Guild Wars 2

Well, in that case I’d say I’m against fixing symptoms.

If pathing of charge skills (or rather, pathing in general is an issue), pathing needs to be fixed. Yes, this is a monumental task as it requires rewriting major parts of the engine most likely but I’d prefer that over wasting dev time to change skills to work around the main issue.

Although what I would say what could be done is to make it a pseudo-teleport. That is, for all technical purposes you are teleported. Only, animation-wise your char runs there, being allowed to clip through terrain to a certain degree to find a fast route (though then again, that “clip through it” would allow the actual charge to work fine, too).

It’s a tricky issue. I mean I get why you prefer to fix the symptoms for now, but I’m strictly against it OTOH, I hate it when I have to do that as a dev on the projects I work on. :P

Carighan.6758:

If pathing of charge skills (or rather, pathing in general is an issue), pathing needs to be fixed. Yes, this is a monumental task as it requires rewriting major parts of the engine most likely but I’d prefer that over wasting dev time to change skills to work around the main issue.

While it is ideally better, the fact they did fix “just the symptoms” on iLeap after more than 2 years of it having pathing issues is telling.
Since it is the exact same problem for BC, I wouldn’t rule out entirely such a fix (not that I would like it better, mind you).

Carighan.6758:

Although what I would say what could be done is to make it a pseudo-teleport. That is, for all technical purposes you are teleported. Only, animation-wise your char runs there, being allowed to clip through terrain to a certain degree to find a fast route (though then again, that “clip through it” would allow the actual charge to work fine, too).

Allowing clipping in the current state of the game would be the opposite of “allowing it to work fine”, I think xD
Cue warriors stuck in the ground or walls as a new festival decoration (not that I wouldn’t like it, mind you 0:) ).

Cygnus.6903:

The problem with this is that BR is not only a gap closer but also knocks down your opponent for two seconds. Doing that with absolute certainty that it would hit is a bad thing IMO, and would only ensure further warrior nerfing.

Honestly, just make it work as it should.

The problem with bull’s rush is that it is a gap closer and knock down. It being able to to do that with certainity would be a bad thing. Make it work as it should?

…you do understand that asking for it to work properly would allow it to be used as a gap closer that causes knock down with complete certainty…which you just said is a bad thing?

I think he did. But do keep in mind, sometimes bugs help balance otherwise unbalanced abilities. The old Mesmer Sword #3 worked ok because while the charge was terrible (not the same pathing issues as with BR, somehow the clone got the pet pathing which is worse than player pathing), you could teleport to the already-dead clone.

This was removed as part of the change to teleport the clone, and it’s a sorely missed feature.

Likewise, BR feels absurd if you could reliably gap close and knock down. Currently it’s unreliable and you got reaction time, this helps.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

The problem with bull’s rush is that it is a gap closer and knock down. It being able to to do that with certainity would be a bad thing. Make it work as it should?

…you do understand that asking for it to work properly would allow it to be used as a gap closer that causes knock down with complete certainty…which you just said is a bad thing?

The difference between “working as currently intended” and “working as a TP” is that in both case, connecting would indeed lead to a certain KD, but in the second case, connecting too would be certain. Which is not how it seems to be actually intended. Even without pathing and hit-registering bug, one can dodge or get out of the way by reading the animation. It would be extremely harder with a teleport. By definition, you can’t see a teleport coming.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Lucentfir.7430:

shimmerlessEU.6841:

DPS Guardian isn’t well-designed. Classes need to be a lot less like DPS Guard rather than more.

Yes pls, moar all in one package builds/classes please, kick the sacrifice from other specs already ;P

Yah, I seriously don’t understand the hate for Medi Guard. It is one of the more high risk-high reward builds out there. It’s strong but has several big weaknesses. It’s not like trip kit of D/D Eles that have an answer to everything.

Also, I’m getting really fed up with people not reading the full post before responding. It’s obvious because some of you are referring to things that have already been addressed.

I am not saying Med Guard isn’t high risk/reward (in a sense) I am saying that its actual in-combat design is poor, constant instant cast teleports creates an arms race situation that favors high invulnerability uptime. It is the exact same design motif with sword Thief which warped the game in a negative direction for so long.

If ArenaNet is afraid of ledgers they need to reduce the power of range, not create porting assassin specs to effectively shut them out of the game. This is what they did with HGH back when it was overbearing and it worked just fine. For a game that is based on capture points it is focused far too much on the strength of range and kiting to begin with.

shimmerlessEU.6841:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Lucentfir.7430:

shimmerlessEU.6841:

DPS Guardian isn’t well-designed. Classes need to be a lot less like DPS Guard rather than more.

Yes pls, moar all in one package builds/classes please, kick the sacrifice from other specs already ;P

Yah, I seriously don’t understand the hate for Medi Guard. It is one of the more high risk-high reward builds out there. It’s strong but has several big weaknesses. It’s not like trip kit of D/D Eles that have an answer to everything.

Also, I’m getting really fed up with people not reading the full post before responding. It’s obvious because some of you are referring to things that have already been addressed.

I am not saying Med Guard isn’t high risk/reward (in a sense) I am saying that its actual in-combat design is poor, constant instant cast teleports creates an arms race situation that favors high invulnerability uptime. It is the exact same design motif with sword Thief which warped the game in a negative direction for so long.

If ArenaNet is afraid of ledgers they need to reduce the power of range, not create porting assassin specs to effectively shut them out of the game. This is what they did with HGH back when it was overbearing and it worked just fine. For a game that is based on capture points it is focused far too much on the strength of range and kiting to begin with.

Then you should just say sword guardians only then. Since non sword builds don’t have any constant/frequent teleports, and if they do have a teleport it’s just JI , which hovers around a 36 s CD to kitten , thief is a different issue, and how are you even comparing a sword thief with flashing blade , when Thieves have a large array of teleports, ranging from shortbow 5(No CD, int cost), Shadow step, Infiltrator strike/Shadow return(init cost, no CD,immoblize, condi remove), steal, signet of Agility, those are all teleports/ Shadow steps, 2 of them not needing a target.

I don’t know what ancient computers people are playing on but I’ve never had an issue ever landing a Bull’s Rush and I play with 11 fps on a good day.

Lucentfir.7430:

shimmerlessEU.6841:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Lucentfir.7430:

shimmerlessEU.6841:

DPS Guardian isn’t well-designed. Classes need to be a lot less like DPS Guard rather than more.

Yes pls, moar all in one package builds/classes please, kick the sacrifice from other specs already ;P

Yah, I seriously don’t understand the hate for Medi Guard. It is one of the more high risk-high reward builds out there. It’s strong but has several big weaknesses. It’s not like trip kit of D/D Eles that have an answer to everything.

Also, I’m getting really fed up with people not reading the full post before responding. It’s obvious because some of you are referring to things that have already been addressed.

I am not saying Med Guard isn’t high risk/reward (in a sense) I am saying that its actual in-combat design is poor, constant instant cast teleports creates an arms race situation that favors high invulnerability uptime. It is the exact same design motif with sword Thief which warped the game in a negative direction for so long.

If ArenaNet is afraid of ledgers they need to reduce the power of range, not create porting assassin specs to effectively shut them out of the game. This is what they did with HGH back when it was overbearing and it worked just fine. For a game that is based on capture points it is focused far too much on the strength of range and kiting to begin with.

Then you should just say sword guardians only then. Since non sword builds don’t have any constant/frequent teleports, and if they do have a teleport it’s just JI , which hovers around a 36 s CD to kitten , thief is a different issue, and how are you even comparing a sword thief with flashing blade , when Thieves have a large array of teleports, ranging from shortbow 5(No CD, int cost), Shadow step, Infiltrator strike/Shadow return(init cost, no CD,immoblize, condi remove), steal, signet of Agility, those are all teleports/ Shadow steps, 2 of them not needing a target.

I am comparing them because they fulfil almost the exact same role. Sword Thief has been much more popular than Med Guard because it is simply more powerful (particularly w/r/t mobility), however it is very easy for that to change, apex setups have been dumped in the gutter and vice versa with ArenaNet’s volatile and unpredictable patch cycle. The biggest difference between the two is that Med Guard is completely all-in, meaning it suffers in team fights and can’t escape unfavorable matchups. If this ever changes we will just have a different flavor of Sword Thief to deal with.

Basically the design of instantly blinking around with innate blocks and dodges is bogus. I know why it exists and I’m saying that ArenaNet is completely wrong-headed in promoting these types of setups.

shimmerlessEU.6841:

Lucentfir.7430:

shimmerlessEU.6841:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Lucentfir.7430:

shimmerlessEU.6841:

DPS Guardian isn’t well-designed. Classes need to be a lot less like DPS Guard rather than more.

Yes pls, moar all in one package builds/classes please, kick the sacrifice from other specs already ;P

Yah, I seriously don’t understand the hate for Medi Guard. It is one of the more high risk-high reward builds out there. It’s strong but has several big weaknesses. It’s not like trip kit of D/D Eles that have an answer to everything.

Also, I’m getting really fed up with people not reading the full post before responding. It’s obvious because some of you are referring to things that have already been addressed.

I am not saying Med Guard isn’t high risk/reward (in a sense) I am saying that its actual in-combat design is poor, constant instant cast teleports creates an arms race situation that favors high invulnerability uptime. It is the exact same design motif with sword Thief which warped the game in a negative direction for so long.

If ArenaNet is afraid of ledgers they need to reduce the power of range, not create porting assassin specs to effectively shut them out of the game. This is what they did with HGH back when it was overbearing and it worked just fine. For a game that is based on capture points it is focused far too much on the strength of range and kiting to begin with.

Then you should just say sword guardians only then. Since non sword builds don’t have any constant/frequent teleports, and if they do have a teleport it’s just JI , which hovers around a 36 s CD to kitten , thief is a different issue, and how are you even comparing a sword thief with flashing blade , when Thieves have a large array of teleports, ranging from shortbow 5(No CD, int cost), Shadow step, Infiltrator strike/Shadow return(init cost, no CD,immoblize, condi remove), steal, signet of Agility, those are all teleports/ Shadow steps, 2 of them not needing a target.

I am comparing them because they fulfil almost the exact same role. Sword Thief has been much more popular than Med Guard because it is simply more powerful (particularly w/r/t mobility), however it is very easy for that to change, apex setups have been dumped in the gutter and vice versa with ArenaNet’s volatile and unpredictable patch cycle. The biggest difference between the two is that Med Guard is completely all-in, meaning it suffers in team fights and can’t escape unfavorable matchups. If this ever changes we will just have a different flavor of Sword Thief to deal with.

Basically the design of instantly blinking around with innate blocks and dodges is bogus. I know why it exists and I’m saying that ArenaNet is completely wrong-headed in promoting these types of setups.

How else would Guardians ever hit anything without them? I typically run scepter instead of sword so for me the only gap closer I have is JI. Without it you would be unbelievably easy to kite.

Anyways, this is off topic so can we get back to the matter at hand please?

Elidath.5679:

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

The problem with bull’s rush is that it is a gap closer and knock down. It being able to to do that with certainity would be a bad thing. Make it work as it should?

…you do understand that asking for it to work properly would allow it to be used as a gap closer that causes knock down with complete certainty…which you just said is a bad thing?

The difference between “working as currently intended” and “working as a TP” is that in both case, connecting would indeed lead to a certain KD, but in the second case, connecting too would be certain. Which is not how it seems to be actually intended. Even without pathing and hit-registering bug, one can dodge or get out of the way by reading the animation. It would be extremely harder with a teleport. By definition, you can’t see a teleport coming.

The Op suggested bull’s rush operated as a teleport with a animation similiar to the old mesmer illusionary leap. In other words it left a trailing affect. Upon usage a translucent image of the warrior overlaps towards the target. Upon arrival the warrior themselves connects causing the knockdown. The movement itself is a teleport in terms of how it operates under the hood, however in real time game play it still broadcasts a more than reasonable animation. What makes this idea appropriate is that 1) It resolves the on going issues with bull’s rush 2) Its animation is intuitive and form follows function so targeted players can can still evade like they were able to with illusionary leap.

This is the same problem Rangers have had for 2 years. The pets are borderline useless in WvW because they aren’t designed properly and aren’t reactive enough and at somepoint (I’d say after 2 years we’re at that point) it becmoes an issue of CAN (not will) it be fixed, or should we wave the white flag.

Those arguing Warriors don’t use magic are really looking at the ‘teleport’ solution too literally. The only difference between a melee teleport and a magical teleport is graphical.

A Mage poofs in a cloud of smoke and reappears someone else. A fighter super sonic speed rushes a target and leaves a trail back to their original location ala the matrix or any random anime.

The goal is it should work. If ANet can’t be bothered to fix it then justify the failure that is pathing by making caster teleports misfire 30% of the time.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

The Op suggested bull’s rush operated as a teleport with a animation similiar to the old mesmer illusionary leap. In other words it left a trailing affect. Upon usage a translucent image of the warrior overlaps towards the target. Upon arrival the warrior themselves connects causing the knockdown. The movement itself is a teleport in terms of how it operates under the hood, however in real time game play it still broadcasts a more than reasonable animation. What makes this idea appropriate is that 1) It resolves the on going issues with bull’s rush 2) Its animation is intuitive and form follows function so targeted players can can still evade like they were able to with illusionary leap.

I do get what the OP was saying, I was trying to explain what people understand when you talk about teleport, since all TP in the game are instant movement.

By the way, the old illusionary leap wasn’t a teleport, and it was truly awful.
Swap (iLeap followup) was (and still is) a teleport, but it is instant.

The title should read “What if bull’s charge actually hit the target” making it a teleport is a dumb idea.

Just make the skill work as intended and the world will be a better place.

It does hit the target. In my experience the occasions in which it tends not to is when the player moves out or range from the initiating point. That is what happens the majority of the time it happens to me. I mean, if it was such a problem, why are there not videos of it pasted all over the forums like there are for rocket boots in the bug thread for that skills problems? For that matter, why is there such a lack of foresight that this thread isn’t in the bug sub forums?

1.) Make it ground targetted
2.) Make your character move to target (ex. Ride the Lightning, maybe slightly faster)
3.) Knocks down foes in its path
4.) Has a .25s-.5s aftercast (stops player briefly afterwards)

dancingmonkey.4902:

It does hit the target. In my experience the occasions in which it tends not to is when the player moves out or range from the initiating point. That is what happens the majority of the time it happens to me. I mean, if it was such a problem, why are there not videos of it pasted all over the forums like there are for rocket boots in the bug thread for that skills problems? For that matter, why is there such a lack of foresight that this thread isn’t in the bug sub forums?

You can’t say the problem doesn’t exist just because you have not experienced it.

There are dozens of threads about this, dating as far back as early last year.

Yet you do not correct the post that over exaggerated it and claim it "never hits the target? It works just as well (or as poorly) as swoop on the ranger greatsword and engineers rocket boots.

personally me and many ppl have experienced much worse server performances since last big patch.

i don’t think they “broke bull’s rush”, the skill is simply very lag-sensitive and lag has become an actual issue since a while ago.

fix servers and bull’s rush will be back in its “not really reliable but not as bad as it is now” spot.

coglin.1867:

Yet you do not correct the post that over exaggerated it and claim it "never hits the target? It works just as well (or as poorly) as swoop on the ranger greatsword and engineers rocket boots.

For me, I would say that it connects less than 50% of the time. This is when I am in range and the target is doing nothing that would cause it to hit. Another 25% I hit but it causes one of the funky effects I’ve mentioned before.

Also, those 2 skills you mentioned have much less powerful effects and much lower CD than BC. It’s bad that they don’t work, but generally your entire build doesn’t revolve around it. Missing a 40 sec CD 2 second KD through no fault of your own really sucks, especially when it comes to using weapons that have a highly telegraphed attack.

It’s also clearly not just me having this problem, or we wouldn’t of had so many +1s on that other thread.

It seems like you and others are opposed to doing anything to fix Warriors because it’s Warriors and we all love dat War hate train Choo Choo. If you want fixes for other class’s skills then make a thread about that, this thread is about Warriors.

Your not doing anyone any favors by trying to suggest it is more of a problem for warrior skills and implying they need special treatment. As a player who plays multiple professions, it would seem to me that you will simply segregate yourself from support on the issue from the rest of the community.

coglin.1867:

Your not doing anyone any favors by trying to suggest it is more of a problem for warrior skills and implying they need special treatment. As a player who plays multiple professions, it would seem to me that you will simply segregate yourself from support on the issue from the rest of the community.

If they can fix them all at once, great. Here’s the problem, they probably won’t. Also, there’s 2 separate problems here I think. Skills like Swoop and Rocket Boots are worse than they were before due to the game lag being so much worse than it used to be. This affects Bull’s Charge as well, but it also didn’t work that good before this either.

This is probably because the mechanics and coding behind just don’t seem to work all the time. The other gap closers all generally worked before the September patch, now they don’t. BC since launch worked…OK…but never great. Lag has been getting steadily worse.

In summation, the other leap/gap closing skills seem to be having problems not due to mechanical issues, but lag ones. In contrast skills like Bull’s Charge and Rush are broken on a mechanical level which is why I focus on them. I play every class except Ele, and I used to before I deleted it. No other class has such severe issues with their gap closers. If you want to test it yourself, find a PvE area with a low population and you’ll most likely find that most gap closers work fine. Now of course this isn’t good for testing War skills because most mobs just stand there but if you attack them then fall back and use BC/Rush you’ll still find yourself missing when you try to hit them while they move.

Your are wrong. The swoop and RB problems occurred in empty maps. It happens when you touch any key at all during the skill animation. I have tested it, repeatedly, videos it and posted it in the bug forums. I never chose to spam the balance forums with it. As it has nothing to do with balance directly. As well, your suggestion as to when their functionality became bugged is wrong. RB and Swoop have always stopped in mid motion and stopped short as if they hit a wall.

Just polish and “fix” the animation, nothing else needed.

Same thing with Rush.

coglin.1867:

Your are wrong. The swoop and RB problems occurred in empty maps. It happens when you touch any key at all during the skill animation. I have tested it, repeatedly, videos it and posted it in the bug forums. I never chose to spam the balance forums with it. As it has nothing to do with balance directly. As well, your suggestion as to when their functionality became bugged is wrong. RB and Swoop have always stopped in mid motion and stopped short as if they hit a wall.

I have really, really bad internet and am having no major issues with Swoop/RB. The only issue I do have is that with RB I sometimes have to repress the W key to move after I land.

That doesn’t mean that nothing is wrong with them, but even when I fight people using said skills I don’t often encounter situations where I catch players using them because they stopped mid skill. In contrast, whenever a War uses BC against me, I just walk forward and even if they hit they can rarely follow up because I’ll be facing the opposite direction.

Also, comparing Swoop and RB to BC seems ridiculous since the first 2 are generally used to create distance, or missing with them doesn’t significantly screw with your effectiveness. If Swoop doesn’t hit It doesn’t make my DPS garbage. When you miss BC it does. RB only does damage at the launch point, so comparing it to BC makes even less sense.

Burr what you are missing the point is that turning Bull’s Rush into a teleport will make it overpowered as hell.

If you want to get an idea, think of it like a thief with sleight of hand. Sleight of hand is a very powerful trait. However, this time Sleight of hand doesn’t daze anymore, it gives a 2 second knockdown and then the thief can heartseeker spam the enemy down very easily.

Warrior with the changed Bull’s rush will be like that. Except, There is no grandmaster trait required. Only a single utility skill.

Bull’s Rush is okay without a teleport because there is a cast time and that enemies can dodge it. It is much better if ANet fixes the bug than use your suggestion.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I have really, really bad internet and am having no major issues with Swoop/RB. The only issue I do have is that with RB I sometimes have to repress the W key to move after I land.

If someone stated they never had a problem with Bulls charge, in a manner that seemed to imply there is nothing wrong with the skill, would you accept that as fact? Look up the post on RB on the bug forums. There are 4 videos posted. In one, at around the half way point the players character does a 180 mid animation and ends up in the starting location, only facing the other direction. In another, at around the half way point the players character does a 90 degree left turn mid animation, and ends up facing the left direction. In another, at around the half way point the players character does a 90 degree right turn mid animation, and ends up facing the right direction. In the last, the players moves 25% of the distance, and stops moving, with the animation continuing, while no more distance is covered. With 4 pages of other players confirming they have had these problems

BurrTheKing.8571:

That doesn’t mean that nothing is wrong with them, but even when I fight people using said skills I don’t often encounter situations where I catch players using them because they stopped mid skill. In contrast, whenever a War uses BC against me, I just walk forward and even if they hit they can rarely follow up because I’ll be facing the opposite direction.

This is the case when I fight other warriors as well. It seems to me, that the problem is that the skill does not adjust with the movement of the targeted player.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, comparing Swoop and RB to BC seems ridiculous since the first 2 are generally used to create distance, or missing with them doesn’t significantly screw with your effectiveness. If Swoop doesn’t hit It doesn’t make my DPS garbage. When you miss BC it does. RB only does damage at the launch point, so comparing it to BC makes even less sense.

Here you go again, presuming to tell folks what the entire community uses skills for, when I can hardly believe you have encounter anything more then a very small fraction of players using those skills across 50+ servers of play. Your making a strong effort to down play others problems in an attempt to make your seem more pressing.

Your not being very community oriented with that mentality. So tell me, as swoop does more damage then Bulls charge, how are you claiming swoop is not losing damage compared to bulls charge?

What if hundred blades was a 1200 range skill that throws swords? Like rapid fire.
What if earth shaker created a meteor shower on landing?
What if warbanner was not just a rez skill but also downed every enemy?
What if eviscerate was undodgeable unblockable 600 radius aoe?
What if leg specialist worked with any condition not just cripple?

runeblade.7514:

Burr what you are missing the point is that turning Bull’s Rush into a teleport will make it overpowered as hell.

If you want to get an idea, think of it like a thief with sleight of hand. Sleight of hand is a very powerful trait. However, this time Sleight of hand doesn’t daze anymore, it gives a 2 second knockdown and then the thief can heartseeker spam the enemy down very easily.

Warrior with the changed Bull’s rush will be like that. Except, There is no grandmaster trait required. Only a single utility skill.

Bull’s Rush is okay without a teleport because there is a cast time and that enemies can dodge it. It is much better if ANet fixes the bug than use your suggestion.

My proposed change does not make it an instant teleport. What it does do is give an “aftereffect” visual that moves similar to what the current skill does. At the same time this plays out the Warrior is doing a “cast” of around a 1/2 second, which is about how long the current skill takes to do its thing. At the end of this “cast” the Warrior teleports and KDs the target. If the skill misses via dodge or what have you you still “teleport” but the skill misses of course.

What you’re seeing as a player is very similar to identical to what you see in the current skill. The only thing that changes is what is going on under the hood of the game. It’s just using more reliable mechanics. You will have the same amount of time to react, but the skill will always hit when it should.

As for Rush, it’s less about making the attack connect and more about the attack launching as soon as you reach your target and not rooting yourself so that you stay on top of your target, rather than standing still and whiffing as they put the distance that you just crossed between you again.

P.S to many on this thread, the skill is called Bull’s CHARGE, not Bull’s RUSH. I point this out because Wars have another skill called Rush.

I’m trying to remain polite but it’s getting really annoying to repeatedly repeat the same thing about how you as a player will see little difference in how the skill works, and that only the mechanics will change. It will not make BC OP, it will just make it hit when it should hit, nothing more and nothing less.

Compare a dps guard with mediations to a dps warrior with shoutheal.

Bullcharge should work as intended and shouldn’t get influence by aegis and blinds.
Probably than it’s still not viable but nice in a GS-troll build.

coglin.1867:

BurrTheKing.8571:

I have really, really bad internet and am having no major issues with Swoop/RB. The only issue I do have is that with RB I sometimes have to repress the W key to move after I land.

If someone stated they never had a problem with Bulls charge, in a manner that seemed to imply there is nothing wrong with the skill, would you accept that as fact? Look up the post on RB on the bug forums. There are 4 videos posted. In one, at around the half way point the players character does a 180 mid animation and ends up in the starting location, only facing the other direction. In another, at around the half way point the players character does a 90 degree left turn mid animation, and ends up facing the left direction. In another, at around the half way point the players character does a 90 degree right turn mid animation, and ends up facing the right direction. In the last, the players moves 25% of the distance, and stops moving, with the animation continuing, while no more distance is covered. With 4 pages of other players confirming they have had these problems

BurrTheKing.8571:

That doesn’t mean that nothing is wrong with them, but even when I fight people using said skills I don’t often encounter situations where I catch players using them because they stopped mid skill. In contrast, whenever a War uses BC against me, I just walk forward and even if they hit they can rarely follow up because I’ll be facing the opposite direction.

This is the case when I fight other warriors as well. It seems to me, that the problem is that the skill does not adjust with the movement of the targeted player.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Also, comparing Swoop and RB to BC seems ridiculous since the first 2 are generally used to create distance, or missing with them doesn’t significantly screw with your effectiveness. If Swoop doesn’t hit It doesn’t make my DPS garbage. When you miss BC it does. RB only does damage at the launch point, so comparing it to BC makes even less sense.

Here you go again, presuming to tell folks what the entire community uses skills for, when I can hardly believe you have encounter anything more then a very small fraction of players using those skills across 50+ servers of play. Your making a strong effort to down play others problems in an attempt to make your seem more pressing.

Your not being very community oriented with that mentality. So tell me, as swoop does more damage then Bulls charge, how are you claiming swoop is not losing damage compared to bulls charge?

• If Swoop misses, you have a much shorter CD

• If Swoop misses, you have the main combo of Hilt Bash and Maul, which is where most of the GS’s dmg comes from.

• If Bull’s Charge misses, it goes on a long CD.

• If Bull’s Charge misses, chances are you were using it to set up either 100b, Skull Crack, or a similarly highly telegraphed skill and have now missed that follow up. You now have a difficult to land skill that is almost worthless, and it may have not been your fault.

I never said the Swoop/RB issues shouldn’t be fixed, but I don’t understand why you can’t see that I would much rather have important offensive skills that make many weapons/tactics on a class unviable first. I want everything fixed, but with recent updates War has received a ton of heavy hits. Some of the few buffs it got would be useful if BC worked. As I said before I play every class but Ele, and of all of those classes I feel like Warrior is the most limited when it comes to build diversity. You are basically forced into using a bow in PvP and you only run a few double melee sets in WvW and that’s often due to food making movement impairments less painful.

Make bull’s charge like the charge skill in necro’s flash golem (but without stability)? In that way we keep the anesthetics and avoid many silly target missing issue like walking towards the charging player. Not necessary overpower since wrong distance prediction/close range usage may cause the warrior to overshoot and fail to connect the rest of the skills (and give opponent time to recover). Not necessary underpower since warrior can potentially knock down a line of people on the path like an actual bull.

Yea, but… it’s a knock down.

they tried to fix it several times, didnt work, think they gave up… so yeah all of those charge skills should be reworked into teleport skills that actually connect. I’m with Burr here – knockdown or no knockdown i dont even care aslong as i dont fly over the next cliff when charging someone.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I never said the Swoop/RB issues shouldn’t be fixed, but I don’t understand why you can’t see that I would much rather have important offensive skills that make many weapons/tactics on a class unviable first.

Well, people die plenty fast in this game. I see no issue with fixing defensive skills first to provide longer lifetime, more time to be tactical about your fight, and less reliance on pure physical performance in a fight. Seems sensible. then evaluate whether offensive skills should actually be fixed or just kept at the level they are and changed to not be as obviously prone to bugging.

Seriously Burr, you should stop trying.

Anytime somebody posts a topic like this, however strong your argument may be, you will get the inevitable ignorance of the gross amount of forum posters here to bury the topic.

You must understand by now that this discussion could only dwindle into bickering about wether or not you can compare skills on different classes to make a point. In this very specific example I believe you were right to do so, but you were also incorrect. Not because the comparison doesn’t make sense, as you are only making it to adress the fact that one mechanic does not work as intended where the other one does. But because you inevitably invited a horde of warrior haters to come and flame this illustrative example.

I like the idea of a cast time before Bull’s, then make it so you instant hit the target after the CT. Such an animation could actually look really cool, while still not insulting the warriors-can’t-use-magic-even-though-they-can-magically-transform-themselves-crowd. We’re playing a freaking fantasy game, get over yourself.

The cast must be longer then 1/2 second though, as that’s still not very much on a 900 range guarantueed 2sec knockdown (apart from blocking or evading). 3/4 second seems better. The warrior would still need to be able to move while casting though, otherwise it would be clunky as hell.

Carighan.6758:

Well, people die plenty fast in this game. I see no issue with fixing defensive skills first to provide longer lifetime, more time to be tactical about your fight, and less reliance on pure physical performance in a fight. Seems sensible. then evaluate whether offensive skills should actually be fixed or just kept at the level they are and changed to not be as obviously prone to bugging.

I do see an issue with that. I simply disagree that lifetime is too short in this game. I prefer a game in which you can burst somebody down, not a game where some random guardian can run around a point using every single lifeprolonging thing he has and outsustaining a zerking warrior hitting him in the face for minutes. Not only is this a little stupid, it is boring as hell too.

Ah, but see, I mostly play PvE and WvW. My perspective is very different. I rarely fight below 5v5 in my combat, and if I do, it’s to get the hell away from whatever is attacking me and come back with my group of 5.

And in 5v5, the focus target has time to realize that there’s an enemy, then they’re downed.

Carighan.6758:

And in 5v5, the focus target has time to realize that there’s an enemy, then they’re downed.

In which case the focussed target got outplayed, or, in a more broad perspective, one group of five got outplayed.

I also play WvW (pretty much solely) and I focus on smaller skirmishing. With our past few and current match-ups, we have been facing insane numbers. I would not want to play a game in which those numbers can not be overcome.

As for PvE, I find that part of the game painfully boring as is (it’s a personal thing, I don’t like PvE in any game anymore). So being able to zerk my way through it if I time whatever active defense I have right, is a blessing to me.

Cygnus.6903:

Seriously Burr, you should stop trying.

Anytime somebody posts a topic like this, however strong your argument may be, you will get the inevitable ignorance of the gross amount of forum posters here to bury the topic.

You must understand by now that this discussion could only dwindle into bickering about wether or not you can compare skills on different classes to make a point. In this very specific example I believe you were right to do so, but you were also incorrect. Not because the comparison doesn’t make sense, as you are only making it to adress the fact that one mechanic does not work as intended where the other one does. But because you inevitably invited a horde of warrior haters to come and flame this illustrative example.

I like the idea of a cast time before Bull’s, then make it so you instant hit the target after the CT. Such an animation could actually look really cool, while still not insulting the warriors-can’t-use-magic-even-though-they-can-magically-transform-themselves-crowd. We’re playing a freaking fantasy game, get over yourself.

The cast must be longer then 1/2 second though, as that’s still not very much on a 900 range guarantueed 2sec knockdown (apart from blocking or evading). 3/4 second seems better. The warrior would still need to be able to move while casting though, otherwise it would be clunky as hell.

You’re right that 1/2 sec might be too short, but it was more of a throw out number just to give you an idea of how it would work.

As for the other issue…I should stop…but for some reason can’t. There are some people who will just post something to disagree with me because it’s me. It will also be clear that they never read the whole post.

Or anet could just fix the bugs in leap skills so they work right.

in what universe do bull’s teleport?!

what if it wasnt? oh wait! its fine as it is!

The 2 posts above prove that they didn’t read the OP at all.

Agreed they obviously didn’t pay the slightest bit of attention.

Then it wouldn’t be Bull’s Charge anymore.

Well, I’m for increasing reliability without increasing power as there are a bunch of things that simply don’t hit when they should. Instead of a teleport though, the idea of using an animation closer to swoop or leap of faith would make more sense. This is not saying a blind or evade should be added, or the range should be increased; this is just saying that when the button is pressed and the skill is not dodged, blocked, or blinded (etc), it should connect. This isn’t just a problem with bull’s charge though, it’s a problem with a number of movement skills.

Maugetarr.6823:

Well, I’m for increasing reliability without increasing power as there are a bunch of things that simply don’t hit when they should. Instead of a teleport though, the idea of using an animation closer to swoop or leap of faith would make more sense. This is not saying a blind or evade should be added, or the range should be increased; this is just saying that when the button is pressed and the skill is not dodged, blocked, or blinded (etc), it should connect. This isn’t just a problem with bull’s charge though, it’s a problem with a number of movement skills.

Yes, if possible an animation that is identical to the current one would be nice. The only issue I see is the camera. You would see yourself moving away while your camera stays where you are then you suddenly jump forward. That’s why I figured a “Flash-style” sprinting stance as a tell followed by the teleport with a afterimage would be less jarring/more natural looking.

If it works you could apply it to other skills as well. I think Swoop/Rocket Boots are more fixable because they lift you off the ground. I think another problem with Bull’s Charge is that you’re moving across the ground instead of the air. That being said making you leap would make the skill look…odd I’d imagine.

Lol i choked laughing at this one. Warrior just teleporting in, knocking you down instantly then hundred blading your face or giving you a nice evicerate right in the noggin. Oof make it a stunbreak while you’re at it.

SaintSnow.6593:

Lol i choked laughing at this one. Warrior just teleporting in, knocking you down instantly then hundred blading your face or giving you a nice evicerate right in the noggin. Oof make it a stunbreak while you’re at it.

Add another to the list of people who post without reading.