Guild Wars 2

warriorjrd.8695:

crunchyraisin.6054:

List of reasons why rush is not heavily op:

1.) It is slower than RTL.
2.) Eles have twice as many skills to choose from, and should expect slightly longer cooldowns on similar skills because of this.
3.) RTL’s damage is aoe.
4.) Warriors and eles have completely different class mechanics. For warriors to be effective, they must melee. In order to melee effectively the class needs gap closers.
5.) Eles have a completely different set of utilities compared to warrior. At no point should an ele look at a warrior skill and say “eles should be able to do exactly the same thing” Just like warriors should not look at other classes and think they should be able to blind/aegis/aoe heal/teleport/stealth/pull etc…

Looking at point 3, RTl’s damage may be Aoe, but it hit hits nowhere near as high as rush can. Looking at point 4, D/D eles are basically melee as well and need gap closers too. Looking at point 5, I don’t think anybody is asking to remove the RTL nerf, but instead to move rush down to the same level. The issue here is both skills were/are being used for the same thing, which is escaping to reset a right. Rush should have the same penalty if you don’t hit a target, this really shouldn’t even be up for debate. The only reason you could see an issue with that is when you are one of the people who use to run away because you don’t know how to fight. If you actually use it to gap close, there would be no issue with the CD because you would hit them.

No….d/d eles are not basically aoe….and they have access to plenty of other movement skills and gap closers. Again, they have twice as many skills and an option to take fgs. Theses movement skills move faster than warrior movement skills.

To my knowledge…these skills are used as gap closers or to move to points more quickly.

If you’re biggest complaint is not being able to kill runners in small wvw skirmishes…then stop chasing squirrels and do something useful for your server.

Those sword/warhorn GS players are pretty much nothing but trolls. People need to learn to ignore them. The problem with them is being able to reduce incoming condi duration…not mobility.

coglin.1867:

It says a lot about your perspective when you actually attempt to lay equivalent value on en elite skill compared to a weapon skill.

We are not asking for miracles, but you could at least be more reasonable then to compare a weapon skill to an elite skill as if everyone was just going to accept that.

You’re one of “those” debaters….I believe they were simply asking you to consider that a very powerful ability does exist on ele, which is not unreasonable. Nobody said that the warrior skill should be as good as fgs…

I am curious, how does someone finding it irrational to make a flat comparison between a weapon skill and an elite skill make them “one” of anything?

A poster literally made an argument that rush is a justifiable skill because ele’s have FGS. It seems fairly reasonable to feel the justification doesn’t make sense.

crunchyraisin.6054:

warriorjrd.8695:

crunchyraisin.6054:

List of reasons why rush is not heavily op:

1.) It is slower than RTL.
2.) Eles have twice as many skills to choose from, and should expect slightly longer cooldowns on similar skills because of this.
3.) RTL’s damage is aoe.
4.) Warriors and eles have completely different class mechanics. For warriors to be effective, they must melee. In order to melee effectively the class needs gap closers.
5.) Eles have a completely different set of utilities compared to warrior. At no point should an ele look at a warrior skill and say “eles should be able to do exactly the same thing” Just like warriors should not look at other classes and think they should be able to blind/aegis/aoe heal/teleport/stealth/pull etc…

Looking at point 3, RTl’s damage may be Aoe, but it hit hits nowhere near as high as rush can. Looking at point 4, D/D eles are basically melee as well and need gap closers too. Looking at point 5, I don’t think anybody is asking to remove the RTL nerf, but instead to move rush down to the same level. The issue here is both skills were/are being used for the same thing, which is escaping to reset a right. Rush should have the same penalty if you don’t hit a target, this really shouldn’t even be up for debate. The only reason you could see an issue with that is when you are one of the people who use to run away because you don’t know how to fight. If you actually use it to gap close, there would be no issue with the CD because you would hit them.

No….d/d eles are not basically aoe….and they have access to plenty of other movement skills and gap closers. Again, they have twice as many skills and an option to take fgs. Theses movement skills move faster than warrior movement skills.

To my knowledge…these skills are used as gap closers or to move to points more quickly.

If you’re biggest complaint is not being able to kill runners in small wvw skirmishes…then stop chasing squirrels and do something useful for your server.

Those sword/warhorn GS players are pretty much nothing but trolls. People need to learn to ignore them. The problem with them is being able to reduce incoming condi duration…not mobility.

Yes because a 180s CD elites skill is the same as gs5. You must be a warrior because there is literally no downside to this if you only use this skill as a gap closer. If you close the gap, and hit the target, nothing changes. If you use to run away after you start losing a fight and don’t hit anything the CD increases. Where is the problem, unless you are one of the people that use to to run away and reset fights.

warriorjrd.8695:

Yes because a 180s CD elites skill is the same as gs5. You must be a warrior because there is literally no downside to this if you only use this skill as a gap closer. If you close the gap, and hit the target, nothing changes. If you use to run away after you start losing a fight and don’t hit anything the CD increases. Where is the problem, unless you are one of the people that use to to run away and reset fights.

The problem is this: hit the target

Rush is one of the most unreliably hitting skills warrior has. You can test it out by getting aggro of a NPC creature on the wild and when it starts to come towards you hit the rush on him. You will be missing that NPC more often than you hit even though the situation should be that it should always hit. The fact that this skill has a great chance to miss because the target is moving is a big problem and huge no-no for me when it comes to double CD.

I have already suggested in some other place that rush should be changed a bit. Should be lower damage, cleave attack and a lot faster hit animation than it is now. Then when it starts to reliably hit a target that is walking towards you we can talk about doubling the CD when it doesn’t hit.

This is the funny thing about these threads : people keep asking “nerf warrior mobility” but nobody ever says " nerf warrior mobility and maybe fix the skills that have been broken for almost 2 years now".

Because ultimately people don’t care about balance – they just want to see the thing they dislike nerfed so they can feel happy and good about themselves.

They’ve helped “balance” the game.

If Rush was changed today with a quick patch and the cooldown massively increased you wouldn’t see one of the people asking for its nerf going around "Hey – but you’ve now ruined it since the skill doesn’t work at all now – being usless as a mobility skill but also useless as a gap closer.
They’d happily go on their way to the thief forums or wherever else they like to complain.

Harper.4173:

This is the funny thing about these threads : people keep asking “nerf warrior mobility” but nobody ever says " nerf warrior mobility and maybe fix the skills that have been broken for almost 2 years now".

They’re not related. At least not directly.

Warrior-specific

• Mobility too high. Alternatively defence too high, offence too high or class not pigeon-holed enough.

Game-wide

• Lots of bugged skills.
• Lots of questionable skills.
• Needs more skill fact fixes. :P

Carighan.6758:

Harper.4173:

This is the funny thing about these threads : people keep asking “nerf warrior mobility” but nobody ever says " nerf warrior mobility and maybe fix the skills that have been broken for almost 2 years now".

They’re not related. At least not directly.

Warrior-specific

• Mobility too high. Alternatively defence too high, offence too high or class not pigeon-holed enough.

Game-wide

• Lots of bugged skills.
• Lots of questionable skills.
• Needs more skill fact fixes. :P

They are related because Rush is one of the skills that is bugged and broken. The skill has really high damage, but it rarely hits for it’s very obvious animation (which I’m all good with) and the fact that mobility skills such as Rush are really broken in this game.

If the skills would work as it should it would be really OP. Long travel distance, good speed and the damage is high combined with relatively short CD. But it’s broken and the damage part can be pretty much forgotten all together.

As it is now it’s good for repositioning, working like a blink and other teleport skills except the warrior moves to the place physically and not instantly teleporting. In the current form the skills is all good and balanced (CD could be increased a bit, say from 20s to 25s). It’s easy to interrupt and made near useless with cripple and chill (if warrior doesn’t have absurd amount of -condi duration for them which is another balance issue that is mainly the foods fault).

Right now most, if not all, gap closing/gap creation based skills are bugged or interact poorly with terrain so singling out Rush to be fixed has nothing to do with the discussion of whether or not the skill needs to be punished (cool down increase on miss) for being used as gap creation.

That being said the discussion may need to expand to cover all gap creation/closing skills and their effects on the game as a whole.

Rush cd reduced if it has a target in range when activated. End of discussion.

Plus it could involve some thinking for warrior for once!!!!!! They could rush to a neutral animal to have their cd reduced. But most warrior wont because → that class too straightfoward and toughtless.

Yeah. Like I said, I’d prefer all such skills to always require a target and need it in range. This’d solve a lot of this discussion outright, because it’d allow a clear split into gap closers and gap openers.

Harper.4173:

This is the funny thing about these threads : people keep asking “nerf warrior mobility” but nobody ever says " nerf warrior mobility and maybe fix the skills that have been broken for almost 2 years now".

Right, because you are here promoting the fixing of skills that have been broken for 2 years on other professions right? The problem it appears you have, is that a lot of players have leveled multiple professions, where you seem not to have. This limits your insight heavily and allows you to believe your profession is the only one with these issues.

What your missing is that every profession has skills they would love to use that have been broken since release only those professions do not have the highest health poll + the highest armor + the regen capability + the cleanse options of cleansing ire with non targeted F1 skills + good damage + ridiculous mobility all in the same build. I know because I have all of this in my build with GS+S/S or GS+S/WH with 0/6/4/0/4 build.

I simply want to enjoy the other 7 professions I leveled as well, without experience having taught me the warrior can do it all while the others cannot.

Harper.4173:

Because ultimately people don’t care about balance – they just want to see the thing they dislike nerfed so they can feel happy and good about themselves.

They’ve helped “balance” the game.

I disagree. I see a lot of players with multiple professions leveled who care about balance so that they do not feel underpowered when they want to play something else. Ultimately it is players such as yourself who are too warrior biased who seem to be so unreasonably against balance.

Harper.4173:

If Rush was changed today with a quick patch and the cooldown massively increased you wouldn’t see one of the people asking for its nerf going around "Hey – but you’ve now ruined it since the skill doesn’t work at all now – being usless as a mobility skill but also useless as a gap closer.
They’d happily go on their way to the thief forums or wherever else they like to complain.

I do not see you promoting the restoration of RTL. So your being highly hypocritical here.

Besides, not everyone thinks the CD on rush needs a big increase. Personally, I think it simply needs to require a target in range. this allows it to maintain all of its gap closing value, and limits is general mobility and escape value.

Carighan.6758:

Harper.4173:

This is the funny thing about these threads : people keep asking “nerf warrior mobility” but nobody ever says " nerf warrior mobility and maybe fix the skills that have been broken for almost 2 years now".

They’re not related. At least not directly.

Warrior-specific

• Mobility too high. Alternatively defence too high, offence too high or class not pigeon-holed enough.

Game-wide

• Lots of bugged skills.
• Lots of questionable skills.
• Needs more skill fact fixes. :P

I thought I was playing GW2 to not be pigeon-holed. I guess some people disagree.

And they are related – since this skill in this form at least has some utility.
Changing it without fixing the associated bug means you take away that utility but the skill is still broken – great balance isn’kitten

coglin.1867:

Right, because you are here promoting the fixing of skills that have been broken for 2 years on other professions right? The problem it appears you have, is that a lot of players have leveled multiple professions, where you seem not to have. This limits your insight heavily and allows you to believe your profession is the only one with these issues.
What your missing is that every profession has skills they would love to use that have been broken since release only those professions do not have the highest health poll + the highest armor + the regen capability + the cleanse options of cleansing ire with non targeted F1 skills + good damage + ridiculous mobility all in the same build. I know because I have all of this in my build with GS+S/S or GS+S/WH with 0/6/4/0/4 build.
I simply want to enjoy the other 7 professions I leveled as well, without experience having taught me the warrior can do it all while the others cannot.

I may not have been asking for fixes for other profession’s skills but at least I’m not asking for nerfs while hiding behind the “I want the game to be balanced” routine.
It’s not the requests for a nerf that bother me, it’s the false pretenses of balance.

Thank you for assuming I don’t play other professions – I have 4 level 80s – Warrior,Guardian, Necro and Ele.

Regarding your facts – you’ve got them wrong – warrior has highest health pool but tied with necro. Highest armor tied with guardian.

I also don’t see why you can’t play your other classes – the feeling you get that warrior is better than the other professions might be just you. Have you considered you’re doing better as warrior because maybe you’re not playing your other professions properly?

coglin.1867:

I do not see you promoting the restoration of RTL. So your being highly hypocritical here.

Besides, not everyone thinks the CD on rush needs a big increase. Personally, I think it simply needs to require a target in range. this allows it to maintain all of its gap closing value, and limits is general mobility and escape value.

You crack me up.
RTL is a skill that was nerfed in a completely different context. It also wasn’t bugged like Rush is. So after the nerf it still remained viable.
And while I am not promoting its restoration I am trying to actively fight people who single out a class and demand nerfs but actually don’t really care about balance.

Again I ask you – if you go ahead with your “fix” – with the skill being as bugged as it is does it retain any value?

Harper.4173:

I may not have been asking for fixes for other profession’s skills but at least I’m not asking for nerfs while hiding behind the “I want the game to be balanced” routine.
It’s not the requests for a nerf that bother me, it’s the false pretenses of balance.

Seems to me that is the exact reason to ask for an over powered combination to be nerfed. At least I am basing my opinions on experience with a good amount of time in every profession, rather then to keep my main over powered.

Harper.4173:

Regarding your facts – you’ve got them wrong – warrior has highest health pool but tied with necro. Highest armor tied with guardian.

I believe your a bit confused my friend. We have 3 armor rating and 3 health pool rating. The warrior has the highest of both. It is reasonably simple, so I am unclear how you got confused.

Harper.4173:

I also don’t see why you can’t play your other classes – the feeling you get that warrior is better than the other professions might be just you. Have you considered you’re doing better as warrior because maybe you’re not playing your other professions properly?

I actually don’t do better as a warrior. Your making cleanly uninformed conclusion to state as much. I was simply conveying my experience in addition to the thousands of other posters making similar complaints.

Harper.4173:

You crack me up.
RTL is a skill that was nerfed in a completely different context. It also wasn’t bugged like Rush is. So after the nerf it still remained viable.

I am glad I crack you up. You certainly seem like you could use the joy.

I am not sure you actually have any idea what the context was that it was nerfed under. As well, it actually does very literally have some of the same bug issues as rush. I suspect you do not have the experience playing a elementalist to know, but that is just a suspicion. As well, my suggested nerf would keep it extremely viable.

Harper.4173:

And while I am not promoting its restoration I am trying to actively fight people who single out a class and demand nerfs but actually don’t really care about balance.

Based on what I have seen of your post. I call shenanigans. You seems to consistently be very big into promoting the warrior over all. That is not conducive to your claims here. You are displaying a very bias close mindedness, if you think the simple request to have rush require a target in range so that it is fully functional as a gap closer as intended and not exploited and an unnecessary mobility,

Harper.4173:

Again I ask you – if you go ahead with your “fix” – with the skill being as bugged as it is does it retain any value?

Certainly. It retains its value as a gap closer completely. Which is why it is called a gap closer and not a escape/mobility utility. Put it in a utility slot with a more limited resource such as rocket boots or blink, and then it is a different discussion. Other wise it uses the much more accessible weapons skill resource. There is a reason it is called a gap closer and on a weapon. Because it is intended to close gaps for that weapons use, not to run away the instant you realize you engaged a player with a higher skill level then your own.

You appear blindly biased to me, when you pretend it had any more or less bugs in its function the RTL, swoop, rocket boots, blink, or infiltrator’s arrow. Fix rocket boots so they so not lock my engineer in place at the end of use and I might care about your crying about rush bugs. Fix my thieves infiltrator’s arrow and mesmers blink so the slightest, even visually unnoticeable change in land elevation doesn’t make either of the fail to function completely and I might care about how you cry about rush. Fix swoop so my ranger doesn’t get a force stop on a blade of grass and I might care about how you cry about rush.

So yeah, stop demanding the one, on your favored professions is the only one that gets attention, and sure, I back you 100%. As of now it is the only one you seem to care about, which puts forward a very clear notion of your display of irrational bias.

I’ll address some of these issues.

1.You are basing your requests in your own experiences – great – but don’t hide behind “balance” – you’re asking for a nerf because you want to be satisfied – not because the game needs balance.
I haven’t seen you asking for other improvements to balance except for the “nerf warrior” ones.

2.It’s you who has the health and armor values wrong. What I pointed out is valid and correct. Please see :
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Health

3.I did not make an “uninformed conclusion” regarding my theory that you do better on warrior – it derived from what you said.
And I quote :

“I simply want to enjoy the other 7 professions I leveled as well, without experience having taught me the warrior can do it all while the others cannot.”

So you admit that you’ve had experiences where you’ve supposedly had more advantages by playing a warrior. In other words you’ve done better as that warrior compared to how you do on your other classes since you supposedly noticed a difference
The logical deduction can then be made that it was easier/better for you on warrior as opposed to you on other classes.

How is this wrong?

4.How exactly does it remain valuable if you make it require a target to cast?

At its current state Rush has more value as a mobility tool than a gap closer since it hits so rarely you might as well not even try.
Let’s say your proposed solution is put in place – it would be a nerf – the skill no longer having the value it gives by allowing you to disengage.

But the skill already has very little value in allowing you to engage and its core value is in the ability to disengage – if you take that away how does it remain viable? Viable as what?
As a waste of your skillbar? You can no longer use it to disengage ( value drops) but it can’t be used reliably to engage ( value stays the same) so how exactly does it still remain viable?

Viable for what? Offering yourself on the altar of sacrifice?

5.Fun stuff -I call shenanigans as well – I’ve rarely seen you provide any other useful balance feedback except for your favorite " nerf warrior – nerf it now" attitude.

Rush is not only a gap closer – it is a Leap Skill – it’s not intended only to close a gap between a target and yourself.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap

A leap is a skill mechanic that causes the user to rapidly move forward a certain distance. This may be to attack an enemy target, move to a targeted area, or move to an ally. Leap skills are used for positioning and thus control in battle. Compared to other gap closers, leaping increases the movement speed of the player to close the distance and is affected by swiftness, crippled, chilled, immobilized or any other effects that modify movement speed. Due to the rapid movement, leap skills can move the player out of the range of an attack similar to dodging.

How is using a skill the way it was designed and put in the game “exploiting” ?
Nice use of buzzwords instead of arguments.

Also I like how you’ve added “unnecessary mobility” since of course you’d be the one to know.

7. I would very much like to ask you to stop spreading misinformation on the forums

That being said – nowhere is the skill Rush defined as a gap closer – except of course your posts where you conveniently catalog it as such.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rush

do you gap closer written anywhere?

Oh – fun fact – you won’t because it’s actually a Leap skill – see above – smack down in middle of a list of Leap Skills that I provided earlier.

You mention my “irrational bias” but fail to see your own.
I’m not the one asking for nerfs – I’m just saying that maybe before people like yourself being asking for this or that to be nerfed – MAYBE -those aspects should be first FIXED.

You can’t balance something that hardly works in the first place – you need to fix the bugs first and then have a look at it.

Also – I think you’d have more success if you actually asked for bug fixes for the things you care about and maybe ask for nerfs after.

You do understand that the wiki is maintained by random fans, while in 7 different ready ups the developers specifically call it a “gap closer”. Sorry, but I think it is wiser to take the video evidence of the devs repeated statements over that of yours and any random person that can sign in and update the wiki. Kind of amusing when uninformed posters act as if the wiki is an encyclopedia.

so lets see, people want rush to be ONLY a gap closer, that does no damage, and is affected by cripple chill and immob, on a weapon set that already has only 1 skill that can reliably hit someone outside of the weak autoattack.

so you want gs to be a pve only weapon, got it.

“Necromancer has 0 leaps/mobility skills.

Nerf ele mobility pls!"

This thread make that much sense.

Make Rush invulnerable to movement conditions like RtL. Make it have an AoE instant hit skill at the end of it which increases the chances of hitting something incredibly. Nerf the hell out of FGS, which gives elementalists unparallelled mobility.

Then you can nerf Rush the same way.

Or just stop compairing two skills that are so different.

Cygnus.6903:

Make Rush invulnerable to movement conditions like RtL. Make it have an AoE instant hit skill at the end of it which increases the chances of hitting something incredibly. Nerf the hell out of FGS, which gives elementalists unparallelled mobility.

Then you can nerf Rush the same way.

Or just stop compairing two skills that are so different.

Yeah, it’s pretty stupid. I mean I readily agree Warrior mobility is too high if we want to keep everything else the way it is (and honestly for a Warrior I’d rather have something like high damage, high defence, high stability but low mobility and dependent of team mates to hold the enemies in place). But that’s not the fault of something like Rush in particular.

Carighan.6758:

Cygnus.6903:

Make Rush invulnerable to movement conditions like RtL. Make it have an AoE instant hit skill at the end of it which increases the chances of hitting something incredibly. Nerf the hell out of FGS, which gives elementalists unparallelled mobility.

Then you can nerf Rush the same way.

Or just stop compairing two skills that are so different.

Yeah, it’s pretty stupid. I mean I readily agree Warrior mobility is too high if we want to keep everything else the way it is (and honestly for a Warrior I’d rather have something like high damage, high defence, high stability but low mobility and dependent of team mates to hold the enemies in place). But that’s not the fault of something like Rush in particular.

I agree with you on the high mobility part. I would not mind an adjustment to Rush. Especially if it would come with an improvement to the skill, which is also needed.

Cygnus.6903:

Carighan.6758:

Cygnus.6903:

Make Rush invulnerable to movement conditions like RtL. Make it have an AoE instant hit skill at the end of it which increases the chances of hitting something incredibly. Nerf the hell out of FGS, which gives elementalists unparallelled mobility.

Then you can nerf Rush the same way.

Or just stop compairing two skills that are so different.

Yeah, it’s pretty stupid. I mean I readily agree Warrior mobility is too high if we want to keep everything else the way it is (and honestly for a Warrior I’d rather have something like high damage, high defence, high stability but low mobility and dependent of team mates to hold the enemies in place). But that’s not the fault of something like Rush in particular.

I agree with you on the high mobility part. I would not mind an adjustment to Rush. Especially if it would come with an improvement to the skill, which is also needed.

I hope with low mobility you two mean lower than it is at the moment. I don’t really want to see everyone and their cat start to kite warriors, especially with a lot of professions having instant cast teleports that you can use even when disabled.

I’m all for lowering warrior mobility as it can get rather high at the moment, but lowering it too much means warriors will become near useless on most 1 on 1 fights between warrior and ranged kiter.

Maybe just nerf the distance a bit?

Paavotar.3971:

I hope with low mobility you two mean lower than it is at the moment. I don’t really want to see everyone and their cat start to kite warriors, especially with a lot of professions having instant cast teleports that you can use even when disabled.

Not realistically, no.

If I were to have a go at the balance system full-out, I’d give each class 2-3 distinct downsides. Of which one is big (it affects you constantly) and the others are minor (they annoy you at times but they don’t generally screw you over). On the flipside, each class also brings 1-2 things to the table which fix such downsides in other classes.

My major downside for Warriors would be lack of movement speed improvement, mobility and skills to keep enemies in place. In short, Warriors are easy to keep a distance to. Since they have 1200 range weapons this doesn’t necessarily imply kiting, but easy of entirely disengaging. On the other hand, Warriors would bring superior Stability to the party, allowing people to shrug off CC. They’d be dependent on external help for keeping their targets in reach and place.

But like I said, that’d be in case I were to redesign all classes. I’d give each a distinct downside or three, where they are dependent on the other classes. A bit like the class balance in TF2 works where no class is an island.

Carighan.6758:

Paavotar.3971:

I hope with low mobility you two mean lower than it is at the moment. I don’t really want to see everyone and their cat start to kite warriors, especially with a lot of professions having instant cast teleports that you can use even when disabled.

My major downside for Warriors would be lack of movement speed improvement, mobility and skills to keep enemies in place. In short, Warriors are easy to keep a distance to. Since they have 1200 range weapons this doesn’t necessarily imply kiting, but easy of entirely disengaging. On the other hand, Warriors would bring superior Stability to the party, allowing people to shrug off CC. They’d be dependent on external help for keeping their targets in reach and place.

And this is where we disagree completely.

What you’re suggesting is that warriors should be easily kited if they go full melee (which they frikin should). This will force every warrior to go longbow even more then is the case right now, as rifle sucks. On top of that, longbow is in fact a melee weapon the way it functions in battle.

And everybody should be able to disengage warriors? So the QQ about warriors disengaging should then be QQ about everything else disengaging?

No, this would ruin warrior as a class entirely.

Cygnus.6903:

Carighan.6758:

Paavotar.3971:

I hope with low mobility you two mean lower than it is at the moment. I don’t really want to see everyone and their cat start to kite warriors, especially with a lot of professions having instant cast teleports that you can use even when disabled.

My major downside for Warriors would be lack of movement speed improvement, mobility and skills to keep enemies in place. In short, Warriors are easy to keep a distance to. Since they have 1200 range weapons this doesn’t necessarily imply kiting, but easy of entirely disengaging. On the other hand, Warriors would bring superior Stability to the party, allowing people to shrug off CC. They’d be dependent on external help for keeping their targets in reach and place.

And this is where we disagree completely.

What you’re suggesting is that warriors should be easily kited if they go full melee (which they frikin should). This will force every warrior to go longbow even more then is the case right now, as rifle sucks. On top of that, longbow is in fact a melee weapon the way it functions in battle.

And everybody should be able to disengage warriors? So the QQ about warriors disengaging should then be QQ about everything else disengaging?

No, this would ruin warrior as a class entirely.

Exactly so.
No class should be dependent on other classes to “hold enemies in place for them”.

I’d rather not have Rush changed at all – but if it does end up changing it should happen after the bug is fixed.
Remember the way they handled the Healing Signet nerf? – first they announce on the forums that they won’t be nerfing the passive until they have a proper idea to change the active and then what do they do?

They nerf the passive without any change to the active.

You can see why I don’t exactly trust them to do a good job.

Cygnus.6903:

And this is where we disagree completely.

What you’re suggesting is that warriors should be easily kited if they go full melee (which they frikin should). This will force every warrior to go longbow even more then is the case right now, as rifle sucks. On top of that, longbow is in fact a melee weapon the way it functions in battle.

And everybody should be able to disengage warriors? So the QQ about warriors disengaging should then be QQ about everything else disengaging?

No, this would ruin warrior as a class entirely.

Tsk, tsk, quote the other part. :P
Warriors would not be the only class with such an existential downside to their combat performance. In fact, all 8 classes would have one each. One class would be trivially CCed. One would be unable to fight back when the enemy disengages. One would be tissue paper. One would have no way to counter conditions. Etc, etc. Oh and 2-3 classes provide a mechanic which covers that classes’ downside.

Like I said, TF2-style class balance by giving everyone a significant weakness the other classes can make up for them. No, this does not make 1v1 pointless, at least not any more or less than it already is. :P

Carighan.6758:

Cygnus.6903:

And this is where we disagree completely.

What you’re suggesting is that warriors should be easily kited if they go full melee (which they frikin should). This will force every warrior to go longbow even more then is the case right now, as rifle sucks. On top of that, longbow is in fact a melee weapon the way it functions in battle.

And everybody should be able to disengage warriors? So the QQ about warriors disengaging should then be QQ about everything else disengaging?

No, this would ruin warrior as a class entirely.

Tsk, tsk, quote the other part. :P
Warriors would not be the only class with such an existential downside to their combat performance. In fact, all 8 classes would have one each. One class would be trivially CCed. One would be unable to fight back when the enemy disengages. One would be tissue paper. One would have no way to counter conditions. Etc, etc. Oh and 2-3 classes provide a mechanic which covers that classes’ downside.

Like I said, TF2-style class balance by giving everyone a significant weakness the other classes can make up for them. No, this does not make 1v1 pointless, at least not any more or less than it already is. :P

But you would remove options. For instance, roaming solo or in a small group setting would become impossible for warrior, as not only can you not escape, but you can not kill anything because everything would run from you. I do not wish to be forced to play a different class just because people don’t want to chase me if they got me in an ‘unfair’ position.

Being able to play any class in any part of the game is the beauty of GW2, and I will not have your persona destroy it!

It’s insane how many people complain about warriors escaping. Is it worse because you can see a warrior, as opposed to thieves or mesmers who do exactly the same thing but in stealth?

Yes but like I said, it was a hypothetical idea because all classes would not function solo. That is they could fight, just not well. Each class would have a glaring hole in their toolset if not supported by someone else.

And well, the issue with Warriors IMO is not in how they can escape (alone) or catch up (alone). It’s the whole package. It’s so well rounded. The devs were even struggling with class downsides during the stream about that. The mix of skills, fast swapping ,traits and utilities has Warriors bring whatever is currently needed, and have enough of it to be self-sufficient. Even tons of group support when required.
And it’s this “Jack of all trades, and still good at each single thing” which is so annoying. With Thieves, I know that if we have some excess AEs to aim in their general direction they will be toast. Without fail. Every time. With Mesmers, same, AE killing the clones instantly and they might as well stand by the sidelines and wave. Etc, etc. With Warriors ,you can’t ever catch them on their bad day, because they don’t have one.

So individually, each single point is not perfect. But the mix is so well rounded that it just out-does any other class. If anyone asks which class to pick up, would you (if they have no previous bias) really not tell them Warriors because you simply cannot ever go wrong with it? PvE, WvW, sPvP, any role, Warriors can always make it work.

(edit)
And yes, in theory that would be the ideal for balance. But the other 7 classes are at times so far from it that it really stings.

Carighan.6758:

So individually, each single point is not perfect. But the mix is so well rounded that it just out-does any other class. If anyone asks which class to pick up, would you (if they have no previous bias) really not tell them Warriors because you simply cannot ever go wrong with it? PvE, WvW, sPvP, any role, Warriors can always make it work.

(edit)
And yes, in theory that would be the ideal for balance. But the other 7 classes are at times so far from it that it really stings.

I would tell them to pick up a warrior. I would tell them that the warrior does very well in most aspects of the game. I would also tell them, that in every aspect of the game bar high level tournament PvP, warrior is outclassed by at least two classes. This is where we disagree. Jack of all trades, sure, warrior does well in every aspect, so it is definitely a good pick for somebody who wants to play the entire game.

I am fine with that, as I do well enough in the areas of the game that I like.

The main reason to play warrior though is because it is a lot of fun. For me, most of that comes from the fact that warriors as it stands are versatile; most builds can do more or less ok even if they are not optimal.

Cygnus.6903:

Make Rush invulnerable to movement conditions like RtL. Make it have an AoE instant hit skill at the end of it which increases the chances of hitting something incredibly. Nerf the hell out of FGS, which gives elementalists unparallelled mobility.

Then you can nerf Rush the same way.

Or just stop compairing two skills that are so different.

I feel you misunderstand entirely. The two skills do not have to be the same, or even similar, to be compared. All they have to so is cause a profession to have or not have something. What the community states as their reason to request a change to rush, is precisely the reason that the devs stated they nerfed RTL. When skills cause an issue with a profession, what the skills do or how they function is irrelevant. What is relavent, is how it effects the profession.

Paavotar.3971:

I hope with low mobility you two mean lower than it is at the moment. I don’t really want to see everyone and their cat start to kite warriors, especially with a lot of professions having instant cast teleports that you can use even when disabled.

I’m all for lowering warrior mobility as it can get rather high at the moment, but lowering it too much means warriors will become near useless on most 1 on 1 fights between warrior and ranged kiter.

I agree with you here. I have stated this repeatedly on the other threads, but as I see it, all they need to do is require a target that is in range, for the skill to function, and it will do its job well.

coglin.1867:

Cygnus.6903:

Make Rush invulnerable to movement conditions like RtL. Make it have an AoE instant hit skill at the end of it which increases the chances of hitting something incredibly. Nerf the hell out of FGS, which gives elementalists unparallelled mobility.

Then you can nerf Rush the same way.

Or just stop compairing two skills that are so different.

I feel you misunderstand entirely. The two skills do not have to be the same, or even similar, to be compared. All they have to so is cause a profession to have or not have something. What the community states as their reason to request a change to rush, is precisely the reason that the devs stated they nerfed RTL. When skills cause an issue with a profession, what the skills do or how they function is irrelevant. What is relavent, is how it effects the profession.

Paavotar.3971:

I hope with low mobility you two mean lower than it is at the moment. I don’t really want to see everyone and their cat start to kite warriors, especially with a lot of professions having instant cast teleports that you can use even when disabled.

I’m all for lowering warrior mobility as it can get rather high at the moment, but lowering it too much means warriors will become near useless on most 1 on 1 fights between warrior and ranged kiter.

I agree with you here. I have stated this repeatedly on the other threads, but as I see it, all they need to do is require a target that is in range, for the skill to function, and it will do its job well.

So wait, am I reading this right? When a skill causes an issue with a profession how it functions or what the skill does is irrelevant. And what is relevant is how it effects the profession.

Please read this again for a second because this makes zero sense.

How it functions absolutely does need to be taken into account. You need to take all things into account when analyzing a skill, what it does, what it is used for etc. For you to even begin to nerf a skill you need to know what it does because all of this ties into how it effects the profession.

I just find it ridiculous some of the suggestions that people come up with. At first people are saying OMG OMG greatsword too much mobility then other people are like well well there needs to be a trade off because warriors have the highest HP/toughness. And it is always the same people lol.

Why do people complain so much that classes can run away. Big deal. Almost any class can disengage if built for it somewhat, and pretty well. Thieves, Mesmers, Rangers, Elementalists, Engineers, Guardians, pretty much every class save a Necro. If they have to run away from you that means you’ve won.

It just seems like people complaining about the mobility, namely the disengage potential is because they throw a tantrum or a child-fit whenever a Warrior escapes them. Most classes if they want to escape can do it fairly well.

If you look at the Greatsword by itself in WvW it absolutely is a tradeoff between mobility and damage. Rush isn’t very reliable, Bladetrail is easily side-stepped, Hundred Blades needs some form of CC in order for it to hit and it roots you, Whirlwind isn’t hard to dodge either. And the auto-attack isn’t very strong.

And hey, if Rush does require a target in the future, I don’t see why other skills shouldn’t receive the same treatment because many of them work functionally similar. And maybe we can all target bunnies. And also lose a way to strategically create gaps between the opponent and switch to perhaps a ranged weapon, further restricting the combat system.

If anything, shorten the range of it a little bit, maybe give it a 25 second cooldown. Done and Done.

killahmayne.9518:

So wait, am I reading this right? When a skill causes an issue with a profession how it functions or what the skill does is irrelevant. And what is relevant is how it effects the profession.

Please read this again for a second because this makes zero sense.

How it functions absolutely does need to be taken into account. You need to take all things into account when analyzing a skill, what it does, what it is used for etc. For you to even begin to nerf a skill you need to know what it does because all of this ties into how it effects the profession.

I do not care what you feel “does need to be taken into account.” I was simply relaying what the devs said in one of the recent ready ups.

The point I think they were trying to make is that how a skill or trait functions in conjunction with the professions other skills is far more relavent then the skill or trait itself.

killahmayne.9518:

Why do people complain so much that classes can run away. Big deal. Almost any class can disengage if built for it somewhat, and pretty well. Thieves, Mesmers, Rangers, Elementalists, Engineers, Guardians, pretty much every class save a Necro. If they have to run away from you that means you’ve won.

Your missing the point. It is not whether a profession can simply escape either. It is how mobile it makes them in general to traverse a map. As well, on the issue of escape, how easily it can be done is relevant It makes thematically sense that professions with lower health/defense/regen would be capable to escape or reset a fight. It is not conducive to common sense or balance that a hard hitting, high defensem high armor, high regen build escape easier then those professions.

killahmayne.9518:

It just seems like people complaining about the mobility, namely the disengage potential is because they throw a tantrum or a child-fit whenever a Warrior escapes them. Most classes if they want to escape can do it fairly well.

To me, this is precisely what your doing. Simply because other players are discussing something that the generally community appear to be behind.

killahmayne.9518:

And hey, if Rush does require a target in the future, I don’t see why other skills shouldn’t receive the same treatment because many of them work functionally similar. And maybe we can all target bunnies. And also lose a way to strategically create gaps between the opponent and switch to perhaps a ranged weapon, further restricting the combat system.

Some other skills already do. Do you really want congruent treatment among similar abilities? If so, then rush needs to go on a longer cool down when it doesn’t connect, like RTL. As well it needs to root you in place like rocket boots. Require a targeting function like blink.

If your demanding that mobility skills need similar treatment, then your suggesting you feel it needs a nerf.

Ele also has 8 more skills than a warrior does. Equality can not be decided meerly based on cool downs. Warrior cannot do what an ele can, they cannot have GS, Hammer, shout heals, and triple stances all in the same build.

It isn’t about what I feel needs to be taken into account. It is about everything about the skill and how it functions and what it does that needs to be.

I agree it isn’t just about escaping. I just pointed that out because it is one of the main arguments and that I wanted to address that. Doesn’t mean I am missing the point. When somebody mentions a targetting function for Rush, they most likely point to Rush being used exclusively as a gap closer and taking away its ability to seperate distance.

A warrior isn’t a high regen/healing class just because it equips Healing Signet either. Does it heal for more HPS than many other heals out there? Yes it does. But a Warrior isn’t naturally a high regen class to begin with. Guardians and Elementalists are.

Also there is a problem with grouping a single class as having high defense/high HP, etc based on the fact multiple classes have multiple different builds. For example some warrior builds don’t have high Defense/high HP. But because they are a warrior and they have naturally higher base stats they should barely have any mobility. Or if a D/D ele has high defense/high HP they should have absolutely amazing through the roof mobility just because they naturally have lower base stats?

It also thematically makes sense that according to the vision of ANet who state that warriors are masters of weaponry that who rely on speed, strength and toughness to have the ability to cover distances. It also doesn’t make sense thematically that a scholarly profession has the athletic ability to cover great distances and have super high mobility either. We can argue thematically all day it doesn’t get anywhere.

It doesn’t always make sense for classes that have lower health/regen/defense to have more of an ability to escape and reset fights. As long as they have versatility, which many classes and builds actually do.

I guess though if you consider the forums as a large portion of the "general community" and nevermind it is usually the same people complaining/arguing about Warrior mobility and never mind there are people who are against some of the suggestions being made then yes, the "general community" APPEARS to be behind it. Almost like the whole thing about conditions right?

And while some skills may be functionally similar to Rush in terms of getting you from point A to point B, they are very different at the same time. For example the ones that require specific targets are Guardian teleports. The vast majority of simple mobility skills do not require a target. Swoop, Savage Leap, Leap of Faith, Rush, Monarch’s Leap, RTL, Burning Speed, Burning Retreat, Phase Retreat, the list can go on forever. And having a targeting function like blink doesn’t really change much of anything. If Rush had a targeting function like Blink you would just simply click anywhere you wanted to go rather than pointing your character in a certain direction.

I honestly wouldn’t mind if Rush got the same treatment as RTL. Just make the skill more reliable to hit, less susceptible to chill, cripple and immobilize and have it traverse distances faster. But RTL and Rush are far from congruent skills. I am not asking for skills to be congruent. I am just saying why Rush exclusively would need to have somebody targetted when there are a billion other skills very similar to it that don’t need a target. Especially because some people who get mad because a warrior escapes, why are we the only class deserving of this "special treatment". Doesn’t make sense.

Good thing I am only demanding that other very similar mobility skills be treated the same when it comes to a targetting function. Not that I agree with such skills requiring a target. Which truthfully I don’t. I already suggested easy, possible solutions without having to change functionality, good bye.

killahmayne.9518:

I guess though if you consider the forums as a large portion of the “general community” and nevermind it is usually the same people complaining/arguing about Warrior mobility and never mind there are people who are against some of the suggestions being made then yes, the “general community” APPEARS to be behind it. Almost like the whole thing about conditions right?

That is odd. Because when I look at it, over months I have seen hundreds of various posters proclaiming the mobility is too much. And only the same 19 or less die hard warrior fans who contest it.

killahmayne.9518:

It also thematically makes sense that according to the vision of ANet who state that warriors are masters of weaponry that who rely on speed, strength and toughness to have the ability to cover distances. It also doesn’t make sense thematically that a scholarly profession has the athletic ability to cover great distances and have super high mobility either. We can argue thematically all day it doesn’t get anywhere.

Hmm, it seems you confuse speed with mobility. They have already stated in a video when discussing this, that it is speed of hand and referenced hundred blades.

You keep making statements that very specifically go against what they devs have posted videos of them saying. Why is that?

coglin.1867:

killahmayne.9518:

I guess though if you consider the forums as a large portion of the “general community” and nevermind it is usually the same people complaining/arguing about Warrior mobility and never mind there are people who are against some of the suggestions being made then yes, the “general community” APPEARS to be behind it. Almost like the whole thing about conditions right?

That is odd. Because when I look at it, over months I have seen hundreds of various posters proclaiming the mobility is too much. And only the same 19 or less die hard warrior fans who contest it.

killahmayne.9518:

It also thematically makes sense that according to the vision of ANet who state that warriors are masters of weaponry that who rely on speed, strength and toughness to have the ability to cover distances. It also doesn’t make sense thematically that a scholarly profession has the athletic ability to cover great distances and have super high mobility either. We can argue thematically all day it doesn’t get anywhere.

Hmm, it seems you confuse speed with mobility. They have already stated in a video when discussing this, that it is speed of hand and referenced hundred blades.

You keep making statements that very specifically go against what they devs have posted videos of them saying. Why is that?

And that so called “100’s” of people over a span of close to a year against warrior Mobility somehow represents the general community at large? And there are only 19 or less of the same die hard warrior fans that go against that notion?

And the devs have also mentioned in previous streams as well that warriors being an athletic body have mobility as it is an intent in their design, and have never refuted that. So that doesn’t go against what the Devs say in terms of how they vision the class.

killahmayne.9518:

And the devs have also mentioned in previous streams as well that warriors being an athletic body have mobility as it is an intent in their design, and have never refuted that. So that doesn’t go against what the Devs say in terms of how they vision the class.

Care to link the video and perhaps offer the time stamp of when they suggested that. I keep up with those pretty closely, and the only time they ever mention mobility in the context of the warrior was in reference of closing a gap to get inside and melee. I am fairly sure your mistaken, or took it out of context of what they actually said. As all information, to my knowledge contradicts what your suggesting, unless you can point out where, it is hard to accept what your saying here.

As well, based on what you guys are talking about with poster numbers, I have seen hundreds of different posters speak out about this in just this month, so I am not certain how you justify claiming it was over two years. Personally, it sure looks to me as if you are simply fighting to keep your preferred profession OP instead of arguing from a perspective of balance. How many of the other professions have you leveled that gives you such insight in how they compare to warrior?

Gimme back my 20sec cd!

I remember the stream they said warrior was in a good place. It was before the HS nerf. Look it up.

@dancing – there’s only a few who complain – the same few.

So now we are just going to reiterate what the devs say, without actually arguing wether or not they are on the right track? Is that not the whole point of this toilet bin of a forum?

coglin.1867:

I feel you misunderstand entirely. The two skills do not have to be the same, or even similar, to be compared. All they have to so is cause a profession to have or not have something. What the community states as their reason to request a change to rush, is precisely the reason that the devs stated they nerfed RTL. When skills cause an issue with a profession, what the skills do or how they function is irrelevant. What is relavent, is how it effects the profession.

I don’t misunderstand, I simply disagree with you. No need to patronize me.

If you say skill A got nerfed because of reason X, and skill B should also be nerfed because of reason X, then skill A and B need to be similar for X to apply. The only similarity between A and B in this case is the range that it travels you, and, before the RtL nerf, the cooldown. You might say that just this similarity is what allows reason X to be applied to both, but then you are the one misunderstanding. Because the nerf will then make skill B incredibly underpowered compared to skill A. And that’s without considering that the user of skill A has the entire alfabet of skills after he failed miserably with skill A, whereas user B has just wasted 10% of his weapon skills.

The fact that other then that one similarity these two skills are completely different should mean that you can not indiscriminately treat them the same way.

Btw anybody considered the skill name? It is rush – I guess it should be gap closer not maker. Rush into poinblank. About subject, I have warrior and ele (maining dd), with war I can fly around laughing, with ele I just pray when initiating for target not to evade. Someone said gs is useless? Try to equip mace mainhand (along with +50%crit on stunned foes) 17k crits welcome. Also ppl tend to use bulls charge making gs perfectly viable.

i agree, RTL should be affected by Chill and Cripple so have it’s movement speed and distance reduced by 66%

and RTL hit the target too easily, we should make it like rush, where you almost miss 50% of the time.

also We need to give Warrior 20 weapon skills while at it, because making one skill within 20 the same as one skill within 10 is unfair.

Ofc, after all, RTL needs to hit as hard as Rush does.

Simon.3794:

i agree, RTL should be affected by Chill and Cripple so have it’s movement speed and distance reduced by 66%

and RTL hit the target too easily, we should make it like rush, where you almost miss 50% of the time.

also We need to give Warrior 20 weapon skills while at it, because making one skill within 20 the same as one skill within 10 is unfair.

Ofc, after all, RTL needs to hit as hard as Rush does.

dude, you forgot the end root slash. I think eles are jealous of that rooting uppercut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=I_N10voiBls#t=332

Simon.3794:

i agree, RTL should be affected by Chill and Cripple so have it’s movement speed and distance reduced by 66%

Ok but then it should be affected by swiftness also.

and RTL hit the target too easily, we should make it like rush, where you almost miss 50% of the time.

RTL never hits and its quite famous to stun itself since release.

I won t comment the 20 skill stuff since i would gladly trade 10 skill for the same efficiency of a warrior.
Ele has mostly 8 skills with subpar copies in other elements and no autoattack.

I don’t think that distance of movement skills should in fact change by Cripple or Chilled at all. It makes things unintuitive for newcomers. The conditions tell you that you move slower, they don’t tell you anything about the range-number on the movement skill no longer being accurate.

In other words, I’d make Cripple/Chilled affect the speed at which you move but not the distance.

Carighan.6758:

I don’t think that distance of movement skills should in fact change by Cripple or Chilled at all. It makes things unintuitive for newcomers. The conditions tell you that you move slower, they don’t tell you anything about the range-number on the movement skill no longer being accurate.

In other words, I’d make Cripple/Chilled affect the speed at which you move but not the distance.

This change would it actually make it even worse for newcomers who don’t know any good way to cancel out rush. Consider it that you move 1200 units in a way way way slower pace, it would almost triple the time to get to the point with cripple or chill making the warrior on the way an easy pray.

Weapon change is the most common way to cancel out and most players know that, even newcomers, but when you have your weapon swap on cooldow, what you do? You could do seath weapon, but that is not binded to any key for default and is not promoted to be used as a skill cancel, so they would be stuck for the whole run, taking … absurd amount of damage they could do nothing about.

I dont see the problem with rush.

Unlike Elementalists with RtL, Warriors only use rush to escape, not to enter combat (because its bugged realy hard). Even if the CD is increased to 40 sec if rush dont hit anything, warriors would still have good mobility to get away of combat if they change to sword after and using bulls charge.

If ANet changed the CD of rush to be on par with RtL (i dont think that they will ever do that before fix the skill first, and even then i have my doubts), what is the next thing people will try to nerf? Sword 2? Bulls charge? Our trait that removes immobilize?

Warrior was made to be fast with some weapons and was made to be slow with others.

Ele can have good mobility for chassing with D/D – Burning Speed / RtL / Magnetic Grasp and then Magnetic Leap / Lightning Flash / Conjure Fiery Greatsword (with Gap closers with low CD).

Or for escaping with D/D – Burning Speed / RtL / Lightning Flash / Conjure Fiery Greatsword (with Gap closers with low CD).

The problem with RtL was the amount of healing a Elementalist had when used RtL to run away – switch to water and heal amost to full heal and come back again to the fight in a few seconds. That was the real problem with RtL and thats why they nerf their way out. They can do it too but not as often as before.

It’s kind of baffling that Anet has never replied about this subject. Mobility skills such as RTL, Rush and Swoop should be balanced equally so that they are not abused with the sole purpose of running from a fight.

Warrior is not a class which survival is based on mobility since they got plenty of others ways (highest hp, highest armor, healing signet, stances and etc.).