Guild Wars 2

When we are running venom sharing, people we hit are rooted for over 20 seconds. Rooted from first contact to dead. For those saying all they have to do is remove the condition. Well, they have every other condition on them covering that root.

Bombsaway.7198:

I am torn. How many of you posters play a melee damage class?
One of the key problems of the game has been that ranged damage can’t whittle anyone down very much before they are in “smashface” mode.
The immobilize buff helped.
But it would be pretty boring to just sit.
On the other hand, it is pretty frustrating to be ranged damage with melee in your face in seconds.

If it is toned down, there needs to be something done to make melee’s ability to close range far less effective.

I agree, this could help the ele dagger actually stick on people after the needless RTL nerf. Whatever nerf/fix they do to the overall system they need to give melee weapon immobilizes a bit more oomph to compete with some ranged weapons ridiculous kiting ability.

If you’re unable to get close to a person with a ranged weapon, it sounds like it’s on you. I’ve never had trouble getting close. There’s a reason why gap closers exist people.

Bombsaway.7198:

I am torn. How many of you posters play a melee damage class?
One of the key problems of the game has been that ranged damage can’t whittle anyone down very much before they are in “smashface” mode.
The immobilize buff helped.
But it would be pretty boring to just sit.
On the other hand, it is pretty frustrating to be ranged damage with melee in your face in seconds.

If it is toned down, there needs to be something done to make melee’s ability to close range far less effective.

Ranged damage still works in melee.
Melee damage doesn’t work at range.

Oozo.7856:

When we are running venom sharing, people we hit are rooted for over 20 seconds. Rooted from first contact to dead. For those saying all they have to do is remove the condition. Well, they have every other condition on them covering that root.

You know you are describing a single target being attacked by a group of 5 players?
I’d call imbalance if they wouldn’t go down easily.

It’s simple…

Step #1: Make a general pass through each class to ensure the immobilize duration and cooldown ‘fit’ the role that’s intended. Entangling Roots for example for the Ranger… excessively long in both duration and cooldown. 4 second root on a 45second cooldown is far more reasonable.

Step #2: Figure out if a class really needs multiple forms of immobilize. Does a Warrior need half a dozen forms of immobilize and just as many ways to negate it? I doubt it. But does a Ranger? Probably…

Step #3: Put a cap on CC/Boon duration. Does a Thief need 2mins of vigor? Do players really deserve to have 2mins of poison? 1min of burn? Eles intended to have perma fury and protection?

Since this is an immobilize thread, lets stick to that…

Immobilize is applied and can stack to wazoo. But as soon as wazoo reach 5 seconds, the player is given a ‘boon’ (that can’t be stolen or removed) granting immunity to immobilize for 6 seconds. This way the stack is no longer being refreshed, it will last 5 seconds and provide a brief immunity after the fact.

This same logic can then be used for everything in the game.

Stun breaks should remove immobilize.

LelouchViBritannia.3607:

Bombsaway.7198:

I am torn. How many of you posters play a melee damage class?
One of the key problems of the game has been that ranged damage can’t whittle anyone down very much before they are in “smashface” mode.
The immobilize buff helped.
But it would be pretty boring to just sit.
On the other hand, it is pretty frustrating to be ranged damage with melee in your face in seconds.

If it is toned down, there needs to be something done to make melee’s ability to close range far less effective.

Ranged damage still works in melee.
Melee damage doesn’t work at range.

Melee classes: Eleventybillion different ways to get in combat.

Ranged classes: Eleventybillion – 1 ways to stay out of combat.

When these 2 are the same and real kiting can exist for a ranged class we’ll have a serious discussion. But when melee classes can kite better than ranged ones and have 0 trouble getting in range and staying there? And on top of that you have a handicap for ranged damage vs melee? Why even have the conversation…

Geff.1930:

Stun breaks should remove immobilize.

Better yet, reduce it back to 1.
Punish those that spam it.

I don’t think anyone really understands the problem. Removing Immobilize stacking only fixes venom share thief and makes mediocre players not as good.

Good players will still be able to chain stagger immobilize on a target (assuming the new one overwrites). And loading up a target with stacked immobilize all at once has the disadvantage that all those applications of immobilized can be cleansed all at once.

Before trying to nerf immobilize across the board, fix the cleanse order bug and address abilities that apply too long of an immobilize. Once that’s done, then re-evaluate immobilize stacking.

Agreed.

/15char

Just revert immobilize already. Not all people want to use melandru/hoelbrak (pvp) or melandru/hoelbrak + lemongrass (wvw). People can easily stack 10s+ of immobilize on you on top of other conditions which means you’re pretty much screwed.

Carighan.6758:

Oozo.7856:

When we are running venom sharing, people we hit are rooted for over 20 seconds. Rooted from first contact to dead. For those saying all they have to do is remove the condition. Well, they have every other condition on them covering that root.

You know you are describing a single target being attacked by a group of 5 players?
I’d call imbalance if they wouldn’t go down easily.

They die because they have a 20 sec stunlock keeping them from kiting to avoid damage and maneuver with their group. A single person can kite a group easily with the right skills and ability. They can’t do that, however, if they are forced to stand in one spot and get steam rolled.

I completely agree. Immobilize is far too OP in its current state.

No one ever asked for immobilize stacking. It was completely unnecessary and is bad for the game. Remove it already.

If Anet removed immobilise stacking, they probably wouldn’t need to continue nerfing associated immobilise skills.

Immobilise was absolutely fine stacking just once before. Why fix that which was never broken?

Come on Anet, make less work for yourselves and just revert it back to one stack.

I agree, revert it back to its initial state of 1 stack in sPvP.
(I can’t tell for WvW, I haven’t played it enough for a long time)

Serdoc.7261:

I think the buff to immobilize makes sense in PvE, but it is out of place and creates frustrating /cheesy situations in both WvW and PvP.

Please reduce immobilize max stacks to 1 for WvW and PvP, leave it at 3 for PvE.

My sentiments exactly.

Back when I played a turret control engi in sPVP, I could keep enemies locked down for long periods of time with just 1 stack. This had a big risk to it: I had to stagger my slowly flying immobilizes at the right time. If it was too soon, my immobilizes were ineffective and just wasted time. If it was too late, my enemies could avoid the next immobilize, and then I was at risk again.

This required calculated tactics and timing. I didn’t know if my opponents had condi reducing skills, or if they had ample cleanse. I had to guess and take note for the future. If I can just stack immobilize, then there’s no choice to make anymore.

Bombsaway.7198:

I am torn. How many of you posters play a melee damage class?
One of the key problems of the game has been that ranged damage can’t whittle anyone down very much before they are in “smashface” mode.
The immobilize buff helped.
But it would be pretty boring to just sit.
On the other hand, it is pretty frustrating to be ranged damage with melee in your face in seconds.

If it is toned down, there needs to be something done to make melee’s ability to close range far less effective.

Ranged damage already has a ton of ways to keep meleers at range:

swiftness
chill
cripple
knockbacks
escape/movement skills

or simply staggering immobilize skills instead of spamming them.

Soilder.3607:

No one ever asked for immobilize stacking. It was completely unnecessary and is bad for the game. Remove it already.

This 100×.

Who the heck thought stacking Immobilize was fun?!

Want a fun condition? Then change Torment, lower it’s base damage and have it spread to the enemy’s allies (Like GW1 Disease, except it can only transfer once)

Immobilize stacking has to go! No one ever wanted, needed or even liked it.
Why do we still have it?

V lazy thought; what if Immobilise was capped at 5 or 6 seconds?

Substance E.4852:

They die because they have a 20 sec stunlock keeping them from kiting to avoid damage and maneuver with their group. A single person can kite a group easily with the right skills and ability. They can’t do that, however, if they are forced to stand in one spot and get steam rolled.

I would say the root locking serves as a correct solution to an otherwise imbalance, then.

If 5 players attack you, you should get steamrolled. Period. There’s little semblance of balance if sheer strategically superior numbers cannot auto-win you a fight.

I would mind it a little less if immob didn’t have some weird characteristics such as making certain skills not fire. For instance, sometimes block skills won’t activate if you are immobilized… I usually find this happens if I’m holding down the movement keys at the same time, which is not uncommon since I was probably moving before getting immobilized.

Also, things like the toss elixir skills have to be tossed at a very specific angle in order to fire correctly since your character cannot rotate. So simply trying to throw it at your feet to remove the immob (through cleaning formula 409) may not work if the AoE circle isn’t positioned at the exact proper location (which will likely be slightly in front of your character’s facing instead of on top of you), even though you would normally throw it on top of yourself if not immobilized.

I suppose allowing one to rotate while immobilized would make things like rocket boots and mobile strikes much more powerful, but I think it would remove all this weird nonsense of stuff not firing when it should be firing.

Immob is just as valuable as stun in some cases, and the long durations and inability to guarantee a break can actually make it much more powerful.

Substance E.4852:

Carighan.6758:

Oozo.7856:

When we are running venom sharing, people we hit are rooted for over 20 seconds. Rooted from first contact to dead. For those saying all they have to do is remove the condition. Well, they have every other condition on them covering that root.

You know you are describing a single target being attacked by a group of 5 players?
I’d call imbalance if they wouldn’t go down easily.

They die because they have a 20 sec stunlock keeping them from kiting to avoid damage and maneuver with their group. A single person can kite a group easily with the right skills and ability. They can’t do that, however, if they are forced to stand in one spot and get steam rolled.

^ Some people understand this. Other people, including the developers don’t.

Carighan.6758:

Substance E.4852:

They die because they have a 20 sec stunlock keeping them from kiting to avoid damage and maneuver with their group. A single person can kite a group easily with the right skills and ability. They can’t do that, however, if they are forced to stand in one spot and get steam rolled.

I would say the root locking serves as a correct solution to an otherwise imbalance, then.

If 5 players attack you, you should get steamrolled. Period. There’s little semblance of balance if sheer strategically superior numbers cannot auto-win you a fight.

We aren’t talking about 5v1s. We are talking about 5vNs where you use this advanced technique called “focusing a target.” And it doesn’t take all five people to completely lock someone down. Two or three will do quite nicely.

And let’s remember that the root is being covered by a ton of conditions and they are also taking basilisk venom stuns from multiple sources as well. Good times.

.

The only way to survive this is with a stunbreak and port. There is almost zero counterplay.

Wishful thinking:

Change immobilize to chills. Intensify what chill can do. Duration and such.

New Root system with new skills/traits that have actual animations like the ranger elite. These roots are to take a player out of the game for it’s duration unless they:
1. Use a stun breaker.
2. Take enough damage that fills up a root meter. Once full it breaks the root. That would account for all of the AOE damage going around.

Not sure how I would make stability work with this root system.

On topic. One stack is where I currently would like it to be.

Oozo.7856:

We aren’t talking about 5v1s. We are talking about 5vNs where you use this advanced technique called “focusing a target.” And it doesn’t take all five people to completely lock someone down. Two or three will do quite nicely.

As I said, 5v1. They are reducing a fight of, say, 5v5 (or in the video a fight of 5v1 followed by a 5v2) to a fight of 5v1, hoping for the enemy to not do the same or counteract the idea. This is not only extremely common – due to being based in real-life warfare maneuvers – but also extremely simple to understand for any player.

Again, how is this unbalanced, when the absence of it would in fact be unbalanced.
If you cannot focus-burn a target, what is the use of having a combat system which is supposedly about more than mashing 1? At some point you need to employ tactics (and a strategy, too!), and if the game system allows a single target to survive against 5 attackers long enough for the focus to be meaningless, there’s no point.

“Ganking” is a rather important concept in PvP games.

But back to the thread, I thought debuffs already cannot stack longer than 5x the base duration?

Sari.9836:

I agree, revert it back to its initial state of 1 stack in sPvP.
(I can’t tell for WvW, I haven’t played it enough for a long time)

its worse there. u get chain immobilized to death and also chain interrupted. perma feared, perma chilled, perma stunned, perma immobilized, perma interrupted is all u see in wvw atm.
all of these need some form of immunity, so after u got interrupted u cant get interrupted again right away again and u can react at least. same with all the immobilize. its ridiculous that u just stand there and cant do anything to defend yourself.

Tower guards in wvw stack immobilize on you with throw bolas so a defender doesn’t have to, but engineer net turret is the obvious problem here. Nerf! /sarcasm

Again, how is this unbalanced, when the absence of it would in fact be unbalanced.
If you cannot focus-burn a target, what is the use of having a combat system which is supposedly about more than mashing 1? At some point you need to employ tactics (and a strategy, too!), and if the game system allows a single target to survive against 5 attackers long enough for the focus to be meaningless, there’s no point.

Meh. It is fine if single target can’t survive very well against multiple attackers. Otherwise conquest mode would be pretty much unplayable, after all. But the problem with immob stacking is that you can use it in group fights against a single target, so that this target has no chances of escaping despite being aided by his group. You can’t reposition yourself if you can’t move. Support / aiding skills in this game are so clumsy that it can be very difficult to help the target who is being focus fired. For example Guild Wars 1 had very reactive support skills that allowed counter play against the otherwise quite powerful spiking / focus firing setups.

Oozo.7856:

Substance E.4852:

Carighan.6758:

Oozo.7856:

When we are running venom sharing, people we hit are rooted for over 20 seconds. Rooted from first contact to dead. For those saying all they have to do is remove the condition. Well, they have every other condition on them covering that root.

You know you are describing a single target being attacked by a group of 5 players?
I’d call imbalance if they wouldn’t go down easily.

They die because they have a 20 sec stunlock keeping them from kiting to avoid damage and maneuver with their group. A single person can kite a group easily with the right skills and ability. They can’t do that, however, if they are forced to stand in one spot and get steam rolled.

^ Some people understand this. Other people, including the developers don’t.

The issue isn’t 1v1 or 5v1. The problem is TEAM FIGHTS in coordinated tPvP teams.

It’s an AoE immobilize spam-fest, the more immobilize your team has, the better.

Just bumping this thread because Immobilise stacking needs to be re-addressed by the devs.

• With regard to Net Turret being nerfed, I can see the intent behind it. Even without Immobilise stacking one can still time the skills such that Net Attack can be followed up with Net Turret to put up to 6 seconds of Immobilise on a single target. Assuming the Net Turret doesn’t simply fire at something else entirely, because the AI is borked to hell and back ; or be useless due to any one of 27 Turret bugs .

• That being said, I do think it’s a good first step to re-evaluate Immobilise applying skills in a balance pass across all professions. Some skills that pulse Immobilise, or certain combinations that can quickly stack large amounts of Immobilise should be looked at.

But really, making Immobilise stacking to only 2 or not at all should be the first step. And it’s disappointing that Arenanet is not looking at doing that first over doing balance passes across individual skills.

I disagree. When I was playing a sword and board war and I was using flurry, people use their 1 second immobilize and then the enemy gets away. I rather not get greifed by my own teammates accidentally every time

runeblade.7514:

I disagree. When I was playing a sword and board war and I was using flurry, people use their 1 second immobilize and then the enemy gets away. I rather not get greifed by my own teammates accidentally every time

This is what so many here are conveniently forgetting. People WERE complaining about immobilize before this buff, a lot as I recall, you were considered a fool to bother dedicating condi-duration in an immobilize dependent build.

Is it contributing to a horrible meta and limiting build choice? And are people depending on it too much? Probably yes on both counts. But blind cries for reverting it and falsely claiming that ‘no one was complaining’, just because you didn’t see the problem at the time are completely unhelpful. It does not have to be worthless or overpowered, there is an area between those two points.

Is it true that this immob buff came out of nowhere…

I found 2 logical explenations..
1.Anet doesnt care what we say, they found it right, they did a terrible job…

2.They prepare some new gamemodes that the immob stacking would be vital.Or it will determine fights etc…It has to do with the new upcoming gamemodes in general

I rarely agree with balance suggestions on these forums, but putting immob back to 1 stack is the right way to go.

We’ve given it a serious trial now, it’s had the time to settle in and immobilize stacking still feels like a terrible, terrible change.

At the end of the day, it’s just not fun and that counts for a lot.

I wouldn’t wanthem to weaken individual immob skills (critical for squishy classes to keep heavies at range). Instead, they should have a maximum duration one can be immobilized for.

Bombsaway.7198:

I wouldn’t wanthem to weaken individual immob skills (critical for squishy classes to keep heavies at range). Instead, they should have a maximum duration one can be immobilized for.

This isn’t ideal either, it still rewards spamming immobilize to keep the duration at the cap.

1 stack. That’s it.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Bombsaway.7198:

I wouldn’t wanthem to weaken individual immob skills (critical for squishy classes to keep heavies at range). Instead, they should have a maximum duration one can be immobilized for.

This isn’t ideal either, it still rewards spamming immobilize to keep the duration at the cap.

1 stack. That’s it.

Old system wasn’t good at all. Refer to quote.

runeblade.7514:

I disagree. When I was playing a sword and board war and I was using flurry, people use their 1 second immobilize and then the enemy gets away. I rather not get greifed by my own teammates accidentally every time

runeblade.7514:

Nova Stiker.8396:

Bombsaway.7198:

I wouldn’t wanthem to weaken individual immob skills (critical for squishy classes to keep heavies at range). Instead, they should have a maximum duration one can be immobilized for.

This isn’t ideal either, it still rewards spamming immobilize to keep the duration at the cap.

1 stack. That’s it.

Old system wasn’t good at all. Refer to quote.

runeblade.7514:

I disagree. When I was playing a sword and board war and I was using flurry, people use their 1 second immobilize and then the enemy gets away. I rather not get greifed by my own teammates accidentally every time

In your situation, 2 maximum stacks of Immobilise would still be fine. As it stands, 3 is leading to silly durations like 5-10 seconds depending on what skills are stacked. That’s…a little excessive.

Pin Down needs a longer cast time, a more visible animation, and self-root like Kill Shot. It’s such a deadly skill to not have any one of these drawbacks.

The fact that any cc in this game can stack is just silly and has probably driven away 80% of the people I came to this game with in the first place from other mmos. But the rest of the cc aside which you can at least stun break out of, immobs are just way too strong right now, considering that multiple classes completely rely on dodges to survive in the first place. Getting focused on my ele and popping mist form (75s cd lol), and finding out im still rooted when it ends is just silly.

1 stack should be all you can get hit with at once, if people are mad that a teammates little 1s immob made their 5s one not work you should have to communicate better so that doesnt happen.

Sizer.5632:

1 stack should be all you can get hit with at once, if people are mad that a teammates little 1s immob made their 5s one not work you should have to communicate better so that doesnt happen.

Sure, let me type, “DON’T YOU DARE kittenING USE ANY IMMOBILIZE!” in half a second to my solo-queue teammate or to the zerg in WvW before he use a 1 second immobilize on my 3 second immobilized enemy.

And, a good elementalist would remove the immobilize with condi removals before mist forming away.

well cc in general is out of control in wvw. u get thrown around like a ping pong ball as a necro or mesmer with our nearly non existant stability.
u get immobilized to death as it is a condi and also stacks. then u get chain interrupted, perma feared, perma chilled, perma crippled, perma rooted and can get chain knocked down, knocked back and dont even have the chance to block any of that because your skills are on perma cooldown due to perma interrupts.and no, its not fun at all.

Immobilize stacking needs to go. Controlling your character in a fight is fun, having your character controlled is not.

it should be for PVE. but not for PVP.

Another voice chiming in for the elimination of multiple immobilize stacks. It isn’t fun.

runeblade.7514:

I disagree. When I was playing a sword and board war and I was using flurry, people use their 1 second immobilize and then the enemy gets away. I rather not get greifed by my own teammates accidentally every time

You’re just going to have to live with it.
If I use a maxed Skull Bash and a thief uses Pistol Whip, my 3 second stun is turned into 1/2 a second, just how it is.
_________________________________________________
The major issue isn’t stacking on a single person, the big issue is it stacking on MULTIPLE people.

For example, in a group fight, two sword Warriors both use Flurry on two people. Maxed out, that is easily 8-10 SECONDS of immobilize on two people.

Cleanse it right? Well no, it’s a group fight, conditions are being tossed everywhere. Necromancers spamming Marks, Rangers bleeding with Axes and Warriors spreading fire.

Immobilize is LAST on the cleansing order, you’ll get rid of the bleeding but with the amount of conditions being blasted around everywhere on basic attacks, you’re going to be stuck for 10 seconds.

THAT IS NOT FUN!!

runeblade.7514:

Sizer.5632:

1 stack should be all you can get hit with at once, if people are mad that a teammates little 1s immob made their 5s one not work you should have to communicate better so that doesnt happen.

Sure, let me type, “DON’T YOU DARE kittenING USE ANY IMMOBILIZE!” in half a second to my solo-queue teammate or to the zerg in WvW before he use a 1 second immobilize on my 3 second immobilized enemy.

And, a good elementalist would remove the immobilize with condi removals before mist forming away.

http://www.teamspeak.com/
http://www.ventrilo.com/
http://mumble.sourceforge.net/

Take your pick, there are others im sure but those are popular ones. Chain cc’ing someone should at least require coordination, not just spamming abilities.

And being good has nothing to do with the fact that ele cleanses are either easily inturruptable or on much longer cooldowns than most immobs are, not to mention that immob is rarely the first thing to be removed, but im sure you already knew that and are just that good of a player that you can always figure out how to remove it first.

Nova Stiker.8396:

runeblade.7514:

I disagree. When I was playing a sword and board war and I was using flurry, people use their 1 second immobilize and then the enemy gets away. I rather not get greifed by my own teammates accidentally every time

You’re just going to have to live with it.
If I use a maxed Skull Bash and a thief uses Pistol Whip, my 3 second stun is turned into 1/2 a second, just how it is.
_________________________________________________
The major issue isn’t stacking on a single person, the big issue is it stacking on MULTIPLE people.

For example, in a group fight, two sword Warriors both use Flurry on two people. Maxed out, that is easily 8-10 SECONDS of immobilize on two people.

Cleanse it right? Well no, it’s a group fight, conditions are being tossed everywhere. Necromancers spamming Marks, Rangers bleeding with Axes and Warriors spreading fire.

Immobilize is LAST on the cleansing order, you’ll get rid of the bleeding but with the amount of conditions being blasted around everywhere on basic attacks, you’re going to be stuck for 10 seconds.

THAT IS NOT FUN!!

So anything you don’t consider to be fun has to be removed, but things which somebody else may like and wish to keep have to be removed, because ‘tough luck my fun is more important’?

That sounds perfectly fair and logical.

And what ‘cleanse order’? There is no such mechanic. Conditions are removed in the reverse order that they are applied. If immobilize isn’t working that way then it’s a bug that needs to be addressed, and we couldn’t even know if balancing changes are needed until it is. But more than likely there is no bug and people are just smart enough to cover the immobilize with other conditions.

Conncept.7638:

Nova Stiker.8396:

runeblade.7514:

I disagree. When I was playing a sword and board war and I was using flurry, people use their 1 second immobilize and then the enemy gets away. I rather not get greifed by my own teammates accidentally every time

You’re just going to have to live with it.
If I use a maxed Skull Bash and a thief uses Pistol Whip, my 3 second stun is turned into 1/2 a second, just how it is.
_________________________________________________
The major issue isn’t stacking on a single person, the big issue is it stacking on MULTIPLE people.

For example, in a group fight, two sword Warriors both use Flurry on two people. Maxed out, that is easily 8-10 SECONDS of immobilize on two people.

Cleanse it right? Well no, it’s a group fight, conditions are being tossed everywhere. Necromancers spamming Marks, Rangers bleeding with Axes and Warriors spreading fire.

Immobilize is LAST on the cleansing order, you’ll get rid of the bleeding but with the amount of conditions being blasted around everywhere on basic attacks, you’re going to be stuck for 10 seconds.

THAT IS NOT FUN!!

So anything you don’t consider to be fun has to be removed, but things which somebody else may like and wish to keep have to be removed, because ‘tough luck my fun is more important’?

That sounds perfectly fair and logical.

So, you enjoy this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IALcvY6cTzw

I am… Amazed.
Check your logic because I believe it is broken.

And yes, there is a cleanse order. PvP more and you’ll see it.