Guild Wars 2

If they need to see how bad “squishy melee” is they should play elementalist. Less armor than thief, no stealth, fewer blinds and fewer evades. Oh, and their class mechanic doesn’t get an exemption when dealing with chill.

Thieves in this thread = true Scotsmen.

No true Scotsman would take advantage of the current initiative system!

The direction this thread is heading is horrible for the game balance. Every class is different and that is a good thing because it adds variety. I am playing mostly engi right now and all I know is if I interrupt a costly skill of a thief in a 1v1 fight I will most likley win because heres the thing. Thief is a calculating class, like you really need to calculate in your head how much ini you can spend on spamming burst bevor you go in or else you get caught with your pants down. Now if I interrupt one single skill I can bring the thief below the ini threshold that he saved for escaping OR he is forced to stop attacking and use his last ini to get out of the fight.

The whole argument that class mechanics of thieves are OP is something I agree on BUT it should be like that because the class mechanics of all classes are OP. Thats the way it should be because thats the reason you want to play class x or y. Like I said I play engi right now and I could tell you at least 5 reasons why the engi class mechanics are completly OP too. If a class or a specific build is way better than the rest than you need to balance the skills/traits that make the spec so good and not the class mechanics because thats what makes the class unique.

Clownmug.8357:

If they need to see how bad “squishy melee” is they should play elementalist. Less armor than thief, no stealth, fewer blinds and fewer evades. Oh, and their class mechanic doesn’t get an exemption when dealing with chill.

Last time I checked meta celestial D/D eles were really hard to kill and dealt a ton of damage on top of it.

Clownmug.8357:

If they need to see how bad “squishy melee” is they should play elementalist. Less armor than thief, no stealth, fewer blinds and fewer evades. Oh, and their class mechanic doesn’t get an exemption when dealing with chill.

yep, because we all know D/D eles are so glassy, right?

Meta builds are meta builds. I’m talking about a full glass ele.

The main Issue with the Thief is stealth. Stealth in general in this game is a horribly designed mechanic and very badly balanced. Issue with any stealth is that there is atm. exactly 1 player skill to counter it that’s “Sic’em” from the ranger and even that one is highly conditional as I believe the pet needs to hit you before the reveal is applied.

Now why is stealth bad. It is very simple. It has high defense and offensive power with no draw back. Unlike other mechanics ( say a leap or a channel) using stealth doesn’t force you to be offensive or defensive. You have no scenario of where using stealth is bad. Especially for the Mesmer( with PU) and Thief you only get benefits. Putting pressure on the enemy to find you forcing him to take action with out taking any yourself ( beyond going to stealth but let’s not pretend like that is high skill cap).

So basically it is never a bad move to use stealth beyond wasting a cooldown but that can happen with literally any skill. This is also the first point why the Thief is such a big offender is being annoying to stealth. The draw back of CD falls short. If you are some what smart you can manage your initiative. Meaning you can use stealth as much as you want and have no cost for failing to use it.

Another point is that there is virtually no counter play. If anyone is gone argue AoE is a soft counter. Please get out of here. AoE dmg on enemies is a from a pressure. Putting an enemy under pressure makes it more likely that and unskilled player makes an mistake. So it literally is a soft counter to every class. Like mention before there is currently 1 skill in the kitten nal of all 8 classes that gives reveal and while they are looking to give the engi one as well ( which could mean all get one) it still is gone be very very annoying to deal with as you might get forced to run with a semi useful skill just to be able to reveal them. It is a nice start but it probably will not solve the problem.

Ultimately the stealth mechanic needs to change. Be it either that using it will give you the reveal debuff regardless of attacking or not. Dmg cancels stealth or more realistically shortens it’s duration. There needs to be something done as it is a very badly made system in the game causing fun only to the user and huge amounts of distress and annoyance to everyone else. To draw an analogy imagine the death shroud of the necro would not require stuff to die but instead would be fulled by using certain skills and combo finishers. An infinite health necro who could spamm a leap through a what ever field to stay topped of in Death shroud would be just that.

Clownmug.8357:

Meta builds are meta builds. I’m talking about a full glass ele.

in which case you shouldn’t be complaining about being squishy? “full glass” ele has its own active defenses and recovery systems. don’t derail the thread, and i advise against starting a new one asking for ele buffs.

@LaronX

As a thief, I full agree to your post.

To bad that the most people can’t (or will not) see the truth.

LaronX.8079:

Ultimately the stealth mechanic needs to change. Be it either that using it will give you the reveal debuff regardless of attacking or not. Dmg cancels stealth or more realistically shortens it’s duration. There needs to be something done as it is a very badly made system in the game causing fun only to the user and huge amounts of distress and annoyance to everyone else. To draw an analogy imagine the death shroud of the necro would not require stuff to die but instead would be fulled by using certain skills and combo finishers. An infinite health necro who could spamm a leap through a what ever field to stay topped of in Death shroud would be just that.

No it doesn’t. Your changes would make stealth pointless to use and effectively make an entire traitline and a profession’s main survival mechanic obsolete. If you really want to go through with this, then suggest more survivability through the plethora of useless traits and utilities beforehand.

Otherwise you will be forcing thieves into evade spam which will promptly be complained about, perhaps nerfed, leaving thieves with using stealth purely to apply blinds. That will then be nerfed due to excessive QQ.

Those players could just be honest and say:

I want thieves to stand there quietly while I kill them.

We can definitely arrange that without the devs.

Black Teagan.9215:

@LaronX

As a thief, I full agree to your post.

To bad that the most people can’t (or will not) see the truth.

Yes, alot of people can’t admit that they got outplayed. So they go on the forums to gather sympathy so the devs (who rarely touch thieves, mind you) will nerf them instead of improving themselves.

Black Teagan.9215:

@LaronX

As a thief, I full agree to your post.

To bad that the most people can’t (or will not) see the truth.

As a person who also plays a thief, I question how you think nerfing stealth would benefit the class. As it is , if you are caught alone by a Thief, sure it’s bad news, don’t expect an ambush to be gentle. With company by your side however, a spike build Thief that has just come out of stealth probably wouldn’t be as formidable. Slow him down or immobilize him, and that flimsy zerker gear he is likely wearing isn’t looking as good as it did a minute ago.

Also consider that PvP isn’t the most important aspect of this game. Alot of people play primarily for the open world content, and some never even touch PvP or WvW. How fair would this be to the PvE thief players that enjoy using stealth for beating the life outta things in dungeons or the open world content ? They’d suddenly find themselves punished for using the stealth mechanic in the way that Warriors use their adrenaline, or Guardian uses their virtues, as they were intended within the game mechanics.

We’ve all had our gripes about other classes being OP, what makes these arguments any different from people calling Warrior OP? Because you can see him coming?

TheRyftLord.5820:

Also consider that PvP isn’t the most important aspect of this game. Alot of people play primarily for the open world content, and some never even touch PvP or WvW. How fair would this be to the PvE thief players that enjoy using stealth for beating the life outta things in dungeons or the open world content ? They’d suddenly find themselves punished for using the stealth mechanic in the way that Warriors use their adrenaline, or Guardian uses their virtues, as they were intended within the game mechanics.

We’ve all had our gripes about other classes being OP, what makes these arguments any different from people calling Warrior OP? Because you can see him coming?

Stealth is not a thief class mechanic, initative and dual wield skills are.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Clownmug.8357:

Meta builds are meta builds. I’m talking about a full glass ele.

in which case you shouldn’t be complaining about being squishy? “full glass” ele has its own active defenses and recovery systems. don’t derail the thread, and i advise against starting a new one asking for ele buffs.

Someone suggested the OP should play thief to learn a “squishy melee” profession so I’m just pointing out a more suitable way to educate them.

Apparently “squishiness” is the excuse for why initiative is unaffected by chill even though ele is more “squishy” and their attunement swap is still affected.

Clownmug.8357:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Clownmug.8357:

Meta builds are meta builds. I’m talking about a full glass ele.

in which case you shouldn’t be complaining about being squishy? “full glass” ele has its own active defenses and recovery systems. don’t derail the thread, and i advise against starting a new one asking for ele buffs.

Someone suggested the OP should play thief to learn a “squishy melee” profession so I’m just pointing out a more suitable way to educate them.

Apparently “squishiness” is the excuse for why initiative is unaffected by chill even though ele is more “squishy” and their attunement swap is still affected.

Actually its because making chill affect initiative the way they want to will translate into a 300% CD. 1 ini per sec/3 = 1/3 initiative per second = 300% CD rate. They are asking for an easily accessed “i win” button.

An ele may be squishy but they have alot of access to healing to make up for it. Thieves have resetting.

EDITED DUE 2 FC: :o so you did.

Zacchary.6183:

Actually its because making chill affect initiative the way you guys want to will translate into a 300% CD. 1 ini per sec/3 = 1/3 initiative per second = 300% CD rate. You are asking for an easily accessed “i win” button.

An ele may be squishy but they have alot of access to healing to make up for it. Thieves have resetting.

I agree that it would be too much which is why I suggested earlier that chill should reduce the initiative regen to the pre- Dec. 10 rate at most.

Mayama.1854:

TheRyftLord.5820:

Also consider that PvP isn’t the most important aspect of this game. Alot of people play primarily for the open world content, and some never even touch PvP or WvW. How fair would this be to the PvE thief players that enjoy using stealth for beating the life outta things in dungeons or the open world content ? They’d suddenly find themselves punished for using the stealth mechanic in the way that Warriors use their adrenaline, or Guardian uses their virtues, as they were intended within the game mechanics.

We’ve all had our gripes about other classes being OP, what makes these arguments any different from people calling Warrior OP? Because you can see him coming?

Stealth is not a thief class mechanic, initative and dual wield skills are.

Stealth attacks however are a class mechanic as no other class gets a rollover while in stealth. While Stealth itself isn’t a class mechanic, other class mechanics and traits are woven into it.

Maugetarr.6823:

Mayama.1854:

TheRyftLord.5820:

Also consider that PvP isn’t the most important aspect of this game. Alot of people play primarily for the open world content, and some never even touch PvP or WvW. How fair would this be to the PvE thief players that enjoy using stealth for beating the life outta things in dungeons or the open world content ? They’d suddenly find themselves punished for using the stealth mechanic in the way that Warriors use their adrenaline, or Guardian uses their virtues, as they were intended within the game mechanics.

We’ve all had our gripes about other classes being OP, what makes these arguments any different from people calling Warrior OP? Because you can see him coming?

Stealth is not a thief class mechanic, initative and dual wield skills are.

Stealth attacks however are a class mechanic as no other class gets a rollover while in stealth. While Stealth itself isn’t a class mechanic, other class mechanics and traits are woven into it.

Yes, and while it may not be a “class mechanic”, it is still an integral part of the class. Much like buffing yourself through the roof to do big damage is very much a big part of the warrior class. Can you imagine a Thief with sub-par stealth or a Warrior with sub-par damage. It’s kinda meant to be something particular classes excel at.

TheRyftLord.5820:

Also consider that PvP isn’t the most important aspect of this game. Alot of people play primarily for the open world content, and some never even touch PvP or WvW. How fair would this be to the PvE thief players that enjoy using stealth for beating the life outta things in dungeons or the open world content ? They’d suddenly find themselves punished for using the stealth mechanic in the way that Warriors use their adrenaline, or Guardian uses their virtues, as they were intended within the game mechanics.

Awww…. aren’t this cute. Do you even play Warrior and Guardian? They are exactly like my sugested changes. Yes you can get your Adrenaline back fast as a Warrior the skills still have a cooldown. You can’t burst them out 3 times in a row ( you could if they where just Adrenaline gated). Same for the Guardian. Virtues have a long cooldown. She shortest it can get is 21 seconds on the virtue of justice. You can get it back with a kill if traited the other have twice or more of a cooldown and only can be recharged with a elite skill. So unlike stealth using them means you have to make a good move with them ( block an attack hit the blind etc.) .

Both mechanics punish you if you mess them up. Stealth doesn’t you need to be doing actively stuff wrong to go wrong with it. Also like Mayama.1854 stealth is not a Thief core mechanic. They happen to use it the most yes but they also happen to abuse it the worst. Like I said the mechanic is the main issue. It is just a bad mechanic.

As for your PvE argument. It wouldn’t matter. In PvE you use stealth for two reasons. One to drop aggro and two get the the bonus damage proc on your skills. You will not wait out the full duration to trick the enemy mob and be able to instant stealth again. Why would you. I think it is just a lot of Thiefs don’t wanting to see there class touched. That is understandable especially in PvE there damage is more meh then awesome. But that doesn’t change the fact that stealth is a toxic mechanic and needs to be changed.

TheRyftLord.5820:

Black Teagan.9215:

@LaronX

As a thief, I full agree to your post.

To bad that the most people can’t (or will not) see the truth.

As a person who also plays a thief, I question how you think nerfing stealth would benefit the class. As it is , if you are caught alone by a Thief, sure it’s bad news, don’t expect an ambush to be gentle. With company by your side however, a spike build Thief that has just come out of stealth probably wouldn’t be as formidable. Slow him down or immobilize him, and that flimsy zerker gear he is likely wearing isn’t looking as good as it did a minute ago.

Also consider that PvP isn’t the most important aspect of this game. Alot of people play primarily for the open world content, and some never even touch PvP or WvW. How fair would this be to the PvE thief players that enjoy using stealth for beating the life outta things in dungeons or the open world content ? They’d suddenly find themselves punished for using the stealth mechanic in the way that Warriors use their adrenaline, or Guardian uses their virtues, as they were intended within the game mechanics.

We’ve all had our gripes about other classes being OP, what makes these arguments any different from people calling Warrior OP? Because you can see him coming?

Currently, stealth is very bad designed and unbalanced.
I don’t think they should nerf it, but the duration of stealth and revealed need a rework.

I know that SA, Acrobatic (anyway), like many other traits and skills, and their general survivability need then a overhaul, but this is already necessary.
Especially if thieves shall have enough survivability, without spamming stealth or evasion the whole day.

In PvP and WvW stealth is just unfair, while in PvE stealth it’s no help, cannot protect you (unless against trashmobs) and the fact that their survivability is nearly complete build around the use of stealth, make them defenceless.

Btw I’m a PvE thief, so I know how bad they are there and this is one of the reasons because thieves and stealth need a overhaul.

@Topic
If you want, that chill affect more on thieves, then so that chill increase the weaponskill costs by 1 (or 2) Inipoints.
Everything else would make them to much to a freekill, especially for me.

looooool 5-8 second stealth, 10 sec reveal????
What is a D/D supposed to do when not in stealth? What is a D/P supposed to do? So a D/D goes into stealth, is fighting a tanky guardian. Does a 3K backstab…then is revealed for 10 SECONDS? lmao

This thread was created by WvW whiners, it’s so obvious.
Next plz.

TrOtskY.5927:

looooool 5-8 second stealth, 10 sec reveal????
What is a D/D supposed to do when not in stealth? What is a D/P supposed to do? So a D/D goes into stealth, is fighting a tanky guardian. Does a 3K backstab…then is revealed for 10 SECONDS? lmao

This thread was created by WvW whiners, it’s so obvious.
Next plz.

Dodge, move and play the game. Are you kittened or do you only play thief and are blind? Thief s if any class already have a lot of active defenses . You got a kitten load of blinds and jumps and you still moan how to survive. What the hell. UHHH … QQ I actually had to COMMIT to an action like every other class. QQ I can’t kitten up and be instantly gone again. QQ my mistakes actually stick to me QQ .
Seriously. Stop. You clearly don’t know how this game works.

LaronX.8079:

TrOtskY.5927:

looooool 5-8 second stealth, 10 sec reveal????
What is a D/D supposed to do when not in stealth? What is a D/P supposed to do? So a D/D goes into stealth, is fighting a tanky guardian. Does a 3K backstab…then is revealed for 10 SECONDS? lmao

This thread was created by WvW whiners, it’s so obvious.
Next plz.

Dodge, move and play the game. Are you kittened or do you only play thief and are blind? Thief s if any class already have a lot of active defenses . You got a kitten load of blinds and jumps and you still moan how to survive. What the hell. UHHH … QQ I actually had to COMMIT to an action like every other class. QQ I can’t kitten up and be instantly gone again. QQ my mistakes actually stick to me QQ .
Seriously. Stop. You clearly don’t know how this game works.

Yeah, those 3 seconds revealed are actually more than enough for even the tackiest player to kill any thief.

I guess you agree that by doing this we need to increase the coefficient of backstab? Because dagger sets doesn’t have that much other useful skills than can kill people except for backstab. If this change was to go through, then this would be a normal scenario:

• Thief enters stealth, do a backstab of 3k on a warrior with nearly 30k health.
• Thief run away.

Stealth isn’t op. People just need to learn how to fight thieves. I have no problems on any of my other toons when fighting thieves, so why do you?

Btw: Looks like a lot of professions are getting an ability to reveal thieves. As it looks now we can be chain revealed for 12 seconds, 6 of those seconds are instant cast from 1200 range…. Seems balanced, right?

LaronX.8079:

TrOtskY.5927:

looooool 5-8 second stealth, 10 sec reveal????
What is a D/D supposed to do when not in stealth? What is a D/P supposed to do? So a D/D goes into stealth, is fighting a tanky guardian. Does a 3K backstab…then is revealed for 10 SECONDS? lmao

This thread was created by WvW whiners, it’s so obvious.
Next plz.

Dodge, move and play the game. Are you kittened or do you only play thief and are blind? Thief s if any class already have a lot of active defenses . You got a kitten load of blinds and jumps and you still moan how to survive. What the hell. UHHH … QQ I actually had to COMMIT to an action like every other class. QQ I can’t kitten up and be instantly gone again. QQ my mistakes actually stick to me QQ .
Seriously. Stop. You clearly don’t know how this game works.

xD

Do you ever venture outside of the warm comfort of PvE?
I play a few classes, thief is one of them. I find thief easy to kill on my other classes. A ridiculously long reveal every time would make them an absolute joke.
A thief must manage initiative, stealth is a good way to regen it without being “engaged”. A thief without initiative is a sitting duck. A thief without dodges is a sitting duck. A thief without condi removal is a sitting duck. What you are trying to do is put them all together.
You have no idea whatsoever. The situation with thief is bad enough already, with only 2 meta pvp builds, with S/D simply outclassing D/P in PvP (I play S/D and it is way more flexible than D/P which is a one trick pony) outside of duelling.

The problem with a thief and stealth is that the traits are simply very strong in the SA line. This is what kittens people off, and it is only a problem in a WvW environment. In PvP, if a thief is running stealth arts >
1. I know he is a bad player, I will play extremely aggressive and
2. He is going to be running around in stealth a lot, and therefore hampering his team with node control.

In WvW the stealth access is more of a problem, with SA being viable, if not necessary in a lot of cases. The traits are simply too strong.
1. Shadows Embrace is really very powerful condi removal, and triggers too frequently (IMO)
2. Shadows Rejuvenation combined with D/P perma stealth lets a thief regen ridiculously huge amounts of HP. The Regen on Rejuvenation needs a nerf. Just compare it to something like Assassins Reward. Why would you EVER take AR over Rejuve?

To compound these problems, WvW has food buffs, Guard Stacks and much more viable stacking sigils.

So the lesson

1. Thief in PvP is fine. Stop QQing

2. Thief has some overpowered features in WvW.

Your 8 second reveal hurts ALL thief builds just so that you can stop being confronted with ridiculous condi removal and regen.

lol 10 seconds of revealed. no one would play thief again.

well, that’s a lie. every thief would reroll S/D evade spam and then people would ask for flanking strike to cost 10 initiative and have a 3 second aftercast.

and WTF is a thief supposed to do with 8 seconds of stealth in the middle of a fight? they only need 2-3 seconds to setup the attack, and if you play thief, you should be aware of that. giving thieves super long stealth access and giving them no stealth increase is about the same thing. an 8-10 second revealed, on the other hand would kill a thief unless they go full acro for stupid amounts of dodge.

Maugetarr.6823:

Stealth attacks however are a class mechanic as no other class gets a rollover while in stealth. While Stealth itself isn’t a class mechanic, other class mechanics and traits are woven into it.

Yes its part of the class concept but it is not exclusive, on my mesmer 1v1 roaming spec Im usually in stealth half of the fight and can reset with it when I want, like a thief. You can also build evade/dodge centred thieves too. So its not the only approach you can take to the class.

Mayama.1854:

Maugetarr.6823:

Stealth attacks however are a class mechanic as no other class gets a rollover while in stealth. While Stealth itself isn’t a class mechanic, other class mechanics and traits are woven into it.

Yes its part of the class concept but it is not exclusive, on my mesmer 1v1 roaming spec Im usually in stealth half of the fight and can reset with it when I want, like a thief. You can also build evade/dodge centred thieves too. So its not the only approach you can take to the class.

But should that mean stealth should be inferior? I can’t see p/d,d/d and d/p really working with Acro if changes aren’t made s/d however can choose to go SA or Acro yes I fought SA S/D.

LaronX.8079:

Snip

By reworking (or should I say “reworking”)the stealth mechanic, you are completely ruining the thief class. All that is going to be left is S/D evade builds, but then ppl will complain about that even more and then that’ll get “fixed.” People make it sound like stealth is a way to god-mode in a fight and not be able to lose. No. If you believe this, I’m sorry but you seriously dumb. The only thing that needs work on thief really is d/p, and most good thieves agree on this.

LaronX.8079:

Dodge, move and play the game. Are you kittened or do you only play thief and are blind? Thief s if any class already have a lot of active defenses . You got a kitten load of blinds and jumps and you still moan how to survive. What the hell. UHHH … QQ I actually had to COMMIT to an action like every other class. QQ I can’t kitten up and be instantly gone again. QQ my mistakes actually stick to me QQ .
Seriously. Stop. You clearly don’t know how this game works.

I really am awe struck by the stupidity of this entire statement. I usually try my best to stray away from such statements on the forums, but I’m really getting fed up with unjustified thief QQ. A bad thief will not survive at all period. if my CnDs dont connect due to an extremely wide range of possibilities, I am beyond vulnerable. And mistakes are very noticeable on thief. if I mess up in a fight, there’s a very good chance that it’s going to bite me in the kitten unless I can work around my mistake. Same with other classes, although classes such as warrior and guardian and much more forgiving. And a 10s revealed would completely destroy thief. period. There’s nothing we could do for 10 whole seconds to stay alive w/o stealth like other classes can. it is our means of survival, with he exemption of Evade builds, but people complain about those too.. Seriously, is there anything we can do for you guys to not hate us?

Quakeman.9378:

LaronX.8079:

Dodge, move and play the game. Are you kittened or do you only play thief and are blind? Thief s if any class already have a lot of active defenses . You got a kitten load of blinds and jumps and you still moan how to survive. What the hell. UHHH … QQ I actually had to COMMIT to an action like every other class. QQ I can’t kitten up and be instantly gone again. QQ my mistakes actually stick to me QQ .
Seriously. Stop. You clearly don’t know how this game works.

I really am awe struck by the stupidity of this entire statement. I usually try my best to stray away from such statements on the forums, but I’m really getting fed up with unjustified thief QQ. A bad thief will not survive at all period. if my CnDs dont connect due to an extremely wide range of possibilities, I am beyond vulnerable. And mistakes are very noticeable on thief. if I mess up in a fight, there’s a very good chance that it’s going to bite me in the kitten unless I can work around my mistake. Same with other classes, although classes such as warrior and guardian and much more forgiving. And a 10s revealed would completely destroy thief. period. There’s nothing we could do for 10 whole seconds to stay alive w/o stealth like other classes can. it is our means of survival, with he exemption of Evade builds, but people complain about those too.. Seriously, is there anything we can do for you guys to not hate us?

This post is not about stealth, this post is about how thieves have semi-immunity to chill. We want to discuss how thieves should be penalize by this condition. There are various ways that the thief could be penalized for example:

• if the thief is chilled make him deal -xx% damage (if initiative regeneration is not slowed down).
• root the thief and freeze him and make his movement slow down to 100%.
• chill should stop utility skill recharge to +90% or even 100% to compensate for the semi immunity.

Nobody will disagree that there is a problem with chill affecting thieves. Now, consider this hypothetical scenario:

• imagine for a moment if warriors were semi-immune to blind. What if warriors could connect a hit 50/50 even when blinded?

I can think of lots of ways to fix the chill problem; one of the easiest solutions I think would be to get rid off the -xx% skill cool down for ALL classes. That way everyone would be affected by just -66% speed.

1)
I dont think, that Initative need a rework, unless maybe with that what I wrote in my last post, because it is good balanced.
Thieves have more freedoms to use weaponskills, but the skills are weaker than normal weaponskills, the waste of initiative high influence to dmg and survivability and the pool shared between both weapons, which make weaponswaps for 5 new, operational skills impossible.

Thieves can’t use, over the same long period, so many weaponskills like the other classes, because the proportional between cost/reg are much worse, than the skill/cd of the others.

2)
-66% Ini-Reg through chill, were just too strong.

Don’t forget, that thieves can’t switch weapons for 5 other skills, and that thieves are complete deffentless, without their weaponskills.
The have no deff against rangeweapons, like every other classes, only against melee.
The slowed movement have already big influence on their survivability, and -66% would kill them.

If you want decrease their inireg, then give them blocks, otherwise it’s not possible.

Quakeman.9378:

LaronX.8079:

Snip

By reworking (or should I say “reworking”)the stealth mechanic, you are completely ruining the thief class. All that is going to be left is S/D evade builds, but then ppl will complain about that even more and then that’ll get “fixed.” People make it sound like stealth is a way to god-mode in a fight and not be able to lose. […]

That’s the problem.
Stealth is just bad designed and need a rework, because it’s nothing more than a triggermechanic for BS or the traits of SA.
It’s a mechanic that need no tactic, no skill and no forward-thinking about your next step, only a finger to spam it every 3(or 4) secs, and this don’t conforms with the rest of thief-policy.
(And it’s very hard to counter, or give them the chance to attack them before they can stealth hmself again.)

How you already wrote, would a change to stealth ruining the class, that’s correct because:

Venoms are terrible,
traps are terrible,
acrobatic is terrible (and full of stealth traits),
trickery is terrible,
they are terrible underwater,
support doesn’t existent (beside dmg)
and that stealth is no big help in PvE, because all these strong randomhits and aoe-attacks.

They are very weak and fewer and fewer play someone, especially in PvE, while even more people hate thieves, because one unbalanced mechanic, while they get one (indirect) nerf after another until they are death, because they cant exist with or without it.

That’s why first stealth and then the whole thiefclass need an overhaul.

The punishment for being chilled will never apply evenly across all classes because it works on a percentage, so skills with longer cool downs will always be hit harder than skills with little or no cool down. It just so happens that thieves have no cool downs on their weapon skills, so the effect is 66% x 0 = 0. This is just the design of the class.

Asking why chill doesn’t affect thieves is like asking why “revealed” doesn’t affect warriors. Since classes that attack from stealth get a revealed debuff, and warriors don’t use stealth, does that mean we have to apply an arbitrary penalty to warriors when they attack? Of course not, because warriors were never designed for stealth, just like thieves weren’t designed for weapon cool downs.

Hitman.5829:

This post is not about stealth, this post is about how thieves have semi-immunity to chill. We want to discuss how thieves should be penalize by this condition. There are various ways that the thief could be penalized for example:

• if the thief is chilled make him deal -xx% damage (if initiative regeneration is not slowed down).
• root the thief and freeze him and make his movement slow down to 100%.
• chill should stop utility skill recharge to +90% or even 100% to compensate for the semi immunity.

Seriously, you want chill to root the thief in place? Please stop, you’re only gana derail your own thread by asking for LOL posts against your ridiculous suggestions.

Shinjo.6092:

The punishment for being chilled will never apply evenly across all classes because it works on a percentage, so skills with longer cool downs will always be hit harder than skills with little or no cool down. It just so happens that thieves have no cool downs on their weapon skills, so the effect is 66% x 0 = 0. This is just the design of the class.

Asking why chill doesn’t affect thieves is like asking why “revealed” doesn’t affect warriors. Since classes that attack from stealth get a revealed debuff, and warriors don’t use stealth, does that mean we have to apply an arbitrary penalty to warriors when they attack? Of course not, because warriors were never designed for stealth, just like thieves weren’t designed for weapon cool downs.

If you apply revealed to a Warrior and they do try to stealth, it won’t allow them. If a Warrior does attack from stealth, they receive revealed. The class not having accecss to their own form of stealth isn’t important.

Thieves were designed to have initiative control the flow of battle. Just like other classes have cooldowns imposed upon them to control the flow of battle. This is a more logical comparison to make…

Black Teagan.9215:

1)

That’s the problem.
Stealth is just bad designed and need a rework, because it’s nothing more than a triggermechanic for BS or the traits of SA.
It’s a mechanic that need no tactic, no skill and no forward-thinking about your next step, only a finger to spam it every 3(or 4) secs, and this don’t conforms with the rest of thief-policy.
(And it’s very hard to counter, or give them the chance to attack them before they can stealth hmself again.)

How you already wrote, would a change to stealth ruining the class, that’s correct because:

Venoms are terrible,
traps are terrible,
acrobatic is terrible (and full of stealth traits),
trickery is terrible,
they are terrible underwater,
support doesn’t existent (beside dmg)
and that stealth is no big help in PvE, because all these strong randomhits and aoe-attacks.

They are very weak and fewer and fewer play someone, especially in PvE, while even more people hate thieves, because one unbalanced mechanic, while they get one (indirect) nerf after another until they are death, because they cant exist with or without it.

That’s why first stealth and then the whole thiefclass need an overhaul.

Very well said. If anything is going to be changed with the thief class, the whole class needs to be changed.

Let’s all remember that thief skill bar is not here yet maybe just maybe all classes will be more or less balanced or heading that way just maybe.

Sagat.3285:

Let’s all remember that thief skill bar is not here yet maybe just maybe all classes will be more or less balanced or heading that way just maybe.

Yea, that’s right, but do you think something will change after that?

I can’t do this.

Atherakhia.4086:

Shinjo.6092:

The punishment for being chilled will never apply evenly across all classes because it works on a percentage, so skills with longer cool downs will always be hit harder than skills with little or no cool down. It just so happens that thieves have no cool downs on their weapon skills, so the effect is 66% x 0 = 0. This is just the design of the class.

Asking why chill doesn’t affect thieves is like asking why “revealed” doesn’t affect warriors. Since classes that attack from stealth get a revealed debuff, and warriors don’t use stealth, does that mean we have to apply an arbitrary penalty to warriors when they attack? Of course not, because warriors were never designed for stealth, just like thieves weren’t designed for weapon cool downs.

If you apply revealed to a Warrior and they do try to stealth, it won’t allow them. If a Warrior does attack from stealth, they receive revealed. The class not having accecss to their own form of stealth isn’t important.

Thieves were designed to have initiative control the flow of battle. Just like other classes have cooldowns imposed upon them to control the flow of battle. This is a more logical comparison to make…

Warriors (nor any other class) don’t lose their stealth attacks from being revealed because they have no stealth attacks.
Thieves don’t gain an increase in cool down from being chilled because they have no cool downs.
Initiative may share some similarities with cool downs , but it doesn’t mean they should be affected in the same way. Otherwise, we can sit here all night coming up with a list of similar things in gw2 that behave differently. For instance, why do Mesmer have access to stealth that ignores reveal? Why do warriors not lose adrenaline when they miss their burst, but thieves lose initiative when they miss their attacks? Why do engineers not have weapon swap cool downs when they switch kits while every other class has a cool down when they switch weapons? The list goes on and on…

Hitman.5829:

Quakeman.9378:

LaronX.8079:

Dodge, move and play the game. Are you kittened or do you only play thief and are blind? Thief s if any class already have a lot of active defenses . You got a kitten load of blinds and jumps and you still moan how to survive. What the hell. UHHH … QQ I actually had to COMMIT to an action like every other class. QQ I can’t kitten up and be instantly gone again. QQ my mistakes actually stick to me QQ .
Seriously. Stop. You clearly don’t know how this game works.

I really am awe struck by the stupidity of this entire statement. I usually try my best to stray away from such statements on the forums, but I’m really getting fed up with unjustified thief QQ. A bad thief will not survive at all period. if my CnDs dont connect due to an extremely wide range of possibilities, I am beyond vulnerable. And mistakes are very noticeable on thief. if I mess up in a fight, there’s a very good chance that it’s going to bite me in the kitten unless I can work around my mistake. Same with other classes, although classes such as warrior and guardian and much more forgiving. And a 10s revealed would completely destroy thief. period. There’s nothing we could do for 10 whole seconds to stay alive w/o stealth like other classes can. it is our means of survival, with he exemption of Evade builds, but people complain about those too.. Seriously, is there anything we can do for you guys to not hate us?

This post is not about stealth, this post is about how thieves have semi-immunity to chill. We want to discuss how thieves should be penalize by this condition. There are various ways that the thief could be penalized for example:

• if the thief is chilled make him deal -xx% damage (if initiative regeneration is not slowed down).
• root the thief and freeze him and make his movement slow down to 100%.
• chill should stop utility skill recharge to +90% or even 100% to compensate for the semi immunity.

Nobody will disagree that there is a problem with chill affecting thieves. Now, consider this hypothetical scenario:

• imagine for a moment if warriors were semi-immune to blind. What if warriors could connect a hit 50/50 even when blinded?

I can think of lots of ways to fix the chill problem; one of the easiest solutions I think would be to get rid off the -xx% skill cool down for ALL classes. That way everyone would be affected by just -66% speed.

Thief is not semi immune to chill. All skills with recharge on thief are impacted by chill. Four weapon skills simply do not have a recharge as they do on other professions.

For those 4 skills per weapon they use initiative, which is a global pool between weapon swaps.

The most basic conclusion an initiative hater would come to is that the current behavior is unfair, and since thieves have a global cooldown between 2 weapons the 66% penality to recharges should be cut in half for initiative to 33%.

The above stance is still not a fair implementation, because on other professions not all 4 weapon skills are simultaneously put on recharge when chill is applied.

In other words in order for a global 33% reduction from chill on initiative to be fair it’s the equivalent of all 2-4 weapon skills on all in combat skill swap options simulatenously being on cooldown.

Reality is that the above scenario is an extremely rare occurance in a pvp scenario. As players will regularly have some 2-4 weapon skills on cooldown, while others are ready for use.

The elementalist, engineer, necromancer, and transformation skills add further complication to the fairness of a global initiative charge rate reduction, as they all add more skill pool options to consider.

These are some of the problem that initiative haters need to solve in order to present a logical argument that makes sense for making chill impact initiative recharge.

The variables mentioned above indicate that there could potentially be some impact from chill on the initiative recharge rate that would be fair, but it’s such a complicated problem to solve that it may not be worth solving, especially when there’s the potential for the fair solution’s impact to be less than 10% on initiative recharge.

They are already affected by all those things. However they probably shouldn’t.
In pvp all i see is hambows and condi engineers and mm necros all those builds are close to impossible to kill as a theif. If the theif does 1 mistake its game over for him.
Also condi bunker ranger and dd ele can basically never hit their w,a,s,d keys and win.
Chill doesn’t increase cooldown on skills without it because 0×0,66 is still 0.
I think you’re post can be summed up as “I just got killed by a theif I’m rank 5 qq”.

People should really play a profession themselves for an extended period of time, in at least WvW (for mild PvP) b4 they come here and criticize about a profession based upon their experience ‘on another’ profession…

I have been playing a thief in WvW for about the last year, now i will say that Melee isn’t my thing, but seeing the Thief is a mix of Mid-range/Melee i thought it to be an opportunity to learn. My experience is that the Thief is only very strong in a 1v1 and only against a limited number of professions (depending upon the experience level of the player behind it). Mesmers, Engineers (with that ‘newish’ dump everything build) & Warriors are especially hard. Easier but no walk over (if the player is good) are Elementalists and Necro’s, where i will mention that the elementalist is easier ‘if’ (s)he has a Zerg build, any more ‘generally specced’ Elementalist is tough due to all that healing. Same pretty much goes with Guardians, although for me those fights usually end in a stalemate. Rangers are doable, as long as they don’t pack to much immobilize, and as long as you can catch them in melee. Other thieves then, well D/D is a pain, for the rest it largely depends on the skill level…

And this is ALL based on 1v1 scenarios… add in a second player with me (2v1), and the list narrows down to: Good Clone Mesmers / Engineer build, are very hard, Guardians remain to be a lot of work or stalemate. The rest usually dies (except for warriors with their great sword). Add a second player for the opponent (1v2) and I’m left running mostly, if i don’t die flat out…

In all other scenarios I’m only marginally useful, and any WvW fight that matters, I’m left with 2 & 4 for (3×2, 2×4) on the shortbow. Or, if i manage to stay away from ANYthing that packs any bit of punch, i may be able to use my P/D to kill some hurt stragglers wandering around.

I am still very much struggling with my survivability. And i have stealth on my F1, on Dagger 5, on my Heal, and 2 on my Utilities. But being stealthed doesn’t mean a thief can’t be hit. And i use soldier armor, have added vitality on all jewelry (roughly 18.500hp). So, realy, if i were to wear zerg gear my HP would be what? around 14.000 or so? with no real toughness there either. (for toughness i have soldier armor and the ‘undead-set’ (i think) which gives toughness and condition damage. Still most skills of any strength hit me over 1000+ some skills, like eviscerate can hit for 6000+ …

So realy, there is 1 build, D/D that is really strong in 1v1, then P/D that i run is reasonably strong in 1v1 against a few professions, given they don’t pack any condi.clear. For all other scenarios the thief is marginal at best!

And non of this has anything to do with stealth, which already has a ‘revealed’ on use for 3 to 4 seconds on use. Doesn’t mean you can’t get hit, and is the only way to survive anything, usually a 1vMore situation where the only thing left to do is stealth and RUN! It has even less to do with initiative, because I wish i could use my swap to just cast 5 more skills! There is NO rotation but marginal skills on the thief, and if you blow 2x dagger 5 you have 4 seconds of stealth to hopefully get away, give you didn’t blow your 25 sec recharge 4 second stealth on utility Powderblast (or something like that), or the 30sec recharge stealth with the big ‘give away, here i am, hit me with any AoE you have’ other utility shadow refuge.

The only thing that a thief with stealth has, is that it is annoying that you can’t see him, because if you could he be a dang walk over. It’s that frustration, combined with him being very hard to deal with in 1v1 situations given ONE build. That you come here and ask a nerf to a profession that from my point of view has been nerfed to pretty much useless (if it wasn’t for 2 builds that still work).

If you truly want to make a case for a class that needs a nerf instead of a general buff (to make more builds viable), then please go after the Warrior. High damage, High evade (dang long sword), high condi clear, high recovery, high etc…

I thought about it and I think something like successful completion of Chained attack (AA chain) or couple ranged autoattacks giving some kind of major temporary buff to consume by using empowered version of #2-#5 attack could solve some issues.

Something like Assasin’s requirement to perform certain ability chain (Main hand, off hand), allowing to use powerful ability (Dual).

Arghore.8340:

And this is ALL based on 1v1 scenarios… add in a second player with me (2v1), and the list narrows down to: Good Clone Mesmers / Engineer build, are very hard, Guardians remain to be a lot of work or stalemate. The rest usually dies (except for warriors with their great sword). Add a second player for the opponent (1v2) and I’m left running mostly, if i don’t die flat out…

any profession/build that can actually win 2v1 against good players is completly broken, the way gw2 pvp works makes it impossible. The only exeptions are if the 2 enemies get ambushed by a zerker build and one gets down instantly or people are stupid enough to stay in range of a condi-bunker that slowly melts them

Mayama.1854:

Arghore.8340:

And this is ALL based on 1v1 scenarios… add in a second player with me (2v1), and the list narrows down to: Good Clone Mesmers / Engineer build, are very hard, Guardians remain to be a lot of work or stalemate. The rest usually dies (except for warriors with their great sword). Add a second player for the opponent (1v2) and I’m left running mostly, if i don’t die flat out…

any profession/build that can actually win 2v1 against good players is completly broken, the way gw2 pvp works makes it impossible. The only exeptions are if the 2 enemies get ambushed by a zerker build and one gets down instantly or people are stupid enough to stay in range of a condi-bunker that slowly melts them

If it takes 2+ people to kill 1 player then they probably weren’t that good.

Zacchary.6183:

If it takes 2+ people to kill 1 player then they probably weren’t that good.

So all those small groups in WvW that fight a d/d thief and cant kill him are bad? All those players that try to kill a shout warrior or bunker guardian in tPvP are bad? I dont think so.

Mayama.1854:

Zacchary.6183:

If it takes 2+ people to kill 1 player then they probably weren’t that good.

So all those small groups in WvW that fight a d/d thief and cant kill him are bad? All those players that try to kill a shout warrior or bunker guardian in tPvP are bad? I dont think so.

If a D/D thief wins an outnumbered fight it is because they are simply better than their opponents. I do win outnumbered fights on my D?D thief, but only if they are obviously not nearly as good as I. If I’m fighting two people and I realize that they are definitely not bad, things get messy. I have a shot at winning, but more of a shot of losing.
D/D /= easy outnumbered win.

Mayama.1854:

Zacchary.6183:

If it takes 2+ people to kill 1 player then they probably weren’t that good.

So all those small groups in WvW that fight a d/d thief and cant kill him are bad? All those players that try to kill a shout warrior or bunker guardian in tPvP are bad? I dont think so.

Usually yeah. But comparing glassy thieves with heavy bunkers doesn’t help your case.

Zacchary.6183:

Mayama.1854:

Zacchary.6183:

If it takes 2+ people to kill 1 player then they probably weren’t that good.

So all those small groups in WvW that fight a d/d thief and cant kill him are bad? All those players that try to kill a shout warrior or bunker guardian in tPvP are bad? I dont think so.

Usually yeah. But comparing glassy thieves with heavy bunkers doesn’t help your case.

All those specs are more or less unkillable in those situations if they dont want to die.

Mayama.1854:

Zacchary.6183:

Mayama.1854:

Zacchary.6183:

If it takes 2+ people to kill 1 player then they probably weren’t that good.

So all those small groups in WvW that fight a d/d thief and cant kill him are bad? All those players that try to kill a shout warrior or bunker guardian in tPvP are bad? I dont think so.

Usually yeah. But comparing glassy thieves with heavy bunkers doesn’t help your case.

All those specs are more or less unkillable in those situations if they dont want to die.

Glass anything is highly killable. Kill faster if you are having problems.

Zacchary.6183:

Mayama.1854:

Zacchary.6183:

Mayama.1854:

Zacchary.6183:

If it takes 2+ people to kill 1 player then they probably weren’t that good.

So all those small groups in WvW that fight a d/d thief and cant kill him are bad? All those players that try to kill a shout warrior or bunker guardian in tPvP are bad? I dont think so.

Usually yeah. But comparing glassy thieves with heavy bunkers doesn’t help your case.

All those specs are more or less unkillable in those situations if they dont want to die.

Glass anything is highly killable. Kill faster if you are having problems.

Yeah of course as long as theirs a wall or critter D/D will not die to anything

Hitman.5829:

Quakeman.9378:

LaronX.8079:

Dodge, move and play the game. Are you kittened or do you only play thief and are blind? Thief s if any class already have a lot of active defenses . You got a kitten load of blinds and jumps and you still moan how to survive. What the hell. UHHH … QQ I actually had to COMMIT to an action like every other class. QQ I can’t kitten up and be instantly gone again. QQ my mistakes actually stick to me QQ .
Seriously. Stop. You clearly don’t know how this game works.

I really am awe struck by the stupidity of this entire statement. I usually try my best to stray away from such statements on the forums, but I’m really getting fed up with unjustified thief QQ. A bad thief will not survive at all period. if my CnDs dont connect due to an extremely wide range of possibilities, I am beyond vulnerable. And mistakes are very noticeable on thief. if I mess up in a fight, there’s a very good chance that it’s going to bite me in the kitten unless I can work around my mistake. Same with other classes, although classes such as warrior and guardian and much more forgiving. And a 10s revealed would completely destroy thief. period. There’s nothing we could do for 10 whole seconds to stay alive w/o stealth like other classes can. it is our means of survival, with he exemption of Evade builds, but people complain about those too.. Seriously, is there anything we can do for you guys to not hate us?

This post is not about stealth, this post is about how thieves have semi-immunity to chill. We want to discuss how thieves should be penalize by this condition. There are various ways that the thief could be penalized for example:

• if the thief is chilled make him deal -xx% damage (if initiative regeneration is not slowed down).
• root the thief and freeze him and make his movement slow down to 100%.
• chill should stop utility skill recharge to +90% or even 100% to compensate for the semi immunity.

Nobody will disagree that there is a problem with chill affecting thieves. Now, consider this hypothetical scenario:

• imagine for a moment if warriors were semi-immune to blind. What if warriors could connect a hit 50/50 even when blinded?

I can think of lots of ways to fix the chill problem; one of the easiest solutions I think would be to get rid off the -xx% skill cool down for ALL classes. That way everyone would be affected by just -66% speed.

Maybe they should take 2000000% more dmg under the effect of chill?

Hitman.5829:

When you interrupt them, their skills do not go on a cool-down and their initiative is not drained.

How did a thread that has already in the very first sentence of the very first post such a huge fail become 3 pages long?