark versions of the same kinds of magic. They are the ways in which the same magic that the gods use, can be abused for foul intentions.

For example, Mordremoth and Melandru are not equals, but their spheres have some overlap. Mordremoth is plant life, but he is more like an invasive weed, life at the cost of other life. Where as Melandru is the diversity of all life. The positive side of the same sphere.

Similarly, Primordus is fire and destruction. Where as Balthazar is fire and the glory of battle. There is no glory in the destruction caused by Primordus. It is senseless and violent. Balthazar is the exact opposite side of how this sphere can be used for good. It is interesting to note that Balthazar’s brother Menzies, was also called the Lord of Destruction. Perhaps another example of the same sphere being used for evil.

So the Elder Dragons in my opinion are not the opposites of the gods, but an example of how the same magic can be corrupted, and used for foul things.

I don’t think Glint is an appropriate use. Some of her abilities seem unique to herself. She seems to have a ‘bright’ variation of Kralk’s crystals and the aspects, but some more.

Rather than the telepathy and pocket dimensions, look at what remained after her death: air magic (aspects) and crystals.

Because we see nothing of facets, illusions, pocket dimensions, or telepathy with Kralkatorrik or the Branded.

As to the concept of ‘dragons are dark versions of the gods’ magic’ fails just as much as any other ‘Dragon=God’ theory. You work perfectly for Balthazar and Melandru, but try extending it to all gods of all generations.

You’re definitely lacking a Dwayna or Dhuum/Grenth, presuming you tie DSD to knowledge, Kralkatorrik to illusion (no real reason to believe either), and have Zhaitan and Jormag left.

Dhuum can’t fit Jormag, but neither can Dwayna.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Regarding Kralkatorrik, I think our best indication of his spheres of influence, is Glint. She can read minds, is made of crystal, and seems able to create a pocket dimension inside a grain of sand. This seems very much like the domain of illusions to me: Crystals, bending light, hiding things from sight.

Just a small note, Glint isn’t made of Crystal. She is flesh and bone with parts of her that have been corrupted by crystals (see attachement)

We also learned from destiny’s Edge that this idea that her lair is within one grain of sand wasn’t correct but in fact her lair wasn’t in one grain of sand, but that it was in all of the grains of sand.

We don’t know enough about kralkatorrik either to attribute him the same powers glint had, as she was corrupted it’s fully possible she retained some of her powers from before the became Kralkatorrik’s Champion.

And i could be completely wrong in this, but Snaff manages to take control over the dragon’s mind, which to me seems like something you wouldn’t do when said type of fighting is supposed to be his strenghts. What w eknow of Kralkattorik is that he corrupts by transforming flesh into stone and crystal, creates minions out of stone and crystal , can become a sandstorm and has been associated with lightning. Not to mention the Golden breath that made the dragonbrand. It’s far too soon to assume that Kralkatorrik is gifted with mesmeric abilities, other than the color purple it really has no base so far.

Currently I hesitate to make any call whether Kralkatorrik has telepathy. But it’s a power that is certainly not unique among the Elder Dragons. I think you (Konig) are right in assuming that Kralk’s powers would more likely be a darker twisted form of some of Glint’s powers (but not all). And perhaps the Zephyrites are also a good clue to the extend of the powers that Glint embodies. How many of those powers are her own, or gifted by her master, is hard to say. But we know that when we fight Glint in GW1, she does use crystal powers.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Crystal_Bonds
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Crystal_Haze
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Crystal_Hibernation
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jagged_Crystal_Skin

So I think you are correct Konig. Kralkatorrik probably uses a dark form of air magic (lightning for example) and (corrupted) crystals.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As to the concept of ‘dragons are dark versions of the gods’ magic’ fails just as much as any other ‘Dragon=God’ theory. You work perfectly for Balthazar and Melandru, but try extending it to all gods of all generations.

You’re definitely lacking a Dwayna or Dhuum/Grenth, presuming you tie DSD to knowledge, Kralkatorrik to illusion (no real reason to believe either), and have Zhaitan and Jormag left.

Dhuum can’t fit Jormag, but neither can Dwayna.

You misunderstand me. I’m not saying they are direct mirrors of each other. I’m saying that all use some shared spheres of magic, but the dragons use darker versions of that same magic. Any sphere of magic that the gods use for good, the elder dragons can use for evil. That is why I think we see some similarities between magic of the gods and that of the Elder Dragons.

It’s actually likely that Kralkatorrik doesn’t have Glint’s power of mass mindreading, since Glint’s specific purpose was to use that ability on behalf of her master. In fact, if Kralkatorrik had it itself, it’s entirely possible that Kralkatorrik might have come to its own accord with the sapient races – after all, it doesn’t need to have something else’s control broken before it can make up its own mind.

(Which would, incidentally, make for an interesting twist well, well down the track, if it turns out part of Snaff’s mind is still in Kralkatorrik’s…)

But still… not direct mirrors, but mirrors as a whole. Even so, though, I’m not convinced it will turn out that the dragons span exactly the same range as the gods. A lot of overlap, yes, but I don’t think everything in the domains of the gods have a direct counterpart among the dragons, even allowing for the unknown Seadrag.

One issue is we’re not completely set on the spheres of influence of the gods. Their nature varied somewhat during the creation of guild wars 1 so its hard to say if there were, to say, off-screen changes also. The Eye of the North expansion was made with Guild Wars 2 in mind and I think the lore given in Eye of the North is likely the most consistent with Guild wars 2.

The spheres of influence of the gods from the labels of their facets.
Melandru – Creation
Balthazar – Destruction
Dwayna – Existence
Grenth – Death
Lyssa – Illusions
Kormir – Spirit

From early in GW1 the god’s patronage:
Melandru – Earth
Balthazar – Fire
Dwayna – Air
Grenth – Water
Lyssa – Energy
Abaddon – Shadow I guess. Didn’t exist at the time.

However during the nightfall campaign, there were also mixed up a bit from that.

Melandru – Nature and Earth
Balthazar – War and Fire
Dwayna – Life and Air
Grenth – Death and Ice
Lyssa – Beauty and Illusion
Abaddon – Water and Secrets

Now, there’s an obvious problem with all this, there is no patron of “mind”. Also we know that the patronage can be transitory because when Abaddon is defeated, Lyssa becomes the patron of water. Kormir becomes the goddess of truth and knowledge and has nothing to do with water.

Perhaps there are many spheres. The six positions in the eternal alchemy may be constant but the spheres can pass through them like constellations in the zodiac.

Its also a possibility that the priory is totally wrong about the nature of the spheres or the dragons, but I feel like it was a purposeful lore drop, and I hope they wouldn’t give us a lore drop and then claim it to be lies, that would be rude.

Here’s my wild guess on the dragons.
Kralkatorrik – Energy, Illusions
Primordius – Fire, Destruction
Jormag – Ice, Spirit
Zhaitan – Shadows, Death
Mordremoth – Mind?, Creation
Spoopy – Water, Existence

I think there are indeed many spheres, and not all of them need to be embodied by a god or an elder dragon. The only clear pattern I see so far, is that Elder Dragons use magic for evil, and may share some corrupted versions of some of the spheres that the gods embody.

Grenth wasn’t water, though he was the patron of water elementalists it should be remembered that almost all water magic skills were ice; even Water Tridant was actually three shards of ice being tosses out.

I can’t see Abaddon tied to shadows at all, honestly.

And we know Mordremoth is Mind and Plants – not mind and creation.

As always, attempting to tie god to dragons directly fail. Always.

The Six Gods come from another world and came to Tyria as gods already. Why would they be limited to the spheres of Elder Dragon influence (and vice versa)?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The Six Gods come from another world and came to Tyria as gods already. Why would they be limited to the spheres of Elder Dragon influence (and vice versa)?

I would instead suggest that they are tied to the magic of this world, and thus use the same magic, but in their own way. Which is why Mordremoth uses plant growth to destroy other life, where as Melandru is all about allowing all nature to flourish.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I would instead suggest that are tied to the magic of this world, and thus use the same magic, but in their own way. Which is why Mordremoth uses plant growth to destroy other life, where as Melandru is all about allowing all nature to flourish.

Why would magical beings from another world be tried to this world’s magic?

What we know for certain….

Dragons :::
Mordremoth – Mind and Plant
Zhaitan – Shadow and Death
Primordus – Fire? Destruction? Earth?
Jormage – Ice?
DSD – Water?
Kralkatorrik – Crystal? Earth? Chaos?

Gods ::: (gw2 wiki says this is what they are gods of)
Dwayna – healing, air, and life
Balthazar – war, fire, and challenge
Grenth – darkness, ice, and death
Kormir – order, spirit, and truth
Lyssa – beauty, water, and illusion
Melandru – nature, earth, and growth

(We used to have Abaddon – water and secrets. If Menzies (or Dhuum even [last I checked, he’s not destroyed yet]) still have any domain over anything at all we don’t know what it is)

(still wondering why that split between ice and water has to exist, but other than that…) 18+ to 12 aspects/spheres of influence. There doesn’t seem to be any relation between the human gods and elder dragons based on their spheres of influence, and we don’t even need to know what the other four dragons’ sphere’s of influence are.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I think there are indeed many spheres, and not all of them need to be embodied by a god or an elder dragon. The only clear pattern I see so far, is that Elder Dragons use magic for evil, and may share some corrupted versions of some of the spheres that the gods embody.

Even that might be more of a reflection of their temperament than of their fundamental nature. We’ve had evil gods, and if Glint had become an Elder Dragon, we could have had a good Elder Dragon.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I would instead suggest that are tied to the magic of this world, and thus use the same magic, but in their own way. Which is why Mordremoth uses plant growth to destroy other life, where as Melandru is all about allowing all nature to flourish.

Why would magical beings from another world be tried to this world’s magic?

Indeed. As I’ve said before, it’d be a convenient explanation for the loss of resurrection and powerful healing magic if it turned out that it was a form of magic that doesn’t naturally exist on Tyria, and was only available before due to Dwayna’s presence. When the gods withdrew their remaining influence after Nightfall, powerful healing magic went with them, pushing monks and other Preservation users to shift more to the protection and smiting aspects and become guardians.

Chrispy.5641:

Gods ::: (gw2 wiki says this is what they are gods of)
Dwayna – healing, air, and life
Balthazar – war, fire, and challenge
Grenth – darkness, ice, and death
Kormir – order, spirit, and truth
Lyssa – beauty, water, and illusion
Melandru – nature, earth, and growth

The domains attributed to the gods by humans are not necessarily the domains that they are actually defined by. For instance, Kormir is ‘order, spirit, and truth’ – however, fundamentally, she is a god of knowledge. Many of the others there may be multiple aspects of the same domain, and there may be other domains that human theology typically downplays (Dwayna, for instance, has been described as a goddess of light and warmth as well, primarily through GW1 Wintersday sources). It’s plausible that, once we get the full list of the dragon domains, we’ll be able to largely map the gods domains to them, even if the assignments are mixed up a bit.

(still wondering why that split between ice and water has to exist, but other than that…)

I tend to think of ‘ice’ here as a symbolic representation of ‘cold’. Water can be cold or warm, while a number of necromancer skills – the profession most associated with Grenth – in both games are able to chill a target without needing ice as a medium.

draxynnic.3719:

The domains attributed to the gods by humans are not necessarily the domains that they are actually defined by. For instance, Kormir is ‘order, spirit, and truth’ – however, fundamentally, she is a god of knowledge. Many of the others there may be multiple aspects of the same domain, and there may be other domains that human theology typically downplays (Dwayna, for instance, has been described as a goddess of light and warmth as well, primarily through GW1 Wintersday sources). It’s plausible that, once we get the full list of the dragon domains, we’ll be able to largely map the gods domains to them, even if the assignments are mixed up a bit.

Well, then that would mean that the Norn’s concept of the gods, being spirits of action, is probably closer to what we need if we’re going to compare them to anything else on Tyria.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I would instead suggest that they are tied to the magic of this world, and thus use the same magic, but in their own way. Which is why Mordremoth uses plant growth to destroy other life, where as Melandru is all about allowing all nature to flourish.

Why would magical beings from another world be tried to this world’s magic?

Because I think they tap into the resident magic, rather than innately carry all of their powers inside them. This is why I think they have spheres of influence on this planet: Because Tyria’s magic is divided into spheres. It would also explain why other creatures on Tyria also adhere to these spheres of influence. Certainly they are not all from the same origins as the human gods. Yet they all seem to abide by similar rules. I think that’s simply because that is how magic works on Tyria.

Except that when push comes to shove, the magic used by mortal spellcasters doesn’t align neatly with either the gods or the dragons. Necromancers and mesmers map somewhat to Grenth and Lyssa respectively, but not perfectly. Monks, guardians, and paragons were split between Dwayna and Balthazar, while the elementalist spreads across all but Kormir.

Similarly, if you attempt to match to dragons… elementalist seems to be spread across all but Zhaitan and Mordremoth, while mesmer and guardian are hard to clearly pin to any of them. Necromancer nicely maps to Zhaitan, but not as well as it does to Grenth.

I think the splitting of the bloodstones has altered the domains of magic as accessible to mortals – instead of whatever they were before, they’ve now been consolidated into Preservation, Aggression, Destruction and Denial. I’ve speculated myself that this was because the gods tried to split the bloodstones according to their own distinctions, failed, and the bloodstones were the result – they were able to get necromancers and mesmers out, but when they tried to make Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru and Abaddon professions out of it, the magic just wasn’t compatible with separating out that way and the Preservation, Destruction and ‘keystone’ stones were the result.

Certainly, I’m inclined to think that if the gods are similar in nature to the dragons, then they do indeed have their own innate magic embodied within them that follows the rules of wherever they came from rather than Tyria’s rules. However, they’re not averse to using Tyria’s magic as well. The similarities that do arise are simply reflecting that there are commonalities as well as differences between Tyria’s magic and the magic of the gods.

@Chrispy: That’s pretty much my thought regarding classifying the gods in GW myself. “God” = A spiritual being that embodies a concept or action.

draxynnic.3719:

Except that when push comes to shove, the magic used by mortal spellcasters doesn’t align neatly with either the gods or the dragons. Necromancers and mesmers map somewhat to Grenth and Lyssa respectively, but not perfectly. Monks, guardians, and paragons were split between Dwayna and Balthazar, while the elementalist spreads across all but Kormir.

I fail to see how that refutes my point. If anything, it confirms what I was saying. Or are you misunderstanding my point?

draxynnic.3719:

Similarly, if you attempt to match to dragons… elementalist seems to be spread across all but Zhaitan and Mordremoth, while mesmer and guardian are hard to clearly pin to any of them. Necromancer nicely maps to Zhaitan, but not as well as it does to Grenth.

Again, you are confirming my point, not refuting it.

I’m not saying that the magic of the Elder Dragons maps to that of the gods. I’m saying they are tapping into the same magic, but using the different spheres in different ways. The sphere of nature can be used for good and evil. Mordremoth twists it into something vile and destructive, but Melandru uses it to create diversity of life. As such, Melandru and Mordremoth are NOT mirrors of each other, but they are both using the same sphere of magic in different ways.

Oh, we don’t disagree that the dragons and gods map differently. The distinction is that I don’t think the gods and dragons necessarily span the same domains even if you take all six of each.

The point I’m making is that the rules that apply to mortals seem to be different to those that apply to either gods or dragons. Another observation is that if the magic the gods brought with them has elements that are foreign to Tyria’s natural magic, this would explain why some branches of magic disappeared when the gods withdrew completely. (The disappearance of the ‘foreign’ professions – ritualist, paragon, dervish – is explained by losing contact with the experts in that profession, but the same explanation cannot be used for monks and their powerful healing magic.

Mind you, this does bring up another interesting consideration… what domains do the professions seem to have? Elementals have all the elemental domains. Necromancers have Death, Shadows, and Cold/Ice (the last overlapping with elementalists). Mesmers have Mind, and some things that aren’t clearly Mind. Rangers have Growth and a couple of elemental domains. Thieves have Shadows, and possibly more. Guardians… apart from fire and war/competition, I’m really not sure how to classify them in terms of the proposed domains of gods or dragons.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Xukavi.4320:

I’m not exactly arguing saying some Elder Dragons can or can’t create/corrupt to make their minions. What I’m saying is that we might have preference of each Elder Dragon.

Though I don’t think this holds any form of power over the spheres of influence. And I agree – I’ve recognized this since, about 2 years ago.

Xukavi.4320:

Primordus: Do we have an account of a time when he corrupted a living being? So far all I’ve seen is him creating Destroyers.

Not sure if it was this thread or another recent one, but I’ve had to point his out a lot recently.

It was an interview. Here

I know this discussion was brought up around 2 years ago, I remember that. Just figured right now is a good time to revisit said discussion.

Also thanks for the link on that interview totally forgot about the volcanic fractal.

Chrispy.5641:

Well, then that would mean that the Norn’s concept of the gods, being spirits of action, is probably closer to what we need if we’re going to compare them to anything else on Tyria.

Which is something I bring up every time people try to make a connection. And usually they do such by ignoring Kormir and using Abaddon – but at the same time, using Grenth but ignoring Dhuum.

Each god has 5+ themes to them by the various human cultures:

Dwayne: Life, Air, Light, Warmth, Healing, Existence
Melandru: Nature, Earth, Animals, Plants, Growth, Creation
Balthazar: War, Fire, Honor, Combat, Battle, Mass Murder, Destruction
Lyssa: Beauty, Illusion, Chaos, Water, Inspiration
Grenth: Death, Ice, Darkness, Cold, Sorrow, Strict Ethics, Judgment
Kormir: Knowledge, Truth, Secrets, Order, Spirit

And for fallen gods:
Abaddon: Knowledge, Wisdom, Secrets, Water, the Depths
Dhuum: Death

Dhuum has a lot of unknowns for what he was called the god of.

As you can see, a lot of this is just different words for the same thing. The norn call Balthazar War, Kormir Knowledge, and Grenth Death. Now take that, and look at predecessor and successor:

Knowledge and Death are the only shared things between Abaddon/Kormir and Dhuum/Grenth. Grenth was called the Prince of Ice and Sorrow before he became a god.

So the gods may only have a single domain in the end.

The gods seem to have more metaphysical aspects. On the other hand, the dragons seem to be more physical and natural. Things that exist by themselves, and not what must be acted upon.

Under such a thought, they would only overlap with Life, Nature, and Death.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Because I think they tap into the resident magic, rather than innately carry all of their powers inside them. This is why I think they have spheres of influence on this planet: Because Tyria’s magic is divided into spheres. It would also explain why other creatures on Tyria also adhere to these spheres of influence. Certainly they are not all from the same origins as the human gods. Yet they all seem to abide by similar rules. I think that’s simply because that is how magic works on Tyria.

It makes sense for natives of Tyria to adhere to the spheres of Tyrian influence, but as Drax points out, it isn’t perfect to the gods (or, for that matter, the dragons).

I suspect that the gods took all the magic from their home world with them, and I agree with Drax that they tried to shift the Bloodstones into those spheres with the schools of magic, but things got messed up.

The only possible relation between god and dragon that I see would be same roles for different worlds.

draxynnic.3719:

Mind you, this does bring up another interesting consideration… what domains do the professions seem to have?

If we’re talking purely magic based and having their own domains not necessarily relating to Gods and Dragons.

Elementalist: Fire, Water, Air, Ice, Earth, Healing
Engineer: None
Guardian: Battle, Light, Order, Healing
Mesmer: Mind, Chaos
Necromancer: Death, Cold, Darkness, Sacrifice(?)
Ranger: Nature, Growth, Survival, Animals
Thief: Shadow, Death, Mind, Shadow
Warrior: Inspiration, Strength