Guild Wars 2

A condition bunker has access to:

toughness
healing power
condition damage

This allows them to be able to be competent in defense and offense. This is imbalanced because power builds to be effective need to invest in critical chance/critical damage and power obligating the player to invest less in healing power or vitality.

Solution:

Introduce a new stat: condition tick speed…and balance the current equipment for it.

To be fair condition stacks should be removed when this change goes live.

Hope this helps

A good amount of condition builds already invest in Precision.

I agree, though; the ones that aren’t forced to (Due to having silly high levels of condition pressure without the need for crit-procs) need to be looked at.

Talyn Sneider.1825:

A conditional bunker has access to:

toughness
healing power
conditional damage

This allows them to be able to be competent in defense and offense. This is imbalanced because power builds to be effective need to invest in critical chance/critical damage and power obligating the player to invest less in healing power or vitality.

Solution:

Introduce a new stat: conditional tick speed…and balance the current equipment for it.

To be fair conditional stacks should be removed when this change goes live.

Hope this helps

Change every instance of conditional in your post and title to condition. They are not the same thing.

Talyn Sneider.1825:

This allows them to be able to be competent in defense and offense. This is imbalanced because power builds to be effective need to invest in critical chance/critical damage and power obligating the player to invest less in healing power or vitality.

Most condition builds has to invist in three stats as well: condition duration, condition damage and precision. There are some builds which don’t and they can be looked furter into.

Tim.6450:

Talyn Sneider.1825:

This allows them to be able to be competent in defense and offense. This is imbalanced because power builds to be effective need to invest in critical chance/critical damage and power obligating the player to invest less in healing power or vitality.

Most condition builds has to invist in three stats as well: condition duration, condition damage and precision. There are some builds which don’t and they can be looked furter into.

Precision is in no way shape or form a required stat for most condition specs to work – it can be advantageous, but it’s not akin to trying to run a power/crit spec without the crit.

Condition duration is also not a stat which needs to be heavily invested in. You can get 30% from a trait line, which is an amazing gain when compared to how helpful the 300 points in stats you have for going 30 points into a trait line.

Totally agree…for me the trait system comes from balancing offense and defense, this is true except for conditional bunkers that can make the following:

Go full bunker with healing power and then their offense/defense ratio is biased since they outlast many other similar damage dealers.

Go conditional damage plus power or precision in that case a conditional dealer is able to semi burst players this is horrendous…because even if you survive the semi burst the conditions will finish you off.

For me the only way this system is still in work is because the whole cap for conditional stack limitation…but even so is a poor solution.

So the only true way to balance this is to remove condition cap and introduce a new stat condition tick speed, this would balance the builds out and still preserve build diversity. Plus it would allow condition builds to exist in pve.

I agree on this topic.

Yeah you maby need some +% duration or precision but duration is easy to get with just 1 trait or food.. Sigil maby.
And precision is by no way that importent for all condition bunker builds compared to power builds.
Also the conditio. Doesnt do only damage but also an effect.
Thats leaves enough stats/space left to build very deffensive.

I see more and more condi bunkers in this game and i really disapprove this playstyle.

And if the condition stack is still impossible to solve (maybe it consums too much memory or too much trafic?) why not place an algorithm that keeps in the stack the conditions with greater damage…less memory, but more processor consumption since it requires more calculations…hope this helps.

Tim.6450:

Talyn Sneider.1825:

This allows them to be able to be competent in defense and offense. This is imbalanced because power builds to be effective need to invest in critical chance/critical damage and power obligating the player to invest less in healing power or vitality.

Most condition builds has to invist in three stats as well: condition duration, condition damage and precision. There are some builds which don’t and they can be looked furter into.

most get precision in the same line as condition damage, you can easily get Condi duration from food and armor sigils.

Samhayn.2385:

Tim.6450:

Talyn Sneider.1825:

This allows them to be able to be competent in defense and offense. This is imbalanced because power builds to be effective need to invest in critical chance/critical damage and power obligating the player to invest less in healing power or vitality.

Most condition builds has to invist in three stats as well: condition duration, condition damage and precision. There are some builds which don’t and they can be looked furter into.

most get precision in the same line as condition damage, you can easily get Condi duration from food and armor sigils.

Indeed, why issnt there +40% crit damage food?
Or my warrior also have +50% bleed duration trait.. Man this would be cool if its 50% crit damage :p

True, but Anet’s system of damage really sucks…

Direct damage:
- Power
- Precision (& Crit chance)
- Crit damage

Condition damage:
- Condition damage
- Condition duration

Both ways have penalties. Direct damage needs to invest in 3 stats. Condition damage on the other damage can be removed, while critical hits can’t be cleansed or anything. Condition damage is also over time and can very easily be nullified by someone with a lot of condition removal, such as mesmers, necros, elementalist and guardians.
That makes condition users very vulnerable.

Sirendor.1394:

True, but Anet’s system of damage really sucks…

Direct damage:
- Power
- Precision (& Crit chance)
- Crit damage

Condition damage:
- Condition damage
- Condition duration

Both ways have penalties. Direct damage needs to invest in 3 stats. Condition damage on the other damage can be removed, while critical hits can’t be cleansed or anything. Condition damage is also over time and can very easily be nullified by someone with a lot of condition removal, such as mesmers, necros, elementalist and guardians.
That makes condition users very vulnerable.

But conditions doesnt do only damage.. There effect are also very good. Onky weakness can counter a powerbuild very hard.. Lets not talj about poison or confusion/torment/chill etc

Sirendor.1394:

True, but Anet’s system of damage really sucks…

Direct damage:
- Power
- Precision (& Crit chance)
- Crit damage

Condition damage:
- Condition damage
- Condition duration

Both ways have penalties. Direct damage needs to invest in 3 stats. Condition damage on the other damage can be removed, while critical hits can’t be cleansed or anything. Condition damage is also over time and can very easily be nullified by someone with a lot of condition removal, such as mesmers, necros, elementalist and guardians.
That makes condition users very vulnerable.

power builds normaly have one key attack that hits hard that can be negated by dodge, blind, aegis, etc.

but yes if Condi gets reworked (even if it doesn’t) there are some key attacks out there that hit way to hard and need the scaling looked at.

I just wish it worked like this.

burst=pow,pre,crit damage
sustain=pow,pre,condi(maybe changed to a %)

then you need to work around these stats and what your willing to give up to mix defense in.

And condition appliers are able to out perform the condition removers, except if the condition remover specs heavily and thus removes himself from being anything else than a condition sponge.

And conditions making damage over time is relative…fear and confusion deal large amounts of damage in a short time rate…either rework this to allow for fewer defensive/offensive support options in builds or just place confusion and fear in a ball like spell flying in the air so players have the option to dodge it.

Be clear that this is about necros and warriors. I tried a bunker thief and I had 10k hps. This really only about easy mode warriors and necros.

this is about all classes that are currently able to pull off the conditional bunker builds:

necros
warriors
mesmers
rangers

And to anyone defending this kind of builds, just go to a build site and see the kind of comments they get:

easy mode
it gets too boring so i changed to power damage
etc…

Talyn Sneider.1825:

And condition appliers are able to out perform the condition removers, except if the condition remover specs heavily and thus removes himself from being anything else than a condition sponge.

And conditions making damage over time is relative…fear and confusion deal large amounts of damage in a short time rate…either rework this to allow for fewer defensive/offensive support options in builds or just place confusion and fear in a ball like spell flying in the air so players have the option to dodge it.

fear doing damage is a trait and does damage relative to burning and can be negated by stability and stun breaks. Confusion has only become a problem due to perplexity runes handing the condition out to classes that normally could never get that many stacks on you at all.

conditions need to be dangerous but only because you build to do damage, condition being dangerous in any spec that also has huge amounts of passive defense is a problem.

Talyn Sneider.1825:

this is about all classes that are currently able to pull off the conditional bunker builds:

necros
warriors
mesmers
rangers

And to anyone defending this kind of builds, just go to a build site and see the kind of comments they get:

easy mode
it gets too boring so i changed to power damage
etc…

Uh, you forgot Engi’s, Guardians, and Ele’s. All of which can pull of some pretty amazing con bunker. (Hell Engi’s are the godfather of the conbunker).

The only class that can’t pull off a very good conbunker is Thief. And their direct damage, and escape mechanics are so good they don’t really need to.

Agree Samhayn, confusion through runes of perplexity is just something that screams for a larger cooldown. Fear and burning traited for damage dealing I don’t have anything against…but if together with that you manage to have large amounts of toughness and healing power or a combination of power/precision that leads to an unfair advantage.

The heaviest strikes in power damage all have large tells, why is it that the most dangerous conditions bypass all active defense and still enable you to have more points to spec into other traits?

The only answer i come up with is because condition builds are limited by the amount of stacks, hence need to have more advantages to be used. And mind me I want condition builds to exist.

So given the information that stacks of conditions is something that won’t change:

1-Increase cooldown of perplexity runes
2-Make Fear and Confusion be dodgeable
3-Make healing power/toughness/vitality decrease condition damage after a set amount
4-Introduce condition tick speed %
5-Introduce utility skills that decrease condition tick speed

This are some ideas to balance condition bunkers, the idea is to present options not to request all 5 of them at the same time…I also have a necro and still want to play him

To Ahlen sorry missed Engis…duhhhh

Are you sure about Guardian’s and Elementalists…they seem to lack the quantity of conditions you’d need to cover the most important ones…hence I left them out on purpose.

Ahlen.7591:

Talyn Sneider.1825:

this is about all classes that are currently able to pull off the conditional bunker builds:

necros
warriors
mesmers
rangers

And to anyone defending this kind of builds, just go to a build site and see the kind of comments they get:

easy mode
it gets too boring so i changed to power damage
etc…

Uh, you forgot Engi’s, Guardians, and Ele’s. All of which can pull of some pretty amazing con bunker. (Hell Engi’s are the godfather of the conbunker).

The only class that can’t pull off a very good conbunker is Thief. And their direct damage, and escape mechanics are so good they don’t really need to.

Guardian condi bunker? Now that’s funny right there.

Mightymealworm.8409:

Ahlen.7591:

Talyn Sneider.1825:

this is about all classes that are currently able to pull off the conditional bunker builds:

necros
warriors
mesmers
rangers

And to anyone defending this kind of builds, just go to a build site and see the kind of comments they get:

easy mode
it gets too boring so i changed to power damage
etc…

Uh, you forgot Engi’s, Guardians, and Ele’s. All of which can pull of some pretty amazing con bunker. (Hell Engi’s are the godfather of the conbunker).

The only class that can’t pull off a very good conbunker is Thief. And their direct damage, and escape mechanics are so good they don’t really need to.

Guardian condi bunker? Now that’s funny right there.

Guardian was literally the ORIGINAL BUNKER in the first few months after release, their con damage is lower than the other conbunkers, but their bunkering is still insanely powerful.

Bunker by itself is not unbalanced…only bunkering with large amounts of damage. The idea I have from guardian’s is that they are in a good spot in balancing more damage = less survivability. Do you agree?

Ahlen.7591:

Mightymealworm.8409:

Ahlen.7591:

Talyn Sneider.1825:

this is about all classes that are currently able to pull off the conditional bunker builds:

necros
warriors
mesmers
rangers

And to anyone defending this kind of builds, just go to a build site and see the kind of comments they get:

easy mode
it gets too boring so i changed to power damage
etc…

Uh, you forgot Engi’s, Guardians, and Ele’s. All of which can pull of some pretty amazing con bunker. (Hell Engi’s are the godfather of the conbunker).

The only class that can’t pull off a very good conbunker is Thief. And their direct damage, and escape mechanics are so good they don’t really need to.

Guardian condi bunker? Now that’s funny right there.

Guardian was literally the ORIGINAL BUNKER in the first few months after release, their con damage is lower than the other conbunkers, but their bunkering is still insanely powerful.

Doesn’t that make them a good bunker but NOT a good condi bunker?

And notice that for me burning with only one cover condition doesn’t make an effective condition bunker build, since at this point most players easily defend themself’s against this. My problem is with build’s that reapply cover condition’s making the heavy damaging ones stick.

So revising the list of condition bunker professions:

Warrior
Necro
Mesmer
Engineer
Ranger

From more dangerous to less (warrior scores that high because not only it has decent conditional damage, perplexity runes + torment + poison + bleeding + weakness + retribution but it also has an insane mobility that the other classes can only achieve, sacrificing utility skills )

A. Condition Bunker Builds don’t do nearly the same damage as Berserker Builds.

B. You’re able to Build Power Based Builds quite easily with good crit/toughness/power ect ect, It requires gear mixing and matching.

C. Those Power Based Builds are effective in multiple area’s of the game, While the Condition Bunkers are really only good at 1v1

A. Not taking into account active defenses like dodging, kitting, protection, aegis etc…etc…which all have far more up times than conditional removal.

B.True you can do so, but you can make much better builds only specking for conditional damage and using the remaining points for let’s say healing power which is really low in all mixed builds.

C. True I completely agree with you, conditional builds should be viable in all areas of the game, but a technical limitation should not be an argument for an imbalance in the classes…a solution is needed so true balance is obtained.

A. Dodging/Aegis affect Conditions just the same as Berserker Builds. You dodge the main Berserker build attack, you don’t take 5k damage, you dodge the main condition attack, you don’t take 3k damage. Protection works against Power Based Builds more though, but since they do so much damage its needed just for them. Condition Removal is kind of the Protection for Conditions, It counters so much damage its silly.

B. Healing Power is only useful if you stack enough regen based abilities, and even then good power based builds with toughness are able to bunker decently enough to make them a threat, For example..The Warriors primarily do Power Based Builds with high toughness/crit damage ect ect that don’t use healing power… Mesmer’s can do it also. one of the main Bunkers for Necro, Minion Master, also uses a power based build with No healing power. Rangers were really the only ones for the longest time that bothered with Apothecary Gear, even now though We’ve dropped apothecary some what more for Dire.

C. Defensive Healing Based characters with some damage have always been powerful in every game when it comes to 1v1. Look at DAOC, some of the most Powerful 1v1 Classes were Valkyries/Reavers/Vampiirs/Valewalkers because they had really good defense and could outlast people quite easily. This will not change..Bunker Builds will always be good at this….There are a few times when you can instantly burst them down…but most of the time, they’re built to outlast and will be good for 1v1.

To be fair I don’t feel this picture is accurate.

Almost all power builds good ones anyway skimp on power or precision because they make it up with might stacks or fury almost every power build does this. Just to keep it a honest discussion here.

Condi bunkers like Xsorus said are good in 1v1’s almost all of them can be ignored and walked away from with Necro’s probably being the the only real threat. If we are talking about apothecary a Necro can pull it off with points in BM but you can definitely walk away from a apothecary Necro.

Dire Necro’s are only really tanky if they go deep in DM I run 20 DM on my necro and it still is pretty squishy since there isn’t really much sustain to stay topped off and there are no blocks.

Condi bunkers are annoying to fight and most of them require you to walk into marks, traps, kill clones, caltrops, standing in burning from combustive shot, basically killing yourself. The necro and maybe a P/d dire thief are the only ones really threatening if you try to ignore them. Even S/S warriors with Bow can be ignored as long as you don’t eat a pindown.

Next time you duel a condi bunker run around and see how long you can live just healing up and using cleanses.

A. True nice catch but even so, the largest damaging skills for power builds have larger tells, meaning that it is much more likely for you to dodge/aegis against those moves.

B. True, healing signet comes to mind but in a long fight it indeed improves your efective health pool, giving you a clear advantage. Even If you go the hybrid way and place more precision and power this would mean you have more stat points than a power player to spend…this is not balance, this is a workaround to the abuse of power damage rulling over gw2. It’s like saying let’s give an unfair advantage to condition builds so people take them into the meta.

C. If you’re talking about min maxed characters with lot’s of thought into them I agree they should have an advantage. But that is not the case in GW2 it’s easy to make a condition build and then stack every stat point left into healing power…it’s so easy most players do so for duels and after a while grow bored of it (easy mode) and go to power builds so they get to have though fights.

Summing up what I’d like is for some sugestions of this post:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/To-clear-the-air-about-Berserker/page/5#post3494989

to decrease power damage dominant meta and for something to be done regarding condition stacks, which could lead to true balance of condition bunkers.

oZii.2864:

To be fair I don’t feel this picture is accurate.

Almost all power builds good ones anyway skimp on power or precision because they make it up with might stacks or fury almost every power build does this. Just to keep it a honest discussion here.

Condi bunkers like Xsorus said are good in 1v1’s almost all of them can be ignored and walked away from with Necro’s probably being the the only real threat. If we are talking about apothecary a Necro can pull it off with points in BM but you can definitely walk away from a apothecary Necro.

Dire Necro’s are only really tanky if they go deep in DM I run 20 DM on my necro and it still is pretty squishy since there isn’t really much sustain to stay topped off and there are no blocks.

Well of course there is sacrifice in power based bunker builds, just like there is in Condition Based Bunker Builds.

Apothecary Gear is Healing Power Primary stat, meaning it has lower condition damage then Rabid Gear

Precision is actually used in Condition Based Builds… By going Apothecary and/or Dire, I cannot use Sigil of Earth and Sigil of Torment, These are very high damage sigils with precision. I can’t use the bleed trait in Skirmishing either because I don’t crit often.

So Bunkers do give up potential Condition Damage.

evilapprentice.6379:

Precision is in no way shape or form a required stat for most condition specs to work – it can be advantageous, but it’s not akin to trying to run a power/crit spec without the crit.

Condition duration is also not a stat which needs to be heavily invested in. You can get 30% from a trait line, which is an amazing gain when compared to how helpful the 300 points in stats you have for going 30 points into a trait line.

first precision is required for a dhuumfire/fear necromancer to work. Secondly if we trait for 30% condition duration we’re also stuck with 300 power which is kinda useless on top of that the traits in that line are mostly power orientated.

nicknamenick.2437:

Indeed, why issnt there +40% crit damage food?
Or my warrior also have +50% bleed duration trait.. Man this would be cool if its 50% crit damage :p

There is no 40% crit damage food because a critical hit already give 50% damage bonus, Also there exist -40% condition duration food.

Talyn Sneider.1825:

And condition appliers are able to out perform the condition removers, except if the condition remover specs heavily and thus removes himself from being anything else than a condition sponge.

And conditions making damage over time is relative…fear and confusion deal large amounts of damage in a short time rate…either rework this to allow for fewer defensive/offensive support options in builds or just place confusion and fear in a ball like spell flying in the air so players have the option to dodge it.

Of course do condition aplliers outperform condition removal. Otherwise would it be like saying that high toughness should make you imune to normal damage. Fear only does damage because we trait for it on top of that fear is easily countered by either condition removal or stun breakers/stability. Confusion on the other hand can easily be countered by not attacking: it is your own choice.

Talyn Sneider.1825:

Fear and burning traited for damage dealing I don’t have anything against…but if together with that you manage to have large amounts of toughness and healing power or a combination of power/precision that leads to an unfair advantage.

The heaviest strikes in power damage all have large tells, why is it that the most dangerous conditions bypass all active defense and still enable you to have more points to spec into other traits?

If you trait for fear and burning then you will have actually no trait points left to spend. So having a large amount of healing power comes at the price of burning since you have to drop precision and having power/prec and cond damage comes at the price of any defense on top of that most condition weapons don’t scale well with power.

Terravos.4059:

oZii.2864:

To be fair I don’t feel this picture is accurate.

Almost all power builds good ones anyway skimp on power or precision because they make it up with might stacks or fury almost every power build does this. Just to keep it a honest discussion here.

Condi bunkers like Xsorus said are good in 1v1’s almost all of them can be ignored and walked away from with Necro’s probably being the the only real threat. If we are talking about apothecary a Necro can pull it off with points in BM but you can definitely walk away from a apothecary Necro.

Dire Necro’s are only really tanky if they go deep in DM I run 20 DM on my necro and it still is pretty squishy since there isn’t really much sustain to stay topped off and there are no blocks.

Well of course there is sacrifice in power based bunker builds, just like there is in Condition Based Bunker Builds.

Apothecary Gear is Healing Power Primary stat, meaning it has lower condition damage then Rabid Gear

Precision is actually used in Condition Based Builds… By going Apothecary and/or Dire, I cannot use Sigil of Earth and Sigil of Torment, These are very high damage sigils with precision. I can’t use the bleed trait in Skirmishing either because I don’t crit often.

So Bunkers do give up potential Condition Damage.

Yea I agree that precision is important to some condi based builds but not all. You can mix in some apothecary into a P/D thief build for example the only downside is lower hp then if you go dire but you can get about 17k with dire gear, giver weaps, apoth trinkets. Shadow’s rejuvenation scaling isn’t to bad.

Necros’ don’t have to have the precision since fury procs when you go into DS. I only have 20% on my necro enough for dhuumfire procs, bleed on crit isn’t a big deal since its 66% chance.

Mesmer pu condi definitely needs precision for bleed on crits.

Not familiar with warrior condi builds I don’t see a need for them to build crit since the arms tree is crit, you can extend bleed 50% with trait, you have SOR which should be enough to proc bleeds on crits.

Most condition build players overkill anyway. Stack so many conditions using up cd’s when they have enough damage loaded up to kill the person if they where patient and kept important cd’s for emergencies. It would be like me using a fire grab on a enemy with 200 hp in a 2v1 when I could save that for the other guy.

A. Most of the Large Attacks from Power Based builds are telegraphed because they instantly kill you. Take my Backstab thief, I’m awful on him…He’s not telegraphed to easy. Anything past 1v1 I lose horribly…Even 1v1 fights i don’t do so great if you dodge my main attack because I have sustain. However I can 1 shot pretty much every single build in the game in a split second unless they’re full bunker, and if a bunker is below 80% life, it means instant death..This means if I come across a bunker fighting someone else, I can instantly pop on them and kill them. That is why those moves are highly telegraphed… Because they do absurd damage.

B. Most Power Based Warriors even zerker use Healing Signet, Most people don’t go Apothecary anymore..It primary is Healing Power, and unless you have a lot of regen based abilities, its not as good as Dire.

C. Healing Power Based Builds require you to have proper regen based setups, For example.. I keep enough healing power in my build to give me 900 HP per second on Trolls. Even then you still won’t see Healing Power used in Builds a lot anymore compared to Dire. Mainly because of Conditions which is hilarious part of it… Go Try a healing power based build of apothecary and fight a Condition Necro and come back and tell me how well you do. There is a reason I opted for 5k more health from picking up more dire pieces.

Warriors use Rabid on their Longbow/S and S Build.. P/D thieves, you don’t use Apothecary primarily, You can do Dire Setup, or you can do a Shamans (HP/Vit/Condition) with Apothecary Jewels on your Shamans, I actually ran that setup for the longest time and actually prefer it even today, Though I do have a Full Dire setup also mianly used for Venoms.

I run a Rabid Build on Necro, you have 20k HP which is usually enough, and sigil of earth + torment is silly.

are we here talking about pve/wvw or spvp? In spvp i rarely see bunker condi specs (running settlers amulet). For Rangers it is maybe more commen but all the other professions normally run carrion or rabid. And i wouldnt say that those amulets are bunker amulets…

Tim.6450:

Condition duration is also not a stat which needs to be heavily invested in. You can get 30% from a trait line, which is an amazing gain when compared to how helpful the 300 points in stats you have for going 30 points into a trait line.

first precision is required for a dhuumfire/fear necromancer to work. Secondly if we trait for 30% condition duration we’re also stuck with 300 power which is kinda useless on top of that the traits in that line are mostly power orientated.

There is no 40% crit damage food because a critical hit already give 50% damage bonus, Also there exist -40% condition duration food.

Of course do condition aplliers outperform condition removal. Otherwise would it be like saying that high toughness should make you imune to normal damage. Fear only does damage because we trait for it on top of that fear is easily countered by either condition removal or stun breakers/stability. Confusion on the other hand can easily be countered by not attacking: it is your own choice.

If you trait for fear and burning then you will have actually no trait points left to spend. So having a large amount of healing power comes at the price of burning since you have to drop precision and having power/prec and cond damage comes at the price of any defense on top of that most condition weapons don’t scale well with power.

Don’t agree with this

You only need a crit to proc dhuumfire you don’t have to have high crit chance to proc dhuum it is guaranteed. So with fury in DS from curses Dhuum procs more then enough. You can crit every 10 seconds with just 25% crit chance. You have 20 points left over after you grab dhuumfire and terror. Your building a condition damage build anyway those aren’t wasted points.

20 can go into BM for tanky minion build extra vit, DM for staff recharge and unblockable marks along with toughness, SR for more life force, shorter dhum recharge and 100% fear duration if you run standard terrormancer,

Unless you feel 30 DM, 30 BM, and 30 SR is that important and has traits that are much better then dhuumfire it isn’t like your hurting for trait points. The only attractive 30 point trait I would take in a condi build on my necro besides dhuumfire is foot in the grave. The rest of them aren’t better then dhuumfire.

I run condi thief. Dire weps and armor, apoth accessories… with healing from venoms and steal, its pretty nice. I don’t use any stealth less its cloak and dagger, but the 400hp a second heal, and condi removal from that is awesome… then Shadow Step getting rid of the scary condi’s I do feel pretty tanky… anyways what were we talking about? condi’s are NOT op! I got flack when i used back stab, now i go condi, and i get flack for that too. ima start running sentinel’s on my thief

Talyn Sneider.1825:

A condition bunker has access to:

toughness
healing power
condition damage

This allows them to be able to be competent in defense and offense. This is imbalanced because power builds to be effective need to invest in critical chance/critical damage and power obligating the player to invest less in healing power or vitality.

Solution:

Introduce a new stat: condition tick speed…and balance the current equipment for it.

To be fair condition stacks should be removed when this change goes live.

Hope this helps

You make quite some assumption here. You assume power builds need zerker to be good damage. Yet when we look at a condition build going full rampager, which is the glasscannon equivalent for condition builds, it has no where close to the same killing power.

People jump to this conclusion far to easily, because 3 stats boost direct-damage it must mean direct-damage is balanced around having all these 3 stats. Its not.

Secondly you also assume that only condition damage works for condition builds. Again completely false. I also need precision to proc one of several traits, and possibly also sigils/runes, to get more conditions. Not to mention it boosts my limited direct-damage aswell.
My damage will suffer greatly if i’d lose all my crit-chance. Something like a condition mesmer duelist build is highly dependant on precision to even work, aswell as the condition damage to boost the bleeds damage.

And then there is condition-duration, another important stat. Not available on most gear, it still has a big impact for condition builds. Something that is runed for, or something for weapons aswell as foodbuffs/trait stats.
So look at that, 3 stats to boost condition builds, whatdayaknow.

I have mixed feelings on the subject really. On the surface the arguement against conditions bunkers makes a lot of sense, but really looking at how WvW operates I dont really see a problem. Group fights are still totally dominated by physical damage, with conditions mostly playing a supportive role in the fight, so I am not sure why physical damage should dominate roaming as well. Its like to have a mix.

Even ignoring whether or not I agree with the OP, its not as simple as just making conditions depend on 3 stats like physical attacks do. If you do do that, you have to allow for people to take conditions to the insane extreme (the equivalent of a thief going full berserker and BSing for 20k). If you take away bunkering from conditions builds, you must allow them to be played in all the ways thay physical damage builds currently can, which means necros (taking them to be the condition equivalent of thieves) need to be able to completely floor someone in 1-2 hits with conditions.

Also then think.. every attack does physical damage.. if you’re really trying to enforce the same rules physical damage have onto condition damage, are people hapyp with every single attack in the game applying a condition?

I just dont think the solution people are suggesting is really a solution. Its poorly thought out and unfair on condition builds, even if there is a current problem with condition bunkers.

Ahlen.7591:

Talyn Sneider.1825:

this is about all classes that are currently able to pull off the conditional bunker builds:

necros
warriors
mesmers
rangers

And to anyone defending this kind of builds, just go to a build site and see the kind of comments they get:

easy mode
it gets too boring so i changed to power damage
etc…

Uh, you forgot Engi’s, Guardians, and Ele’s. All of which can pull of some pretty amazing con bunker. (Hell Engi’s are the godfather of the conbunker).

The only class that can’t pull off a very good conbunker is Thief. And their direct damage, and escape mechanics are so good they don’t really need to.

Guardians have no condition build.

Cufufalating.8479:

I have mixed feelings on the subject really. On the surface the arguement against conditions bunkers makes a lot of sense, but really looking at how WvW operates I dont really see a problem. Group fights are still totally dominated by physical damage, with conditions mostly playing a supportive role in the fight, so I am not sure why physical damage should dominate roaming as well. Its like to have a mix.

Even ignoring whether or not I agree with the OP, its not as simple as just making conditions depend on 3 stats like physical attacks do. If you do do that, you have to allow for people to take conditions to the insane extreme (the equivalent of a thief going full berserker and BSing for 20k). If you take away bunkering from conditions builds, you must allow them to be played in all the ways thay physical damage builds currently can, which means necros (taking them to be the condition equivalent of thieves) need to be able to completely floor someone in 1-2 hits with conditions.

Also then think.. every attack does physical damage.. if you’re really trying to enforce the same rules physical damage have onto condition damage, are people hapyp with every single attack in the game applying a condition?

I just dont think the solution people are suggesting is really a solution. Its poorly thought out and unfair on condition builds, even if there is a current problem with condition bunkers.

IF the person speced for a Condi build was nearly as glassy as a full dps thief then yes TTK (time to kill) should be around the same. This also means that full glass power builds may need to get brought down a little also. Honestly ttk maybe a little to fast in general.

Aza.2105:

Ahlen.7591:

Talyn Sneider.1825:

this is about all classes that are currently able to pull off the conditional bunker builds:

necros
warriors
mesmers
rangers

And to anyone defending this kind of builds, just go to a build site and see the kind of comments they get:

easy mode
it gets too boring so i changed to power damage
etc…

Uh, you forgot Engi’s, Guardians, and Ele’s. All of which can pull of some pretty amazing con bunker. (Hell Engi’s are the godfather of the conbunker).

The only class that can’t pull off a very good conbunker is Thief. And their direct damage, and escape mechanics are so good they don’t really need to.

Guardians have no condition build.

Neither can eles, with access to 1-2 conditions at a time in any element, most of which are short duration, not to mention only two damaging conditions.