Guild Wars 2

i find that engineer is a strong profession but not OP. You have many different viable builds and for me turrets (which are quite dumb ) are not the stronger ones. For example, after last change i find that HGH 2 elixir toolkit with rabid and pistol pistol is really strong and with 3 elixir you can really clean alot of condi . If you look at CD , even if you can clean 1 condi a time , you can clean up to 12 condition for minutes , it is really good ( i use elixir H , B and S )

One of the most problematic traits for me is Protection Injection. It’s virtually impossible to set up a burst without unloading into Protection since most bursts bring one stun or another to the table. I think that trait could do with a cool down increase, say from 5 to 10 or even 12 seconds. Right now this trait acts as a crutch and makes not paying attention to dodges way too forgiving.

Now its a common claim that Engineers have access to very few viable stun breakers. Both ToL winning Engineer builds however did not use Protection Injection. This shows that there is room for the profession at high level of play even without that particular trait.

As for Incendiary Powder I think the real problem is Balthazar runes. A 75% increase in burning duration (with 6 points into the Explosives line) is clearly broken. A 7 seconds burning duration from an untelegraphed skill shouldn’t be possible at all.

The conquest game mode definitely exacerbates the turret Engineer problem. The moment you can kite and are not in a hurry you can counter the build quite easily. That said, I’m not sure if a turret Engineer is any more annoying than say a celestial Elementalist. Killing a decent celestial Elementalist in a 1 on 1 in a fast fashion is virtually impossible. And similar to the turret Engineer the celestial Elementalist has some killing power that builds up over time through Burning, Might stacks and hard hitting Fire Grabs. Facing alone a turret Engineer or a celestial Elementalist on a capture point usually ends in a stalemate. I think this makes it obvious why those builds, especially the turret Engineer, are disproportionally powerful in solo queue: because of random team compositions and player ability it’s almost impossible to direct your damage where it is supposed to be.

Finally I’d like to add that nowadays I play pretty much only my Engineer. So I definitely don’t want the profession out of the window. I’d just like to see the broken elements fixed or changed.

engineer’s turrets are also problematic imo.

we’ve all seen the complaints against turret engies who pick a point, lay down crate and utility turrets, and then nest themselves on point- and i think we can all agree that it’s not exactly a healthy build, but i really think the turret issue extends past turret builds thanks to the crate elite.

crate is an extremely strong elite to the point where it’s three minute cooldown doesn’t give much if any reason to make any second guesses in taking it, and there’s no denying that; crate supports engineer’s area control role immaculately. the issue with it arises primarily from the turrets. the deal with the turrets is simply that they’re way too survivable thanks to how they follow building/inanimate object damage rules: they’re completely immune to critical hits and condition damage. this toughness is stupidly artificial.

Aye, if I’m running a power build, I can dislodge a noob turret engineer.

If I’m running a condition build, that noob engineer is a pain in the butt as I can’t take out his turrets very quickly.

That is frustrating.

The biggest frustration though is that it lets such a low skill floor have such a large effect in the current sPvP format.

I’m a fan of, regardless of class, Player_Skill == Level_of_Effect.

Sure, the effects from each class/build/etc. can be different … but their level of overall effectiveness should be similar based on the skill of the player playing them.

I do not find someone who find a spot, casts 3 utilities and their elite and then runs around in circles pressing 2,3,4,5 and then auto-attack spamming as a very high level of player skill. As such, I don’t think it should be as effective as it is.

I’m not sure how to change that as the biggest issue is the ability to summon a large number of autonomous foes that behave largely the same regardless of how good/bad their owner is … and I don’t see engineer turrets going anywhere (nor other “pets”).

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

One of the most problematic traits for me is Protection Injection. It’s virtually impossible to set up a burst without unloading into Protection since most bursts bring one stun or another to the table. I think that trait could do with a cool down increase, say from 5 to 10 or even 12 seconds. Right now this trait acts as a crutch and makes not paying attention to dodges way too forgiving.

Compared to Tempest Defense, Mirror of Anguish, Reaper’s Protection, last Stand, and Shared anguish, all of which will 100%, totally and completely negate your CC or even cause it to damage or CC you, the one you exclaim as OP is the one that negates a small percent of damage?

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

Now its a common claim that Engineers have access to very few viable stun breakers. Both ToL winning Engineer builds however did not use Protection Injection. This shows that there is room for the profession at high level of play even without that particular trait.

That is absolutely not true. As a player who has been active in the community since release, this is something that has not been said in over a year do to changes in utility goggles, rocket boots, and healing mist. If you believe anyone goes around promoting this idea, then you are entirely too out of touch with the profession and community to broach the subject at all in my opinion.

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

As for Incendiary Powder I think the real problem is Balthazar runes. A 75% increase in burning duration (with 6 points into the Explosives line) is clearly broken. A 7 seconds burning duration from an untelegraphed skill shouldn’t be possible at all.

Well those runes are part of the problem, I wouldn’t call them the real problem. Everyone across the board had despised the passive and unseeable effects of this skill since day one. In my opinion, is they would simply revert the pistol auto attack to its original form, they could justify changing this skill entirely. Although in the over all, I feel some players complaints about this skill are completely and selfishly irrational given the amount of “on crit” damage traits on every profession.

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

The conquest game mode definitely exacerbates the turret Engineer problem. The moment you can kite and are not in a hurry you can counter the build quite easily.

The fact that you actually believe that “turret engineer” is a “problem”, you have already lost the your credibility in my personal opinion.

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

Finally I’d like to add that nowadays I play pretty much only my Engineer. So I definitely don’t want the profession out of the window. I’d just like to see the broken elements fixed or changed.

I do not think “broken” means what you think it means. Broken is how magnet and rocket boots literally do not function at a 50% rate or more since the last update. Everything you stated here, is arguable opinion. If you seriously feel you can use “your opinion of somethings negative aspect”, interchangeably with “literally does not function”, makes it very very hard to take you seriously.

dancingmonkey.4902:

TheDevice.2751:

Engineers are also the most finely tailored class in the game. They get so much attention its disgusting. It’s like vomitable. They are constantly being touched-up while other classes suffer real problems. Eventually, there will be absolutely nothing an engineer can think of complaining about. The issues engi’s bring up are like little snobby rich kids screaming that their chocolate cake didn’t have sprinkles on it.

Care to elaborate or explain or list a comparison to other profession on how they “get attention” ??

I mean, we all know your simply incorrect, but we would like you to lay out your misconceptions, so we know which route to take to educate you….we all know all you
really want is :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

oh wow “we all know you’re incorrect..” you must know everyone ever.

Simple comparison (the easiest thing you could have challenged me on)

SoV and A.E.D. – This update SoV got fixed (not buffed, fixed to allow it to actually use all 25 stacks by a full group of 5.) A.E.D. Got buffed. Sound legit? I’m sure it does.

Even by not having to list every single skill I can prove how much more work goes into the engineer than other classes say the necro or ranger or even warrior. The very fact that they have 100000 more skills than the others. All those skills take the bulk of attention from the balance team as well as the devs in general for overseeing bugs, animations, and core functionality.

Necromancers minions dont work.

We have like half the alloted skills available to use and an engi and yet we still are nowhere near as tuned and up to date as the engineer.

And I LOVEEEEEEE that you put that video about being nerfed. That just showed how absolutely uninformed you are about any other class, specifically the necro who must hold the nerf championship cup for most nerfs ever. Do some research on ACTUAL nerfs after being buffed… like when we got dhuumfire. We actually do less condition deeps than before that patch. Less than before the patch (lol we are weaker now than we were during the time we asked for buffs and got dhuumfire.)

If you really want to go down this road I will im just not going to do it all right now.

Incendiary powder needs to be nerfed. Necros had their on crit proc burn removed and so should this one.

It’s too passive and does too much damage. It’s essentially a perma burn during a fight and you do not have enough cleansing to deal with it. There is ZERO animation or way of telling that you will be hit by this burn. If an engineer wants to do burns then he needs to stick with bombs, offhand pistol, or rocket boots which is PLENTY of burning.

There’s no need for this zero skill crutch of a trait. My main is an engineer and playing condi engineer is so easy that I refuse to use it any more and switched over to an SD build.

Aberrant.6749:

TheDevice.2751:

Frenk.5917:

TheDevice.2751:

Khenzy.9348:

As long as Engineers are as weak as they are against conditions, they wont be as OP as you claim them to be.

Elixer C
Toss Elixer C
Cleansing Burst
Drop Andtidote
Tosss Elixer R
Fumigate
Cleaning Formula 409
Transmute
Automated Response

What?

Do you even play engi? Fumigate doesn’t even remove conditions on the user. Did you just linked random skills?

I’d totally love to write a long and exhaustive post on how little you know about engineer (I’m not being rude, it’s just the plain truth) but it would take too much of my time and expert players already know what I would have written.

@Eurantien: yep, you listed the things engineers are good at, but you are ignoring the things engineers suck at. Like removing conditions, and breaking stuns, or gaining stability.

Everytime is the same old story: people making biased assumptions on everything. I don’t know why I’m even posting on the forums, I should just stop and give up on hoping people to show some form of objectivity.

the guy before you already mentioned fumigate and lets hear how much you can come up with that will show exactly how little i know. I’d like to see the lengthy post man

Oh wait.. it just ended at fumigate didn’kitten

Engineers are also the most finely tailored class in the game. They get so much attention its disgusting. It’s like vomitable. They are constantly being touched-up while other classes suffer real problems. Eventually, there will be absolutely nothing an engineer can think of complaining about. The issues engi’s bring up are like little snobby rich kids screaming that their chocolate cake didn’t have sprinkles on it.

I mean honestly, conditions? That’s your major issue? And apparently you can’t run certain clears because they’re just “too difficult” to use. Not only are there clears built in to your class but I already said that runes and sigils are available for condition defense. Yet thats not good enough.

There is having access to them, and then also having reasonable access to them without destroying your build/role in a group. Eng is very vulnerable to cc and conds and were designed that way. If you try to be stronger against conds you wind up giving up too much and are weaker overall.

I would suggest that you go play an eng in pvp for a while to understand the basics of a class before coming onto the forums and talking about it.

P.S. Cleansing burst and antidote are mutually exclusive while they both technically exist, you can’t take both.

You know what’s funny? I said pretty much the same thing you did, and they just didn’t answer. He’ll jump to w/e they feel is the weakest argument and pound on it and ignore the meat of the point the other person made. I wonder if they are in politics…

I’m fine with being a little weak to conditions, but they overnerfed the one trait that was supposed to allow you to win vs condi classes. I want build weaknesses, not class weaknesses. Before this patch Warrior was a good example of this. Right now though the changes seem to have hurt perviously viable builds.

Even taking 409 isn’t all that amazing against conditions, it just doesn’t die instantly to them.

EvilSardine.9635:

Incendiary powder needs to be nerfed. Necros had their on crit proc burn removed and so should this one.

It’s too passive and does too much damage. It’s essentially a perma burn during a fight and you do not have enough cleansing to deal with it. There is ZERO animation or way of telling that you will be hit by this burn. If an engineer wants to do burns then he needs to stick with bombs, offhand pistol, or rocket boots which is PLENTY of burning.

There’s no need for this zero skill crutch of a trait. My main is an engineer and playing condi engineer is so easy that I refuse to use it any more and switched over to an SD build.

Eng has always had IP. It’s to make up for the rubbish pistol damage (etc.). Necro was later given an additional condition (burning). Necro had very strong conditions before this. Very different situations. Both have been nerfed multiple times regardless though. 4s base on a 10s cd is now “essentially” perma burning I take it?

From your post history it seems you main a warrior.

EvilSardine.9635:

I main thief and I am against this. When I’m in stealth and trying to land a back stab on a warrior I should be able to just spam 1 until it eventually hits. I’m pretty lazy and don’t pay attention to blocks like shields or aegis so as long as I can just keep mashing my number 1 I’ll be happy.

I’m pretty content with playing D/P because I can basically just do blinding powder > heart seeker, and back stab and win even against good players. I normally just farm PvE stuff and using this combo makes it easy.

Please don’t make it so blocking reveals.

Just saying you main a class you don’t like and want nerfed isn’t a good way of going about things.

SD isn’t a viable build in higher levels of gameplay. It’s easier than cond in hotjoin against people that don’t know how to avoid the cc though. Eng isn’t seen much in tournies as is, but yea, nerf eng and IP because wars have problems vs them in hotjoin/spvp >.>

TheDevice.2751:

dancingmonkey.4902:

TheDevice.2751:

Engineers are also the most finely tailored class in the game. They get so much attention its disgusting. It’s like vomitable. They are constantly being touched-up while other classes suffer real problems. Eventually, there will be absolutely nothing an engineer can think of complaining about. The issues engi’s bring up are like little snobby rich kids screaming that their chocolate cake didn’t have sprinkles on it.

Care to elaborate or explain or list a comparison to other profession on how they “get attention” ??

I mean, we all know your simply incorrect, but we would like you to lay out your misconceptions, so we know which route to take to educate you….we all know all you
really want is :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

oh wow “we all know you’re incorrect..” you must know everyone ever.

Simple comparison (the easiest thing you could have challenged me on)

SoV and A.E.D. – This update SoV got fixed (not buffed, fixed to allow it to actually use all 25 stacks by a full group of 5.) A.E.D. Got buffed. Sound legit? I’m sure it does.

Even by not having to list every single skill I can prove how much more work goes into the engineer than other classes say the necro or ranger or even warrior. The very fact that they have 100000 more skills than the others. All those skills take the bulk of attention from the balance team as well as the devs in general for overseeing bugs, animations, and core functionality.

Necromancers minions dont work.

We have like half the alloted skills available to use and an engi and yet we still are nowhere near as tuned and up to date as the engineer.

And I LOVEEEEEEE that you put that video about being nerfed. That just showed how absolutely uninformed you are about any other class, specifically the necro who must hold the nerf championship cup for most nerfs ever. Do some research on ACTUAL nerfs after being buffed… like when we got dhuumfire. We actually do less condition deeps than before that patch. Less than before the patch (lol we are weaker now than we were during the time we asked for buffs and got dhuumfire.)

If you really want to go down this road I will im just not going to do it all right now.

Okay, you went off on some rant that makes no sense, nor has anything to do with the topic.

You still didn’t offer once iota of proof that the devs cater to the engineers as you exclaim. You irrationally claim some bias, as if they ever gave us decent condi clear, fixed hobo sacks, fixed magnet, fixed rocket boots. As if the never destroyed kit refinement, or nerf 100 blades.

You simply went into some off topic rant about necros, and in some warped manner, presume that backs up your claim. please offer some actually proof that the devs favor engineers in some way.

Lets start this off the right way,

I speak only for pvp. pve/wvw I dont give a poop about.

Engi’s are strong. No doubt. We are jack of all trades, a utility for all situations. But we cannot take it all. we have a CLEARY defined weakness. Thats why we are not OP.
————————————————————————————————————
Conditions. Our cleanse in a tournament build without sacrificing anything we can get 2(heal turret 15-20s cd) 1 from passive (15s cd) and Eg 5 removes 1 (20s cd).

Thats 4. wooooo 15-20 seconds for 4 conditions removed. Rangers traited correctly (power rangers own fault for not taking it) you can get 3 every 10s. Warriors/eles don’t even get me started. Mesmers can get a TON of condition cleanse but sacrifice things for them. Thiefs in d/p can spam it but it isn’t instant. (6/0/1/0/6 build, basically 1 point in shadow arts)

Want to know why engis are not in spammed in every team? Necromancers. Look at good fights vs abjured. Abjured will dominate them. Not from skill level but because five gauge and toker will get decimated by nos. Simple as that.

Engi utility? Dont get me started the current engi build is 0 skill spammy and has limited utility. Remember the old teldo build? THAT has utility.
The current build you spam , then when taking pressure block run and repeat. You can time pulls and immobs with a team but thats nothing.

Flamethrower , Elix gun, and Bomb kit. Add rifle.
That has utility. Aoe might stacking, able to stack stealth for up to 12s. can blind, push back in aoe area. can still aoe cripple (higher cd) aoe burn (screw grenades). Only issue with the build? Cannot 1v1 nades build nor can it do ranged pressure.

NERF NADES. Then engis can go back to skill based utility usage not the spammy nature it is now.

Also I hate hard counters. The necro>engi has been along far longer than the thief>mesmer engi>thief crap. In fact its been around since nearly beta.

JinDaVikk.7291:

NERF NADES. Then engis can go back to skill based utility usage not the spammy nature it is now.

If they nerf Nades, then engie will have to have more diverse condi removal access. As there is no way they can reliably survive at shorter ranges without better condi removal. You will be eaten alive by condis in a teamfight if you’re consistently sitting at 600 to 900 range away from the point.

JinDaVikk.7291:

Also I hate hard counters. The necro>engi has been along far longer than the thief>mesmer engi>thief crap. In fact its been around since nearly beta.

I personally don’t because I think it promotes good rotational skills and allows classes to shine in certain areas, but maybe I’m wrong.

Aberrant.6749:

Eng has always had IP. It’s to make up for the rubbish pistol damage (etc.). Necro was later given an additional condition (burning). Necro had very strong conditions before this. Very different situations. Both have been nerfed multiple times regardless though. 4s base on a 10s cd is now “essentially” perma burning I take it?

From your post history it seems you main a warrior.

Nope. I main engineer and the other class that I play after that is warrior. Engi can put out more condis than necros to be honest.

With Balthazar runes you can have 100% condi duration after foods and traits. It turns that into an 8 second burn. 80% of the time you’re taking massive damage from burning due to a trait that is passive and takes zero skill to pull off and also is completely impossible to see coming.

Condi engineer has a low skill cap and other condi engineers can say otherwise but all the ones that have moved onto higher skill cap builds know the truth.

TheDevice.2751:

Lifestealer.4910:

Even if engi was OP, they still require more skill to play than all of the current and previous OP builds, so i am perfectly ok with this.

I love how more options turn into “more skill”. Thats total garbage. If you just have non-stop skills at your disposal and a oh-crap button for every single situation thinkable doesn’t mean you’re a good player because you actually did that skill at that time.

Having more options and an array of skills at your disposal is like saying “hey a helicopter is harder to fly than a paper plane because helicopters have more buttons.” Take the necromancer as the paper airplane and hop on to see how far you can fly… and how easy it is to do so.

Bad logic. Bad cover-up. Its just disingenuous and quite frankly gets old to people who see right through that crap.

Agreed. They need a cool down on kit swapping. Kind of bs they can flop between kits whenever they choose with only a 1 second cool down to going back to the original kit. Even Elementalists have a cool down on their attunements. Think if they only had a 1 second cool down on those >.>

“But… but, then they would have to manage their skills!!!” I know, imagine that.

EvilSardine.9635:

Aberrant.6749:

Eng has always had IP. It’s to make up for the rubbish pistol damage (etc.). Necro was later given an additional condition (burning). Necro had very strong conditions before this. Very different situations. Both have been nerfed multiple times regardless though. 4s base on a 10s cd is now “essentially” perma burning I take it?

From your post history it seems you main a warrior.

Nope. I main engineer and the other class that I play after that is warrior. Engi can put out more condis than necros to be honest.

With Balthazar runes you can have 100% condi duration after foods and traits. It turns that into an 8 second burn. 80% of the time you’re taking massive damage from burning due to a trait that is passive and takes zero skill to pull off and also is completely impossible to see coming.

Condi engineer has a low skill cap and other condi engineers can say otherwise but all the ones that have moved onto higher skill cap builds know the truth.

Necro has far more control over conds. A half awake Necro >>>>>>>> Eng. It’s a very hard counter.

Food… so you’re talking about wvw balance… yea… wvw is imbalanced in far more serious ways than any individual class. In wvw cond eng is useless. The aoe cleansing that goes on is redic. You’ll wind up eating far more damage from retal than you will be able to put out. But again… wvw, so who cares.

SD is extremely easy, far easier than 3x kit cond. It’s cc->spam toolbelt. Takes all of 5 mins to learn. It’s too foos which is why it fails. Dodge/block/reflect/stability/whatever the cc and it’s rubbish. Compared to 3x kit which has to control the opponent while staying on point while playing a symphony on their keyboard… it’s not even close.

Vanthian.9267:

TheDevice.2751:

Lifestealer.4910:

Even if engi was OP, they still require more skill to play than all of the current and previous OP builds, so i am perfectly ok with this.

I love how more options turn into “more skill”. Thats total garbage. If you just have non-stop skills at your disposal and a oh-crap button for every single situation thinkable doesn’t mean you’re a good player because you actually did that skill at that time.

Having more options and an array of skills at your disposal is like saying “hey a helicopter is harder to fly than a paper plane because helicopters have more buttons.” Take the necromancer as the paper airplane and hop on to see how far you can fly… and how easy it is to do so.

Bad logic. Bad cover-up. Its just disingenuous and quite frankly gets old to people who see right through that crap.

Agreed. They need a cool down on kit swapping. Kind of bs they can flop between kits whenever they choose with only a 1 second cool down to going back to the original kit. Even Elementalists have a cool down on their attunements. Think if they only had a 1 second cool down on those >.>

“But… but, then they would have to manage their skills!!!” I know, imagine that.

Then they would need to allow eng to be able to choose their toolbelt skills like ele gets to choose their utilities. But now you have two classes that are far too alike (not good from a game design pov).

I like my ele since she can tailor her utilities for the situation, but the class is more rotational. I like my eng because it’s more free flowing, but that comes at the price of me having to just deal with whatever toolbelt is given to me (among other things like ele’s cleansing, access to certain boons, etc.). Both have their upsides and downsides. It’s comparing apples and oranges and it’s fine as is.

Aberrant.6749:

But again… wvw, so who cares.

Many people do. In fact, many more people play WvW than PvP since PvP is pretty stale. There’s around 500 people who are playing PvP at the moment compared to many thousands in WvW.

As an Engineer main, the only thing that I agree needs a nerf is IP. Increase that C/D to 20+ seconds please, thanks.

Anybody complaining about anything else just needs to get good.

Engineers have access literally everything in this game.
And I never seen any telegraphed attacks from them at all. Everything happens just instantly.

I really want to see Anet do something about this profession because it’s really unfair to play against and unsatisfying to see a profession can get all this stuff for free.

EvilSardine.9635:

Aberrant.6749:

But again… wvw, so who cares.

Many people do. In fact, many more people play WvW than PvP since PvP is pretty stale. There’s around 500 people who are playing PvP at the moment compared to many thousands in WvW.

since when are balthazar runes engies a problem in wvw? or 800-900 dmg per second from a burn “massive” damage. if you really play an sd engie you get more than that from autoattacking alone.

SpecterMAT.7306:

Engineers have access literally everything in this game.
And I never seen any telegraphed attacks from them at all. Everything happens just instantly.

I really want to see Anet do something about this profession because it’s really unfair to play against and unsatisfying to see a profession can get all this stuff for free.

This is clearly a get good issue if you think they have no telegraphed attack. Either that or your need to wear glasses. Grenades, magnet, pry bar, grenade barrage, jump shot, net shot, ANY BOMBS, static shot etc and the list goes on. The only thing that doesn’t really have a telegraph is overcharged shot but that is reasonable since the skill has major drawback to the engineer.

Engineers can’t have everything either so idk what you on about. If anything warriors and elementalist has everything, they literally fill in most of their weakness in one build, good luck trying to achieve that with any of the meta engi build.

SpecterMAT.7306:

Engineers have access literally everything in this game.

Not factually true, but that is completely irrelevant anyway. Because you can only fit a portion of that into any build.

SpecterMAT.7306:

And I never seen any telegraphed attacks from them at all. Everything happens just instantly.

I thought we were trying to have a reasonable discussion here? your not being reasonable, which is evident by your untrue claims.

What skills are you specifically claiming have no telegraphs?

SpecterMAT.7306:

I really want to see Anet do something about this profession because it’s really unfair to play against and unsatisfying to see a profession can get all this stuff for free.

How do they get it for free? What does that even mean?

So tell us this. How many hours playing an engineer do you have, that allowed you to develop this expertise?

Chicago Jack.5647:

Shockwave.1230:

These three utilities are so effective that VeeWee is the only engi capable of running without them, because of frandliness levels being off the charts.

Everyone complains about elixer s, nades, toolkit. Buuuut the real op build is gadget mortar engie.

That sounds fun:-D

Skyhammer, Stealth Engineer (elixir toolbelt), Toolkit pull onto glass floor engineer just broke while stealthed.

Just mean.

And another one of the many examples why I hate that map :-p

Engineer isn’t OP … it just allows for tons of creativity …like Mesmer … which people complained about forever till they learned how to figure out the real one … and confusion got nerfed to hell so they could survive blindly cleaving illusions.

When someone can show me an example where there are 0 options/counterplay then I’ll listen to shouts of “OP”.

Tbh condi ele OP

TheDevice.2751:

Lifestealer.4910:

Even if engi was OP, they still require more skill to play than all of the current and previous OP builds, so i am perfectly ok with this.

I love how more options turn into “more skill”. Thats total garbage. If you just have non-stop skills at your disposal and a oh-crap button for every single situation thinkable doesn’t mean you’re a good player because you actually did that skill at that time.

Having more options and an array of skills at your disposal is like saying “hey a helicopter is harder to fly than a paper plane because helicopters have more buttons.” Take the necromancer as the paper airplane and hop on to see how far you can fly… and how easy it is to do so.

Bad logic. Bad cover-up. Its just disingenuous and quite frankly gets old to people who see right through that crap.

Ah, your logic have some flaw, this example is bad.
Techinally Helicopter has way more mass and weight than a paper plane, so it really is much harder to fly than a paper plane. Also paper plain requires you to just throw it to succeed, while for helicopter, I fear people like you will actually drive it because you probably never drove one before, yet assuming it’s easy to control.

Are we really still talking about Helicopters and Paper Airplanes? I feel like this has turned into a troll party, lol.

Shockwave.1230:

Tool Kit, grenade kit, and elixir S should be run by any engineer that knows what they’re doing. These 3 utilities offer everything anyone could ask for in PvP, except boon removal.

and stability and condremove and mobility

in other words it has nothing thats really important…

Engi got nerfed like no one else in this game. I talk about real heavy build destroying overnerfs and jes plural.

They had godmode after release but no one complained because no one played them and the most were just bad. Now they are just garbage way to much effort for minor results and way too much sacrifices. How you even dare to cry about a profession without serious access to stability and condremove (both things they actually had after release..)

most of you cry about the kit-heavy builds with 26 skills that spam turrets all over the place and can escape at will with roketboots and elixir s.

Its not even the cele amulet, rabid condi engis are extremely hard to kill and can in a lot of cases easily 2 or 3v1. Its always been the case. I guess you could say this of any well played class, but it seems to be more so with engi.

The only engi build that needs to be downed down is the turret engi because is a toxic build for the game (spvp side)

MarkPhilips.5169:

The only engi build that needs to be downed down is the turret engi because is a toxic build for the game (spvp side)

It’s really worth noting that Turrets aren’t very good for anywhere in the game except low-tier sPvP. They’re too static for most parts of the game…but guess which one plays straight to the strengths of Turrets?

That’s right. sPvP. Because when your goal is to hold a point, a set of skills that specialize in area denial, are primarily traited into via tanky traitlines, and can attempt to make up for the user’s otherwise lacking offensive power by number of attacks…well, you get the point, right? The build does well when the Turreteer and their target are both within Turret range. If you get the user outside that range, or destroy the Turrets, they’re going to be crippled.

In short: Stop bloody calling for nerfs to a largely ineffective skillset because you can’t be bothered to learn to adapt to it, and instead call for a game mode that would place less emphasis on anything so perfectly-suited to a single skillset.

Anymras.5729:

MarkPhilips.5169:

The only engi build that needs to be downed down is the turret engi because is a toxic build for the game (spvp side)

It’s really worth noting that Turrets aren’t very good for anywhere in the game except low-tier sPvP. They’re too static for most parts of the game…but guess which one plays straight to the strengths of Turrets?

That’s right. sPvP. Because when your goal is to hold a point, a set of skills that specialize in area denial, are primarily traited into via tanky traitlines, and can attempt to make up for the user’s otherwise lacking offensive power by number of attacks…well, you get the point, right? The build does well when the Turreteer and their target are both within Turret range. If you get the user outside that range, or destroy the Turrets, they’re going to be crippled.

In short: Stop bloody calling for nerfs to a largely ineffective skillset because you can’t be bothered to learn to adapt to it, and instead call for a game mode that would place less emphasis on anything so perfectly-suited to a single skillset.

This is a general problem with this game. As much as 2/3 of every profession is virtually meaningless outside of SPVP. This because they assume a static defensive position. Seriously, just about every AOE in the game is perfectly fitted to cover a SPVP capture point. Thus they force any enemy on point to either get off or suffer. Where in the rest of the game do you see that being a big deal?

That is absurd. Why would they do that?

It’s been sort of a known thing since power vs condi arguement. Engis have the sustain and mobility to deal with 1vX situations unless it’s a necro. Necros only face stomp engineers cause they have both really good controls and conditions. Engineer, mainly condi engi fall face flat against necromancers because they will easily eat condition application faceroll(They have DS and large Health pool) , using things like Consume conditions as well. Not only that, but necro can transfer those bulks of conditions back to the engineer. Which is mainly why Engi dies to necro, control and conditions.

Power damage =instant but decreases overtime if you do not continue contact with your direct damage. Most of the high damage is dealt at Melee range. Though to seriously put it it wasn’t comparable to conditions because you can’t keep up contact 100% of the time as melee unless the person is Afk or standing still. This is why Zerker LB ranger is considered OP now since RF fires much faster now and will pretty much always hit it’s target if traited with Read The Winds(You can’t side step/move side to side to evade arrows anymore). For consistent high direct damage. The only way to really mitigate/counter this is to have minions body block, LoS/Terrain, or reflect/block AoE.

Condition damage=Overtime but your brick of damage is unleashed in a stream that can’t be blocked, dodged, LoS, or invulnerability mitigation once applied. This means someone can just apply many damaging conditions, kite/ run away. The only counter to this is condition removal, sure well timed condition removal will help you survive much longer but consistent overload will eventually kill you if you do not kill the applicator. In Engineer’s case sustain/Mobility and blocks. Tool tip burning for me on my condi engi’s IP will do 6-8k damage over time if not removed and allowed to tick for its entire duration of 8s(Mind you i run balth runes and 4-6 points in explosives), with a ICD of 10s.

To what Lucentfir was saying. Although I do not disagree with your statement about IP, I do disagree with you statement about blocks, los, and dodges. The skills that apply the conditions can be blocked, dodged, and los. As far as I am concerned, they need to change IP to something else altogether.

The reason necros are so hard counter like to engineers is not due to the necros ability to clear or redirect conditions. It is because engineers have the most limited access to condition clears in usable builds compared to the other professions.

Anymras.5729:

In short: Stop bloody calling for nerfs to a largely ineffective skillset because you can’t be bothered to learn to adapt to it, and instead call for a game mode that would place less emphasis on anything so perfectly-suited to a single skillset.

You don’t even need to change the game mode. Turret engies suck in teamfights because turrets die to cleave, and they’re too static to be of any use as a home point defender. They also become easily overwhelmed in 2v1’s if the 2 players are not absolutely terrible. People just need to realize that any time they afk on a point, there is a numbers advantage somewhere else on the map – this goes for all classes who choose to afk. Instead people run onto the turret engie’s point, hoping to decap it, and then die.

I.E: People are dumb -> People complaining on the forums.

Is it tiring to play against the same stupid, brain-dead spvp farming specs day in and day out? Of course, but they are not good specs, overall, for a reason.

A spirit ranger was way more “scary” than a turret engineer. Simply because they had presence in a teamfight and didn’t have to afk on node to be somewhat effective.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Anymras.5729:

In short: Stop bloody calling for nerfs to a largely ineffective skillset because you can’t be bothered to learn to adapt to it, and instead call for a game mode that would place less emphasis on anything so perfectly-suited to a single skillset.

You don’t even need to change the game mode. Turret engies suck in teamfights because turrets die to cleave, and they’re too static to be of any use as a home point defender. They also become easily overwhelmed in 2v1’s if the 2 players are not absolutely terrible. People just need to realize that any time they afk on a point, there is a numbers advantage somewhere else on the map – this goes for all classes who choose to afk. Instead people run onto the turret engie’s point, hoping to decap it, and then die.

I.E: People are dumb -> People complaining on the forums.

Is it tiring to play against the same stupid, brain-dead spvp farming specs day in and day out? Of course, but they are not good specs, overall, for a reason.

A spirit ranger was way more “scary” than a turret engineer. Simply because they had presence in a teamfight and didn’t have to afk on node to be somewhat effective.

Fair points, but I still think the game mode will be ultimately detrimental to Turrets – they’re unlikely to give them meaty buffs that would make them good in other modes, for fear of making them too good in sPvP. Besides, it’d be nice to have a different mode, I think – could set it apart, maybe actually accomplish that eSport goal.

coglin.1867:

To what Lucentfir was saying. Although I do not disagree with your statement about IP, I do disagree with you statement about blocks, los, and dodges. The skills that apply the conditions can be blocked, dodged, and los. As far as I am concerned, they need to change IP to something else altogether.

The reason necros are so hard counter like to engineers is not due to the necros ability to clear or redirect conditions. It is because engineers have the most limited access to condition clears in usable builds compared to the other professions.

They would need to rebalance the sub par skills that IP is making up for then. I’m not against that though. It would give me another trait slot since I wouldn’t be forced to take IP to deal damage as a cond eng.

It’s the CC + conds together, if it was just one or the other it wouldn’t be as easy for a necro to rotflstomp an eng.

I agree Aberrant, I think taking pistol #1 back to a 4s bleed as it was in the betas, would help out greatly with the issue. As far as removing IP is concerned. Not sure what to say about it in the context of the rifle though.

I wouldn’t say Engineers are overpowered.

It’s annoying as hell when they drop turrets on Tranquility or Orb, or lay them on home, but I respect that kind of foresight/passive defense.

When turrets are on cooldown, most of the Engies I have fought were managable.

I might support your claim if Engineers had better access to stun breakers/stability and condi removal on par with other classes. However, we do not and likely may never have those joys.

Turret engineers are certainly difficult to deal with, but they do not have much of a place in team arenas, and most experienced players in solo arenas can adjust their play accordingly to deal with them.

ejax.5170:

I might support your claim if Engineers had better access to stun breakers/stability and condi removal on par with other classes. However, we do not and likely may never have those joys.

Turret engineers are certainly difficult to deal with, but they do not have much of a place in team arenas, and most experienced players in solo arenas can adjust their play accordingly to deal with them.

wat…? have you seen tournaments lately?

Anymras.5729:

MarkPhilips.5169:

The only engi build that needs to be downed down is the turret engi because is a toxic build for the game (spvp side)

It’s really worth noting that Turrets aren’t very good for anywhere in the game except low-tier sPvP. They’re too static for most parts of the game…but guess which one plays straight to the strengths of Turrets?

There are no tiers in spvp cos there aren’t enough peopel playing. A legendary nr1 Engi pro can be playing in the same team as a brand new player cos of the mismatch. So it affects all players.

TrOtskY.5927:

Anymras.5729:

MarkPhilips.5169:

The only engi build that needs to be downed down is the turret engi because is a toxic build for the game (spvp side)

It’s really worth noting that Turrets aren’t very good for anywhere in the game except low-tier sPvP. They’re too static for most parts of the game…but guess which one plays straight to the strengths of Turrets?

There are no tiers in spvp cos there aren’t enough peopel playing. A legendary nr1 Engi pro can be playing in the same team as a brand new player cos of the mismatch. So it affects all players.

I’m sorry, should I have said ’it’s only good against bad players?’
The idea is the same – if the people know what they’re doing, they’re going to know how to deal with Turrets. It’s not that it doesn’t affect better players…it’s that they actually figure out what to do instead of crying for nerfs the minute they blunder into a Turret nest, and then there’s not really much that the Turret Engineer can do about it but try to put the Turrets in better places.
Either way, if Turrets get nerfed because of sPvP being built around holding points, that just about kills them everywhere else in the game, where they’re already not particularly good.

And then you woke up and realized that about 80% of all utilities and builds are useless accros one another’s gamemode?

You think this is exclusive to turrets? Frankly it is not, and if it is toxic for one side of the game, then why should “but it is bad for all the other parts” be an excuse for it?
I mean in that case, let Minions and Dhuumfire be unnerfed, they were bad in PvE anyway…

GoogleBrandon.5073:

And then you woke up and realized that about 80% of all utilities and builds are useless accros one another’s gamemode?

You think this is exclusive to turrets? Frankly it is not, and if it is toxic for one side of the game, then why should “but it is bad for all the other parts” be an excuse for it?
I mean in that case, let Minions and Dhuumfire be unnerfed, they were bad in PvE anyway…

No, I don’t think it’s exclusive to Turrets. I just don’t think ‘the only sPvP game mode disproportionately rewards exactly what Turrets are good for, and the characterics Turret builds trait heavily into’ is a good reason to nerf them in modes where, well, that’s not the case. If Anet would split their balancing, this wouldn’t be a concern, but I’m pretty sure they’ve stated that they don’t want to…well, except for the time they buffed skill-summoned mob HP in PvE only.
…Which didn’t apply to Turrets, as far as I know. Seemed a bit strange, but it’s probably because they can’t move, so they can’t charge in and get smashed by cleave. I guess that makes sense, somehow?

Don’t know much about the Minions, and can’t recall what nerf they suffered, but I do know that Dhuumfire is a proc effect similar to Incendiary Powder, and equally lacking in meaningful counterplay (as the only counterplay is ’don’t get hit,’ although Dhuumfire does require Death Shroud, giving it at least a modicum of something to be done against it and/or a tell, rather than just being ‘oh, he crit, now I’m on fire’). Incendiary Powder, of course, also received a nerf – and people want more nerfs for it, which I certainly wouldn’t argue with due to that whole ’it’s just going to happen’ aspect.
Turrets do have counterplay. Nerfing them because people don’t want to learn such advanced tactics as ’don’t rush the nest alone,’ ‘drop AoEs on them, they can’t move’ and ‘clear out the Turrets first,’ or even ‘they can’t move, pressure a different point’ just seems ridiculous.
Again, not sure why Minions got nerfed, or even how, but I think this might actually be due to (most) Minions being able to move – purely conjecture, as I’m not attached to Anet in any capacity (which is a good thing, or I’d be yelling at the writers and QA staff). Mobility is a massive asset, and one that Turrets do not possess.

Anymras.5729:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

And then you woke up and realized that about 80% of all utilities and builds are useless accros one another’s gamemode?

You think this is exclusive to turrets? Frankly it is not, and if it is toxic for one side of the game, then why should “but it is bad for all the other parts” be an excuse for it?
I mean in that case, let Minions and Dhuumfire be unnerfed, they were bad in PvE anyway…

No, I don’t think it’s exclusive to Turrets. I just don’t think ‘the only sPvP game mode disproportionately rewards exactly what Turrets are good for, and the characterics Turret builds trait heavily into’ is a good reason to nerf them in modes where, well, that’s not the case. If Anet would split their balancing, this wouldn’t be a concern, but I’m pretty sure they’ve stated that they don’t want to…well, except for the time they buffed skill-summoned mob HP in PvE only.
…Which didn’t apply to Turrets, as far as I know. Seemed a bit strange, but it’s probably because they can’t move, so they can’t charge in and get smashed by cleave. I guess that makes sense, somehow?

Don’t know much about the Minions, and can’t recall what nerf they suffered, but I do know that Dhuumfire is a proc effect similar to Incendiary Powder, and equally lacking in meaningful counterplay (as the only counterplay is ’don’t get hit,’ although Dhuumfire does require Death Shroud, giving it at least a modicum of something to be done against it and/or a tell, rather than just being ‘oh, he crit, now I’m on fire’). Incendiary Powder, of course, also received a nerf – and people want more nerfs for it, which I certainly wouldn’t argue with due to that whole ’it’s just going to happen’ aspect.
Turrets do have counterplay. Nerfing them because people don’t want to learn such advanced tactics as ’don’t rush the nest alone,’ ‘drop AoEs on them, they can’t move’ and ‘clear out the Turrets first,’ or even ‘they can’t move, pressure a different point’ just seems ridiculous.
Again, not sure why Minions got nerfed, or even how, but I think this might actually be due to (most) Minions being able to move – purely conjecture, as I’m not attached to Anet in any capacity (which is a good thing, or I’d be yelling at the writers and QA staff). Mobility is a massive asset, and one that Turrets do not possess.

No worries, I get your frustration… When looking back at the nerfs Warriors, Mesmers, Thieves, Necromancers, Elementalists and Engineers had all over the board, I simply sometimes wonder why, especially since I spent my first year neigh exclusively in PvE and a bit WvWvW

However, the case is that Turrets, although counterable by certain specs, are just generally a pain in the kitten to deal with for certain people or classes… I am capable of playing a Staff Ele, so I am the least likely to even have an issue with them, but I am one of the few who play – of which most never bother swapping classes, and a lot of others do not even have a team to play and coordinate with – thus giving Turret Engineers, although sitting ducks, a huge lead…

Am I fully against it? Well, not really, it could use some tweaking, but in all of my honesty, there should always be a build available for the lower tier so people can taste PvP – however, these builds should not be dominating (think back of Hambow and Dhuumfire Necromancer) – that is my general concern…

Btw, I was not trying to compare Engineer turrets to Minions and Dhuumfire, I could give a perfect example as to how Minions and Turrets differ, and how they could be compared but this is not the time… I was merely giving an example of already lackluster things within a gamemode, while it did get nerfed in the end… When turrets do get nerfed, it will be for all modes… it is just the way it is sadly…

Anymras.5729:

TrOtskY.5927:

Anymras.5729:

MarkPhilips.5169:

The only engi build that needs to be downed down is the turret engi because is a toxic build for the game (spvp side)

It’s really worth noting that Turrets aren’t very good for anywhere in the game except low-tier sPvP. They’re too static for most parts of the game…but guess which one plays straight to the strengths of Turrets?

There are no tiers in spvp cos there aren’t enough peopel playing. A legendary nr1 Engi pro can be playing in the same team as a brand new player cos of the mismatch. So it affects all players.

I’m sorry, should I have said ’it’s only good against bad players?’
The idea is the same – if the people know what they’re doing, they’re going to know how to deal with Turrets. It’s not that it doesn’t affect better players…it’s that they actually figure out what to do instead of crying for nerfs the minute they blunder into a Turret nest, and then there’s not really much that the Turret Engineer can do about it but try to put the Turrets in better places.
Either way, if Turrets get nerfed because of sPvP being built around holding points, that just about kills them everywhere else in the game, where they’re already not particularly good.

It’s good against good players too, because a good player playing a certain class/spec simply knows he cannot fight the engi and is forced to go elsewhere. This is wasted time and wasted time is lost points.

There should not be a single build or class in the game that can just “own” a point like this 1v1, it leads to imbalance that spills across the whole of the map onto other nodes. How people don’t seem to realise that just shows the standard of player we are dealing with in pvp.
I see this comment a lot on forums “class/build is balanced just leave the point”. It is a worrying indication of our competitive scene I guess.

Just because that build can dominate a point against you, doesn’t mean it is a problem for the rest of us.

Well that depends on the build or class I am playing. do you not play as any kind of thief or guardian for example? Stop trying to make this personal by bolding you as if this problem was particular to me and my playstyle. This about game balance, not personal god kitten quibbles.

Tbh you just sound exactly like the person I am describing in my last post above ^

You hold the game back.