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Posted by: Equivocat.8246

Equivocat.8246

Clearly someone doesn’t want his “precious” to be nerfed.

I have yet to be hit by 9-10k backstab, so 15-20k numbers are out of thief reach imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9d4Og8KbEM
This is footage from a full glass thief. He has to use ALL his utilities to get might/boost to dmg to even get close to warrior numbers, leaving him with almost nothing if his combo fails. All this is from before thie Ferocity patch, and the highest numbers 16k are on some squishy or uplvl guys (not to mention they’re total nubcakes, but it’s just to show the numbers). Now, how many hits will it take to kill 12k hp 1800 armor thief?

Warrior however… “F1 , oww he dodged, switches to GS – run away 1500 range, 7sec later F1 magic button is ready again, Boom! 12k, 7-10sec, Boom! 15k”. Feel free to input random 2-3k auto atk hits in between.

edit:
Because some ppl posting below didn’t seem to have read my previous post, go read it. This is about WvW zerg situations where zerker thief pulling out 16k numbers will just evaporate from few hits.
If you read the part about 1v1, it’s not big problem to beat a warrior.
This is not crying post. This is pointing out at a certain problem with balance of warrior class, just like other people in this thread are trying to point out.

This is from a hotjoin, using Melandru runes and zerker amulet on necro. If it hits that hard not as full glass, and not in WvW, what could it do in WvW?

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Posted by: alchemyst.2165

alchemyst.2165

Clearly someone doesn’t want his “precious” to be nerfed.

I have yet to be hit by 9-10k backstab, so 15-20k numbers are out of thief reach imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9d4Og8KbEM
This is footage from a full glass thief. He has to use ALL his utilities to get might/boost to dmg to even get close to warrior numbers, leaving him with almost nothing if his combo fails. All this is from before thie Ferocity patch, and the highest numbers 16k are on some squishy or uplvl guys (not to mention they’re total nubcakes, but it’s just to show the numbers). Now, how many hits will it take to kill 12k hp 1800 armor thief?

Warrior however… “F1 , oww he dodged, switches to GS – run away 1500 range, 7sec later F1 magic button is ready again, Boom! 12k, 7-10sec, Boom! 15k”. Feel free to input random 2-3k auto atk hits in between.

edit:
Because some ppl posting below didn’t seem to have read my previous post, go read it. This is about WvW zerg situations where zerker thief pulling out 16k numbers will just evaporate from few hits.
If you read the part about 1v1, it’s not big problem to beat a warrior.
This is not crying post. This is pointing out at a certain problem with balance of warrior class, just like other people in this thread are trying to point out.

This is from a hotjoin, using Melandru runes and zerker amulet on necro. If it hits that hard not as full glass, and not in WvW, what could it do in WvW?

You said you were using zerker. Most likely the thief was using D/P revealed training 6/6/0/0/2 which means that you can practically 1 shot them. If you’re crying about 11k backstab when you’re zerker then that’s your fault for playing zerker…

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Posted by: Equivocat.8246

Equivocat.8246

You said you were using zerker. Most likely the thief was using D/P revealed training 6/6/0/0/2 which means that you can practically 1 shot them. If you’re crying about 11k backstab when you’re zerker then that’s your fault for playing zerker…

How can you one-shot a thief as a necro, and what thief will stay in the open long enough for that damage to go through? I feared him off a point and he disappeared, next thing I know, I was melted. I also said Melandru runes, which give some toughness, however minor. And yeah, I don’t normally play zerker, but was trying something out in hotjoin, and I just happened into the situation. Kinda funny how the thief’s allowed to go zerker and get away with it, and everyone else has to suck it up and NOT play that.

And on topic, having a war as well, it’s a weird game where everyone’s waiting out, or baiting out the Eviscerate. They know you have it, and you know they know that the pain’s coming. The distance on the heatseeking isn’t big, but it is way too reliable since missing it doesn’t drain adrenaline. That, plus the relatively low cooldown, sigil of intelligence, and added condi pressure from Celestial runes/longbow/Impale, and it gets pretty overwhelming. Only have so many dodges, so do you dodge, the Pin Down, Impale, or Evisc?

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Posted by: warriorjrd.8695

warriorjrd.8695

You said you were using zerker. Most likely the thief was using D/P revealed training 6/6/0/0/2 which means that you can practically 1 shot them. If you’re crying about 11k backstab when you’re zerker then that’s your fault for playing zerker…

How can you one-shot a thief as a necro, and what thief will stay in the open long enough for that damage to go through? I feared him off a point and he disappeared, next thing I know, I was melted. I also said Melandru runes, which give some toughness, however minor. And yeah, I don’t normally play zerker, but was trying something out in hotjoin, and I just happened into the situation. Kinda funny how the thief’s allowed to go zerker and get away with it, and everyone else has to suck it up and NOT play that.

And on topic, having a war as well, it’s a weird game where everyone’s waiting out, or baiting out the Eviscerate. They know you have it, and you know they know that the pain’s coming. The distance on the heatseeking isn’t big, but it is way too reliable since missing it doesn’t drain adrenaline. That, plus the relatively low cooldown, sigil of intelligence, and added condi pressure from Celestial runes/longbow/Impale, and it gets pretty overwhelming. Only have so many dodges, so do you dodge, the Pin Down, Impale, or Evisc?

“how can you one shot a theif with a necro?” If you’re playing zerker you should try using life blast sometime, maybe lich form. You are clearly unaware of how high a zerker necro can hit, so i’ll let you try those and figure it out.


It is not what you do, but how and why you do it that counts.

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

Blimey I never thought I’d see the day – warriors and thieves epic QQ battle of who is weaker. xD

This is how it works…

> Nerf a profession into the ground.
> Other professions start looking overpowered.
> Players on nerfed profession phalanx.
> Raging players divert their rage towards easier target.
> Unprepared profession attempts diverting rage towards previous target.
> Attempt fails because raging players already knows that there is almost nothing to pick at.
> Assaulted profession don’t know what do!!!!!?!??!?

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Posted by: Equivocat.8246

Equivocat.8246

How can you one-shot a thief as a necro, and what thief will stay in the open long enough for that damage to go through? I feared him off a point and he disappeared, next thing I know, I was melted. I also said Melandru runes, which give some toughness, however minor. And yeah, I don’t normally play zerker, but was trying something out in hotjoin, and I just happened into the situation. Kinda funny how the thief’s allowed to go zerker and get away with it, and everyone else has to suck it up and NOT play that.

And on topic, having a war as well, it’s a weird game where everyone’s waiting out, or baiting out the Eviscerate. They know you have it, and you know they know that the pain’s coming. The distance on the heatseeking isn’t big, but it is way too reliable since missing it doesn’t drain adrenaline. That, plus the relatively low cooldown, sigil of intelligence, and added condi pressure from Celestial runes/longbow/Impale, and it gets pretty overwhelming. Only have so many dodges, so do you dodge, the Pin Down, Impale, or Evisc?

“how can you one shot a theif with a necro?” If you’re playing zerker you should try using life blast sometime, maybe lich form. You are clearly unaware of how high a zerker necro can hit, so i’ll let you try those and figure it out.

Right, that’s exactly what I was testing out, by going zerker. The second part of my statement was that no thief will stay out in the open to take that kind of damage. Blowing a 3-minute cooldown on a thief that’s not even there? They’re obviously just going to wait it out, even they were there. Life Blast can hit hard, but there’s not a chance it hits for anywhere close to as much as I was hit for, in the same short span of time, and again, thief just decides to re-engage at a different time. Not to mention both are able to be dodged, since they’re out in the open, how’s about dodging that 11.5k Backstab (not counting sigil/other procs and steal)?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying nerf thief. I’m just saying that denying they have ridiculous burst potential is myopic. Yes, a lot of professions have that burst/high damage potential, but thief is burst potential is tied to when they choose to engage, in relative safety.

(edited by Equivocat.8246)

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Posted by: alchemyst.2165

alchemyst.2165

How can you one-shot a thief as a necro, and what thief will stay in the open long enough for that damage to go through? I feared him off a point and he disappeared, next thing I know, I was melted. I also said Melandru runes, which give some toughness, however minor. And yeah, I don’t normally play zerker, but was trying something out in hotjoin, and I just happened into the situation. Kinda funny how the thief’s allowed to go zerker and get away with it, and everyone else has to suck it up and NOT play that.

And on topic, having a war as well, it’s a weird game where everyone’s waiting out, or baiting out the Eviscerate. They know you have it, and you know they know that the pain’s coming. The distance on the heatseeking isn’t big, but it is way too reliable since missing it doesn’t drain adrenaline. That, plus the relatively low cooldown, sigil of intelligence, and added condi pressure from Celestial runes/longbow/Impale, and it gets pretty overwhelming. Only have so many dodges, so do you dodge, the Pin Down, Impale, or Evisc?

“how can you one shot a theif with a necro?” If you’re playing zerker you should try using life blast sometime, maybe lich form. You are clearly unaware of how high a zerker necro can hit, so i’ll let you try those and figure it out.

Right, that’s exactly what I was testing out, by going zerker. The second part of my statement was that no thief will stay out in the open to take that kind of damage. Blowing a 3-minute cooldown on a thief that’s not even there? They’re obviously just going to wait it out, even they were there. Life Blast can hit hard, but there’s not a chance it hits for anywhere close to as much as I was hit for, in the same short span of time, and again, thief just decides to re-engage at a different time. Not to mention both are able to be dodged, since they’re out in the open, how’s about dodging that 11.5k Backstab (not counting sigil/other procs and steal)?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying nerf thief. I’m just saying that denying they have ridiculous burst potential is myopic. Yes, a lot of professions have that burst/high damage potential, but thief is burst potential is tied to when they choose to engage, in relative safety.

I made a necro a while ago and went d/d dps build. I was One-two shotting thieves in just a few seconds. I was doing it to everyone actually, but thieves were actually the EASIEST to kill.

Anyways, sorry I just had to reply. Let’s get back on topic to eviscerate.

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Posted by: Kuju.2153

Kuju.2153

The problem of Eviscerate is the Sigil of Intelligence.

I would disagree with this. Ask yourself how much of an issue this sigil is on other classes/builds? Then understand a warrior can just go six points (6/0/4/0/4 vs 4/0/4/0/6) into Strength for Burst Precision to negate the need for the sigil. I still maintain the problem is adrenaline being an afterthought in how it is managed; whether that be how quickly it is gained, lack of punishment when the player makes a mistake, and/or facing capable counterplay from the opponent.

(edited by Kuju.2153)

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Posted by: Simon.3794

Simon.3794

I still maintain the problem is adrenaline being an afterthought in how it is managed; whether that be how quickly it is gained, lack of punishment when the player makes a mistake, and/or facing capable counterplay from the opponent.

clearly, you don’t play a warrior.

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Posted by: Kuju.2153

Kuju.2153

I still maintain the problem is adrenaline being an afterthought in how it is managed; whether that be how quickly it is gained, lack of punishment when the player makes a mistake, and/or facing capable counterplay from the opponent.

clearly, you don’t play a warrior.

You mean when you are dodged and have no punishment on adrenaline at all, or the traits/utilities in the meta builds that gain adrenaline back as if it were not even necessary as a resource, or cleasing ire proccing by just shooting LB burst randomly not even hitting anybody? Clearly, what does playing a warrior have to do with anything when it becomes that brain dead?

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Posted by: Simon.3794

Simon.3794

I still maintain the problem is adrenaline being an afterthought in how it is managed; whether that be how quickly it is gained, lack of punishment when the player makes a mistake, and/or facing capable counterplay from the opponent.

[/quote]

Let me break it down for you.
Warrior, in order to be anything viable, needs to have Cleansing ire and Burst mastery, in order to maintain a decent adrenaline level.
Without these two traits, you will fall short in adrenaline quickly and not being able to do anything and die easily. except ofc you can use berserker stance, but then you will fall short again shortly.

I’m not sure why you think there’s no punishment for missing Burst skill, 1st of all,
If you miss a burst skill, it goes on full CD, if this is not a punishment then idk what it is.

2nd of all, cleansing ire, the only condition removal warrior use right now (berserker stance is not condition removing, it prevents condition) If you miss your easily dodge able burst skill, then you also miss your condition clear, that’s why warriors are also forced to use longbow, because all other burst skills can be avoided so easily.

3rd of all, like i said above, everything other then LB f1 are telegraphic and can be avoided easily, i’m all for punishment, if they actually improve skills cast time, animation and kittened self rooting skill like kill shot.

there’s also something interesting, like why thieves skills dont go on CD if missed on top of consuming resource (exactly opposite of burst skill) and why engis have close to no punishment for wrong kit swapping.

(edited by Simon.3794)

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Posted by: Kuju.2153

Kuju.2153

Saying LB Combustive Shot should do what it does because of telegraphs of other skills is just poetic, but that’s a good one. You should be able to just Evis the air, arcing slice, and earthshaker too and just be done with it.

Having your burst negated by block, dodge, blind, and going on a short cooldown or weapon swapping to the other burst without losing adrenaline isn’t punishment at all. Not losing any adrenaline for counterplay is just silly. Get better and land the kitten burst. Somebody countered what you were trying to do? OK, mow you need the adrenaline back. Learn to land skills if you want the payoff – this goes for all classes.

I don’t remember saying anything about thief spamming 1 into the air to land a backstab in stealth, and only being revealed upon doing damage being alright. Watching two thieves duel, and each one going into stealth with MH Dagger spamming 1 trying to hit each other isn’t an argument for why Warrior should keep it’s own hand holding skills. Engineer punishment for kit swapping; I haven’t heard that one, but would love to hear the argument explained. Engineer has it’s own cheese (turrets, balthazar rune synergy just to get started), and I’m not sure kits are one them, but would like to hear why since it’s been brought up.

I didn’t even mention how Eviscerate will auto-face and attempt to hit somebody no matter which what the Warrior is facing, but sure lets keep all that. Shoot LB into the ground randomly for Ire, because of telegraphs. Do not lose adrenaline upon counterplay, and I can randomly tab target an enemy and stick my camera into the ground and hit F1 and as long as they meet the range requirements I can hit them.

The points made in this thread against such a skill is try to move this game to more skill and counterplay, not hold it back for a bunch of reasons that are usually related to the problem and not the solution.

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Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

Kinda funny how the thief’s allowed to go zerker and get away with it, and everyone else has to suck it up and NOT play that.

And on topic, having a war as well, it’s a weird game where everyone’s waiting out, or baiting out the Eviscerate. They know you have it, and you know they know that the pain’s coming. The distance on the heatseeking isn’t big, but it is way too reliable since missing it doesn’t drain adrenaline. That, plus the relatively low cooldown, sigil of intelligence, and added condi pressure from Celestial runes/longbow/Impale, and it gets pretty overwhelming. Only have so many dodges, so do you dodge, the Pin Down, Impale, or Evisc?

Well, it is a fact that thieves are driving away other zerkers from the game. This game is soon 2 years old and it seems the majority of the players and developers still think this is okay (“it is your own fault if backstab hits you xxx k dmg”). We would see much more varied meta and more hybrid builds if there would be less extreme burst combined with the ability the reset the fight (this combination should not exist in the game, because it drives so many players to run a bunker build).

But back to the topic of eviscerate:

I fully agree with the above poster. Arguments like “You can dodge it”, are not reasonable, when the warrior burst skills all have under 10 second cooldown. The warrior has more attempts to land his burst than the opponent has attempts to dodge. I think the only way to make warrior balanced, especially for game modes like WvWvW, is to increase cooldown of burst skills. In WvWvW the big problem skill is hammer burst, earthshaker, which been dominating the meta since the beginning from Autumn 2012. 2 s area stun, 600 leap with under 10 s cooldown = madness!! Many people have quit WvWvW because it is stale, meta has been the same. I know the straw men arguments: you can dodge, use stability or a stun break etc.

The alternative way to balance the warrior would be nerfing it’s damage or sustain to the ground, but I don’t want that to happen. Surely some skills require small tweaks and the warrior mobility should be seriously looked upon, but I think most of the burst skills could be kept as they are, only if burst recharge time would be considerably longer (50-100% more). This change would decrease the effectiveness of cleansing ire, which is at the moment the best 4 point trait in the game, far better trait than most grandmaster traits.

So in other words: I am very well aware how powerful spec axe/sword + longbow is. I am not suggesting to change eviscerate skill, but increase the cooldown all of all warrior burst skills.

Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]

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Posted by: alchemyst.2165

alchemyst.2165

I have to agree, increasing the cooldown of burst skills will provide more opportunity for counterplay.

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Posted by: Simon.3794

Simon.3794

Saying LB Combustive Shot should do what it does because of telegraphs of other skills is just poetic, but that’s a good one. You should be able to just Evis the air, arcing slice, and earthshaker too and just be done with it.

Having your burst negated by block, dodge, blind, and going on a short cooldown or weapon swapping to the other burst without losing adrenaline isn’t punishment at all. Not losing any adrenaline for counterplay is just silly. Get better and land the kitten burst. Somebody countered what you were trying to do? OK, mow you need the adrenaline back. Learn to land skills if you want the payoff – this goes for all classes.

I don’t remember saying anything about thief spamming 1 into the air to land a backstab in stealth, and only being revealed upon doing damage being alright. Watching two thieves duel, and each one going into stealth with MH Dagger spamming 1 trying to hit each other isn’t an argument for why Warrior should keep it’s own hand holding skills. Engineer punishment for kit swapping; I haven’t heard that one, but would love to hear the argument explained. Engineer has it’s own cheese (turrets, balthazar rune synergy just to get started), and I’m not sure kits are one them, but would like to hear why since it’s been brought up.

I didn’t even mention how Eviscerate will auto-face and attempt to hit somebody no matter which what the Warrior is facing, but sure lets keep all that. Shoot LB into the ground randomly for Ire, because of telegraphs. Do not lose adrenaline upon counterplay, and I can randomly tab target an enemy and stick my camera into the ground and hit F1 and as long as they meet the range requirements I can hit them.

The points made in this thread against such a skill is try to move this game to more skill and counterplay, not hold it back for a bunch of reasons that are usually related to the problem and not the solution.

You don’t really get it, don’t you, saying why warrior should lost adrenaline for missing burst skill when it already goes on full CD, is just badly understanding of this game, why thieves skill won’t have CD on top of resource usage? why engis are so tolerated for miss swapping, why theres so little close to non punishment for miss kit swapping.
They are all saying the same thing. burst skill goes on full CD is THE punishment designed for them, just like how wasting resource is THE punishment designed for thieves skills.

If you really think warriors get adrenaline like breathing, you should go play some 5v5 against apex, op by children or any other good team, when things happening so fast and realize how little adrenaline you will have even with zerker stance, burst mastery and cleansing ire. and realize why these three things are a must for all top tier matches. this game should not be balanced around noobs or low-avg players.

I’m all for skill and counter play, the thing is that warrior has the most counter able skills compare to everyone else.

(edited by Simon.3794)

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

You don’t really get it, don’t you, saying why warrior should lost adrenaline for missing burst skill when it already goes on full CD, is just badly understanding of this game, why thieves skill won’t have CD on top of resource usage? why engis are so tolerated for miss swapping, why theres so little close to non punishment for miss kit swapping.
They are all saying the same thing. burst skill goes on full CD is THE punishment designed for them, just like how wasting resource is THE punishment designed for thieves skills.

If you really think warriors get adrenaline like breathing, you should go play some 5v5 against apex, op by children or any other good team, when things happening so fast and realize how little adrenaline you will have even with zerker stance, burst mastery and cleansing ire. and realize why these three things are a must for all top tier matches. this game should not be balanced around noobs or low-avg players.

I’m all for skill and counter play, the thing is that warrior has the most counter able skills compare to everyone else.

How should I explain this…. Pretend you are on your profession and chain 3-4 skills together. Now put everything on cooldown on both weaponsets because you didn’t wait a few seconds between each attack.

That’s why there are no cooldowns on thief skills.

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Posted by: xbutcherx.3861

xbutcherx.3861

You don’t really get it, don’t you, saying why warrior should lost adrenaline for missing burst skill when it already goes on full CD, is just badly understanding of this game, why thieves skill won’t have CD on top of resource usage? why engis are so tolerated for miss swapping, why theres so little close to non punishment for miss kit swapping.
They are all saying the same thing. burst skill goes on full CD is THE punishment designed for them, just like how wasting resource is THE punishment designed for thieves skills.

If you really think warriors get adrenaline like breathing, you should go play some 5v5 against apex, op by children or any other good team, when things happening so fast and realize how little adrenaline you will have even with zerker stance, burst mastery and cleansing ire. and realize why these three things are a must for all top tier matches. this game should not be balanced around noobs or low-avg players.

I’m all for skill and counter play, the thing is that warrior has the most counter able skills compare to everyone else.

How should I explain this…. Pretend you are on your profession and chain 3-4 skills together. Now put everything on cooldown on both weaponsets because you didn’t wait a few seconds between each attack.

That’s why there are no cooldowns on thief skills.

How should I explain this… stop posting and go practice on your thief, watch some videos, learn your skills. L2P

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Posted by: Kuju.2153

Kuju.2153

Saying LB Combustive Shot should do what it does because of telegraphs of other skills is just poetic, but that’s a good one. You should be able to just Evis the air, arcing slice, and earthshaker too and just be done with it.

Having your burst negated by block, dodge, blind, and going on a short cooldown or weapon swapping to the other burst without losing adrenaline isn’t punishment at all. Not losing any adrenaline for counterplay is just silly. Get better and land the kitten burst. Somebody countered what you were trying to do? OK, mow you need the adrenaline back. Learn to land skills if you want the payoff – this goes for all classes.

I don’t remember saying anything about thief spamming 1 into the air to land a backstab in stealth, and only being revealed upon doing damage being alright. Watching two thieves duel, and each one going into stealth with MH Dagger spamming 1 trying to hit each other isn’t an argument for why Warrior should keep it’s own hand holding skills. Engineer punishment for kit swapping; I haven’t heard that one, but would love to hear the argument explained. Engineer has it’s own cheese (turrets, balthazar rune synergy just to get started), and I’m not sure kits are one them, but would like to hear why since it’s been brought up.

I didn’t even mention how Eviscerate will auto-face and attempt to hit somebody no matter which what the Warrior is facing, but sure lets keep all that. Shoot LB into the ground randomly for Ire, because of telegraphs. Do not lose adrenaline upon counterplay, and I can randomly tab target an enemy and stick my camera into the ground and hit F1 and as long as they meet the range requirements I can hit them.

The points made in this thread against such a skill is try to move this game to more skill and counterplay, not hold it back for a bunch of reasons that are usually related to the problem and not the solution.

You don’t really get it, don’t you, saying why warrior should lost adrenaline for missing burst skill when it already goes on full CD, is just badly understanding of this game, why thieves skill won’t have CD on top of resource usage? why engis are so tolerated for miss swapping, why theres so little close to non punishment for miss kit swapping.
They are all saying the same thing. burst skill goes on full CD is THE punishment designed for them, just like how wasting resource is THE punishment designed for thieves skills.

If you really think warriors get adrenaline like breathing, you should go play some 5v5 against apex, op by children or any other good team, when things happening so fast and realize how little adrenaline you will have even with zerker stance, burst mastery and cleansing ire. and realize why these three things are a must for all top tier matches. this game should not be balanced around noobs or low-avg players.

I’m all for skill and counter play, the thing is that warrior has the most counter able skills compare to everyone else.

Warrior has the most counter able skills based on what? What does mis-swapping for an Engi mean? They should have cooldowns when they swap, or if they mistakenly swap to a kit they didn’t mean to they should be punished – if so how would that be determined? It just looks like you are blurting something out for the sake of doing jus that here… say otherwise. Again, Thief has it’s own issues with resources, and I don’t know why you need to take one problem, and justify it through another.

I’ll say it one last time – not losing ANY adrenaline through and keeping the FULL potential of cleansing ire AND the FULL potential of a burst on a weapon swap (almost always less than 5 seconds) is not a punishment. The amount of sustained pressure a warrior can put on a class, and the amount of skills that MUST be dodged on such short intervals is not OK. You can continue to try and justify the problem with other problems if you would really like to do so.

Lastly, when have you played against top level teams to compare your comment about them? I know I have not do so. So, what exactly is your experience there? How did it really go? I don’t care if you watched a video, because that doesn’t truly allow one to feel the flow of a battle to comment. Hint: I don’t see you on the leaderboard (no, I do not think leaderboards are a measure of skill, but a certain ranking would be needed to play these teams.. or competing in the weekly cups, etc.) where you would be playing such teams, but that doesn’t mean anything as you could have decayed down. Though, playing one game would change that.

(edited by Kuju.2153)

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Posted by: Kuju.2153

Kuju.2153

I’ll just repeat one more thing for clarity since it won’t let me edit my post. NOTHING changes for the warrior if the burst is landed successfully. How many decent warriors do you see missing a lot of their burst? For me it’s not that many. Pressuring the player into dodges, flanking them, CCing them through immob, daze, stun, utilizing your teamates, playing Asura (zing!), etc. all can be skill sets that a warrior can learn to play better and have higher return on value on burst. You want the payoff then earn it, but you don’t deserve to just keep the full benefit of traits like Berserks’s Power, Adrenaline Health, Cleansing Ire, etc., and/or swap to your other weapon and fire off that burst.

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Posted by: Evilek.5690

Evilek.5690

Clearly someone doesn’t want his “precious” to be nerfed.

I have yet to be hit by 9-10k backstab, so 15-20k numbers are out of thief reach imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9d4Og8KbEM
This is footage from a full glass thief. He has to use ALL his utilities to get might/boost to dmg to even get close to warrior numbers, leaving him with almost nothing if his combo fails. All this is from before thie Ferocity patch, and the highest numbers 16k are on some squishy or uplvl guys (not to mention they’re total nubcakes, but it’s just to show the numbers). Now, how many hits will it take to kill 12k hp 1800 armor thief?

Warrior however… “F1 , oww he dodged, switches to GS – run away 1500 range, 7sec later F1 magic button is ready again, Boom! 12k, 7-10sec, Boom! 15k”. Feel free to input random 2-3k auto atk hits in between.

edit:
Because some ppl posting below didn’t seem to have read my previous post, go read it. This is about WvW zerg situations where zerker thief pulling out 16k numbers will just evaporate from few hits.
If you read the part about 1v1, it’s not big problem to beat a warrior.
This is not crying post. This is pointing out at a certain problem with balance of warrior class, just like other people in this thread are trying to point out.

This is from a hotjoin, using Melandru runes and zerker amulet on necro. If it hits that hard not as full glass, and not in WvW, what could it do in WvW?

Ehm ehm. Full DMG traits 3013 power (20x might) All spell on CD and 9k BS vs Warrior eviscerate without power traits and with power traits 2668 power( 5x might) 9.6k, 90% CD ready

Attachments:

Evilek lvl 80 Charr Thief Why no ?
Fredy Brimstone lvl 80 Mighty Warrior
Oupí lvl 80 Immortal Guardian

(edited by Evilek.5690)

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Posted by: Equivocat.8246

Equivocat.8246

Ehm ehm. Full DMG traits 3013 power (20x might) All spell on CD and 9k BS vs Warrior eviscerate without power traits and with power traits 2668 power( 5x might) 9.6k, 90% CD ready

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. Nowhere did I deny that Eviscerate hits for a lot of damage, only saying that Backstab has the potential to hit for the same numbers, and that denying it is narrow-minded.

From what you’re showing, it’s natural that the warrior would have no cooldowns (which are defensive in nature) spent, since you generated all your adrenaline by slowly chopping away at a target dummy, and that you blew all your cooldowns as thief to burst the target in one instant. Translate that to a game situation: the warrior would be generating adrenaline faster from Berserker Stance and Cleansing Ire (which you’re missing!) by trading hits with their target, and the situation is largely unchanged for the thief – opening on their target from stealth and blowing cooldowns to burst (but missed venom!)/lockdown.

I still maintain that the problem is Eviscerate’s consistency, not costing adrenaline and/or the short cooldown on a miss. The build it belongs to (Celestial Axe/Sword+LB) adds to the issue, but looking at the ability in isolation, it would be that. Neither has to be nerfed, but both sides can’t deny how hard they can hit.

(edited by Equivocat.8246)

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Posted by: Evilek.5690

Evilek.5690

Ehm ehm. Full DMG traits 3013 power (20x might) All spell on CD and 9k BS vs Warrior eviscerate without power traits and with power traits 2668 power( 5x might) 9.6k, 90% CD ready

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. Nowhere did I deny that Eviscerate hits for a lot of damage, only saying that Backstab has the potential to hit for the same numbers, and that denying it is narrow-minded.

From what you’re showing, it’s natural that the warrior would have no cooldowns (which are defensive in nature) spent, since you generated all your adrenaline by slowly chopping away at a target dummy, and that you blew all your cooldowns as thief to burst the target in one instant. Translate that to a game situation: the warrior would be generating adrenaline faster from Berserker Stance and Cleansing Ire (which you’re missing!) by trading hits with their target, and the situation is largely unchanged for the thief – opening on their target from stealth and blowing cooldowns to burst (but missed venom!)/lockdown.

I still maintain that the problem is Eviscerate’s consistency, not costing adrenaline and/or the short cooldown on a miss. The build it belongs to (Celestial Axe/Sword+LB) adds to the issue, but looking at the ability in isolation, it would be that. Neither has to be nerfed, but both sides can’t deny how hard they can hit.

Problem is.

Thief must use all offensive abilities(thief without defensive skills) on CD to hit weakest than warrior and must hit target from behind.

And Warrior ? Click F1 on better dmg every 7 sec.

Evilek lvl 80 Charr Thief Why no ?
Fredy Brimstone lvl 80 Mighty Warrior
Oupí lvl 80 Immortal Guardian

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Posted by: Curunen.8729

Curunen.8729

I’m in agreement with increasing the burst cooldown to at least 10 seconds, or some higher number.

The rest of it is fine to leave alone.

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Posted by: Shinjo.6092

Shinjo.6092

Why do people think it’s fair to compare Backstab with Eviscerate? Backstab has a stealth requirement and a positional requirement (mêlée AND behind), whereas a warrior can literally strap on a blindfold, pull down his pants, and push F1 with his kitten to get Eviscerate off…

…and it still does more damage than Backstab.

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Posted by: xbutcherx.3861

xbutcherx.3861

Clearly someone doesn’t want his “precious” to be nerfed.

I have yet to be hit by 9-10k backstab, so 15-20k numbers are out of thief reach imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9d4Og8KbEM
This is footage from a full glass thief. He has to use ALL his utilities to get might/boost to dmg to even get close to warrior numbers, leaving him with almost nothing if his combo fails. All this is from before thie Ferocity patch, and the highest numbers 16k are on some squishy or uplvl guys (not to mention they’re total nubcakes, but it’s just to show the numbers). Now, how many hits will it take to kill 12k hp 1800 armor thief?

Warrior however… “F1 , oww he dodged, switches to GS – run away 1500 range, 7sec later F1 magic button is ready again, Boom! 12k, 7-10sec, Boom! 15k”. Feel free to input random 2-3k auto atk hits in between.

edit:
Because some ppl posting below didn’t seem to have read my previous post, go read it. This is about WvW zerg situations where zerker thief pulling out 16k numbers will just evaporate from few hits.
If you read the part about 1v1, it’s not big problem to beat a warrior.
This is not crying post. This is pointing out at a certain problem with balance of warrior class, just like other people in this thread are trying to point out.

This is from a hotjoin, using Melandru runes and zerker amulet on necro. If it hits that hard not as full glass, and not in WvW, what could it do in WvW?

Ehm ehm. Full DMG traits 3013 power (20x might) All spell on CD and 9k BS vs Warrior eviscerate without power traits and with power traits 2668 power( 5x might) 9.6k, 90% CD ready

Love the first picture, if you see there was 2 Backstabs withing 6 secs(10:40 and 10:46) (excluding the 2x C&D) , 8.9k and 9k, you know you can only land 1 evicerate in that same time with time to spare, and I’m not saying is easy on a moving target but it can be done. On the other hand you can see the whole telegraph warrior burst skill and you can easily dodge.

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Posted by: xbutcherx.3861

xbutcherx.3861

Why do people think it’s fair to compare Backstab with Eviscerate? Backstab has a stealth requirement and a positional requirement (mêlée AND behind), whereas a warrior can literally strap on a blindfold, pull down his pants, and push F1 with his kitten to get Eviscerate off…

…and it still does more damage than Backstab.

Please Please, I encourage you to play a warrior more than just 2 hours, I was playing sPvP last night and the amount of noobs playing warrior was amazing and you know what? they were terrible, but, but.. but it should’t be because warrior is nood friendly and they should be really good right?

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Posted by: dominik.9721

dominik.9721

Backstab should reveal on miss/block/invul, true. Same as warrior bursts should consume adrenaline when miss/block/invul (with an additional nerf to Cleansing Ire so they are not entirely immune to conditions).

That’s the reason you shouldn’t give balance advices.
That would just make the warrior even stronger.
Finally you don’t need Longbow for cleaning irse or what is this?
However, warrior will thank you – please consume adrenalin,allthough they don’t hit their target. Condition remove for free <3

Grimkram [sS]

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Posted by: Atoss.1056

Atoss.1056

Love the first picture, if you see there was 2 Backstabs withing 6 secs(10:40 and 10:46) (excluding the 2x C&D) , 8.9k and 9k, you know you can only land 1 evicerate in that same time with time to spare, and I’m not saying is easy on a moving target but it can be done. On the other hand you can see the whole telegraph warrior burst skill and you can easily dodge.

First of all: timer in GW2 doesn’t show seconds, it’s minutes.
Second: dummy’s don’t dodge/hit back.

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Posted by: xbutcherx.3861

xbutcherx.3861

Love the first picture, if you see there was 2 Backstabs withing 6 secs(10:40 and 10:46) (excluding the 2x C&D) , 8.9k and 9k, you know you can only land 1 evicerate in that same time with time to spare, and I’m not saying is easy on a moving target but it can be done. On the other hand you can see the whole telegraph warrior burst skill and you can easily dodge.

First of all: timer in GW2 doesn’t show seconds, it’s minutes.
Second: dummy’s don’t dodge/hit back.

Yeah maybe the time you are right but still 6 seconds is enough to land 2 BS, and you can see when a warrior is about to hit you with a Burst, now can you see a thief backstabing you?

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Posted by: Evilek.5690

Evilek.5690

Love the first picture, if you see there was 2 Backstabs withing 6 secs(10:40 and 10:46) (excluding the 2x C&D) , 8.9k and 9k, you know you can only land 1 evicerate in that same time with time to spare, and I’m not saying is easy on a moving target but it can be done. On the other hand you can see the whole telegraph warrior burst skill and you can easily dodge.

First of all: timer in GW2 doesn’t show seconds, it’s minutes.
Second: dummy’s don’t dodge/hit back.

Yeah maybe the time you are right but still 6 seconds is enough to land 2 BS, and you can see when a warrior is about to hit you with a Burst, now can you see a thief backstabing you?

2x BS with 4 sec reveal debuff ? ofc
BTW you don’t see CaD ? You don’t see black powder + HS ?

Evilek lvl 80 Charr Thief Why no ?
Fredy Brimstone lvl 80 Mighty Warrior
Oupí lvl 80 Immortal Guardian

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Posted by: alchemyst.2165

alchemyst.2165

Lol I love how all the warriors are trying to draw the attention off their class by talking about thieves. I just love it.

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Posted by: xbutcherx.3861

xbutcherx.3861

Lol I love how all the warriors are trying to draw the attention off their class by talking about thieves. I just love it.

Just love how you trying to get warrior nerf but the sad part that we already been nerfed more than once, so I want to see the perma blind and perma evade nerfed to the ground and while at it please add 2 more seconds to reveal.

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Posted by: Curunen.8729

Curunen.8729

Whether or not you can see the burst coming is somewhat irrelevant.

At this point in time, many players if they know their in a fight with a stealth/direct damage burst thief, have the experience and knowledge to anticipate what such a thief is going to do – and in turn be ready to counter what they do, stealth or no stealth. Yes sometimes you will be caught out, usually if not aware there’s a thief in the area, but once in combat, it becomes a game of prediction. This of course does not include p/d perplexity parasites or perma evade spammers.

Compare that to warrior burst – which you can always see coming – however there’s a completely different combat dynamic. It becomes less of a game of predicting when the burst will come and countering it (as it is for thief), and more of a game of “I only have a certain time limit until the warriors offensive cooldowns will outpace my defensive cooldowns and dodging”, meaning I’ll have to fade out for a breather and reengage. Warriors are able to maintain continuous pressure and damage across all their attacks while burst skills refresh. There is a completely different kind of pressure when fighting a warrior compared to fighting a thief and so their burst skills cannot be directly compared. At least you can melt a thief with one or two good counter bursts.

On the flip side you can more easily use the environment to your advantage when fighting a warrior (for example to LoS a burst).

I’m saying this from a neutral point of view as a mesmer.

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Posted by: alchemyst.2165

alchemyst.2165

Lol I love how all the warriors are trying to draw the attention off their class by talking about thieves. I just love it.

Just love how you trying to get warrior nerf but the sad part that we already been nerfed more than once, so I want to see the perma blind and perma evade nerfed to the ground and while at it please add 2 more seconds to reveal.

Thieves have been getting constant nerfs, we haven’t had a good buff in ages. Warriors are still top of the food chain. This thread is eviscerate, stop trying to change the topic to thieves. If you really want to, make a nerf thieves thread. But this is NOT the place to be talking about thief nerfs. We’re talking about eviscerate here. Stop trying to stray away from warriors and talk about thieves. I’m assuming you came here to defend the warrior class, not to hate on another class.

Please, stay on topic everyone.

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Posted by: nearlight.3064

nearlight.3064

I guess the only good thing you can learn from this thread is that whoever SCREAMS the loudest, gets heard the most, so therefore they are right. GG Warriors.

Necromancer Main
Taking a break from GW2 to play various
Nintendo games..

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Posted by: Zacchary.6183

Zacchary.6183

How should I explain this… stop posting and go practice on your thief, watch some videos, learn your skills. L2P

Dude, you can’t even play warrior well enough. You proved it as much in this thread. There is no point in you posting in this thread because people see you trying to point fingers. “But what about thiefs being OP?!” Just lol

Lol I love how all the warriors are trying to draw the attention off their class by talking about thieves. I just love it.

Just love how you trying to get warrior nerf but the sad part that we already been nerfed more than once, so I want to see the perma blind and perma evade nerfed to the ground and while at it please add 2 more seconds to reveal.

Poor warriors. Try getting nerfed every patch for over a year straight.

(edited by Zacchary.6183)

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Posted by: Mayama.1854

Mayama.1854

Every time I 1v1 a warrior on my engi I feel insulted by how much a warrior can archive with so little effort.

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Posted by: Grimreaper.5370

Grimreaper.5370

Inb4 someone claims it’s balanced because of the “telegraphed animation.” I’m just a bad player who should’ve exploited its weakness to dodging!

When a warrior up close, the only “telegraphed animation” you’re going to see from a 12k eviscerate is your character going instantly into down state.

No, this particular event only happens if you’re bad at paying attention, lol.

(edited by Grimreaper.5370)

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Posted by: Grimreaper.5370

Grimreaper.5370

Axe is fine IMO, if you’re getting hit for 12k with an eviscerate well then you’re paying the price for being glass.

What DOES need some re-work though is hammer stun chains, and killshot. Have you seen multiple glass warriors using killshot together? Hory sheet that stuff is bananas

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Posted by: leman.7682

leman.7682

I like to think Jon ‘5 signets’ Peters giggles each time someone gets this:

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Leman

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Posted by: Mayama.1854

Mayama.1854

Axe is fine IMO, if you’re getting hit for 12k with an eviscerate well then you’re paying the price for being glass.

What DOES need some re-work though is hammer stun chains, and killshot. Have you seen multiple glass warriors using killshot together? Hory sheet that stuff is bananas

I got hit for 10k with 2900 armor. So glass equals not maxing to 3500 armor…

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Posted by: TheBandicoot.5294

TheBandicoot.5294

Axe is fine IMO, if you’re getting hit for 12k with an eviscerate well then you’re paying the price for being glass.

What DOES need some re-work though is hammer stun chains, and killshot. Have you seen multiple glass warriors using killshot together? Hory sheet that stuff is bananas

Exactly. If only the warrior had to pay the same price, huh? But no, they run around with huge amounts of HP and way more armor than any other “glass” spec. Seems legit.

Eviscerate needs to be toned down, tbh its the overall damage which is too much for a warrior´s tankyness and sustain. Or, what i also already said, just make warriors slow/reduce their mobility. Then they can dish out any damage they want in melee range, but everyone has a fair chance to keep them at range. Currently Eviscerate lets the warrior fly about 500 to 600 units into face of their target although any mobility skill except Ride The Lighnting scales proportional with movement speed, thus Eviscerate should move 399 units max, and that is out of combat. Without someone in target Eviscerate behaves like it should for having 300 units range. Try it out… was wondering about that for a long time. It reaches further when in combat with target and swiftness than out of combat with no target but with swiftness.

(edited by TheBandicoot.5294)

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Posted by: Mayama.1854

Mayama.1854

Eviscerate needs to be toned down, tbh its the overall damage which is too much for a warrior´s tankyness and sustain. Or, what i also already said, just make warriors slow/reduce their mobility.

Thats what really bothers me in GW2, its the only mmorpg where kiting classes/builds cant kite. We dont need frostmage WoW level of dominating kiting but something is wrong if a warrior can sit 90% of the time on my face even if I slot every kiting skill on a ele, engi or ranger

(edited by Mayama.1854)

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Posted by: silentnight warrior.2714

silentnight warrior.2714

Eviscerate needs to be toned down, tbh its the overall damage which is too much for a warrior´s tankyness and sustain. Or, what i also already said, just make warriors slow/reduce their mobility.

Thats what really bothers me in GW2, its the only mmorpg where kiting classes/builds cant kite. We dont need frostmage WoW level of dominating kiting but something is wrong if a warrior can sit 90% of the time on my face even if I slot every kiting skill on a mage, engi or ranger

What is wrong = Melandru runes and food. Fix them and problem solved

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Posted by: TheBandicoot.5294

TheBandicoot.5294

Silentnight, that still doesnt fix the underlying problem. That just makes the warrior susceptible to the condition spammers out there – and the current Meta is already very shifted towards condition tanks. To be honest the condition Meta is out of hand completly. I don´t care for the math which shows a soldier charracter doing slightly more damage than the very same character geared in dire. Condition tanks do more damage than their power-specced counterparts since, you know, condition damage ignores armor. Anyone ignoring this fact is just a blindfolded kitten (self censored here for security… insert favorite word) But that is a whole different story which needs to be adressed. Anyways, removing those runes and food would also ruin a lot of other anti condi specced builds.

No, the change must be done within the warrior class itself. I have stated it multiple times now but nobody seems to ever read or at least answer it. Mobility, damage, sustain – all in one its too much, remove one of them and we´re fine. Remove one part of that equation and the warrior is perfectly balanced. A thief for example has mobility and damage, but lacks sustain.

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Posted by: Olba.5376

Olba.5376

Eviscerate needs to be toned down, tbh its the overall damage which is too much for a warrior´s tankyness and sustain. Or, what i also already said, just make warriors slow/reduce their mobility.

Thats what really bothers me in GW2, its the only mmorpg where kiting classes/builds cant kite. We dont need frostmage WoW level of dominating kiting but something is wrong if a warrior can sit 90% of the time on my face even if I slot every kiting skill on a mage, engi or ranger

What is wrong = Melandru runes and food. Fix them and problem solved

Only if you also “fix” Runes of Krait and +condi duration% food.

And for the record, Runes of Melandru aren’t that much better than Rune of Hoelbrak. Heck, there’s Rune of Antitoxin, which is a condi damage version of Rune of Melandru.

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Posted by: style.6173

style.6173

You guys need to stay focused here.

Eviscerate is definitely overpowered right now. It is too easy to land and contributes to the whole “warriors are easy mode” mentality.

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Posted by: silentnight warrior.2714

silentnight warrior.2714

Eviscerate needs to be toned down, tbh its the overall damage which is too much for a warrior´s tankyness and sustain. Or, what i also already said, just make warriors slow/reduce their mobility.

Thats what really bothers me in GW2, its the only mmorpg where kiting classes/builds cant kite. We dont need frostmage WoW level of dominating kiting but something is wrong if a warrior can sit 90% of the time on my face even if I slot every kiting skill on a mage, engi or ranger

What is wrong = Melandru runes and food. Fix them and problem solved

Only if you also “fix” Runes of Krait and +condi duration% food.

And for the record, Runes of Melandru aren’t that much better than Rune of Hoelbrak. Heck, there’s Rune of Antitoxin, which is a condi damage version of Rune of Melandru.

Those need fix too.

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Posted by: silentnight warrior.2714

silentnight warrior.2714

Silentnight, that still doesnt fix the underlying problem. That just makes the warrior susceptible to the condition spammers out there – and the current Meta is already very shifted towards condition tanks. To be honest the condition Meta is out of hand completly. I don´t care for the math which shows a soldier charracter doing slightly more damage than the very same character geared in dire. Condition tanks do more damage than their power-specced counterparts since, you know, condition damage ignores armor. Anyone ignoring this fact is just a blindfolded kitten (self censored here for security… insert favorite word) But that is a whole different story which needs to be adressed. Anyways, removing those runes and food would also ruin a lot of other anti condi specced builds.

No, the change must be done within the warrior class itself. I have stated it multiple times now but nobody seems to ever read or at least answer it. Mobility, damage, sustain – all in one its too much, remove one of them and we´re fine. Remove one part of that equation and the warrior is perfectly balanced. A thief for example has mobility and damage, but lacks sustain.

The thing is i dont know any other class that MUST use runes / traits / foods to be able to land damage and to use their mobility.

Diferent classes = diferent needs.

The changes should be done to the runes / food it self otherwise we are talking about “nerf that profession instead because those runes / foods are usefull in my other profession”.

Everyone knows that those runes + foods are broken. Take them from warriors and see them being snared to dead all the time. And with those modifications mobility on warrior would not be a problem to players anymore.

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Posted by: Curunen.8729

Curunen.8729

Bigger picture => then also +Condi duration runes and food must be nerfed, because they’re equally broken and the main reason for people using -Condi duration stuff.

Personally I think all the things should remain as they are and just and a hard cap on +/-Condi duration at say 50%, or some other suitable number.

Oh and mesmers are kind of pigeonholed into speed boost runes in order to be mobile.