Guild Wars 2

maha.7902:

Rangers, the class getting big buffs , thieves which are used to an extent in all three game formats, and necros which are solid in wvw, have access to numerous solid PvP builds and capable of pulling off competitive dps in pve. Mesmer – the class which is completely phased out of PvP, absolute trash tier in open world an instancd pve (they are literally replaceable by a consumable) and in wvw you drop a veil and call it quits. So no. I’ve played Mesmer, I like Mesmer and wanted it to work, but it doesn’t. The OP is just a bad player who for dumped on by the worst class in the entire game and wants to just call them overpowered rather than try to improve.

First, the buffs are coming in 2 months most likely. Until then, Rangers are still pure trash in all 3 modes, so don’t even pull those into the equation. Second, you haven’t seen your class’s balance patch, and considering how good the Rangers are getting buffed (after being nerfed DESPITE being bottom tier since Day 1), don’t be surprised if Mesmers get some buffs as well. Third, Mesmers are wanted in all 3 modes currently unlike Ranger, so you can’t call yourself bottom of the barrel if your class is wanted in all 3 modes.

Do you even play Mesmer? They are not wanted in pve. They are absolute garbage in pve. They’re literally the joke of my guild. They’re wanted in wvw for veil then you might as well get lost. In PvP, well I’d say the lack of mesmers at high level, and high level mesmers playing other classes says enough about how good it is there.

RyuDragnier.9476:

maha.7902:

Rangers, the class getting big buffs , thieves which are used to an extent in all three game formats, and necros which are solid in wvw, have access to numerous solid PvP builds and capable of pulling off competitive dps in pve. Mesmer – the class which is completely phased out of PvP, absolute trash tier in open world an instancd pve (they are literally replaceable by a consumable) and in wvw you drop a veil and call it quits. So no. I’ve played Mesmer, I like Mesmer and wanted it to work, but it doesn’t. The OP is just a bad player who for dumped on by the worst class in the entire game and wants to just call them overpowered rather than try to improve.

First, the buffs are coming in 2 months most likely. Until then, Rangers are still pure trash in all 3 modes, so don’t even pull those into the equation. Second, you haven’t seen your class’s balance patch, and considering how good the Rangers are getting buffed (after being nerfed DESPITE being bottom tier since Day 1), don’t be surprised if Mesmers get some buffs as well. Third, Mesmers are wanted in all 3 modes currently unlike Ranger, so you can’t call yourself bottom of the barrel if your class is wanted in all 3 modes.

Something about “mesmer” and “buff” coexisting in the same sentence…

I won’t compare mesmers and rangers, because each one has different problems in different game modes. I like playing ranger and am glad they are getting some well deserved buffs, even if they aren’t exactly as expected.

But “mesmers are wanted in all 3 game modes…”? Barely, if at all, and only for one or two gimmicks – mainly veil and portal.

Great players make them work in pvp, but held up by a few very weak pillars – portal once again and boon strip shatters. There is one rigid build that just about works with the team – the GS/Staff shatter build. Everything else is sub par in one way or another – fun to play messing around solo, but no team is likely to want you.

I can’t speak from personal experience of pve because I don’t enjoy the mode, but you can take maha’s words as law.

Large scale wvw is veil and gtfo, to be blunt. Of course you can play other builds, but will be far far more effective on other classes.

While you can have success with a lot of builds in roaming – such kittenter or other random builds, these are all hard countered by something (mostly thieves), so while you can do well on these builds, you will run into some enemy that at the same skill level will destroy you, simply because of their class and build. PU builds are the only way to guarantee no hard counters in roaming – although I prefer shatter because it’s more active.

In any case I will be extremely surprised at any significant buff mesmer’s receive in the next patch – I’m expecting more unnecessary nerfs (iLeap…) or bug fixes that don’t work.

maha.7902:

Do you even play Mesmer? They are not wanted in pve. They are absolute garbage in pve. They’re literally the joke of my guild. They’re wanted in wvw for veil then you might as well get lost. In PvP, well I’d say the lack of mesmers at high level, and high level mesmers playing other classes says enough about how good it is there.

Funny, every party I’ve been in for dungeons and fractals wants Mesmers due to how much damage they can dish out, their ability to reflect every projectile back at the enemy regardless of direction it’s fired in (completely trivializes several bosses), their AoE condition/boon controlling (makes the golem boss in CoE a joke), the ability to half the damage everybody takes with the Phantasmal Defender, a line of stealth, etc. If your guild thinks they’re useless, then I’m sorry, but the people in your guild know not of what they speak of, and are probably (I’m saying this in the kindest terms) ignorant.

maha.7902:

Do you even play Mesmer?

Their sig helpfully points to mains of Ranger(pve) and Thief(wvw)

RyuDragnier.9476:

maha.7902:

Do you even play Mesmer? They are not wanted in pve. They are absolute garbage in pve. They’re literally the joke of my guild. They’re wanted in wvw for veil then you might as well get lost. In PvP, well I’d say the lack of mesmers at high level, and high level mesmers playing other classes says enough about how good it is there.

Funny, every party I’ve been in for dungeons and fractals wants Mesmers due to how much damage they can dish out, their ability to reflect every projectile back at the enemy regardless of direction it’s fired in (completely trivializes several bosses), their AoE condition/boon controlling (makes the golem boss in CoE a joke), the ability to half the damage everybody takes with the Phantasmal Defender, a line of stealth, etc. If your guild thinks they’re useless, then I’m sorry, but the people in your guild know not of what they speak of, and are probably (I’m saying this in the kindest terms) ignorant.

Useless, nah. Niche, yeah. Untraited warden usage comes to mind, particularly in fractals, though various tweaks/unannounced changes have altered what can/cannot be absorbed/reflected etc.

Mesmers are like Guardians without the boons, heals, and control… unless you trait specifically for one… or two… or all three and then lack damage.

Guardians can typically slide one or two into their standard builds without having to go all out for it.

Control:
Mesmer using control has to constantly weapon swap, spawn and shatter 3 illusions, and then have upwards of 3 cc utilities. This is enough to… break defiance and get a daze off at any given point in time (although it takes around 20s to get another daze off). This is something most professions can’t do, but… if you’re going to do this you’re not dishing out damage. It’s recommended to just slot Mantra of Distraction and slowly drop defiance as you go then use the Mantra (or a weapon skill) to get a daze on command. This way you don’t lose out on dps.

Healing:
Our only choice for group healing is Restorative Mantras which involve casting 3s to get a 3000 heal. You can almost always cast this if you stagger it properly. Of course, if you’re always casting, then you’re not dealing damage. You can, however, have 3 phantasms dealing damage, but that would mean the fight is taking more than 40s and you’re also casting all the time. Not many fights where you can do this. In fact, the only time where it’s useful to spam heals is a scenario like the Champions in P1 of Arah where new players will die, so the heals are sometimes more useful than actually hitting (especially since Mesmers don’t have much personal dps). Of course, traiting into this and having one Mantra ready (Mantra of Restoration) will allow you to get a little bonus when you heal. It’s not particularly useful to get 4 points down a tree (and not getting another good trait in that tree, Traited Focus) just for a bonus heal that’s AOE.

Boons:
To be able to give out boons, a Mesmer has to run, and I mean HAS to, run Signet of Inspiration. By itself, this is useless, so you’re going to also need to get a Staff and trait for it, which means you’re going at least 4 points down a tree that doesn’t give you damage options. You can then spend your time focusing on supporting allies entirely, and playing like a Guardian. However, you don’t get choice in what Boons you give or get (when you use Signet of Inspiration, you give what you have, so there’s an artificial choice). You can always just use Staff by itself, but that doesn’t give nearly as many boons and it does decrease your dps by a significant amount.

Support:
What a standard Mesmer DOES bring to the table is: Better Reflect with ~20-30% uptime (depending on traits) and/or 100% Projectile Reflect/Destruct if the enemy doesn’t attack in melee (note this only applies after around 20s). AoE Time Warp on a 3.5 minute cooldown, which tends to only be used once or twice in speedruns, depending on particular run. AoE Stability and AoE Cleanse on demand if people like to get fondled inappropriately (and unknowingly) by your mind powers.

A Guardian can also bring:
AoE Stability and Cleanse on demand in a much larger range. AoE Quickness (not that anyone runs this) for the same duration but in 2 bursts spread 15 seconds apart (on a total cooldown of 3 minutes). Uptime for Reflects is 25% or 37.5% (if traited). They might not have higher uptime on projectile destruction, but melee attacks can still occur and it won’t disrupt the projectile destruction. It also has no wind-up other than cast times.

A Mesmer is, currently, a jack of all trades. Except, you know, also a master of none… For almost anything a Mesmer can do, a different profession can do it better.

RyuDragnier.9476:

maha.7902:

Do you even play Mesmer? They are not wanted in pve. They are absolute garbage in pve. They’re literally the joke of my guild. They’re wanted in wvw for veil then you might as well get lost. In PvP, well I’d say the lack of mesmers at high level, and high level mesmers playing other classes says enough about how good it is there.

Funny, every party I’ve been in for dungeons and fractals wants Mesmers due to how much damage they can dish out, their ability to reflect every projectile back at the enemy regardless of direction it’s fired in (completely trivializes several bosses), their AoE condition/boon controlling (makes the golem boss in CoE a joke), the ability to half the damage everybody takes with the Phantasmal Defender, a line of stealth, etc. If your guild thinks they’re useless, then I’m sorry, but the people in your guild know not of what they speak of, and are probably (I’m saying this in the kindest terms) ignorant.

Mesmer has worse than average DPS, and that’s assuming even longer fights, on shorter fights (below 30s) their DPS is abysmal. Sounds like your parties are uninformed and don’t realise that mesmers are completely replaceable by guardian. As for boon removal on the COE golem you realise you can just kill the turret for protection? And I wasn’t aware that being in the guild that basically sets the meta game meant we were uninformed, maybe you should do a little research.

maha.7902:

RyuDragnier.9476:

maha.7902:

Do you even play Mesmer? They are not wanted in pve. They are absolute garbage in pve. They’re literally the joke of my guild. They’re wanted in wvw for veil then you might as well get lost. In PvP, well I’d say the lack of mesmers at high level, and high level mesmers playing other classes says enough about how good it is there.

Funny, every party I’ve been in for dungeons and fractals wants Mesmers due to how much damage they can dish out, their ability to reflect every projectile back at the enemy regardless of direction it’s fired in (completely trivializes several bosses), their AoE condition/boon controlling (makes the golem boss in CoE a joke), the ability to half the damage everybody takes with the Phantasmal Defender, a line of stealth, etc. If your guild thinks they’re useless, then I’m sorry, but the people in your guild know not of what they speak of, and are probably (I’m saying this in the kindest terms) ignorant.

Mesmer has worse than average DPS, and that’s assuming even longer fights, on shorter fights (below 30s) their DPS is abysmal. Sounds like your parties are uninformed and don’t realise that mesmers are completely replaceable by guardian. As for boon removal on the COE golem you realise you can just kill the turret for protection? And I wasn’t aware that being in the guild that basically sets the meta game meant we were uninformed, maybe you should do a little research.

Delusional, you are. You’re so stuck on the meta that you can’t see anything outside of it, and probably don’t know of any builds that can help the party that are outside of the little box you’ve set for yourself. Think outside of it man, make up some new builds, try them out, there’s no excuse not to try.

And FYI, most players don’t care what class you enter a dungeon with, because most players play for fun. And as far as I remember, don’t those turrets have a 10s respawn rate? Most parties I’m in ignore them simply because a Mesmer with Sword mainhand can just strip the boons fast and easily (and it always seems to target the Retal, which is the one most people seem to get taken out by).

RyuDragnier.9476:

maha.7902:

RyuDragnier.9476:

maha.7902:

Do you even play Mesmer? They are not wanted in pve. They are absolute garbage in pve. They’re literally the joke of my guild. They’re wanted in wvw for veil then you might as well get lost. In PvP, well I’d say the lack of mesmers at high level, and high level mesmers playing other classes says enough about how good it is there.

Funny, every party I’ve been in for dungeons and fractals wants Mesmers due to how much damage they can dish out, their ability to reflect every projectile back at the enemy regardless of direction it’s fired in (completely trivializes several bosses), their AoE condition/boon controlling (makes the golem boss in CoE a joke), the ability to half the damage everybody takes with the Phantasmal Defender, a line of stealth, etc. If your guild thinks they’re useless, then I’m sorry, but the people in your guild know not of what they speak of, and are probably (I’m saying this in the kindest terms) ignorant.

Mesmer has worse than average DPS, and that’s assuming even longer fights, on shorter fights (below 30s) their DPS is abysmal. Sounds like your parties are uninformed and don’t realise that mesmers are completely replaceable by guardian. As for boon removal on the COE golem you realise you can just kill the turret for protection? And I wasn’t aware that being in the guild that basically sets the meta game meant we were uninformed, maybe you should do a little research.

Delusional, you are. You’re so stuck on the meta that you can’t see anything outside of it, and probably don’t know of any builds that can help the party that are outside of the little box you’ve set for yourself. Think outside of it man, make up some new builds, try them out, there’s no excuse not to try.

And FYI, most players don’t care what class you enter a dungeon with, because most players play for fun. And as far as I remember, don’t those turrets have a 10s respawn rate? Most parties I’m in ignore them simply because a Mesmer with Sword mainhand can just strip the boons fast and easily (and it always seems to target the Retal, which is the one most people seem to get taken out by).

Dear heavens, what rock have you been hiding under the last few monthes?

Think outside the meta? The mesmer is not even in the meta right now.
How would any mesmer actually be able to think inside of it then? People have no clue about this profession and try to give advice. This will surely help.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Delusional, you are. You’re so stuck on the meta that you can’t see anything outside of it, and probably don’t know of any builds that can help the party that are outside of the little box you’ve set for yourself. Think outside of it man, make up some new builds, try them out, there’s no excuse not to try.

I find it funny how metahater always come up with you should try out other builds/classes as well. Almost as if a group of people just startet playing and was like"oh look, this game doesnt has a meta yet. Lets see… guardian looks cool.. mmh fiery great sword has a funny icon.. lets put that here.. this there… Ok guyse, thats the meta!" and never tested out anything.
Yeah, do you really think that? ^-^

Kibazuka.1390:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Delusional, you are. You’re so stuck on the meta that you can’t see anything outside of it, and probably don’t know of any builds that can help the party that are outside of the little box you’ve set for yourself. Think outside of it man, make up some new builds, try them out, there’s no excuse not to try.

I find it funny how metahater always come up with you should try out other builds/classes as well. Almost as if a group of people just startet playing and was like"oh look, this game doesnt has a meta yet. Lets see… guardian looks cool.. mmh fiery great sword has a funny icon.. lets put that here.. this there… Ok guyse, thats the meta!" and never tested out anything.
Yeah, do you really think that? ^-^

Considering there are people who still think Engineers bring nothing to dungeons, that Thieves have no support options outside of Shadow Refuge, that all Rangers are bearbow…yes.

Mesmer is overpowered?

Maybe not, but they are definitely not weak. Mesmer do see tons of high level play.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2bw0uz/all_the_builds_from_eu_tol_qualifier_2/

4/6 teams include mesmers in their teams.

2 teams have a Necro.
1 team only have Ranger.

PU is strong in duels, but then there are some classes that just have an advantage, clones are basically c’n’d fodder. And it is difficult to clear any condis on a mesmer, you can run the disenchanter which is what i usually do over veil when i see a condi thief but i still find it an uphill battle against any competent condi thief.

Necro is the other class that is difficult to beat if they take all of their condi removal and condi transfer. It’s just a bit too much to overcome and it is always an uphill battle verses a good necro that knows what condis to watch out for and can xfer them to u.

Really you are monitoring how high your confusion stacks are getting and watching for the 5 stacks of torment from the scepter for condi PU’s. But as people have said if they are running staff – scepter/torch you can almost just walk away from the fight and there is very little the mesmer can do.

runeblade.7514:

Mesmer is overpowered?

Maybe not, but they are definitely not weak. Mesmer do see tons of high level play.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2bw0uz/all_the_builds_from_eu_tol_qualifier_2/

4/6 teams include mesmers in their teams.

2 teams have a Necro.
1 team only have Ranger.

Statistics of note:

Every team has a Guardian
All run staff
6 in Honor
Trooper Runes
Cleric’s Amulet

Every team has a Warrior
All are hambow
All but one running the same 3 stances (Odd one out still running 2 of 3 as stances)
All running 6 in Defense and Discipline
5 of 6 run 2 in Tactics
66% run Hoelbrak Runes, 33% run Strength Runes
5 of 6 run Soldier Amulet

Every team has a Thief
5 of 6 running Sword as mainhand (4 of 6 running S/D)
Everyone takes Shadow Refuge and Infiltrator’s Signet
Half and half on third utility being Shadow Step or Signet of Agility
Every thief runs 2 in Deadly Arts and 6 in Trickery
Most running typical 6 in acro, strength runes, sizer setup
Every thief uses Berserker’s amulet

Every team has an Ele or Engi
50% Ele, 50% Engi

Ele
Every ele runs D/D, Signet of Restoration, Same 3 Cantrips
2 of 3 Ele’s prefer FGS
Exact same traits, sigils, runes, amulet.
one out of three people took a different elite. Otherwise all 3 ele’s are exactly the same build.

Engi
Lots of variation. Not much that I can see across the board.
All but two teams have a Mesmer (Other two are Ranger and Necro)

Mesmer
All mesmers run Staff + GS
All mesmers use the same heal and utilities
3 of 4 choose Mass Invisibility
Exact same traits across the board
50/50 on Runes being Traveler’s or Strength

TL;DR

“Meta” Party Composition:

Bunker Guardian
Hambow Warrior
Trickery Thief (Most emphasizing mobility)
Ele or Engi (Mostly used for side-bunker and condition pressure)
Most likely to be a Shatter Mesmer (And if so, double ranged with portal.)

Of the 30 players that participated:

Only one Necro
Only one Ranger

TL;DR

Everyone is emulating Team Mist every time, 85% of the time.

If the idea of GW2 eSports is that everyone is running the same setup, they did well.

If you think the extremely bugged mesmer already is OP (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Mesmer-Bugs-35-Updated-July-20/first), you don’t want to face them anymore if they are ever going to fix these bugs.

I know we are not talking about pve mesmers here, but just leave them alone in pve. They are not OP in pve, they are buggy and do not well compared to other professions.
Each nerf that is mostly there to address the mesmer’s “OP-ness” in pvp or wvw, negatively affects and harms the pve mesmer.

I am very interested what reaction will come as soon as mesmers work properly and their bugs are fixed. And I am not even talking about buffs. Just normally functioning mesmers without their tremendous list of bugs.
Oh oh.. that screams OP…. (never mind, just kidding, I do want them fixed and this as soon as possible.. for the sake of pve mesmers ;-))

The point is, 4 mesmer out of 30 players with 8 professions available is just average (well, 30 / 8 = 3.75, so 4 is the closest to average).

On the other hand, high-end tPvP does not normally reflect generall game balance. All mesmers run the same setup, shatter, none of them is PU.
Does this make PU a bad spec? If you only use this sample than yes, shatter is better. When was the last time you saw someone complaining about shatter though?
This spec only works to what we see in the tournament because of the composition of the teams.

@ryu, mumbo jumboing?
U just talking scrubby u know? U dont know why u say things, where should say, and how should say.. Your words is subjective. Ppl dont interest unconstractive words. if they interest/answer to u just because of trying to help u which is appriciated.. i would like to give u advice, check my signiture.. And feel free to ask things.. it ll both more understanging for u and community.. Maybe for anet aswell..

Can we come to a compromise, that all classes are OP, UP and broken?

Black Teagan.9215:

Can we come to a compromise, that all classes are OP, UP and broken?

No,
Yes, all classes may ve op,up or broken things in various roles/modes/playstyles in gw2

Mesmer OP?

Nice thread.

Yes, I -as a PU condi mesmer- can single handedly capture a camp. unbuffed or with guards… that’s true in wvw… I can distract and combat a enemy with my PU condi spam. Forcing me to be in melee range with my light armored character, while I could also go and stand a bit away and use the staff clones to rain down the conditions and completely overwhelm you with 6 bleeds, poison fire and some confusion, but most builds could just turn and run OR just PBAOE me to shreds.

Meeting a necro is a bad thing… He can outcast me with conditions and interupt me doing conditions and lower my dmg… I can interupt him as well doing nice loads of confusion, which can be ignored if he can wait 5 seconds before resuming attacks.

Whil in wvw I am asked to bring null field, veil, portal, feedback and need decoy and prefferably the signet of domination in my 3 utility slots, and my elite slot should contain at least mass invisibility and timewarp. People want me to un into zergs for portal bombs and commanders say, do not worry we will ress you afterwards…

If you want to (wvw)level a mesmer in wvw you’d best go and hop on the karma train in EotM with a full zerk phantasm build… It will give you more cash, more satisfaction and more levels then just trying to stay alive around your zerg in BL or EBG…

Still roaming can be fun, find a nice perma thief (or 2) and a (hybrid) necro (as bait) and farm whatever you like… with some guild cata’s the 3 or 4 can actually capture keeps and castles als long as they roam undetected… But that doesn’t make them OP…

Invisibility is and essential way to stay alive. for (condi) thieves and (condi) mesmers. they are hard countered by DPS mesmers and dps thieves and rangers, as well as any character with a decent amount of AOE skills (necro staff/well bomber?)
The mesmer will croak, as opposed to the thief, who will laugh and kill the attacker.

IMHO each character in wvw has it’s own focus and all can be dangerous in the things they do….
Warriors are OP in CC, Ele’s are OP in ranged dmg, Necro’s are unmatched in AOE, Guards are OP in Mitigation, Thieves are OP in 1vs 1 fights, Rangers are OP in range, Mesmer is OP in distraction and confusion….

OR are they not OP but just focussed to a specific idea/direction which has been worked out better on some builds then on others?

Some builds are very vunerable to mesmers, yes. hard counters exist in this game.

(I cannot talk for engi as I do own 1 but never play it in general, this is no critisism but a fact,)

Op what kind of build are you running? I duel loads of them and I don t have any problem with them.

And what kind of problems are you facing? I might can help you.

(I play necro aswell)

Dark FQ.1038:

Op what kind of build are you running? I duel loads of them and I don t have any problem with them.

And what kind of problems are you facing? I might can help you.

(I play necro aswell)

All together it sounds a bit like a variant of:

“I am scissors, paper is fine, nerf rock.”

Only that we would have to go with:

“I am scissors, but I do not know how to beat paper, nerf paper.”

Build dependent, Mesmers and Necros counter each other fairly well and I generally consider it to be a great fight because of this.

OP would be wise to simply hop on his/her Mesmer and see exactly what a Mesmer might be doing to counter his/her Necro or ask fellow Necros for specific counters.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

“I am scissors, but I do not know how to beat paper, nerf paper.”

look likes xD

Munkee.3951:

I can 1v1 pretty much anyone in pvp on my necro, except for mesmers. It seems like there unkillable to me. Even 2v1 with a guardian with me we we’re unable to kill one it was pretty much a stalemate where he could either heal or run away. Are there classes that are better suited at handling mesmers or are they just generally OP in pvp compared with other classes?

I have seen this paragraph before…is this another pathetic troll attempt….me thinks yes.

u brutish thugs u do realize !

Brutish thugs will be brutish…..but will always remain thugs that try to punk.

maha.7902:

RyuDragnier.9476:

maha.7902:

Do you even play Mesmer? They are not wanted in pve. They are absolute garbage in pve. They’re literally the joke of my guild. They’re wanted in wvw for veil then you might as well get lost. In PvP, well I’d say the lack of mesmers at high level, and high level mesmers playing other classes says enough about how good it is there.

Funny, every party I’ve been in for dungeons and fractals wants Mesmers due to how much damage they can dish out, their ability to reflect every projectile back at the enemy regardless of direction it’s fired in (completely trivializes several bosses), their AoE condition/boon controlling (makes the golem boss in CoE a joke), the ability to half the damage everybody takes with the Phantasmal Defender, a line of stealth, etc. If your guild thinks they’re useless, then I’m sorry, but the people in your guild know not of what they speak of, and are probably (I’m saying this in the kindest terms) ignorant.

Mesmer has worse than average DPS, and that’s assuming even longer fights, on shorter fights (below 30s) their DPS is abysmal. Sounds like your parties are uninformed and don’t realise that mesmers are completely replaceable by guardian. As for boon removal on the COE golem you realise you can just kill the turret for protection? And I wasn’t aware that being in the guild that basically sets the meta game meant we were uninformed, maybe you should do a little research.

Didn’t Dekeys from your own guild release data that suggests mesmers have good dps assuming 3 iswordsman, and long fights? I do believe she did, and if she did (I know she did) then your opening sentence is demonstrably false. As for the Meta, again, according to your own guild’s information, Mesmers are very much a part of the meta with their reflects. The only profession that is truly out of the meta is Necro. Even rangers with spotter and frost spirit have a unique place. Mesmers with Feedback, Timewarp, and untraited wardens provide enough utility to give them a place in the meta.

However, I get the feeling that’ll you take issue with everything I said, so let’s see if I can explain my reasoning in detail, since the meta is a lot more nuanced than you seem to believe.

1. Feedback provides more reliability than Wall of Reflection (highlighted in fights like the grawl fractal, against the legendary shaman), and is pretty much a must, leaving the Guardian to switch to a more useful utility should the extra reflect not be necessary.

2. Timewarp is a dps increase, and therefore has a place in the speedrunning dungeon meta, although you can argue that a 50% increase in attack speed for the whole party for a chunk of time is less dps than replacing the Mesmer outright with a more selfish but higher dps option, although I’ll leave this to actual data, and not an argument or anecdote. This elite is something that Mesmers provide that no one else can.

3. Certain dungeons can be heavily skipped with Portal, and logically speaking, why would a lot of people go through the effort of getting a consumable, when they can just bring a mesmer? Unless the player is a completionist, pugs a lot, or just hates Mesmers and wants to wail on their usefulness than most people will be happy with a mesmer in the party. Not that you and I are most people, so maybe we can do an opinion poll if you disagree with this.

4. The entire criteria for what is and what isn’t viable in the current meta is “Can it speed up our run?” If the answer is yes, then they are viable and useful. Mesmers can safely say yes. I know you personally staunchly hate the fact that Mesmers have only a few useful skills, and their playstyle you personally dislike but that isn’t the same as it not existing. Veil is useful, therefore mesmers have a place; you hating that Mesmers are a veilbot isn’t the same as them having no use, otherwise they wouldn’t even be a veilbot.

Aside from record runs, getting into this incessant nonsense that if a particular profession isn’t in the optimal five professions for record speed runs, NOT just regular speedruns, is meaningless. The vast majority of people who do dungeons and fractals, and wvw aren’t going to go into such a ridiculously perfectionist nitpicking set of actions like dictating what classes can and cannot join, again outside of record speedruns. Outside of pvp, the dungeoning meta (outside of record speedrunning) is an illusion, and is not necessary whatsoever to down content, and if a group doesn’t have a perfectionist goal in the run, like most pugs, the meta doesn’t exist; that is, you’ll see necros, bearbows, Rifle Warriors, Scepter Guardians with no reflects, and Mesmers using greatswords STILL finishing the content and getting their rewards.

Guardian can provide reflects with better uptime than Feedback and projectile destruction with better uptime than 2 Wardens (once 3 Wardens are out, it’s 100% uptime).

Guardians can also provide 10 seconds of Quickness (on par with Time Warp) in 2 5 second bursts 15 seconds apart. The cooldown on this is significantly shorter than TW.

Guardians can provide Aegis, Stability, and Swiftness for running as a group. Mesmer can drop portals but they still have to run it (typically solo) and they don’t have very good swiftness uptime, so unless you retraiting for PU in between fights (and/or waiting on all cooldowns so you can swap to Decoy Veil Blink MI) you’re not going to have a good time with Portal.

Additionally, Guardian has higher DPS than a Warrior, but can’t do PS for permanent 25 party Might.

The only downsides to bringing a Guardian over a Mesmer are:
Wall reflect vs Dome.
Projectile Destruction is worse after 20s
To get TW, dps goes down the drain (but still exists).

Upsides to bringing a Guardian over a Mesmer:
Safety and Damage.
Higher Reflect Uptime
Projectile Destruction is better assuming things don’t only use projectiles (aka every fight except Alphard and most bosses in CM).

Esplen.3940:

Guardian can provide reflects with better uptime than Feedback and projectile destruction with better uptime than 2 Wardens (once 3 Wardens are out, it’s 100% uptime).

Guardians can also provide 10 seconds of Quickness (on par with Time Warp) in 2 5 second bursts 15 seconds apart. The cooldown on this is significantly shorter than TW.

Guardians can provide Aegis, Stability, and Swiftness for running as a group. Mesmer can drop portals but they still have to run it (typically solo) and they don’t have very good swiftness uptime, so unless you retraiting for PU in between fights (and/or waiting on all cooldowns so you can swap to Decoy Veil Blink MI) you’re not going to have a good time with Portal.

Additionally, Guardian has higher DPS than a Warrior, but can’t do PS for permanent 25 party Might.

The only downsides to bringing a Guardian over a Mesmer are:
Wall reflect vs Dome.
Projectile Destruction is worse after 20s
To get TW, dps goes down the drain (but still exists).

Upsides to bringing a Guardian over a Mesmer:
Safety and Damage.
Higher Reflect Uptime
Projectile Destruction is better assuming things don’t only use projectiles (aka every fight except Alphard and most bosses in CM).

You can simply bring a S/D or S/F ele for might stacking in conjunction with the other profession’s blast finishers to provide might stacking, so the notion of the upsides of bringing a guardian over a mesmer applies to other classes as well. Perhaps PS Warriors can actively provide permanent might across the fight (arguably so can eles due to constant reliable firefields), and PS Warriors have inferior dps to the more optimal dps builds for Warriors, while the might roll is primarily relegated to an Ele. Of course this entire discussion is exclusively referring to a group in which only the 5 most optimal builds for record runs are allowed, so unless we’re arguing in a bubble, reality would dictate what is brought and what isn’t a bit differently.

Yes ofc, but the point is that the Ele + Guardian + Warrior combination already covers everything. And they also provide the basis of any high-power combination of damage. They cover virtually all utility, a Mesmer only adding Veil and (very rarely since the culling change) Portal. Everything else can already be provided by a combination of three you want in all cases, anyhow.

I had no clue about how to fight mesmer either, made one myself played it for a week and got a feel for the way they move / distract. Whenever I get on my other pvp characters I dealt alot more easy with mesmers.

Altough it quickly became my favourite pvp character, by no means do I find them OP. You just need to start recognizing what they are actually doing, for example did he blink, use his torch stealth or did he decoy and when you start to see the real mesmer you wanna put alot of pressure on him.

If he is running a phantasm build, dont solo him. If he is running PU, in pvp, remember to fight on point, if you are planning to disengage, make sure you do not leave fields/trails for him to use torment on.

First, to the Op, No one will support a player who says any class is overpowered on forums.

However, the truth is that one of the classes is generally going to be better than others at more things. It will remain that way unless all classes had the same skills. The truth is we can ever know which class is op because players are coming up with new amazing specs all the time for different classes. Some of which get nerfed. I have experience with ranger, thief, mesmer, and elementalists. I have noticed each of the classes (and even the other unmentioned classes) have a extremely strong, hard-to-kill spec. I have also noticed a pattern to the classes that people complain about.
Any class that can continuously maintain stealth, condition removal, and regen or protection, condition removal, and regen will be very hard to kill and almost immortal. Because mesmer has these they are often noted as potentially hard to kill unless they play shatter. However the great news is, adding these qualities is also doable to make very strong elementalist builds or engineer builds. This is how players seem to be able to 1 vs 2 against players who don’t utilize their protection and regeneration. I hope this helps a player fight the mesmer unless they already utilized this, which many already have.

Too bad this game isn’t about 1v1ing or dueling people all day.

I think what he meant by being able to ‘take on’ any other class besides the Mesmer, is not because his class is op, but because he is comfortable with his class and can hang in there with all classes but the Mesmer.

I too agree with that statement. Mesemers can take a serious advantage in pvp. Most of them will use the maps ie hide behind objects or stand at different levels while their illusions can do all the work for them.

there are plenty of tricks of the trade by the different professions HOWEVER the Mesmer is the only class that can force the target off of them and make false targets in there place. To me this is artificial difficulty rather being difficult to kill because of skill.

I think the original post refers to the fact that an ‘unskilled’ player in any other profession can be rolled in pvp in 20 seconds…unless they are a Mesmer. Being a Mesmer guarantees the user extra time before a death regardless if they have skill or not.

I really hope mesmers don’t get any ‘fixes’ to get better. And yes I have a 80 level Mesmer and have refused to play him in pvp after I saw how you can actually trick people. That is not like any other class, even a stealth class like a thief has serious cons to stealth. After a while I felt like such a loser to beat people with a Mesmer just because they couldn’t click there mouse on me. There is no need to use shatter skills, most just use each illusion once they take damage, no need to shatter them when u wont take any damage

iSpook.5612:

there are plenty of tricks of the trade by the different professions HOWEVER the Mesmer is the only class that can force the target off of them and make false targets in there place. To me this is artificial difficulty rather being difficult to kill because of skill.

The “artificial difficulty” is stealth, which is terrible because of how bad the targeting UI is. Clones are super easy to identify. Just look at the buff bar or look at their movement or look at how they stand there limpy doing nothing between attacks. Even total scrubs whose only interaction with PvP is repeatedly quitting hotjoin games when they are about to lose should be able to reliably identify the “real” mesmer. Plus, you don’t even lose target on the mez player unless they go into stealth.

iSpook.5612:

I think the original post refers to the fact that an ‘unskilled’ player in any other profession can be rolled in pvp in 20 seconds…unless they are a Mesmer. Being a Mesmer guarantees the user extra time before a death regardless if they have skill or not.

A halfway competent playing using a burst spec can roll over a bad mesmer just as quickly as they can kill a bad necro or ele.

Full condi PU is a very bunker-ish spec, so it can hold out longer. But it still dies pretty quickly if you don’t manage your positioning right or time your blocks well (depending on the build).

iSpook.5612:

I think the original post refers to the fact that an ‘unskilled’ player in any other profession can be rolled in pvp in 20 seconds…unless they are a Mesmer. Being a Mesmer guarantees the user extra time before a death regardless if they have skill or not.

I really hope mesmers don’t get any ‘fixes’ to get better. And yes I have a 80 level Mesmer and have refused to play him in pvp after I saw how you can actually trick people. That is not like any other class, even a stealth class like a thief has serious cons to stealth. After a while I felt like such a loser to beat people with a Mesmer just because they couldn’t click there mouse on me. There is no need to use shatter skills, most just use each illusion once they take damage, no need to shatter them when u wont take any damage

I don’t think a serious mesmer player chooses to play the profession simply because they can troll a newbie with less than 10 pvp games played. This only happens to someone like you who does not like the profession mechanics and don’t take the character seriously anyway.

For anyone has some experience in PvP, there should be no trouble identifying the real mesmer. Also, no mesmer will actually try to emulate his clones in a competitive game. You can also hide and auto attack and summon illusions all game you want without dying, but that just contributes close to nothing to the team and no one will like you as a teammate.

^ Basically always assume you’re targeted unless you just entered stealth. And even then, assume they know where you are and can hit you.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Dark FQ.1038:

Op what kind of build are you running? I duel loads of them and I don t have any problem with them.

And what kind of problems are you facing? I might can help you.

(I play necro aswell)

All together it sounds a bit like a variant of:

“I am scissors, paper is fine, nerf rock.”

Only that we would have to go with:

“I am scissors, but I do not know how to beat paper, nerf paper.”

Pretty much that, people were blinded with the “play how you want” moto for gw2 and gw2 isn’t about that if one wants to be efective.

(play has you want between these two; be effective or be carried by your team)

RyuDragnier.9476:

(that’s Rangers, Thieves, and Necros)

LMFAO.

IDK if I’d personally consider the mesmer class to be OP, as much as I’d consider GW2’s potential abundant stealth mechanic to be so daunting.

pretty easy to kill, just go for the one that isn’t standing still auto attacking you.

Carighan.6758:

Yes ofc, but the point is that the Ele + Guardian + Warrior combination already covers everything. And they also provide the basis of any high-power combination of damage. They cover virtually all utility, a Mesmer only adding Veil and (very rarely since the culling change) Portal. Everything else can already be provided by a combination of three you want in all cases, anyhow.

Some groups also include thief in that setup because they also have a projectile destruction field
Blind fields
Great Single target DPS

and an abundance of party stealth which is great for running past trash mobs you dont want to deal with.

Even they have more of a guaranteed spot over a mes really.

Runewolf.8456:

pretty easy to kill, just go for the one that isn’t standing still auto attacking you.

By the time you find the right one, you’re downed.
The deception is just too strong in this game. Mesmer was the easiest class I played in PvP, simply because you can do what you want to, most opponents will just be distracted with your clones, spending the she fight trying to target the real you.

Mesmers are a disease in PvP

lazycalm.5186:

Runewolf.8456:

pretty easy to kill, just go for the one that isn’t standing still auto attacking you.

By the time you find the right one, you’re downed.
The deception is just too strong in this game. Mesmer was the easiest class I played in PvP, simply because you can do what you want to, most opponents will just be distracted with your clones, spending the she fight trying to target the real you.

Mesmers are a disease in PvP

I’m usually polite and never usually one to say this, but in this case…

…L2P.

Anyone who’s played this game for more than 5 minutes (slight exaggeration for effect) will rarely be deceived.

Anyone who’s actually good will never be deceived.

Anyone who is deceived needs to get better.

There’s only one single problem when fighting Mesmer – and that is fluent use of target cycling – pressing the right buttons to reselect the correct target. I will accept this part can be annoying because of the targeting system – but again it’s just a matter of getting used to it. If I can get used to the targeting system in GW2 (and I used to seriously struggle with the tab targeting, being used to games with crosshairs), then anyone can.

Anyone who can’t spot the real Mesmer in ~ 1 second needs to L2P.

lazycalm.5186:

By the time you find the right one, you’re downed.
The deception is just too strong in this game. Mesmer was the easiest class I played in PvP, simply because you can do what you want to, most opponents will just be distracted with your clones, spending the she fight trying to target the real you.

Mesmers are a disease in PvP

Me Games Ma.8426:

A short guide just to explain how we mesmers can use clones to distract our enemys:

• don’t use food, sigils, signets (except SoIllusions), mantras, wvw-guard-stacks,…)
• use AA only
• never dodge
• only move with [W]
• only move to stay in range
• stand still for using your AA
• keep attacking when you stealthed with massinvis (just like clones do)
• disable AA and use it as slow as clones do
• pray…

That’s what we have to do so that we get our enemy distracted by clones…

YAY

I’ve posted this a few month ago in the mesmer forum.

lazycalm.5186:

Runewolf.8456:

pretty easy to kill, just go for the one that isn’t standing still auto attacking you.

By the time you find the right one, you’re downed.
The deception is just too strong in this game. Mesmer was the easiest class I played in PvP, simply because you can do what you want to, most opponents will just be distracted with your clones, spending the she fight trying to target the real you.

Mesmers are a disease in PvP

It’s not that people get “distracted” by the clones, it’s that the mesmer stealths and the player keeps spamming skills which gets clones targeted and when the real mesmer comes back out of stealth the player starts spamming tab and cycling through the clones. If you fight a mesmer who doesn’t stealth you won’t have issues.

Honestly I hate that we (mesmers) are so reliant on stealth, as I hate the whole stealth mechanic. It’s just a target drop that abuses the crappy ui and targeting system in this game. For instance if there were a targeting function that allowed people to target nearest player enemy out of al enemies, or cycle through players while ignoring mobs, this wouldn’t happen. “Oh but that would nerf all us mesmers!” Yes it would, but that complaint proves my point that, like thieves, by being balanced around the use of stealth all we are doing is abusing crappy targeting system. Stealth should be removed from the game altogether, but that’s another discussion.

You are not distracted by clones, you are a spammer and the mesmer class all the way from GW1 was meant to punish players like you. We did it inGW1 with amazingly creative skills and abilities from a an infinitely superior dev team, we did it in GW2 with confusion builds before they nerfed after QQ from you, and now we just do it by spamming stealth and clones. Mesmers, though a crappy shadow of their former glory, are still the class that punishes spammy duffuses.

lazycalm.5186:

Runewolf.8456:

pretty easy to kill, just go for the one that isn’t standing still auto attacking you.

By the time you find the right one, you’re downed.
The deception is just too strong in this game. Mesmer was the easiest class I played in PvP, simply because you can do what you want to, most opponents will just be distracted with your clones, spending the she fight trying to target the real you.

Mesmers are a disease in PvP

Go play mesmer in solo queue and earn a respectable ranking. After that you can tell us how easy it is. Don’t drop random words without any proof.

Mesmers are OP

No

Curunen.8729:

lazycalm.5186:

Runewolf.8456:

pretty easy to kill, just go for the one that isn’t standing still auto attacking you.

By the time you find the right one, you’re downed.
The deception is just too strong in this game. Mesmer was the easiest class I played in PvP, simply because you can do what you want to, most opponents will just be distracted with your clones, spending the she fight trying to target the real you.

Mesmers are a disease in PvP

I’m usually polite and never usually one to say this, but in this case…

…L2P.

Anyone who’s played this game for more than 5 minutes (slight exaggeration for effect) will rarely be deceived.

Anyone who’s actually good will never be deceived.

Anyone who is deceived needs to get better.

There’s only one single problem when fighting Mesmer – and that is fluent use of target cycling – pressing the right buttons to reselect the correct target. I will accept this part can be annoying because of the targeting system – but again it’s just a matter of getting used to it. If I can get used to the targeting system in GW2 (and I used to seriously struggle with the tab targeting, being used to games with crosshairs), then anyone can.

Anyone who can’t spot the real Mesmer in ~ 1 second needs to L2P.

You must have been playing Mesmer for so long you can’t even remember how it is to fight against one. The targeting and untargeting mechanic is sick broken, especially in a PvP scneario. The advantage to the Mesmer is huge.
You probably couldn’t win against one, that’s why you joined the band