Guild Wars 2

It’s a bit mental. I was following a LB Ranger in WvW yesterday and she was bursting things down so quickly that I didn’t even have time to get into range before most things were downed. It was hilarious to watch, but I fear this is going to turn even more people to the condi bunker dark-side.

As with every other nerf/buff included in the patch, we need to sit on these changes for longer before calling for more balance.

So uh:

-warrior should have a pretty even fight, especially if the player went with a dueling oriented build. S/S LB or the M/S S/Sh perplexity reflect build

-DD ele can face tank the burst and outheal it. Cantrips FTW

-Mesmer and thief dictate the fight with teleports and stealth. They die if they have the awareness of a chair

-Medi guardian should have a slight edge

-Condi or fear necro has the advantage if he gets into casting range. It is a battle of positioning. Power necro… ugh no idea but Ranger should win this

-Engi has an advantage with all the blocks, reflects, dodges and stuns. Lots of sustain as well with every meta build. Main counter to engineer is condi burst and power ranger has none

This is as far as 1v1 or 1vX goes. As far as zerg combat, Guardian/Warrior/Necro/Ele have been so dominant in the last 2 years that it is nice to see Rangers at least trying to zerg. But the main power of the zerg is not damage, it is sustain and movement. LB ranger does not have either. It is paper and for its ONLY AOE attack it is rooted and dies to reflection.

There is no issue here, just rock-paper-scisors build countering. LB ranger can burst light/medium classes glass builds but it will die to anything that can tank and pour conditions or can outsustain it like medi guard, smart warrior play, DD might ele or SD thief.

my 2c

Ranger longbow is not really OP at all. It is finally up to par imo(tho its still early)and ranger isnt my main, so im not trying keep it op or anything. Sure they can pew pew u from the side in team fights but if anyone looks their way they are goners(assuming they are zerker). Rapid fire can be cc’d, evaded, los and just using a mobility skill around the ranger will mess up rapid fire. But now if you aren’t paying attention the ranger can snipe you out with longbow. Before patch longbow was barely used in pvp so i think this was a good change.

Simple reminder to thief backstab lovers… backstab doesnt have a serious cooldown and is easily spammable, rapid fire isnt. Put bluntly RF is the long deserved tool ranger ned to actualy play a power build effectively the same way warrior runs 2h swords, there is no reason why it should be nerfed. If RF is to have increased channel time it would need that damage increased exponentialy. Same goes for weakened damage the channeling time should decrease as well.

Ran around as condition Ranger using 0/2/6/6/0. Longbow Ranger tried to channel, I dazed him.

Later he tried it again, I dodge rolled.

Later he tried it again, I swapped pets and let my pet eat the non-piercing shots.

Later I line of sighted him.

Later I was in melee so just used sword evade and dagger evade and laughed.

Every time I killed the Ranger.

On my Mesmer I shattered twice and they dissolved to my 4/4/0/0/6 power shatter spec.

On my Warrior I just blocked with Off-hand Sword (or Shield) or dodge rolled and then ate them in melee.

The difference between this and Thief’s attacks from stealth is that I can see the Ranger channeling and react to it. I am already hit by the Thief’s attack before I see him.

I can react to what I can see. I can only channel a block or dodge like a dingbat things that I can’t see. Most channeled blocks sadly don’t last as long as stealth.

T raw.4658:

Wait are people defending 12 -13k bursts coming from on top of a mountain 1500 range away??

ROFLMAO

Too funny

It’s a 2.5 second channel. In that time you can:

1. Dodge, which gives you a .75 evasion window, which gets rid of 2-3 arrows of that burst. Double dodging removes at least 4-6 of them, so you dodged most of the arrows, and thus, most of the burst.

2. Block. Most block skills channel for about 3-4 seconds, which will stop pretty much all of the burst.

3. Reflect. Every reflection skill is 3+ seconds of throwing everything BACK AT THE RANGER. That will cause the ranger to down themselves. Remember, if they’re bursting, they have NO defense.

4. Interrupt. Stopping it in its tracks is always good, especially if you have some long range interrupts or if the Ranger is stupid enough to do it at close range (and many are).

If you do any of these, you can quickly make your way to the ranger and throw him in the one situation he doesn’t want to be in with that bow…close range combat. The Ranger will fold easily at that range.

RyuDragnier.9476:

T raw.4658:

Wait are people defending 12 -13k bursts coming from on top of a mountain 1500 range away??

ROFLMAO

Too funny

It’s a 2.5 second channel. In that time you can:

1. Dodge, which gives you a .75 evasion window, w8hich gets rid of 2-3 arrows of that burst. Double dodging removes at least 4-6 of them, so you dodged most of the arrows, and thus, most of the burst.

2. Block. Most block skills channel for about 3-4 seconds, which will stop pretty much all of the burst.

3. Reflect. Every reflection skill is 3+ seconds of throwing everything BACK AT THE RANGER. That will cause the ranger to down themselves. Remember, if they’re bursting, they have NO defense.

4. Interrupt. Stopping it in its tracks is always good, especially if you have some long range interrupts or if the Ranger is stupid enough to do it at close range (and many are).

If you do any of these, you can quickly make your way to the ranger and throw him in the one situation he doesn’t want to be in with that bow…close range combat. The Ranger will fold easily at that range.

Don’t defend it cause it’ll just make you look bad specially after being on a nerf thief crusade for the last 1.5 years

lol

T raw.4658:

RyuDragnier.9476:

T raw.4658:

Wait are people defending 12 -13k bursts coming from on top of a mountain 1500 range away??

ROFLMAO

Too funny

It’s a 2.5 second channel. In that time you can:

1. Dodge, which gives you a .75 evasion window, w8hich gets rid of 2-3 arrows of that burst. Double dodging removes at least 4-6 of them, so you dodged most of the arrows, and thus, most of the burst.

2. Block. Most block skills channel for about 3-4 seconds, which will stop pretty much all of the burst.

3. Reflect. Every reflection skill is 3+ seconds of throwing everything BACK AT THE RANGER. That will cause the ranger to down themselves. Remember, if they’re bursting, they have NO defense.

4. Interrupt. Stopping it in its tracks is always good, especially if you have some long range interrupts or if the Ranger is stupid enough to do it at close range (and many are).

If you do any of these, you can quickly make your way to the ranger and throw him in the one situation he doesn’t want to be in with that bow…close range combat. The Ranger will fold easily at that range.

Don’t defend it cause it’ll just make you look bad specially after being on a nerf thief crusade for the last 1.5 years

lol

I played Ranger for 8 months, do you know how many times I got taken out because people did all of those things to counter my Rapid Fire when I ran Zerker? Even when I used Quickness before the nerf, I still got countered very easily. The buff to RF is fine.

Also, my only crusade with thieves deals with the D/P stealth spam through Black Powder and Heartseeker. If you’ve noticed, that is the ONLY thing I really feel needs a nerf on thief ATM, quite a bit of the rest of the class needs buffs, including survivability outside of stealth.

Solandri.9640:

PhantomClutch.7825:

Just so I understand.

Everyone defending agrees its ok to do 20k+ damage

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

An exotic longbow has 1000 average base damage.
Rapid Fire’s cumulative skill coefficient is 3.75.
Assume the target’s armor is 1800.
Assume Steady Focus (10% extra damage when endurance full).
Assume Eagle Eye (5% extra damage for longbow). Means no Spotter.
Assume Hunter’s tactics (10% extra damage when flanking).
Assume Peak Strength (10% extra damage when hp over 90%).
Assume Scholar runes (10% extra damage when hp over 90%).
Assume Sigil of Force (5% extra damage).
Assume Sigil of Bloodlust (250 extra power).
Assume 10% vulnerability from Opening Strike (5% + avg 5% from RF)

All those assumptions mandate a 45500 build. Outfitting it with exotic berserker’s armor and ascended berserker’s trinkets yields:
2355 power
51% crit chance
222% crit damage

1000 (2355+250) *3.75 *(1+0.51(2.22-1)) *(1+.1+.1+.1+.05+.05) *1.1 / 1800 = 13,558 damage

Methinks 20k damage from RF is a teensy bit of an exaggeration. I left out food and sharpening stone, but I think it’s pretty clear damage is nowhere near 20k. Maybe if someone else were giving you 25 stacks of might, fury, warrior banners, you might be able to hit 20k. But then you’re not facing a solo ranger, you’re facing a team who is working together to gank you.

to someone in 1.25s (if haste works how I believe it does) just because someone didn’t evade?

No, quickness does not work like that. It used to speed up attacks 100% (halved their time). But that got nerfed down to 50% last year (ranger DPS was hardest hit by that nerf, and they got the least compensation because some of their quickness didn’t get duration extensions).

2.5s becomes 2.5/1.5 = 1.67 sec.

People posting must be bad, it’s rangers did not get a 10% dps buff, they got alot more than 10%. Shortening LB2 by 50% means a straight up 50% dps increase, because you take less time to go through it.

RF wasn’t shorted by 50%. It went from 4 and a half to 2.5s. It was shortened by 44%.

And bear in mind that prior to this change, RF used to do just 93% the DPS of longbow’s autoattack.

Ranger longbow autoattack @ max range is .9/1 = 0.9 coeff/sec
Rapid Fire is 3.75/2.5 = 1.5 coeff/sec
Ratio = 1.67

Warrior GS autoattack is (.77+.7+.9)/2.5 = 0.948 coeff/sec
100 blades is 5.5/3.5 = 1.57 coeff/sec
Ratio = 1.66

Warrior rifle autoattack is .4/.96 = .417 coeff/sec
Volley is 3.0/2.5 = 1.2 coeff/sec
Ratio = 2.88

You really think RF’s extra DPS is out of line for a burst skill?

Also you’re forgetting the free grandmaster trait given to every range using signets, you don’t even need to trait for it, all signets now affect you too.

You mean the change that made signets work for rangers exactly like they’ve always worked for every profession except ranger? You’re trying to say that rangers deserved to have inferior signets compared to every other profession, and so bringing them up to par to everyone else is somehow doing rangers a favor?

Forestgreen.7981:

Also I said 50% damage increase on LB 2 skill specifically, not for the long bow in general. Note rangers got a straight up BUFF, and from what I saw no nerfs on a kitten thing to level the playing field.

RF does exactly the same damage as it did before. It’s just been compressed from 4.5 sec to 2.5 sec. That is, it’s DPS was increased 44%. It’s damage is the same as before.

As a weapon, if you assume longbow autoattack fills in the gaps between RF and Barrage whenever their cooldowns are up, then:

Before:
4.8 coeff / 2.75 sec every 30 sec (Barrage)
3.75 coeff / 4.5 sec every 10 sec (Rapid Fire)
0.9 coeff / 1 sec (autoattack)
= (4.8 + 3.75*3 + .9*13.75) = 28.425 coeff / 30 sec

After:
4.8 coeff / 2.25 sec every 30 sec
3.75 coeff / 2.5 sec every 10 sec
0.9 coeff / 1 sec
= (4.8 + 3.75*3 +.9*19.75) = 33.825 coeff/30 sec

33.825 / 28.425 = 1.19 = 19% damage buff for longbow

So basically, to even get 13-15k burst a ranger has to dedicate his entire build and utilities to one burst every 48 seconds.
AND
Hope that who ever this is happening to is complete trash.

I guess people want there free kills back?

Fyi, I’ve been playing around with swapping hydromancy out. Air adds more damage over time and with the evades available is a bit like how S/D thief applies damage. I still like the chill though, but Air is definitely a strong alternative and you always have crippling on the dagger. The choice here comes down to playtsyle in my opinion. If you’re primarily using S/D to survive and gain range, stick with hydromancy. If you’re primarily swapping to survive and deal damage go with Air sigil.

I also found myself not always getting enough of a benefit out of the vigor after heal and since it’s only and extra 75% bonus to endurance swapping traits to reduce Entangle’s recharge to 48 seconds can be beneficial. I think if you’re expecting to be in a lot of team fights, go with the 48 second entangle.

One other quick note, I’m not sure that the Fury on Weapon swap is applying before Hydromancy Triggers. Hydromancy can crit, but it doesn’t seem like it’s critting at 75% of the time, more like 50%.

Shockwave.1230:

I love it!!!

Played it all day.

Here’s my favorite build, works well so far straight out of being theory crafted and right into the game. Might change it a bit, but it all flows well so far.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQNAT8YnEqQtg2vCOsAVLGoPoW/ABwY3bH4+vfQJrIK-TpBFwACuAAMOIA12fYxRAoaZAAPAAA

Enjoy, it feels broken at the moment lol, so hurry while it lasts.

Edit
I “fixed” the link. The site is doing weird auto language stuff. It now defaults to english.

Edit 2
Some buried in the thread.

Fyi, I’ve been playing around with swapping hydromancy out. Air adds more damage over time and with the evades available is a bit like how S/D thief applies damage. I still like the chill though, but Air is definitely a strong alternative and you always have crippling on the dagger. The choice here comes down to playtsyle in my opinion. If you’re primarily using S/D to survive and gain range, stick with hydromancy. If you’re primarily swapping to survive and deal damage go with Air sigil.

I also found myself not always getting enough of a benefit out of the vigor after heal and since it’s only and extra 75% bonus to endurance swapping traits to reduce Entangle’s recharge to 48 seconds can be beneficial. I think if you’re expecting to be in a lot of team fights, go with the 48 second entangle.

One other quick note, I’m not sure that the Fury on Weapon swap is applying before Hydromancy Triggers. Hydromancy can crit, but it doesn’t seem like it’s critting at 75% of the time, more like 50%.

It’s not OP, it’s just right and can be burned down easily enough with the right skills.

That said Now we have a chance alone and with a group.

Thanks Anet, except for the pet still going to very wrong targets, we are finally given a chance to contribute to our groups.

it’s not op, i tough the same at first when cough by surprise, i see this ranger as a burst sniping, looks great to sniping commanders at wvw from tower/keep,

3, 2, 1, spike.

Actualy this kind of thing helps in tactical play and reduce the number of brainless fight in pvp area. Ive started to see rangers perching on rooftops in pvp and longbow sniping people from where it is very hard to hit them back. I must applaud on the tactical ingeniosity altrought the fact a guy can just hammer me for that much damage from a location strait in face of a control point in sky hammer where i cant in theory reach him witheout doing a long jump puzzle actualy anoys me (note that once im dead he can at any time just jump down of his perch and cap back the point again)

kyubi.3620:

Actualy this kind of thing helps in tactical play and reduce the number of brainless fight in pvp area. Ive started to see rangers perching on rooftops in pvp and longbow sniping people from where it is very hard to hit them back. I must applaud on the tactical ingeniosity altrought the fact a guy can just hammer me for that much damage from a location strait in face of a control point in sky hammer where i cant in theory reach him witheout doing a long jump puzzle actualy anoys me (note that once im dead he can at any time just jump down of his perch and cap back the point again)

Totally not stand still, hit button faceroll.

Totally takes more brains to play than the previously nerfed stuff.

I love this so much guys, you don’t even know.

being in your face, hitting you with short range skills, actively following you to try to down you = OP, pls nerf

camping on ledge and burst damage whenever skill off cooldown = Nah its cool

Azure The Heartless.3261:

kyubi.3620:

Actualy this kind of thing helps in tactical play and reduce the number of brainless fight in pvp area. Ive started to see rangers perching on rooftops in pvp and longbow sniping people from where it is very hard to hit them back. I must applaud on the tactical ingeniosity altrought the fact a guy can just hammer me for that much damage from a location strait in face of a control point in sky hammer where i cant in theory reach him witheout doing a long jump puzzle actualy anoys me (note that once im dead he can at any time just jump down of his perch and cap back the point again)

Totally not stand still, hit button faceroll.

Totally takes more brains to play than the previously nerfed stuff.

I love this so much guys, you don’t even know.

being in your face, hitting you with short range skills, actively following you to try to down you = OP, pls nerf

camping on ledge and burst damage whenever skill off cooldown = Nah its cool

Well previously most team dedicated someone to be a roamer. Now that roamer can deal with the LB ranger. And trust me, unless you wave your hands and jump towards the range from the front, you will be able to deal with him. For ranger to deal really high damage he needs to be made of tissue paper. A sneeze is enough to down him. Rapid fire seems op in itself, but if you look at what it costs to be able to deal that type of damage, I think a LOT of survivability has to be sacrified in the process. So I don’t think its OP. Is it annoying? Yes. OP? No.

nagymbear.5280:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

kyubi.3620:

Actualy this kind of thing helps in tactical play and reduce the number of brainless fight in pvp area. Ive started to see rangers perching on rooftops in pvp and longbow sniping people from where it is very hard to hit them back. I must applaud on the tactical ingeniosity altrought the fact a guy can just hammer me for that much damage from a location strait in face of a control point in sky hammer where i cant in theory reach him witheout doing a long jump puzzle actualy anoys me (note that once im dead he can at any time just jump down of his perch and cap back the point again)

Totally not stand still, hit button faceroll.

Totally takes more brains to play than the previously nerfed stuff.

I love this so much guys, you don’t even know.

being in your face, hitting you with short range skills, actively following you to try to down you = OP, pls nerf

camping on ledge and burst damage whenever skill off cooldown = Nah its cool

Well previously most team dedicated someone to be a roamer. Now that roamer can deal with the LB ranger. And trust me, unless you wave your hands and jump towards the range from the front, you will be able to deal with him. For ranger to deal really high damage he needs to be made of tissue paper. A sneeze is enough to down him. Rapid fire seems op in itself, but if you look at what it costs to be able to deal that type of damage, I think a LOT of survivability has to be sacrified in the process. So I don’t think its OP. Is it annoying? Yes. OP? No.

A tissue paper ranger camping on a ledge that requires significant effort to get to, armed with a push no less, is no different from a tank ranger in terms of how fragile he is, because you cannot hit him if you are not a ranged character.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

nagymbear.5280:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

kyubi.3620:

Actualy this kind of thing helps in tactical play and reduce the number of brainless fight in pvp area. Ive started to see rangers perching on rooftops in pvp and longbow sniping people from where it is very hard to hit them back. I must applaud on the tactical ingeniosity altrought the fact a guy can just hammer me for that much damage from a location strait in face of a control point in sky hammer where i cant in theory reach him witheout doing a long jump puzzle actualy anoys me (note that once im dead he can at any time just jump down of his perch and cap back the point again)

Totally not stand still, hit button faceroll.

Totally takes more brains to play than the previously nerfed stuff.

I love this so much guys, you don’t even know.

being in your face, hitting you with short range skills, actively following you to try to down you = OP, pls nerf

camping on ledge and burst damage whenever skill off cooldown = Nah its cool

Well previously most team dedicated someone to be a roamer. Now that roamer can deal with the LB ranger. And trust me, unless you wave your hands and jump towards the range from the front, you will be able to deal with him. For ranger to deal really high damage he needs to be made of tissue paper. A sneeze is enough to down him. Rapid fire seems op in itself, but if you look at what it costs to be able to deal that type of damage, I think a LOT of survivability has to be sacrified in the process. So I don’t think its OP. Is it annoying? Yes. OP? No.

A tissue paper ranger camping on a ledge that requires significant effort to get to, armed with a push no less, is no different from a tank ranger in terms of how fragile he is, because you cannot hit him if you are not a ranged character.

Plus when you finally get near him he uses all 26 1/2 evades and then jumps away again. lol

MightyMicah.7451:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

nagymbear.5280:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

kyubi.3620:

Actualy this kind of thing helps in tactical play and reduce the number of brainless fight in pvp area. Ive started to see rangers perching on rooftops in pvp and longbow sniping people from where it is very hard to hit them back. I must applaud on the tactical ingeniosity altrought the fact a guy can just hammer me for that much damage from a location strait in face of a control point in sky hammer where i cant in theory reach him witheout doing a long jump puzzle actualy anoys me (note that once im dead he can at any time just jump down of his perch and cap back the point again)

Totally not stand still, hit button faceroll.

Totally takes more brains to play than the previously nerfed stuff.

I love this so much guys, you don’t even know.

being in your face, hitting you with short range skills, actively following you to try to down you = OP, pls nerf

camping on ledge and burst damage whenever skill off cooldown = Nah its cool

Well previously most team dedicated someone to be a roamer. Now that roamer can deal with the LB ranger. And trust me, unless you wave your hands and jump towards the range from the front, you will be able to deal with him. For ranger to deal really high damage he needs to be made of tissue paper. A sneeze is enough to down him. Rapid fire seems op in itself, but if you look at what it costs to be able to deal that type of damage, I think a LOT of survivability has to be sacrified in the process. So I don’t think its OP. Is it annoying? Yes. OP? No.

A tissue paper ranger camping on a ledge that requires significant effort to get to, armed with a push no less, is no different from a tank ranger in terms of how fragile he is, because you cannot hit him if you are not a ranged character.

Plus when you finally get near him he uses all 26 1/2 evades and then jumps away again. lol

+ Goes invisible

is this even a thing

Ok guys 1v1 people shouldn’t really be losing to lb power ranger. They are not that strong but decent in solo encounters. Game not balance around 1v1 so stop bring that up.

The issue lies in group situations there damage is to much considering the range it comes from. There damage in itself is not op. You can get similar number with war hb, thief bs and glass mesmer. Though other classes that want to dish out similar damage to lb ranger has to put themself in danger. Thus not allowing other classes dish out damage as frequently either because they have to spend more time and effort mitigating damage.

Another issue with rangers its allowing players that would otherwise be useless become very useful. For example a bad glassy thief is useless if he want to do burst he has to get into melee ranger and risks getting killed by random aoe damage. Alternatively he can try spaming auto on sb which barely contributes anything.
Ranger damage itself is not the prob its the a combination of: frequecy of rf, range and ease at which they can burst.

Are we balancing for skill or for the lowest common denominator?? When facing a competent opponent the play/counterplay is significantly more complex then the whole “I stand still and pew pew”.

vincecontix.1264:

Ok guys 1v1 people shouldn’t really be losing to lb power ranger. They are not that strong but decent in solo encounters. Game not balance around 1v1 so stop bring that up.

The issue lies in group situations there damage is to much considering the range it comes from. There damage in itself is not op. You can get similar number with war hb, thief bs and glass mesmer. Though other classes that want to dish out similar damage to lb ranger has to put themself in danger. Thus not allowing other classes dish out damage as frequently either because they have to spend more time and effort mitigating damage.

Another issue with rangers its allowing players that would otherwise be useless become very useful. For example a bad glassy thief is useless if he want to do burst he has to get into melee ranger and risks getting killed by random aoe damage. Alternatively he can try spaming auto on sb which barely contributes anything.
Ranger damage itself is not the prob its the a combination of: frequecy of rf, range and ease at which they can burst.

do you know what counters Glass rangers in group Situations Ironicly Onther Glass Rangers or a Ranged Ele using a Warroir/guardian (set up for staff or shield) as a Meatshield [ \o/ ]

Chokolata.1870:

Are we balancing for skill or for the lowest common denominator?? When facing a competent opponent the play/counterplay is significantly more complex then the whole “I stand still and pew pew”.

I don’t know. That’s the whole problem. it seemed like the latter was the case up until the Ranger patch.

THis is actually a pretty well developed thread and not too much “nerf Ranger’s” thread. I think some people have hit the nail on the head in that LB rangers are a support damage class. We dont hold points, we sneak and peek, hit and run. We want to catch you unaware. In tpvp I never see anyone complaining about LB ranger. They evade just as much as they did before but now they are bringing their reflects and playing differently in repects to rangers. I play to win as I am sure everyone else does. If I am stabbing u in the back with a rapid fire or point blanking you off my teammate before you finish him, well, it’s your fault for not paying attention. I play a ranged glass build and know if you can close the distance I will die and Im ok with that. If I amdying but up on your team by 100 points, then kill me all you want but you will have to deal with me and be aware of my location because I will hide from above and afar and wait to kill you. My role is damage dealer and I roam from point to point waiting to catch you napping. I wish they would nerf engi’s and their bombs and turrets!!!!

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

16secs is nothing when you block, dodge and blind

Actually, it’s huge. The Ranger (regardless of the “lengthy” cooldowns – more on that later) has 16s to kill the target while taking virtually -0- damage in return (pet is made mostly useless for damage output but utility is still there). In 16s, you can kill any target that is not actively defending itself for a majority of that time when you are geared for “Glass” Cannon Power (“Glass” is quoted because you are just Cannon Power during your iWin uptime). No class has the equivalent of 16s/Protection boon for more reduced damage.

It’s not per se Longbow and Rapid Fire. It’s the compilation of Longbow Rapid Fire along with Signet of Stone + Protect Me + Dodge/Protection Boon + Evades on melee weapons (and a Signet of Energy and/or Lightning Reflexes too). It’s crazy and it’s not just because of Longbow Rapid Fire. IMO, Rapid Fire is fine compared to the low-skill iWin buttons of SoS and PM chained together.

Now lengthy cooldowns…yeah, see ~60s is not a lengthy cooldown. Warriors have the most comparable utilities (1) Endure Pain at 60s cooldown and (2) Defy Pain a Grandmaster trait at 60s cooldown but uncontrolled (25%). But guess what, Warriors are only 4s in length compared to Ranger’s 6s (a free 4s more!) …but the Warrior has more base health + SoR …well, see Rangers have this wonderful thing called Protection on dodge and Troll Ungent (ergo, 15 point investment for Ranger into Wilderness Survival/Toughness line for Companion’s Defense + 10 in Marksmanship/Power – you know that trait line you are already heavily invested in – versus 30 point investment for Warrior into Defense/Toughness line for Defy Pain).

Do you think that Warriors no damage time is also balanced?

Also, when are people going to start using Rampage as One in their build and realize next to nothing will stop them 1vX for 16s?

Signet of Stone lasts 6s on an 80s CD. Can be traited to give might and have a 64s CD.

Endure pain is a stun breaker and 4s on a 60s CD. Can be traited to give vigor and last 5s.

If you trait signets to give might you cannot take Eagle Eye which is a key trait in the build. If you take signet reduction CD you lose 10% damage when endurance is full. Sure footed is a trait that 99% builds use when playing triple stance warriors. When using more then 1 block skill taking reflection is a good option.

Full glass ranger is so easy to beat it does not warrant any explanation. Protect me is worthless as it kills your pet and you will rarely get more then 3s out of it. Conditions go through SoS active like they do EB.

And the most important part. If the Ranger is taking defensive utilities and he is full glass 66xxx build, he does not have Zephyr and SotW thus not minmaxing and using a worthless build. He cannot burst well enough but is in essence not build for prolonged fights.

If he takes Zephyr and SotW for full burst 1-2 dodges or a block or reflect just defended against a 48-60s CD full burst and you just countered his entire toolkit.

If its anything balanced and actually built for dueling and solo roaming then the so called super mega imba OP duper burst does not exist.

Omg I see this red thingy under a ranger and a signet above his head.

I’m just going to walk away. What’s he going to do, chase me with his gs?

But trust me, a zerker ranger in wvw is nothing. If that makes you cry, a balanced 6/0/2/6/0 ranger is going to make you uninstall the game.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

nagymbear.5280:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

kyubi.3620:

Actualy this kind of thing helps in tactical play and reduce the number of brainless fight in pvp area. Ive started to see rangers perching on rooftops in pvp and longbow sniping people from where it is very hard to hit them back. I must applaud on the tactical ingeniosity altrought the fact a guy can just hammer me for that much damage from a location strait in face of a control point in sky hammer where i cant in theory reach him witheout doing a long jump puzzle actualy anoys me (note that once im dead he can at any time just jump down of his perch and cap back the point again)

Totally not stand still, hit button faceroll.

Totally takes more brains to play than the previously nerfed stuff.

I love this so much guys, you don’t even know.

being in your face, hitting you with short range skills, actively following you to try to down you = OP, pls nerf

camping on ledge and burst damage whenever skill off cooldown = Nah its cool

Well previously most team dedicated someone to be a roamer. Now that roamer can deal with the LB ranger. And trust me, unless you wave your hands and jump towards the range from the front, you will be able to deal with him. For ranger to deal really high damage he needs to be made of tissue paper. A sneeze is enough to down him. Rapid fire seems op in itself, but if you look at what it costs to be able to deal that type of damage, I think a LOT of survivability has to be sacrified in the process. So I don’t think its OP. Is it annoying? Yes. OP? No.

A tissue paper ranger camping on a ledge that requires significant effort to get to, armed with a push no less, is no different from a tank ranger in terms of how fragile he is, because you cannot hit him if you are not a ranged character.

So you’re saying that people can’t deal with zerker shatter memsers in pvp? Because if they can, they can deal with rangers as well. Thieves and mesmers have ways to port to locations others cannot get to quickly. Other profs have options to buy themselves time with invulnerability or reflect. In that time they can finish off who they are fighting, or can go after the ranger. A lonbgow ranger on a ledge far away poses a new choice most people don’t seem to be happy with. It brings a change in what happened before, but I don’t think its the end of the world. If people can find out when they will get a backstab (which good players can), then they will be able to blind the ranger when he uses PBS as well. I fought a necro today in wvw who blinded me on 2-3 PBSs in a row. Either he was very, very, lucky (but what are the odds really) or he knew how to fight me. I think that on similar player skill thief>LB ranger, shatter mesmer>LB ranger. So what seems to be the problem here? All LB ranger has in its favor in the “oh so terrible circumstances” you visualize is position. Take that away and he is nothing.

Kill shot comes in one big spike, rapid fire is a slow spike that warns you and only punishes you if you neglect it completely… Like people in that video. i play ranger but don’t use longbow, but have in the past. Nothing there that couldn’t have been done before patch against people in glass armour that don’t react at all… (Provided you are prepared to die in a stiff breeze so you can post the odd video with some big numbers)

nagymbear.5280:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

nagymbear.5280:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

kyubi.3620:

Actualy this kind of thing helps in tactical play and reduce the number of brainless fight in pvp area. Ive started to see rangers perching on rooftops in pvp and longbow sniping people from where it is very hard to hit them back. I must applaud on the tactical ingeniosity altrought the fact a guy can just hammer me for that much damage from a location strait in face of a control point in sky hammer where i cant in theory reach him witheout doing a long jump puzzle actualy anoys me (note that once im dead he can at any time just jump down of his perch and cap back the point again)

Totally not stand still, hit button faceroll.

Totally takes more brains to play than the previously nerfed stuff.

I love this so much guys, you don’t even know.

being in your face, hitting you with short range skills, actively following you to try to down you = OP, pls nerf

camping on ledge and burst damage whenever skill off cooldown = Nah its cool

Well previously most team dedicated someone to be a roamer. Now that roamer can deal with the LB ranger. And trust me, unless you wave your hands and jump towards the range from the front, you will be able to deal with him. For ranger to deal really high damage he needs to be made of tissue paper. A sneeze is enough to down him. Rapid fire seems op in itself, but if you look at what it costs to be able to deal that type of damage, I think a LOT of survivability has to be sacrified in the process. So I don’t think its OP. Is it annoying? Yes. OP? No.

A tissue paper ranger camping on a ledge that requires significant effort to get to, armed with a push no less, is no different from a tank ranger in terms of how fragile he is, because you cannot hit him if you are not a ranged character.

So you’re saying that people can’t deal with zerker shatter memsers in pvp? Because if they can, they can deal with rangers as well. Thieves and mesmers have ways to port to locations others cannot get to quickly. Other profs have options to buy themselves time with invulnerability or reflect. In that time they can finish off who they are fighting, or can go after the ranger. A lonbgow ranger on a ledge far away poses a new choice most people don’t seem to be happy with. It brings a change in what happened before, but I don’t think its the end of the world. If people can find out when they will get a backstab (which good players can), then they will be able to blind the ranger when he uses PBS as well. I fought a necro today in wvw who blinded me on 2-3 PBSs in a row. Either he was very, very, lucky (but what are the odds really) or he knew how to fight me. I think that on similar player skill thief>LB ranger, shatter mesmer>LB ranger. So what seems to be the problem here? All LB ranger has in its favor in the “oh so terrible circumstances” you visualize is position. Take that away and he is nothing.

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

I am not arguing that Ranger is ‘too strong’ or that buying time is broken. I am arguing that the skill floor for Ranger has been significantly lowered to “perch here, press 2”, and that such a passive means of combat is too heavily rewarded, and that the community that largely decried certain classes having a low skill floor before are now magically silent.

As for rangers being nothing without “perch here, press 2” I’d like to retort with:

Kilger.5490:

Kill shot comes in one big spike, rapid fire is a slow spike that warns you and only punishes you if you neglect it completely… Like people in that video. i play ranger but don’t use longbow, but have in the past. Nothing there that couldn’t have been done before patch against people in glass armour that don’t react at all…

Counter scenario. You are 25% on endurance. Less than one RF’s worth of HP. Old RF: you’d be able to dodge part of it. New RF: you eat all of it before you can dodge again (and down).

I have no problem with this as a mechanic alone. for the purpose of a greater argument though, I have taken issue with it when used in tandem with camping by rangers.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

Neither can Rangers. You have to wait 48+ seconds for the CDs to recharge that allow you to unload significant damage via Rapid Fire.

^ lol this guy thinks rapid fire doesn’t do significant damage on its own or he’s trolling really people well. Either way this is funny to watch, but not worth actually addressing.

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

Neither can Rangers. You have to wait 48+ seconds for the CDs to recharge that allow you to unload significant damage via Rapid Fire.

A full zerk ranger’s rapid fire is significant damage. We can discuss buffing that even more with Signet of the wild another time, but let’s keep this on level ground first.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Kilger.5490:

Kill shot comes in one big spike, rapid fire is a slow spike that warns you and only punishes you if you neglect it completely… Like people in that video. i play ranger but don’t use longbow, but have in the past. Nothing there that couldn’t have been done before patch against people in glass armour that don’t react at all…

Counter scenario. You are 25% on endurance. Less than one RF’s worth of HP. Old RF: you’d be able to dodge part of it. New RF: you eat all of it before you can dodge again (and down).

I have no problem with this as a mechanic alone. for the purpose of a greater argument though, I have taken issue with it when used in tandem with camping by rangers.

lol thats a very very specific scenario… I guess you use block, evade, reflect, stun, cc or any other myriad of abilities.

But really the scenario is more typically… start being hit by rf… before patch…. “dodge and miss 50% damage”, where post patch its “dodge and miss 90% of damage”.

I think the problem is rooted in this: People “want” to neglect rangers, as they always have in the past. Now they cant, and they are mad at the discomfort. Its really simple to dodge rf, then squish the squishy ranger (if hes full zerk). You might have to deal with invul for 6 secs, but then hes squishier than ever.

I’m not gonna quote you since I hate walls of text. I was talking specifically about LB rangers. They will have read the wind and eagle eye traited if they want to “perch here and press 2”, so they will do nothing of the sort that you can see in the linked video. You are affraid that LB rangers will flood sPvP because of their low skill floor? Well then the teams who run with beginner LB rangers will just going to bend over and take it… nothing to worry about, right? Also dealing single target damage from 1500 has become really easy on certain builds (with heavy trait investment, one dimensional play and almost no ways of sustain), that is correct. But LB ranger is not just rapid fire, its just the most obvious side of it. Staying alive on a LB ranger takes skill IMO. Just like staying alive on a backstab thief takes skill as well. LB rangers won’t be as survivable close range as a shatter mesmer or a thief. If you are dedicated to spamming rapid fire you will need utilities to enhance damage (unlike mesmer or thief where you will have utilities to stay alive, or just generally be useful). A LB ranger has very little to offer in team support other then single target range damage. Insert SotW and Quickening Zephyr and you are left with 1 utility and your elite to stay alive with. Sure PBS and Hunter’s shot seem reaaaaly useful… when the fight lasts only 15 seconds.

Kilger.5490:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Kilger.5490:

Kill shot comes in one big spike, rapid fire is a slow spike that warns you and only punishes you if you neglect it completely… Like people in that video. i play ranger but don’t use longbow, but have in the past. Nothing there that couldn’t have been done before patch against people in glass armour that don’t react at all…

Counter scenario. You are 25% on endurance. Less than one RF’s worth of HP. Old RF: you’d be able to dodge part of it. New RF: you eat all of it before you can dodge again (and down).

I have no problem with this as a mechanic alone. for the purpose of a greater argument though, I have taken issue with it when used in tandem with camping by rangers.

lol thats a very very specific scenario… I guess you use block, evade, reflect, stun, cc or any other myriad of abilities.

But really the scenario is more typically… start being hit by rf… before patch…. “dodge and miss 50% damage”, where post patch its “dodge and miss 90% of damage”.

If you can dodge; if not then it’s the inverse. ;3 Blocks would work in that scenario, though; yes.

Meanwhile the ranger has not moved from his perch~

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Meanwhile the ranger has not moved from his perch~

The funny thing is, in that video, people that run towards him (cliff face anyway), or back up into his kill zone. He is shooting at max range and cannot pursue. All that needs to be done is move away. Now hes useless and can do nothing. Literally nothing.

nagymbear.5280:

I’m not gonna quote you since I hate walls of text. I was talking specifically about LB rangers. They will have read the wind and eagle eye traited if they want to “perch here and press 2”, so they will do nothing of the sort that you can see in the linked video. You are affraid that LB rangers will flood sPvP because of their low skill floor? Well then the teams who run with beginner LB rangers will just going to bend over and take it… nothing to worry about, right? Also dealing single target damage from 1500 has become really easy on certain builds (with heavy trait investment, one dimensional play and almost no ways of sustain), that is correct. But LB ranger is not just rapid fire, its just the most obvious side of it. Staying alive on a LB ranger takes skill IMO. Just like staying alive on a backstab thief takes skill as well. LB rangers won’t be as survivable close range as a shatter mesmer or a thief. If you are dedicated to spamming rapid fire you will need utilities to enhance damage (unlike mesmer or thief where you will have utilities to stay alive, or just generally be useful). A LB ranger has very little to offer in team support other then single target range damage. Insert SotW and Quickening Zephyr and you are left with 1 utility and your elite to stay alive with. Sure PBS and Hunter’s shot seem reaaaaly useful… when the fight lasts only 15 seconds.

I’m not afraid of flooding or anything. I’m also not speaking about utilities at all, as flat zerker ranger damage is significant to be an aid in a fight. My argument is simply regarding why there is a high level of acceptance for Rangers having a skill floor lowered to the point that they can be largely effective by "spamming rapid fire’’, when apparently “faceroll easy” strategies are the most abhorrent thing on the earth to the community looking for balance.

Rangers needing anything but fullzerk to enhance their RF damage is frankly untrue.

Kilger.5490:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Meanwhile the ranger has not moved from his perch~

The funny thing is, in that video, people that run towards him (cliff face anyway), or back up into his kill zone. He is shooting at max range and cannot pursue. All that needs to be done is move away. Now hes useless and can do nothing. Literally nothing.

So “don’t engage him” is the winning strategy of the day?
I havent watched that movie though, I’m glad to see it’s relevant to my interests.

If you’re talking about the video I posted, I was mainly referring to the fact that a fullzerk ranger is cleaning warrior house with a greatsword. which means they have notable close range combat capability.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

So “don’t engage him” is the winning strategy of the day?
I havent watched that movie though, I’m glad to see it’s relevant to my interests.

If you’re talking about the video I posted, I was mainly referring to the fact that a fullzerk ranger is cleaning warrior house with a greatsword. which means they have notable close range combat capability.

Yep close range combat is much better imo which is where I like to play. Zerk RF is a gimmick that produces big qq due to very circumstantial situations. If you dont engage him, it makes him a null factor …If someone wants to waste their time sitting up on a perch somewhere whats that to me?

Glad to see a GS ranger beating a warrior, though if you can get past the stuns its never been the hardest fight for a ranger.

Kilger.5490:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

So “don’t engage him” is the winning strategy of the day?
I havent watched that movie though, I’m glad to see it’s relevant to my interests.

If you’re talking about the video I posted, I was mainly referring to the fact that a fullzerk ranger is cleaning warrior house with a greatsword. which means they have notable close range combat capability.

Yep close range combat is much better imo which is where I like to play. Zerk RF is a gimmick that produces big qq due to very circumstantial situations. If you dont engage him, it makes him a null factor …If someone wants to waste their time sitting up on a perch somewhere whats that to me?

Glad to see a GS ranger beating a warrior, though if you can get past the stuns its never been the hardest fight for a ranger.

If the perch is within range of a key objective (say, a PVP point) then you cannot ignore said ranger.

My problem is not with skillful displays such as the GS ranger, though. That’s pretty bad-kitten .

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

Neither can Rangers. You have to wait 48+ seconds for the CDs to recharge that allow you to unload significant damage via Rapid Fire.

A full zerk ranger’s rapid fire is significant damage. We can discuss buffing that even more with Signet of the wild another time, but let’s keep this on level ground first.

A full zerk anything in PvP is a non-factor. They die if you breathe in their direction (that’s why they are called “glass cannons”… lots of damage potential but super easy to break when hit).

If full zerkers are regularly giving you problems in PvP, you need to get more experience in PvP because you are doing something wrong.

If someone has a position advantage, you should be countering that with a push, a pull, or a different position of your own.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

If the perch is within range of a key objective (say, a PVP point) then you cannot ignore said ranger.

Ive never had a problem closing at spvp ranges, then laying the smackdown. Some will give a good fight but thats with a lot of skill and not simple zerk rf spamming.

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

Neither can Rangers. You have to wait 48+ seconds for the CDs to recharge that allow you to unload significant damage via Rapid Fire.

A full zerk ranger’s rapid fire is significant damage. We can discuss buffing that even more with Signet of the wild another time, but let’s keep this on level ground first.

A full zerk anything in PvP is a non-factor. They die if you breathe in their direction (that’s why they are called “glass cannons”… lots of damage potential but super easy to break when hit).

If full zerkers are regularly giving you problems in PvP, you need to get more experience in PvP because you are doing something wrong.

If someone has a position advantage, you should be countering that with a push, a pull, or a different position of your own.

I do not have a problem with Rangers in pvp. I ‘have a problem’ with the ease of which they can be effective, as I stated before. And, also as I mentioned before, being able to dole out reasonable damage from a perch that is difficult to access, while pushing away any classes that attempt to get near you requires very little skill.

Warriors do not have pushes or pulls. None that can be done from long range at least.

When you take two newbies and one is a LB glass ranger, then yes spamming rapid fire is easy and effective.

When you take two experienced players and one is a LB glass ranger, the way the battle works is very complex.
First comes positional play with the ranger trying to get a high ground advantage while the opponents are trying to flank him or use CC on him. Short term they cut around corners.
Secondly, there are already innate counters in every meta build.
-The engi has the toolkit and shield,
-elementalist has magnetic aura, focus projectile blocks or is simply very beefy with sustain and teleports/charges allowing multiple jousts through the ranger.
-Guardian cannot be killed by a ranger. Properly built and played anchor guardians can take hits all day long against 2 players. Medi guardian is a direct PvP counter to LB GC ranger.
-The thief is the anti glass king in this game. Only if you catch him fighting someone else can u take him out. A skilled thief is epilepsy inducing.

The problem is only in WvW with super high might stacking, when roaming and when you catch someone fighting someone else. But then its a 2v1.

PvP is fine!!!, and PvP is what you balance this game for

Chokolata.1870:

-The thief is the anti glass king in this game. Only if you catch him fighting someone else can u take him out. A skilled thief is epilepsy inducing.
PvP is fine!!!, and PvP is what you balance this game for

Probably the best line about thieves I have ever heard and so very true!! I find it so funny that everyone is still hating rangers. Being new to this game, does this happen with every new buff or nerf to each class? I hope so because I have never seen so much complaining about a class. Seems most are upset they don’t have an “easy” kill anymore.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

Neither can Rangers. You have to wait 48+ seconds for the CDs to recharge that allow you to unload significant damage via Rapid Fire.

A full zerk ranger’s rapid fire is significant damage. We can discuss buffing that even more with Signet of the wild another time, but let’s keep this on level ground first.

A full zerk anything in PvP is a non-factor. They die if you breathe in their direction (that’s why they are called “glass cannons”… lots of damage potential but super easy to break when hit).

If full zerkers are regularly giving you problems in PvP, you need to get more experience in PvP because you are doing something wrong.

If someone has a position advantage, you should be countering that with a push, a pull, or a different position of your own.

I do not have a problem with Rangers in pvp. I ‘have a problem’ with the ease of which they can be effective, as I stated before. And, also as I mentioned before, being able to dole out reasonable damage from a perch that is difficult to access, while pushing away any classes that attempt to get near you requires very little skill.

Warriors do not have pushes or pulls. None that can be done from long range at least.

So what change brought the skill floor down for rangers in your oppinion? Because they could rapidfire with Read the Wind and Eagle Eye from a ledge before patch as well. The reduction of the channel time lowered the skill floor of rangers to a level where it is too low? I’m not sure I follow. You say low risk high reward builds are bad for pvp. True. But what effect will this have in a pvp match between equally skilled players? I think none. At a tournament people won’t play LB ranger because its easy to pick up. Well some will, but they won’t get far unless they play a LB ranger to its best. And even then I think its place in tournament play is questionable. And soloq is just a mess. You can still run into organized groups with a pug, so I don’t think that is anything to go by.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Rangers needing anything but fullzerk to enhance their RF damage is frankly untrue.

Sure, if 5k damage on a 2.5s channel is your thing you can do that.

The proper term is “Sentai”.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

Neither can Rangers. You have to wait 48+ seconds for the CDs to recharge that allow you to unload significant damage via Rapid Fire.

A full zerk ranger’s rapid fire is significant damage. We can discuss buffing that even more with Signet of the wild another time, but let’s keep this on level ground first.

A full zerk anything in PvP is a non-factor. They die if you breathe in their direction (that’s why they are called “glass cannons”… lots of damage potential but super easy to break when hit).

If full zerkers are regularly giving you problems in PvP, you need to get more experience in PvP because you are doing something wrong.

If someone has a position advantage, you should be countering that with a push, a pull, or a different position of your own.

I do not have a problem with Rangers in pvp. I ‘have a problem’ with the ease of which they can be effective, as I stated before. And, also as I mentioned before, being able to dole out reasonable damage from a perch that is difficult to access, while pushing away any classes that attempt to get near you requires very little skill.

Warriors do not have pushes or pulls. None that can be done from long range at least.

I’ve been dealing with these rangers all kittening night in PvP. All they do is climb up a ledge over looking a point and pew pew pew ftw. It’s really lame and toxic gameplay. It really sucks as a warrior cause our pushes and pulls have a short range. By the time you get up there you have -50% health and 10 stacks of vulnerablitlity. The only real option is to go fight somewhere else. I hope Anet nerfs the kitten out of those builds in 6 months.