Guild Wars 2

In my mind shealth shood cancle channel skills not oly it makes no sence but its also easy to see were ur stealth enemy is going and also ur allys can track ppl like this.

You’re pointing a 2 years-old problem here But yeah i totally agree i’m tired of seeing ppl following me while i’m stealthed.

shinigamith.7120:

You’re pointing a 2 years-old problem here But yeah i totally agree i’m tired of seeing ppl following me while i’m stealthed.

i.e you want there to be no counter play to your ability. Not gonna happen my friends, especially with all the QQ about how OP stealth is right now.

Maybe because those skills are heat (magic?) seeking und stealth makes you only invisible…

It makes as much sense as it doesnt…

They should probably make you invulnerable in stealth too. I mean we all know spamming is bad, so why should people be able to spam AoE and #1 and kill you while you’re stealth? Just promoting more spam not skilled play like stealth.

It probably relates to their terrible AI system they have. Back when stealth used to drop agro, did channeled skills still hit through stealth or did it stop after 2 seconds due to losing agro?

I imagine it’s all related.

Bryzy.2719:

shinigamith.7120:

You’re pointing a 2 years-old problem here But yeah i totally agree i’m tired of seeing ppl following me while i’m stealthed.

i.e you want there to be no counter play to your ability. Not gonna happen my friends, especially with all the QQ about how OP stealth is right now.

That’s not a counterplay that’s a design flaw. About the OP Stealth as allways => L2P my “friend”.

Muchacho.2390:

Maybe because those skills are heat (magic?) seeking und stealth makes you only invisible…

It makes as much sense as it doesnt…

There is no logic in gw2 i call it a bad design i’m not gonna search in the lore why it is not working as it should be.

Cufufalating.8479:

They should probably make you invulnerable in stealth too. I mean we all know spamming is bad, so why should people be able to spam AoE and #1 and kill you while you’re stealth? Just promoting more spam not skilled play like stealth.

You just didn’t understand that we are not complaining about #1 and Aoe…but about chanelling skills..as allways ppl talk and don’t know why

PS: That’s allways funny to see casual complaining about stealth

i think its fine as it is tbh, stealth is probably the best defensive system in this game besides invulnerabilitys, but these r rly rly short duration with a rly long cd so ignore em

and the counterplay with channeled skills is fine, actually its not rly that much of a counterplay, for example gs1mesmer, or scepter air 1 on ele does dmg in stealth if casted before stealth, but it doesnt show the one using it where the thief is unless u got fire sigil, its invicible for the user, only the one in stealth knows that he is getting hit

ofc there are skills like unload as well, or the pistol phantasm, exactly these 2 r real neat counterplays to stealth, it shows exactly where the enemy is and where he is going

ops, forgot ranger lbow2 and war rifle (the channeled skill wich is similar to rangers rapid fire), these work as well

Wyrden.4713:

i think its fine as it is tbh, stealth is probably the best defensive system in this game besides invulnerabilitys, but these r rly rly short duration with a rly long cd so ignore em

and the counterplay with channeled skills is fine, actually its not rly that much of a counterplay, for example gs1mesmer, or scepter air 1 on ele does dmg in stealth if casted before stealth, but it doesnt show the one using it where the thief is unless u got fire sigil, its invicible for the user, only the one in stealth knows that he is getting hit

ofc there are skills like unload as well, or the pistol phantasm, exactly these 2 r real neat counterplays to stealth, it shows exactly where the enemy is and where he is going

ops, forgot ranger lbow2 and war rifle (the channeled skill wich is similar to rangers rapid fire), these work as well

Let’s make it clear:

What’s the point of stealth?:

-Nobody can see you and we can only guess where you are
-You can’t be targeted

When you cast a targeting channeled spell before the stealth user go into stealth what happen?:

-Nobody can see you but everyone know exactly where you are
-You can’t be targeted but are still targeted by the hability

Why is it wrong?:

-It simply break stealth.

About counterplay: you make a counterplay when there is some mindgame. Here it’s not question of mindgame, AI allways follow you when you are in stealth simply because you are targeted by it that’s just a broken mechanic.

Stealth needs more counter and not less.

shinigamith.7120:

Bryzy.2719:

shinigamith.7120:

You’re pointing a 2 years-old problem here But yeah i totally agree i’m tired of seeing ppl following me while i’m stealthed.

i.e you want there to be no counter play to your ability. Not gonna happen my friends, especially with all the QQ about how OP stealth is right now.

That’s not a counterplay that’s a design flaw. About the OP Stealth as allways => L2P my “friend”.

Muchacho.2390:

Maybe because those skills are heat (magic?) seeking und stealth makes you only invisible…

It makes as much sense as it doesnt…

There is no logic in gw2 i call it a bad design i’m not gonna search in the lore why it is not working as it should be.

Cufufalating.8479:

They should probably make you invulnerable in stealth too. I mean we all know spamming is bad, so why should people be able to spam AoE and #1 and kill you while you’re stealth? Just promoting more spam not skilled play like stealth.

You just didn’t understand that we are not complaining about #1 and Aoe…but about chanelling skills..as allways ppl talk and don’t know why

PS: That’s allways funny to see casual complaining about stealth

No, it’s counter-play. A thief’s primary strength is its ability to stealth. If there are no ways for other professions to be able to defend themselves against this, that would be a design flaw. Also, I never personally said stealth is OP; I referenced the general QQ about stealth on the forums. But yeah, way to add to the stereotype that all thieves are 12 year old kids spouting “L2P!!” at everyone who disagrees with a functionality of their profession. But whatever, you’ll be stuck with this whether you like it or not. So suck it.

You’re looking at it from the wrong angle.

you shouldn’t stealth if someone is casting, especially if the -only- reason they did it is to get a general idea of where you’re headed.

Bryzy.2719:

shinigamith.7120:

Bryzy.2719:

shinigamith.7120:

You’re pointing a 2 years-old problem here But yeah i totally agree i’m tired of seeing ppl following me while i’m stealthed.

i.e you want there to be no counter play to your ability. Not gonna happen my friends, especially with all the QQ about how OP stealth is right now.

That’s not a counterplay that’s a design flaw. About the OP Stealth as allways => L2P my “friend”.

Muchacho.2390:

Maybe because those skills are heat (magic?) seeking und stealth makes you only invisible…

It makes as much sense as it doesnt…

There is no logic in gw2 i call it a bad design i’m not gonna search in the lore why it is not working as it should be.

Cufufalating.8479:

They should probably make you invulnerable in stealth too. I mean we all know spamming is bad, so why should people be able to spam AoE and #1 and kill you while you’re stealth? Just promoting more spam not skilled play like stealth.

You just didn’t understand that we are not complaining about #1 and Aoe…but about chanelling skills..as allways ppl talk and don’t know why

PS: That’s allways funny to see casual complaining about stealth

No, it’s counter-play. A thief’s primary strength is its ability to stealth. If there are no ways for other professions to be able to defend themselves against this, that would be a design flaw. Also, I never personally said stealth is OP; I referenced the general QQ about stealth on the forums. But yeah, way to add to the stereotype that all thieves are 12 year old kids spouting “L2P!!” at everyone who disagrees with a functionality of their profession. But whatever, you’ll be stuck with this whether you like it or not. So suck it.

First we are not discussing about thief but stealth don’t bring the debate here.

Then, something that break a mechanic like this is not a counter-play it’s a hard counter. The difference is simple: a counter-play can be avoided if you mind that your oponent is gonna counter you. Here you can’t avoid the fact that targetting chaneled spells follow you.

Finally, there are currently ways to defend yourself against stealth (and particullary thieves as it seems like you want to talk about it):

-Aoe spamming. the stealth user will still take them (and in the case of a thief, since the profession have no hp it’s very efficient)
-If you don’t have recurring aoe you still can spam #1

And that’s it you have your soft counter to stealth

“But hey i don’t know where the thief is”: L2P issue the thief is allmost everytime behind you

Yeah it takes time to mind where the stealth user can be and it’s the l2p issue and that’s why when someone say “stealth op” we reply “l2p”. I’m not the big pvp user i used to be the day the game has been released but i’m still able to guess at any time where a stealth user is gonna be when i’m fighting one because i’m simply used to it.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

You’re looking at it from the wrong angle.

you shouldn’t stealth if someone is casting, especially if the -only- reason they did it is to get a general idea of where you’re headed.

Interresting post

In the case of a pvp group fight you can’t allways know or even be aware of who is attacking you. Since heavy stealth users can’t stand more than a few shot it’s totally inapropriate to have a mean to lock the user out of stealth.

If you are solo i agree with you it’s a l2p issue for the stealth user.

In the case of pve or pve+pvp fight anyway AI allways target you and allways know where you are => you don’t have the eternity to wait.

Now we can all agree that GW2 is not a solo game. The only moment that it’s a l2P issue for the stealth user is when you are in a solo fight that mean that in a vast majority of the game stealth user suffer of it.

shinigamith.7120:

Bryzy.2719:

shinigamith.7120:

Bryzy.2719:

shinigamith.7120:

You’re pointing a 2 years-old problem here But yeah i totally agree i’m tired of seeing ppl following me while i’m stealthed.

i.e you want there to be no counter play to your ability. Not gonna happen my friends, especially with all the QQ about how OP stealth is right now.

That’s not a counterplay that’s a design flaw. About the OP Stealth as allways => L2P my “friend”.

Muchacho.2390:

Maybe because those skills are heat (magic?) seeking und stealth makes you only invisible…

It makes as much sense as it doesnt…

There is no logic in gw2 i call it a bad design i’m not gonna search in the lore why it is not working as it should be.

Cufufalating.8479:

They should probably make you invulnerable in stealth too. I mean we all know spamming is bad, so why should people be able to spam AoE and #1 and kill you while you’re stealth? Just promoting more spam not skilled play like stealth.

You just didn’t understand that we are not complaining about #1 and Aoe…but about chanelling skills..as allways ppl talk and don’t know why

PS: That’s allways funny to see casual complaining about stealth

No, it’s counter-play. A thief’s primary strength is its ability to stealth. If there are no ways for other professions to be able to defend themselves against this, that would be a design flaw. Also, I never personally said stealth is OP; I referenced the general QQ about stealth on the forums. But yeah, way to add to the stereotype that all thieves are 12 year old kids spouting “L2P!!” at everyone who disagrees with a functionality of their profession. But whatever, you’ll be stuck with this whether you like it or not. So suck it.

First we are not discussing about thief but stealth don’t bring the debate here.

Then, something that break a mechanic like this is not a counter-play it’s a hard counter. The difference is simple: a counter-play can be avoided if you mind that your oponent is gonna counter you. Here you can’t avoid the fact that targetting chaneled spells follow you.

Finally, there are currently ways to defend yourself against stealth (and particullary thieves as it seems like you want to talk about it):

-Aoe spamming. the stealth user will still take them (and in the case of a thief, since the profession have no hp it’s very efficient)
-If you don’t have recurring aoe you still can spam #1

And that’s it you have your soft counter to stealth

“But hey i don’t know where the thief is”: L2P issue the thief is allmost everytime behind you

Yeah it takes time to mind where the stealth user can be and it’s the l2p issue and that’s why when someone say “stealth op” we reply “l2p”.

Actually, you are clearly referencing thieves as I can see all your past forum posts and it’s obvious you main a thief. Also, you can avoid channeled casts, even in stealth, by doing something called dodging. Additionally, all other professions have very limited channeling skills that will follow you through stealth, so most of the time a thief is fighting, those skills will be on cooldown. Not to mention the fact that dodging will allow you to avoid most of the damage from things like Rapid Fire. I’d say this is more of a “L2P issue” for you.

ALL professions have means do deal with stealth, via AOE dmg, cleave, applying reveled and even auto attack (as a thief is what i do, auto attack)
Devs keep adding more and more counters to stealth so stop the stealth is op whinning and L2P.

This is an issue that has been in game since beta and was never addressed, since a-net is adding more and more counters to stealth i also believe that the time as come to FIX this.

going off topic a bit, devs are giving other professions tools to specifically lock down thieves, when can we expect tools to lock OTHER specific professions to?

Volrath.1473:

ALL professions have means do deal with stealth, via AOE dmg, cleave, applying reveled and even auto attack (as a thief is what i do, auto attack)
Devs keep adding more and more counters to stealth so stop the stealth is op whinning and L2P.

This is an issue that has been in game since beta and was never addressed, since a-net is adding more and more counters to stealth i also believe that the time as come to FIX this.

going off topic a bit, devs are giving other professions tools to specifically lock down thieves, when can we expect tools to lock OTHER specific professions to?

u said stealth is univeral and affects several proffession, then u said the devs giving counterplays to thief by giving them tools against stealth.

pls.

channeled skills r fine as they r, dont try to change that, they r very limited either.

Volrath.1473:

This is an issue that has been in game since beta and was never addressed, since a-net is adding more and more counters to stealth i also believe that the time as come to FIX this.

Yes, but maybe it is intended and Anet doesnt want to change it. So why should they fix something that works exectly like they want it to work.

And if it isnt working as intended, why didnt they fix it already. And I am certain it is not the first time someone reported this, so they should know. Maybe they dont know how to fix it (unlikely) or it is simply to much hassle to fix it so they ignore it (also unlikely). It also could be a low priotity thing (more likely if unintended). Well in this case lets wait and see. At somepoint it will be fixed.

I think the most likely case is that it works fine enough for them not to warrent a change. And i also dont think it is as much of a deal, since it is rather easy to adapt to it as player with stealth.

Wyrden.4713:

channeled skills r fine as they r, dont try to change that, they r very limited either.

“very limited”: no they are common. Every skill that have a casting time and target someone may reveal where the stealth user is as soon as you used it before your target go into stealth.

When you have an ai in your opponents the ai allways follow you (bird/dog/ranger pet in sPvp, mesmer clone, pve content that is inside WvW, other pve content that is in sPvP like svanir and so.)

I’d be fine with this change if there were other ways to counter stealth.

For instance, if the player was revealed whenever they became downed, and the player would always be revealed whenever exiting stealth, even when not attacking someone (i.e. removing CnD chain stealthing). Perhaps the character would even be revealed when a certain number of hits were received while in stealth, meaning they have to be properly evasive and a person who correctly reads the positioning of a stealthed enemy could be rewarded for guessing correctly.

While it doesn’t make sense, it’s relatively trivial. There are very few abilities that track and which deal enough damage to be meaningful.

It’s the only counter to stealth in the game. So, no, not unless more skills get the revealed debuff (like Sic ’em) or revealed is applied every time someone comes out of stealth.

Bryzy.2719:

Also, you can avoid channeled casts, even in stealth, by doing something called dodging.

Dodging do not fix the fact that the guy know where you are and that you can be nuked by one of his allies.

Bryzy.2719:

Not to mention the fact that dodging will allow you to avoid most of the damage from things like Rapid Fire

Just. No.

One dodge allow you to avoid the damages of 1 or 2 shots if you timed it really well and you really don’t want to dodge twice…

Bryzy.2719:

Actually, you are clearly referencing thieves as I can see all your past forum posts and it’s obvious you main a thief.

So you basically base your answer on the fact that:

I mainly post on the thief thread so it’s obvious that i main thief (it’s clearly not obvious i play ele/guardian/war and i don’t post in their thread simply because those profession are in a very fine spot) so as a “main thief” i’m here to QQ because i want my main to be more op and so i’m wrong.

Actually you are clearly in the spot of the guy who have no arguments

Sarrs.4831:

While it doesn’t make sense, it’s relatively trivial. There are very few abilities that track and which deal enough damage to be meaningful.

If you find it trivial you don’t have any problem with the fact that this could be fixed. This would not change a lot of things and would be a life aid

Holland.9351:

It’s the only counter to stealth in the game. So, no, not unless more skills get the revealed debuff (like Sic ’em) or revealed is applied every time someone comes out of stealth.

Explain me what is spamming Aoe and #1 against a stealthed target for you? For me it’s the major stealth counter.

Yamsandjams.3267:

I’d be fine with this change if there were other ways to counter stealth.

For instance, if the player was revealed whenever they became downed, and the player would always be revealed whenever exiting stealth, even when not attacking someone (i.e. removing CnD chain stealthing). Perhaps the character would even be revealed when a certain number of hits were received while in stealth, meaning they have to be properly evasive and a person who correctly reads the positioning of a stealthed enemy could be rewarded for guessing correctly.

Applying revealed no matter how you left stealth seems like the most logical thing to do.

Revealing Thieves when they take a certain amount of damage in stealth (% of max HP) sounds reasonable too.

shinigamith.7120:

If you find it trivial you don’t have any problem with the fact that this could be fixed. This would not change a lot of things and would be a life aid

If it does not change a lot of things, why bother? It’s potentially a change with a lot of fallout which doesn’t have much benefit.

Sarrs.4831:

shinigamith.7120:

If you find it trivial you don’t have any problem with the fact that this could be fixed. This would not change a lot of things and would be a life aid

If it does not change a lot of things, why bother? It’s potentially a change with a lot of fallout which doesn’t have much benefit.

As i said it would be a life aid, and unlike you i don’t find this trivial even if it do not really touch a lot of things.

So let me get this straight. In an action combat game, in which dodging is designs as the main form of damage mitigation. You exploit stealth to circumvent that mechanic. Then cry when other players use channeling a skill, to circumvent a mechanic that you are using to circumvent one of the most integral and main universal game mechanic. Maybe it is just me, but this complain seems to me. to fall deep on the side of unreasonable hypocrisy (to put it politely) to me.

shinigamith.7120:

Dodging do not fix the fact that the guy know where you are and that you can be nuked by one of his allies.

I repeat, this is COUNTER-PLAY. Christ, talk about a circular argument.

So they know where you are? Welcome to what every other profession without stealth has to deal with 24/7!

Also, don’t dismiss my dodging assertion with a “just no”. I’ve been maining Ranger since early access and have used rapid fire thousands of times. A single dodge from a player will mitigate between a 3rd and a half of rapid fire’s total damage output dependent on how they strafe when entering and leaving the dodge, so don’t even go there. Furthermore, skills that are being channeled against you can be nullified by simply moving beyond the angle of view of the attacking character, which cancels their channeling. Your arguments have no basis other than “Urgh I’m sick of people being able to kill me! QQ why does the most powerful and abusable ability in the game have to have counter-play?! QQ”.

Its been around since the start, those who want to see stealth buffed claim its a bug and should be fixed. Those who dont want to see stealth buffed claim its a feature.

This is not about what makes sense or what is logical. Afterall this is a videogame, people conjure magical stuff. Planting a banner into the ground counts as a blastfinisher, but a steel-packed keg of explosive powder does not. People become tornado’s from drinking a potion, and these tornado’s are vulnerable to physical damage.
A regular bullet pierces through several targets, but a shot so powerful it knocks the wielder back doesnt, and travels not even half the distance.
Dont look for logical sense, its not an excuse because most of the game doesnt make sense.

So we end up with one way to view such mechanics, and thats balance. Currently Stealth is already incredibly powerful, and absolutely in no need of getting buffed. arenanet seems to agree with this stance as they are infact introducing more counter-mechanics against stealth. So removing existing ones makes no sense then.

coglin.1867:

So let me get this straight. In an action combat game, in which dodging is designs as the main form of damage mitigation. You exploit stealth to circumvent that mechanic. Then cry when other players use channeling a skill, to circumvent a mechanic that you are using to circumvent one of the most integral and main universal game mechanic. Maybe it is just me, but this complain seems to me. to fall deep on the side of unreasonable hypocrisy (to put it politely) to me.

The reasoning is nice but you’re wrong at it’s start:

Dodging is not designed as the main form of damage mitigation. Actually it’s more designed to avoid a threat that can be either damage or crowd control. If you want a damage mitigation dedicated system you have toughness and the protection boon wich are the main form of damage mitigation since they are 100% dedicated to it.

That said when i use stealth i want to buy time and to take the hand and decide when the fight is gonna continue. Note that I still can take damages and crowd control during the stealth so im not trying to circumvent the dodge mechanic.

Bryzy.2719:

shinigamith.7120:

Dodging do not fix the fact that the guy know where you are and that you can be nuked by one of his allies.

I repeat, this is COUNTER-PLAY. Christ, talk about a circular argument.

I send you back to my counter-play/hard-counter differences explanation.

Bryzy.2719:

So they know where you are? Welcome to what every other profession without stealth has to deal with 24/7!

Yes and i’m happy that you go in my way since every other profession without stealth do have (not all of what i’m gonna mention but some of it) aegis/protection/higher toughness/higher hp/better sustain/invulnerability/better-more crowd control/stability/better condition clearing/block/better-more stun break and i think i forgot some.

really if i’m with a bunker ele right in the middle of the fight i absolutely don’t care if the ennemy see me or not that’s 100% not my problem and pretty much every other profession can say the same (maybe not ranger ok)

Bryzy.2719:

Furthermore, skills that are being channeled against you can be nullified by simply moving beyond the angle of view of the attacking character, which cancels their channeling.

Yes but you can’t allways move beyond this point it depend on a lot of factor (is the caster far from you? do the terrain allow you to do this? do you have enough time to do this or is it better to choose another option? how many cooldowns do you have actually? are you even aware of where is the caster when you take your first damages?).

Actually on one hand you have someone that press one button and do damages and don’t have to bother about anything and on the other hand you have someone that have to mind about it

Bryzy.2719:

Your arguments have no basis other than “Urgh I’m sick of people being able to kill me! QQ why does the most powerful and abusable ability in the game have to have counter-play?! QQ”.

In almost every post you make you take 50% of your time being arogant and denigrate people. I’m sorry but actually you are the one looking more like a 12yo kid.
I spend my time proving my point of view with facts while you where searching what profession i was maining

Terrahero.9358:

Its been around since the start, those who want to see stealth buffed claim its a bug and should be fixed. Those who dont want to see stealth buffed claim its a feature.

This is not about what makes sense or what is logical. Afterall this is a videogame, people conjure magical stuff. Planting a banner into the ground counts as a blastfinisher, but a steel-packed keg of explosive powder does not. People become tornado’s from drinking a potion, and these tornado’s are vulnerable to physical damage.
Dont look for logical sense, its not an excuse because most of the game doesnt make sense.

So we end up with one way to view such mechanics, and thats balance. Currently Stealth is already incredibly powerful, and absolutely in no need of getting buffed. arenanet seems to agree with this stance as they are infact introducing more counter-mechanics against stealth. So removing existing ones makes no sense then.

I don’t want stealth to be buffed i consider it’s a fix. On the other hand i have no problem with the new revealing skills that are added to the other professions since i consider it as a real counter-play.

@shinigamith

Your “hard vs soft” counter-play argument is entirely subjective. Who are you to decide what constitutes hard or soft counter play? The only measure of determining that is how good the player is at handling that counter play. So that’s one of your arguments voided straight off.

Also, it’s ironic how you make excuses for not being able to counter-play skill channeling. Remember how you wrote about how there are options for “soft” counter-play to stealth like AoE and auto attack? Well guess what, they are both situational too. What if AoE attacks are on cool down? What if the AoE attacks are placed nowhere near you (as they can’t see you)? What if you don’t have a viable auto attack for doing that? In fact, the only weapons that have a chance at doing that are the greatswords, and even then given thieves’ mobility those auto attacks are easy to escape. Your second argument is voided.

You have presented no facts. All you have done is given anecdotal evidence laced with hyberbole and a wholly biased view towards stealth without being willing to look at the bigger picture. You have also chosen to ignore all the logical rebukes people have given on here. Every other post you make just makes you look more stupid. You have no argumentative legs left to stand on.

Bryzy.2719:

@shinigamith

Your “hard vs soft” counter-play argument is entirely subjective. Who are you to decide what constitutes hard or soft counter play? The only measure of determining that is how good the player is at handling that counter play. So that’s one of your arguments voided straight off.

A hard counter leave you with no satisfying option unlike a soft counter. That’s not subjective.

Bryzy.2719:

Remember how you wrote about how there are options for “soft” counter-play to stealth like AoE and auto attack? Well guess what, they are both situational too. What if AoE attacks are on cool down?[…] What if you don’t have a viable auto attack for doing that? In fact, the only weapons that have a chance at doing that are the greatswords

First you are maybe gonna learn something but even dagger have a range close to a greatsword so every melee weapon is viable.

Edit: just verified quickly on the wiki thief Dagger auto attack have the same range than guardian Greatsword one. I’m too lazy to watch the other but i’m pretty sure that you will find the same thing for everyone

Then i don’t know any viable pvp build that don’t have recurring aoe OR a viable auto attack. If you do please link it.

Bryzy.2719:

What if the AoE attacks are placed nowhere near you (as they can’t see you)?

I edited the previous quote to take away this sentence and discuss about it here.
That’s pretty much the l2p issue you have to play this matchup again and again until you are used to the timing of a stealth-user.

Bryzy.2719:

You have also chosen to ignore all the logical rebukes people have given on here.

Which one? i may have forgot one since i’m not a robot In that case you are welcome to remind me!

Bryzy.2719:

You have presented no facts. All you have done is given anecdotal evidence laced with hyberbole and a wholly biased view towards stealth without being willing to look at the bigger picture. […]. Every other post you make just makes you look more stupid. You have no argumentative legs left to stand on.

I send you back to my previous post where i talk about “being arogant and denigrate people”.

Wow
O.o
Someone wanting a positive change for the thief class… this is rare.
Honestly it looks and feels like a bug/lazy coding, nvm everything else. I would even accept having the channeling skill “break”/prevent stealth, since that would feel more polished and would make more sense. Right now it really does seem kind of half-as*ed. Besides it looking bad in game, you can also see how it’s half-as*ed based on the split of people preferring your fix vs preferring channeling breaking stealth, like they really made it in between off the start.
Though, I would much rather prefer what you’re suggesting, breaking/stopping the channeling when stealthing.
Yeah as much as I would like this fix myself….
Good luck getting through all the haters!

Seems like another l2p issue here, thieves. If you so badly wanna break the channel why don’t you just 1: shadow step behind the caster or 2: (if u got a zerg incomming) do like all the other thieves/mesmers run.

shinigamith.7120:

Bryzy.2719:

@shinigamith

Your “hard vs soft” counter-play argument is entirely subjective. Who are you to decide what constitutes hard or soft counter play? The only measure of determining that is how good the player is at handling that counter play. So that’s one of your arguments voided straight off.

A hard counter leave you with no satisfying option unlike a soft counter. That’s not subjective.

Bryzy.2719:

Remember how you wrote about how there are options for “soft” counter-play to stealth like AoE and auto attack? Well guess what, they are both situational too. What if AoE attacks are on cool down?[…] What if you don’t have a viable auto attack for doing that? In fact, the only weapons that have a chance at doing that are the greatswords

First you are maybe gonna learn something but even dagger have a range close to a greatsword so every melee weapon is viable.

Edit: just verified quickly on the wiki thief Dagger auto attack have the same range than guardian Greatsword one. I’m too lazy to watch the other but i’m pretty sure that you will find the same thing for everyone

Then i don’t know any viable pvp build that don’t have recurring aoe OR a viable auto attack. If you do please link it.

Bryzy.2719:

What if the AoE attacks are placed nowhere near you (as they can’t see you)?

I edited the previous quote to take away this sentence and discuss about it here.
That’s pretty much the l2p issue you have to play this matchup again and again until you are used to the timing of a stealth-user.

Bryzy.2719:

You have also chosen to ignore all the logical rebukes people have given on here.

Which one? i may have forgot one since i’m not a robot In that case you are welcome to remind me!

Bryzy.2719:

You have presented no facts. All you have done is given anecdotal evidence laced with hyberbole and a wholly biased view towards stealth without being willing to look at the bigger picture. […]. Every other post you make just makes you look more stupid. You have no argumentative legs left to stand on.

I send you back to my previous post where i talk about “being arogant and denigrate people”.

The “satisfying option” is the subjective part. Just because you personally can’t handle that counter-play doesn’t mean many other players can’t. I’ve played many skilled thieves who’ve laid my use of rapid fire to waste. Timing their stealth after I’ve casted it for example. There you are – another way to counter the counter-play.

I can see it’s pointless trying to argue with you because you’re clutching at straws with trivial matters such as the distance of a cleave. Let’s bring things back into perspective, shall we? I have presented you with viable ways of countering channeled skills and gameplay, yet you seem to be choosing to reject them. That’s the true sign of ignorance. You call me denigrating and ignorant, yet all I have done is point out the flaws in your arguments and telling you why you are unreasonable and that the fact of the matter is, we will not see the situation with channeled skills following stealthed players change.

In case you are still unclear, let me summarise for you why it won’t change:

1. Stealth is the most powerful interpersonal ability in the game
2. Every aspect of every gameplay style needs to have counter-play to ensure balance
3. You are trying to remove a large aspect of stealth counter-play because you feel that it makes your gameplay experience too difficult, yet many other thieves/stealth users seem to be able to deal with it just fine – if they couldn’t, we’d see a lot more QQ about the subject, yet yours is the only thread I’ve seen on the topic
4. The huge majority of people agree with my standpoint in this thread
5. Most of the arguments you are presenting are flawed to some degree, yet you’re not helping your own cause by being ignorant towards people who are showing you why you’re wrong.

shinigamith.7120:

coglin.1867:

So let me get this straight. In an action combat game, in which dodging is designs as the main form of damage mitigation. You exploit stealth to circumvent that mechanic. Then cry when other players use channeling a skill, to circumvent a mechanic that you are using to circumvent one of the most integral and main universal game mechanic. Maybe it is just me, but this complain seems to me. to fall deep on the side of unreasonable hypocrisy (to put it politely) to me.

The reasoning is nice but you’re wrong at it’s start:

Dodging is not designed as the main form of damage mitigation. Actually it’s more designed to avoid a threat that can be either damage or crowd control. If you want a damage mitigation dedicated system you have toughness and the protection boon wich are the main form of damage mitigation since they are 100% dedicated to it.

That said when i use stealth i want to buy time and to take the hand and decide when the fight is gonna continue. Note that I still can take damages and crowd control during the stealth so im not trying to circumvent the dodge

Do you have any evidence to support that? there are dev post that state otherwise.

i say let’em have their channeled skills hitting stealth. i just don’t want them to say stealth is OP.

oddly enough, thieves also have to fight other thieves, and yet we don’t have a problem with our enemy stealthing in and out all the time.

@Wyrden.4713
Either you don’t know English or you can’t read. Not going to waste time with you.

Muchacho.2390:

Yes, but maybe it is intended and Anet doesnt want to change it. So why should they fix something that works exectly like they want it to work.

And if it isnt working as intended, why didnt they fix it already. And I am certain it is not the first time someone reported this, so they should know. Maybe they dont know how to fix it (unlikely) or it is simply to much hassle to fix it so they ignore it (also unlikely). It also could be a low priotity thing (more likely if unintended). Well in this case lets wait and see. At somepoint it will be fixed.

I think the most likely case is that it works fine enough for them not to warrent a change. And i also dont think it is as much of a deal, since it is rather easy to adapt to it as player with stealth.

Ofc they know about it but
1) they don’t wanna fix it
2) they can fix it but it takes too much work just for to fix it and they chose not to.

Just look at the permanent root bug. It is there since beta. The only way to get out of it is with a teleport or a emote like /dance or /sleep, they obviously know about it and it is a game braking bug that can dictate the result of a battle but did they fix it after 2 years? No do you believe that they chose not to? Or they don’t know how to? If they
could or knew how this big would have been eradicate log ago!

Same applies to this channeled though stealth bug and many others.

Eventually they will get fixed but I won’t be here to see it since my guild is moving on to a different game just like my previous 3 guilds did, only this time I’ll go with them.

ok some ppl might not understand me maibe… my problem is when I use stealth but lets say ele with scepter used air nb 1 on me every 1 will see were the hell I am when I am in stealth beacose the channel skill fallows me around I can dodge during stealth but bigger problem is that im really revealed all the time channel skill is cast on me same with rapid fire or eaven whit mesmer gs nb 1. I dont mind being hit by melee attack or some piercing projactles what randomly hit me in stealth but being targeted in stealth shood be gone now when ppl have stealth counter skills what give revealed

ps im not thief actualy mesmer and sry for my bad english

The fact that channelled skills track stealthed enemies doesn’t seem to be beyond its original purpose. Stealth makes it impossible to target the user while they are stealthed, however given that a channelled skill targets them before they are stealthed, the mechanics thus state that stealth does not “break” the tracking effect of the channelled skill.

To restate in another manner, there are two mechanics against each other:
1. Channelled Skill: These track the target[s] using beams of sorts with multiple hits over time.
2. Stealth: These prevent people from targeting the user.

Given these two mechanics, neither truly overlaps with another. Channelled skill tracks a target, the target stealths and makes it impossible for the channeler to target them. However, the channeled skill was used before the stealth, and the stealth doesn’t act as a “skill break” like it might as a stun break. The mechanics do not overlap, therefore there is no contradiction.

OP even if this is a bug, you would be insane to request it’s removal. It’s removal will probably warrant every class having access to multiple forms of revealed and I’m sure most experienced players don’t want that. Besides non stealthing classes are already punished heavily for allowing their opponents to enter stealth (which isn’t something you have much control over anyways) with thieves healing and removing conditions and mesmers gaining countless boons on top of the large amount of benefits stealthing already provides.

If an opponent times their channel with you entering stealth, that is a skill in itself imo.

shinigamith.7120:

Wyrden.4713:

i think its fine as it is tbh, stealth is probably the best defensive system in this game besides invulnerabilitys, but these r rly rly short duration with a rly long cd so ignore em

and the counterplay with channeled skills is fine, actually its not rly that much of a counterplay, for example gs1mesmer, or scepter air 1 on ele does dmg in stealth if casted before stealth, but it doesnt show the one using it where the thief is unless u got fire sigil, its invicible for the user, only the one in stealth knows that he is getting hit

ofc there are skills like unload as well, or the pistol phantasm, exactly these 2 r real neat counterplays to stealth, it shows exactly where the enemy is and where he is going

ops, forgot ranger lbow2 and war rifle (the channeled skill wich is similar to rangers rapid fire), these work as well

Let’s make it clear:

What’s the point of stealth?:

-Nobody can see you and we can only guess where you are
-You can’t be targeted

When you cast a targeting channeled spell before the stealth user go into stealth what happen?:

-Nobody can see you but everyone know exactly where you are
-You can’t be targeted but are still targeted by the hability

Why is it wrong?:

-It simply break stealth.

About counterplay: you make a counterplay when there is some mindgame. Here it’s not question of mindgame, AI allways follow you when you are in stealth simply because you are targeted by it that’s just a broken mechanic.

Stealth also has the least counterplay options… You cannot rip stealth like a boon, you lose target, stealth can heal and remove conditions every 4 seconds, stealth provides thieves with extremely strong attacks (backstab / unload bleed stacks), stealth can be spammed. Channeled abilities have a longer cooldown than your stealth spam, Rapid Fire is getting a channeled duration reduction so this will be a burst skill and less following while stealthed. If you want channeled skills to stop hitting you, stealth and shadowstep away.

Also, AI does not follow you in stealth. Pets lose target until you are revealed or unstealth. This is same for clones. Only ai with channeled attacks continue to hit for duration of the cast. That is all.

shinigamith.7120:

coglin.1867:

So let me get this straight. In an action combat game, in which dodging is designs as the main form of damage mitigation. You exploit stealth to circumvent that mechanic. Then cry when other players use channeling a skill, to circumvent a mechanic that you are using to circumvent one of the most integral and main universal game mechanic. Maybe it is just me, but this complain seems to me. to fall deep on the side of unreasonable hypocrisy (to put it politely) to me.

The reasoning is nice but you’re wrong at it’s start:

Dodging is not designed as the main form of damage mitigation. Actually it’s more designed to avoid a threat that can be either damage or crowd control. If you want a damage mitigation dedicated system you have toughness and the protection boon wich are the main form of damage mitigation since they are 100% dedicated to it.

That said when i use stealth i want to buy time and to take the hand and decide when the fight is gonna continue. Note that I still can take damages and crowd control during the stealth so im not trying to circumvent the dodge mechanic.

Bryzy.2719:

shinigamith.7120:

Dodging do not fix the fact that the guy know where you are and that you can be nuked by one of his allies.

I repeat, this is COUNTER-PLAY. Christ, talk about a circular argument.

I send you back to my counter-play/hard-counter differences explanation.

Bryzy.2719:

So they know where you are? Welcome to what every other profession without stealth has to deal with 24/7!

Yes and i’m happy that you go in my way since every other profession without stealth do have (not all of what i’m gonna mention but some of it) aegis/protection/higher toughness/higher hp/better sustain/invulnerability/better-more crowd control/stability/better condition clearing/block/better-more stun break and i think i forgot some.

really if i’m with a bunker ele right in the middle of the fight i absolutely don’t care if the ennemy see me or not that’s 100% not my problem and pretty much every other profession can say the same (maybe not ranger ok)

Bryzy.2719:

Furthermore, skills that are being channeled against you can be nullified by simply moving beyond the angle of view of the attacking character, which cancels their channeling.

Yes but you can’t allways move beyond this point it depend on a lot of factor (is the caster far from you? do the terrain allow you to do this? do you have enough time to do this or is it better to choose another option? how many cooldowns do you have actually? are you even aware of where is the caster when you take your first damages?).

Actually on one hand you have someone that press one button and do damages and don’t have to bother about anything and on the other hand you have someone that have to mind about it

Bryzy.2719:

Your arguments have no basis other than “Urgh I’m sick of people being able to kill me! QQ why does the most powerful and abusable ability in the game have to have counter-play?! QQ”.

In almost every post you make you take 50% of your time being arogant and denigrate people. I’m sorry but actually you are the one looking more like a 12yo kid.
I spend my time proving my point of view with facts while you where searching what profession i was maining

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Bryzy.2719:

Also, don’t dismiss my dodging assertion with a “just no”.

Just. No.

Terrahero.9358:

Its been around since the start, those who want to see stealth buffed claim its a bug and should be fixed. Those who dont want to see stealth buffed claim its a feature.

This is not about what makes sense or what is logical. Afterall this is a videogame, people conjure magical stuff. Planting a banner into the ground counts as a blastfinisher, but a steel-packed keg of explosive powder does not. People become tornado’s from drinking a potion, and these tornado’s are vulnerable to physical damage.
Dont look for logical sense, its not an excuse because most of the game doesnt make sense.

So we end up with one way to view such mechanics, and thats balance. Currently Stealth is already incredibly powerful, and absolutely in no need of getting buffed. arenanet seems to agree with this stance as they are infact introducing more counter-mechanics against stealth. So removing existing ones makes no sense then.

I don’t want stealth to be buffed i consider it’s a fix. On the other hand i have no problem with the new revealing skills that are added to the other professions since i consider it as a real counter-play.

LOL… Dodging is the damage mitigation. Toughness is not. When stealth grants thieves the ability to backstab players with over 3k armor for 10k damage, Dodge is the best form of mitigation, sorry.

To end with this (sorry i can’t answer big slab like these everyday)

-I consider being followed by someone is a bug that need a fix
-I have no problem with the new spells that are added to counter stealth

So if you want to counter stealth (which is funny since thieves that fight thieves do not have problem to achieve this => l2p issue) simply use these new skills or the old #1+AoE spam wich actually works pretty well

Otaur.9268:

LOL… Dodging is the damage mitigation. Toughness is not. When stealth grants thieves the ability to backstab players with over 3k armor for 10k damage, Dodge is the best form of mitigation, sorry.

If you forget that with 2k1 toughness i don’t even take 10K damages on a backstab and that landing a 6k on a war/guardian is very good.

Bryzy.2719:

I can see it’s pointless trying to argue with you because you’re clutching at straws with trivial matters such as the distance of a cleave.

You are the one that brought the distances of a cleave here with your “only greatsword can do this”;

Do i have to add hypocrisis to the list of the flaw you are showing? You are trying to use one of your mistakes to discretid one of my answer thats hillarious.

Bryzy.2719:

5. Most of the arguments you are presenting are flawed to some degree, yet you’re not helping your own cause by being ignorant towards people who are showing you why you’re wrong.

I asked you to remind me what i have ignored since i’m not a robot. And you didn’t. you’re not helping your own cause by being ignorant towards people who are showing you why you’re wrong.

Bryzy.2719:

4. The huge majority of people agree with my standpoint in this thread

I don’t care of the majority.

Bryzy.2719:

3. You are trying to remove a large aspect of stealth counter-play because you feel that it makes your gameplay experience too difficult, yet many other thieves/stealth users seem to be able to deal with it just fine – if they couldn’t, we’d see a lot more QQ about the subject, yet yours is the only thread I’ve seen on the topic

I’m trying to remove a bug. And with all the thief hate in these forum why the thieves would come here and QQ. To face haters like you that just want to prove they are right but have nothing to argue?

Bryzy.2719:

2. Every aspect of every gameplay style needs to have counter-play to ensure balance

Yes and stealth allready have counter-plays no need to add a bug like this

coglin.1867:

shinigamith.7120:

coglin.1867:

So let me get this straight. In an action combat game, in which dodging is designs as the main form of damage mitigation. You exploit stealth to circumvent that mechanic. Then cry when other players use channeling a skill, to circumvent a mechanic that you are using to circumvent one of the most integral and main universal game mechanic. Maybe it is just me, but this complain seems to me. to fall deep on the side of unreasonable hypocrisy (to put it politely) to me.

The reasoning is nice but you’re wrong at it’s start:

Dodging is not designed as the main form of damage mitigation. Actually it’s more designed to avoid a threat that can be either damage or crowd control. If you want a damage mitigation dedicated system you have toughness and the protection boon wich are the main form of damage mitigation since they are 100% dedicated to it.

That said when i use stealth i want to buy time and to take the hand and decide when the fight is gonna continue. Note that I still can take damages and crowd control during the stealth so im not trying to circumvent the dodge

Do you have any evidence to support that? there are dev post that state otherwise.

As a thief to mitigate damage i have my active defense i.e my skillbar and the initiative system. Dodge is a way to negate crowd control since i have only 1 stun breaker that is a teleportation too and a condition removal too (and so i don’t allways use it to stun break).

What is dodging for the other profession is not important here since we are not talking about the other one

Otaur.9268:

LOL… Dodging is the damage mitigation. Toughness is not. When stealth grants thieves the ability to backstab players with over 3k armor for 10k damage, Dodge is the best form of mitigation, sorry.

My 3k armor warrior never received 10k backstabs. He did receive plenty of 10k damage eviscerates though. Which would translate to 15k damage on a 2k armor user.

shinigamith.7120:

I don’t want stealth to be buffed.

But that is exactly whats going to happen. So what is your real problem here? You dont want stealth buffed, but then suggest exactly that. Keep in mind, your idea that this is a bug and not a deliberate feature is your opinion.

You have not in anyway brought up a reasonable argument that would suggest it is infact a bug. Your opinion, or how you feel about it, are not reasonable arguments.

shinigamith.7120:

Pretty much everything you said.

Mate, you need to take a step back, read the entire thread again and try to objectively look at things. It’s utterly ridiculous how hypocritcal you’re being in your argueing. When someone provides you with an arguement in favor of stealth tracking (i.e. it’s one of the very few counters to stealth) you shoot it down saying it’s overpowered, it’s a faulty mechanic, etc. At the same time, you defend stealth itself by saying not being able to deal with stealth outside of said trackig is a L2P issue. You do this for every arguement made. You can’t have it both ways, man.

I’m not trying to insult you, but it’s very, very obvious that you lack experience with non-stealth classes. If you’d play them and then look back at what you said in this thread, you’d realize the things you’re saying are adverse to eachother.

Terrahero.9358:

shinigamith.7120:

I don’t want stealth to be buffed.

But that is exactly whats going to happen. So what is your real problem here? You dont want stealth buffed, but then suggest exactly that. Keep in mind, your idea that this is a bug and not a deliberate feature is your opinion.

You have not in anyway brought up a reasonable argument that would suggest it is infact a bug. Your opinion, or how you feel about it, are not reasonable arguments.

You’re right about the fact that i can’t prove that it’s a bug and in fact anet only know it.

But hey i don’t expect them to answer here so what am i doing is promoting my idea. If it’s right that it’s a bug and it happen that they fix it, that’s effectively gonna be a slight up for stealth but i don’t expect they make this fix without consideration in wich case it’s not gonna be a up anymore.

BolshoiBooze.3406:

shinigamith.7120:

Pretty much everything you said.

Mate, you need to take a step back, read the entire thread again and try to objectively look at things. It’s utterly ridiculous how hypocritcal you’re being in your argueing. When someone provides you with an arguement in favor of stealth tracking (i.e. it’s one of the very few counters to stealth) you shoot it down saying it’s overpowered, it’s a faulty mechanic, etc. At the same time, you defend stealth itself by saying not being able to deal with stealth outside of said trackig is a L2P issue. You do this for every arguement made. You can’t have it both ways, man.

I’m not trying to insult you, but it’s very, very obvious that you lack experience with non-stealth classes. If you’d play them and then look back at what you said in this thread, you’d realize the things you’re saying are adverse to eachother.

If a cat is black, wether you like it or not i’m gonna say the cat is black. If it’s a l2p issue, wether you like it or not i’m gonna call it a l2p issue.

The discussion was made several times, here a dev post :

Tyler Chapman.1832:

If you queue up attacks prior to the player stealthing, they will still land. Ranged attacks that is.

Hope this clears it up!

Skills like rapid fire are ment to track the target even after stealth.

shinigamith.7120:

If a cat is black, wether you like it or not i’m gonna say the cat is black. If it’s a l2p issue, wether you like it or not i’m gonna call it a l2p issue.

Sure, but be consistent with your calls. What you’re doing now is calling the black cat black, but you’re calling the black dog white because it suits your interests better.