Guild Wars 2

You need to change exactly one thing to keep perma resetting thieves in check (and PU mesmers). Add dimishing return to stealth in WvW. Problem solved.

No thanks. Diminishing returns is bad mechanic in any game in my opinion. It is the worst mechanic to use to prevent a profession from using a mechanic it was designed for. Personally I feel the fact that they are adding reveal to more professions will help with this a fair bit. As well, we need to wait and see how the incoming changing and additions to reveal effect this .

point is only one:
revealed is the worst and unfair mechanic they could have ever developed.
i can understand something like a visibile debuff but prevent to use a whole traitline is just crap.
And it’s more crap that none of devs have thought about that.

mrmadhaze.8706:

point is only one:
revealed is the worst and unfair mechanic they could have ever developed.
i can understand something like a visibile debuff but prevent to use a whole traitline is just crap.
And it’s more crap that none of devs have thought about that.

Revealed is counterplay to a very useful mechanic. Yeah I understand that it blocking out a traitline is bad, but on other professions their own mechanics cancel their own traits out, like with death shroud, the necro class mechanic shutting off the siphoning traits that are the core of the blood magic line.

Its like their idea of things like zerker stance, which can be similarly thought to be unfair. The devs want you to change your strategy during that time period, which I don’t agree with, but thats what they seem to thing.

@mrmadhaze

Well, believe it or not, in the beginning there was no revealed. Believe it or not, stealth was supposed to be used tactically. But betas came around and people found ways to abuse it, so it had to be implemented.

Revealed is not a counterplay is an hardcounter to a mechanic, it’s slighty different.
Like it’s different compare it to deathshround since it’s used both as a attack weapons/defend system.
If you want a counter play you make a visible debuff since it’s what all people cry about, the fact they don’t see the thief.

I just wish they’d gone for the long-duration, no-stealth-in-combat implementation of stealth you find in other MMOs.

Funny, I could have sworn I read a thread a little while back where people QQ’ed that revealed “is not a counter” to stealth for some reason or another.

I too think that classes that have unique class mechanics need to be nerfed.

The issue doesn’t rely in revealed as it does the SA line having too many useful effects that the entire class lacks elsewhere, such as any form of in-combat stat defense and most notably, condition cleansing.

If more condition cleansing was added to the class, SA would be a very niche trait line, and revealed would be a hard counter to stealth-based builds. That’s totally fine. If you build to hard-counter stealth, stealth-exclusive players should have a window of vulnerability.

The problem, though, is that thieves can’t get access to important effects without being stealthed. Given slightly better condition cleansing through more trait lines or simply by adding some cleanse effects to existing utility skills, the whole stealth and Shadow Arts debacle wouldn’t be an issue.

scerevisiae.1972:

I just wish they’d gone for the long-duration, no-stealth-in-combat implementation of stealth you find in other MMOs.

That’s not a bad idea but you know what? If they do this thief is gonna get huge buffs.
At least a surviving buff and then a damage or crowd control buff.

But i’m not against this idea at least pve thief is gonna be good

Stealth is only out of control because a Thief’s initiative regen is out of control. Reign in the numerous traits and secondary methods of regening initiative and the excessive evade spam, over the top mobility, and limitless stealth will actually carry significant risk to the Thief.

Hell, initiative is pretty fine as is, considering that a Thief can easily burn past the entire bar in a few seconds, if they’re careless about their attacks.
Now, as for the SA bit, I’ve been saying for months that ANet needed to start putting more condi-clear and sustain options into Acrobatics line. Mainly because of how over-weighted current SA is for Thief defense, especially when you consider the profession’s near absolute lack of defensive Boons/Stability.
As for the idea of making Stealth less constant of an effect; like scerevisiae mentions? It could work, but that would be even more of a reason to start adding condition clear and sustain to Acrobatics and/or utilities.

Learn to play.
Problem solved. Easy.

DeceiverX.8361:

The issue doesn’t rely in revealed as it does the SA line having too many useful effects that the entire class lacks elsewhere, such as any form of in-combat stat defense and most notably, condition cleansing.

If more condition cleansing was added to the class, SA would be a very niche trait line, and revealed would be a hard counter to stealth-based builds. That’s totally fine. If you build to hard-counter stealth, stealth-exclusive players should have a window of vulnerability.

The problem, though, is that thieves can’t get access to important effects without being stealthed. Given slightly better condition cleansing through more trait lines or simply by adding some cleanse effects to existing utility skills, the whole stealth and Shadow Arts debacle wouldn’t be an issue.

Indeed man, indeed. But doesn’t seem that devs wanna rework thief class. Atleast not in that way looking at patchnotes.

mrmadhaze.8706:

point is only one:
revealed is the worst and unfair mechanic they could have ever developed.
i can understand something like a visibile debuff but prevent to use a whole traitline is just crap.
And it’s more crap that none of devs have thought about that.

Yeah, well if they would have simply made it so damaging a stealth character broke stealth, just like almost every other MMO I have ever played, it we would need no reveal.

Advent.6193:

Now, as for the SA bit, I’ve been saying for months that ANet needed to start putting more condi-clear and sustain options into Acrobatics line. Mainly because of how over-weighted current SA is for Thief defense, especially when you consider the profession’s near absolute lack of defensive Boons/Stability.

Condition are meant to be the thieves weak spot, similar to engineers and warriors (well warriors seem to get away with everything nowadays).

Mayama.1854:

Condition are meant to be the thieves weak spot, similar to engineers and warriors (well warriors seem to get away with everything nowadays).

I’d argue that low base health and minimal access to defensive boons are plenty of weakness. After all, how fast does a glass Thief melt?

Advent.6193:

Mayama.1854:

Condition are meant to be the thieves weak spot, similar to engineers and warriors (well warriors seem to get away with everything nowadays).

I’d argue that low base health and minimal access to defensive boons are plenty of weakness. After all, how fast does a glass Thief melt?

It takes quite a LONG time to kill a thief so whats you problem?

Mayama.1854:

Advent.6193:

Mayama.1854:

Condition are meant to be the thieves weak spot, similar to engineers and warriors (well warriors seem to get away with everything nowadays).

I’d argue that low base health and minimal access to defensive boons are plenty of weakness. After all, how fast does a glass Thief melt?

It takes quite a LONG time to kill a thief so whats you problem?

warrior can kill a thief with 1 attack
necro can kill a thief with 1 fear
ele can kill a thief with 1 attack chain
guardian can kill a thief with like 2-3 GS spells
should i continue?

coglin.1867:

mrmadhaze.8706:

point is only one:
revealed is the worst and unfair mechanic they could have ever developed.
i can understand something like a visibile debuff but prevent to use a whole traitline is just crap.
And it’s more crap that none of devs have thought about that.

Yeah, well if they would have simply made it so damaging a stealth character broke stealth, just like almost every other MMO I have ever played, it we would need no reveal.

in those MMOs, stealth also lasted a whole lot longer than 3 seconds, no?

it’s easier to just delete thieves if you decide any damage tick will put them out of stealth.

coglin.1867:

Yeah, well if they would have simply made it so damaging a stealth character broke stealth, just like almost every other MMO I have ever played, it we would need no reveal.

Other MMOs usually don’t have spamable big AoE cleaving melee attacks you can use without target and hit people in stealth with.

Cynz.9437:

Mayama.1854:

Advent.6193:

Mayama.1854:

Condition are meant to be the thieves weak spot, similar to engineers and warriors (well warriors seem to get away with everything nowadays).

I’d argue that low base health and minimal access to defensive boons are plenty of weakness. After all, how fast does a glass Thief melt?

It takes quite a LONG time to kill a thief so whats you problem?

warrior can kill a thief with 1 attack
necro can kill a thief with 1 fear
ele can kill a thief with 1 attack chain
guardian can kill a thief with like 2-3 GS spells
should i continue?

Yeah totaly true happens all the time, thiefs stand around and wait to be hit all the time. Like guardians are so super squishy with their low HP…

if they can’t fix warrior, i doubt they can actually fix anything besides skill facts.

Everytime I hear sic em! or I am lucky enough to step on a stealth trap and see the reveal debuff on my buff bar, my daggers cringe and all I can think about is…..

WHERE IS MY DPS?!

Ty devs for giving other classes the tool to laugh into my face cos my offence is gone and usually condis are melting me at the same time. But at least dagger aa will cleave xD

in my few thief are stil way to op in pvp
it seems alot use this battle style alot

cloak atack with sword cloak again atack with sword cloak again
and they dance around you

also there damage is very very high maby higher then 100B of warrior
they can kill players in a few second

i see it so much how 1 thief totaly kitten so 3 a 4 players with no problem ad all
and it have nothing to do with learn to play because you dont even have the time to do something

but they do ignore warrior and guardian
maby take to long to kill them

that is what i see very much atm

Make it so that damage a stealthed target destealths them and/or stealthed thief moves alot slower than normal.

I agree with the poster that said Acrobatics defense should be buffed. What would be great for the thief class is to have actual survivability outside of stealth. We need more diversity in builds. Every thief build uses SA in WvW. I’d love to see some D/D evade thieves out there, and not actually dying to condis every 3 seconds, or getting 1 shotted by a warrior. We need defense outside of stealth, which will give players the option of using either Acro for Defense, or Stealth for defense. Maybe even a hybrid of both.

alchemyst.2165:

I agree with the poster that said Acrobatics defense should be buffed. What would be great for the thief class is to have actual survivability outside of stealth. We need more diversity in builds. Every thief build uses SA in WvW. I’d love to see some D/D evade thieves out there, and not actually dying to condis every 3 seconds, or getting 1 shotted by a warrior. We need defense outside of stealth, which will give players the option of using either Acro for Defense, or Stealth for defense. Maybe even a hybrid of both.

Acrobatic needs buff?.. never faced an s/d thief in pvp have u?.. , its getting nerfed this patch for good reasons.

Mayama.1854:

You need to change exactly one thing to keep perma resetting thieves in check (and PU mesmers). Add dimishing return to stealth in WvW. Problem solved.

Incorrect. Change Black Powder (Pistol offhand #5) to a dark field. No more easy access to stealth, you have to start using all the utilities or dagger offhand to do it (which is really easily countered).

Stealth in any game is unbalanced. It should be a 1 trick pony or maybe 2 if traited but this is nonsense

McWolfy.5924:

Stealth in any game is unbalanced. It should be a 1 trick pony or maybe 2 if traited but this is nonsense

That would force dev to completely rework a class like thief and i don’t think they want to do this.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Mayama.1854:

You need to change exactly one thing to keep perma resetting thieves in check (and PU mesmers). Add dimishing return to stealth in WvW. Problem solved.

Incorrect. Change Black Powder (Pistol offhand #5) to a dark field. No more easy access to stealth, you have to start using all the utilities or dagger offhand to do it (which is really easily countered).

yeah it’s just gonna break D/P build since it’s based on stealth + blind to do something.

without smoke field => no stealth => no recurring backstab => the build is useless.

“But you have other utilities to do this”

One is a heal you don’t want to waste and that not everyone is running, there is blinding powder that not everyone run and have a cd and SR that is not meant to be used to backstab AT ALL.

It takes something like between 3 and 5 backstab to kill someone

Lifestealer.4910:

Acrobatic needs buff?.. never faced an s/d thief in pvp have u?.. , its getting nerfed this patch for good reasons.

Acrobatics needs a buff in the sense of condi-clear/sustain options. You’re confusing that with straight-off Evasion. And Evasion is doing reasonably well, although I’d not say well enough to need more Nerfbat to the face. My point was, that if Thieves could use either Shadow Arts or Acrobatics to handle their condi-clear and/or passive heal options, you’d most likely see a lot less SA Thieves running around.

I think that sitting in stealth for more than 5 seconds should automatically take you and your opponent/s out of combat resetting the fight for everyone.

let the personal attacks commence…

shinigamith.7120:

McWolfy.5924:

Stealth in any game is unbalanced. It should be a 1 trick pony or maybe 2 if traited but this is nonsense

That would force dev to completely rework a class like thief and i don’t think they want to do this.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Mayama.1854:

You need to change exactly one thing to keep perma resetting thieves in check (and PU mesmers). Add dimishing return to stealth in WvW. Problem solved.

Incorrect. Change Black Powder (Pistol offhand #5) to a dark field. No more easy access to stealth, you have to start using all the utilities or dagger offhand to do it (which is really easily countered).

yeah it’s just gonna break D/P build since it’s based on stealth + blind to do something.

without smoke field => no stealth => no recurring backstab => the build is useless.

“But you have other utilities to do this”

One is a heal you don’t want to waste and that not everyone is running, there is blinding powder that not everyone run and have a cd and SR that is not meant to be used to backstab AT ALL.

It takes something like between 3 and 5 backstab to kill someone

Well it’s where the entirety of the complaints about thief stealth come from sir. Either it’s nerfed to destroy the spam and gets rid of all of the complaints so we as an entire class can get properly buffed, or it stays and the class itself keep getting nerfed because we’re dancing around the reason why people complain about stealth.

• EITHER give them perma stealth with 1 in combat re-stealth (to choose between double opening or escaping) OR give them a stealth bar, ala Titanfall, that gives them stealth as a resource that diminishes as its used and has only minimal ability to be recharged in combat.
• give them 15k base HP.
• redesign damage and traits to be balanced around surviving more “out of stealth time.”

thats the only way to do it, and its never, ever going to happen.

Just pointing out a few things:

1.) There is no such thing as “perma” anything for the thief. If a thief was “perma-resetting” they would be immortal which is just exaggerating a falacy.

2.) You can’t “abuse” a mechanic the developers purposefully made. If that was the case then mesmers abuse their phantasm spam, elementalists abuse their attunement swapping, necros abuse their death shroud, engineers abuse their kits and turret spam, warriors abuse their bursts and adrenaline gain, guards abuse their virtues and rangers abuse their pets and all of them should be nerfed because of it.

3.) Just about everyone complaining about spam forgets that the both weaponsets get put on full cooldown when they run out of initiative. But also most of their attacks are hardly that damaging. You get the ability to spam for plenty of weak attacks and all of them reliant on an exhaustible resource. So the whole design is balanced.

4.) REALLY IMPORTANT: PvP is a competitive setting. In a competitive setting, it is guaranteed that one player is going to use every class and game mechanic to win. Just because that one player reks you with “cheesy” mechanics doesn’t stop you from using the same “cheesy” mechanics or finding some other “cheesy” mechanic to counter it. But if you are unwilling to put forth the effort to win, then you will not get your win. In which case you should not be pvping in the first place.

Mayama.1854:

Condition are meant to be the thieves weak spot, similar to engineers and warriors (well warriors seem to get away with everything nowadays).

I am pretty sure condi were ‘supposed’ to be a warrior’s weak spot as well but we all know how that turned out. Can’t go claiming what is and isn’t a ‘weak spot’ because those devs of ours can turn on a dime, should their new favorite class of the year be something new soon.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Everytime I hear sic em! or I am lucky enough to step on a stealth trap and see the reveal debuff on my buff bar, my daggers cringe and all I can think about is…..

WHERE IS MY DPS?!

Ty devs for giving other classes the tool to laugh into my face cos my offence is gone and usually condis are melting me at the same time. But at least dagger aa will cleave xD

That would be in your #2 spot. Heartseekers for 6k are insane…

yolo swaggins.2570:

Just pointing out a few things:

1.) There is no such thing as “perma” anything for the thief. If a thief was “perma-resetting” they would be immortal which is just exaggerating a falacy..

Thieves can reset at will as often as they want. To proof it you just need to watch a twitch or youtube video from any decent thief. I mean theirs even a good example on the thief forum right now, the video of that engi that duels P/D thieves. In every single video the thief constantly reseted the fight and only died because he overextended or did a stupid mistake. Its known throughout the community that a thief can reset as often as he wants if he knows what he does.

Otaur.9268:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Everytime I hear sic em! or I am lucky enough to step on a stealth trap and see the reveal debuff on my buff bar, my daggers cringe and all I can think about is…..

WHERE IS MY DPS?!

Ty devs for giving other classes the tool to laugh into my face cos my offence is gone and usually condis are melting me at the same time. But at least dagger aa will cleave xD

That would be in your #2 spot. Heartseekers for 6k are insane…

Sure that kind of heartseeker is nice, too bad the target needs to be 25% HP or lower for that.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Otaur.9268:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

Everytime I hear sic em! or I am lucky enough to step on a stealth trap and see the reveal debuff on my buff bar, my daggers cringe and all I can think about is…..

WHERE IS MY DPS?!

Ty devs for giving other classes the tool to laugh into my face cos my offence is gone and usually condis are melting me at the same time. But at least dagger aa will cleave xD

That would be in your #2 spot. Heartseekers for 6k are insane…

Sure that kind of heartseeker is nice, too bad the target needs to be 25% HP or lower for that.

Tbh all those finisher skills or traits that deal more damage if someone has low HP make the game to bursty. Im playing alot of necro right now and its basicaly a joke that you can constantly throw 5-6k life blasts around in death shroud if someone is under 50% hp.

thief should have its footsteps shown in the ground with a 1-2 second delayed effect when stealthing

Azure.8670:

thief should have its footsteps shown in the ground with a 1-2 second delayed effect when stealthing

Whats the point of stealth…..If you can see where they are?

Good players can already practically see exactly where a thief is in stealth. You just have to look at the clues and hints and predict what they’re going to do.

Mayama.1854:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Just pointing out a few things:

1.) There is no such thing as “perma” anything for the thief. If a thief was “perma-resetting” they would be immortal which is just exaggerating a falacy..

Thieves can reset at will as often as they want. To proof it you just need to watch a twitch or youtube video from any decent thief. I mean theirs even a good example on the thief forum right now, the video of that engi that duels P/D thieves. In every single video the thief constantly reseted the fight and only died because he overextended or did a stupid mistake. Its known throughout the community that a thief can reset as often as he wants if he knows what he does.

That still isn’t perma-resetting.

Secondly, resetting is a double-edged sword since both parties get reset; not to mention that if the thief keeps resetting, it means that the other player is superior. All said player has to do is manage their snares better and up their DPS and they will get their kill. So there shouldn’t be a problem here.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Mayama.1854:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Just pointing out a few things:

1.) There is no such thing as “perma” anything for the thief. If a thief was “perma-resetting” they would be immortal which is just exaggerating a falacy..

Thieves can reset at will as often as they want. To proof it you just need to watch a twitch or youtube video from any decent thief. I mean theirs even a good example on the thief forum right now, the video of that engi that duels P/D thieves. In every single video the thief constantly reseted the fight and only died because he overextended or did a stupid mistake. Its known throughout the community that a thief can reset as often as he wants if he knows what he does.

That still isn’t perma-resetting.

Secondly, resetting is a double-edged sword since both parties get reset; not to mention that if the thief keeps resetting, it means that the other player is superior. All said player has to do is manage their snares better and up their DPS and they will get their kill. So there shouldn’t be a problem here.

Yeah it kinda is “perma-resetting” in this context.

As far as the “double edge sword” aspect, thats is not the case. Which is in itself the problem. A thief not skilled enough to kill another play can keep “perma-resetting” and try again all they like. That is an option that no other profession has. No other profession can play badly AND get away with it by resetting to try again. When other professions play badly, they die.

coglin.1867:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Mayama.1854:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Just pointing out a few things:

1.) There is no such thing as “perma” anything for the thief. If a thief was “perma-resetting” they would be immortal which is just exaggerating a falacy..

Thieves can reset at will as often as they want. To proof it you just need to watch a twitch or youtube video from any decent thief. I mean theirs even a good example on the thief forum right now, the video of that engi that duels P/D thieves. In every single video the thief constantly reseted the fight and only died because he overextended or did a stupid mistake. Its known throughout the community that a thief can reset as often as he wants if he knows what he does.

That still isn’t perma-resetting.

Secondly, resetting is a double-edged sword since both parties get reset; not to mention that if the thief keeps resetting, it means that the other player is superior. All said player has to do is manage their snares better and up their DPS and they will get their kill. So there shouldn’t be a problem here.

Yeah it kinda is “perma-resetting” in this context.

As far as the “double edge sword” aspect, thats is not the case. Which is in itself the problem. A thief not skilled enough to kill another play can keep “perma-resetting” and try again all they like. That is an option that no other profession has. No other profession can play badly AND get away with it by resetting to try again. When other professions play badly, they die.

my necro with her 2 HP bars and 50k in plague would like a word with you
same goes for any warrior with healing signet, cleansing ire and dogged march, especially nike build

coglin.1867:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Mayama.1854:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Just pointing out a few things:

1.) There is no such thing as “perma” anything for the thief. If a thief was “perma-resetting” they would be immortal which is just exaggerating a falacy..

Thieves can reset at will as often as they want. To proof it you just need to watch a twitch or youtube video from any decent thief. I mean theirs even a good example on the thief forum right now, the video of that engi that duels P/D thieves. In every single video the thief constantly reseted the fight and only died because he overextended or did a stupid mistake. Its known throughout the community that a thief can reset as often as he wants if he knows what he does.

That still isn’t perma-resetting.

Secondly, resetting is a double-edged sword since both parties get reset; not to mention that if the thief keeps resetting, it means that the other player is superior. All said player has to do is manage their snares better and up their DPS and they will get their kill. So there shouldn’t be a problem here.

Yeah it kinda is “perma-resetting” in this context.

As far as the “double edge sword” aspect, thats is not the case. Which is in itself the problem. A thief not skilled enough to kill another play can keep “perma-resetting” and try again all they like. That is an option that no other profession has. No other profession can play badly AND get away with it by resetting to try again. When other professions play badly, they die.

Actually, not true. A few other classes can do that. Warrior is a prime example.

And as he said, them resetting basically means that you win, so what is the issue? Just cus you don’t get your bag doesn’t mean you didn’t win the fight.

coglin.1867:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Mayama.1854:

yolo swaggins.2570:

Just pointing out a few things:

1.) There is no such thing as “perma” anything for the thief. If a thief was “perma-resetting” they would be immortal which is just exaggerating a falacy..

Thieves can reset at will as often as they want. To proof it you just need to watch a twitch or youtube video from any decent thief. I mean theirs even a good example on the thief forum right now, the video of that engi that duels P/D thieves. In every single video the thief constantly reseted the fight and only died because he overextended or did a stupid mistake. Its known throughout the community that a thief can reset as often as he wants if he knows what he does.

That still isn’t perma-resetting.

Secondly, resetting is a double-edged sword since both parties get reset; not to mention that if the thief keeps resetting, it means that the other player is superior. All said player has to do is manage their snares better and up their DPS and they will get their kill. So there shouldn’t be a problem here.

Yeah it kinda is “perma-resetting” in this context.

As far as the “double edge sword” aspect, thats is not the case. Which is in itself the problem. A thief not skilled enough to kill another play can keep “perma-resetting” and try again all they like. That is an option that no other profession has. No other profession can play badly AND get away with it by resetting to try again. When other professions play badly, they die.

By “perma-resetting” I mean permanently resetting, meaning no breaks in the reset meaning no getting into combat. If perma-resetting was a real thing, then no matter how much damage is dealt to either party, neither of them would be able to keep up with the reset healing unless both were zerk (maybe) because neither would be in combat and would trigger the reset.

So back to my original point: “perma” is purely meant to garner support using exaggeration.

gimmick class is gimmick..just give every other class a “+5 second stealth on hit” to ballance the game.