Guild Wars 2

Don’t forget Light fields and whirl/projectile finishers that those groups like using. No traiting needed for those.

a t s e.9614:

hopefully condi thread will stay alive so the devs can fix this broken kitten.

When the patch hits on the 15th this thread will disappear into the depths.

I’m still of the opinion that threads like these are appearing lately because of the crit damage nerf, so people think it’s unfair. However, I will chip in.

I main an engineer and I will totally agree that condition application in 1v1 is very easy to maintain. It drops off as the amount of people in a fight increases, as everyone already knows. Whether this is an issue with conditions themselves or the actual removal of them… More likely the latter but some classes are better at things than others. I have no idea why everyone seems to want every single class to play identically.

Anyway, I digress.

People previously mentioned making them more “tactical” to lower spam and make them more situational.

I had a thought about maybe changing condition damage into another stat, perhaps something like condition intensity.

Then, normalize the damage of conditions to scale with level instead of stat points, and instead have intensity ramp up the secondary effects of conditions, while keeping bleed and burn damage only conditions to keep it a competitive damage option, perhaps even increasing the base damage of these conditions to compensate.

Quick shoddy examples all level 80:

Poison: Static 150 damage per tick. Intensity ramps up healing reduction.

Cripple: Intensity ramps up speed reduction.

Chill: Intensity ramps up cooldown recovery slowdown. Reduce speed reduction to maybe 33% or remove altogether so it’s not just a better version of cripple.

Bleed: Either damage increase or reduction in time between damage ticks.

Burn: Straight damage increase.

Torment: Reduce base damage to a very low static figure, intensity effects the damage while moving only.

Hell, maybe even make regeneration remove 1 condition per 10 seconds. It’s a boon obtained by most classes easily. Maybe even make protection reduce condition duration by 33% as well as the physical reduction.

It’s just a brainstorm and such, but if it was an absolute necessity to change conditions, coming from the perspective of someone who mains a condition build capable class I would feel that this would be fair and would perhaps slow down the condition spam for at least the slightly skilled players who would save certain condis for certain times in a fight, like using a chill after an important cooldown.

All in all I would be not too bothered about a change to condition application, but for the love of Dwayna don’t blanket nerf because of crybabies and make condi builds useless in PvP too. Each of the conditions has a different use and even now it’s better to save certain skills until specific points in a fight, so you can’t change them all in the same manner.

Those are some good points Remicity, but the main problem I see with direct damage vs. condi damage is this. Powerful direct damage attacks can easily be tweaked if a specific skill is too strong, and many direct damage attacks have warm up animations that can be read. How do you balance a build that uses dire gear with 90-95% condi DPS? Let’s consider the three most common condi builds in WvW.

1. The blackwater mesmer. Not a thing you can do when they have 2-3 staff clones out, they all attack you with condis. Dodge out of confusing images and chaos storms. Illusionary counter usually comes randomly. Chaos army uptime 30-40% of the time? What can you do, not attack? More condis. Using a weapon that cleaves? You’re going to get hit by dissipations with tons of bleed, weakness, and cripples. Best option is never to fight this build 1v1 or 1vX if the other players are clueless and end up hurting you more than helping.

2. The P/D perplexity thief. Even if you deny cloaking off yourself, they often just cloak off PvE or walls, and you’re going to catch some portion of sneak attack. Shadow strike is very tough to read with near instant activation and also creates a gap if you’re in melee. The daze + confusion from steal almost always comes from any sort of attack and can’t be denied. Even vital shot ends up being a fairly strong attack with full condition damage and duration increases. Most run D/P on their off set to reset or run away if they get in trouble.

3. Bomb engi. This one pumps the most confusion, but can be read a little since many of the setups come out of tool kit. Still though, you have no idea what bombs are being dropped, and end up being hit by static shots and parts of poison volley. The almost permanent burn if they are using enough rabid gear with incendiary powder is what hurts the most though.

zen.6091:

Those are some good points Remicity, but the main problem I see with direct damage vs. condi damage is this. Powerful direct damage attacks can easily be tweaked if a specific skill is too strong, and many direct damage attacks have warm up animations that can be read. How do you balance a build that uses dire gear with 90-95% condi DPS? Let’s consider the three most common condi builds in WvW.

1. The blackwater mesmer. Not a thing you can do when they have 2-3 staff clones out, they all attack you with condis. Dodge out of confusing images and chaos storms. Illusionary counter usually comes randomly. Chaos army uptime 30-40% of the time? What can you do, not attack? More condis. Using a weapon that cleaves? You’re going to get hit by dissipations with tons of bleed, weakness, and cripples. Best option is never to fight this build 1v1 or 1vX if the other players are clueless and end up hurting you more than helping.

2. The P/D perplexity thief. Even if you deny cloaking off yourself, they often just cloak off PvE or walls, and you’re going to catch some portion of sneak attack. Shadow strike is very tough to read with near instant activation and also creates a gap if you’re in melee. The daze + confusion from steal almost always comes from any sort of attack and can’t be denied. Even vital shot ends up being a fairly strong attack with full condition damage and duration increases. Most run D/P on their off set to reset or run away if they get in trouble.

3. Bomb engi. This one pumps the most confusion, but can be read a little since many of the setups come out of tool kit. Still though, you have no idea what bombs are being dropped, and end up being hit by static shots and parts of poison volley. The almost permanent burn if they are using enough rabid gear with incendiary powder is what hurts the most though.

1v1 is all your referring to.

They aren’t going to change condition balance because of 1v1’s. Conditions are probably the only thing keeping many of the direct damage builds in check. If I didn’t have to worry about conditions in a 1v1 I would move defensive traits to damage.

You can’t nerf, adjust, or anything in 1v1’s without making the above worse. Making anything weaker in 1v1’s will always make it weaker in groups. Nothing in the game follows some wild crazy made up programming suggestion of group and individual scaling so that is off the table.

Just drop the 1v1 and duel scenarios if they where to do that what is left over will have more people calling for nerfs to other builds. The cycle will never end because people crave self sufficiency in duels and conditions don’t allow them to be able to handle power and condition builds with equal success.

The reason why you might be able to beat a 10/30/30/ thief now is because he has shadow embrace on where as if he didn’t feel the need to run it anymore then he picks up infusion of shadow for more initiative or picks up regen on stealth for more sustain.

Conditions are probably the sole reason thieves with 30 in shadow arts can’t run shadow protector and shadow rejuvenation.

Conditions aren’t a issue? 15 water on my ele 25 points moved to damage. Why even go into water beyond the 15 point mark.

Conditions not a issue? Take guardian bunker up more no need for pure of voice throw that away, no reason to go 20 virtues anymore.

Conditions not a issue? Whats a cleansing ire? Whats a dogged march? Whats melandru runes? Whats lemongrass? Let me move those points to strength or arms or take another damage modifier, missile deflection.

This is what will happen conditions are the only thing keeping the direct damage builds people find difficult to fight in 1v1’s in check. Condis probably kept lyssa rune users in check more then you realize because if there is a condition class around it would be better to save the elite after I’m loaded instead of using it offensively.

You nerf conditions because of 1v1’s then you indirectly buff every direct damage build out there. Some are only held in check now because of condition damage.

Yoh.8469:

Yeah, direct damage also has some of these problems? So bloody what, that doesn’t make the problems with conditions any more non existent.
And this discussion is not about direct damage, it is irrelevant and off topic.

It is relevant: you state that it’s a problem for conditions and want a solution but you don’t post anything about it for power so that means either:
- You are biased towards conditions.
- It is not a problem.

Yoh.8469:

Also you clearly didn’t read beyond that point, where I specifically mention the other huge reason conditions have counter play issues which is absolutely not the case with direct damage,

I did read those points mind you and answered them.

Yoh.8469:

which is knowing how much damage you will take.
With direct damage you know exactly how much damage you have taken and it’s easy to calculate how much damage you can take after a few hits, and there are a reasonable few options to mitigate it, thou there could always stand to be more.

But with conditions, besides trying to outright avoiding them in the first place, you have no earthly idea how much damage they will actually do to you. Read the part where I go into detail on this problem.
And stop conflating two different things.

like I told you before I believe that there is not a single simple UI model that will not allow people to fool their opponents in to cleansing at the wrong time.

Tim.6450:

Yoh.8469:

Yeah, direct damage also has some of these problems? So bloody what, that doesn’t make the problems with conditions any more non existent.
And this discussion is not about direct damage, it is irrelevant and off topic.

It is relevant: you state that it’s a problem for conditions and want a solution but you don’t post anything about it for power so that means either:
- You are biased towards conditions.
- It is not a problem.

Yoh.8469:

Also you clearly didn’t read beyond that point, where I specifically mention the other huge reason conditions have counter play issues which is absolutely not the case with direct damage,

I did read those points mind you and answered them.

Yoh.8469:

which is knowing how much damage you will take.
With direct damage you know exactly how much damage you have taken and it’s easy to calculate how much damage you can take after a few hits, and there are a reasonable few options to mitigate it, thou there could always stand to be more.

But with conditions, besides trying to outright avoiding them in the first place, you have no earthly idea how much damage they will actually do to you. Read the part where I go into detail on this problem.
And stop conflating two different things.

like I told you before I believe that there is not a single simple UI model that will not allow people to fool their opponents in to cleansing at the wrong time.

Fair enough with the first point.
Second point is just flat out wrong, it’s a false dichotomy. Third, that they both have problems but I am electing to discuss conditions rather then power.
If you want to discuss the problem with power builds, be my guest, do it in another thread, I will probably agree with you. But just because I don’t give them equal treatment, doesn’t make the points I raise any less valid.
It’s the same dumb argument people keep making and it’s just intellectually lazy.

Third, I wasn’t talking about you, you at least try to make decent points, some of these other guys clearly didn’t read or understand the point I was trying to make. Ie cherry picking.

Your forth point I just find bewildering, can you clarify what your talking about?

oZii.2864:

1v1 is all your referring to.

They aren’t going to change condition balance because of 1v1’s. Conditions are probably the only thing keeping many of the direct damage builds in check. If I didn’t have to worry about conditions in a 1v1 I would move defensive traits to damage.

You can’t nerf, adjust, or anything in 1v1’s without making the above worse. Making anything weaker in 1v1’s will always make it weaker in groups. Nothing in the game follows some wild crazy made up programming suggestion of group and individual scaling so that is off the table.

Just drop the 1v1 and duel scenarios if they where to do that what is left over will have more people calling for nerfs to other builds. The cycle will never end because people crave self sufficiency in duels and conditions don’t allow them to be able to handle power and condition builds with equal success.

The reason why you might be able to beat a 10/30/30/ thief now is because he has shadow embrace on where as if he didn’t feel the need to run it anymore then he picks up infusion of shadow for more initiative or picks up regen on stealth for more sustain.

Conditions are probably the sole reason thieves with 30 in shadow arts can’t run shadow protector and shadow rejuvenation.

Conditions aren’t a issue? 15 water on my ele 25 points moved to damage. Why even go into water beyond the 15 point mark.

Conditions not a issue? Take guardian bunker up more no need for pure of voice throw that away, no reason to go 20 virtues anymore.

Conditions not a issue? Whats a cleansing ire? Whats a dogged march? Whats melandru runes? Whats lemongrass? Let me move those points to strength or arms or take another damage modifier, missile deflection.

This is what will happen conditions are the only thing keeping the direct damage builds people find difficult to fight in 1v1’s in check. Condis probably kept lyssa rune users in check more then you realize because if there is a condition class around it would be better to save the elite after I’m loaded instead of using it offensively.

You nerf conditions because of 1v1’s then you indirectly buff every direct damage build out there. Some are only held in check now because of condition damage.

I wasn’t only referring to 1v1s, but I respect your opinion because GF has consistently been one of the best small group guilds.

Let’s peel back those ten paragraphs and consider only three things:

1. 40% duration food
2. Perplexity runes
3. Gear stats that are primary condition damage + two defensive stats

If the argument here is that condition builds need all three of these things to be playable, isn’t that a problem in and of itself? None of these things exist in sPvP, so what’s the argument here, all three are needed to counteract the increased stats power builds have?

I admit that I’m completely biased here. I find most of the condition builds completely boring to play and even more boring to face. Even worse, if you have a build with a little bit of condition pressure, when everyone is forced to run the -condi food and lots of purging, it makes your conditions completely useless. I think this drives the meta to the extremes and ruins build diversity.

I have long agreed that some power builds are also way out of balance too, but that’s a different topic with more paragraphs. The upcoming crit nerf is a cure for the headache by chopping off an arm I’m afraid.

zen.6091:

Let’s peel back those ten paragraphs and consider only three things:

1. 40% duration food
2. Perplexity runes
3. Gear stats that are primary condition damage + two defensive stats

If the argument here is that condition builds need all three of these things to be playable, isn’t that a problem in and of itself? None of these things exist in sPvP, so what’s the argument here, all three are needed to counteract the increased stats power builds have?

I admit that I’m completely biased here. I find most of the condition builds completely boring to play and even more boring to face. Even worse, if you have a build with a little bit of condition pressure, when everyone is forced to run the -condi food and lots of purging, it makes your conditions completely useless. I think this drives the meta to the extremes and ruins build diversity.

As you say, those three things are not existent in PvP. So why, then, do people scream and holler about conditions being OP in PvP? Could it be that they’re just mad because they discovered the hard way you can’t have everything in a build?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

zen.6091:

Let’s peel back those ten paragraphs and consider only three things:

1. 40% duration food
2. Perplexity runes
3. Gear stats that are primary condition damage + two defensive stats

If the argument here is that condition builds need all three of these things to be playable, isn’t that a problem in and of itself? None of these things exist in sPvP, so what’s the argument here, all three are needed to counteract the increased stats power builds have?

I admit that I’m completely biased here. I find most of the condition builds completely boring to play and even more boring to face. Even worse, if you have a build with a little bit of condition pressure, when everyone is forced to run the -condi food and lots of purging, it makes your conditions completely useless. I think this drives the meta to the extremes and ruins build diversity.

As you say, those three things are not existent in PvP. So why, then, do people scream and holler about conditions being OP in PvP? Could it be that they’re just mad because they discovered the hard way you can’t have everything in a build?

Well, I certainly think that is part of it. But I think the other part is with conditions in general, where it is next to impossible to gauge just how much damage your liable to take from the conditions, and with little to no information it’s difficult to know how to react accordingly.

So there it a large amount of guess work when it comes to removing them, and knowing how much removal that you need. The game does a terrible job conveying that information, and there are too many variables to do the math in your head.

Yoh.8469:

Tim.6450:

Yoh.8469:

You people, how painfully stupid are you?

Please don’t insult people like that. It does not help you in any form.In fact it makes you look juvenile.

Yoh.8469:

Yeah, direct damage also has some of these problems? So bloody what, that doesn’t make the problems with conditions any more non existent.
And this discussion is not about direct damage, it is irrelevant and off topic.

It is relevant: you state that it’s a problem for conditions and want a solution but you don’t post anything about it for power so that means either:
- You are biased towards conditions.
- It is not a problem.

Yoh.8469:

Also you clearly didn’t read beyond that point, where I specifically mention the other huge reason conditions have counter play issues which is absolutely not the case with direct damage,

I did read those points mind you and answered them.

Yoh.8469:

which is knowing how much damage you will take.
With direct damage you know exactly how much damage you have taken and it’s easy to calculate how much damage you can take after a few hits, and there are a reasonable few options to mitigate it, thou there could always stand to be more.

But with conditions, besides trying to outright avoiding them in the first place, you have no earthly idea how much damage they will actually do to you. Read the part where I go into detail on this problem.
And stop conflating two different things.

like I told you before I believe that there is not a single simple UI model that will not allow people to fool their opponents in to cleansing at the wrong time.

Fair enough with the first point.
Second point is just flat out wrong, it’s a false dichotomy. Third, that they both have problems but I am electing to discuss conditions rather then power.
If you want to discuss the problem with power builds, be my guest, do it in another thread, I will probably agree with you. But just because I don’t give them equal treatment, doesn’t make the points I raise any less valid.
It’s the same dumb argument people keep making and it’s just intellectually lazy.

Third, I wasn’t talking about you, you at least try to make decent points, some of these other guys clearly didn’t read or understand the point I was trying to make. Ie cherry picking.

Your forth point I just find bewildering, can you clarify what your talking about?

Well the point is that I believe that no matter what UI you choose it will either be:
-too much/little information
-too complex (it takes too much time to read correctly)
-A player can use the UI to it’s advantage so that it’s opponent cleanses at the wrong time.

I will give you some examples of UI’s and their problems:

-the current system: you cannot see you’re future damage only see your current damage. You can calculate an upper bound (damage*stack*time) but that takes too much time for combat.

-You show how much condition damage you take per condition (bleed,poison,etc) if you don’t cleanse: this would work if there didn’t exist low stack long duration conditions like “blood is power”. In a realistic situation “blood is power” will hit for 9K damage over 42 seconds (2 stacks), nobody would cleanse this skill alone, but the 9K will trigger players into using their cleanse skill wrongly. Also it ‘covers’ for other bleeds so the player has to cleanse or lose his UI.

-You show how much condition damage you take per condition (bleed,poison,etc) in the next X seconds if you don’t cleanse: You do not know if it is the right time or not due to a lack of information (you don’t know how to cleanse in the future).

-You show every stack a player has: too much information.

- system where you show how much damage you take per tick (ordered on the time of each tick: the first tick first second tick second, etc): Take blood is power you need to display 42 ticks and don’t forget other conditions because they too have other ticks so a player will receive information overload.

Before you talk “blood is power” is the problem there condition which stack in duration which can give you the same problem, “blood is power” is just a simpler example.

Another problem I haven’t mentioned is might and other stat increases. The damage a condition does is not calculated at the application but a the moment of ticking so this can cause some extra confusion (not much but it can be a problem).

Yoh.8469:

So there it a large amount of guess work when it comes to removing them, and knowing how much removal that you need. The game does a terrible job conveying that information, and there are too many variables to do the math in your head.

There could probably be some UI tweaking to help but I feel a big part of it is knowledge of the classes abilities. This still won’t allow a build that is weak to condition pressure to always win but it does greatly help you.

Now I feel the opposite argument can be made that the player base shouldn’t be forced to learn the other classes if they don’t want to, but if you want to be a better player you should. The same happens with power builds you don’t truly see the weakness in thieves until you actually play one imo.

Maybe they could tweak the AI on the NPC’s in the mist to use the popular burst rotations of those specific builds. Maybe some text interaction that allowed you to change the spec of the NPCs running some cookie cutter direct damage, support, or condition build.

Tim.6450:

Well the point is that I believe that no matter what UI you choose it will either be:
-too much/little information
-too complex (it takes too much time to read correctly)
-A player can use the UI to it’s advantage so that it’s opponent cleanses at the wrong time.

I will give you some examples of UI’s and their problems:

-the current system: you cannot see you’re future damage only see your current damage. You can calculate an upper bound (damage*stack*time) but that takes too much time for combat.

-You show how much condition damage you take per condition (bleed,poison,etc) if you don’t cleanse: this would work if there didn’t exist low stack long duration conditions like “blood is power”. In a realistic situation “blood is power” will hit for 9K damage over 42 seconds (2 stacks), nobody would cleanse this skill alone, but the 9K will trigger players into using their cleanse skill wrongly. Also it ‘covers’ for other bleeds so the player has to cleanse or lose his UI.

-You show how much condition damage you take per condition (bleed,poison,etc) in the next X seconds if you don’t cleanse: You do not know if it is the right time or not due to a lack of information (you don’t know how to cleanse in the future).

-You show every stack a player has: too much information.

- system where you show how much damage you take per tick (ordered on the time of each tick: the first tick first second tick second, etc): Take blood is power you need to display 42 ticks and don’t forget other conditions because they too have other ticks so a player will receive information overload.

Before you talk “blood is power” is the problem there condition which stack in duration which can give you the same problem, “blood is power” is just a simpler example.

Another problem I haven’t mentioned is might and other stat increases. The damage a condition does is not calculated at the application but a the moment of ticking so this can cause some extra confusion (not much but it can be a problem).

I see your point in how people might make the wrong decision if given this information, but people make the wrong decision now because of the lack of information, which I would argue is worse due to the fact that with even a rough, projected estimation of how much damage your liable to take from the conditions you have over their duration in addition to how much they are currently doing to you each tick, you have the ability to make an informed decision, even if it turns out to be the wrong decision.
But an uninformed decision is not a choice, your guessing at best. And we know people make the wrong decision all the time, as they come on here and complain about conditions, even if they attribute the problem to something else.

I would agree that it may be too much information if you know how much damage everyone is going to take, but at the very least you should have an approximate idea of how much damage your going to take, and maybe your party members.

Might does throw a wrench into it, so whatever UI implementation is never going to be 100% accurate, but even an approximation is better then no information.

But at the end of the day we are talking about something that is mathematical, and can be calculated to a high degree of accuracy, something that computers do very well. I just UI elements to inform us these calculation in a clear and concise manner, rather then expect players to do all the math in their head in the middle of combat.

Most of the roamers are also very unorganized, and just “want to duel”, basically.

Organized roamers are very dangerous, but rare. The other night Fort Ranik had 3 Thieves and 1 Guardian do a very stealth heavy team basically making an sub-party travel between Garrison and left Keep impossible.
That is dangerous roaming. Oh, and they don’t do conditions. Or rather, one Thief loaded you up on bleeds and shared poisons to the others. That way even if the two + the guardian fail to kill you, you can’t run away, and you have to run away.

If you want to complain about conditions, at least look at actual PvP gameplay, not that weird artificial duelling some of the forum population seem to be into.
Conditions can be powerful. But they’re not outrageously powerful unless you work on creating a game format in which they are. But the devs never added that, so why do you do it?

Yoh.8469:

I see your point in how people might make the wrong decision if given this information, but people make the wrong decision now because of the lack of information, which I would argue is worse due to the fact that with even a rough, projected estimation of how much damage your liable to take from the conditions you have over their duration in addition to how much they are currently doing to you each tick, you have the ability to make an informed decision, even if it turns out to be the wrong decision.
But an uninformed decision is not a choice, your guessing at best. And we know people make the wrong decision all the time, as they come on here and complain about conditions, even if they attribute the problem to something else.

I would agree that it may be too much information if you know how much damage everyone is going to take, but at the very least you should have an approximate idea of how much damage your going to take, and maybe your party members.

Might does throw a wrench into it, so whatever UI implementation is never going to be 100% accurate, but even an approximation is better then no information.

But at the end of the day we are talking about something that is mathematical, and can be calculated to a high degree of accuracy, something that computers do very well. I just UI elements to inform us these calculation in a clear and concise manner, rather then expect players to do all the math in their head in the middle of combat.

What about confusion? Torment’s movement penalty? They cannot be displayed accurately since they are not known to the computer.

Interesting enough this thread moves back and forth between:
Conditions are OP and no, DPS is OP. Well everybody has a point. I ike conditions in PvE I’m not a PvP player, my 5 pvp wins with warrior were a rabid longbow/rifle combo. WvW I play everything: hybrids, zerks, tanks, condis, conditanks

Damage does Damage thats what it’s for, either DPS or DOT or Both. When we cannot do dmg we cannot play. Condition Dmg is to control tanks and DPS is to control conditions or is it?

I see a lot of remarks
- DOT ticks on on disengagement.
Yes it does and it’s build up slower as well.

-Condition Damage is OP
Well DPS as well, both will kill you, eventually

-Condition Duration is OP
Well… Make sure you cap the 24 second bleeding stacks, or bring something else that sends it back or removes it or debufs it (generosity/purity?)

-Condition Damage should be removed
Well then remove DPS as well… No wait just remove all dmg and make all fights Costume Brawls.

Remove condition Duration:
Ok but only if we also remove all defuf food and runes,
Don’t want that, then just cap it. If someone gives you 12 stacks of 24 sec long bleeds… and you do nothing, well you deserve to die

-If Condition Duration is removed then Critical dmg should be removed
Well why not. Remove everything: Nerf the game ino oblivion and have us kill ppl in wvw not in 5 seconds but in 2 minutes, and destroy any gamespeed. Why not remove speedboosts and other boosts as well.

-PvP conditions are OP
yes they are as they limit the time you can do DPS. Either you kill him OR he will wear you down.

-PvE conditions are negligable
True certainly for confusion (most confusion doesnt even trigger on bosses with 1 attack per 5-10 seconds, torment does dmg and was very nice, but noone kites in PvE => no extra dmg), lesser problems with bleed (although…. ANY class doesnbleeds, some even do 1 or 2 sec bleeds very often with no condition dmg, and ppl cannot choose NOT to take these or need them for extra dmg removing useable stacks for condition classes In a party with 4 DPS warriors and 1 Condi warrior the condi warrior does most dmg with tormen t I seldom saw 2500 DPS through bleeds… just because the other warriors just make acontious stack of 6-10 bleeds )

-WvW conditions are useless in zerg WvW
Well they are, with 20 ppl running soldiers atm ALL conditions are cleansed with regular intervals, double so it they are shout healers.

-WvW conditions outside the zerg are OP
Well They might be. but time is against condition players if you get attacked claose to the zerg. DOT needs time to be effective.

-Not enough cleanses/ too long a recharge
Well I agree paritally: nice to take a clean which cleanes 1 condition every 40 seconds but I do agree with posters you can get 2 ,3, or almost all conditions instantly and you sometimes cannot clean that much. If you get attacked by 2 double sword warriors then you still die of conditions, but 1 was attacking you to cancel cleanses and wil not kill 1 of your allies in the same time. But still you could have understood that if a meta is condition heavy you take sigil of purity, take condition removal runeset if possible, reduce all durations with runes and food…

-Abundance of condition covers
Well see previous one

-Zerks not wanting to carry condi removal
Yes because it will lower DPS. If you cannot kill it in the time your build stay up, you should change something, maybe a sigil of purity instead of a sigil of force? keep your sharpening stone and take condi debuf food

-To many different conditions
No they serve individual purposes
blind = 1 missed attack then goes away
weakness = removes effectiveness of attacks
bleed = condition DMG
torment = removal of positioning/ removes chance of escape, minor DMG If you walk you pay.
confusion = shutdown mechanic, If you use a skill you pay.
venom = Destroys healing capacity secondary condition DMG
burning = Additional condition DMG non stacking. (spike?)
vulnerability = “Lowers armor” Adds Incoming DPS received
cripple = removal of positioning/ removes chance of escape No dmg
frozen = Skill Slowing/ Outgoing DMG reduction

-Conditions can be gained by sigils and runes.
Well we’re still a long way from a condition guardian.

- Conditions are capped.
Which is good and bad. It’s bad seeing some conditions shouldn’tr be capped (e.g. bleeding) and good becasue a lot would be OP but if ppl can cast 50 stack on you you’ll die if you have no removal (and just imagine srending it back or bouncing it?….)

- Condition DMg is based on 1 stat.
NO it’s not its based on 4 becasue to be effective with DOT you need to do conditions (a big part using precision (we’ll see the near future and the new meta in a couple of days)) , boost dmg (condi Dmg & condi duration) and stay ALIVE When you are DPS-ed! (toughness (lesser extent healing))

- Ppl can stack to many stacks of Condition X and thats bad…
Well some ppl can remove 8 conditions in a row removing all my stacks every 3-4 seconds not allowing me to get above 6-12 stacks at any time. and still DPS me…. That’s also bad. But if it wouldn’t be like this, I wouldn’t be having fun. I’d just see 2 max power builds killing each other and seeing it won by the lucky dodge or the RNG favorit.

Currently, though my opinion on condis changes every five minutes, the only thing that really bothers me is that you don’t so much outplay them as outbuild them.

I don’t find that to be an engaging challenge.

What do you base that statement on? You do not out play direct damage anymore then conditions. All you do their is out “toughness” them.

Tim.6450:

Yoh.8469:

I see your point in how people might make the wrong decision if given this information, but people make the wrong decision now because of the lack of information, which I would argue is worse due to the fact that with even a rough, projected estimation of how much damage your liable to take from the conditions you have over their duration in addition to how much they are currently doing to you each tick, you have the ability to make an informed decision, even if it turns out to be the wrong decision.
But an uninformed decision is not a choice, your guessing at best. And we know people make the wrong decision all the time, as they come on here and complain about conditions, even if they attribute the problem to something else.

I would agree that it may be too much information if you know how much damage everyone is going to take, but at the very least you should have an approximate idea of how much damage your going to take, and maybe your party members.

Might does throw a wrench into it, so whatever UI implementation is never going to be 100% accurate, but even an approximation is better then no information.

But at the end of the day we are talking about something that is mathematical, and can be calculated to a high degree of accuracy, something that computers do very well. I just UI elements to inform us these calculation in a clear and concise manner, rather then expect players to do all the math in their head in the middle of combat.

What about confusion? Torment’s movement penalty? They cannot be displayed accurately since they are not known to the computer.

Mmmm, wrong.
You’d know exactly how much damage your going to take from Confusion and Torment, it would just display differently then other dots.
Confusion for example would show a purple bar that simple shows just how much damage you will take when you use skills. It’s would probably be smaller, but it’s information you can know.

Torment is a little trickier, but you could make a color bar that is half and half, the top half being the minimum, the lower half being the maximum.
Of coarse this is never going to be 100% percent accurate because your own actions factor in, however it enough to make an informed decision.
Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.

Wow, that would totally bog down the system and offer massive opportunity for more lag, only to promote less need to simply show awareness.

Personally, it makes more sense to me to cause a player to display some awareness, rather then force the rest of us who already use awareness, to suffer from unnecessarily heavier lag.

dancingmonkey.4902:

What do you base that statement on? You do not out play direct damage anymore then conditions. All you do their is out “toughness” them.

first of all

direct damage does not get the advantages of:

• inflicting mobility incapacitation from chill, cripple, fear, torment, and of course, immobilization
• skill/damage mitigation from blind, confusion, fear, chill, torment, and weakness
• inflicting diminished survivability from vulnerability, poison, confusion, and chill
• continued damage when an enemy is otherwise “safe” (blocking, invisible, out of range, etc.)
• high offensive capability (and pressure) while maintaining raw defensive viability
• lack of condition equivalent to protection; and no, regen is sorry at best
• a general high lack of fair counters
  (all mostly simultaneously.)

second of all

condition builds are typically tanks or tanky at the very least. tank-style gameplay will always tend to be less reliant on out-playing your opponent due to the forgiving nature derived from their build.

condition tanks benefit from this forgiving nature, but while direct damage tanks at least suffer from lower offensive ability, condition tanks can still relatively melt players. conditions are doing much of the work here offensively (and slightly defensively) while stats from gear and traitlines and the traits themselves are doing much of the heavy lifting defensively.

when the fact is what your using is why you’re winning rather than how you use something, you aren’t out playing anyone- and this is exactly the case with most condition builds.

I hate when people say condition damage can be reduced because we can remove conditions. Well, shoot! You can reduce physical damage then by going invulnerable, blocking, blinding, and having protection up!

coglin.1867:

Sons.5493:

There’s no real need to explain why condition build are so terrible unbalanced.

Actually there is. As the educated players have all seen the skill damage comparisons and videos proving that in most cases direct damage builds out damage condition builds. I am going to guess your making this blind accusation after having run zero test and no damage comparisons what so ever. I suggest doing it in soldiers compared to dire as I and other have already done, broken down, videod, and posted.

Sons.5493:

It taked 1 stat to max out damage and the other 2 can be ba directed towards tankiness while direct damage users need, power, precision AND critical damage to proc our best output in sacriface of all survival whatsoever.

This is actually untrue. I challenge you to prove your claims. Take the top damage builds in soldiers gear (only takes 1 stat for damage and the exact same two defensive stats). Hopefully in trying, you will learn for yourself what so many others have learned, tested, and posted, long ago.

Sons.5493:

As a thief player there’s not enough cond removal in any kind of build which can remove all the condition that condition build can apply (and re-apply cus why not) other than heavily investing in a trait line that i may or may not feel like traiting in just to counter game imbalances. That’s the reality of gw2.

Shadow Step/Return and Shadows Embrace are the best bet for thief. As a profession they are one of the lesser for condition removal, but that is in the inherent design of the profession. Condition applying skills are as easy to dodge as any other skill, just as hard to apply as direct damage skills when in stealth. There are some other professions with just as bad condition removal.

Sons.5493:

Anyone who denies how conditions are completly broken in this game on all classes going from Thief, mesmer, engie (broken as kitten k bye) Necro and warrior (also gg broken), is purely lying to himself or is a condition user himself.

That is not a very well thought out argument. Anyone who claims this has simply tested it and knows that it is actually a fact that direct damage builds have higher damage out put then conditions, and this is based on test and damage break downs in equivalent off/def stated gear.

Perhaps you should actually do a test yourself, and know some facts before you make such uninformed comments.

Although his claims come out ignorant, I believe his ignorance is as valuable as your knowledge

Conditions are a problem, regardless if they come out doing less damage than direct damage, they should. Classes that have the ability to dish out tons of condition damage and then kite or prevent damage being applied to them are the real problem. Now can you counter this? In current SPvP? not so much, but in WvW you can for sure. Should we be forced to build around countering conditions? I personally don’t think so.

I’d also like to point out something I think most people overlook when it comes to condition duration vs condition reduction.

Lets say I have a condition that lasts 10 seconds, I want to gain more duration for my condition so it lasts longer, therefore giving me more dps. Lets pretend I gain 40% duration for my condition which lasts 10 seconds. I now have a duration of 14 seconds.

Now lets pretend that condition with 14 seconds of duration is being casted upon you, but you have a tick up your sleeve, you ate some lemon grass poultry soup which gives you a reduction to conditions by 40%, I’m assuming most of you think that just means that 4 extra seconds now go away, right? Wrong! You diminish the value by almost 6 seconds. There for that food you ate to reduce condition duration really paid off.

mrauls.6519:

I hate when people say condition damage can be reduced because we can remove conditions. Well, shoot! You can reduce physical damage then by going invulnerable, blocking, blinding, and having protection up!

fun thing is three of the four things you say to reduce power damage work also on conditions.

Grimreaper.5370:

Should we be forced to build around countering conditions? I personally don’t think so.

I have to disagree. Without conditions as a strong enough threat to force some variation in builds, boon bunkers become the de facto king over all pvp modes.

Which sounds wonderful if that’s all you want to play but to the rest of us it will get very boring because there is no longer any variety left. And without enough players the game dies so then even the former players don’t get their wish in the long term either.

To me these complaints just come down to people wanting to not to have to choose.

One can build for a effective combination of some of the following: power damage, power mitigation, condition damage, condition mitigation, and a sprinkling of support/healing. You can realistically right now choose for only some of these which forces players to either leave a hole in their defenses, or sacrifice one of the other areas.

People need to nut up and realize they don’t get to have it all.

sinject.4607:

condition builds are typically tanks or tanky at the very least. tank-style gameplay will always tend to be less reliant on out-playing your opponent due to the forgiving nature derived from their build.

condition tanks benefit from this forgiving nature, but while direct damage tanks at least suffer from lower offensive ability, condition tanks can still relatively melt players. conditions are doing much of the work here offensively (and slightly defensively) while stats from gear and traitlines and the traits themselves are doing much of the heavy lifting defensively.

Where are these condition tanks? Seems like people put just a tad to much value into toughness v vitality.

When I think tank I think soldier hambow warrior or guardian running 0/0/10/30/30. A d/d ele in clerics/soldiers, a Regen ranger.

I never came across a engineer or necro running any of the standard condi builds and thought “man that was tanky” definitely not like fighting a shout warrior or guardian.

What is tanky anyway? Not glass? Cause tanky can’t be bunker right?

So you have glass, tanky, and bunker I guess. Where is the threshold when you leave glass and become tanky and go from tanky to become bunker? We should get some values out there because it seems like tanky is a way to insinuate bunker.

Grimreaper.5370:

Lets say I have a condition that lasts 10 seconds, I want to gain more duration for my condition so it lasts longer, therefore giving me more dps. Lets pretend I gain 40% duration for my condition which lasts 10 seconds. I now have a duration of 14 seconds.

Now lets pretend that condition with 14 seconds of duration is being casted upon you, but you have a tick up your sleeve, you ate some lemon grass poultry soup which gives you a reduction to conditions by 40%, I’m assuming most of you think that just means that 4 extra seconds now go away, right? Wrong! You diminish the value by almost 6 seconds. There for that food you ate to reduce condition duration really paid off.

It has been already tested, and you can test this with a friend as well, that the duration bonuses are always calculated from the base duration. So -40% food cancels +40% food out. Your calculation would be correct, if it would calculate bonuses and maluses multiplicative. However, they are simply added and subtracted onto each other.

It’s more fair to say that tanky builds lend themselves to conditions than the other way around, since conditions require more time to kill someone than a glass cannon power-crit burst.

I almost never hear of someone using a large amount of Rampager’s gear outside of certain Thief or Mesmer builds who have other ways to avoid damage. I speculate the same would hold true for a Condition-Precision-Duration array if it were to exist.

My experiences tend to agree with him. I run across 3 DD bunker types for every condi bunker, maybe even 5 to 1 these last few weeks in WvW anyway.

sinject.4607:

oZii.2864:

Where are these condition tanks? Seems like people put just a tad to much value into toughness v vitality.

When I think tank I think soldier hambow warrior or guardian running 0/0/10/30/30. A d/d ele in clerics/soldiers, a Regen ranger.

I never came across a engineer or necro running any of the standard condi builds and thought “man that was tanky” definitely not like fighting a shout warrior or guardian.

What is tanky anyway? Not glass? Cause tanky can’t be bunker right?

So you have glass, tanky, and bunker I guess. Where is the threshold when you leave glass and become tanky and go from tanky to become bunker? We should get some values out there because it seems like tanky is a way to insinuate bunker.

to seriously suggest condition tanks do not exist and conditions do not lend themselves to tanky builds is beyond any ignorance i’ve encountered discussing conditions.

honestly it really isn’t worth my time to respond to this at all

I didn’t say they didn’t exist a S/S Longbow warrior is a example of a condi tank in my mind but the terrormancer and P/S or P/P engineer I do not consider a condi bunker.

I just asked what your definition of tank is. See alot of people throw words around like OP just because something is good it is automatically OP.

So since you state there are tanky condi builds what defines a condi tank in your eyes. That is all I am asking where is the threshold from glass, tank, and bunker. There should be some vitality or toughness values you can assign so I can understand what you call “tank” or “tanky”. This is obviously a personal question because your tank might not be my tank.

sinject.4607:

you know you can suggest or imply things with out directly saying them right?

and what else do you want me to do? lie and say “it’s a pleasure having to waste my time to explain every aspect and detail of my argument over and over again to people like you in response to your poorly thought out, substance-less reply!”?

it’s tiring and just doesn’t justify a proper response.

It can’t be that hard to say 16k hp and 2.6k armor? That is all I am asking for specificity. If someone asked what is alot of power in a thief build you don’t have to show the damage equation and give a auto attack damage breakdown, you could just say 2.5k power done.

Maybe you will come back with some specific numbers since you never have stated any. Vaguely throwing out “tanky” and “tank” can work to I guess.

oZii.2864:

sinject.4607:

you know you can suggest or imply things with out directly saying them right?

and what else do you want me to do? lie and say “it’s a pleasure having to waste my time to explain every aspect and detail of my argument over and over again to people like you in response to your poorly thought out, substance-less reply!”?

it’s tiring and just doesn’t justify a proper response.

It can’t be that hard to say 16k hp and 2.6k armor? That is all I am asking for specificity. If someone asked what is alot of power in a thief build you don’t have to show the damage equation and give a auto attack damage breakdown, you could just say 2.5k power done.

Maybe you will come back with some specific numbers since you never have stated any. Vaguely throwing out “tanky” and “tank” can work to I guess.

congratulations on hiding behind the very thing you are accusing me of. you at no point stated any facts, gave no evidence, no logical reasoning behind anything, gave little elaboration and just said i’m wrong based on what i’m assuming to be tailored “experiences”.

so please, throw out all the figures you want, i’ll be happy to put in some effort into my response when you do yours.

sinject.4607:

oZii.2864:

sinject.4607:

you know you can suggest or imply things with out directly saying them right?

and what else do you want me to do? lie and say “it’s a pleasure having to waste my time to explain every aspect and detail of my argument over and over again to people like you in response to your poorly thought out, substance-less reply!”?

it’s tiring and just doesn’t justify a proper response.

It can’t be that hard to say 16k hp and 2.6k armor? That is all I am asking for specificity. If someone asked what is alot of power in a thief build you don’t have to show the damage equation and give a auto attack damage breakdown, you could just say 2.5k power done.

Maybe you will come back with some specific numbers since you never have stated any. Vaguely throwing out “tanky” and “tank” can work to I guess.

congratulations on hiding behind the very thing you are accusing me of. you at no point stated any facts, gave no evidence, no logical reasoning behind anything, gave little elaboration and just said i’m wrong based on what i’m assuming to be tailored “experiences”.

so please, throw out all the figures you want, i’ll be happy to put in some effort into my response when you do yours.

Umm, He is simply asking you to elaborate on some terms you used. no need to keep reading things into his words, that he did not say, and make sound as if it is some personal attack on you.

I am curious too. What stat levels do you define as “tanky”???

sinject.4607:

congratulations on hiding behind the very thing you are accusing me of. you at no point stated any facts, gave no evidence, no logical reasoning behind anything, gave little elaboration and just said i’m wrong based on what i’m assuming to be tailored “experiences”.

so please, throw out all the figures you want, i’ll be happy to put in some effort into my response when you do yours.

Wut? I just asked for what you specifically consider tanky. Why you going Defcon 1? It is just a question. I’m not accusing you of anything.

Condi buffed again GG

Tim.6450:

mrauls.6519:

I hate when people say condition damage can be reduced because we can remove conditions. Well, shoot! You can reduce physical damage then by going invulnerable, blocking, blinding, and having protection up!

fun thing is three of the four things you say to reduce power damage work also on conditions.

Are you joking? If conditions are already on me, but I just start blocking, I still take damage from the conditions on me. You said 3/4, well even if I blind my opponent and have conditions on me, I still take damage. I didn’t say condition application, we’re talking about condition damage here. Don’t try to act like conditions aren’t wild in their current state. What you just said is wrong

If you block after taking direct damage, you still take the direct damage as well.

He’s talking about blocking the application of the condition.

You’re being obtuse.

They nerfed quite a lot offensive stats of traits and equipment.
But at the same time they pushed DPS from runes and sigils. (balancing runes is way easier than balancing classes and builds that now have less impact on damage).

They afaik didn t buff defensive runes by much maybe because they didn t nerf defensive stats at all.

Only downside is condition damage got the same buff direct damage has but without any nerf.

I would really start halving condition duration food in WWW

mrauls.6519:

Are you joking? If conditions are already on me, but I just start blocking, I still take damage from the conditions on me. You said 3/4, well even if I blind my opponent and have conditions on me, I still take damage. I didn’t say condition application, we’re talking about condition damage here. Don’t try to act like conditions aren’t wild in their current state. What you just said is wrong

You can’t be serious? It is as if you have no concept of the game mechanics. If I am on my warrior in all soldiers P/V/T gear, my hammer auto attacks hit for 1100. So I hit you with 2 auto attacks for 2200 damage, and you dodge the third. You got 2200 applied and dodged the 1400 damage attack. If I attack with 3 condition damage skills and the first one lands 6 bleeds for 840 damage over 6s. The second skill lands 4s of poison for 1140 damage over 4s. Then you dodge the third of 2s burn for 1500 damage. Then you take similar amounts of damage in both cases, and dodge similar amounts of damage in both cases. The only situational difference is, in the condition case, you can cleanse the first two that you didn’t dodge, almost immediately after application and negate 90% of the total damage.

It’s not rocket surgery.

It is actually a simple fact of logic and congruent comparison.

LordByron.8369:

I would really start halving condition duration food in WWW

I completely agree. As soon as they remove all condition clears from the game, because as of now, a hammer wielding soldier geared warrior out damages a dire gear condition bomb engineer.

It blows my mind that there are people out there who think conditions are either A). Perfectly fine or B). Need to be buffed.

It’s called condi-cheese for a reason.

Flytrap.8075:

It’s called condi-cheese for a reason.

In the past they said the earth was flat therefor the earth was flat at that time.

Tim.6450:

Flytrap.8075:

It’s called condi-cheese for a reason.

In the past they said the earth was flat therefor the earth was flat at that time.

Yeah, the WvW community’s views on conditions are completely comparable to the flat Earth model. Queue eye-roll.

I’m looking forward to your thesis on how GW2 is essentially Hitler’s Germany, should be a good read.

Flytrap.8075:

Tim.6450:

Flytrap.8075:

It’s called condi-cheese for a reason.

In the past they said the earth was flat therefor the earth was flat at that time.

Yeah, the WvW community’s views on conditions are completely comparable to the flat Earth model. Queue eye-roll.

Care to explain how it’s not?

I have seen people maining every single profession saying that conditions are fine as-is. Clearly, they aren’t all condition-build users themselves (given that Guardian conditions suck horridly and Eles aren’t a whole lot better). These people have learned what condition applications to dodge, how to use their cleanses properly, or recognize that weakness to conditions is simply a tradeoff they made with their build, as they did not take the options they had available. These represent the more learned players, as they took the time to learn.

Condition builds are not some magical thing that you can’t defend against. You can do so pretty easily, in fact. But they require a different approach than many people think they take. Clearly, there are lots of people who have learned what approach this requires. Try becoming one of them.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Condition builds are not some magical thing that you can’t defend against. You can do so pretty easily, in fact. But they require a different approach than many people think they take. Clearly, there are lots of people who have learned what approach this requires. Try becoming one of them.

I like how everyone who is defending conditions in this thread acts like anyone who is complaining is just some noob who wandered into WvW and doesn’t want to take condition removal. You act as if people who want conditions to be changed or nerfed are running around with pure glass builds with nothing in mind except uber leet maximum damages and that’s simply not the case.

Let me tell you a little secret: condition removal is mandatory; anyone who takes any aspect of WvW seriously, both zerging or roaming, realizes this. If a build can’t invest in condition removal through a heal skill or slotting certain utilities, you can bet your kitten that they’re going to take whatever traits they can find that give them access to condition removal.

Now, guess what? Condition removal is finite. You can always dodge a backstab and no class needs to invest in any traits, utilities, or weapon sets in order to have access to dodging. Furthermore, you’re allowed two dodges from the get-go and your endurance bar fills relatively quickly. However, with conditions, if your condition removal is on cooldown and they’re reapplied to you during that duration, you’re generally kittened.

It honestly baffles me that ANet would nerf critical damage when condition bunker builds have already been thriving in WvW and sPvP.

EDIT: Based on your signature, you main a Necromancer. You’re obviously not biased in any way whatsoever.

Flytrap.8075:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Condition builds are not some magical thing that you can’t defend against. You can do so pretty easily, in fact. But they require a different approach than many people think they take. Clearly, there are lots of people who have learned what approach this requires. Try becoming one of them.

I like how everyone who is defending conditions in this thread acts like anyone who is complaining is just some noob who wandered into WvW and doesn’t want to take condition removal. You act as if people who want conditions to be changed or nerfed are running around with pure glass builds with nothing in mind except uber leet maximum damages and that’s simply not the case.

Let me tell you a little secret: condition removal is mandatory; anyone who takes any aspect of WvW seriously, both zerging or roaming, realizes this. If a build can’t invest in condition removal through a heal skill or slotting certain utilities, you can bet your kitten that they’re going to take whatever traits they can find that give them access to condition removal.

Now, guess what? Condition removal is finite. You can always dodge a backstab and no class needs to invest in any traits, utilities, or weapon sets in order to have access to dodging. Furthermore, you’re allowed two dodges from the get-go and your endurance bar fills relatively quickly. However, with conditions, if your condition removal is on cooldown and they’re reapplied to you during that duration, you’re generally kittened.

It honestly baffles me that ANet would nerf critical damage when condition bunker builds have already been thriving in WvW and sPvP.

And thank you for proving my point. Nowhere did I say that people weren’t bringing condition removal. I stated that some folks have learned to use it correctly. Your own comments have clearly shown that you do not understand the correct approach to dealing with conditions.

Hint: just like power builds, condition builds have the big attacks to avoid. The difference is that if you fail to avoid an attack, you can still cleanse it to drastically reduce its effects.

For example, a condition necro has 5 skills (out of 20) to avoid under normal circumstances: Grasping Dead, Enfeebling Blood, Reaper’s Mark, Doom, and Signet of Spite. A stunbreak (which you should be carrying) can substitute for avoiding Doom and Reaper’s Mark. It’s not uncommon for them to be chained together, so your stunbreak can nullify two of those skills with good play. Signet of Spite on its own will not kill you, but it does make cleansing difficult. Grasping Dead and Enfeebling Blood do a lot of damage, but cleansing the bleed will not only remove their damage, but also quite a bit more from other skills (such as Mark of Blood and scepter auto).

So, we have the need for a stunbreak, one cleanse, and one dodge to nullify large amounts of damage from a condition necro. Given most builds are running these, doesn’t seem that difficult to handle now, is it? I run without stunbreaks even and never have an issue with another necro, though that is partly due to class design allowing me to survive immense amounts of condition damage without cleansing or avoiding. I would not reccommend it if you played any other class, and hard CC is a massive weakness for me.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Your own comments have clearly shown that you do not understand the correct approach to dealing with conditions.

Hint: just like power builds, condition builds have the big attacks to avoid. The difference is that if you fail to avoid an attack, you can still cleanse it to drastically reduce its effects.

The pure condescension in your posts is palpable.

I’m not some random PvE farmer that wandered into PvP game-modes by accident. The majority of my playtime has been spent in WvW on a variety of professions and I’ve been in the top 500 on the leaderboards for sPvP Team Arena. My opinions are based on my experiences and they can’t simply be dismissed by saying “Lulz l2play”.

You can’t act like dodging attacks from power builds is the same as dodging attacks from condition builds because it’s simply not true. Yes, you can dodge Signet of Spite. Yes, I still have my condition removal available to me. However, my condition removal is finite whereas your ability to apply conditions to me is unlimited.

At least when I dodge a backstab or a warrior burst skill, it actually means something. When you dodge a power build’s key ability, you outplayed them and they know it. When you dodge against a condition build, they just go along with it and apply more conditions.

1v1 conditions builds are strong unless you build to counter them be -% condi runes/food and/or a stability heavy stunlocking build.

dont let us get our "burst" rotation in or cleanse right after our huge "burst" to negate the extra damage ticks.

I know this does not apply to all classes, to those who dont have the ability to clear conditions well, most of the time they can stealth/blink/dash away to reset.

Flytrap.8075:

You can’t act like dodging attacks from power builds is the same as dodging attacks from condition builds because it’s simply not true. Yes, you can dodge Signet of Spite. Yes, I still have my condition removal available to me. However, my condition removal is finite whereas your ability to apply conditions to me is unlimited.

At least when I dodge a backstab or a warrior burst skill, it actually means something. When you dodge a power build’s key ability, you outplayed them and they know it. When you dodge against a condition build, they just go along with it and apply more conditions.

Actually, you can. You dodge a Warrior burst skill? Great, they can still hit you with any of a number of other skills. Their ability to hit you with direct damage is unlimited. You dodge a Power build’s big hit? They just go along with it and hit you more.

There is no difference in how to fight against them. You dodge a condition build’s big skill, you just out-played them, and they know it. However, just like most power builds, they keep going and try to get you with something else. In both cases, eventually, they will get you with something big and bring you down—assuming you don’t manage to do that first.

This is especially true with necros, who have no option but to stick in the fight until its end. If you avoid/mitigate a thief’s burst, they will usually back off and try again once their initiative/cooldowns are back. Necros can’t do that. If their big hits get negated, they have to continue the fight anwyway. Perhaps this is where your misconceptions come from? You think “oh, he’s not backing off, he must be dishing out a ton of damage” when in reality, it’s because backing off negates their purpose, or they are simply incapable of such a feat.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Flytrap.8075:

You can’t act like dodging attacks from power builds is the same as dodging attacks from condition builds because it’s simply not true. Yes, you can dodge Signet of Spite. Yes, I still have my condition removal available to me. However, my condition removal is finite whereas your ability to apply conditions to me is unlimited.

At least when I dodge a backstab or a warrior burst skill, it actually means something. When you dodge a power build’s key ability, you outplayed them and they know it. When you dodge against a condition build, they just go along with it and apply more conditions.

Actually, you can. You dodge a Warrior burst skill? Great, they can still hit you with any of a number of other skills. Their ability to hit you with direct damage is unlimited. You dodge a Power build’s big hit? They just go along with it and hit you more.

There is no difference in how to fight against them. You dodge a condition build’s big skill, you just out-played them, and they know it. However, just like most power builds, they keep going and try to get you with something else. In both cases, eventually, they will get you with something big and bring you down—assuming you don’t manage to do that first.

This is especially true with necros, who have no option but to stick in the fight until its end. If you avoid/mitigate a thief’s burst, they will usually back off and try again once their initiative/cooldowns are back. Necros can’t do that. If their big hits get negated, they have to continue the fight anwyway. Perhaps this is where your misconceptions come from? You think “oh, he’s not backing off, he must be dishing out a ton of damage” when in reality, it’s because backing off negates their purpose, or they are simply incapable of such a feat.

When you’re fighting a Thief, is it his 1k autos that kill you or that 8k backstab? Also, you didn’t need to spec into a certain trait line or slot specific utility skills to avoid their damage; it’s freely given to you through your endurance bar, whereas I need to specifically build for condition removal.

I’m not even going to bother with the latter portion of your post because profession design philosophy has scant to do with the current state of conditions and I can’t for the life of me figure out what your last sentence even means.