Guild Wars 2

Was tossing this around the other day with some people.

An easy way to balance Celestial gearsets in PvE an PvP is to remove condition damage from the set.

That still makes it the highest stat distribution gear set, but it removes the ability to go over the top with condition damage.

I think nerfing might is a mistake, as that’s an active process. If anything active processes like stacking might should be encouraged.

Anyways, I know there will be dissenters, so go ahead and dissent, but for the peeps who think this is a strong idea, please let me know.

So that the gear set becomes terrible for hybrid builds? Also, from the developers perspective celestial isn’t just used for might stacking builds, it is also used for normal balanced builds. Removing condition damage pretty much just says we don’t want it for hybrids.

I think a better method is just to reduce the stat bonuses that you get from it. Perhaps reducing it down by 40 each stat would be fair.

And by the way the PvE meta is full zerker, not celestial and it would be a mistake to do that for WvW because of how inflated your stats can get through guard stacks, borderland buffs, ascended gear, etc. Celestial isn’t overpowered in a WvW/PvE context.

I personally gear my ele in WvW for half celestial (armor and weapon) and all my trinkets are a mix of cavalier and berserker. Full celestial leaves your armor and power value a little bit low IMO. Where as in structured PvP having 2,300-2400, armor with 16K HP is decent along with 180-190% crit damage while being about 400 power short of a zerker amulet, however condition damage can make some of that up. The healing power obviously makes you have more sustain.

This is not the way to fix it. The whole point behind getting the set is for the hybrid builds. Not even convinced Celestial is the real problem. The only classes that are abusing it are the ones that can stack might. Perhaps just changing the bonus stats from might in PvP would resolve the issues.

Might isn’t the problem. Having 15+ stacks of might requires a 15 seconds + ramp up for most classes. People who spec full power can just as easily and effectively "abuse" might stacking. Plus there are celestial engis out there, that don’t necessarily reach that amount of might in a fight. For example a soldier hambow warrior can easily have respectable damage while being very tanky. There is also boon removal/conversion.

Celestial amulet gets you very close to the tankiness of a soldier’s amulet, while allowing you to only be a notch below the DPS of a Berserker and Assassin’s amulet.

Why? The gear is bad enough in most situations as is. It provides a total-stat-advantage in return for being inferior at any specific task. It’s not really thaaaat strong, given that context.

The problem is that Might stacking should be a whole team job. Single person could should NOT be able to stack it as high as above 10+ and for ridiculous long period of time (I’m looking at you Might Runes)

Please don’t touch this stat set. Because it is the best option for some niche builds. It works great with unusual builds and nerfing this set would destroy whats left from build diversity.

The problem with the classes using celestial is not the base stats but the fact that some of them can stack so much might.

They can solve the problem easily by making might stack slightly less per ability (for some specs) in Spvp & WvW.

Siva Mira.3546:

The problem is that Might stacking should be a whole team job. Single person could should NOT be able to stack it as high as above 10+ and for ridiculous long period of time (I’m looking at you Might Runes)

Not so much the might runes, though they do help.

Its that some specs have a ton of ways to stack might & might runes allow it to last so long they can stack up additional might on top of it.

If they would simply take a look at some of those specs & adjust how much might they stack per ability in Spvp & WvW then things would balance out.

There is no problem with celestial gear as it is. It needs no change. The only issues are with a very small and specific subset of builds and not the gear stats.

If the builds weren’t OP before celestial buff, and are after it, then the issue isn’t with the builds. You’re just killing those builds being used with anything else. That’s a mistake.

Most people here are saying there isn’t a problem with celestial, but if you ask anybody what’s OP in game they say “celestial engineers, eles.” So what gives here?

I have an idea, how about we just nerf might? from 35 points to 25 points??

Mbelch.9028:

If the builds weren’t OP before celestial buff, and are after it, then the issue isn’t with the builds. You’re just killing those builds being used with anything else. That’s a mistake.

Most people here are saying there isn’t a problem with celestial, but if you ask anybody what’s OP in game they say “celestial engineers, eles.” So what gives here?

The builds before celestial are not the same builds thay were used before it came into play. I feel some people not being aware of that fact, is where the disconnect in views of the issue come from.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Mbelch.9028:

If the builds weren’t OP before celestial buff, and are after it, then the issue isn’t with the builds. You’re just killing those builds being used with anything else. That’s a mistake.

Most people here are saying there isn’t a problem with celestial, but if you ask anybody what’s OP in game they say “celestial engineers, eles.” So what gives here?

The builds before celestial are not the same builds thay were used before it came into play. I feel some people not being aware of that fact, is where the disconnect in views of the issue come from.

I can’t speak for engineer, but for elementalist, you’re wrong. There was one new build post patch. That build still isn’t in heavy rotation.

It’s the same build sets.

And might doesn’t need a nerf, if anything might shouldn’t bump condi dmg either. That one makes very little sense to me.

Might is the MAIN thing making those cele specs stand out from attempt of other classes….How can you not go for that first? Every turn around might seems like a personal fear that is not helpful,just go straight.

Sagat.3285:

Might is the MAIN thing making those cele specs stand out from attempt of other classes….How can you not go for that first? Every turn around might seems like a personal fear that is not helpful,just go straight.

I can’t make sense of what you’re saying in the latter half of your statement, but I can say I don’t feel like might is the main issue.

Might makes celestial overpowered, yes. But it didn’t before the patch. So in my opinion, if it was working before, kill off what makes it out of balance now.

So no, nerfing might and might stacking is silly.

Mbelch.9028:

Sagat.3285:

Might is the MAIN thing making those cele specs stand out from attempt of other classes….How can you not go for that first? Every turn around might seems like a personal fear that is not helpful,just go straight.

I can’t make sense of what you’re saying in the latter half of your statement, but I can say I don’t feel like might is the main issue.

Might makes celestial overpowered, yes. But it didn’t before the patch. So in my opinion, if it was working before, kill off what makes it out of balance now.

So no, nerfing might and might stacking is silly.

But is that how it played out? Celestial has been in for quite some time. It just had its stats improved. But the moment the sigil and rune changes hit, that’s when we started seeing people actually use it. First it was the D/D Ele’s which showed up in PvP almost overnight. Then it lead to Engis. And now expanded to Warriors.

I’m pretty sure that’s a more accurate timeline, no?

might doesn’t make celestial any more "overpowered" than it would for a power build.

Celestial Amulet in sPvP is only around 200 toughness and 200 vitality shy of the soldier’s amulet. However, celestial makes that up almost entirely with the 400+ Healing power.

It is around 400 power shy and 200 precision shy of a zerker amulet. However the celestial amulet does have an addition 450 condition damage approximately. Which doesn’t entirely make up for even the power alone, but still adds a good portion of damage.

It seems like the Celestial Amulet is good for classes that can have both a significant source of direct and condition damage all in one build, and whom can make use of all of the stats very well. Classes like Ele, Engi and Warrior all come to mind. D/D has good power scaling while having a significant source of burn + some bleed. Axebow is much the same thing as well as Rifle Engineer with burning traits and kits. It isn’t so much a product of being able to stack might really high. The common denominator seems to be that having a weapon that does well with power along with burning (a condition that has the best condition scaling) seems to take advantage of celestial the most effectively, alongside another condition that can help augment it as well. It also seems good for builds that fight on point and are inherently decent at it. Celestial Amulet gives you kitten near the sustainability of a Soldier’s Amulet to do that, except with much better DPS. (30% crit damage increase, +430 precision, +430 condition damage in exchange for 400 power less).

It wouldn’t be so great for classes such as thieves for example IMO because Pistol doesn’t scale well with direct damage, healing power isn’t that great for them.

It is niche I will admit, however, the stats it gives outweighs any other amulet by far.

The meta simply changes at times, what is wrong with the might stacking? Don’t Fresh air or tempest Ele’s not spike for more damage when they are using 25 stacks of might? The typical D/D build has hardly changed ( if at all) and went from complete garbage to viable after some small buffs . Had you change the amulet or runes, elementalists would likely immediately go to trash tier again. It is a delicate matter, personally I think the passive might building possible through runes/sigils could be tweaked.

I think the celestial complaints are a bill. People have trouble with somebody and immediately go ‘oh that Engineer/Ele must be in celestial!’, but honestly they can’t really know.

Only melee spec with poor boon removal struggle against it. Celestial is incomplete you need mixes of weapons,traits,utilities to make use of all stats. The best option is to balance the mixes not the amulet itself.

Seriously not sure why people want Might stacking nerf.

Might stacking exist on other Non-celestial builds too and its not OP.

You nerf might stack, celestial will still be top cuz every other build will get hit just as much as celestial build will.

on top of that, a lot of celestial build can not stack a tons of might, in fact the most might stack able build is not even celestial.

I think the design of Might boon is to help you do more damage but what about now?

Cele gives you 438 power and condition but 20+ Might give you 700+ Power and Condition.

As I said, Might should help you do more damage but as it is now it can multiply your damage 2 or 3 time greater.

Siva Mira.3546:

I think the design of Might boon is to help you do more damage but what about now?

Cele gives you 438 power and condition but 20+ Might give you 700+ Power and Condition.

As I said, Might should help you do more damage but as it is now it can multiply your damage 2 or 3 time greater.

Not quite. You forget that everyone has 916 Power baseline, so once you factor in the celestial amulet, even 25 stacks of Might are only a 64.6% Power increase without accounting for runes, sigils, or traits (which all drop the percentage).

However, the Might also get multiplied by the crits and stronger multiplier provided by Celestial and conditions also get boosted, so doubling your damage is well within the realm of possibility.

celestial stat / pvp amulet is fine.
leave it alone.

might giving 35 power / condition damage is fine as well.
leave it alone.

the complaints comes from people who cry because they cannot / refuse to remove the might boon.

this is really a rocks scissors papers issue.

proposed remedy:
- improve generic boon removal options
- improve sustain of boon removal professions (necro, mesmer, thief, guardian)
- improve boon removal capabilities of boon removal professions

warriors can be good at stacking might, because warriors
- do not enter stealth on their own
- do not create clones on their own
- do not have animal companions
- do not summon undead minions
- do not enter death shroud
- etc

i.e. might stacking is one of the profession mechanics of warriors.

as for ele, i dun play an ele so i will not comment on that.

Mbelch.9028:

Was tossing this around the other day with some people.

An easy way to balance Celestial gearsets in PvE an PvP is to remove condition damage from the set.

.

Because celestial is so strong that its clearly PvE meta (there are only 3 sets in PvE: berserker, assassin and soldier).

I have a better idea.
Remove it from PvP.
Revert the pre ferocity changes for PvE and WWW (i.e. a direct conversion of stats rather than the “lore” version we had to make stats equal).

And stop thinking changes to pvp makes sense for anything else but PvP.
Ty

The changes to celestial were a mistake…there were thousands posts about them, ignored as Always…..

the joke is celestial amy supposed to offer less for each stat but it doesn’t

compare it to zerker, celestial gives almost as much ferocity as zerker and more vitality for example… given vitality is not exactly zerker amulet strengh but it should give more ferocity than zerker

also it works waaaayyyy too good with hybrids given them basically double dmg and double survival compared to classes that can focus only on direct dmg or condis…

add might stacking, no wonder everyone and their mother runs cele engis/wars/eles

either hybrids need to be nerfed (which won’t happen) or celestial amy + might stacking needs to be nerfed in pvp

Nerf might, its the way to go.

Cynz.9437:

the joke is celestial amy supposed to offer less for each stat but it doesn’t

The opposite.
Celestial is supposed to offer more than average stats because balanced stats should be easier to balance while the extremes are less easy to balance.
Issue is the game is not balanced at all.

compare it to zerker, celestial gives almost as much ferocity as zerker and more vitality for example…

Less power+less precision = way less damage.
Don t do the same mistake people did when anet released ferocity patch.
Celestial preferocity was a midground between zerker and soldier despite having more crit damage than berserker.
Now is just a tanky set more near to soldier and in some cases has evenless dps than soldier itself.

All for the sake of “lore” since it had a primary stat and was crit damage while other stats were lower.
In their first interview they just “forget” that lore is a bad balancing reason and cut about 20% crit damage from it (until thousands posts on the forum got readed by a dev).

Then they realized shortly before the patch, but instead of a logic solution (see a conversion that would get the same ferocity nerf as berserker and not 3 times more) they just pushed all stats without caring of change of purpose (big issue for WWW and PVE celestial owners).

How is celestial gear even an issue for pve? It far from the best stat to be running.

Simon.3794:

Seriously not sure why people want Might stacking nerf.

Might stacking exist on other Non-celestial builds too and its not OP.

You nerf might stack, celestial will still be top cuz every other build will get hit just as much as celestial build will.

on top of that, a lot of celestial build can not stack a tons of might, in fact the most might stack able build is not even celestial.

Because celestial gear has been around for a while. No one complained about it until the boon stacking trend came around with the changes to sigil and runes.

Mbelch.9028:

Sagat.3285:

Might is the MAIN thing making those cele specs stand out from attempt of other classes….How can you not go for that first? Every turn around might seems like a personal fear that is not helpful,just go straight.

I can’t make sense of what you’re saying in the latter half of your statement, but I can say I don’t feel like might is the main issue.

Might makes celestial overpowered, yes. But it didn’t before the patch. So in my opinion, if it was working before, kill off what makes it out of balance now.

So no, nerfing might and might stacking is silly.

How does it make it OP now if it wasn’t before the patch? You keep implying that some how it has become a problem since 9/9. Would you care to explain how?

Celestial gear is 2/3 of the damage you get from zerker armor. Full celestial lose 618 power, 276 precision and ferocity, and gain 469 in vitality, armor, condition damage and armor.

The additonal condition damage is not going increase the damage from your armor set by 50%. The extra health can be nice, the extra healing is helpful, but 1/3 of total damage is a major loss. In PvE end content, zerker is superior armor to celestial.

In PvP and WvW, the trade looks different. Full zerker dies to fast, and full defensive do not bring enough to the table . Celestial is the middle ground, and is why some people picks it.

Not really. Players would be far better off getting a mix of other sets then ever considering celestial gear in WvW. The only exception to this is what was brought up earlier with the hybrid weapons and attacks.

It’s only really useful if you can make use of the healing power and/or condi damage as well as the power. This is why we only see it on Eles, Engis, and Warriors.

Fair point actually, even if teamed versus two might stackers in Celestial, why not bring a friend who is good at removing boons?

Carighan.6758:

Fair point actually, even if teamed versus two might stackers in Celestial, why not bring a friend who is good at removing boons?

because all boon strips are on relative long cd while might stacking spells not, besides stripping boons doesn’t necessary favors might over other boons

Cynz.9437:

Carighan.6758:

Fair point actually, even if teamed versus two might stackers in Celestial, why not bring a friend who is good at removing boons?

because all boon strips are on relative long cd while might stacking spells not, besides stripping boons doesn’t necessary favors might over other boons

To expand on this, the only boon removal skill in the necro’s toolkit that reliably strips Might is Corrupt Boon. I don’t know about Mesmers or thieves, but Guardians only have one boon strip option (granted, it’s a good one).

Just put might in top three of boon stripping for boon removal on certain skill…

Cynz.9437:

Carighan.6758:

Fair point actually, even if teamed versus two might stackers in Celestial, why not bring a friend who is good at removing boons?

because all boon strips are on relative long cd while might stacking spells not, besides stripping boons doesn’t necessary favors might over other boons

mesmer’s sword auto attack chain removes a boon on the 3rd strike yes?

perhaps we need more of those?

what if necro axe auto attack chain corrupts a boon on the 3rd strike?

I like celestial the way it is. Very nice for those who like making use of all their skills. There should be a reward for using a balanced approach. Lopsided builds (too much DPS or too much Armour) should end up loosing so a well played balanced build.

The power in lopsided builds is in the surprise of the attacks you do. Hit hard and hide your weaknesses or exploit your opponents lack of understanding.

Archon.6480:

I like celestial the way it is. Very nice for those who like making use of all their skills. There should be a reward for using a balanced approach. Lopsided builds (too much DPS to too much Armour) should end up loosing so a well played balanced build.

“i run celestial – i should always win”
so let’s delete every other build and let only hybrids play? great idea… not really

Cynz.9437:

Archon.6480:

I like celestial the way it is. Very nice for those who like making use of all their skills. There should be a reward for using a balanced approach. Lopsided builds (too much DPS to too much Armour) should end up loosing so a well played balanced build.

“i run celestial – i should always win”
so let’s delete every other build and let only hybrids play? great idea… not really

but cynz, i run celestial and i dun always win. O_O

Maybe it’s just that might is too easily obtained relative to how much power it gives?

We can nerf a few things:
Celestial spread
Might’s benefit
Might’s application rate/duration

Because Celestial doesn’t seem to be a problem outside of the builds that can readily get a gajillion Might stacks. Celestial is really strong if you have a huge swathe of boons, it’s true, but that means we can tackle it on more than one front.

I’m happy that there’s respectful conversation happening in the thread. Here’s some replies to what I’ve heard and feel needs responding to:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

celestial stat / pvp amulet is fine.
leave it alone.

might giving 35 power / condition damage is fine as well.
leave it alone.

the complaints comes from people who cry because they cannot / refuse to remove the might boon.

this is really a rocks scissors papers issue.

proposed remedy:
- improve generic boon removal options
- improve sustain of boon removal professions (necro, mesmer, thief, guardian)
- improve boon removal capabilities of boon removal professions

warriors can be good at stacking might, because warriors
- do not enter stealth on their own
- do not create clones on their own
- do not have animal companions
- do not summon undead minions
- do not enter death shroud
- etc

i.e. might stacking is one of the profession mechanics of warriors.

as for ele, i dun play an ele so i will not comment on that.

I very much agree with you. Why I posted this thread is what I think would be preferable, or at least to discuss what would be preferable if ANet does nerf celestial. Otherwise I do agree.

dancingmonkey.4902:

How does it make it OP now if it wasn’t before the patch? You keep implying that some how it has become a problem since 9/9. Would you care to explain how?

Talking about the April patch. Nothing even happened in 9/9 other than for rangers……..

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Cynz.9437:

Archon.6480:

I like celestial the way it is. Very nice for those who like making use of all their skills. There should be a reward for using a balanced approach. Lopsided builds (too much DPS to too much Armour) should end up loosing so a well played balanced build.

“i run celestial – i should always win”
so let’s delete every other build and let only hybrids play? great idea… not really

but cynz, i run celestial and i dun always win. O_O

i am just pointing how that guy sounds… apprently according to his logic celestial build should always win over other builds….

Carighan.6758:

Fair point actually, even if teamed versus two might stackers in Celestial, why not bring a friend who is good at removing boons?

I think for 2 reasons:

1. There isn’t enough boon removal to (partially) surpress might (let alone a set of boons) .

2. Something which I like to call the point of effort. It’s how much more effort has to do if a player wants to activate an abilty while the opponent wants to negate it. With non-damaging conditions lies the the point of effort mostly on the apllication side with a few exceptions regarding non longbow cleansing ire, putrid mark, deathly swarm and maybe some more I can’t remember. Whith boons and boon removal on the other hand the point of effort lies the point of effort much closer to boon removal. Getting boons requires next to no effort, while removing a boon requires to land a skill.

Celestial only gets strong with Might stacking, but then again, so does every other build. Might is the elephant in the room here.

Cynz.9437:

“i run celestial – i should always win”

Not what he/she said. And not the point.

If you run a balanced approach and a balanced set of gear, you will always be weaker at any specific thing. You are, that works out in GW2.

But at the same time, you’re also never quite out of your element. Again, that works out in GW2.

The reason Celestial gear can be so powerful is that a mix of the weird mode of PvP many people play forcing lengthy fights and defensive approaches mixed with focused offence (i.e.: inherently discourages overly specialized approaches in many situations) and the effect boon spam has on PvP in general means some specs have no downside to using Celestial.

Operative part: some specs.

Nerfing Celestial instead of the specific offender’s ability to utilize it makes no sense. The gear was terrible before they buffed at, and even buffed it was seen as completely useless after the Ferocity change. Ask LordByron. :P
And it kinda still is. It’s not bad, but it is quite questionable whether it’s useful in the first place. Again, some specs in one game mode in a subset of situations within it excepted. So why nerf the gear as a whole?

Chokolata.1870:

Celestial only gets strong with Might stacking, but then again, so does every other build. Might is the elephant in the room here.

This^^ a lot of people seem to forget might stacking isn’t exclusive to celestial specs.

like i said, improve:
- generic boon stripping options
- profession specific boon stripping abilities
- sustain of boon stripping professions
- skills / traits viability of boon stripping professions

we may see less QQ on the forums.