Guild Wars 2

with the upcoming patch a longbow glass ranger will be a nightmare for all other zerkers.

i already run a build that can drop anyone FAST, from 1500
but now its getting buffed to the extreme,
ofcourse you’re dead if someone gets close,
but with the right spot you can snipe them down before they have a chance.

other than that though, there is very little reason to play power over condis in pvp,
since you need a large point investment to be doing decent damage (prec, ferocity, power) while condi builds only need to put points in Condi damage,
and maybe some duration thrown in, but generally you can spec much more defensively than power builds, while still pumping out huge armour ignoring damage..

Carighan.6758:

T raw.4658:

Dev team balances for PvP no WvW. You don’t like it then take it up with them. Until then the “meta” that decides balance has nothing to do with power builds.

Also WvW “meta” is a Bunker “meta” as well….Hell the best roaming builds are condi bunker or hybrid.

What class you running btw where this condi requires some thought process

I run power shatter variants, if you got to know. Change more or less daily. Been running, um, since release:

• Blackwater (that was back when PU gave a boon every 3s, not every 1s, so before Natsu made the actual build, but 20/20/30 was a concept long before that :P ).
• Full power phantasm.
• Full raid bot with phantasms.
• Condi shatter.
• Full interrupt.

Might be 2-3 more in there, but then I didn’t run them for long.

I’m sorry, but the condi builds don’t cut it. And from the changes we see, I’m not sure I’d even agree ANet balances based on modes where condition damage can do something good. That’s partially because it never does anything good outside of hotjoin matches and low-skill WvW solo roaming. And looking at the changes they make, they seem to be aware that condition-effects need quite a bit of help. :P

Thinking back to it, I don’t think the ToL had much condi damage in the higher teams, either. At least I remember Mesmer being the usually double ranged shatter which is hardly a condi build.

It’s always a bit surprising to me when people complain about conditions in general because apart from when you set out into PvP (either mode), you don’t really see conditions any more. They’re just… gone. They’re there ofc because well, your attacks happen to apply them but focusing on them and stat-ing for them is pretty much the last thing you do. :P

Ok so basically you either play passive AI condi builds or a semi active AI condi build.

Thank you for clearing this up and this completely explains your erroneous stance on this.

dire gear, perplexity, and condition food

these things are why conditions are extraordinarily broken in wvw, and the design of conditions (which both dire and condi food help to further exaggerate) are why they’re too strong in 1v1s in pvp.

condi users will defend their crutches to death so there’s no point in arguing with them, they’ve always talked in circles and refuse to believe anything that points out the fact that conditions are as lazy and overrewarding as AI builds

sinject.4607:

dire gear, perplexity, and condition food

these things are why conditions are extraordinarily broken in wvw, and the design of conditions (which both dire and condi food help to further exaggerate) are why they’re too strong in 1v1s in pvp.

condi users will defend their crutches to death so there’s no point in arguing with them, they’ve always talked in circles and refuse to believe anything that points out the fact that conditions are as lazy and overrewarding as AI builds

Let me know what AI builds are played at the upper levels of PvP. Virtually none, because they really aren’t that hard to defeat. AI builds have a low skill floor, but the skill ceiling is barely any higher because the player has such limited input. Once you figure out how to beat a newbie running AI, you’re 80-95% of the way toward beating a master of running an AI build.

Funnily enough, something similar is true with condition builds. People don’t seem to get that there are condition attacks that you should blind/block/dodge just the same as there are power attacks that you want to do that with. Why? Because they don’t see a huge number pop up immediately when they get hit with the skill, so they don’t figure out that it is that skill that is getting them killed.

A lot of people also don’t understand that they don’t need to be totally condition-free to beat condition builds and will use their cleanses when they would be better saved.

This has nothing to do with condition builds being overpowered; they’re actually on the weaker end for PvP. It has to do with lower-skill players not understanding how to properly counterplay against a condition build. I’ve seen engineers take on condition necros with only Healing Turret for a cleanse, yet come out so far on top, the necro may as well have been a Veteran mob. Those engineers (by far in the minority, granted) knew exactly how to counterplay the necro and did so brilliantly.

SonOfJacob.7396:

Serious question here, because I’d like to understand: if there were a way to implement semi-permanent condi clears for a specific amount of time (ie, a condi clear skill prevents condis from being applied for x number of seconds – I’m thinking like 4 seconds or something), would that at all help or hinder the situation?

I don’t consistently read all forum posts, so I don’t know if anyone’s raised this before.

So if I’m playing my necro condition spec’d can I be immune to direct damage for 4 seconds after you hit me? You’re talking about complete immunity to condition damage; this is not even remotely balanced. Your apparent perspective is very one-sided; I’d suggest you try playing/looking at it from both sides.

You’re also missing the fact that condition clears are not the only counter to condition damage; direct damage works too. Dead enemies don’t apply conditions and direct damage kills faster than conditions.

There are multiple issues with conditions which cause them to have such astonishing binary representations in PvP scenarios.

The first being food in WvW; condition duration food – both increases and decreases – should be removed. As it stands, it already hurts condition users more than it helps them, as the duration reduction effects end up forcing them to tick for less damage than they would if neither party has condition food.

There is too much removal on some of the most essential classes and skills, and not enough on the rest. Guardians have incredible access to condition removal and additionally have massive party support potential and hard CC attached to AOE’s. Warriors with CI (although we’ll see what happens post-patch) are in the same boat in their resistance to condition builds. With so much removal placed on characters and builds that already have very prominent uses in all forms of PvP, this reduces condi viability by default.

What makes them over the top in roaming and small groups is that classes associated with this have very limited access to removal effects. Thieves for example have some of the worst condition removal access in the game -the absolute worst by a large margin without Shadow Atrs – paired with the lowest base health pool, and are only useful in roaming groups, thus making them extremely vulnerable to condi bombs. The same is said for various other builds and classes which have no place in zergs or the strict sPvP meta focused on turtling points and CC.

Whether or not condition builds have better defensive options per their offensive ones is irrelevant. They should, as ultimately that’s the reason anyone would want to play DoT. The issue is often tied to condi bombs spreading multiple stacks of different types of conditions on a target and a lack of universal cleansing attached to heals. Imagine if every heal skill removed DoT conditions, the number of which scaling with its cooldown. It’d represent a fight with a power build in that a heal when blown will cause a fight to sort of reset. The damage dealt and applied in the past has effectively been mitigated and the person who used the heal isn’t going to die until he takes more new hits all over again. Now a well-timed clear and heal can help reset a fight against a condition user, but won’t require excessive building-around to try and simply deal with the application of some sorts of damage. Yea, most condi bombs are avoidable, just as is power damage, but these aren’t comparable. Consider how often you move away from your opponents using power-based damage to simply not take any more damage so your cooldowns can refresh and you won’t die. You cannot do this against condition players, so strictly speaking, it’s more punishing to be hit by condition attacks, which means that risk-reward by default is skewed favoring condition users even before the stat race and damage per defense point is taken into account.

This with a reduction on accessible light fields/finishers for AOE removal, and overall the effectiveness of CC+damage and support-heavy classes builds would push conditions into a much more healthy position in the PvP environment.

Whoever in their right mind is still playing WvW at this point is pretty much going to be part of the dregs that enjoy AFK/condition specs. If ANet had ever wanted to stop the bleeding that ship has long since sailed.

T raw.4658:

Ok so basically you either play passive AI condi builds or a semi active AI condi build.

Thank you for clearing this up and this completely explains your erroneous stance on this.

You realize I play a Mesmer, yes? The part where I need to spawn clones or phantasms to use my class ability is something you heard about, yes?

Just making sure, because I don’t want to simply file your reaction under strawman.

But under the assumption that one should never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by a lack of information (in this case):

• Mesmer has Satter (sic, or word filter gets it) as their class mechanic. It takes the existent Illusions and destroys them for a specific effect.
• The four abilities are: Mind Wrack , Cry of Frustration , Diversion and Distortion .
• Each ability can only be used without Illusions active with a specific grandmaster trait from the illusion line, Illusionary Persona . However even with that, output is minimal without illusions to feed to the skills.

So as you can see, all Mesmer specs always heavily rely on AI-controlled temporary pets. Either to use them for output, for utility effects or simply for feeding them to another skill.

sinject.4607:

dire gear, perplexity, and condition food

these things are why conditions are extraordinarily broken in wvw, and the design of conditions (which both dire and condi food help to further exaggerate) are why they’re too strong in 1v1s in pvp.

condi users will defend their crutches to death so there’s no point in arguing with them, they’ve always talked in circles and refuse to believe anything that points out the fact that conditions are as lazy and overrewarding as AI builds

Prove it.

Write up some numbers for us. You and others repeatedly make this unproven claim in a definitive manner, yet never offer any actual evidence. Why? because you actually have none. You make irresponsible claims, based on assumption from your rather then to actually crunch any numbers to find out if your accurate or not. The comical part is that unless a players irrationally spams skills with confusion stacks on (in which place you could probably kill them with no gear on at all) then perplexity runes are not even in the top 5 for condi damage out put. Of coarse we are aware you do not know this, because you claim they make a build broken, and didn’t even mention the others.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Write up some numbers for us. You and others repeatedly make this unproven claim in a definitive manner, yet never offer any actual evidence. Why? because you actually have none.

Best part is what it tells you about the players in question. Because conditions aren’t a key factor in any higher levels of play, you always know that they’re talking about low-skill WvW roaming or hotjoin or some random 5-group stomping.

Come higher levels of sPvP play where people are focused down too fast and you don’t get much quality 1 on 1 time any more, come any form of larger force in WvW or highway-patrols against the roamers and come any form of non-solo PvE, conditions nearly disappear.

For quite valid reasons.

Conditions need quite a lot of help. At the very least:

• Move to fully controlled conditions.
• In turn, conditions last quite long and also deal significantly more damage than direct attacks (say, a 15s CD direct damage attack causes X damage, a 15s CD and 15s lasting DoT deals 2,5x~3x X damage over the 15 seconds).
• All group/area cleanses except maybe the odd elite removed. Personal cleansing straightened out, long CD (all conditions now take a long time to work their magic) but full cleanse + brief re-application immunity.
• No more slot limitations. There’s now a ton less conditions flying around (though total damage is increased or unchanged), but it no longer makes sense to limit them with the reduced number.
• Some PvE mobs learn to cleanse themselves or (telegraphed!) others. Gives more chances for interrupt-play, too. This should be by-type. E.g. Medic-type mobs have an always-same-animation 2s cast which cleanses in a 900 radius.

Anyhow, point is, damage way up, control up, duration lengthened, cleansing reduced. Damage-per-second probably down a bit. Would also need to rethink gear balance but that’s a different topic altogether.

Carighan.6758:

T raw.4658:

Ok so basically you either play passive AI condi builds or a semi active AI condi build.

Thank you for clearing this up and this completely explains your erroneous stance on this.

You realize I play a Mesmer, yes? The part where I need to spawn clones or phantasms to use my class ability is something you heard about, yes?

Just making sure, because I don’t want to simply file your reaction under strawman.

But under the assumption that one should never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by a lack of information (in this case):

• Mesmer has Satter (sic, or word filter gets it) as their class mechanic. It takes the existent Illusions and destroys them for a specific effect.
• The four abilities are: Mind Wrack , Cry of Frustration , Diversion and Distortion .
• Each ability can only be used without Illusions active with a specific grandmaster trait from the illusion line, Illusionary Persona . However even with that, output is minimal without illusions to feed to the skills.

So as you can see, all Mesmer specs always heavily rely on AI-controlled temporary pets. Either to use them for output, for utility effects or simply for feeding them to another skill.

I have mesmer mate….feel like a zombie on that thing.

If you’re talking about only roaming in WvW, then sure, conditions are strong.

Now go run in a zerg v zerg scenario with that “OP” condition build and let us know how that works out for you.

The problem with conditions is that they’re completely useless in some areas of the game and too strong in others. The entire system needs an overhaul, because they aren’t viable in PvE and they aren’t viable in large-scale WvW, whereas they are very strong in 1v1 or small-scale scenarios. The strength of condition builds is inconsistent, unlike power builds that can do well in any part of the game.

I don’t really see how the argument of high level tPvP fits in here. This game’s tPvP is based on point capture and has very little to do with outright killing the enemy as opposed to getting them off of the point as quickly as possible and keeping them from taking you off of it. The fact that the entirety of the game is balanced around this game mode is the reason why the balancing is in shambles like this in the first place, and doesn’t really justify any sort of issues with the condition system.

Black Box.9312:

I don’t really see how the argument of high level tPvP fits in here. This game’s tPvP is based on point capture and has very little to do with outright killing the enemy as opposed to getting them off of the point as quickly as possible and keeping them from taking you off of it. The fact that the entirety of the game is balanced around this game mode is the reason why the balancing is in shambles like this in the first place, and doesn’t really justify any sort of issues with the condition system.

However, who is to say that a balance based on killing would be a “better choice”?
I mean, sure it’s the more common one, but hardly because so many MMOs tried every option so far, is it now? :P

Why isn’t a balance based on flag capture better? Or based on control of mobile siege vehicles? Absurd examples in a way, but why is a balanced based on hardpoint domination inherently supposed to be bad?
Instead of, you know, smallscale PvP in a class-based RPG just being a terrible idea to begin with and that invalidating any further balance attempts?

Carighan.6758:

T raw.4658:

Ok so basically you either play passive AI condi builds or a semi active AI condi build.

Thank you for clearing this up and this completely explains your erroneous stance on this.

You realize I play a Mesmer, yes? The part where I need to spawn clones or phantasms to use my class ability is something you heard about, yes?

Just making sure, because I don’t want to simply file your reaction under strawman.

But under the assumption that one should never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by a lack of information (in this case):

• Mesmer has Satter (sic, or word filter gets it) as their class mechanic. It takes the existent Illusions and destroys them for a specific effect.
• The four abilities are: Mind Wrack , Cry of Frustration , Diversion and Distortion .
• Each ability can only be used without Illusions active with a specific grandmaster trait from the illusion line, Illusionary Persona . However even with that, output is minimal without illusions to feed to the skills.

So as you can see, all Mesmer specs always heavily rely on AI-controlled temporary pets. Either to use them for output, for utility effects or simply for feeding them to another skill.

Tried of everyone and their mother saying “Straw Man” to everything they disagree with…

At this point I automatically assume the people of Guild Wars 2 have 0 clue as to what or how that termed is used. Trying to sound intelligent and being so are two very different things.

Also, Mesmer is a extremely easy to profit class. Mesmer and Thieves are the easiest to play and profit with little investment of skill. It is a fact regardless of this now desegregated community’s comments on the subject. It was the opinion of all the original pro players that made Guild Wars the name it was (and no longer is….) and not to mention it is fairly obvious.

Vanthian.9267:

Tried of everyone and their mother saying “Straw Man” to everything they disagree with…

At this point I automatically assume the people of Guild Wars 2 have 0 clue as to what or how that termed is used. Trying to sound intelligent and being so are two very different things.

I know. It usually gets thrown out a lot, so I did actually look it up before throwing the term around. It’s quite specific. Original argument was about conditions vs power, he made it out to be me arguing about AI builds, and then “refuted” that by showing how I would be biased due to playing an AI-dependent spec.

Only, that had nothing to do with the original thing any more. :P

(edit)
Second part, in theory I’d agree, only 2 years in it no longer makes sense. If it were true, we’d see massive amounts of Mesmers and Thieves. Only we don’t. Both struggle in most situations, and compared to the always-powerful classes are as a result quite rare. Why play a Mesmer good in X, if you can play a Guardian also good in X but also in everything else with a slightly changed spec?

That reasoning coupled with the initial advantage classes like Warriors, Rangers and Guardians have with newcomers might explain why Mesmers are so rare. We’re far from weak though, and well, not really the point of the thread. This isn’t about Mesmer or Thief or whatever at all. Except maybe Guardian, all classes can viably compare a condition and a power build, usually multiple.
In all such situations, the condition build falls apart outside of smallest-scale encounters, while power is useful across the board. There’s very little reason to play condition as a result, which also shows in the builds used.

Carighan.6758:

Black Box.9312:

I don’t really see how the argument of high level tPvP fits in here. This game’s tPvP is based on point capture and has very little to do with outright killing the enemy as opposed to getting them off of the point as quickly as possible and keeping them from taking you off of it. The fact that the entirety of the game is balanced around this game mode is the reason why the balancing is in shambles like this in the first place, and doesn’t really justify any sort of issues with the condition system.

However, who is to say that a balance based on killing would be a “better choice”?
I mean, sure it’s the more common one, but hardly because so many MMOs tried every option so far, is it now? :P

Why isn’t a balance based on flag capture better? Or based on control of mobile siege vehicles? Absurd examples in a way, but why is a balanced based on hardpoint domination inherently supposed to be bad?
Instead of, you know, smallscale PvP in a class-based RPG just being a terrible idea to begin with and that invalidating any further balance attempts?

Because the core aspect of where the balancing matters is within the combat. Therefore if you balance for anything other than the combat itself, you are not going to achieve proper balance. Guardian players, for example, have been told for the past two years that they’ve been ‘in a good place’. However, the class is really only in a good place as a bunker/support, and other builds that are more focused on winning fights over holding points have been largely ignored despite being in need of some QoL changes. It doesn’t matter how good you are at bunkering in PvE, because holding a point over the AI isn’t going to accomplish anything.

So basically, the idea here is that the combat is really the universal mechanic of all game modes. Therefore it only makes sense to balance the game around the combat itself, rather than mixing in any sort of secondary objectives to throw it off.

Diferent game modes, diferent builds.
I think its not that big problem. You cant win the whole game with one build
The problem is there professions without place in certain game modes

So I what I’m reading is that condi is the better choice for small group roaming or soloQ/hotjoin, basically any small group solo/PUG play, and power is the only choice for zergs(everyone knows that of course) and “high-level” pvp/coordinated team play.

Another way of putting this is that, aside from zerg wvw play, if you are a casual PvP player condi will be the best choice and if you are hard core/high-level power will. This seems likes a problem for a game that is clearly very geared toward casual players (like myself).

I don’t care about “high-level” play, I just want to jump on the game after work and have fun. Of course it’s fun to be good, so I try, but to me condi is not face roll (I’m not talking PU mesmer etc.) There are condi builds that take skill to play, and there is strategy and timing to those as well, and I find them fun, so I don’t think it’s some kind of huge problem for the game, but condi shouldn’t have the clear advantage over power that I think it does.

I still like power builds because off it’s fun to outplay your opponent with timing and landing that huge in your face burst (say kittenter mes) is pretty awesome. This thread explains a lot, in that the weaknesses of power builds go away in organized play, but if you are just going to play solo/PUG you are going to feel them more. Since I think the majority of players are solo/PUG that is why you see the huge QQ about condi.

This is good info though, so if/when I do want to do serious tPvP I know to not roll in there as condi and get yelled at :P. In the meantime I guess I’ll focus on making ppl cry with condi builds.

@MSFone
I don’t inherently get the “condi is ezmode”-argument either (and mind you, I play a power build). If my attack causes 3000 damage, it causes 3000 damage. If it happens to take 6s to do it that’s a downside in my mind, since it can be cleansed away. Ofc in return it has a psychological advantage and circumvents armour.

But anyhow, damage is damage. Per skill use.

And yes, generally 1v1 and hotjoin condi is strong, once it gets more experienced or you head into any kind of non-solo WvW you want to look into power because it’s stackable.

McWolfy.5924:

Diferent game modes, diferent builds.
I think its not that big problem. You cant win the whole game with one build
The problem is there professions without place in certain game modes

That’s exactly what I just said. The problem isn’t that different builds are required for different game modes. It’s that that key fact is completely neglected in the balance process for this game, which is why you have skills, builds, and classes that are really strong in sPvP and completely useless anywhere else, or vice versa.

Black Box.9312:

That’s exactly what I just said. The problem isn’t that different builds are required for different game modes. It’s that that key fact is completely neglected in the balance process for this game, which is why you have skills, builds, and classes that are really strong in sPvP and completely useless anywhere else, or vice versa.

Although a compounding issue would be that WvW requires a very different balance approach. Not just a different focus on skills, balance of scaling and balance of need are much more important. For example in sPvP, class should ideally not matter, right?
Well in WvW, you want class to matter to the point where any even somewhat medium-sized group will want all classes. This ensures that all potential abilities are always present on both sides of a fight.

So now there’s a base conflict: One PvP-mode needs classes to make a very functional difference, the other wants them to ideally only matter in graphics and nothing else.

MSFone.3026:

So I what I’m reading is that condi is the better choice for small group roaming or soloQ/hotjoin, basically any small group solo/PUG play, and power is the only choice for zergs(everyone knows that of course) and “high-level” pvp/coordinated team play.

I run DPS builds, several classes, but I main a roaming condi necro and I’ve played for 3 different EU servers in different tiers.

I would say less than half of my opponents are condi builds. This makes it hard for me to believe in the so-called condi meta. I hope the numbers can be encouraging for you since they show power builds can be viable for roaming. Happy hunting.

I’ve also noticed some opponents being prepared / aware of conditions, while others melt. Sure… some classes have a harder time with conditions (Holes and Roles, Ready Up June 13), but I can still see a clear difference.

Currently I read complaints about Dire, Perplexity and Condition food. You can remove all of them, but I have a hard time believing that will save the melters or drastically change anything.

Regarding DoT builds having more access to defense compared to burst builds… well… I don’t find that surprising. Please remember the lack of a Berserker equivalent for condition builds. I wouldn’t mind building more aggressively, but I can’t.

Regarding anything but burst builds being easy… I’ve heard people praise burst builds for dungeons. They say quick kills are easier since it requires less active defense.

Because people aren’t good enough to just run a cele engi zerg.

In PvP condis are actually quite unpopular in a lot of teams.

In WvW, condis are broke by default simply because of the food and stat differences.

Ostricheggs.3742:

In PvP condis are actually quite unpopular in a lot of teams.

In WvW, condis are broke by default simply because of the food and stat differences.

You mean in a very minor subsection of WvW. Because even small scale single group battle makes condi irrelevant in WvW. Unlike PvP, WvW groups will generally be in close proximity of one another so that AoE skills with cleanses land, where they do not in PvP as regularly.

Conditions are not broken in the least in WvW, with or with out food. They may be on the over powered side, and only specifically in the situation 1v1, 1v2, and 2v2 roaming in WvW. Any more then that and they are fine.

Ostricheggs.3742:

In PvP condis are actually quite unpopular in a lot of teams.

In WvW, condis are broke by default simply because of the food and stat differences.

But is that unpopularity the result of conditions being underpowered in sPvP, not fitting in the team concept of things (which i guess has to do with it being OP/UP) or just people don’t find it as fun to play?

Carighan.6758:

That reasoning coupled with the initial advantage classes like Warriors, Rangers and Guardians have with newcomers might explain why Mesmers are so rare. We’re far from weak though, and well, not really the point of the thread. This isn’t about Mesmer or Thief or whatever at all. Except maybe Guardian, all classes can viably compare a condition and a power build, usually multiple.
In all such situations, the condition build falls apart outside of smallest-scale encounters, while power is useful across the board. There’s very little reason to play condition as a result, which also shows in the builds used.

The only reason you don’t see more Mesmer and Thieves in sPvP is due to game type.

Go roam in WvW, at least 60% of what you run into will be Thieves. Then 35% is split between Mesmers and Engineers. That last 5% is the rest. (numbers are personal results). That should give you a good idea of the class disparity between the given professions in this game.

The only reason why power builds are used in WvW is for the blob action. As when you stack Guardians and Elementlists there are far to many condition cleanses between the two that you will not be killing anything with conditions. Your only hope is to try and out power their healing, which can be accomplished with 40+ people pressing 1 with power builds.

Why are Thieves and Mesmer not over represented in blobs? Thieves have no reliable way to cleave at range (while achieving respectable dps). Mesmers are plentiful in blobs but are sub-par compared to Elementlist DPS. Warriors are used solely for the CC they can provide. You might find a couple of power Necromancers as they are face roll easy when they have their Lich Form. Rangers are less common, because again Elementlist are the kings of AoE dps no question. Engineers are seen but again Elementlist. So forth and so on.

Thieves and Mesmers are the hands down best two professions for PvP. It is due to game types in Guild Wars 2 they don’t get more play. The minute a death match style is made in the form of 2v2 or 3v3 that is all there will be in those aside from the occasional death wish guy.

:On topic:

Power over conditions for blobs because of stackable cleanses. Elementalist, Guardian, or Warrior for blob due to group synergy (also the occasional Engineer). Solo play Mesmer, Thieves, or Engineer.

Vanthian.9267:

Carighan.6758:

That reasoning coupled with the initial advantage classes like Warriors, Rangers and Guardians have with newcomers might explain why Mesmers are so rare. We’re far from weak though, and well, not really the point of the thread. This isn’t about Mesmer or Thief or whatever at all. Except maybe Guardian, all classes can viably compare a condition and a power build, usually multiple.
In all such situations, the condition build falls apart outside of smallest-scale encounters, while power is useful across the board. There’s very little reason to play condition as a result, which also shows in the builds used.

The only reason you don’t see more Mesmer and Thieves in sPvP is due to game type.

Go roam in WvW, at least 60% of what you run into will be Thieves. Then 35% is split between Mesmers and Engineers. That last 5% is the rest. (numbers are personal results). That should give you a good idea of the class disparity between the given professions in this game.

The only reason why power builds are used in WvW is for the blob action. As when you stack Guardians and Elementlists there are far to many condition cleanses between the two that you will not be killing anything with conditions. Your only hope is to try and out power their healing, which can be accomplished with 40+ people pressing 1 with power builds.

Why are Thieves and Mesmer not over represented in blobs? Thieves have no reliable way to cleave at range (while achieving respectable dps). Mesmers are plentiful in blobs but are sub-par compared to Elementlist DPS. Warriors are used solely for the CC they can provide. You might find a couple of power Necromancers as they are face roll easy when they have their Lich Form. Rangers are less common, because again Elementlist are the kings of AoE dps no question. Engineers are seen but again Elementlist. So forth and so on.

Thieves and Mesmers are the hands down best two professions for PvP. It is due to game types in Guild Wars 2 they don’t get more play. The minute a death match style is made in the form of 2v2 or 3v3 that is all there will be in those aside from the occasional death wish guy.

:On topic:

Power over conditions for blobs because of stackable cleanses. Elementalist, Guardian, or Warrior for blob due to group synergy (also the occasional Engineer). Solo play Mesmer, Thieves, or Engineer.

There are already regular 2 v. 2 tourneys and Mesmers aren’t that popular.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Conditions are not broken in the least in WvW, with or with out food. They may be on the over powered side, and only specifically in the situation 1v1, 1v2, and 2v2 roaming in WvW. Any more then that and they are fine.

1. condition builds are broken in wvw in multiple different ways, food included; this is something that has long been agreed upon by most everyone. if you need evidence look at the things that make conditions ridiculous in wvw such as dire gear and take note of their deliberate absence in spvp
2. if they’re “on the over powered side” “with or without food” in 1v1/1v2/2v2 situations in wvw that automatically makes them overpowered in spvp as well, as the large majority of combat that takes place in spvp is going to be these kinds of situations, outside of the considerably less common teamfight scenarios in which they do just fine and are far from underwhelming in. additionally, the nature of the conquest game mode/spvp further gives condition specs an upperhand: it’s a lot easier to hit people with aoe that has a limit of 5 people when the teams are limited to 5 players and they have to stand in a small area to win.
3. power does not magically become unstoppable and conditions completely unusable in large even numbered fights. there are aoe support-counters to power as well: regen, aoe heals, aoe stealth, aoe protection/aegis, etc.. in fact, conditions can counter most support short of massive condi cleanses through poison, confusion, chill, and fear, not to mention most condition specs also have access to CC as well, engie for example having multiple sources. the only way i see people struggling with conditions in group fights is if they run into a 20 man zerg like an idiot and expect to live.

You’re combining sentences, there, Sinject.

1. “1. condition builds are broken in wvw in multiple different ways, food included; this is something that has long been agreed upon by most everyone” Hardly. For as many people that complain conditions are OP anywhere, there are just as many that actually know they are not. Also, take a look at all the things that make power builds ridiculous and see how many of those aren’t in PvP. Food, stat inflation, and runesets/sigils that aren’t available in PvP litter all types of WvW builds. This isn’t condition-specific. This is the fact that the game’s PvP is not balanced around WvW.

2. They are not “on the overpowered side with or without food”. This is where you took one bit from one sentence, another from a second sentence, and fail by presenting them as one complete thought. With the stat inflation from ascended gear, borderland’s bloodlust, and guard leech stacks, the mix-and-match nature of equipment, as well as food boosters (such as tuning crystals, which have no defensive counterpart) and rune/sigil types not available in PvP, saying something is overpowered in WvW has so little bearing on PvP as to be almost meaningless.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

You’re combining sentences, there, Sinject.

“For as many people that complain conditions are OP anywhere, there are just as many that actually know they are not.”
ok then, prove these people that are supposedly equal in number exist and are not a minority composed almost solely of people defending conditions because they use them.

“Also, take a look at all the things that make power builds ridiculous and see how many of those aren’t in PvP. Food, stat inflation, and runesets/sigils that aren’t available in PvP litter all types of WvW builds”
what are you even talking about
beserker’s: in pvp
soldier’s: in pvp
cavalier’s: in pvp
knight’s: in pvp
valkyrie’s: in pvp

name one runeset, sigil, or prefix power builds use in wvw to the same effect as dire gear or perplexity runes that isn’t in spvp. oh wait you can’t because there isn’t any.

food isn’t balanced for either power or condi and i never said it was. condi food is just nastier than power food. also the additional stat inflation from say applied strength and fortitude are pretty much made up for in spvp with amulets giving higher base stats than pve full gear.

“They are not “on the overpowered side with or without food”. This is where you took one bit from one sentence, another from a second sentence, and fail by presenting them as one complete thought"
i quoted it directly and the context is clearly apparent, im using his words to describe what he was talking about to prove a point. you then go on to further go off topic about stat increasing items in wvw and completely exaggerate their impact.

“saying something is overpowered in WvW has so little bearing on PvP as to be almost meaningless.”
again the supposed stat imbalances are not anything radical at all, people have more hp but they also hit harder.
i also tend to find that a 1v1 or 2v2 is a 1v1 or 2v2 whether im in wvw or spvp

Try looking around at these threads and specifically at the names on each side. I’m sorry you have a hatred against conditions that clouds your reasoning ability, but if you look, it’s the same few people complaining about them each time and a roughly equal number saying that the only fault with conditions as-is is the stack limit for PvE.

Gear that’s not available in PvP: Assassin’s. Mix it with Berserker in the right proportions for even higher damage than pure Zerker. The mix-and-match ability that you have in PvE and lack in PvP can be used quite well to maximize effectiveness.

And no, due to stats multiplying each other’s effectiveness (specifically Power, Precision, Ferocity multiplying far better than Vitality and Toughness) , plus the existance of sharpening stones/tuning crystals (which have no defensive counterpart) and higher weapon damage (Ascended), these all factor together to make offense explode in WvW compared to defense.

Plus, once again, you’re wrong about the PvP amulets giving higher stats. A full set of Exotic Carrion gear gives 1002 condition damage, 698 Vitality, and 698 Power. PvP Carrion Amulet gives 922 Condition Damage, 643 Vitality, and 643 Power.

You took one phrase from one sentence, placed it in front of a phrase from a prior sentence, and acted like they were one continuous thought and now you’re claiming you also did a direct quote while doing that. Clearly you are a master debater…

sinject.4607:

3. power does not magically become unstoppable and conditions completely unusable in large even numbered fights. there are aoe support-counters to power as well: regen, aoe heals, aoe stealth, aoe protection/aegis, etc.. in fact, conditions can counter most support short of massive condi cleanses through poison, confusion, chill, and fear, not to mention most condition specs also have access to CC as well, engie for example having multiple sources. the only way i see people struggling with conditions in group fights is if they run into a 20 man zerg like an idiot and expect to live.

Interestingly what you say here only serves to illustrate why conditions are so terrible in WvW:

• All of these “counters” work against incoming condition damage as well.
• Support-effects (Poison, Chill, Fear, Immo) are applied by power users just the same. Do you really think players running group/zerg fights don’t know to poison to force cleansing to heal? Really? :P
• Cleanses don’t work against power attacks.
• Immunity-moves (block/dodge/invulnerability) aren’t group-based. They don’t multiple like cleanses do.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Try looking around at these threads and specifically at the names on each side. I’m sorry you have a hatred against conditions that clouds your reasoning ability, but if you look, it’s the same few people complaining about them each time and a roughly equal number saying that the only fault with conditions as-is is the stack limit for PvE.

It wouldn’t surprise me if these players happen to be very active WvW solo roamers. By chance. The group probably overlaps 75%++.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Try looking around at these threads and specifically at the names on each side. I’m sorry you have a hatred against conditions that clouds your reasoning ability, but if you look, it’s the same few people complaining about them each time and a roughly equal number saying that the only fault with conditions as-is is the stack limit for PvE.

Gear that’s not available in PvP: Assassin’s. Mix it with Berserker in the right proportions for even higher damage than pure Zerker. The mix-and-match ability that you have in PvE and lack in PvP can be used quite well to maximize effectiveness.

And no, due to stats multiplying each other’s effectiveness (specifically Power, Precision, Ferocity multiplying far better than Vitality and Toughness) , plus the existance of sharpening stones/tuning crystals (which have no defensive counterpart) and higher weapon damage (Ascended), these all factor together to make offense explode in WvW compared to defense.

Plus, once again, you’re wrong about the PvP amulets giving higher stats. A full set of Exotic Carrion gear gives 1002 condition damage, 698 Vitality, and 698 Power. PvP Carrion Amulet gives 922 Condition Damage, 643 Vitality, and 643 Power.

You took one phrase from one sentence, placed it in front of a phrase from a prior sentence, and acted like they were one continuous thought and now you’re claiming you also did a direct quote while doing that. Clearly you are a master debater…

give me the math behind the supposed min/maxing of beserker’s and assassin’s. you’re literally the only person i’ve ever heard suggest that doing that is better than full beserker, or even worthwhile for that matter. at any rate dire can’t be compared to anything on power and you know that, you’re just scrambling to find something to respond with at this point- which is why you’re nitpicking and making strawman arguments rather than actually going over each point.

Carighan.6758:

Interestingly what you say here only serves to illustrate why conditions are so terrible in WvW:

• All of these “counters” work against incoming condition damage as well.
• Support-effects (Poison, Chill, Fear, Immo) are applied by power users just the same. Do you really think players running group/zerg fights don’t know to poison to force cleansing to heal? Really? :P
• Cleanses don’t work against power attacks.
• Immunity-moves (block/dodge/invulnerability) aren’t group-based. They don’t multiple like cleanses do.

• yep that’s the point. also i didnt know protection worked against conditions, when was this update made?
• yes but they commonly have far less access to it, are able to do much less damage with them, and cannot apply them for nearly as long.
• so you have one thing that affects conditions and not power and suddenly conditions have too many counters
• is this going anywhere or are you just kind of stating facts now

@sinject
The point is that conditions become a complete non-issue in any form of larger content. This isn’t exactly up to debate either,, it’s an observation. If this is based on players not understanding that they’re actually quite strong, sure, a valid proposal. But I would have thought that 2y in someone would have noticed that zergs should switch to full-conditions to plow the enemy power assist train zergs.

Conditions work well below their targeted balance. They scale badly, in that regard. They’re probably aimed at ~5 players fighting ~5 players. Below that they can be too strong, above that they feel meaningless compared to the same character running a power setup.

So basically what conditions need is a nerf in WvW roaming and a substantial buff in high-end sPvP (too low pressure), WvW and PvE. My whole point in this regard is that players complaining about condition builds merely disregard the majority of the game for the one mode in which they just got killed.

Do I like all assist trains being based on power? Ofc not. Boring as hell if everyone runs the same build. Although I doubt /assist will ever be anything else, the whole idea is to instant-burst a designated shared target to death. Or a small area, in our case.
I don’t like roaming being based on condition builds either, though in that context I do question the severity of the problem. Roaming to me seems an exercise in artificial armistice and organized jousting contests. Any player out to win will simply bring 2-3 friends and farm the solo players one by one. It relies on everyone agreeing that 1v1 should be their designated game format, even if ANet’s designed game doesn’t really support it.

So while valid a complaint, I can’t see the priority of it. If we had an “official” 1v1 mode, I could certainly see the issue. Or if the combat engine didn’t constantly want you to group up and instead rewarded solo play. But it doesn’t.

Let’s say
Condition has low skill floor, if skill and effectiveness is lv1 – lv10
Condition would only need to be lv2 to do anything, specially against noob, it’s super effective

Power would need at least lv 4 to do anything,

but when skill level gets higher, Power will have higher effectiveness, like bursting and insta kill and stuff, and power’s damage are instantly applied.

So at higher level, Power would have lv10 while condition would only have lv8

sinject.4607:

1. condition builds are broken in wvw in multiple different ways

I disagree.

Most of my opponents handle conditions reasonably well. Some few melt, and you must be one in that minority. I’m sorry, but every build doesn’t shine everywhere. Removing Food, Dire or Perplexity will not save the melters. I can probably skip brushing my teeth and kill them with my breath.

I don’t run what you might call a cheese build, I’ve cut down on my condi transfers because I don’t believe in the condi meta, it happens I forget food and the melters still melt.

Besides… WvW is unpredictable, and the notion of balancing the fights are contradictory to me. I like that chaos and I’ll go elsewhere for predictable fights.

sinject.4607:

1. condition builds are broken in wvw in multiple different ways

Prove it. Your making a definitive claim while offering absolutely no facts or math to back up your claim. yet there are 17 threads full of posters who have linked videos and done mathematical breakdowns that disprove your claim.

sinject.4607:

this is something that has long been agreed upon by most everyone.

Prove it as well. Personally, I feel like this is one of the worst toxicities on the entire forums community here, is when poster claim to speak for the entire populaiton and claim to know what everyone feels across all 76+ servers.

sinject.4607:

if they’re “on the over powered side” “with or without food” in 1v1/1v2/2v2 situations in wvw that automatically makes them overpowered in spvp as well, as the large majority of combat that takes place in spvp is going to be these kinds of situations, outside of the considerably less common teamfight scenarios in which they do just fine and are far from underwhelming in. additionally, the nature of the conquest game mode/spvp further gives condition specs an upperhand: it’s a lot easier to hit people with aoe that has a limit of 5 people when the teams are limited to 5 players and they have to stand in a small area to win.

For starters, all of the same runes in the rest of the game are not in PvP. Nor are all of the sigils. Nor do PvP amulets offer near the same stat level achieved in the other game modes.

sinject.4607:

power does not magically become unstoppable and conditions completely unusable in large even numbered fights.

No one said Power becomes unstoppable. We said conditions become near useless. And indeed they do.

sinject.4607:

there are aoe support-counters to power as well: regen, aoe heals, aoe stealth, aoe protection/aegis, etc..

Umm, I hate to burst your bubble here, but you do realize everything you mentioned with the sole exception of protection, negates as much condition damage as it does direct damage. It is not rocket science to comprehend that aegis blocks both direct damage and condition application.

sinject.4607:

in fact, conditions can counter most support short of massive condi cleanses

Your making our point for us. Because massive condi cleanses is exactly what you get in large scale battles.

dancingmonkey.4902:

sinject.4607:

1. condition builds are broken in wvw in multiple different ways

Prove it. Your making a definitive claim while offering absolutely no facts or math to back up your claim. yet there are 17 threads full of posters who have linked videos and done mathematical breakdowns that disprove your claim.

sinject.4607:

this is something that has long been agreed upon by most everyone.

Prove it as well. Personally, I feel like this is one of the worst toxicities on the entire forums community here, is when poster claim to speak for the entire populaiton and claim to know what everyone feels across all 76+ servers.

Why are you always demanding proof from others, when you don’t even use evidence to support your own assertions?

Black Box.9312:

Why are you always demanding proof from others, when you don’t even use evidence to support your own assertions?

Well thanks for asking. Although I have already answered this, I do not mind assiting you my friend. For starters, it is because they are making the initial claims with nothing to support them. Secondly, I, and others, have posted the proof on the other 27 threads on this topic. If you guys wish to continue along with the inaccurate knowledge that is fine with me. If you do not, you will scroll back a page or two and read it.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Black Box.9312:

Why are you always demanding proof from others, when you don’t even use evidence to support your own assertions?

Well thanks for asking. Although I have already answered this, I do not mind assiting you my friend. For starters, it is because they are making the initial claims with nothing to support them. Secondly, I, and others, have posted the proof on the other 27 threads on this topic. If you guys wish to continue along with the inaccurate knowledge that is fine with me. If you do not, you will scroll back a page or two and read it.

They are listing off their personal experiences. Coming in here and saying “You’re an idiot and you’re wrong” doesn’t win you the argument and just makes you look like an kitten .

Black Box.9312:

They are listing off their personal experiences. Coming in here and saying “You’re an idiot and you’re wrong” doesn’t win you the argument and just makes you look like an kitten .

Let me make sure I am understanding what your saying. Posters have popped in here, and made claims and accusations based on their perceptions from their experiences. They go out of their way to mention a single fact. No mention of the profession they were on. No mention of there build. Yet you feel this empowers you to intentionally and rudely claim someone said something they did not?

Would you mind quoted the post in which those words were used?

I have to ask you, were all of the previous threads over the last 3 months not good enough for you? Did you even spend any time looking through them? We had 2-3 posters did damage break downs of both power and condi builds. We had multiple posters get together and do comparison videos.

lets see, on one hand we have random posters making claims, who avoid direct questions, and refuse to mention any actual facts or stats. On the other we have a community who has had this discussion multiple times. Done test. Listed the results. Video recorded it. Posted their finding here.

You can paraphrase, insult, and put words in other peoples mouth all you like. It will in no way, ever, make your untested perception convince those who actually put it to test both on paper and in the field.

No one called you or any one else an idiot. They simply informed you that they felt you were wrong, and stated why.