IMO, engineers are OP
I find it interesting that you claimed to refuse to ever play an engineer, yet you will inaccurately claim to know what the engineer community thinks, and presume to speak for them.
Grenades at max range will absolutely hit player on keep walls, hit siege, hit players from keep walls, hit player fighting on a point, hit world bosses, hit players distracted by other fights, hit players who do not see you coming, all at max range. So you are being very deceptive and dishonest in your representation of claiming what they community wants. Particularly considering how you claim to avoid being part of that community. The only time they are so easily avoided at max range generally, is in 1v1 open field battles. So please stop using a hyperbole that misrepresents the facts.
You might as well give up on using the word “we” as well. Considering that you clearly stated you hate the profession and will never play it, in a previous thread. I am more then open to hear your opinion. Heck I even agree with you about IP being problematic. But if you want to be taken seriously, you have to speak at least with limited experience or on the basis of actual fact, and not hyperbole and hearsay.
first of all, please assume all points i make are made in the context of sPvP. requesting balance in either WvW or PvE is asking for the impossible. i could care less if engineers were able to somehow kill dungeon bosses in a single hit for all that matters. as long as a balance issue doesn’t unfairly affect your performance against human players, i’m not here to discuss it.
secondly, the idea that the only way you can have a valid opinion on a profession’s balance is by playing it is complete nonsense. I’ve played multiple professions over the span of 1,500 hours of experience starting from pre-release, I’ve learned the ins and outs of every profession and their meta builds, I’ve studied plenty of gameplay from “good” engineers, I’ve played/dueled against countless engineers, I’ve asked friends and good players who main engineer how to beat it, etc… i’ve done everything short of just playing one.
if an astronomer tells you that the sun is hot i think it’s safe to say he has weight to his argument despite the fact he’s never been there in person.
i also never claimed that you guys just flat out didn’t want grenadier (or that i ever played engineer), what i said was that when forced to choose between incendiary powder and grenadier IP would win out without much issue and we’re still left with a flat out broken mechanic, and despite this you turn around and base all of your detracting statements on your misrepresentation of my argument- the very definition of a straw man argument.
so if you yourself want to be taken seriously i think it’s time you stop relying on underhanded methods of discourse and start trying to actually dispute the points put forth.
Also, totally still going to point out that Grenadier does things besides increase Range, since you apparently missed that, given that you’re going right back to saying things about the range increase not being that important.
Grenade Kit is balanced around Grenadier for a reason, and that reason is more likely the extra grenade than the extra range.
of course grenadier does more than just increase range, im fully aware of this. im just saying that the comparatively useless range increase is literally the only area where IP doesn’t beat out grenadier.
my point, again, was that in the choice between IP and grenadier incendiary powder would win out over grenadier because:
- incendiary powder gives engineers far better ranged pressure with pistol alone than nades do when traited with grenadier; grenades around and past the 600-ish range are really easy to avoid thanks to their arcing projectile path, just clusterbomb on thief shortbow.
- grenade kit’s main use is for close-proximity aoe spam and is taken over bomb kit usually because the nades explode instantly at this range while (most importantly) heavily increasing the chances of an IP proc. a single IP proc from the default amount of nades would outdamage the hits from multiple additional nades even if they crit.
what i’m trying to say is that IP in it’s current form has to go. moving it up a tier isn’t going to do anything. you could add a whole other tier and put it there and engies would drop 2 from tools and go 8/0/0/6/0 just for IP.
If you nerfed IP you would have to increase the damage of every weapon and skill the engie has to make up for it as offensive engie would not be possible. It would take a major rework.
It is so powerful, the best solution might be to make it a GM trait.
why do engineers get so worked up over the thought of having to choose between offensive or defensive viability like every other profession?
swapping it to GM won’t do anything and that’s why you want it: all meta engie builds have 6 points in explosives, and trading off the extra nade range or shorter bomb fuses for IP wouldn’t even take a second thought.
and now I wait for the standard “b-but engineer is weak to condition necro” routine,
I don’t really main an Engi. I have played one to understand them better and/or provide a condition option for my team or counter to other Engi’s. I don’t really like the class and also feel it has an imbalance of Offense & Defense at the same time. But I don’t want to see the class totally gutted or reduced to nothing but turrets.
You can not just remove IP without rehauling the whole class as their damage without IP is pretty low. Making someone chose between Grenadier and IP would at least weaking some of the OPness. Maybe an internal CD might also be necessary, but it is hard to say without playtesting.
Anet lied (where’s the Manifesto now?)
@coglin
Nades fail against a decent/aware opponent at long range though. I highly doubt they balance based off of poor/unaware players. It’s not just 1v1 open field where this comes into play.
If they are unaware of you at 1,500, they probably won’t be aware of you at 1,200. Players on walls can easily move out of the aoe before they land at max range. To hit with nades at 1,500 your target would probably need to be tied to poorly placed siege. This game isn’t exactly balanced based on WvW anyhow though. There are far larger balance problems in WvW than these sorts of things. It really wouldn’t bother me much to have the range reduced to 1,200, but I don’t see how that’s a necessary change due to how slow nades move through the air and how easy they are to avoid because of that either.
@sinject IP has already been nerfed multiple times despite it being there to make up for the poor auto attack damage. It wouldn’t be justifiable to move something like that up to a GM trait without increasing eng’s other damage sources so that it’s no longer the reason it exists. At that point they should just replace IP with a new trait as it wouldn’t be necessary. It would take a lot of work, but I’m sure it could be done if they felt it was necessary (which doesn’t seem to be the case).
If you really want to learn a class I highly suggest playing it for a while. You’ll gain far more insights that way compaired to just playing against whatever class you’re having problems with. It really helps with predictions since you can quickly think “what would I do here?” That knowledge is invaluable.
Even with that knowledge an eng will be a tough matchup for your thief though. When you play against your class’s counter a lot, you start to get a distorted view of their overall balance. Should eng’s be asking for necro nerfs? Nah, necro is fine despite how they rotflstomp eng harder than any other class rotflstomps their easy matchup.
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
(edited by Aberrant.6749)
Nades fail against a decent/aware opponent at long range though. I highly doubt they balance based off of poor/unaware players. It’s not just 1v1 open field where this comes into play.
Whtehr it was balanced in that context is irrelevant. The fact that it function well and is used very often, in that context is relevant though
If they are unaware of you at 1,500, they probably won’t be aware of you at 1,200. Players on walls can easily move out of the aoe before they land at max range. To hit with nades at 1,500 your target would probably need to be tied to poorly placed siege. This game isn’t exactly balanced based on WvW anyhow though. There are far larger balance problems in WvW than these sorts of things. It really wouldn’t bother me much to have the range reduced to 1,200, but I don’t see how that’s a necessary change due to how slow nades move through the air and how easy they are to avoid because of that either.
You are incorrect. This is why it is considered one of the best weapon sets in the game to use at maximum range against large forces. No one said we should base anything around WvW. Although in all of the recent skill bars, the devs stated specifically, that when discussing the changing of professional aspects that we have to consider its effects on the profession in WvW, PvE, and PvP.
Sorry, didn’t understand your first reply.
“Large forces” seems to imply WvW, but I guess large is vague enough to where you could mean 4-5. If you have a “large force” in one spot in PvP that would mean that other points are wide open. This can happen but it’s usually not a good idea/is pretty rare, comes with other issues, and is thus not a big deal. Against more numerous targets things like retal will hurt like a kitten because 3x projectiles times however many of them hit a target = ow ow ow stop hitting yourself. AOE cleansing of conditions also becomes an issue. It’s still not the best thing to use nades at max range even in that situation when you consider everything involved. You will technically hit something if there are enough things going on and they can’t walk out of the area due to other factors though (mentioned this in another thread and thought it was this one, so my bad there). It’s pretty niche to use them at 1,500 outside of WvW and wouldn’t be a big deal if it was lowered to 1,200.
Consider its effects doesn’t sound like they are considering it equally. There are massive changes that would need to be done to start to balance WvW. It seems to be by far the lowest priority. I would be surprised if it’s given much more than a cursory glance in that direction
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
If you nerfed IP you would have to increase the damage of every weapon and skill the engie has to make up for it as offensive engie would not be possible. It would take a major rework.
It is so powerful, the best solution might be to make it a GM trait.
you wanna talk about weak weapon sets? let’s talk about thief ranged options, shall we?
would you like some thief shortbow maybe?
IP shouldn’t proc from any fart engi makes and should be moved to GM
[Teef] guild :>
If you nerfed IP you would have to increase the damage of every weapon and skill the engie has to make up for it as offensive engie would not be possible. It would take a major rework.
It is so powerful, the best solution might be to make it a GM trait.
you wanna talk about weak weapon sets? let’s talk about thief ranged options, shall we?
would you like some thief shortbow maybe?
IP shouldn’t proc from any fart engi makes and should be moved to GM
So are you here to cry about thief P/P or talk about engineer. You should actually play the engineer sometime. Clearly you have not, or you would know MH pistol on thief is certailny stronger damage out put as MH dagger on engineer.
It’s pretty niche to use them at 1,500 outside of WvW and wouldn’t be a big deal if it was lowered to 1,200.
Niche? Hardly. It is used extremely often on mobs, world bosses, dungeons…………Defending and assaulting keeps in WvW, and in large battles in WvW. What information do you base your presumption that it is “niche” when it is valuable in more cases then not?
Consider its effects doesn’t sound like they are considering it equally. There are massive changes that would need to be done to start to balance WvW. It seems to be by far the lowest priority. I would be surprised if it’s given much more than a cursory glance in that direction
No not really. Again you make assumptions about what the devs do or think, and post them as if they are fact. Particularly after they specifically stated recently that balance changes should take PvE and WvW into consideration.
Are you one of those tin foil hat presumptuous guys who believe this?
(edited by dancingmonkey.4902)
If you nerfed IP you would have to increase the damage of every weapon and skill the engie has to make up for it as offensive engie would not be possible. It would take a major rework.
It is so powerful, the best solution might be to make it a GM trait.
you wanna talk about weak weapon sets? let’s talk about thief ranged options, shall we?
would you like some thief shortbow maybe?
IP shouldn’t proc from any fart engi makes and should be moved to GM
The devs have outright stated that Engineer non-Kit weapons are intentionally weak, due to the presence of Kits, which is also why Engineers don’t have Weapon Swap without Kits. Or, come to think of it, Weapon Choice, as Engineers literally have three on-land weapons (Pistol, Shield, Rifle; Pistol can be wielded in Off-Hand) and one in-water choice. Incendiary Powder has always been a ‘well, this kind of makes up for it, right?’ option.
If you nerfed IP you would have to increase the damage of every weapon and skill the engie has to make up for it as offensive engie would not be possible. It would take a major rework.
It is so powerful, the best solution might be to make it a GM trait.
you wanna talk about weak weapon sets? let’s talk about thief ranged options, shall we?
would you like some thief shortbow maybe?
IP shouldn’t proc from any fart engi makes and should be moved to GM
So are you here to cry about thief P/P or talk about engineer. You should actually play the engineer sometime. Clearly you have not, or you would know MH pistol on thief is certailny stronger damage out put as MH dagger on engineer.
It’s pretty niche to use them at 1,500 outside of WvW and wouldn’t be a big deal if it was lowered to 1,200.
Niche? Hardly. It is used extremely often on mobs, world bosses, dungeons…………Defending and assaulting keeps in WvW, and in large battles in WvW. What information do you base your presumption that it is “niche” when it is valuable in more cases then not?
Consider its effects doesn’t sound like they are considering it equally. There are massive changes that would need to be done to start to balance WvW. It seems to be by far the lowest priority. I would be surprised if it’s given much more than a cursory glance in that direction
No not really. Again you make assumptions about what the devs do or think, and post them as if they are fact. Particularly after they specifically stated recently that balance changes should take PvE and WvW into consideration.
Are you one of those tin foil hat presumptuous guys who believe this?
PvE = very easy as is, idk of any encounter where 1,500 range is needed. WvW = imbalanced as all kitten, changing it to 1,200 would make very little difference overall because of that, but I did mention that it’s used there, so idk why you brought that up… also re-read the post you took the snip from. There are reasons why tossing nades around in WvW at max range isn’t a great idea.
“Seems” =/= posting as fact. If you look at the balance changes though, what do they seem to be mostly balancing for? PvP. Feel free to go look up all of the PvE/WvW based changes then compare it to the number of PvP ones.
Guess it’s time for you to try to make personal attacks since you don’t want to discuss the issue though : /
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
(edited by Aberrant.6749)
I always find it comical how posters try to throw the word “spam” around when they are trying to put down another profession in the “X profession is OP” threads. As if you are not constantly spamming weapons skills, heals, utilities, elites, and dodges, on every single profession in every fight.
Except in certain classes case (Engi, ele, thief) there is literally spam. Engineers always have something available to them, and for some reason this ability to consistently toss everything out and repeat makes them a “high skill” class.
Maybe players who have played engi extensively can actually weave these skills together efficiantly and get the most from the class, but when I pick up my engi and spam grenades on point and down 3 players it’s not because the class is high skill.
If you nerfed IP you would have to increase the damage of every weapon and skill the engie has to make up for it as offensive engie would not be possible. It would take a major rework.
It is so powerful, the best solution might be to make it a GM trait.
you wanna talk about weak weapon sets? let’s talk about thief ranged options, shall we?
would you like some thief shortbow maybe?
IP shouldn’t proc from any fart engi makes and should be moved to GM
The devs have outright stated that Engineer non-Kit weapons are intentionally weak, due to the presence of Kits, which is also why Engineers don’t have Weapon Swap without Kits. Or, come to think of it, Weapon Choice, as Engineers literally have three on-land weapons (Pistol, Shield, Rifle; Pistol can be wielded in Off-Hand) and one in-water choice. Incendiary Powder has always been a ‘well, this kind of makes up for it, right?’ option.
so why don’t we add traits that add 1k burning to shortbow, cuz balanced
[Teef] guild :>
I always find it comical how posters try to throw the word “spam” around when they are trying to put down another profession in the “X profession is OP” threads. As if you are not constantly spamming weapons skills, heals, utilities, elites, and dodges, on every single profession in every fight.
Except in certain classes case (Engi, ele, thief) there is literally spam. Engineers always have something available to them, and for some reason this ability to consistently toss everything out and repeat makes them a “high skill” class.
Maybe players who have played engi extensively can actually weave these skills together efficiantly and get the most from the class, but when I pick up my engi and spam grenades on point and down 3 players it’s not because the class is high skill.
There are a lot of games where you can just spam and win vs bad players. Against some one that knows what they are doing though… it doesn’t work. I’m fine with that.
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
PvE = very easy as is, idk of any encounter where 1,500 range is needed.
So your suggesting nerfing grenade range based purely on the fact that you feel PvE is easy. I feel we would need an actual substantial reason to implement yet another grenade kit nerf.
I always find it comical how posters try to throw the word “spam” around when they are trying to put down another profession in the “X profession is OP” threads. As if you are not constantly spamming weapons skills, heals, utilities, elites, and dodges, on every single profession in every fight.
Except in certain classes case (Engi, ele, thief) there is literally spam. Engineers always have something available to them, and for some reason this ability to consistently toss everything out and repeat makes them a “high skill” class.
Maybe players who have played engi extensively can actually weave these skills together efficiantly and get the most from the class, but when I pick up my engi and spam grenades on point and down 3 players it’s not because the class is high skill.
Yes, experienced engineer tend to not camp in kits. So are you suggesting you are not constantly spamming weapons skills, heals, utilities, elites, and dodges, on every single profession in every fight?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c
PvE = very easy as is, idk of any encounter where 1,500 range is needed.
So your suggesting nerfing grenade range based purely on the fact that you feel PvE is easy. I feel we would need an actual substantial reason to implement yet another grenade kit nerf.
Please read my other posts and the thread as a whole more carefully. This is quite obviously not what I’ve been saying. Heck, I haven’t asked for a nade nerf at all. I’ve just been pointing out that 1,200 vs 1,500 range on nades isn’t a big deal what so ever because of the limitations that the speed of the nades etc.
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa
(edited by Aberrant.6749)
you wanna talk about weak weapon sets? let’s talk about thief ranged options, shall we?
would you like some thief shortbow maybe?
IP shouldn’t proc from any fart engi makes and should be moved to GM
I wasn’t talking about any other class besides Engineer and their weapons are very low damage because IP exists.
However, on other threads I have seen people brag about how they can defeat less mobile classes with just a shortbow, so I am not 100% sure how bad the damage actually is. And considering the weapon has a port, blast finisher and a couple combo finsihers, maybe the weapon is more for WvW than Spvp. I am sure you could trait Shortbow up so that it did respectable damage just like any weapon. They make each weapon set with spreadsheets not random theorycrafting.
The devs have outright stated that Engineer non-Kit weapons are intentionally weak, due to the presence of Kits, which is also why Engineers don’t have Weapon Swap without Kits. Or, come to think of it, Weapon Choice, as Engineers literally have three on-land weapons (Pistol, Shield, Rifle; Pistol can be wielded in Off-Hand) and one in-water choice. Incendiary Powder has always been a ‘well, this kind of makes up for it, right?’ option.
I think that was kind of my point. The weapons would need to be totally redone because they are so weak without IP.
Anet lied (where’s the Manifesto now?)
Not every single condie engie takes IP,some of us already have enough burns.
Just saying,keep on with nerf-wanting posts from theory crafted informations.At least something new apart from usuall nerf warrior/thief :-)
Yes, experienced engineer tend to not camp in kits. So are you suggesting you are not constantly spamming weapons skills, heals, utilities, elites, and dodges, on every single profession in every fight?
What I’m suggesting is that in my experience some classes take more thought process to their ‘spam’ as opposed to others. I have an 80 of every class, and am extremely good at playing at the minimal skill level required for all of them.
In my mediocre experience I’ve found that engi is one of the classes that takes the least amount of thought in order to succeed, as I can just click though my kits..rinse and repeat..oh look I’m winning.
Every class has their own spam, engi just has more than others. It takes as much thought as hambow warrior in my opinion. Certainly not as complex as people like to preach.
Yes, experienced engineer tend to not camp in kits. So are you suggesting you are not constantly spamming weapons skills, heals, utilities, elites, and dodges, on every single profession in every fight?
What I’m suggesting is that in my experience some classes take more thought process to their ‘spam’ as opposed to others. I have an 80 of every class, and am extremely good at playing at the minimal skill level required for all of them.
In my mediocre experience I’ve found that engi is one of the classes that takes the least amount of thought in order to succeed, as I can just click though my kits..rinse and repeat..oh look I’m winning.Every class has their own spam, engi just has more than others. It takes as much thought as hambow warrior in my opinion. Certainly not as complex as people like to preach.
I’m certainly not hugely knowledgable about the game, but that strikes me as a simplification. If all you are doing is cycling through each kit, using each kit’s respective highest damage skills, then yeah, it doesn’t take much thought. And you might even be able to be successful that way, because you simply have more high-damage abilities to use.
But there’s more to engineer kits than just the highest damage abilities. Each kit also has utility abilities, and by virtue of having so many kits, Engineers will typically have far more utility abilities at their disposal than other classes. The more options at ones disposal, the more thought needs to go into maximizing your effectiveness. So I think a good engineer likely needs to think more than a good user of other classes.
For instance, you COULD just cycle to Toolkit for the high Pry Bar damage. But you’d be ignoring Gear Shield and Magnet, both of which are quite effective but require thoughtful use. You could use Bomb Kit for its high-damage auto attack. But it also has a fire field and smoke field that takes thought to use effectively, not to mention Glue Bomb which is good but needs to be deployed well to be effective. You might just cycle to Elixir Gun for the Acid Bomb damage. But Fumigate can be super helpful if deployed at the right time in groups or to help you figure out where a Thief is. Flamethrower is not just a great tagging device. It also is useful for a low-cooldown blast finisher, a fire field, a really good knock back, and an instant aoe blind. Grenade Kit is the closest to a spamming kit, but, even then, Flash and Poison grenades are at least somewhat situational.
So yeah, you can probably be successful as an engineer just cycling between kits, using some combination of shrapnel grenade, freeze grenade, pry bar, flame blast, acid bomb, blunderbuss, jump shot, and your high-damage tool belt skills, as each of these get off cooldown. But you’d be more effective if you knew when to use the MANY situational skills you have as well. And knowing when to use those takes skill.
…
Your point however helps my own point further.
I agree, as I already stated, that skilled players can make engi truly shine due to their knowledge and abilities as a player, however average engi Rose can jump in and do almost as good rolling my face on the keys. I may not know the proper rotations (Spoiler: I don’t) but there’s not much anyone can do under the pressure that engi’s can dish out, whether they know what they’re doing or not. That makes the class have an extremely low skill floor.
There’s a reason so many people are running engi in spvp, and it’s not because it’s complicated. Players always will use what will bring them the easiest victory.
But there’s more to engineer kits than just the highest damage abilities. Each kit also has utility abilities, and by virtue of having so many kits, Engineers will typically have far more utility abilities at their disposal than other classes. The more options at ones disposal, the more thought needs to go into maximizing your effectiveness. So I think a good engineer likely needs to think more than a good user of other classes.
Actually no, the more utility abilities you have, all you need to do is use utility at situations respectively. While Other classes who don’t have certain utility which helps them get out of trouble from certain situations, will need to think more, time dodge better, position better, instead of just switch kit, click and be safe.
...
Your point however helps my own point further.
I agree, as I already stated, that skilled _players_ can make engi truly shine due to their knowledge and abilities as a player, however average engi Rose can jump in and do almost as good rolling my face on the keys. I may not know the proper rotations (Spoiler: I don’t) but there’s not much anyone can do under the pressure that engi’s can dish out, whether they know what they’re doing or not. That makes the class have an extremely low skill floor.
There’s a reason so many people are running engi in spvp, and it’s not because it’s complicated. Players always will use what will bring them the easiest victory.
Ehh no they can’t any prof/spec can click skills off cd if they aren’t being focus. If your teams lets zerker staff ele, Necro condi/power, GS/Staff shatter mesmer just free cast as the please of course they can contribute greats to the fight. Same with engi though engi unlike other prof meta builds is more susceptible to focus fire, due to lack of condition removal, stab and stun breaks.
The reason why we see a decent amount of engis is because of turret spec thats what majority of people are running. You dont see to many multi/triple kit specs.
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir
…
Your point however helps my own point further.
I agree, as I already stated, that skilled players can make engi truly shine due to their knowledge and abilities as a player, however average engi Rose can jump in and do almost as good rolling my face on the keys. I may not know the proper rotations (Spoiler: I don’t) but there’s not much anyone can do under the pressure that engi’s can dish out, whether they know what they’re doing or not. That makes the class have an extremely low skill floor.
There’s a reason so many people are running engi in spvp, and it’s not because it’s complicated. Players always will use what will bring them the easiest victory.
I think there’s an element of truth to that. The fact that there is essentially no cooldown on switching kits makes engineer more n00b-friendly than elementalist, where you can really mess yourself up by making the wrong attunement switch. With engineer, you do not really need to know some set rotation and, when stuff gets crazy, you are not really penalized for making a rash switch. So yeah, I tend to agree that engineer takes less thought to be competent at than elementalist does (case in point: I’m a bad player and am competent as an engineer and incompetent as an elementalist).
With that said, an engineer does take skill in a different way. Many of their attacks are unique and require more skill to pull off correctly than other professions’ attacks. Specifically, grenades and bombs are unique and require anticipation to use. Players who are new to the profession/game are unlikely to be skillful enough to be effective with those, which is a real problem since those are the two highest DPS kits. Even Flamethrower requires some skill/practice; Flame Blast is, by far, your best attack, but in order to get the most out of it, you have to time it really well so that you detonate it AFTER it has gone through the person, but not so far afterwards that it is out of range.
So here’s what I’d say. For a player with low technical skill at the game, engineers will be super bad. For someone with high technical skill, but low knowledge of the class, engineer can still be pretty good since you can just easily cycle through high-damage abilities (though, of course, you at least need enough knowledge to know what those abilities are). The latter is what you are objecting to. And I get that. But this game is meant to reward technical skill first and foremost, so I do not really have a problem with people who have that skill being able to be pretty good with a technically-difficult class they aren’t an expert in.
…
Precisely. All classes I believe have the potential to be truly devastating and intricate when placed in the hands of certain players. That doesn’t change that some classes (or builds) have the ability to be picked up and succeeded with with relative ease.
And maybe I should have stated earlier that I was looking at this from a spvp perspective, where engis have it even easier. Sure, in wvw engi is a little more challenging due to the open field nature. However in a game mode where you essentially have to stay on a point that the engi can more than control with his kitten nal, you can see where what they have is a little too much.
The way I see it there are a lot of builds in GW2 that do not balance risk and reward well. BM rangers, Medi gard, PU mesmers to name a few.
Celestial engie is just another in the mix, problem is unlike PU, Celestial engies are actually viable which is a product of the game type. (spvp)
I’m unsure if that warrants a nerf tho, the context being that you ultimetly don’t have 3-5 min to screw around off point gaining momentum that you can lose at a moments notice.
I think a few suggestions for relatively fair changes that don’t hurt the builds playstyle would be:
1. make the heal easier to interrupt
if not
2. make it so heals cannot be popped while blocking or any other defensive mechanic is up.
or
3. as an alternative force the defensive mechanics to not contest a point.
Any of these 3 would allow almost any build to have a better chance when fighting over a point.
If we consider celestial to be the underlying problem what if we don’t make make it a flat 438 across the board why not create 2 amulets from it, one more defensive that has reduced power, precision, ferocity, and condi dmg, but keeps the 438 defensive stats, and an alternate ammy that has reduced defensive stats but keeps 438 in the offensive slots? <- could solve more than just the issues with engie.
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
(edited by Daishi.6027)
If engineers are so OP, why the engineers are among the least played professions in WvWvW and pve? Many hard core WvWvW guilds are not even recruiting any engineers, but are looking for warriors, guardians, necromancers, elementalists, mesmers and thieves. For example
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/recruitment/DAWN-WvW-guild-recruiting
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/recruitment/dF-Driven-By-Fury-is-Recruiting/first
I would say the main reasons for engineer’s overpowered come from the static nature of the spvp. Engi can be build to capture and hold a small point e.g. the turret engineer. Turret engineer is not a worthy build for neither pve or WvWvW. And the celestial rifle engis in WvWvW are rare as hen’s tooth. Most engis use condi bunker pistol/shield e.g. dire, perplexity runes (that build is strong to a problematic level, but that is due the nature of the perplexity runes and dire gear, which should have never made to this game). In WvWvW you often have more than 3 enemies firing at the same target and mobility is far more important.
WvWvW is my main mode. Engineer’s strong points there are:
- can solo capture a camp fast (most professions can do this in <=1 minute)
- good at suppressing the walls (staff elementalist and staff + wells necromancer are better)
- long ranged pressure on immobile targets with grenades (anybody over 1000 range can easily just kite the slowly flying ‘nades, LB ranger gets far more consistent hits at 600+ range)
- decent group support with tossed elixirs + elixir gun + healing turret (but pales in comparison to shout guardians and shout warriors and elementalists)
- great AoE pressure with grenades (but retaliation will kill your engi) and bombs (but ele has even better AoE)
- good mobility with speedy kits + rocket boots (but pales in comparison to GS warriors and thieves)
- great single target close range CC with rifle (but hammer warrior’s AoE CC completely outshines engineer)
Engi’s weaknesses in WvWvW setting:
- weak condition removal
- susceptible to focus fire
- susceptible to boon corruption (engis often run with lots of boons, one corrupt can be devastating, especially if followed by burst)
- susceptible to burst (e.g. warrior’s innately bigger health pool, higher armor + many invulnerabilities via stances make it sturdier against burst)
- relatively weak access to stability and stun breaks
- turrets useless besides healing turret heal and launch explosions from accelerant packed turrets
To summarize: engineer can fill in many roles in WvWvW, but is not among the top dogs in any important role and has major weaknesses in open field battles and group fights.
(edited by Deniara Devious.3948)