Guild Wars 2

Julie Yann.5379:

@Burr

You can always going might stacking power bunker with 6 points in tactics for either healing banners or shouts. You can have enough cleansing and health o deal with conditions, enough armor to tank direct damage and still do more than enough damage to kill others with might stacks.

I have messed around with that a bit, it’s kinda fun but now I see more and more boon stealing/corruption being used so you can end up regreting it. Nothing more annoying than a S/D Thief with 25 stacks of might.

BurrTheKing.8571:

There are some decent changes, but they are overshadowed by how imbalanced condis are compared to power. Power has to invest in Power, precision, and ferocity in order to deal damage. Conditions on the other hand just need condition damage to be effective. Some need Precision to get on crit prots but nowhere near as much. Duration is not a problem because either you can constantly reapply the conditions or you can use runes and sigils to pick of the slack.

I fail to see how condition damage is not benefited from condition duration, as it can increase condition damage, literally by 100%. As well, is the case of grenade engineer for example, with the conditions that proc on condition with sigils and traits, it is already shown in previous threads that the difference between a 4% crit chance (the base) and a 47% crit chance is 27% damage increase based on the increased up time in such procs.

Yer a soldiers gear engineer with grenade kit will out damage a dire gear engineer with grenade kit by 11.7%. Only 2 grenades have condition damage in any form, and one was nerfed by 40% in the last update. (I used grenade kit because you specifically ranted about it two other threads)

I challenge you to prove in any way, how the MH pistol (only MH conition weapon avaliable to the profession) and its conditions are OP in any way.

I play PvP and WvW about equally, I guess I could have made that more clear but things feel about the same in both: tanky condi users. And yes, I was playing last night because I don’t want to totally quit only a few days after the parch, but my initially impression is still negative. There are some decent changes, but they are overshadowed by how imbalanced condis are compared to power. Power has to invest in Power, precision, and ferocity in order to deal damage. Conditions on the other hand just need condition damage to be effective. Some need Precision to get on crit prots but nowhere near as much. Duration is not a problem because either you can constantly reapply the conditions or you can use runes and sigils to pick of the slack.

There are still some viable power builds, but players are quickly making the switch to condis because they are easier to play and offer less risk. PvP feels even less skill-based now, just dump red circles on the circle. I don’t mind WvW as much but that’s only because I’ve accepted that the PvE elements mean it will NEVER be balanced. [/quote]
Well, in PvP conditions are nowhere out of hand and, as a Warrior, you are supposed to have no problem whatsoever to cleanse damaging conditions.
Also, power in PvP is not overshadowed by conditions, not even close.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Julie Yann.5379:

@Burr

You can always going might stacking power bunker with 6 points in tactics for either healing banners or shouts. You can have enough cleansing and health o deal with conditions, enough armor to tank direct damage and still do more than enough damage to kill others with might stacks.

I have messed around with that a bit, it’s kinda fun but now I see more and more boon stealing/corruption being used so you can end up regreting it. Nothing more annoying than a S/D Thief with 25 stacks of might.

Well, we can’t have everything at once.

Necro here, I agree fully with the OP I was running a deathshroud flash build that worked amazingly up until the patch. Now i’ve switched over to condition necro because I simply couldn’t break though the bunker condi burst builds. Prior to the patch my shroud flash would snag 5 kills a game easy… My condition necro is now scoring 9 to 10 plus with no issues what so ever. It really upsets me because being a mm from birth I rather detested conditions. I guess it’s adapt or quit sadly.

That is odd. After the updated I swapped my necro from condition to direct damage, and am thriving at an easier pace then before. I started using a Power, D/D, well build and started destroying point bunkers. Poor engineer’, I can almost here their screams through my speakers as they are staring in befuddlement at the death screen and seeing power necro attacks.

Power has to trait into 3 conditions to get decent damage. Condition builds can get duration from runes, sigils, and traits. There is no armor set that offers +Condi Dmg +Perc and +Condi Duration because they do not need it. Condition builds do not have to specialize nearly as much. You also cannot just take traits into account because with the runes and sigil changes it is very easy to get additional conditions.

Even with Warriors’ high amount of condi removal there’s no countering a team of condi users dropping a constant flood of red circles on a capture point. As soon as Zerker Stance runs out you’re going to have ever condi in the game on you and the second you clear it it’s going to be reapplied. Individually you can take care of them with control but when they are together there’s no way to deal with so many conditions being constantly placed on what you are trying to cap. A big part of this has to deal with the fact that the capture point system of PvP is poorly designed. The points are far too small and most AoE’s take up the whole area. PvP is going to stay in it’s currently casual state if things remain as they are. Who wants to watch players spam circles onto another circle all game?

It’s not healthy for the game to promote such boring gameplay. I can’t really blame players for running Double Engi, Necro, Thief, and Guard in TPvP because those three AoE users are going to be able to not only stay alive for a long time but also be able to deny the cap for a long time. I can’t think of a single condi build that is “hard” to play. Many AoEs are unblockable or linger for a long time. It’s also possible to “burst” with them which is something I don’t think should exist.

I would like to see one of two things happen. Either the capture points in PvP have to be made large enough so that you can avoid AoE conditions, or the size of the AoEs need to shrink in PvP so that they require more precision to use. A combination of the two would make fights feel less like a cluster**** and spectators can actually see what’s going on. If ANet still wants GW2 to be some sort of Esport then they have to make comp PvP interesting to watch, which means being able to see more of a point than a absurd collection of particle effects.

Those who say PvP isn’t overrun by conditions must not be playing that much are they’re getting very lucky. I played a hours of TPvP post patch and most organized teams had at least 3 condition users on their team. Engi is now one of the most common classes I see now.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Power has to trait into 3 conditions to get decent damage. Condition builds can get duration from runes, sigils, and traits. There is no armor set that offers +Condi Dmg +Perc and +Condi Duration because they do not need it. Condition builds do not have to specialize nearly as much. You also cannot just take traits into account because with the runes and sigil changes it is very easy to get additional conditions.

Direct damage builds do not “have” to do anything. Both damage types have 3 stats to invest in to maximize damage.

As to the three stats for condition damage, indeed there is no gear with that combination. Thus, weapons, sigils, traits, trait lines, and runes must be invested in.

The problem is that you have never tested damage comparison between gear sets, so you personally appear to be unaware of the facts relative to damage out put.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Even with Warriors’ high amount of condi removal there’s no countering a team of condi users dropping a constant flood of red circles on a capture point. As soon as Zerker Stance runs out you’re going to have ever condi in the game on you and the second you clear it it’s going to be reapplied. Individually you can take care of them with control but when they are together there’s no way to deal with so many conditions being constantly placed on what you are trying to cap. A big part of this has to deal with the fact that the capture point system of PvP is poorly designed. The points are far too small and most AoE’s take up the whole area. PvP is going to stay in it’s currently casual state if things remain as they are. Who wants to watch players spam circles onto another circle all game?

I’ll try to explain to you how conditions are not a problem in their current state.

Condition are designed to put heavy pressure on clustered places, that’s why most of them are AoE. The issue here is that your Whole team is standing still on the node, while you just need one person to stand there to prevent the cap. Most competent team just leave the guardian or the spirit ranger who can easily survive to the AoE and conditions while professions capable of dealing high damage (Thief or Warrior) stand out of the node seeking for the professions who apply conditions who are usually extremely squishy.

You can take out a condition engineer or a condition necromancer just by sending out a thief or a warrior chasing him and you’ll realize that he can’t properly apply conditions on a node anymore if he’s forced to use his defensive cooldowns to survive the burst of the guy who is focusing him. That’s how most people deal with conditions.

Of course if you leave that grenade engineers or condition necro untouched on that ledge doing his dirty job while standing in 3 on a node, your Whole team is going to wipe hard, but that’s what it is supposed to do. You played badly, your team failed to properly pressure the most dangerous target and you die.
It is all fine to me.

And that’s the only situations in which condition builds are a real threat, because in any other situations (1v1 or 2v2 fights), they are completely worthless as they just die once they are focused.

So my suggestion is the following:
1. Try to just put a single, tanky profession on a node who can survive the conditions (like guardian). If the pressure is going to be too harsh, that guardian can easily rotate with another tanky profession (warrior in berserker stance, for instance) on the node or just leave it freecap for a couple of seconds, just to regain health and come back to contest it. He just needs to survive enough time for the burst profession of the team to catch up on the condi applier.
2. Always focus the condition guy first. Once he has the team focus on, he can’t properly apply condition and he eventually dies because most of them don’t have enough defenses. A single thief chasing the condi guys is enough to completely shut him down.
3. If someone gets downed, don’t ress unless you have defensive cooldown on you, as the cleave will be so high that both of you (the resser and the downed guy) are going to die. Be sure to first have the cleavers shutted down before ressing.

That’s it. This is how I deal with conditions and I have no problem whatsoever with them.

You two can defend conditions all you want, but from I’ve heard from sitting in the Heart of the Mists a large number of players don’t find 3 condi teams fun to fight. You can try to justisfy how it’s balanced but that will not change the fact that it still boils down to dropping circles on another circle.

You also seem to assume that I’m ALWAYS losing to these teams when I’m not. I made a Mace/Shield + GS build that is specifically designed to lock down condi builds. That still doesn’t change that the game feels much less skill based now. The number of PvP players plummeted the last time condis were the meta. It would take a good 10+ minutes just to find an opponent for TPvP because all the good players left.

Right now we see so many players because of the new reward system that everyone is keen on trying. The rewards are actually really good, I’ve gotten an ascended ring and armor piece already. Once people get their fill there’s a good chance they’ll get tired of it. Also, sure you can send someone after the condi user but that means you have one less there to capture. Not to mention MANY maps have hills/overlooks that reuire going out of your way to reach.

I really hope they don’t look at/buff cleansing as much as they look at/nerf condi application potential. Unfortunately I think buffing cleansing would be the “easier” route, and may be what they take.

Arms races in balance make me sad.

Well here is a neat list of what I feel are some of the big issues with GW2, exacerbated by the current patch and meta. This is also just a small selection of the complaints I have heard on TS repeatedly during WvW and why people are deciding to not bother until/IF some of these things get a look-see, or even an acknowledgement.

• Crappy combat log that doesn’t include heals, conditions or some NPC abilities
• Huge disparity on downed mechanic abilities across classes (just make them all uniform already)
• Rally mechanic
• Stackable CC with limited access to immunity
• Massive, ranged AoE circles that pulse condition spam
• Immobilise bug that still hasn’t been fixed (doing /dance in the middle of a fight doesn’t count as a “fix”, folks)
• Gear sets that maximise defense AND offense in regards to conditions
• Forcing people to spec for max condition removal and limiting build diversity
• Uneven access to heals and heal power scaling
• Stealth mechanic (forcing thieves to perma hide in stealth as the only reliable option for condi removal and extra heals, limiting build diversity and frustrating opponents)
• Unevenly scaled food bonuses (+/- condi duration for example)
• Insane access to extra conditions and duration via runes and sigils
• Lack of response to ongoing issues across game (unless it’s Gem related)
• Arbitrary server transfer decisions
• The state of WvW in general

One hopes for reasonable further discussion. But then one is quite mad.

PS: Even Rift’s PvP and its shocking lack of development is looking sexier atm.

Edited to include my long-term pet-peeves of downed mechanic and combat log.

As a guardian main, I’m in the same boat.

Guardians had 2 builds for pvp, burst and bunker

Burst was lowered and won’t out-sustain the new condi meta… bunkers do zero dmg leaving these guys to just bomb you like crazy.

Ok..Im not gona lie..
I did not read the OP..(sorry?)

But I would like to permanently acquire your belongings in the form of materials, gold or other stuff of valuable mention.

please..

BurrTheKing.8571:

You two can defend conditions all you want, but from I’ve heard from sitting in the Heart of the Mists a large number of players don’t find 3 condi teams fun to fight. You can try to justisfy how it’s balanced but that will not change the fact that it still boils down to dropping circles on another circle.

You also seem to assume that I’m ALWAYS losing to these teams when I’m not. I made a Mace/Shield + GS build that is specifically designed to lock down condi builds. That still doesn’t change that the game feels much less skill based now. The number of PvP players plummeted the last time condis were the meta. It would take a good 10+ minutes just to find an opponent for TPvP because all the good players left.

Right now we see so many players because of the new reward system that everyone is keen on trying. The rewards are actually really good, I’ve gotten an ascended ring and armor piece already. Once people get their fill there’s a good chance they’ll get tired of it. Also, sure you can send someone after the condi user but that means you have one less there to capture. Not to mention MANY maps have hills/overlooks that reuire going out of your way to reach.

No competent team is running 3 condi teams right now as far I know and the meta is nowhere condi-centric as it was after the june patch.
Necromancers aren’t able to condi-burst someone as they used to and engineers are Always the same: lethal if left untouched, pretty squishy when focused down.

You can argue what you want on how condis take no skill in your opinion, but fact is that all condi professions are squishy and the real skills is to have a good positioning and to survive the enemy focus. Any competent team will just shut down the condi profession in a matter of seconds.

If you know how to counter condis and if you don’t lose to them, why are you arguing here that they are an issue? It really looks like that you want them removed from the game just because.
I’m not arguing that PU mesmers should be removed from sPvP as they aren’t an issue, still that build is skill-less and annoying as kitten but it doesn’t provide any meaningful contribution to the team.
Same applies to MM, they are brainded as kitten but I won’t complain about them since a little bit of AoE and kiting will just shut down the build.
What about condi thieves? They can pretty much win any 1vs1 and are easy to play, but who cares if you can just ignore them and win the node?

You know how to counter condi profession, you have no problem winning against them, so why are you here complaining? Is that because you feel so skillful with your warrior that you feel entitled to claim what is skillful and has the right to remain in the game and what is skill-less and should be erased asap?

Come on…

Also, FYI, you just need one person to cap a node, not to say that a thief or any burst profession is never supposed to stand on a node considering how squishy they are.

Also, I don’t think that a thief has any problem to get through Hills/overlooks.
In Foefire it is easy as kitten to get on the ledge.
In Forest, you just need to send the thief on the back way to intercept the enemy necro (you are supposed to know that the necro/engi will be there at start or any moment).
In temple, you just need a couple of jumps to get on the safe ledge.
In kyhlo, you just need to shadow step out of the clock tower.

I don’t see how it is difficult for a thief to chase and lock down a condi profession.

I am against the current design of conditions because they dumb down the game in addition to making it uninteresting to spectate. ANet has been pushing the Esports things pretty hard (Tourney of Legends) and this kind of gameplay will not makes people want to tune in and watch. What are they going to see? A massive cluster of particle effects on a tiny circle that makes it very difficult to tell what is going on.

What people find interesting to watch is of course going to vary from person to person, but I don’t know many people that like it. I suggest you go into the Heart of the Mists and ask people what they think about conditions. When I did I got a tidal wave of negative opinions. Balanced or not, conditions are not conducive to enjoyable gameplay for a lot of people.

Also, not every class has access to the cleanse reguired to beat a condi user. These players, some of which poster on this forum, have decided that “if you can’t beat them, join them.” This is going to lead to some classes feeling like they HAVE to go condis and try to wear them down before they get worn down themselves. I don’t know WHERE you get off saying that condi classes are squishy, especially Necro. Even Engi has Elixir S and the block on Tool kit in addition to getting protection whenever they are hit by a control skill.

Conditions were better designed in GW1. It was only possible to have so many pips of health draining at one time so it was ineffective to have several condi-focused players on your team. The current stack cap is so high in PvP/WvW it’s perfectly viable to have more than one condi class on your team.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’ve heard from sitting in the Heart of the Mists a large number of players don’t find 3 condi teams fun to fight.

Do you have a list of names? I mean I can sit here and say that I have personally transferred to all 56 WvW servers between NA and EU and I hear 90% of the players on each WvW made state with glee that they love condition battles. It has just as much to support it as fact as your claims do.

You two can defend conditions all you want

Us two? I just counted the amount of separate posters in your thread. 74% of theme either specifically say they have no issue with condition as they are, or say something entirely off topic. Only 26% of the different posters actually mention a dislike or need for a change in condition in any way similarly to yourself.

Just because you make 70% of the post here doesn’t mean more posters agree with you. It simply means you can re-post the same opinion over and over while refusing to add constructive discussion or a logical reasoning for your position.

BurrTheKing.8571:

from I’ve heard from sitting in the Heart of the Mists a large number of players don’t find 3 condi teams fun to fight. You can try to justisfy how it’s balanced but that will not change the fact that it still boils down to dropping circles on another circle.

Ahh, I see. So as an opponent, Your suggesting I am responsible for your fun level while I kick your tail in a fight. Brilliant balancing concept.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I am against the current design of conditions because they dumb down the game in addition to making it uninteresting to spectate.

How? You have been asked to explain your blunt statements, but you offer no logical explaination. It is funny, you actually expect everyone to take your opinion as cannon.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, not every class has access to the cleanse reguired to beat a condi user.

Umm, yes, they do. I personally leveled each of the 8 professions in WvW. I know for a fact that they all have the capability to beat full condition users. Do not try to tell us that because you fail at doing do on some professions gives you the right to tell us we do as well.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I am against the current design of conditions because they dumb down the game in addition to making it uninteresting to spectate. ANet has been pushing the Esports things pretty hard (Tourney of Legends) and this kind of gameplay will not makes people want to tune in and watch. What are they going to see? A massive cluster of particle effects on a tiny circle that makes it very difficult to tell what is going on.

What people find interesting to watch is of course going to vary from person to person, but I don’t know many people that like it. I suggest you go into the Heart of the Mists and ask people what they think about conditions. When I did I got a tidal wave of negative opinions. Balanced or not, conditions are not conducive to enjoyable gameplay for a lot of people.

Also, not every class has access to the cleanse reguired to beat a condi user. These players, some of which poster on this forum, have decided that “if you can’t beat them, join them.” This is going to lead to some classes feeling like they HAVE to go condis and try to wear them down before they get worn down themselves. I don’t know WHERE you get off saying that condi classes are squishy, especially Necro. Even Engi has Elixir S and the block on Tool kit in addition to getting protection whenever they are hit by a control skill.

Conditions were better designed in GW1. It was only possible to have so many pips of health draining at one time so it was ineffective to have several condi-focused players on your team. The current stack cap is so high in PvP/WvW it’s perfectly viable to have more than one condi class on your team.

Well, the problem of being bad to watch has nothing to deal with condition as it is a problem entirely related to AI entities.

You don’t really have to like conditions, you just have to deal with them as it is a game mechanic. Nobody in GW1 liked hexway, double SF elementalists or tainted necro because they were extremely annoying, but as soon as the skill level rises, you realize that those build become easily counterable by just spreading out on the field. That is pretty much what happens with conditions.

Conditions, in fact, in their current state encourage careful play and positioning awareness which is something much needed in this game. I wouldn’t like if I were able to walk on a node with a squishy build and get out alive without any risk, I am supposed to balance the risk of getting a lot of conditions by getting on a node and take my positioning into consideration when planning to burst someone down. I can imagine berserker thieves and warrior dishing out massive cleave carelessly on a node if there wasn’t any risk associated of staying in the fight for too long carelessly.

Also, despite what people say, condition engineers and necromancers are extremely susceptible to focus. Both have no disengage tools, while Necromancer lacks real damage mitigation options excluding DS (consider that condition necros usually have really poor LF regen) and engineer usually lacks any form of stunbreaker when running condition + double block. It is worthless to pursue the argument of condi users not being squishy because they definitely are.

Consider that if you know that you don’t have the tools to beat a condi profession, then you simply shouldn’t engagé a 1vs1 against him. You should just send a D/D triple cantrip ele against them or, maybe, a warrior which just wrecks them.
When you’re talking about teamfights, then the professions who haven’t the tools to survive to conditions then they usually don’t have the tools to stand on a node too, so the best way to play is to just stand out of it instead of walking in it carelessly and then complaining that you’re too squishy to survive there.
Keep in mind that those professions are usually the profession who dish out considerable amount of damage and are easily capable of burst down a condition user in a matter of seconds if well played.
A mesmer shatter, for instance, is capable to deal insane amount of damages who can easily kill a necromancer or an engineer with no problem, same applies for a thief burst.

Monkey, you’re really overstating how many people are indifferent or OK with condis in this thread. Doing a quick scan I see 15+ posts saying that they agree with me in some way with around 5-6 repeated posters who disagree. Spend some time reading the meaningful posts in HotM and you’ll find even more people dissatisfied with things.

You are not responsible for my enjoyment, but a good mechanic should be enjoyable to not only play but to play against as well. Condis are rarely “fun” to play against, the enjoyment is one sided. I don’t claim to be guiltless in this, I know my Mace build can really suck to play against. That being said, I actually get a lot of “gg” or “gf” when using my build because while getting caught in a 3+ second stun sucks it’s also something you can play around. Mace has a really obvious telegraph that has tons of counters and it has a short range. I’ve played against Hambow and my own Mace build while playing other classes and if I lost I felt it was because I did something wrong. Fighting a condi heavy build leaves a nasty aftertaste even if you win. To use Mark Necros as an example, you spend the whole fight avoiding nothing but circles on the ground while keeping an eye out for the one that fears you. While the marks have different effects the approach to each one remains the same. Same thing with nades and bombs, they all have different effects but are still just circles on the ground. Other Engi kits can be fun to fight against. Tool kit has the Magnet + Crowbar combo that is deadly but you can tell when they are going for it. I also enjoy fighting Guardians because every combo is different in functionality.

The design of most classes are pretty good. They all have a variety of moves that have totally different effects and counters. Most condi builds on the other hand rely on using the same AoE circle over and over again to do their damage. A red circle is a red circle. There’s nothing unique or interesting about it. If the AoEs had different shapes or something to that effect it would at least make things more interesting but right now all they do is apply different effects and that’s it.

Perhaps conditions are not OP, but at the very least they are toxic and unhealthy to PvP.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Monkey, you’re really overstating

Turn about is fair play, but it is okay for you to make false statements, uninformed statements, and overstatements of your own? Man this is really confuding. Where is the rule book on this?

BurrTheKing.8571:

Doing a quick scan I see 15+ posts saying that they agree with me

Yeah but you keep counting all of your own post.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Perhaps conditions are not OP, but at the very least they are toxic and unhealthy to PvP.

Agreed, they are not OP.

Now, care to explain logically how they are toxic? Here is where your opinion on this becomes a problem

BurrTheKing.8571:

Conditions were better designed in GW1.

If you like I can link you thread after thread claiming the exact opposite of your claim here. Just because you feel they were better designed, doesn’t make it true, nor does it mean players agree with you.

@burrtheking where are these condi bunkers? You do know DHUUMFIRE WAS NERFED!! That means necros who also had their other conditions nerfed in subsequent patches after dhuumfire was introduced are basically nerfed.

Seriously you play a warrior and conditions are the best way to deal with a Warrior. Your even running mace/shield now which gives you a full 100 blades again if your running sigil of paralyzation. Here is what I see happening you must be getting kited until your berserker stance is wearing off and then people are killing you.

Warriors never really had good condition management to begin with unless you went shouts or bow they just dealt with the ones that’s on them.

I’m not telling you anything you probably don’t know but I don’t understand the surprise here. Why would engineers have a problem fighting a warrior? They have just as much mobility as the warrior and wait out your zerker stance. The necro was a little bit more even fight because necro’s have terrible mobility. Condi mesmers and condi thieves also mentioned in your OP never had a problem with warrior.

If you can’t land a skullcrack and 100blades to victory you lose. Not knocking your build but that’s what it is all based on skullcrack + 100 blades.

If you land 2 moves you can probably kill them outright this would be possible on the engi and necro as they usually slack on stun breakers. The mesmer and thief can handle it as long as they kite well. Most of this looks like your focused on the condi engineers who can of course kite better then you can.

dancingmonkey.4902:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Monkey, you’re really overstating

Turn about is fair play, but it is okay for you to make false statements, uninformed statements, and overstatements of your own? Man this is really confuding. Where is the rule book on this?

BurrTheKing.8571:

Doing a quick scan I see 15+ posts saying that they agree with me

Yeah but you keep counting all of your own post.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Perhaps conditions are not OP, but at the very least they are toxic and unhealthy to PvP.

Agreed, they are not OP.

Now, care to explain logically how they are toxic?

I can say with absoulte certainty that I did not count any of my own posts. Why would I?

I don’t know how anything I said was uninformed, considering I try to make sure to include examples and known evidence. I don’t recall you ever saying how many games of TPvP you’ve played vs an organized team, unless I missed it. What I’ve encountered is 2/3 organized teams running AT LEAST 2 condi builds on their team, often 3.

I clearly said in the above post why I view them as being toxic, so if you’re too lazy to read it then that’s not my fault.

I’m done “discussing” things with you. You cherry pick arguments to “counter” while avoiding the meat of the post.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I don’t know how anything I said was uninformed,

You claimed all condition users as Tanky. Which is false. Personally I beleive 3/4 of them run rabid, which is no more tanky then knights, and the do equivalent damage.

As well you literally claim this over and over, when math disagrees with you

BurrTheKing.8571:

Conditions on the other hand just need condition damage to be effective.

When precision in say a condition grenade engineer gains 27% more up time from on proc traits for damage with rabid gear level of precision over dire. Investment in a trait line, sigils, weapons, and runes are needed to maximize condition duration. Which literally increases condition damage by 100%.

You claim direct damage builds need to invest in 3 stats to be effective. Which is a crock. They may need it to be maximized, but not to be effective.

If you do not see those as inaccuracies, that is because you are choosing to ignore facts that are applicable at your convenience. It does not mean that they do not exist.

BurrTheKing.8571:

. Condis are rarely “fun” to play against, the enjoyment is one sided

Again, this is your opinion. What is really fun? 10k cleaves from warriors? Stun chains? thieves doing massive back stabs when they are stealth and you do not have a chance to even know it is coming? Mesmers breaking your targeting off of them with clones? Guardians healing through all of your condition damage?

Should clones, stealth, guardian heals, AoEs, stuns and direct damage all be removed from the game because out of the millions of players who bought the game, 15 complain about them in a thread? Because trust me, there are multiple threads on almost any skill set or profession on these boards that have multiple posters claiming they are not fun. Is it fun to see all your CC ignored by players using stability after you invested every utility and weapon slot as to make a CC build? Should stability be removed from the game?

All of those things have been declared “no fun” by multiple threads of players. By your example, either you think all of them need to be removed, or you think you OPINION has more weight then everyone else’s, and they should change what you want but not what others complain about.

Because you stated our opinions are wrong, and with aver, claim conditions are no fun for anyone. Then you ask others who they are to consider that mis information? Well ou do not say, “It is my opinion” or “personally I feel” or “as I see it” or “I believe”, you state it as if it were unarguable.

BurrTheKing.8571:

You and others on the forums always overstated how strong Warrior was, and you won. The smear campaign

Why do you wish to run a smear campaign here while lecturing others how it is such a bad practice???

@Burr: When you take Restorative Strength + Mending, does RS remove Cripple/Immob/Chill/Weakness before Mending chooses 3 conditions? If so, then you have a heal that can clear 7 conditions every 20 seconds, Runes of Lyssa can potentially convert 5 conditions every 46 – 60 seconds, Signet of Stam will clear your conditions every 36 – 45 seconds, Zerker Stance makes you immune to conditions for 8 seconds, and Cleansing Ire can help clear 1 – 3 conditions per Burst landing.

I know Mending isn’t as much HPS (though it removes Poison before healing, so it can potentially be stronger depending on the situation), but if the meta really is moving that far into Condis, maybe it’s the go-to choice.

I’ve seen you posting around the Warrior forums quite often King. From debates, to helping the new players, to showcasing builds, etc.

And I would hate to see you drop off from the game.

BUT I completely agree with you on the condition meta. Conditions are disgusting at the moment. And the nerf to power did nothing to help. The power aspect is constantly nerfed for the sake of PvE and the conditions aren’t even being considered because they aren’t a problem in PvE.

At this point it is blatantly obvious that PvP and PvE should be balanced separately. It might turn a few players off when you have to learn what the regular skill do differently as opposed to PvE. But the enjoyment of the game outweighs the possible increasing drop off of players from PvP.

Whether you leave or not have a good time wherever you go.

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Burr: When you take Restorative Strength + Mending, does RS remove Cripple/Immob/Chill/Weakness before Mending chooses 3 conditions? If so, then you have a heal that can clear 7 conditions every 20 seconds, Runes of Lyssa can potentially convert 5 conditions every 46 – 60 seconds, Signet of Stam will clear your conditions every 36 – 45 seconds, Zerker Stance makes you immune to conditions for 8 seconds, and Cleansing Ire can help clear 1 – 3 conditions per Burst landing.

I know Mending isn’t as much HPS (though it removes Poison before healing, so it can potentially be stronger depending on the situation), but if the meta really is moving that far into Condis, maybe it’s the go-to choice.

As far as I’m aware yes it does remove the other skills THEN removes the condis. Yes, that is not too bad vs condition builds but as you said the amount that it heals for is really low. Even at a 20 second C/D that amount is pretty sad. If it was 15 seconds it might be worth taking, especially on DPS builds because you could possibly afford to drop Berserker’s Stance in favor of something that helps your offensive power. I do hope ANet takes another look at War’s other two healing skills, I’m tired of getting flak for using it when the other heals are terrible.

bobomb.5209:

I’ve seen you posting around the Warrior forums quite often King. From debates, to helping the new players, to showcasing builds, etc.

And I would hate to see you drop off from the game.

BUT I completely agree with you on the condition meta. Conditions are disgusting at the moment. And the nerf to power did nothing to help. The power aspect is constantly nerfed for the sake of PvE and the conditions aren’t even being considered because they aren’t a problem in PvE.

At this point it is blatantly obvious that PvP and PvE should be balanced separately. It might turn a few players off when you have to learn what the regular skill do differently as opposed to PvE. But the enjoyment of the game outweighs the possible increasing drop off of players from PvP.

Whether you leave or not have a good time wherever you go.

I appreciate those words. I’m still on the fence about the whole thing. For every good match of PvP there’s 3 others that are full of red circle builds that are not fun in the least. I think the problem with both PvE and PvP is that both modes have major design flaws. Conditions are never going to be useful in PvE if the max stack allowance is so low. PvP is going to continue to be a cluster**** if the capture points remain as small as they are. There’s a lot of balancing/toxicity issues that would be greatly reduced if other parts of the game were changed. It’s not easy in some cases but when it comes to PvP capture points if you made them larger conditions would be soooooo much weaker.

bobomb.5209:

And the nerf to power did nothing to help. The power aspect is constantly nerfed for the sake of PvE and the conditions aren’t even being considered because they aren’t a problem in PvE.

They didn’t nerf POWER they nerfed crit damage to reduce overall Direct damage by 10%. You aren’t criting 100% of the time even if you crit 90% of the time that isn’t 100% of the time. Go get more power put on strength runes take forceful greatsword, run for great justice, put on a sigil of strength add sigil of air. Get to 25 stacks of might then tell people how you just hit someone for 18k eviscerates in that conversation forgetting that your critical damage was reduced. Also add 1k plus damage to that eviscerate if your sigil of air procs.

Then think about the glory days if you had your old critical damage values and how much damage you would have actually done.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Burr: When you take Restorative Strength + Mending, does RS remove Cripple/Immob/Chill/Weakness before Mending chooses 3 conditions? If so, then you have a heal that can clear 7 conditions every 20 seconds, Runes of Lyssa can potentially convert 5 conditions every 46 – 60 seconds, Signet of Stam will clear your conditions every 36 – 45 seconds, Zerker Stance makes you immune to conditions for 8 seconds, and Cleansing Ire can help clear 1 – 3 conditions per Burst landing.

I know Mending isn’t as much HPS (though it removes Poison before healing, so it can potentially be stronger depending on the situation), but if the meta really is moving that far into Condis, maybe it’s the go-to choice.

As far as I’m aware yes it does remove the other skills THEN removes the condis. Yes, that is not too bad vs condition builds but as you said the amount that it heals for is really low. Even at a 20 second C/D that amount is pretty sad. If it was 15 seconds it might be worth taking, especially on DPS builds because you could possibly afford to drop Berserker’s Stance in favor of something that helps your offensive power. I do hope ANet takes another look at War’s other two healing skills, I’m tired of getting flak for using it when the other heals are terrible.

I see where you’re coming from, but there’s more to it given its potential than raw HPS. If Mending clears 2 seconds of Burning at 1000 damage per Burning tick, technically it saved you 5240 (base) + 2000 = 7240 health. Healing Signet is 362 HP/s, and after 20 seconds, it will heal you for 7240 health. If that burning gets through on Healing Signet where it wouldn’t have otherwise, then you’ll actually only be +5240 health relative to that burn alone, which is equivalent to Mending’s potential in the same situation.

I know people love spreadsheets and equations, but sometimes an ability is more defined by its use than its raw HPS. Plus, potentially removing Crip/Chill/Immob/Weak is not insignificant to the fight at hand.

We’re talking about a raw-condi Meta, so yes you would be at a disadvantage against Power with Mending, but it sounds like you’re at a disadvantage against Condi with your current heal.

Just wanted to share the perspective. If you don’t want to use it that’s fine, but if you decide to quit against the Condi meta without exhausting your Condi options and potentially working outside the box, then that just seems unfortunate to me. At that point, even if the game is in a bit of an Oprah Condis state (You get a condition! And you get a condition! And you get a condition!), you can really only blame yourself.

EDIT – I posted this and afterwards realized that you personally probably don’t have as much issue against conditions as others. You have your anti-Condi build, and your desire to leave is less about being able to deal with it and more about just not enjoying the experience given the current meta. I shouldn’t really be pointing this perspective at you so much as at all of the people who read the boards, decide Healing Signet is because because raw HPS or bust, then DO have a hard time dealing with condis.

Then, they see someone ask in Heart of the Mists what they think about condis and they talk about how difficult of a time they have dealing with them, when they could theoretically have a much easier time if they just looked around at what their class provides. Sort of like what people did against stun-lock combos and Power damage in general (using blocks/immunities/invulns/etc. to buy time/guard against burst).

Maybe if everyone went hard in the paint to counter Condis, some power builds would creep back in to deal with bunkers that are suddenly anti-Condi.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Cogbyrn.7283:

@Burr: When you take Restorative Strength + Mending, does RS remove Cripple/Immob/Chill/Weakness before Mending chooses 3 conditions? If so, then you have a heal that can clear 7 conditions every 20 seconds, Runes of Lyssa can potentially convert 5 conditions every 46 – 60 seconds, Signet of Stam will clear your conditions every 36 – 45 seconds, Zerker Stance makes you immune to conditions for 8 seconds, and Cleansing Ire can help clear 1 – 3 conditions per Burst landing.

I know Mending isn’t as much HPS (though it removes Poison before healing, so it can potentially be stronger depending on the situation), but if the meta really is moving that far into Condis, maybe it’s the go-to choice.

As far as I’m aware yes it does remove the other skills THEN removes the condis. Yes, that is not too bad vs condition builds but as you said the amount that it heals for is really low. Even at a 20 second C/D that amount is pretty sad. If it was 15 seconds it might be worth taking, especially on DPS builds because you could possibly afford to drop Berserker’s Stance in favor of something that helps your offensive power. I do hope ANet takes another look at War’s other two healing skills, I’m tired of getting flak for using it when the other heals are terrible.

So removing 7 conditions that you repeatedly state you hate, over and over, is not worth sacrificing a small amount of healing difference? Even if it negates 3 times the amount of damage that it would heal for?

So it is not a matter of the tools being available or not. It is a a matter of you not wanting to accept the sacrifice anything to counter them.

It seems to me, it all boils down to the fact that you prefer them to change the game to suit you personally, the rest of us be dang, just so you do not have to add counters to your build. Yet in warrior complaints, I see you post on how you demand of other to build to counter issues they complain about there.

FYI Mr. Warrior

Your professions is, by balance design, supposed to be weak against conditions.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post999247

Warrior

We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet). They have a hard time taking enemy boons down, and instead, have to just go through them with raw force. They have a hard time with enemy conditions, and may need to ask for ally help in order to keep themselves free of hampering conditions.

MrKing don’t let any of these guys stop you from quiting if you want to quit do it. You don’t need any justification, any justification you can think of works, even one that is completely wrong works.

dancingmonkey.4902:

FYI Mr. Warrior

Your professions is, by balance design, supposed to be weak against conditions.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post999247

Warrior

We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet). They have a hard time taking enemy boons down, and instead, have to just go through them with raw force. They have a hard time with enemy conditions, and may need to ask for ally help in order to keep themselves free of hampering conditions.

A lot changes in a year and a half. Perhaps actually making a class legitimately weak to Condis completely shuns it from seeing any competition.

Holding onto past comments like this is why the forum can’t ever have nice things. I’ve seen people link 4 year old videos as source material for the game’s current direction. Maybe they wanted to do something and it didn’t work, so they’re doing something else. I know forum posters often want the devs, in that situation, to bend the knee and kiss the ring, but to me that’s just silly.

Anyway, I digress. Conditions and stuff.

Back on topic though somewhere after that design philosophy was posted they clearly changed their mind because they decided to give several good anti-condi stuff to the Warrior. This means that this definition, in fact most of those definitions, mean nothing now.

I can agree with you on many points

I agree with you that conditions is a very lame and stale way of fighting and not very exciting at all. Condition builds seem to breed and are conducive to a style of play that revolves around spam conditions and kite, or sit back and throw conditions. Call me crazy but that to me isn’t very exciting at all. Obviously not all condition builds fall under that category for me, I enjoy watching condi necros, but there are a lot of classes that I like to call the culprit of such playstyles, mainly engis, thieves and mesmers. In my opinion I could see why it would put off a lot of new players (aside from backstab thieves), but it has also put off a lot of old and great players as well.

I also do agree with you for the most part on having to run either hambow or S/S condi. The main reason in my opinion why hambow is a very strong meta build is its amazing ability to clear condis. Hammer stun is an AoE so it is easy to hit at least one target and clear all condis. Longbow burst is an AoE which clears all conditions no matter what. I am of the opinion that if you are not running at least a Longbow, a Warrior will struggle against conditions. Let us not forget that Warriors weren’t viable until Healing Signet got a buff. Because their problem was sustain. Mending seriously isn’t a viable option whether conditions are an issue or not.

An S/S condi warrior can easily build to be very tanky, something which is not possible as a power build if you actually want to be successful You can’t just go straight soldier because otherwise you just do no damage and lack the ability to take down targets. There is a reason why people don’t run full soldiers or PTV. S/S condi warriors have the luxury to build extremely tanky and still actually have the ability to kill targets and wear people down due to their very high durability. They don’t really need to invest in condition duration with deep cuts. It seems like certain trait lines for certain classes synergize really well in terms of doing a condition build, i.e having IP in the condition duration tree for the Engi class or Dhuumfire in spite traitline, both of which cause really high spikes in condition damage. I don’t find myself needing condition duration in a condition build nearly as much as needing precision and critical damage in a power build and I think many people share these same sentiments. In WvW condition duration is so easy to come by. It’s called Koi Cakes or Veggie Pizzas or Toxic Oils. Condition duration isn’t even a quarter of the issue. In my opinion the frequency that conditions can be applied, and when you add runes and sigils on top of that it can quickly become overbearing for most classes. Even if running - condition duration + melandru with some condition removal it is very hard to manage with all the proccing that goes on. It feels almost mandatory to run - condition duration foods, unless you have a crapton of condition removal.

Conditions is why Mace/GS will never make it as a meta build in tournaments. It is in fact why many builds aren’t meta at the moment. Cleansing Ire is pretty much unreliable with this weapon set, the mace is a very slow and clunky weapon. It is also too reliant on the Skull Crack/100B combo. In a perfect world you could get off that combo every 10 seconds but that is far from reality. Skull crack is slow and requires you to be next to your opponent, it is easy to avoid and kite away from. Even if you do get stunned, one can easily stunbreak, standing there in a full channel of 100B is dangerous, etc. Warriors and Guardians already run stability and stunbreaks so you cant lock down those two classes. A good engi is very difficult to lockdown and focus.

Sometimes I wish that at the release of this game, GW2 would of took more of a GW1 approach to conditions in that you could not specifically build into being a pure condition build. In that conditions would be more of a tool that debilitates your opponent through different ailments rather then being a damage tool. A sort of compliment to the build that you are running that you had the option to spec into or something hybrid-ish. Right now it can do both damage and severely debilitate, both on an sPvP and a WvW small group level. However the issue is that conditions don’t seem to be a whole lot effective in zergs, which is the trouble with balancing conditions.

In my opinion ANet making such a distinct divide between power damage and condition damage has made this game exponentially harder to balance and to have both "balanced" in such a way that they would not be overwhelming in one type of content and underwhelming in another, while keeping both types of styles fresh and exciting to play, with plenty of options to build and counterplay. I don’t know if at this point if it is possible. It will always be a tug of war between burst damage vs condition damage and in the end we all lose, unless we all just roll what is fotm.

The problem isn’t the idea of condition damage, but how its current implementation lacks counter-play and requires less of a trade-off in stats, as well as how it scales.

With power damage builds, if you miss an attack, it goes on cooldown and a good chunk of damage wasn’t dealt. For the most part, there’s little forgiveness. And in most situations, CC and damage are balanced against each other in that a CC attack or a build heavy in CC will give up damage or requires good execution of an attack chain of CC and damage.

Condition damage engineers get a good chunk of their damage from Incendiary Powder. The problem with this trait is that no matter what an opponent dodges, it only delays its application. It essentially can’t be avoided unless you can avoid every attack. Further, condition damage engineers have so many different types of conditions and so many attacks that can be spammed, it’s relatively easy for them to apply many conditions at once, making it harder to counter all the damage.

With the change to Dhuumfire, Necromancer doesn’t the same issue as Incendiary Powder. Condition damage necros become problematic because of CC chains and many small and hard to avoid attacks which add up.

In comparison, a condition damage warrior (with the new Impale) has predictable or avoidable condition application. You can stay out of the Combustive Shot area to reduce burning application, and if you tactically avoid Impale, you suffer a lot less damage.

Condition Duration only adds to the problem. When you look at the condition damage additions as a whole, it’s increasing condition damage by that percentage. In sPvP, that’s 40% or more for all conditions. With WvW foods, it goes up to 70-80%. You don’t see that kind of damage scaling from power users in such a concentrated form. And condition duration also affects CC conditions (immobilize, cripple, chill, fear), giving condition users stronger CC at the same time as stronger damage.

With the damage sources concentrated so much in condition duration (which usually takes the place of procs or boon duration on runes, not raw stats), it allows condition damage builds to focus a larger portion of stats on defense compared to power users.

So as a whole, the popular condition damage builds, namely condi engi and necro, have great damage scaling, better defensive stats, less penalty for poor skill usage, and improved CC. At the highest levels of play, any poor usage of skills matters, but for the general player base, few people have excellent skill usage, so the degree of the penalty for poor usage matters.

If I were to nerf condition damage, I would reduce the power of no-penalty procs, including those on runes/sigils, and reduce the amount of increases to all condition duration bonuses in favor of adding duration bonuses to specific conditions. Condition damage weapons would then need to scale better with power.

Brashen.2671:

7) Condition food/stones overpowered. Same issues as 1 – 40% duration is far more effective than -40% condition duration and the price differences is massive. I can get koi cakes for buttons and buying lemongrass costs me the earth. Sharpening stones and oils again have the same issues where stat versus stats condition classes simply have less stats they need to worry about.

First off, your wrong condition classes have less stats to worry about.

But really now, doesnt this make you wonder?

Supposedly everyone is playing a condition builds, and they are all running this “overpowered” 40% duration food. Then why is it so much cheaper? Its not like it isnt a pain to make rare veggie pizza, and it contains fairly rare ingredients.

Its because this is an example of marketing. “Hey you! Yes, you! Everyone out there is out to get you! But, if you get this lovely bowl of lemongrass poultry soup YOU can be SAFE!”
And everyone buys it, and runs it. And there are simply a whole lot more people buying the lemongrass then the pizza, because there are way more power builds and not nearly as many condition builds, as some people want everyone to believe.

Terrahero.9358:

Supposedly everyone is playing a condition builds, and they are all running this “overpowered” 40% duration food. Then why is it so much cheaper? Its not like it isnt a pain to make rare veggie pizza, and it contains fairly rare ingredients.

Rare Veggie Pizza is less expensive because of Koi Cakes, which are much cheaper and do the same thing.

killahmayne.9518:

I agree with you that conditions is a very lame and stale way of fighting and not very exciting at all. Condition builds seem to breed and are conducive to a style of play that revolves around spam conditions and kite, or sit back and throw conditions. Call me crazy but that to me isn’t very exciting at all.

Yes we should call you crazy. You are making a TL:DR post on a subject that you do not understand the function of….

Define spam in this case? explain to us how condition attacks are spammed and direct attacks do not.

Exedore.6320:

The problem isn’t the idea of condition damage, but how its current implementation lacks counter-play and requires less of a trade-off in stats, as well as how it scales.

With power damage builds, if you miss an attack, it goes on cooldown and a good chunk of damage wasn’t dealt. For the most part, there’s little forgiveness. And in most situations, CC and damage are balanced against each other in that a CC attack or a build heavy in CC will give up damage or requires good execution of an attack chain of CC and damage.

Condition damage engineers get a good chunk of their damage from Incendiary Powder. The problem with this trait is that no matter what an opponent dodges, it only delays its application. It essentially can’t be avoided unless you can avoid every attack. Further, condition damage engineers have so many different types of conditions and so many attacks that can be spammed, it’s relatively easy for them to apply many conditions at once, making it harder to counter all the damage.

You mean similarly to how easy it is to reconnect a direct damage attack after I dodged the previous one?

There is no difference. A dodged skill that applies a condition goes on cool down just like a heavier hitting direct damage attack, and cannot be reused until it is off CD. If a condi user blows thier CDs and applies several condition and you cleanse some or all of them, they are not magically reapplied at no cost. Those skills still have to cycle out of CD to reapply.

This entire concept of falsely crying spam, or complaining about reapplication is comparatively irrational, as the landing of a blow to apply conditions is required equivalently to the landing of a blow to do direct damage. Each condition skill has a set duration and/or stack associated with it. If you cleanse a stack of bleeds from one or two skills, and a player applies more bleeds from entirely different skills, it is no different from avoiding another players direct damage attack, just to have them swing with an entirely different direct damage attack and land it. Every condition applying attack has a limited max amount of damage it can cause, exactly like direct damage do.

To complain that a player used an entirely different skill to apply a condition that you just cleansed, makes no more sense then to complain that you avoided a hard hitting direct damage attack, and got hit by an entirely different direct damage attack after that. Your complaint in that regard makes no logical sense what so ever.

Exedore.6320:

Condition damage engineers get a good chunk of their damage from Incendiary Powder. The problem with this trait is that no matter what an opponent dodges, it only delays its application. It essentially can’t be avoided unless you can avoid every attack. Further, condition damage engineers have so many different types of conditions and so many attacks that can be spammed, it’s relatively easy for them to apply many conditions at once, making it harder to counter all the damage.

Define “A good Chunk” ??? 3312 damage every 10s, under perfect and ideal circumstances ?? That is assuming you break 2k condition damage and have 100% crit chance for maximum up time. Many engineers I know, do not bother with this trait, because we already have an over abundance of burn with fire bomb, blow torch (pistol #4), Rocket kick, and of course flame thrower.

Sure. Remove IP from the engineer completely. That wouldn’t effect almost any engineer, other then a slight build change for the ones who use it. Once that happens, what excuse will you use in replacement of this argument???

“Maybe condi isn’t OP” is false. It’s OP because power crit has been nerfed, and thus it’s OP because it’s way better than the power builds right now. That 15% nerf on ranged damage is big enough to affect things in WvW, and sigils runes are not helping much. Zerk professions have no HP whatsoever, while dire gear has vitality toughness condition damage nicely packed up.

I doubt you have the numbers to prove dancing monkey wrong anyway.

@dancingmonkey.4902

Okay, here’s a simple example for you. Warrior uses Eviscerate. You dodge, avoiding thousands of damage. Eviscerate goes on at least a 7 second cooldown. No other attack with an axe will do that much damage in such a short time, so you can breathe easy for a bit.

Engineer uses bomb kit #2 and #3. You dodge them, avoiding a good chunk of burning and confusion. Engineer auto-attacks with pistol. You now have 7 seconds of burning from Incendiary Powder (4200+ damage if you don’t remove it) and bleeding. There is no reliable way to avoid the heavy damage condition. Unless you have multiple condition cleanse that gets used immediately, the burning gets buried in a stack of conditions. In a team battle, without hovering over the UI timer, how can you tell that you just had 7s of powerful burning added to you?

Every good condition engineer uses Incendiary Powder. It’s just too good.

Exedore.6320:

Okay, here’s a simple example for you. Warrior uses Eviscerate. You dodge, avoiding thousands of damage. Eviscerate goes on at least a 7 second cooldown. No other attack with an axe will do that much damage in such a short time, so you can breathe easy for a bit.

Engineer uses bomb kit #2 and #3. You dodge them, avoiding a good chunk of burning and confusion. Engineer auto-attacks with pistol. You now have 7 seconds of burning from Incendiary Powder (4200+ damage if you don’t remove it) and bleeding. There is no reliable way to avoid the heavy damage condition. Unless you have multiple condition cleanse that gets used immediately, the burning gets buried in a stack of conditions. In a team battle, without hovering over the UI timer, how can you tell that you just had 7s of powerful burning added to you?

For starters, in full ascended condition gear, IP only does 3400 damage. And that is assuming The auto attack crits. Which is only a 1 in 4 chance in the dire gear your also claiming they all use. that is 7,270 damage in 10s.

Now let us use you Axe wielding warrior in full soldiers P/V/T gear, with the exact same defense as dire and no traits at all. The auto attacks alone will be 11,760 in the same time frame. We will even assume that a player dodges a full set of auto attacks from the axe wielding warrior. The damage is still 7,840. Meaning that two good dodges or a solid 3s block from the engineer and he still takes more damage then the warrior does.

So, in full ascended dire gear, Pistol auto attack does 124 direct damage and 262 bleed damage for 387. Add 3400 for IP, and assume you land all pistol auto attacks in that time.

The warrior in all soldiers gear, spamming nothing but auto attacks with literally ZERO traits, will still do more damage to the engineer who is using full dire gear, with the traits your crying OP about. Not to mention IP is single target and warrior Axe auto attack has cleave damage.

Would you like to throw in a condition cleanse as well? I mean the warrior is doing more damage in the same time frame, even assuming 1/3 of the damage is blocked or dodged. Heaven forbid we give that same assumed credit to the engineer or throw in a cleanse.

Exedore.6320:

Every good condition engineer uses Incendiary Powder. It’s just too good.

Umm, no they don’t. Your just making all out assumptive claims that my experience in the engineer community since beta suggest is completely inaccurate.

dancingmonkey.4902:

For starters, in full ascended condition gear, IP only does 3400 damage. And that is assuming The auto attack crits. Which is only a 1 in 4 chance in the dire gear your also claiming they all use. that is 7,270 damage in 10s.

Powder is currently around 4.3k per tick in sPvP, in WvW you will hit 6k+ with consumables. Perhaps you’re a little behind the times, love.

shimmerless.4560:

Powder is currently around 4.3k per tick in sPvP, in WvW you will hit 6k+ with consumables. Perhaps you’re a little behind the times, love.

Really, I was in PvP testing it just before I posted my last post. I was in rabid gear with 6 points in the line that adds condition damage. Also using the runes of balthazar. Damage is exactly 4,064.

But as the previous posters cried dire, I did the comparison in a WvW setting. Not to mention, I put 6 points in the line to max condition damage for the example, while not getting any traits for the warrior in that comparison.

dancingmonkey.4902:

shimmerless.4560:

Powder is currently around 4.3k per tick in sPvP, in WvW you will hit 6k+ with consumables. Perhaps you’re a little behind the times, love.

Really, I was in PvP testing it just before I posted my last post. I was in rabid gear with 6 points in the line that adds condition damage. Also using the runes of balthazar. Damage is exactly 4,064.

But as the previous posters cried dire, I did the comparison in a WvW setting.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fdAQJAqelUUpPrlYxvLseRCbBNqxAqNIyNWlP3gAkUA-TpgMgAA7PQXGAA

Oh, I am sorry. So now we are comparing a engineer in a very specific build, to a warrior who is untraited. What is your point? Where is the “dire” gear in your link, since they were crying dire gear? Talk about being behind the times, love.

What if the Protection buff affected condition damage?

would that work?

dancingmonkey.4902:

Oh, I am sorry. So now we are comparing a engineer in a very specific build, to a warrior who is untraited. What is your point? Where is the “dire” gear in your link, since they were crying dire gear? Talk about being behind the times, love.

Why would Dire make any difference to the damage per tick? I’m also not sure how it’s a “very specific build” considering you need 20 in Explosives for IP anyway. (With just an amulet, runes and 20 into that line IP is 3.6k in sPvP)

Okay, so throw the number you suggest in the situation I already laid out. The warrior with the same defense still significantly out damages the build you posted. All you doing is arguing a 300 damage per 10s to a non-traited warrior in soldiers gear that is silodly out damaging the engineer.

I came back AFTER the patch and I am playing alot more then before…
I only played this much in Beta and Launch untill hiting lvl 80

oZii.2864:

bobomb.5209:

And the nerf to power did nothing to help. The power aspect is constantly nerfed for the sake of PvE and the conditions aren’t even being considered because they aren’t a problem in PvE.

They didn’t nerf POWER they nerfed crit damage to reduce overall Direct damage by 10%. You aren’t criting 100% of the time even if you crit 90% of the time that isn’t 100% of the time. Go get more power put on strength runes take forceful greatsword, run for great justice, put on a sigil of strength add sigil of air. Get to 25 stacks of might then tell people how you just hit someone for 18k eviscerates in that conversation forgetting that your critical damage was reduced. Also add 1k plus damage to that eviscerate if your sigil of air procs.

Then think about the glory days if you had your old critical damage values and how much damage you would have actually done.

I know it was critical damage not the power stat. When I said power I was referring to the name “Power build” Given to builds that do raw damage.

Also everything about your post is just aweful. That sounds like a horrible idea. I would rather not become one of the mindless warriors that still plague the game. I prefer to mix things up, be more original, and just try to have fun.