Guild Wars 2

As a (much hated) thief, I welcome buffed LB rangers. Really.

Sure, they are real pain in the rear if you are caught off-guarded by those from opposing servers, but (power * snicker *) rangers are great for anti-siege raiding to take out bothersome trebs. It’s a double edged sword, but I’m always for points than individual kill tally.

• cast blinding powder and shadow step away from incoming flames *

Julie Yann.5379:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

Neither can Rangers. You have to wait 48+ seconds for the CDs to recharge that allow you to unload significant damage via Rapid Fire.

A full zerk ranger’s rapid fire is significant damage. We can discuss buffing that even more with Signet of the wild another time, but let’s keep this on level ground first.

A full zerk anything in PvP is a non-factor. They die if you breathe in their direction (that’s why they are called “glass cannons”… lots of damage potential but super easy to break when hit).

If full zerkers are regularly giving you problems in PvP, you need to get more experience in PvP because you are doing something wrong.

If someone has a position advantage, you should be countering that with a push, a pull, or a different position of your own.

I do not have a problem with Rangers in pvp. I ‘have a problem’ with the ease of which they can be effective, as I stated before. And, also as I mentioned before, being able to dole out reasonable damage from a perch that is difficult to access, while pushing away any classes that attempt to get near you requires very little skill.

Warriors do not have pushes or pulls. None that can be done from long range at least.

I’ve been dealing with these rangers all kittening night in PvP. All they do is climb up a ledge over looking a point and pew pew pew ftw. It’s really lame and toxic gameplay. It really sucks as a warrior cause our pushes and pulls have a short range. By the time you get up there you have -50% health and 10 stacks of vulnerablitlity. The only real option is to go fight somewhere else. I hope Anet nerfs the kitten out of those builds in 6 months.

So…why haven’t you been on that ledge awaiting their attempt to be up there? If you know they’re going there, ambush them and take them out while they’re up there.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Julie Yann.5379:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

Neither can Rangers. You have to wait 48+ seconds for the CDs to recharge that allow you to unload significant damage via Rapid Fire.

A full zerk ranger’s rapid fire is significant damage. We can discuss buffing that even more with Signet of the wild another time, but let’s keep this on level ground first.

A full zerk anything in PvP is a non-factor. They die if you breathe in their direction (that’s why they are called “glass cannons”… lots of damage potential but super easy to break when hit).

If full zerkers are regularly giving you problems in PvP, you need to get more experience in PvP because you are doing something wrong.

If someone has a position advantage, you should be countering that with a push, a pull, or a different position of your own.

I do not have a problem with Rangers in pvp. I ‘have a problem’ with the ease of which they can be effective, as I stated before. And, also as I mentioned before, being able to dole out reasonable damage from a perch that is difficult to access, while pushing away any classes that attempt to get near you requires very little skill.

Warriors do not have pushes or pulls. None that can be done from long range at least.

I’ve been dealing with these rangers all kittening night in PvP. All they do is climb up a ledge over looking a point and pew pew pew ftw. It’s really lame and toxic gameplay. It really sucks as a warrior cause our pushes and pulls have a short range. By the time you get up there you have -50% health and 10 stacks of vulnerablitlity. The only real option is to go fight somewhere else. I hope Anet nerfs the kitten out of those builds in 6 months.

So…why haven’t you been on that ledge awaiting their attempt to be up there? If you know they’re going there, ambush them and take them out while they’re up there.

1. I suck at jps
2. The time I waste waiting for said ranger who may or may not show up is time where I am not doing anything productive for the team.
3. All the Ranger has to do then is pew pew me from down below at 1500range.

Do you have any other smart strategy to suggest?

I play full glass 6/6/2/0/0…but then again, I also played it before the patch as well (post read-the-wind though)

Julie Yann.5379:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Julie Yann.5379:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

Neither can Rangers. You have to wait 48+ seconds for the CDs to recharge that allow you to unload significant damage via Rapid Fire.

A full zerk ranger’s rapid fire is significant damage. We can discuss buffing that even more with Signet of the wild another time, but let’s keep this on level ground first.

A full zerk anything in PvP is a non-factor. They die if you breathe in their direction (that’s why they are called “glass cannons”… lots of damage potential but super easy to break when hit).

If full zerkers are regularly giving you problems in PvP, you need to get more experience in PvP because you are doing something wrong.

If someone has a position advantage, you should be countering that with a push, a pull, or a different position of your own.

I do not have a problem with Rangers in pvp. I ‘have a problem’ with the ease of which they can be effective, as I stated before. And, also as I mentioned before, being able to dole out reasonable damage from a perch that is difficult to access, while pushing away any classes that attempt to get near you requires very little skill.

Warriors do not have pushes or pulls. None that can be done from long range at least.

I’ve been dealing with these rangers all kittening night in PvP. All they do is climb up a ledge over looking a point and pew pew pew ftw. It’s really lame and toxic gameplay. It really sucks as a warrior cause our pushes and pulls have a short range. By the time you get up there you have -50% health and 10 stacks of vulnerablitlity. The only real option is to go fight somewhere else. I hope Anet nerfs the kitten out of those builds in 6 months.

So…why haven’t you been on that ledge awaiting their attempt to be up there? If you know they’re going there, ambush them and take them out while they’re up there.

1. I suck at jps
2. The time I waste waiting for said ranger who may or may not show up is time where I am not doing anything productive for the team.
3. All the Ranger has to do then is pew pew me from down below at 1500range.

Do you have any other smart strategy to suggest?

1. Nothing to do with LB rangers, so even if relevant for you, doesn’t affect LB ranger viability.
2. In an organized group people will let each other know in TS where the ranger is and will be able to deal with them. I’d say if LB rangers become a thing in high level play (which I doubt) good teams will find a way to deal with rangers on those hard to reach points.
3. If you fight like a sentry in wvw, you die like one… no offence. You have to stay on point? Tough luck. I fought decap engies which resulted in the same, except they forced you off point with cc instead of damage. Ranger doesn’t have that many options to get you off point via cc.

Julie Yann.5379:

1. I suck at jps

Not to be mean or anything, but if you’re so bad at using the spacebar that you physically can’t keep up with the ranger and climb to get to him, isn’t that kind of a learn to play issue on your end? You lack a vital skill to pvp effectively.

You’d also be equally dead if it was my staff elementalist up there bombarding the point. Or a staff necro or grenade engineer condi bombing you. Or even a rifle warrior using Volley followed by Kill Shot. There are a lot of professions that can and do exploit terrain and find perches to unleash their damage from. This isn’t even close to ranger specific, and has plenty of counters ranging from climbing up after them and forcing them to leave said perch, or using a pull attack to get them down.

Ehecatl.9172:

Julie Yann.5379:

1. I suck at jps

Not to be mean or anything, but if you’re so bad at using the spacebar that you physically can’t keep up with the ranger and climb to get to him, isn’t that kind of a learn to play issue on your end? You lack a vital skill to pvp effectively.

You’d also be equally dead if it was my staff elementalist up there bombarding the point. Or a staff necro or grenade engineer condi bombing you. Or even a rifle warrior using Volley followed by Kill Shot. There are a lot of professions that can and do exploit terrain and find perches to unleash their damage from. This isn’t even close to ranger specific, and has plenty of counters ranging from climbing up after them and forcing them to leave said perch, or using a pull attack to get them down.

I’m actually not that bad a JPs but I was over exaggerating a little I’m actually not bad at them if I am not in combat getting crippled or chilled or feared etc.

None of those other class can unleash hell at 1500 range. To force them off their perch as a warrior you need to be at least 600 range you have to get pretty close.

I will grab my ranger and perch myself on some of the places I saw them on and shoot at you while you are trying to climb up and see how well you do. To force them off their perch as a warrior you need to be at least 600 range you have to get pretty close.

Androlan.9487:

Chokolata.1870:

-The thief is the anti glass king in this game. Only if you catch him fighting someone else can u take him out. A skilled thief is epilepsy inducing.
PvP is fine!!!, and PvP is what you balance this game for

Probably the best line about thieves I have ever heard and so very true!! I find it so funny that everyone is still hating rangers. Being new to this game, does this happen with every new buff or nerf to each class? I hope so because I have never seen so much complaining about a class. Seems most are upset they don’t have an “easy” kill anymore.

A good thief can also melt any bunker, but that thief roles.

Julie Yann.5379:

1. I suck at jps
2. The time I waste waiting for said ranger who may or may not show up is time where I am not doing anything productive for the team.
3. All the Ranger has to do then is pew pew me from down below at 1500range.

Do you have any other smart strategy to suggest?

Why is your team leaving you to defend/capture a point that is guarded by a tactically placed ranged unit when you are a melee warrior?

If your build is weak to ranged units, you shouldn’t be trying to face-tank ranged damage. Get someone else over to that point and move to an area where you can contribute.

Everytime there is a proffession balance update (which there was) some builds will lose there effectiveness. Could it be that your build has lost some effectiveness in this recent update?

Kilger.5490:

I think the problem is rooted in this: People “want” to neglect rangers, as they always have in the past. Now they cant, and they are mad at the discomfort. Its really simple to dodge rf, then squish the squishy ranger (if hes full zerk). You might have to deal with invul for 6 secs, but then hes squishier than ever.

You’re wrong. Rangers are not squishy with traiting and have the DPS at range.

It’s not 6s (double that). And it’s not even invuln so…

And it’s also not Rapid Fire alone.

It’s Rapid Fire’s damage/range with excessive no damage utilities and since the update, Rangers have better defenses than a Warrior (for slightly less trait point investment) … yep, I said it. It’s even amplified further if you forget Longbow and just use Evade weapons (more defense) … or use GS (more Evade) and burst with Maul or use Axe offhand range instead cuz it is just as bursty, pierces and has short cooldown control And in a pet knockdown and fear/immobilize and you win or you kite/win.

That’s what annoys me. It’s not that Rangers were ignored before the update and people are screaming now. It’s that no consideration was given to the balance of one major change at a time. It’s ‘lets buff majorly 5 different things with Rangers’ when it should have been 2.

By the way, do you honestly think prepatch Warrior was balanced? ANet sure didn’t think so.

nagymbear.5280:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

Neither can Rangers. You have to wait 48+ seconds for the CDs to recharge that allow you to unload significant damage via Rapid Fire.

A full zerk ranger’s rapid fire is significant damage. We can discuss buffing that even more with Signet of the wild another time, but let’s keep this on level ground first.

A full zerk anything in PvP is a non-factor. They die if you breathe in their direction (that’s why they are called “glass cannons”… lots of damage potential but super easy to break when hit).

If full zerkers are regularly giving you problems in PvP, you need to get more experience in PvP because you are doing something wrong.

If someone has a position advantage, you should be countering that with a push, a pull, or a different position of your own.

I do not have a problem with Rangers in pvp. I ‘have a problem’ with the ease of which they can be effective, as I stated before. And, also as I mentioned before, being able to dole out reasonable damage from a perch that is difficult to access, while pushing away any classes that attempt to get near you requires very little skill.

Warriors do not have pushes or pulls. None that can be done from long range at least.

So what change brought the skill floor down for rangers in your oppinion? Because they could rapidfire with Read the Wind and Eagle Eye from a ledge before patch as well. The reduction of the channel time lowered the skill floor of rangers to a level where it is too low? I’m not sure I follow. You say low risk high reward builds are bad for pvp. True. But what effect will this have in a pvp match between equally skilled players? I think none. At a tournament people won’t play LB ranger because its easy to pick up. Well some will, but they won’t get far unless they play a LB ranger to its best. And even then I think its place in tournament play is questionable. And soloq is just a mess. You can still run into organized groups with a pug, so I don’t think that is anything to go by.

the bolded is exactly what I am focusing on.

Yes. the cast time is too low now. The buff to signets and traits were all well and good, but in tandem with an 8sec skill that takes 2.5 seconds to cast, rangers have become an asset to a game with very little effort on the part of their player by making their way to a hard to reach area and unloading skill2 on anyone within range. being stuck channeling a skill for 5 seconds required people to weigh the risks that they might be bursted down. Now, there is very little risk and significantly less foresight, planning, and timing involved in the very lowest proficiency required to be effective with lb.

Rangers needed to be stronger, yes. They didn’t need to become easier to play. I figured “facerolling” was an abhorrent thing to the community that was concerned about balance.

@Artaz

I certainly think that warrior was closer to balance than it is now. Yes, the adrenaline not being spent on whiffing was an issue, but majorly because people could just use it to spam burst over and over. Anet seemed to forget that adrenaline and its state are directly tied to whether many warrior traits work at all. People said that warriors played passively, but our effectiveness depended largely on managing the state of that bar properly. Instead of adjusting the damage of Hammer/longbow and probably putting burst skills on a shared/higher cooldown if they missed, Anet addressed the face of the issue and gutted the core mechanic of the class, which not only did nothing to fix the issue of hambow but somehow managed to cripple every warrior that wasnt using the problem playstyle.

And then people had the -audacity- to crow “well, you should just time your bursts better, hurr” Like landing one highly telegraphed strike on a class like, say a thief, is even kittening possible if he’s above bear rank

So. Anet didnt think there was balance. but they were still wrong in how they fixed it, imo. Their purpose for the patch was to “coax warriors into using adrenaline.”

lol, nope

Azure The Heartless.3261:

@Artaz

I certainly think that warrior was closer to balance than it is now. Yes, the adrenaline not being spent on whiffing was an issue, but majorly because people could just use it to spam burst over and over. Anet seemed to forget that adrenaline and its state are directly tied to whether many warrior traits work at all. People said that warriors played passively, but our effectiveness depended largely on managing the state of that bar properly. Instead of adjusting the damage of Hammer/longbow and probably putting burst skills on a shared/higher cooldown if they missed, Anet addressed the face of the issue and gutted the core mechanic of the class, which not only did nothing to fix the issue of hambow but somehow managed to cripple every warrior that wasnt using the problem playstyle.

And then people had the -audacity- to crow “well, you should just time your bursts better, hurr” Like landing one highly telegraphed strike on a class like, say a thief, is even kittening possible if he’s above bear rank

So. Anet didnt think there was balance. but they were still wrong in how they fixed it, imo. Their purpose for the patch was to “coax warriors into using adrenaline.”

lol, nope

Tangent:

Warriors needed a tweak to Adrenaline cooldowns but not a loss if miss. ANet decided a year+ ago that Adrenaline abilities needed to be used more often (buffed) and changed Discipline to reduce Adrenaline ability cooldowns and then ANet changed Burst Mastery to even make it more lopsided. And added more tweaks to Adrenaline gaining traits (i.e. Thrill of the Kill, there are far more) or utilities (Berserker’s Stance).

Shared Adrenaline cooldowns would have been an easy tweak and I agree it should have been done. Another option is simply to have a miss cost the Warrior 10 adrenaline strikes and not a full 30. Same outcome, less tweaked power for the Warrior and a consequence. It’s a smaller jump and not a cliff dive.

Warriors also needed a mobility nerf for a counter defensive swap. This could easily be done by changing Rush on Greatsword to a block/Adrenaline strike gain. If you wanted to get really creative, add a target pull to Bladetrail to help with the Warriors now lack of long-range melee weapon distant closers on Greatsword. Done.

Well, at least until ANet starts looking at all the underutilized traits/utilities (including the new GM traits) but that goes for every class.

Artaz.3819:

You’re wrong. Rangers are not squishy with traiting and have the DPS at range.

It’s not 6s (double that). And it’s not even invuln so…

And it’s also not Rapid Fire alone.

It’s Rapid Fire’s damage/range with excessive no damage utilities and since the update, Rangers have better defenses than a Warrior (for slightly less trait point investment) … yep, I said it. It’s even amplified further if you forget Longbow and just use Evade weapons (more defense) … or use GS (more Evade) and burst with Maul or use Axe offhand range instead cuz it is just as bursty, pierces and has short cooldown control And in a pet knockdown and fear/immobilize and you win or you kite/win.

That’s what annoys me. It’s not that Rangers were ignored before the update and people are screaming now. It’s that no consideration was given to the balance of one major change at a time. It’s ‘lets buff majorly 5 different things with Rangers’ when it should have been 2.

By the way, do you honestly think prepatch Warrior was balanced? ANet sure didn’t think so.

It seems to me mostly qq about rapid fire, the rest was there before the patch, in some cases moderately buffed. “Protect me” isnt a great invul so not many take it since pet dies too fast under any kind of pressure.

I dont know much about the warrior but they still dominate the wvw so they are probably still fine.

Kilger.5490:

I dont know much about the warrior but they still dominate the wvw so they are probably still fine.

I’d like to personally say they are not, and that the reason they are not is because they were placed where they are by people who also do not know much about how the class functions, but thought that the wacky losses they were experiencing couldn’t possibly be due to actual skill. So they went to the wiki, read up on skills and traits and started going “ooh that sounds too strong, I dont like that! Nerf please!” Many warrior players have significant experience being stupid-nerfed (that is, nerfed to the point that playing one would require insanity, impressive dedication or ignorance), though, so they still appear to function in specific settings.

Either that or hammer is OP. idk. whatever the people who are ‘underpowered’ want I guess.

Digression though. This isnt a warrior thread. This is about the pretty Ranger class.

Julie Yann.5379:

I’m actually not that bad a JPs but I was over exaggerating a little I’m actually not bad at them if I am not in combat getting crippled or chilled or feared etc.

None of those other class can unleash hell at 1500 range. To force them off their perch as a warrior you need to be at least 600 range you have to get pretty close.

I will grab my ranger and perch myself on some of the places I saw them on and shoot at you while you are trying to climb up and see how well you do. To force them off their perch as a warrior you need to be at least 600 range you have to get pretty close.

My elementalist sure can, actually. If you can still stand on point while sitting in my lava font ticking away as meteors smack you in the face and my fireballs blowing you away then you sir are an immortal. Not to mention that the longer I sit there the more might I’ll be building up from attunement swapping and the harder I’ll be hitting, and as an ele I have much stronger control effects to keep you away than a ranger does. Had to blow more skills and probably took longer, but that’s the price you pay for having all your high damage skills be AoE as opposed to Rapid Fire being single target.

A ranged profession built for damage sitting on a perch can’t be ignored. In fact I’d argue it shouldn’t be possible to ignore them. We’re talking about a build that is completely dedicated to damage that can’t function properly in melee range. If their ranged damage can’t even kill a full melee who can’t get into melee range then the ranged player is woefully underpowered.

Not to mention that if you decided to roll with dual melee weapon sets then this is the massive, gaping hole in your build that you chose to not cover up. You brought no long or mid-range weapons to deal with perched ranged users and honestly should be punished for that.

There’s also a tactic you can use on most points in SPVP. If you’re defending a point against a ranger just leave the point and go behind cover. For example in Temple of the Silent Storm on mid. Ranger is sitting on top of the tunnel entrance and you’re on point. Leave the point and stand behind one of the torches. The ranger suddenly can’t do any damage to you short of the AoE, which you should be able to survive. What is the ranger gonna do? He can’t come down and de-cap the point because you can then easily engage him. If he stands there pew pewing he isn’t contributing to the game and you’re still defending the point from him. You might not get the kill but he’ll have to leave the point uncaptured, thus you have won.

That much damage from that range and that fast is broken

mtpelion.4562:

Julie Yann.5379:

1. I suck at jps
2. The time I waste waiting for said ranger who may or may not show up is time where I am not doing anything productive for the team.
3. All the Ranger has to do then is pew pew me from down below at 1500range.

Do you have any other smart strategy to suggest?

Why is your team leaving you to defend/capture a point that is guarded by a tactically placed ranged unit when you are a melee warrior?

If your build is weak to ranged units, you shouldn’t be trying to face-tank ranged damage. Get someone else over to that point and move to an area where you can contribute.

Have you ever tried to get communication and cooperation in SoloQ?

If you read my original post you will see that I know fighting somewhere else is the only thing to do.

My build isn’t weak to ranged units when they are within 1200 and I can close the gap but having these guys perch up on top of a pillar like a bunch of wet kitten just spamming their keys off CD claiming easy kills while their pets and teammates do all the tanking down below is cheap gameplay. Those playing in such a way are excluded from any GG spoken at the end of the match.

@Ehecatl Every one of my PvP build has a longbow. It is a mandatory weapon to be any kind of viable at the moment and I do hide behind pillars and stuff (thats point defense 101) but the thing is I am stuck waiting there until one of his friends shows up and I either run and leave the point to be capture or kill his friend and die in the process leaving the point to be captured. The whole that Ranger has done almost nothing and gets rewarded for it.

T raw.4658:

That much damage from that range and that fast is broken

How much damage wouldn’t be broken?

Atherakhia.4086:

T raw.4658:

That much damage from that range and that fast is broken

How much damage wouldn’t be broken?

Eles Damage just as fast if they arn’t always playing D/d :p

Atherakhia.4086:

T raw.4658:

That much damage from that range and that fast is broken

How much damage wouldn’t be broken?

The same amount of damage without 10 stacks of vulnerability would probably be fine. It’s not RF that kills you, it’s the 2 or 3 blow that follow. that amount of damage plus 10 stacks of vul (10sec) on a 10sec CD. Doesn’t any of that appear OP to anyone?

Julie Yann.5379:

Atherakhia.4086:

T raw.4658:

That much damage from that range and that fast is broken

How much damage wouldn’t be broken?

The same amount of damage without 10 stacks of vulnerability would probably be fine. It’s not RF that kills you, it’s the 2 or 3 blow that follow. that amount of damage plus 10 stacks of vul (10sec) on a 10sec CD. Doesn’t any of that appear OP to anyone?

So what’s your suggestion? Move the vuln to another weapon skill on the longbow? Or just straight up remove it entirely?

Atherakhia.4086:

Julie Yann.5379:

Atherakhia.4086:

T raw.4658:

That much damage from that range and that fast is broken

How much damage wouldn’t be broken?

The same amount of damage without 10 stacks of vulnerability would probably be fine. It’s not RF that kills you, it’s the 2 or 3 blow that follow. that amount of damage plus 10 stacks of vul (10sec) on a 10sec CD. Doesn’t any of that appear OP to anyone?

So what’s your suggestion? Move the vuln to another weapon skill on the longbow? Or just straight up remove it entirely?

Any 1 of these combinations

1. Increase base damage slighty + remove vuln. completely

2. Keep the same damage+ swap vuln. with cripple from Barrage.

3. Reduce the damage slightly+reduce the amount and duration on vuln.

We don’t want to make it weak and useless. It just needs to be toned down. To have the ability to inflict perma 10 stacks of vulnerability with a high damage low CD skill is too strong.

Atherakhia.4086:

Julie Yann.5379:

Atherakhia.4086:

T raw.4658:

That much damage from that range and that fast is broken

How much damage wouldn’t be broken?

The same amount of damage without 10 stacks of vulnerability would probably be fine. It’s not RF that kills you, it’s the 2 or 3 blow that follow. that amount of damage plus 10 stacks of vul (10sec) on a 10sec CD. Doesn’t any of that appear OP to anyone?

So what’s your suggestion? Move the vuln to another weapon skill on the longbow? Or just straight up remove it entirely?

The vuln came from hunters shot. Moving it to another skill would just mean rapid fire would do more over all damage and all 10 stacks would be on you at once.

Julie Yann.5379:

Atherakhia.4086:

Julie Yann.5379:

Atherakhia.4086:

T raw.4658:

That much damage from that range and that fast is broken

How much damage wouldn’t be broken?

The same amount of damage without 10 stacks of vulnerability would probably be fine. It’s not RF that kills you, it’s the 2 or 3 blow that follow. that amount of damage plus 10 stacks of vul (10sec) on a 10sec CD. Doesn’t any of that appear OP to anyone?

So what’s your suggestion? Move the vuln to another weapon skill on the longbow? Or just straight up remove it entirely?

Any 1 of these combinations

1. Increase base damage slighty + remove vuln. completely

2. Keep the same damage+move it to another skill or untility that has a longer CD.

3. Reduce the damage slightly+reduce the amount and duration on vuln.

We don’t want to make it weak and useless. It just needs to be toned down. Being able to inflect perma 10 stacks of vulnerability iwith a high damage low CD skill is too strong.

I quote if you dodge you’ll avoid 3-5 of those Stacks , so it averages out to 6-8 stacks.
10 if the target just stands there taking the damage.

if the Ranger plays you into using said Weapon blocks/dodges or gap closers to avoid lets say Muddy terrain or a Pets f2 leap kb, after using dodges to avoid those close the gap with a Block/teleport skill so you don’t waste cooldowns.

to get the Full Effect of a RF needs a source of KB or CC to drain you of Medigating skills.

we are going around in Circles here Removing the Vun isn’t a problem.

there is no Avoiding Getting flanked in a Big fight, Melee or not, its up to you to React and move to safe spot, and if your in the open field with no terrain nearby your loss, there is plenty of terrain/walls/huts to hide behind.

If you want less damage on the FIRST intinal Rf , i’d rather Anet have a look at the Minor traits in the marksman Tree to make them Weaker but More effective in Longer fights, right now its 100%Crit on the Opening stike for you and the pet also applies 5 vun each (10 total) , after that thats it , no more Traits unless you spec Remorseless.

but on the other hand If you can Survive the first RF , the ones afterwards are no where near as powerful since we loose the 100% crit chance and the free 10 vun.

thats 20 total Vunrability on the First RF(if all arrows Hit and the pet hits)
Kiting the pet also means we are loosing out on 5 stacks and if you dodge thats other 4-5 lost out on.

bring the average back down to 8-10, all you got to do is Survive the first RF after that it isn’t much of a problem to deal with.

the current Vunrability on rf is needed as a Change to improve over all damage , and as it is the only Condi attacted to the weapon i wouldn’t like to see it changed or Removed, but moved to a different skill.

putting Vun on the Autos Is a maybe, but it attacks too slow without Traits and would be a lot less effective than moving it to onther skills.

On huntershot , too many eggs in one Basket(so that is not a choice)

Vunrability on PBS , even if the knockback is stopped by Stability , itll still apply the Vunrability stacks on a 15sec cool it fits quite well, But this skill Needs a Visual effect or it will be in the same boat , people will complain a KB and Vun at the same time is too much.

Other option , Autos cause Vunrability (5secs) each arrow can take 1secs or 0.75(rtw) to land , total 5 stacks. (with Qz the autos will stack 6-8 but drop back to 5 after a sec or two) but doing so would mean the lb can maintain autos easily and the 2.5sec cast time is fast enough not to Suffer from Diminishing Vunrability stacks.

and Barrage now Causes 1 Vunrabilty in addtion to cripple, 12 stacks of Vunrability for 12secs base , each round takes 1/4 sec to land at the end of the channel the total vunrability will be 10 stacks or around (unless you dodge out or block Barrage) as most people Currently do anyway if they are smart.

total vunrability after chaining 5 autos and Barrage = 12-17 vunrability and drops to 5 while Barrage is on cooldown.

But in the end is Anet willing to change so many skills just for a fix of one skill.

the Marksman tree plays a big role in the first few attacks , so i suggest the Above and some changes to MM , to balance out the Vunrability over different skills and Traits so RF needs a combo to hit Max Potentioal, this doesn’t effect its core damage but would Require Smarter use of this skill , rather than just using it with Opening strike to deal a One off huge spike.

but to do so Marksman minor traits would need changing too , to anet this is a lot of work to solve one problem that isn’t that much of a Issue in the first place for classes that don’t Kit for Paper armour.

EDIT : and what Sigmoid said.

Julie Yann.5379:

@Ehecatl Every one of my PvP build has a longbow. It is a mandatory weapon to be any kind of viable at the moment and I do hide behind pillars and stuff (thats point defense 101) but the thing is I am stuck waiting there until one of his friends shows up and I either run and leave the point to be capture or kill his friend and die in the process leaving the point to be captured. The whole that Ranger has done almost nothing and gets rewarded for it.

Wait, why is one of his friends showing up to make it a 1v2? Why aren’t you calling for assistance?

Ehecatl.9172:

Julie Yann.5379:

@Ehecatl Every one of my PvP build has a longbow. It is a mandatory weapon to be any kind of viable at the moment and I do hide behind pillars and stuff (thats point defense 101) but the thing is I am stuck waiting there until one of his friends shows up and I either run and leave the point to be capture or kill his friend and die in the process leaving the point to be captured. The whole that Ranger has done almost nothing and gets rewarded for it.

Wait, why is one of his friends showing up to make it a 1v2? Why aren’t you calling for assistance?

1. I repeat, have you ever got anyone to communicate and cooperate in soloQ?
2. I’ll just stand there and type while I get myself killed. I am good and fighting, not at typing at the same time. So, no I don’t call for help, I just gtfo and go fight somewhere else.

Julie Yann.5379:

1. I repeat, have you ever got anyone to communicate and cooperate in soloQ?
2. I’ll just stand there and type while I get myself killed. I am good and fighting, not at typing at the same time. So, no I don’t call for help, I just gtfo and go fight somewhere else.

This isn’t an issue with rangers, then. It’s your teammates being uncooperative and the ranger’s teammates actually helping.

Julie Yann.5379:

Ehecatl.9172:

Julie Yann.5379:

@Ehecatl Every one of my PvP build has a longbow. It is a mandatory weapon to be any kind of viable at the moment and I do hide behind pillars and stuff (thats point defense 101) but the thing is I am stuck waiting there until one of his friends shows up and I either run and leave the point to be capture or kill his friend and die in the process leaving the point to be captured. The whole that Ranger has done almost nothing and gets rewarded for it.

Wait, why is one of his friends showing up to make it a 1v2? Why aren’t you calling for assistance?

1. I repeat, have you ever got anyone to communicate and cooperate in soloQ?
2. I’ll just stand there and type while I get myself killed. I am good and fighting, not at typing at the same time. So, no I don’t call for help, I just gtfo and go fight somewhere else.

1 – most of the time, yes. Maybe as often as 6-7/10 games.
2 – what you should do is LoS the ranger then charge him/her and keep it pressured. It’s not really that hard

As a theif main, I am actually enjoying the new rapid fire change. One good dodge and I negate like 80% of their burst, than gap close and melt em. Were it used to be I had to double dodge to negate 70% of it, leaving me open for a follow up knock back.

Xtinct.7031:

As a theif main, I am actually enjoying the new rapid fire change. One good dodge and I negate like 80% of their burst, than gap close and melt em. Were it used to be I had to double dodge to negate 70% of it, leaving me open for a follow up knock back.

You play a P/D condi thief……

Yeah we’re just gonna let you ride off into the sunset after this one fella.

T raw.4658:

Xtinct.7031:

As a theif main, I am actually enjoying the new rapid fire change. One good dodge and I negate like 80% of their burst, than gap close and melt em. Were it used to be I had to double dodge to negate 70% of it, leaving me open for a follow up knock back.

You play a P/D condi thief……

Yeah we’re just gonna let you ride off into the sunset after this one fella.

lol constructive much , Nit picking much , much win Fail comment.
do us a favour and stop whining for a while.

The problem is the 4 and 2 skills are both on a 10 sec cd.

This means that in pvp the ranger can basically kd you and then unleash rf. By time you get up you catch at least half of it assuming you have a dodge available.

So lets say you dodge the 4 this means you likely will not have a dodge available for the 2. So its a catch 22 and unless you have a reflect or something, you get pasted.

The solution is to increase the cd on 4 to 15-20 sec.

Julie Yann.5379:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Julie Yann.5379:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

Neither can Rangers. You have to wait 48+ seconds for the CDs to recharge that allow you to unload significant damage via Rapid Fire.

A full zerk ranger’s rapid fire is significant damage. We can discuss buffing that even more with Signet of the wild another time, but let’s keep this on level ground first.

A full zerk anything in PvP is a non-factor. They die if you breathe in their direction (that’s why they are called “glass cannons”… lots of damage potential but super easy to break when hit).

If full zerkers are regularly giving you problems in PvP, you need to get more experience in PvP because you are doing something wrong.

If someone has a position advantage, you should be countering that with a push, a pull, or a different position of your own.

I do not have a problem with Rangers in pvp. I ‘have a problem’ with the ease of which they can be effective, as I stated before. And, also as I mentioned before, being able to dole out reasonable damage from a perch that is difficult to access, while pushing away any classes that attempt to get near you requires very little skill.

Warriors do not have pushes or pulls. None that can be done from long range at least.

I’ve been dealing with these rangers all kittening night in PvP. All they do is climb up a ledge over looking a point and pew pew pew ftw. It’s really lame and toxic gameplay. It really sucks as a warrior cause our pushes and pulls have a short range. By the time you get up there you have -50% health and 10 stacks of vulnerablitlity. The only real option is to go fight somewhere else. I hope Anet nerfs the kitten out of those builds in 6 months.

So…why haven’t you been on that ledge awaiting their attempt to be up there? If you know they’re going there, ambush them and take them out while they’re up there.

1. I suck at jps
2. The time I waste waiting for said ranger who may or may not show up is time where I am not doing anything productive for the team.
3. All the Ranger has to do then is pew pew me from down below at 1500range.

Do you have any other smart strategy to suggest?

In a teamfight, someone in your team should be able to melee him. If no one does, take the initiative! Even in rangers focus, any gap closer plus a dodge/block should get you quite saveley into melee range, and LB is pretty weak in there. You basically take them the ability to weapon swap.

In a 1on1, just get off point and line of sight if you cant beat him up. You don´t need to stand on point if its yours.^^ No offense man, but thats not about rangers, thats a general l2p issue if you just camp in LoS till death. This counts for every class.

On topic: I personally think rangers are ok now. They definetly are quite powerfull if no one disturbs them, but if someone does, they´re quite weak. Whats about high ranked tourneys? I would like to know if they´re played there, i hardly estimate so. The better the players, the more weak is LB ranger in my opinion. And more people will learn to handle them over time. I see them more as a short time trend for the moment, but well, haven´t played that much since patch.

Julie Yann.5379:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Julie Yann.5379:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

mtpelion.4562:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Thieves and mesmers also cannot unload significant damage every 8 seconds at a great distance from that range without significant forethought/tactical thinking, which is the focus of my argument.

Neither can Rangers. You have to wait 48+ seconds for the CDs to recharge that allow you to unload significant damage via Rapid Fire.

A full zerk ranger’s rapid fire is significant damage. We can discuss buffing that even more with Signet of the wild another time, but let’s keep this on level ground first.

A full zerk anything in PvP is a non-factor. They die if you breathe in their direction (that’s why they are called “glass cannons”… lots of damage potential but super easy to break when hit).

If full zerkers are regularly giving you problems in PvP, you need to get more experience in PvP because you are doing something wrong.

If someone has a position advantage, you should be countering that with a push, a pull, or a different position of your own.

I do not have a problem with Rangers in pvp. I ‘have a problem’ with the ease of which they can be effective, as I stated before. And, also as I mentioned before, being able to dole out reasonable damage from a perch that is difficult to access, while pushing away any classes that attempt to get near you requires very little skill.

Warriors do not have pushes or pulls. None that can be done from long range at least.

I’ve been dealing with these rangers all kittening night in PvP. All they do is climb up a ledge over looking a point and pew pew pew ftw. It’s really lame and toxic gameplay. It really sucks as a warrior cause our pushes and pulls have a short range. By the time you get up there you have -50% health and 10 stacks of vulnerablitlity. The only real option is to go fight somewhere else. I hope Anet nerfs the kitten out of those builds in 6 months.

So…why haven’t you been on that ledge awaiting their attempt to be up there? If you know they’re going there, ambush them and take them out while they’re up there.

1. I suck at jps
2. The time I waste waiting for said ranger who may or may not show up is time where I am not doing anything productive for the team.
3. All the Ranger has to do then is pew pew me from down below at 1500range.

Do you have any other smart strategy to suggest?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQFgMCALAQFA

This lets you reflect every other rapid fire back into their face. Time your dodges to negate the other one and they will never kill you from 1500 range.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

T raw.4658:

Xtinct.7031:

As a theif main, I am actually enjoying the new rapid fire change. One good dodge and I negate like 80% of their burst, than gap close and melt em. Were it used to be I had to double dodge to negate 70% of it, leaving me open for a follow up knock back.

You play a P/D condi thief……

Yeah we’re just gonna let you ride off into the sunset after this one fella.

lol constructive much , Nit picking much , much win Fail comment.
do us a favour and stop whining for a while.

I can appreciate self preservation mode that you are sporting.

That being said obviously the concept of balance risk vs reward are foreign to you. So I will spell it out:

As it currently stands now LB ranger is easier to play than ANY warrior build pre-nerfs.

T raw.4658:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

T raw.4658:

Xtinct.7031:

As a theif main, I am actually enjoying the new rapid fire change. One good dodge and I negate like 80% of their burst, than gap close and melt em. Were it used to be I had to double dodge to negate 70% of it, leaving me open for a follow up knock back.

You play a P/D condi thief……

Yeah we’re just gonna let you ride off into the sunset after this one fella.

lol constructive much , Nit picking much , much win Fail comment.
do us a favour and stop whining for a while.

I can appreciate self preservation mode that you are sporting.

That being said obviously the concept of balance risk vs reward are foreign to you. So I will spell it out:

As it currently stands now LB ranger is easier to play than ANY warrior build pre-nerfs.

You are kidding right? Before this update a warrior could build to out heal a longbow ranger. They could literally just ignore the ranger because rangers didn’t have a burst to kill them.

If a warrior is halfway decent and creates his build to deal with ranged players the warrior will have the advantage. Before you say you shouldn’t have to build to deal with ranged damage you need to keep in mind the ranger has chosen a build that leaves him considerably weak against condi’s and anyone getting in melee range. It only works as long as the rangers controls the battlefield, I would argue staying in control of terrain and timing your CC’s requires a lot more skill than pressing 7 than 5 than F1, or whatever it is you people think makes your classes complicated.

That is why this build is high risk high reward, and that is where the player skill comes from.

Ranger being easier to play or not really doesn’t concern me. What concerns me is if the class is productive. We have seen no shift in WvW or PvP to indicate this change had no impact on anything.

I’m concerned that the problems the class has had for 2 years will continue to go unaddressed simply because they gave the class a singular ranged burst skill that is only 15% more powerful than Volley.

T raw.4658:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

T raw.4658:

Xtinct.7031:

As a theif main, I am actually enjoying the new rapid fire change. One good dodge and I negate like 80% of their burst, than gap close and melt em. Were it used to be I had to double dodge to negate 70% of it, leaving me open for a follow up knock back.

You play a P/D condi thief……

Yeah we’re just gonna let you ride off into the sunset after this one fella.

lol constructive much , Nit picking much , much win Fail comment.
do us a favour and stop whining for a while.

I can appreciate self preservation mode that you are sporting.

That being said obviously the concept of balance risk vs reward are foreign to you. So I will spell it out:

As it currently stands now LB ranger is easier to play than ANY warrior build pre-nerfs.

ok right? i do know about Balance since i did Games Design for two years at college and understand all the fundamentals, where as you are just complaining and not Proving any Evidence apart from Cherry picked Videos.
please go read all my comments before Quoting i know nothing about Balance.

Funny thing to note is Rangers are starting to sound a lot like Warriors when they got their buff(From free kill to threat), everyone was saying they’re too strong as well and enjoyed the tears of everyone else, just expect of what’s to come most likely in the future.

I take every I said back. Rangers aren’t OP, they are just broken and rely on a cheap low risk skill and cowardly tactics to win. They are just as lame as they always were now they just have a skill that gets them notice by making you vulnerable to other peoples damage.

Despite that, the amount of FOTM LB Rangers is just staggering. It just as bad or worse than it was when warriors and thieves were popular.

Julie Yann.5379:

I take every I said back. Rangers aren’t OP, they are just broken and rely on a cheap low risk skill and cowardly tactics to win. They are just as lame as they always were now they just have a skill that gets them notice by making you vulnerable to other peoples damage.

Despite that, the amount of FOTM LB Rangers is just staggering. It just as bad or worse than it was when warriors and thieves were popular.

WARRIORS NEED A NERF!!!! It’s so unfair that they can negate all ranged damage for about 17 seconds straight without using dodges! OMG so OP!! With 1 adept level trait they can reflect projectiles for about 7 seconds straight!!! 1 of their heal skills turns my rapid fire into a huge heal for them!!!
There is simply no way to fight this!!! I mean…. there is… but I don’t want to change a single thing about the way I play because change is scary!!! Please Anet nerf these OP warriors now or else the game and all the puppies in the world will die!!!

Jim Hunter.6821:

Julie Yann.5379:

I take every I said back. Rangers aren’t OP, they are just broken and rely on a cheap low risk skill and cowardly tactics to win. They are just as lame as they always were now they just have a skill that gets them notice by making you vulnerable to other peoples damage.

Despite that, the amount of FOTM LB Rangers is just staggering. It just as bad or worse than it was when warriors and thieves were popular.

WARRIORS NEED A NERF!!!! It’s so unfair that they can negate all ranged damage for about 17 seconds straight without using dodges! OMG so OP!! With 1 adept level trait they can reflect projectiles for about 7 seconds straight!!! 1 of their heal skills turns my rapid fire into a huge heal for them!!!
There is simply no way to fight this!!! I mean…. there is… but I don’t want to change a single thing about the way I play because change is scary!!! Please Anet nerf these OP warriors now or else the game and all the puppies in the world will die!!!

Where have you been the last 2 years? Since launch Anet has nerfed our damage at almost every patch. Since last spring they nerfed the kitten out of our hammer, LB and Axe damage. They butchered our core mechanic indirectly nerfing our sustain at the same time. Warriors are far from being OP now.

Rangers could have been in a good place but Anet did a kitten job at fixing your class and broke it even further.

Julie Yann.5379:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Julie Yann.5379:

I take every I said back. Rangers aren’t OP, they are just broken and rely on a cheap low risk skill and cowardly tactics to win. They are just as lame as they always were now they just have a skill that gets them notice by making you vulnerable to other peoples damage.

Despite that, the amount of FOTM LB Rangers is just staggering. It just as bad or worse than it was when warriors and thieves were popular.

WARRIORS NEED A NERF!!!! It’s so unfair that they can negate all ranged damage for about 17 seconds straight without using dodges! OMG so OP!! With 1 adept level trait they can reflect projectiles for about 7 seconds straight!!! 1 of their heal skills turns my rapid fire into a huge heal for them!!!
There is simply no way to fight this!!! I mean…. there is… but I don’t want to change a single thing about the way I play because change is scary!!! Please Anet nerf these OP warriors now or else the game and all the puppies in the world will die!!!

Where have you been the last 2 years? Since launch Anet has nerfed our damage at almost every patch. Since last spring they nerfed the kitten out of our hammer, LB and Axe damage. They butchered our core mechanic indirectly nerfing our sustain at the same time. Warriors are far from being OP now.

Rangers could have been in a good place but Anet did a kitten job at fixing your class and broke it even further.

Nooooo!!!! Warriors are OP because… reasons!!!! If I rapid fire them and they reflect it I will die!! Canceling rapid fire would require me to do something so reflect is OP!!!!! NERF ALL WARRIORS!!!! Think of the puppies!!!

Julie Yann.5379:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Julie Yann.5379:

I take every I said back. Rangers aren’t OP, they are just broken and rely on a cheap low risk skill and cowardly tactics to win. They are just as lame as they always were now they just have a skill that gets them notice by making you vulnerable to other peoples damage.

Despite that, the amount of FOTM LB Rangers is just staggering. It just as bad or worse than it was when warriors and thieves were popular.

WARRIORS NEED A NERF!!!! It’s so unfair that they can negate all ranged damage for about 17 seconds straight without using dodges! OMG so OP!! With 1 adept level trait they can reflect projectiles for about 7 seconds straight!!! 1 of their heal skills turns my rapid fire into a huge heal for them!!!
There is simply no way to fight this!!! I mean…. there is… but I don’t want to change a single thing about the way I play because change is scary!!! Please Anet nerf these OP warriors now or else the game and all the puppies in the world will die!!!

Where have you been the last 2 years? Since launch Anet has nerfed our damage at almost every patch. Since last spring they nerfed the kitten out of our hammer, LB and Axe damage. They butchered our core mechanic indirectly nerfing our sustain at the same time. Warriors are far from being OP now.

Rangers could have been in a good place but Anet did a kitten job at fixing your class and broke it even further.

He can’t be serious, because he just stated the most useless healing skill of all pvp and pve of all time, like it is something use able.

so no, hes just joking~

Jim Hunter.6821:

Julie Yann.5379:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Julie Yann.5379:

I take every I said back. Rangers aren’t OP, they are just broken and rely on a cheap low risk skill and cowardly tactics to win. They are just as lame as they always were now they just have a skill that gets them notice by making you vulnerable to other peoples damage.

Despite that, the amount of FOTM LB Rangers is just staggering. It just as bad or worse than it was when warriors and thieves were popular.

WARRIORS NEED A NERF!!!! It’s so unfair that they can negate all ranged damage for about 17 seconds straight without using dodges! OMG so OP!! With 1 adept level trait they can reflect projectiles for about 7 seconds straight!!! 1 of their heal skills turns my rapid fire into a huge heal for them!!!
There is simply no way to fight this!!! I mean…. there is… but I don’t want to change a single thing about the way I play because change is scary!!! Please Anet nerf these OP warriors now or else the game and all the puppies in the world will die!!!

Where have you been the last 2 years? Since launch Anet has nerfed our damage at almost every patch. Since last spring they nerfed the kitten out of our hammer, LB and Axe damage. They butchered our core mechanic indirectly nerfing our sustain at the same time. Warriors are far from being OP now.

Rangers could have been in a good place but Anet did a kitten job at fixing your class and broke it even further.

Nooooo!!!! Warriors are OP because… reasons!!!! If I rapid fire them and they reflect it I will die!! Canceling rapid fire would require me to do something so reflect is OP!!!!! NERF ALL WARRIORS!!!! Think of the puppies!!!

A well deserved lol.

Simon.3794:

Julie Yann.5379:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Julie Yann.5379:

I take every I said back. Rangers aren’t OP, they are just broken and rely on a cheap low risk skill and cowardly tactics to win. They are just as lame as they always were now they just have a skill that gets them notice by making you vulnerable to other peoples damage.

Despite that, the amount of FOTM LB Rangers is just staggering. It just as bad or worse than it was when warriors and thieves were popular.

WARRIORS NEED A NERF!!!! It’s so unfair that they can negate all ranged damage for about 17 seconds straight without using dodges! OMG so OP!! With 1 adept level trait they can reflect projectiles for about 7 seconds straight!!! 1 of their heal skills turns my rapid fire into a huge heal for them!!!
There is simply no way to fight this!!! I mean…. there is… but I don’t want to change a single thing about the way I play because change is scary!!! Please Anet nerf these OP warriors now or else the game and all the puppies in the world will die!!!

Where have you been the last 2 years? Since launch Anet has nerfed our damage at almost every patch. Since last spring they nerfed the kitten out of our hammer, LB and Axe damage. They butchered our core mechanic indirectly nerfing our sustain at the same time. Warriors are far from being OP now.

Rangers could have been in a good place but Anet did a kitten job at fixing your class and broke it even further.

He can’t be serious, because he just stated the most useless healing skill of all pvp and pve of all time, like it is something use able.

so no, hes just joking~

Nooooo!!!!! Healing is OP!!! If I attack someone and they heal it’s almost like my damage didn’t do anything at all!!!! Of course at that point I have to lay down and let them kill me because using other skills is a cheap tactic and unfair and…. and… um.. mean!!!! ANET NERF HEALING SKILLS!!!!! PUPPIES!!!!

But seriously, did you all catch the thread where a baby ranger was complaining that his rapid fire was healing warriors? People crack me up.

This isn’t warrior vs ranger discussion time

Simply RF in its current state needs to go.

T raw.4658:

This isn’t warrior vs ranger discussion time

Simply RF in its current state needs to go.

Why when Volley is in the same state and has been for 2 years.

Now if you want to argue the 15% additional damage is too much, or the 300 additional range is too much, then raise those concerns. But mechanically, the skills are very similar so arguing about the cooldown, channel time, or 1200 base range is a waste of time.