Guild Wars 2

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

My guess? You won’t be able to find a single one.

Not my fault if you are out of the loop.

DeWolfe.2174:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

My guess? You won’t be able to find a single one.

Not my fault if you are out of the loop.

I don’t think he is out of the loop it is just hard to believe that anyone decent and not afk loses to stacking only bleeds from a P/D thief when it is hard to kill people with just bleeds on a necro. Anyone that dies to 1 condition isn’t very good.

You’re forgetting runes, sigils, and venoms. So it’s mash utilities, then 111111. Maybe tossing in a weapon swap at the start and including thieves guild for giggles. Which you can all macro together.

DeWolfe.2174:

You’re forgetting runes, sigils, and venoms. So it’s mash utilities, then 111111. Maybe tossing in a weapon swap at the start and including thieves guild for giggles. Which you can all macro together.

People running venoms? Solo/dueling? That is news and I ran P/D back when it got hot with wildbill back then only a few ran venoms. Fighting a thief with thieves guild up is usually GG no matter if he is conditions or not.

DeWolfe.2174:

You’re forgetting runes, sigils, and venoms. So it’s mash utilities, then 111111. Maybe tossing in a weapon swap at the start and including thieves guild for giggles. Which you can all macro together.

Ahhh, so what you’re saying is “if a thief uses most of their skills, they can use their auto-attack to do some work”. That’s a far cry from “1111111 and get kills”

Jocksy.3415:

The zerker equivalent of condi would be condi damage/precision/condi duration.
Since no such sets exist, the comparison between condis and direct damage should be done with dire/soldier or apothecary/cleric or rampager/assassin

If those sets deal more damage over the same duration in one of the two build, then one can say direct damage or condi damage is overpowered.
Until someone does the math with equivalent sets (including equivalent runes), I’m gonna say my feeling is that they are pretty balanced.

Some people here try to compare strawberries and lemon, some stating strawberries sre best cause they are sweet and some countering with you can’t make lemonade with strawberries…

Can’t you guys compare strawberries and blueberries for a change? If someone can send me equivalent builds (direct and condi on one class) by MP, I’ll be happy to make the math…
Only rule would be to not put anything in the build that is not aimed at damage (eg.:straight condi removal or vigor, or damage negation abilities such as berserker stance or endure pain) since I will only calculate damage output over a given duration (maybe five minutes)
Some things such as Well of corruption would be hard to calculate, but if builds sent have them, I’ll do my best to calculate it fairly.

rampager is the serker version of conditions wich is rendered useless when you can just slap some rabid trinkets on a full dire set

and again as its been said you cant compare serker to Dire its just too effective max suvivability and max damage in one package no one’s trying to find a serker equivalent version of condi gear because serker is not a match give serker toughtness and vit and see how balanced it is lol the thing about conditions is theyir goal was to deal substained damage but instea their damage is pretty much done by bursts and appliea at ridiculous paces with no means to reduce damage outside of condi dure reduction wich is undone by simply eating pizza or koi cake

then theres stuff like this

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deep_Cuts
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hemophilia
50-80% bleeding duration from traits alone

Rampager is closer to Knights for condition builds than Zerker. The stat you want highest is not what the gear grants you and in both cases, it gives you a stat you could do without. A true “zerker” equivalent would be Condition Damage primary, Precision and Condition Duration secondary.

That said, anyone running such a set would die long before managing to kill anyone.

Every thing you say here defies logic. Pretty much every excuse you listed applies to direct damage.

I think people give conditions a harder time on the spam front than direct damage because we have different expectations for different ways of building.

Attrition gameplay is supposed to be a tactical victory.
But the condi/removal interplay feels more reaction-based like how direct damage classically is, instead of holding it’s own as a unique more cerebral experience.

How I’ve seen condition-builds distinguish themselves on a tactical level in other action games is by offering an advantage positionally so that timing was a major factor. In a shooter I can’t hit anything behind cover, but a DoT can. In a MOBA I can’t follow an enemy when they fall back to dangerous areas, but a DoT can. There’s a great deal of gameplay and counterplay when there’s a sincere time and place for well telegraphed meaty DoTs.

In GW2 Conditions are flittering in and out again so fast it rarely makes much of an impact in terms of position or timing. So applying Damaging conditions doesn’t really feel any different than applying direct damage. And, via uptime or churn, applying non-damaging conditions rarely hits that ‘clutch’ feeling that’s so good at making you feel clever.

All in all, Conditions are really disappointing in this game.
And I can see why Sinject has a hard time putting that into words. It’s the rare case of something being pretty well balanced, but still really lackluster to play. And that’s hard to talk about in a space where the big B is the end all be all of conversations.

Hi all,

Most of the threads on forums talk about how OP conditions are compared to power and the sole reason for this is the stats that your gear possesses, yes some classes can be toned down in how much damage conditions deal etc but hear me out.

A power based armour relies upon these stats to deal damage;
Power
Precision
Crit dmg

You then further need
Toughness
Vitality

if you want any hopes of surviving, at the moment people feel forced to spec some sort of berserker armour or amulet if in pvp otherwise they will hit like a wet noodle.

Condition builds need only one stat to be effective, and all condition armour has it;
Condition damage

You can argue precision for those that need to proc on crit but it’s not AS necessary as crit dmg is to a power build.

Condition builds then gets these stats as “secondary bonuses”
Vitality
Precision
Toughness

So as you can see Power based builds require more stats to be effective meaning some form of berserker (or valk/cava) is needed for that precision + crit dmg to be effective forcing power based builds to sacrifice their defense for offense whereas condition builds do not need to do this.

What i suggest before Anet introduces the new crit dmg stat;
add crit dmg to all armour types in the game as a secondary stat, obviously varying depending on which stat type it is (zerk will have far greater crit dmg than say soldier)

This way power builds could potentially use other stat types without having to sacrifice the defensive stats which might just help against condition counter parts.

Inaccurate… damage wise you need power/pre/crit dmg Vs. Cond/Pre/cond duration.

Depending on class the pre is extremely important. The burn from IP on eng is a large part of their damage. The classes that don’t have these sorts of things have other issues such as not being able to apply enough conditions to prevent cleansing.

The toughness/vit is needed more with a cond class because you need to be able to stay alive while the dot’s tick and be able to re-apply them as they are cleansed. Should those two stats be given for free on all armors as well? No, because you have similar tradeoffs with both power and cond.

Crit damage applies to all damage regardless while condition duration needs to hit the next 1s mark to do anything at all.

Damage wise power does more damage than conditions, but conds get other control benefits instead.

Seems pretty well balanced to me as is and I use both power and cond builds on a daily basis.

Aberrant.6749:

Inaccurate… damage wise you need power/pre/crit dmg Vs. Cond/Pre/cond duration.

Depending on class the pre is extremely important. The burn from IP on eng is a large part of their damage. The classes that don’t have these sorts of things have other issues such as not being able to apply enough conditions to prevent cleansing.

The toughness/vit is needed more with a cond class because you need to be able to stay alive while the dot’s tick and be able to re-apply them as they are cleansed. Should those two stats be given for free on all armors as well? No, because you have similar tradeoffs with both power and cond.

Crit damage applies to all damage regardless while condition duration needs to hit the next 1s mark to do anything at all.

Damage wise power does more damage than conditions, but conds get other control benefits instead.

Seems pretty well balanced to me as is and I use both power and cond builds on a daily basis.

PvP-wise, most condi players especially engis don’t even take condi duration runes. It’s only “needed” in WvW because people use -Condi Duration food.

With the ease of applying conditions, all you need to do is apply a condi and go defensive as you watch your target waste his cleanses then you will simply reapply them again and go defensive.

Look at the PvP trinkets. Soldier, Barbarian, and Valkyrie amulets will never be fully utilized because it will always lack Precision or Crit Damage stat. Rabid, Carrion, and Settler however are deadly as they are even without Condi Duration or Precision.

Kyon.9735:

Aberrant.6749:

Inaccurate… damage wise you need power/pre/crit dmg Vs. Cond/Pre/cond duration.

Depending on class the pre is extremely important. The burn from IP on eng is a large part of their damage. The classes that don’t have these sorts of things have other issues such as not being able to apply enough conditions to prevent cleansing.

The toughness/vit is needed more with a cond class because you need to be able to stay alive while the dot’s tick and be able to re-apply them as they are cleansed. Should those two stats be given for free on all armors as well? No, because you have similar tradeoffs with both power and cond.

Crit damage applies to all damage regardless while condition duration needs to hit the next 1s mark to do anything at all.

Damage wise power does more damage than conditions, but conds get other control benefits instead.

Seems pretty well balanced to me as is and I use both power and cond builds on a daily basis.

PvP-wise, most condi players especially engis don’t even take condi duration runes. It’s only “needed” in WvW because people use -Condi Duration food.

With the ease of applying conditions, all you need to do is apply a condi and go defensive as you watch your target waste his cleanses then you will simply reapply them again and go defensive.

Look at the PvP trinkets. Soldier, Barbarian, and Valkyrie amulets will never be fully utilized because it will always lack Precision or Crit Damage stat. Rabid, Carrion, and Settler however are deadly as they are even without Condi Duration or Precision.

PvP wise often they do. Getting +50% burn duration on Eng is huge. It’s not uncommon for an eng to take a sigil for +10% burning to hit that with traits + runes. Nightmare runes are common amongst many cond builds. It’s also a consideration when you’re building your trait-lines.

It’s not just spam conds then go defensive. That only works at lower stuff/hotjoin. There are so many ways that conds can get wiped/reduced/avoided it’s not even funny. You need to apply/reapply them at the right times to get the effects you need when you need them.

Conds also take longer Vs. Direct damage. In PvP this translates into longer times needed to kill & cap/decap points which translates into score.

If you don’t have pre you’re not getting the on crit procs. If you don’t have duration they’ll fall off faster due to reduction (again lower damage).

Still not seeing any problems.

Aberrant.6749:

Kyon.9735:

Aberrant.6749:

Inaccurate… damage wise you need power/pre/crit dmg Vs. Cond/Pre/cond duration.

Depending on class the pre is extremely important. The burn from IP on eng is a large part of their damage. The classes that don’t have these sorts of things have other issues such as not being able to apply enough conditions to prevent cleansing.

The toughness/vit is needed more with a cond class because you need to be able to stay alive while the dot’s tick and be able to re-apply them as they are cleansed. Should those two stats be given for free on all armors as well? No, because you have similar tradeoffs with both power and cond.

Crit damage applies to all damage regardless while condition duration needs to hit the next 1s mark to do anything at all.

Damage wise power does more damage than conditions, but conds get other control benefits instead.

Seems pretty well balanced to me as is and I use both power and cond builds on a daily basis.

PvP-wise, most condi players especially engis don’t even take condi duration runes. It’s only “needed” in WvW because people use -Condi Duration food.

With the ease of applying conditions, all you need to do is apply a condi and go defensive as you watch your target waste his cleanses then you will simply reapply them again and go defensive.

Look at the PvP trinkets. Soldier, Barbarian, and Valkyrie amulets will never be fully utilized because it will always lack Precision or Crit Damage stat. Rabid, Carrion, and Settler however are deadly as they are even without Condi Duration or Precision.

PvP wise often they do. Getting +50% burn duration on Eng is huge. It’s not uncommon for an eng to take a sigil for +10% burning to hit that with traits + runes. Nightmare runes are common amongst many cond builds. It’s also a consideration when you’re building your trait-lines.

It’s not just spam conds then go defensive. That only works at lower stuff/hotjoin. There are so many ways that conds can get wiped/reduced/avoided it’s not even funny. You need to apply/reapply them at the right times to get the effects you need when you need them.

Conds also take longer Vs. Direct damage. In PvP this translates into longer times needed to kill & cap/decap points which translates into score.

If you don’t have pre you’re not getting the on crit procs. If you don’t have duration they’ll fall off faster due to reduction (again lower damage).

Still not seeing any problems.

So you say Condi Duration is a “needed” stat yet there are no trinkets that offer +condi duration which probably proves +condi duration is not considered a primary stat. Even without +Condi Duration, condis are very deadly in PvP.

And yes, from time to time you’ll find people running Nightmare Runes or Sigil of Smoldering but most of the time you’d see people use Runes of Adventurer or Sigil of Battle (especially on engis). The +Condi Duration bonus from traits are more than enough.

Yes i did not mention condy duration but i did mention precision, the reason i did not mention precision as a main stat for condy is because not all classes rely on it or need alot of it to do anything, 20% crit chance is more than enough to proc any on crit condies, and just as an example I main a necro, I can run full dire having minimal crit % and still proc dhuumfire just fine.

As said in pvp condy duration is available from sigils/runes and passively from trait allocation for most classes so it’s not as necessary.

Not only that but i’m talking about armour stats and correct me if i’m wrong but isn’t there only 1 set that gives condy duration? and no one runs it because it’s so easily obtained from other means.

I have edited my first post to make it more clear that i’m talking about the stat combinations on armour

Kyon.9735:

So you say Condi Duration is a “needed” stat yet there are no trinkets that offer +condi duration which probably proves +condi duration is not considered a primary stat. Even without +Condi Duration, condis are very deadly in PvP.

And yes, from time to time you’ll find people running Nightmare Runes or Sigil of Smoldering but most of the time you’d see people use Runes of Adventurer or Sigil of Battle (especially on engis). The +Condi Duration bonus from traits are more than enough.

…or that if it was on a trink/jewel it wouldn’t be balanced. They said they weren’t going to make ascended giver’s weapons for balance reasons quite a while ago, I assume this is for the same reason.

…and power builds can be good without a lot of pre/crit dmg. It depends on the build, what you’re trying to do, and what you can get elsewhere. They are all important to consider. Sorry if I wasn’t clear that was the point I was trying to make.

For eng battle is good, but it’s a pretty even choice/payoff between the two types of builds.

Elvahaduken.3609:

Yes i did not mention condy duration but i did mention precision, the reason i did not mention precision as a main stat for condy is because not all classes rely on it or need alot of it to do anything, 20% crit chance is more than enough to proc any on crit condies, and just as an example I main a necro, I can run full dire having minimal crit % and still proc dhuumfire just fine.

As said in pvp condy duration is available from sigils/runes and passively from trait allocation for most classes so it’s not as necessary.

Not only that but i’m talking about armour stats and correct me if i’m wrong but isn’t there only 1 set that gives condy duration? and no one runs it because it’s so easily obtained from other means.

I have edited my first post to make it more clear that i’m talking about the stat combinations on armour

Idk if I would run with only 20% on my eng, I far prefer around 30%. You don’t need as much pre as a glass cannon, but a glass cannon doesn’t need the survival. The all around investment in stats is very even between power and cond.

Also… that’s kind of ridiculous since gear isn’t the only place that stats come from and only a slice of what factors into a build.

I still don’t see any problems… maybe give a specific example cond build you feel is too strong because of the stats?

you state that power builds can be fine without any precision or crit dmg, please try every class with a power build in pvp and I think you’ll find the only classes that are fine and will not hit like a wet noodle is warriors and possibly thiefs. This is even more so in wvw where food makes a huge difference for some builds (crit dmg food/ – condy duration etc)

If i go full soldier on my necro I will not kill anything, precision and crit dmg are a must for any presence of pressure whereas if i went a condition build with full dire (no offensive stats other than condy dmg) I will pressure and kill with ease.

Out of all the stat combinations we have in gw2 at the moment, there’s a reason why most people that want to do some kind of dps use berserker, it’s because it’s so necessary, but to use that you give up defense, condition builds don’t have that problem, all condition builds in game at the moment are bunkers that can deal decent damage.

Please quote where I said that they can be fine without any pre or critdmg.

What I said was "a lot of pre/crit dmg. It depends on the build, what you’re trying to do, and what you can get elsewhere. They are all important to consider. "

Don’t put words in my mouth to try to make a strawman argument.

I’ve made my point and I’ll check back in later to see if anyone posts a build that shows this problem you’re saying exists.

I can’t because the post was edited, but let’s say minimal crit dmg and precision, what do you plan to do in pvp, run soldier ammy with zerk jewel for the little crit and precision you think is enough? You will still hit like a wet noodle with every class other than thief and warrior

A class like ranger, engi or necro don’t need condition duration because they apply conditions continuously. It can be good, but the don’t really need it.
There’s a lot of passive traits to improve condition duration, then you don’t need to use an equipment stat to improve it.
You can build a build whit Cond/pow/vit or better Con/prec/tough, giving out a damage of more than 2800/sec. (condition + direct damage). And you can not attack and deal “only” 2000/sec of condition damage.

Condition damage (expecially in spvp) is the powerfull source of damage because:
1) You can apply conditions and run/defend waiting for the enemy death. A dps need to attack to inflict damage, you don’t.
2) You need only 1 stat to cap your top damage. If you want you can play whitout precision or power, giving always 2000/sec of condition damage. But whit Prec is better, giving you the ability to inflict more conditions (whit some classes/builds)
3) The enemy can clean your conditions but you can re-apply easy. Necro can also transform boons in conditions! If the enemy block one of your attack or blind you it’s not a big problem because you’re already giving damage, whit conditions on the enemy. You only need a little more time to give it new conditions to inflict more damage/sec. If you play as dps and the enemy block/blind/dodge you, your total damage inflicted is 0. And so many classes can obtain Protection, reducing direct damage by 33%.
4) Poison do damage and reduce enemy healing ability, giving more trouble than all the other conditions. Whit only one Condition you destroy all the game of a bunker and make you kill all the enemy better, because they’re heal is reduced by 33%.
5) Fields and Finishers can give a lot of good combos, making you inflict more and more conditions and direct damage, converting boons, etc.
Actually, expecially in spvp (because in dungeon no one want a kitten condition damage dealer, they only want a brainless warrior berserker), condition damage inflict a very high damage.

Example: I play as a Guardian. Whit Cleric equipment my healt is 12.500, more or less.
If I find a Necro, I’m really F***d because a necro can give me 2k/sec damage of conditions (6 sec and I’m death), can inflict Poison that reduce all my healing ability (the base for a bunker build) and I can’t clean all the conditions that he give me. I can clean 2 conditions every 24-28-48 seconds. He can inflict all the conditions in 1 sec. (traits+signet+skills) and can convert my boons into conditions.
Whit my healing ability I can survive 12-15 sec, no more.

Against a dps, I can survive 30+sec easy, just whit CC skills (es Hammer), blocks, blind, aegis, etc.
A condition damage dealer is susheptible to blind, block, etc, but he can deal damage while you’re blocking it’s attacks.

Actually, Conditions win over DPS, in sPvP and 1vs1.

Digging up an older thread where I talked about this manner:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvP-What-s-the-point-of-raw-DPS/first#post3648161

People really underestimate direct damage.

Something interesting about PVP condi builds is that they’ll forgo condi duration, but not because it is more effective. The thing with condi duration is that it is more susceptible to cleanse. So, many condi builds will focus on defenses or more malice, assuming that additional ticks will probably be cleansed away anyway. But a condi duration stacked build against a build with few cleanses, and the duration adds up very quickly.

I have posted examples to you, I consider dire to be the counter part to soldier, toughness and vitality, power NEEDS crit and crit dmg along with those defensive stats or you WILL hit like a wet noodle.

Condition builds DO NOT NEED condy duration or precision to deal good DPS.

go run full dire on a necro/thief/mesmer or whatever condition build you wish to play, your conditions will hurt.

then go run full soldier on the same classes and look at the dmg difference.

yes you need precision and crit dmg, you most probably will get it from traits, but because crit dmg is being nerfed you will need more than you do now to keep up with the pressure a condition build can achieve.

Yes i can use berserker jewellery and get the crit dmg and precision that i will need, but the condition build counter part doesn’t need to sacrifice what i have to, he can continue using dire jewellery and be just fine, whereas me with the zerk jewellery just lost a lot of defensive stats for the much needed offensive stats.

I don’t understand how this isn’t making sense

Rezzet.3614:

rampager is the serker version of conditions wich is rendered useless when you can just slap some rabid trinkets on a full dire set

False. Jocksy and Drarnor explained already.

and again as its been said you cant compare serker to Dire its just too effective max suvivability

It’s quite a big strecth, don’t you think? Survivability depends on class too, gameplay, encounter, game mode etc.

and max damage in one package

Which is false again. See first comment.

no one’s trying to find a serker equivalent version of condi gear because serker is not a match give serker toughtness and vit and see how balanced it is lol

wut r u tlkin abut m8? Btw there is already vitality stat on zerker amulett in pvp, its fine.

the thing about conditions is theyir goal was to deal substained damage but instea their damage is pretty much done by bursts and appliea at ridiculous paces

If you facetank every direct attack, this happens too.

with no means to reduce damage outside of condi dure reduction wich is undone by simply eating pizza or koi cake

Melandru runes can help too and traits, skills and general game knowledge.

then theres stuff like this

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deep_Cuts
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hemophilia
50-80% bleeding duration from traits alone

Because when GW2 released, warriors could do damage only with bleeds and burning. Now with torment too.
Same with necro. They used “low” amount of bleed and a lot of different conditions to cover those, while the enemy slowly dies, thats why later it got burning, to compensate the coverage and low damage.

Ask for a rebalance with proper feedback and stop the whining.

A maxed direct damage warrior does 8073.5 dps before buffs from party members.
A maxed bleed-spec (3000 condi damage stat in the most extreme builds possible) warrior does 4800 dps max via bleed before buffs from party members. Adding direct component and miscellaneous conditions (I’m looking at you, Rune of Perplexity) they cannot breach 6000 no matter what.
Direct damage has no cap, condition damage does have a stack limit.
Direct already has a great damage advantage in return for sacrificing survivability while Dire-specced condition builds have less damage for much more survivability.
People who can’t calculate should not attempt to balance the game.
[/thread]

P.S. The warrior’s Deep Cuts IS OP beyond a doubt, looking at the duration increase relative to any other rune or any trait in any other class for conditions. That trait can be nerfed to 20% if you want.

@Silv when you are taking damage when you block due conditions then you were already hit if you are fighting a power build then that health would be already lost.

You’re blocks/invulnerability due stop conditions not on the damage front but on the application front. So you take less the damage but the difference is spread over time.

glaphen.5230:

Ashin.5986:

glaphen.5230:

Ashin.5986:

glaphen.5230:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vQAQFAGiAiUAAAA-zEBBYhApoFRjVdDTHjIqGA-w
49% with 20 points in Curses, going in 30 is a huge waste and the only precision runes that are worth it is 2 Lyssa for the condition duration and that gives a whole 1%.

Why do you consider it a “huge waste” to put the 10 more points into Curses on a condition build?

What else are you gonna get? Rest of the traits can’t be compared to Reaper’s Protection in WvW or Master of Terror in Spvp.

I don’t really see Reaper’s Protection as being so compelling for WvW. If I get disabled by the enemy zerg, fearing five of them is a nice disruption benefit for my team but it certainly won’t save me. I’m going down once I’m caught away from my zerg without stability.

This isn’t about zerging, power is obviously better for zerging but in anything with 10 players or less conditions are best.

So, before ranting about conditions being too strong, shouldn’t you think about the reasons why “power is obviously better” ??? Wow.

So… still no build showing what you’re claiming?

Ok, I’ll be on my way then.

Enjoy the errmagersh cond OP rants without basis.

Yes, another condition damage thread. Sorry for making it, but i want to get your opinion on an idea/phantasm of a concept i had.

Basicly what the title says. Deleting Condition Damage as a stat whatsoever.

There are three directions this would open up: Either

have every condition deal the same damage no matter who applies it (similar to how GW1 had conditions, could also go back to the more user-friendly regen/degen arrow system)

or

Have the damage inflicted by conditions take Power as their stat instead. This would of course need the revamping of algorythm calculates condi damage.

or

Give ONLY weapons condition damage stats, that would depend on the weapon and the class wielding it, to keep it balanced. So while a guardian holds a scepter, it would be heavily power based, but if a necro wielded the same scepter, it would boost condi damage instead.

This is just a base idea, and i cant comprehend the full volume of how it would work out. Would static and global condi damage (1st idea) make the condi/DoT playstyle impossible or shallow? Would condition damage using Power as its stat be too powerful, no matter how its balanced? Would the weapon+profession based condition damage be easier or harder to balance?

What do you think? (other than “it wont happen”, i know this is just another idea among the hundreds already)

As a PvE only player, It’s so funny to see all these “omg condition is op threads”.
I don’t know how overpowered condition builds are in sPvP. But in PvE they suck and desperately need to be buffed.

the first one would stupid since it would up becuase too low damage or it would OP because the tank would to much damage with them.

The second would be OP since conditions ignore toughness so a power condition fighter is prepared for both tanks (conditions) and dps’ers (base damage).

the third one one same reason as the one.

So no, condition damage is neccessairy.

Ikr. I play PvE only. I dont really know what the fuss is about in PvP, but i know im fully ignorant on the matter. Thats why i asked here how this idea would work out.

lakdav.3694:

Ikr. I play PvE only. I dont really know what the fuss is about in PvP, but i know im fully ingorant on the matter. Thats why i asked here how this idea would work out.

The problem with conditions is in my opion a mentally problem.

The first is the mentally around toughness vs vitality. Most people prefer toughness since it doesn’t devalue your healing. So they stack toughness for being more tanky but the problem with that is that conditions ignore toughness. So when they fight a condition user they fight with a stat less.

The second is the fact tha people play more cautious when they are on low health. They pop their invulnerability/blocks/… when they are losing but with conditions they are just preventing new conditions to be applied but old ones are still ticking and thus killing them.

The third one is a bit strange. A good defense against conditions is a good offense. Condition players need a longer fight, so if the fight is longer they are in a better position. When people are losing against a certain to seek better defenses but with condition you are just playing in their hand.

Last but not least is the best defense is condition removal, but knowing the right moment is very hard to do. The other defenses against like dodging/ blocking/… are less effective against condition due their smaller tells (which are neccessairy due to removal).

This are in my opinion why players have a problem with conditions.

I’m not sure I agree with you on your representation of DoT’s. They don’t hit people that run behind cover, they build up to the damage that they would have dealt if they were just a “damage” attack. Inherently, having a DoT tick on you after you run behind cover is no different than being hit with a normal attack before you duck behind cover. There are other factors that can play into this, such as the presence of healing ability (not all games that have DoT’s have easily accessible healing), or things like traps where their action is independent of the person who got hit. But, from a purely “getting hit causes your life to go down” perspective and cover? No difference at all.

Other than the “smaller tells,” I think you have it right, Tim.

Perhaps this should be the new advice to give to people struggling with condition builds: “Play like you’re a zerker spec, even if you aren’t.” Since very few folks build vitality, the defensive value of their gear is about equal, so they should use their active defenses as though they were glass cannons. At the same time, it pushes them to keeping engagements short, which is when condition builds are weakest.

Silv.9207:

1) You can apply conditions and run/defend waiting for the enemy death. A dps need to attack to inflict damage, you don’t.

This isn’t true at all.
In order to apply conditions, the condi user usually needs to hit with attacks that can be avoided/blocked/whatever just like power based moves. The damage will be dealt over time, but the source is still a direct hit.
In a situation where the condi user can fous on defense and wait for the enemy to die, equally damaging power skills would already finish that enemy.
This coupled with the player ability to cleanse conditions is the reason why condi specs needs to be given more room for defense than power ones.

The problem with condition damage is not the condition mechanic itself nor even that extra room for survivability. Some skills, traits and design choices are just overpowered and might require some kind of shaving.

From a WvW roaming perspective, Dire is one of the worst ideas ever.
There’s no Condition Duration gear (outside of maybe a Givers weapon) and Precision is only needed in small amounts. Most powerful on-crit procs (like Incendiary Powder or the current Dhuumfire) have a long enough CD to perform finely with a quite low critical chance (15%-20%, maybe even less), while the weaker ones (X% chance to inflict a short bleeding on criticals) usually result on a smaller damage improvement than a power based critical with no critical damage at all.

IMHO the reasonable extra room for defense has been always nicely covered by Rabid. Settler/Apothecary are a bit mor extreme but they’re not Condition major and often require trait and utility choices to capitalize the healing power.
Conditions go through armor and protection, and Poison reduces the effectiveness of healing, so they’re quite antibunkerish by nature. Allowing a condi user to make use of all the available room for defense the more bulky/passive way makes them too resilient to direct damage offensive specs, which should somehow be their counter.
The fact that Dire is not kicking into sPvP on top of the current state of conditions in PvE made me wonder what the hell was ANet thinking on when they released this set.

Condition duration foods are also extremely impactful and should be shaved or just deleted from the game (or WvW at least).

Outside of this, conditions are quite balanced IMHO and there are just a few skills/traits that might require some shaving/rework.
Engineer incendiary powder is going to require some rework sooner or later, for example. It’s a big chunk of damage that will eventually land no matter what the victim does and doesn’t promote skillful gameplay at all.
Such a trait prevents the engineer class to improve on different aspects that could be more interesting gameplay wise or could even misslead to undeserved nerfs, just like happened with Necromancer because of Dhuumfire (which uses pretty much the same mechanic atm).
Among other possible offenders, Necromancer scepter autoattack becomes quite a beast when a good amount of condtion duration is packed (I’m quite afraid on the new bleed based runesets providing a 45% duration increase) and Warrior Combustive Shot is maybe too much for a conquest mode now that it’s also the main trigger for Cleansing Ire.

I find the assumption that Power-builds need Power+Precision+Ferocity odd.

By that logic, wouldn’t condition-damage need Condition Damage + Precision + Condition Duration?

Power is what scales the raw damage of direct damage attacks. It’s the direct counterpart to what Condition Damage (or Malice) does for conditions. That’s it.

Carighan.6758:

I find the assumption that Power-builds need Power+Precision+Ferocity odd.

By that logic, wouldn’t condition-damage need Condition Damage + Precision + Condition Duration?

Power is what scales the raw damage of direct damage attacks. It’s the direct counterpart to what Condition Damage (or Malice) does for conditions. That’s it.

The impact of precision is quite smaller on Condi builds than on Power ones.
Look at Necromancer scepter autoattack and Barbed Precision for example.
The auto inflicts 5s of bleeding while the trait provides a 66% chance to inflict 2 more on crits. The improvement is clearly under the 50% power one, and that’s without critical damage at all which Condi builds have no use for.
You absolutely need it in order to maximize damage, but that’s a PvE thing. PvP is usually more about a good balance between offense, defense and utility, and precision tends to become cost ineffective once you’ve enough to reliably proc some powerful trait like dhuumfire (if your spec has such a thing).

Condition Duration is a bit tricky.
First of all, there’s almost no condition duration gear. It’s something that’s enhanced mostly through traits, runes/sigils and food (if available), so it still leaves a stat free slot which will probably go towards defense.
Secondly, it’s not something you want to max out. Long lasting conditions applications are likely to be cleansed (ASAP or eventually) if they land and won’t get any benefit from it. It’s more about reaching the sweetspot that slightly improves those short duration control effects and/or conditions that are constantly applied, like autoattacks.
Finally, it’s not related to any other secondary stat, so technically it can make good use of heavy investment on its own while allowing room for defense. A high investment on either Precision or Critical Damage often require to invest in the other one too for Power builds.
It’s probably closer to what final damage multipliers are for power builds (something that’s often overlooked in this discussion) than to precision or critical damage.

In any case, as I said before, this is mostly a WvW issue.
Pure conditions builds needs to chose between Settler or Rabid for sPvP.
The first one is not Condition major and often requires investing in traits and utilities that make good use of the healing power (which are usually unrelated to damage). It might create some annoying specs to fight 1on1, but the damage potential isn’t high and can be handled by decent team rotations.
The second one just provides a lot of precision, probably much more than desired.
It’s in WvW, with much more room for mix and match and something like Dire gear, where things get nasty.

Elvahaduken.3609:

I have posted examples to you, I consider dire to be the counter part to soldier, toughness and vitality, power NEEDS crit and crit dmg along with those defensive stats or you WILL hit like a wet noodle.

Condition builds DO NOT NEED condy duration or precision to deal good DPS.

go run full dire on a necro/thief/mesmer or whatever condition build you wish to play, your conditions will hurt.

dire isn’t good dps, not by a long shot. rabid, carrion and rampager do alot better dps and are far more effective in wvw generally, depending on what role you’re playing.

if you’re playing engie or necro having the 2 on crit traits proc in the first 2-3 attacks is one of the keys to win fights. those 2-3 attacks will have condies of their own and help pressure initially. then you have the direct damage part, which even if low in carrion/rabid condi builds it’s far from neglectable and it’s almost non-existent with dire. auto attacking for 400 and getting the on crit stuff as soon as they come off cooldown adds alot more pressure than autoattacking for 150 and needing 8 hits for a proc.

for me there’s hardly any reason to go dire on any class, an exception being small scale corrupt boon/epidemic necro which gets it’s damage in a different way.

the reason you see so many players using dire is mostly because dire gives the ilusion that they are doing good because they last that extra couple of seconds. the same reason you see so many mobility warriors, d/p thieves and pu mesmers, they might never kill anyone and run from every challenging fight but as long as they aren’t killed fast themselves the ilusion is mantained.

I’ve met some hybrid soldier necros and I gotta tell you, they are way scarier than a dire one.

?? Another thread they doesn’t say anything different? Every condi thread already compares gear dire v soldier. Why make another one that says nothing different? You could have posted this in another thread and get the same counter arguments from the same people.

If I make a warrior is op thread you know who will reply? The same people that posted in the other warrior thread both sides pro and anti nerf crowds.

oZii.2864:

?? Another thread they doesn’t say anything different? Every condi thread already compares gear dire v soldier. Why make another one that says nothing different? You could have posted this in another thread and get the same counter arguments from the same people.

If I make a warrior is op thread you know who will reply? The same people that posted in the other warrior thread both sides pro and anti nerf crowds.

Hi, yes it’s another thread stating the same crap, maybe if we do it enough Anet might actually DO something about it?

The reason I mention Dire is because I consider it the counter part to Soldier, I know full well that carrion/rabid and other such armour allows a condy build to dominate more but for comparisons sake I used Dire.

No one can deny this – currently condition builds are all bunkers that can deal decent damage, the counter part to this for direct damage builds NEED to sacrifice the defensive stats for offensive stats to get as much outcome that a condition build can achieve.

Add on top of that boons such as protection that lower direct damage even more. blocks and evades that ignore direct damage whereas conditions still tick no matter how many times you spam that dodge.

Yes there is condy removal and I know that counters it but conditions are easily applied.

This thread is no about conditions being OP, I don’t care about that. I just want to get across the sacrifice that power builds need to make in comparison to condition builds and I want to know how that is justified.

Tim.6450:

lakdav.3694:

Ikr. I play PvE only. I dont really know what the fuss is about in PvP, but i know im fully ingorant on the matter. Thats why i asked here how this idea would work out.

The problem with conditions is in my opion a mentally problem.

The first is the mentally around toughness vs vitality. Most people prefer toughness since it doesn’t devalue your healing. So they stack toughness for being more tanky but the problem with that is that conditions ignore toughness. So when they fight a condition user they fight with a stat less.

The second is the fact tha people play more cautious when they are on low health. They pop their invulnerability/blocks/… when they are losing but with conditions they are just preventing new conditions to be applied but old ones are still ticking and thus killing them.

The third one is a bit strange. A good defense against conditions is a good offense. Condition players need a longer fight, so if the fight is longer they are in a better position. When people are losing against a certain to seek better defenses but with condition you are just playing in their hand.

Last but not least is the best defense is condition removal, but knowing the right moment is very hard to do. The other defenses against like dodging/ blocking/… are less effective against condition due their smaller tells (which are neccessairy due to removal).

This are in my opinion why players have a problem with conditions.

never begin an argumentative essay with “in my opinion” it discredits all of your following support. You need to come off stronger, it isn’t your opinion, it is your stance. If you are going to tell everybody what the problem is. tell them, don’t tell them you think it is. Otherwise this was very well written.

Perhaps ANet isn’t doing anything about it because Condition builds already do have to make the same sacrifices for that durability as power builds? I understand you seem incapable of running the math and realizing how hard the various skills (both power and condition) actually hit with the different stat combos, but Soldier’s gear hits just as hard or harder as Dire.

Heck, even the Necro Scepter auto-attack, which has horrendous power scaling, deals more damage with Soldier’s gear than Dire on its auto attacks until you get at least +40% bleed duration and +25% poison duration (and that’s the break-even point).

Countering condition players is just as doable as countering zerks. It just requires a different skill set, one that the game doesn’t teach, but one learns over time. People complain that they can’t clear condis, but that’s your fault. You need to work a clear into your build. It’s easily doable.

I think the game would be more balanced if they just focused on different power specs indeed, then people would deviate away from grabbing condition removal.

any class with 0 condition damage:
Bleed = 43
burn = 328
confusion = 65
poison = 80

any class with 2000 condition damage
bleed = 143
burn = 828
confusion = 210
poison = 280

Now lets take hammer skills from a warrior.
only hammer no rune/armor/ammulets spvp stats
aa = 333/333/444
H2 = 518
H3 = 259
H4 = 370
H5 = 554
F1 = 370

now lets add full ascended gear
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vIAQFACGQQP0wqYLOKAQlQpwOqDA-zUBBofApmFRjtMqIasKbYqXER1kCgJlRA-w
3595 attack

aa = 927/927/1,235
H2 = 1,441
H3 = 720
H4 = 1,030
H5 = 1,543
F1 = 1,030

Wow looks like power scales way better than conditions.
oh and that passive 407 regen every second is just great

Learn how to mitigate conditions just like you learned how to mitigate burst power damage.

Conditions are already on a hard cap of 25 stack limit.
there is no such thing for power attacks.

you can have 100 condi necro’s stack all their bleeds on you but guess what you will only take 25 stacks no matter what.
on the opposite side if 100 hammer warriors just AA, that target will take all that damage.

Elvahaduken.3609:

This thread is no about conditions being OP, I don’t care about that. I just want to get across the sacrifice that power builds need to make in comparison to condition builds and I want to know how that is justified.

The stats are different they don’t kill the same and defense against them isn’t completely the same.

There is no sacrifice because they work different. Should we make special gear because Elementalist HPS with clerics gear can be greater then a guardian with the same amount of healing power?

You can’t just take gear a vs b without thinking about class or builds or anything.

Pop quiz!

Answer this one – Which in your opinion would have more success in full zerker out solo roaming? A) Guardian B,) Thief C) Mesmer D) B&C

Which class in your opinion will have more success in small groups in clerics gear?
A) Guardian B,) Thief C) Elementalist D) A&C

Now doesn’t the conversation look different when we actually look at the gear and go Direct v Direct on different classes. The same applies to power v condition.

When I go out on mesmer if full zerker roaming I don’t sacrifice anything I want to kill asap and I know I can get away with full zerker on my mesmer much more then I can on my elementalist.

Kyon.9735:

Aberrant.6749:

Kyon.9735:

Aberrant.6749:

Inaccurate… damage wise you need power/pre/crit dmg Vs. Cond/Pre/cond duration.

Depending on class the pre is extremely important. The burn from IP on eng is a large part of their damage. The classes that don’t have these sorts of things have other issues such as not being able to apply enough conditions to prevent cleansing.

The toughness/vit is needed more with a cond class because you need to be able to stay alive while the dot’s tick and be able to re-apply them as they are cleansed. Should those two stats be given for free on all armors as well? No, because you have similar tradeoffs with both power and cond.

Crit damage applies to all damage regardless while condition duration needs to hit the next 1s mark to do anything at all.

Damage wise power does more damage than conditions, but conds get other control benefits instead.

Seems pretty well balanced to me as is and I use both power and cond builds on a daily basis.

PvP-wise, most condi players especially engis don’t even take condi duration runes. It’s only “needed” in WvW because people use -Condi Duration food.

With the ease of applying conditions, all you need to do is apply a condi and go defensive as you watch your target waste his cleanses then you will simply reapply them again and go defensive.

Look at the PvP trinkets. Soldier, Barbarian, and Valkyrie amulets will never be fully utilized because it will always lack Precision or Crit Damage stat. Rabid, Carrion, and Settler however are deadly as they are even without Condi Duration or Precision.

PvP wise often they do. Getting +50% burn duration on Eng is huge. It’s not uncommon for an eng to take a sigil for +10% burning to hit that with traits + runes. Nightmare runes are common amongst many cond builds. It’s also a consideration when you’re building your trait-lines.

It’s not just spam conds then go defensive. That only works at lower stuff/hotjoin. There are so many ways that conds can get wiped/reduced/avoided it’s not even funny. You need to apply/reapply them at the right times to get the effects you need when you need them.

Conds also take longer Vs. Direct damage. In PvP this translates into longer times needed to kill & cap/decap points which translates into score.

If you don’t have pre you’re not getting the on crit procs. If you don’t have duration they’ll fall off faster due to reduction (again lower damage).

Still not seeing any problems.

So you say Condi Duration is a “needed” stat yet there are no trinkets that offer +condi duration which probably proves +condi duration is not considered a primary stat. Even without +Condi Duration, condis are very deadly in PvP.

And yes, from time to time you’ll find people running Nightmare Runes or Sigil of Smoldering but most of the time you’d see people use Runes of Adventurer or Sigil of Battle (especially on engis). The +Condi Duration bonus from traits are more than enough.

There are weapons with condition duration.

Its not an easy stat t come by, but it most certainly detracts from the total budget a player has to spend. (weapons + armor + trinkets + runes + sigils).

Runes spend on getting one thing are not being spend to get another. If i get condition duration from runes, i am not getting crit damage.

Brando.1374:

Conditions are already on a hard cap of 25 stack limit.
there is no such thing for power attacks.

you can have 100 condi necro’s stack all their bleeds on you but guess what you will only take 25 stacks no matter what.
on the opposite side if 100 hammer warriors just AA, that target will take all that damage.

True but my warrior can’t use all 5 abilities all at once, while a necro can put on me almost every single condition, I can cleanse them and they can put all those conditions on me again…

oZii.2864:

…
2) Conditions apply way to fast is like direct damage. You need to use your cleanse smartly not just spam it when you have cripple on you because you don’t like cripple(this happens alot). You don’t heal after you get auto attacked 1 time same thing applies to conditions. Also conditions can be healed through besides cleansed passive healing, regen, and any of your heal skills also help against conditions in addition to your cleanses.
..

haha lol sure. have fun with your melee dps weapon sticking to a ranged condi class appling dmg-condis + soft cc + weakness or any other counter. warrior is the only melee condi-exception. so cripple hurts what build more? or chill? or weakness? does condi-build needs to sacrifies utilities to be able to constantly apply pressure like raw dps?

funny how any one can argue for conditions, when just 1 normal spvp game can prove the opposite. funny how a condi-burst build can easily kill a bunker and dps class as soon the cleanses are on cooldown or some cc prevents them from using it.