Guild Wars 2

Mesmer is fine. Every class does not need to be good at everything. Mesmer is already the best 1v1 class. I think that is fine, and it should come at the expense of team support.

In other words, play your Mesmer to its strengths. If you want something more team oriented, try a different class.

style.6173:

Mesmer is fine. Every class does not need to be good at everything. Mesmer is already the best 1v1 class. I think that is fine, and it should come at the expense of team support.

In other words, play your Mesmer to its strengths. If you want something more team oriented, try a different class.

well the problem is, mesmer used to be very strong in wvw and group play with glamour and immortal mes build. even phantasm builds were better. all the nerfs have brough us down to the bottom. so for the ones saying wer were designed as a 1v1 duelist class, that is not true.
thats why wvw mes all turned to glamour and immortal mes as it was our way to fight in wvw.
anet did not shave those builds, anet eliminated them. now all we get is 1v1 stuff which we dont need. yes we sure are good in duels, but anet also stated that they dont want the typical dps,healer,tank design, that every class can contribute in every game mode.
if mes was supposed to be a duelist class only why is this a light armor class and now medium then?
why have the mes be good in wvw large scale fights and then nerf it to the ground of the ground leaving us as ai spamming stupid veilbots? anet only sees the chees spvp builds. anet ignores us. thats why i want anet to completely nerf mes into the ground of the grounds, so we are bad in 1v1 and die in 1 hit, so maybe we can finally work our way back into a real light armor class that can contribute in a large scale fight.

reroll. so all u want is seeing GWEN then and remove all classes then. sure . go walk your stupid golems, go take those walls down as im sick of hiding in a keep, go fight the enemy without veil and tw!

selan.8354:

reroll. so all u want is seeing GWEN then and remove all classes then. sure . go walk your stupid golems, go take those walls down as im sick of hiding in a keep, go fight the enemy without veil and tw!

^- This every mesmer should just reroll. I got over 1k hours on my mesmer (80% of my gametime) and with every patch it gets worse and worse and worse. We cant even 1v1 anymore after the vigor nerf and the DE nerfs. We cant do condis half as good as Necro Ele or Ingi, We dont have any burst left and yeah we got the veil thing going for us wich is nice. So everyone just reroll a Warrior.

Shinja.5642:

selan.8354:

reroll. so all u want is seeing GWEN then and remove all classes then. sure . go walk your stupid golems, go take those walls down as im sick of hiding in a keep, go fight the enemy without veil and tw!

^- This every mesmer should just reroll. I got over 1k hours on my mesmer (80% of my gametime) and with every patch it gets worse and worse and worse. We cant even 1v1 anymore after the vigor nerf and the DE nerfs. We cant do condis half as good as Necro Ele or Ingi, We dont have any burst left and yeah we got the veil thing going for us wich is nice. So everyone just reroll a Warrior.

yep seriously we should all go on strike. anet clearly has no clue about mesmers and only sees us through warrior eyes in spvp. they ignore that we suffer for months now in wvw. i played mes for more than 3k hours. who need mesmers? lets just all reroll as a class from the GWEN train.

Im playing mesmer since summer so I didnt have the chance to play the great confusion glamour mesmer. But back then I was using the retaliation/reflection build and it worked because the meta was different.

Now there are no projectiles and I changed to shatter. Im ok with getting veil, null field and time warp for my guild but thats pretty much all I can do for them. Without taking these utilities I think Id make my mesmer even more useless. Illusions die so fast that I can usually shatter 1 illusion + myself with trait. And to be able to do so and not die, I need tank equip so my damage output is just too low.

Neftex.7594:

Im playing mesmer since summer so I didnt have the chance to play the great confusion glamour mesmer. But back then I was using the retaliation/reflection build and it worked because the meta was different.

Now there are no projectiles and I changed to shatter. Im ok with getting veil, null field and time warp for my guild but thats pretty much all I can do for them. Without taking these utilities I think Id make my mesmer even more useless. Illusions die so fast that I can usually shatter 1 illusion + myself with trait. And to be able to do so and not die, I need tank equip so my damage output is just too low.

agree with u. people see the spvp mes and think we are super amazing, but in wvw we are bottom feeders with no way out because even anet only ses the spvp mesmer. maybe once the mesmer in spvp has been nerfed to the ground we will see some buffs in wvw.

They key problems lies in this:
Mesmer is too AI dependent.

Most mesmer builds do large part of their damage via phantasms or shattering the illusions.

Shatter is the least AI dependent, at least for me. In an ideal case you hide in stealth, close in and do a Mirror Blade -> Dodge -> F1 for a quick damage rotation. You spawn AI, sure, but you don’t rely on them in any way other than being there.

If ArenaNet really wants to try getting rid of AI builds, nerfing Shatter into the ground is the last thing they should be doing. And yet that’s exactly what they do.

maybe once the mesmer in spvp has been nerfed to the ground we will see some buffs in wvw.

Obviously no, because these buffs (if they ever hapen) will be sPvP only.

Won a 2v5 with mesmer and thief in an enemy controled garrison to day after the blob left, the incoming reinforcements then got kited for abot 3 min until the buff timed out then the mesmer ported our zerg in.

Mesmers like thieves are TOOTAAALLY usless in wvw and need serious buffs.

And to the genius who asked for aoe damage on GS 1, it already does aoe damage everyone who stands in the purple beam gets hit so if you target someone in row three the guys in row one and two also get hit, clueless is clueless, use your brain even while spamming 1 it helps a lot.

@ Bazzoong
Can you read before you go total forum warrior?
I said balance, not buff. Just the fact that you won 2v5+ a buffed lord seems to me already a reason why mesmer is totally inbalanced. No class should be that strong in roaming and have nothing else but that in game. I get bored when fighting 1v2/3 now, it’s just getting too easy sometimes.

And no, GS 1 spam is totally not reliable. Whereas it doesnt fit our support role, it does kittenty damage, no support such as boon removal at all, gives you kittenload of retal damage and the damage is way too spread to rely on it. WvW Raiding is about hitting the same 5 targets constantly, if you spread your damage you’ll most likely fail in a 25v60.

Iavra.8510:

If ArenaNet really wants to try getting rid of AI builds, nerfing Shatter into the ground is the last thing they should be doing. And yet that’s exactly what they do.

Mate I’ve been screaming these things for months and everyone called me crazy. Now see the mesmer forums. ‘’NO DON’T NERF SHATTER MORE SHATTER USELESS NOW!’’

Bazzoong.7145:

Won a 2v5 with mesmer and thief in an enemy controled garrison to day after the blob left, the incoming reinforcements then got kited for abot 3 min until the buff timed out then the mesmer ported our zerg in.

Mesmers like thieves are TOOTAAALLY usless in wvw and need serious buffs.

And to the genius who asked for aoe damage on GS 1, it already does aoe damage everyone who stands in the purple beam gets hit so if you target someone in row three the guys in row one and two also get hit, clueless is clueless, use your brain even while spamming 1 it helps a lot.

so u are talking about roaming again then. well roaming is like spvp where we are strong. this thread if u actually bothered to read it, is about the wvw large scale fights which is the main part of wvw!mesmer needs buffs in group play, same with rabgers and thieves as all 3 of us dont have much to contribute. if mes didnt have veil, no one would need us

I fully agree that Mesmers definitely needs to become more viable in large scale fights. Unfortunately it seems ANet has a hard time seeing anything beyond the sPvP aspect. Most likely because none of the ‘balance team’ apparently spends any time playing in WvW.

As such can just see the next patch notes:
* Veil – reduced number of uses to 5
* Portal – reduced number of uses to 5

Already phantasms were nerfed at least 3 times so they deal less damage, need LoS and can be prevented from spawning by dodge/block/invul. Vengeful Images was stealth-nerfed to lasting only 5s instead of indefinitely, Shattered Strength nerfed from 3 stacks to 1, 50% nerf to Time Warp, 50% reduction to Confusion, increased cooldown on Portal (from 60s to 90s) and later also reduced number of uses, Illusionists Celerity changed from Adept Minor to Grandmaster Minor (and later back to Master Minor), Glamour nerfs etc.

And this is just an off-the-top-of-my-head list of some of the big nerfs the class has had to endure.

Aveneo.2068:

I fully agree that Mesmers definitely needs to become more viable in large scale fights. Unfortunately it seems ANet has a hard time seeing anything beyond the sPvP aspect. Most likely because none of the ‘balance team’ apparently spends any time playing in WvW.

As such can just see the next patch notes:
* Veil – reduced number of uses to 5
* Portal – reduced number of uses to 5

Already phantasms were nerfed at least 3 times so they deal less damage, need LoS and can be prevented from spawning by dodge/block/invul. Vengeful Images was stealth-nerfed to lasting only 5s instead of indefinitely, Shattered Strength nerfed from 3 stacks to 1, 50% nerf to Time Warp, 50% reduction to Confusion, increased cooldown on Portal (from 60s to 90s) and later also reduced number of uses, Illusionists Celerity changed from Adept Minor to Grandmaster Minor (and later back to Master Minor), Glamour nerfs etc.

And this is just an off-the-top-of-my-head list of some of the big nerfs the class has had to endure.

agree the nerfs were too over the top. in wvw having your main dmg dealer being so limited that the los prevents u most of the time to use it and then goes into full cd is horrible. i cant hit unbuilt oil. i have a hard time to hit anything on the wall, eles hit everything on wall and necros can use deathschrouds to hit ac on wall. we cant do any of that. we are always on cd because of phantasm recharge and so cand keep pressure on the zerg…seriously once the nerf veil, no mesmer will be allowed to join wvw focused guilds

Aveneo.2068:

Already phantasms were nerfed at least 3 times so they deal less damage, need LoS and can be prevented from spawning by dodge/block/invul. Vengeful Images was stealth-nerfed to lasting only 5s instead of indefinitely, Shattered Strength nerfed from 3 stacks to 1, 50% nerf to Time Warp, 50% reduction to Confusion, increased cooldown on Portal (from 60s to 90s) and later also reduced number of uses, Illusionists Celerity changed from Adept Minor to Grandmaster Minor (and later back to Master Minor), Glamour nerfs etc.

And this is just an off-the-top-of-my-head list of some of the big nerfs the class has had to endure.

You can’t prevent a phant from spawning from a dodge/block afaik… blind/invuln yes.

A single blind will stop a multi-hitting phant unlike other multi hit attacks and they also doesn’t cause any reveal… despite phants being considered attacks they don’t always act as if they are. IMO the rules for them should be brought more in line with other attacks and have their damage adjusted for the buffs/nerfs this causes. This is a bit off topic though :P

Aberrant.6749:

Aveneo.2068:

Already phantasms were nerfed at least 3 times so they deal less damage, need LoS and can be prevented from spawning by dodge/block/invul. Vengeful Images was stealth-nerfed to lasting only 5s instead of indefinitely, Shattered Strength nerfed from 3 stacks to 1, 50% nerf to Time Warp, 50% reduction to Confusion, increased cooldown on Portal (from 60s to 90s) and later also reduced number of uses, Illusionists Celerity changed from Adept Minor to Grandmaster Minor (and later back to Master Minor), Glamour nerfs etc.

And this is just an off-the-top-of-my-head list of some of the big nerfs the class has had to endure.

You can’t prevent a phant from spawning from a dodge/block afaik… blind/invuln yes.

A single blind will stop a multi-hitting phant unlike other multi hit attacks and they also doesn’t cause any reveal… despite phants being considered attacks they don’t always act as if they are. IMO the rules for them should be brought more in line with other attacks and have their damage adjusted for the buffs/nerfs this causes. This is a bit off topic though :P

Just managed to find the original patchnotes regarding that nerf and you are correct. Serves me well for trying to recall the main nerfs from memory.

Still, I feel that since launch Mesmers received numerous giant nerfs and instead of using a scalpel when attempting to balance any class (that isn’t a Warrior), the ‘balance team’ seemed to prefer a sledgehammer.

Aberrant.6749:

Aveneo.2068:

Already phantasms were nerfed at least 3 times so they deal less damage, need LoS and can be prevented from spawning by dodge/block/invul. Vengeful Images was stealth-nerfed to lasting only 5s instead of indefinitely, Shattered Strength nerfed from 3 stacks to 1, 50% nerf to Time Warp, 50% reduction to Confusion, increased cooldown on Portal (from 60s to 90s) and later also reduced number of uses, Illusionists Celerity changed from Adept Minor to Grandmaster Minor (and later back to Master Minor), Glamour nerfs etc.

And this is just an off-the-top-of-my-head list of some of the big nerfs the class has had to endure.

You can’t prevent a phant from spawning from a dodge/block afaik… blind/invuln yes.

A single blind will stop a multi-hitting phant unlike other multi hit attacks and they also doesn’t cause any reveal… despite phants being considered attacks they don’t always act as if they are. IMO the rules for them should be brought more in line with other attacks and have their damage adjusted for the buffs/nerfs this causes. This is a bit off topic though :P

yeah u are right the rules for our main dmg dealers are wayy to strict.
lets say earthshaker. they can just jump from right behind the corner in the middle of the enemy while a phantasm around the corner often gets the los,obstructed or out of range and goes into full cooldown.
but phantasms in general are not even our biggest problems. its the lack of stability, the lack of speed, the lack of condi cleanse combined with 0 aoe abilities in a zerg. shattering is not strong enough in a zerg, phantasms get maybe 3 hits and then long sd, then we got the staff with chaos storm, but its still a very weak aoe and most obvious one and the mh sword would require for u to jump in the zerg to deal dmg. afater all the nerfs all we got left is 1v1 stuff.

@BlackDevil, you can build mesmers for support aswell especially for guild zergs (which is what I guess you are aiming at).

Check out the GvG build this guy shows in this vid (I know it needs to be done a bit different now but the basics are the same). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDXWRSKlQec

Mesmers offer a lot of different play styles way more then most other classes and are probably the most balanced of all proffesions in that you have very good builds for a lot of different “roles”.

On your other statement AoE skills are not suppoesd to be used for focus fire, period, they will allways “spread unreliably” if they would not there would be no point in single target attacks.

And on the forum warrior part: I will make a point in answering BS in kind.

A much more pressing matter is to balance rangers for raids. Mesmers are the best backline snipers, at least you have that. And u can run boon and heal support builds. Rangers literally have nothing to offer to a raid

Bazzoong.7145:

@BlackDevil, you can build mesmers for support aswell especially for guild zergs (which is what I guess you are aiming at).

Check out the GvG build this guy shows in this vid (I know it needs to be done a bit different now but the basics are the same). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDXWRSKlQec

Mesmers offer a lot of different play styles way more then most other classes and are probably the most balanced of all proffesions in that you have very good builds for a lot of different “roles”.

One thing is if a build can work, another different is if it’s optimal. From my experience, that build is far from optimal. There’s only 1 video and is from stomping a distracted zerg on a gate (the easiest way to success).
Note he need 8 seconds to generate all the boons and send to his party. By that time, most of enemies are downed. Then, he’s only able to tag 4/5 people of a zerg of ~20 and do you thing it’s good for us to become Restorative Mantras spammers?

I’d like to see this build in an open-world fight, taking a keep or against bigger zergs, where there’s a lot of mobility, lots of pressure on you, no stomping distracted people, things cannot wait to be ready and have to be instant…

PD: And having a lot of play styles doesn’t mean we excel on everything. Ele’s are there kicking at PvE, zergs and roaming with 2/3 builds….

Bazzoong.7145:

@BlackDevil, you can build mesmers for support aswell especially for guild zergs (which is what I guess you are aiming at).

Check out the GvG build this guy shows in this vid (I know it needs to be done a bit different now but the basics are the same). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDXWRSKlQec

Mesmers offer a lot of different play styles way more then most other classes and are probably the most balanced of all proffesions in that you have very good builds for a lot of different “roles”.

On your other statement AoE skills are not suppoesd to be used for focus fire, period, they will allways “spread unreliably” if they would not there would be no point in single target attacks.

And on the forum warrior part: I will make a point in answering BS in kind.

Sorry, vash is a good roamer but he has 0 idea about the whole raid perspective. I actually start to wonder why all roam hero’s with 0 experience on high-end raids even reply in this topic. As much as I love that you guys keep on bumping it you don’t come with viable arguments.

Mesmer got a lot varirity in play style because no build shines above other builds besides PU, which is crap in raids. The rest of the builds are beneath average of what a build should require to increase the raids peformance. The only thing that increases the average is veil. Of course you gonna get a lot viriraty if you’re only bound to 1 or 2 utility’s, but that doesn’t mean those builds are viable.

AoE Skills can be really focussed target. That’s where raids shine above others, because of their focussed damage. Something we, as one of the best (if not the best) 20-35 raid man guilds been working on from day 1.
And yes it always will have some sort of spread, but the less the spread is, the faster you kill enemies. In a 5v5 you also don’t all attack different targets, but the same target. The same goes for Raids, but in a mutiplier of 5-20.

I called it forum warrior because you gave meaningless arguments and used heavy caps-lock. This post was better, since you’re suggesting and comming up with video’s, but roaming =/= raid. That’s why mesmer is so imbalanced in WvW.

mistsim.2748:

A much more pressing matter is to balance rangers for raids. Mesmers are the best backline snipers, at least you have that. And u can run boon and heal support builds. Rangers literally have nothing to offer to a raid

Mesmers are not the best backline snipers. Thieves or warriors are as they got much more mobility to harras the backline and are not forced to run specific utility’s, whereas mesmer are.
Besides, ’’harassing’’ backling is a tactic created from scrub guilds. A guild with 20-25 man focussing on teamwork only will overall always win from a guild that puts 3-4 guys
to focus backline only. Sure you might win 1 or 2 rounds out of 10, but it’s not gonna get you to win from the guild.

pretty much exactly that ^

however i disagree with the last bit somewhat. i will agree that mesmers aren’t the best sniping class (although one of the best lockdown classes via chaotic interruption imho), but the whole backline focus can be done extremely efficiently while doing whats needed for the team, all while serving it’s own metagame inside of a gvg. during raid however i think it’s more or less pointless against skilled players.

I really should not post, but hell….

I start wondering why people even post in the stack more hammer train hero threads….

(insert radom paragraph about how good I am here and how clueless everyone else is)

The hammer/melee trains effectively cancel eachother out, usually the 1st deaths occur at the periphery (you definetly should know that) the most decisive factor is positioning and the ability to create a “local imbalance” you will never do that in the center if the other guys do not make a serious mistake. Just think about where you usually are when you die. (yes I am talking to you)

But you know it all I guess…

Some stuff in this game is way under rated, just because the “hammer and guardian train” is the easiest way to win does not mean everything in the game needs to serve that “cheese” there definately are other options just takes some imagination.

@Bazzoong Do you play raid mesmer in some organised WvW guild? You cant just say its all ok when you have no experience with it. If you do, maybe you can upload some vid to show us your impact in these fights…

Neftex.7594:

@Bazzoong Do you play raid mesmer in some organised WvW guild? You cant just say its all ok when you have no experience with it. If you do, maybe you can upload some vid to show us your impact in these fights…

yeah agree with you. bazzoong clearly does not understand that mesmers(and of course rangers) are not ok at all in wvw. we wanna join the fun of the fight aswell and not jusy veil and then kite around hoping to hit something for a tag. we wann be killers like the GWEN train aswell. every class should be able to have fun in a largescale fight and be able to deal enough dmg to kill in its own way.

I wish people would just stop pointing to shatter builds (either for support or damage) as examples of balance in WvW. Shatter does not work in high end raids, period. As soon as you get any more than 15 vs 15 shatter is no longer viable because clones don’t last long enough to shatter.

For me it would be enough if the balance team left the Chaos Storm/CS bug as it is. For once raid mesmers actually have a GM trait that is worthwhile building around. Perhaps as someone else said tweak it so that it’s 50% condition 25% daze, 25% stun. But finally having some AoE lockdown (that doesn’t depend on shatter which is useless in raid WvW) to go with our utilities has been a breath of fresh air.

I don’t mind not having super high damage if we can bring some lock down on the flip side, but at the moment we get neither

Jorjeis.2169:

Shatter does not work in high end raids, period.

Jorjeis.2169:

I wish people would just stop pointing to shatter builds (either for support or damage) as examples of balance in WvW. Shatter does not work in high end raids, period. As soon as you get any more than 15 vs 15 shatter is no longer viable because clones don’t last long enough to shatter.

For me it would be enough if the balance team left the Chaos Storm/CS bug as it is. For once raid mesmers actually have a GM trait that is worthwhile building around. Perhaps as someone else said tweak it so that it’s 50% condition 25% daze, 25% stun. But finally having some AoE lockdown (that doesn’t depend on shatter which is useless in raid WvW) to go with our utilities has been a breath of fresh air.

I don’t mind not having super high damage if we can bring some lock down on the flip side, but at the moment we get neither

I would rather say it like this: All builds mesmer has aren’t viable for raid. However, shatter is the closest one to being viable in raids. Saying your ‘’clones die too quickly’‘, isn’t an argument to it not being viable. Sure they die too fast, that’s why you should never take X illusions trait in raid builds if you go for shatter.
The more clones you got active the lower your average damage of your mind wrack is. Meaning if you would dodge around as backline with staff or GS equiped, you create clones that will most likely stay alive till you bring them close to the enemy, aka using a shatter skill.
Every clone you got active will reduce your damage by +/- 33%. Meaning if you would have 3 clones active your damage of mind wrack you deal with IP will be reduced by +/- 50%. This damage would only get compensated back if you would hit at least 1 clone out of those 3 clones you had active, which is based on a random chance of survival of your clones. I don’t want traits that are based on random chances to have effect, that’s why I find X- dueling a bad trait for raids when using shatter.

With the upcoming nerfs to Mesmers (Critical Infusion and Deceptive Evasion), Mesmers will be weaker in 1v1 roaming. However, this also makes Mesmers a lot weaker in zerg vs zerg where they were already pitifully weak to begin with.

Xavi.6591:

With the upcoming nerfs to Mesmers (Critical Infusion and Deceptive Evasion), Mesmers will be weaker in 1v1 roaming. However, this also makes Mesmers a lot weaker in zerg vs zerg where they were already pitifully weak to begin with.

Man this sucks… Mes has been my main forever… Good thing I leveled that guard/ele… Maybe if everyone stops playing mesmer…. It will get buffed?

Just in case i geared my thief for condi perplexity. It’s extremely boring and op (not condi thief in general, but perplexity), but since ArenaNet doesn’t want me to play fair builds, i’m doing this now.

/edit: Actually, i’d rather play S/P power, but i’ll first wait how the Pistolwhip change turns out.

jportell.2197:

Man this sucks… Mes has been my main forever… Good thing I leveled that guard/ele… Maybe if everyone stops playing mesmer…. It will get buffed?

Not really. The only Mesmer ‘buffs’ have been in Mantras (which we all know aren’t terribly well-liked, in the first place). Also, that class/race ratio breakdown some months ago had Mesmer as one of the game’s least played classes. If they’ll cop a squat on Mesmers’ collective faces now, one wonders if the class fading into obscurity is a plan on their part. After all, they’d no longer need to worry about balancing a class they’ve had issues doing so for, then. Would they?

Advent.6193:

jportell.2197:

Man this sucks… Mes has been my main forever… Good thing I leveled that guard/ele… Maybe if everyone stops playing mesmer…. It will get buffed?

Not really. The only Mesmer ‘buffs’ have been in Mantras (which we all know aren’t terribly well-liked, in the first place). Also, that class/race ratio breakdown some months ago had Mesmer as one of the game’s least played classes. If they’ll cop a squat on Mesmers’ collective faces now, one wonders if the class fading into obscurity is a plan on their part. After all, they’d no longer need to worry about balancing a class they’ve had issues doing so for, then. Would they?

Well there are several players I know that main only one class. Mesmer… These are people that have bought gems and put work into the game. And each patch it gets nerf after nerf after nerf. I’m seriously considering dropping the game all together. This includes after I have goten a legendary etc. They need to give the mesmer meaningful damage and survival buffs. I’m sick of running up to a warrior as full glass pulling off my entire combo and land it perfectly. Doesn’t even take him to half health. He gets one or two hits off on me and I am down… So clearly they are also glass…

Anet said once “Mesmers are weak to conditions this is because they have clones, blurred frenzy, and great in combat mobility [sic]”
Blurred Frenzy-Jackhammer nerfed
Illusionists celerity-Gigantic nerfbat nerf, then not so small nerfbat reversion.
Well now they are nerfing our clone production, our vigor, and giving us what? Are we getting condi clear traits moved down? Are we getting a reduced cast time on mantras? Are we going to get all those CD increases from a year ago back.

EVERY SINGLE PHANTASM HAS HAD ITS CD INCREASED…. And this was balanced around how DE was then.

Anet stop kittening the mesmer over.

BlackDevil.9268:

I would rather say it like this: All builds mesmer has aren’t viable for raid. However, shatter is the closest one to being viable in raids. Saying your ‘’clones die too quickly’‘, isn’t an argument to it not being viable. Sure they die too fast, that’s why you should never take X illusions trait in raid builds if you go for shatter.
The more clones you got active the lower your average damage of your mind wrack is. Meaning if you would dodge around as backline with staff or GS equiped, you create clones that will most likely stay alive till you bring them close to the enemy, aka using a shatter skill.
Every clone you got active will reduce your damage by +/- 33%. Meaning if you would have 3 clones active your damage of mind wrack you deal with IP will be reduced by +/- 50%. This damage would only get compensated back if you would hit at least 1 clone out of those 3 clones you had active, which is based on a random chance of survival of your clones. I don’t want traits that are based on random chances to have effect, that’s why I find X- dueling a bad trait for raids when using shatter.

I get it, so we’re depending on IP for shatters. The main problem I have with that is we have to invest 30 points just to get our class skill to work. On top of that IP doesn’t work with any of the other shatter based talents (shattered strength, shattered conditions, rending shatter, shattered concentration).

all those nerfs were based on people in spvp crying about the mesmer. whenever a class gets nerfed, they all vent on well we get this nerfed and the mesmer has all those clones……
and yes anet listened to the crys. but now certain core mechanics that did make the mesmer viable in every gamemode,are either bugged, over nerfed or not viable at all anymore.
glamour traits: useless in wvw and spvp now due to overnerf of bb and 50% dmg reduction and bug fix in wvw
immortal mes build: retal nerf destroyed that one
phantasm mes: countless nerfs and bugs, too harsh on los, berserker was bugged for months, now iwarden bugged, now vigor nerf
shatterer: if de nerf gets through, heavy nerf
condi mes: pretty much non eistant in wvw due to confusion nerf,diamond skin and other classes that spam condi cleanse

and meanwhile other classes got multiple buffs, that turned wvw into a cc spam party and mesmers into vwilbots only. no way of dealing consistent pressusre on the enemy zerg, everything is 1v1 based, too much ai…

i really wondering where this class is heading. only being ok in spvp is not balance if u cant contribute viable aoe dmg in wvw.its not mantras we need. the way mantras work is simply not working for me at all.

Just some random ideas:

• Blinding Befuddlement: Increased amount of applied stacks from 1 to 3. Reduced duration from 4 to 3 seconds. It still has the 5s CD on each individual target.

Reason: In addition to the confusion nerf, this trait became useless. One stack of confusion can easily be ignored by any class, on top of that, cleansing became much more efficient since the nerf. Reducing the duration will face some problems that might occur with confusion/condition duration traits/food.

• [New]Elite Skill: Echo: Copy the next skill you’re using. Cooldown: Copied CD + 30s

Reason: Now I know it’s unlikely to get any new traits or skills in the near future, but this skill would solve many issues imo – primarily the lack of AoEs. Giving the Mesmers a second Feedback or Chaos Storm would help alot. In Guild Wars 1, this skill wasn’t an Elite… but I guess it would be overpowered to have two Elites in GW2 (Imagine chaining Moa on someone in 1v1). I’m almost 100% certain that Anet decides to bring this glorious skill back into the game one day or another.

• [New]Grandmaster Trait: Phantasmal Overload: Reduce the Recharge of all Phantasm skills by 15%. Your phantasms will spawn with Aegis (5s) and protection (5s), but lose health over time.

Reason: Phantasms die very quickly in large fights, often not landing their first attack. Giving them lower cooldown and some protection after they spawn will be enough to land their first attack. As a downside and to balance this out in smaller fights, they won’t live very long (only if you decide to heal them somehow). Maybe this trait could replace the Furious Interruption trait that i personally find very unappealing, but that’s just me. By the way, I think more skills should also have a downside. That would open up many more playstyles and improve the risk/reward ratio.

• Veil: Create a wall that grants stealth to you and your allies (2s) and revealed on enemies (2s). (CD: 90s)

Reason: At the moment, the main purpose of this skill is to hide zergs. The stealth duration is short and the cooldown is quite high for having only one purpose. I know that many PU Mesmers are using this skill to maximize their trolling capabilites, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. Temporal Curtain grants swiftness and applies cripple on enemies, it’s just logical that Veil should work in a similar way.
Besides, it would be kitten funny to unveil a zerg.

tetrodoxin.2134:

Just some random ideas:

• Blinding Befuddlement: Increased amount of applied stacks from 1 to 3. Reduced duration from 4 to 3 seconds. It still has the 5s CD on each individual target.

Reason: In addition to the confusion nerf, this trait became useless. One stack of confusion can easily be ignored by any class, on top of that, cleansing became much more efficient since the nerf. Reducing the duration will face some problems that might occur with confusion/condition duration traits/food.

• [New]Elite Skill: Echo: Copy the next skill you’re using. Cooldown: Copied CD + 30s

Reason: Now I know it’s unlikely to get any new traits or skills in the near future, but this skill would solve many issues imo – primarily the lack of AoEs. Giving the Mesmers a second Feedback or Chaos Storm would help alot. In Guild Wars 1, this skill wasn’t an Elite… but I guess it would be overpowered to have two Elites in GW2 (Imagine chaining Moa on someone in 1v1). I’m almost 100% certain that Anet decides to bring this glorious skill back into the game one day or another.

• [New]Grandmaster Trait: Phantasmal Overload: Reduce the Recharge of all Phantasm skills by 15%. Your phantasms will spawn with Aegis (5s) and protection (5s), but lose health over time.

Reason: Phantasms die very quickly in large fights, often not landing their first attack. Giving them lower cooldown and some protection after they spawn will be enough to land their first attack. As a downside and to balance this out in smaller fights, they won’t live very long (only if you decide to heal them somehow). Maybe this trait could replace the Furious Interruption trait that i personally find very unappealing, but that’s just me. By the way, I think more skills should also have a downside. That would open up many more playstyles and improve the risk/reward ratio.

• Veil: Create a wall that grants stealth to you and your allies (2s) and revealed on enemies (2s). (CD: 90s)

Reason: At the moment, the main purpose of this skill is to hide zergs. The stealth duration is short and the cooldown is quite high for having only one purpose. I know that many PU Mesmers are using this skill to maximize their trolling capabilites, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. Temporal Curtain grants swiftness and applies cripple on enemies, it’s just logical that Veil should work in a similar way.
Besides, it would be kitten funny to unveil a zerg.

hmm some interesting ideas here. like the veil one. i doubt though that glamours are gonna be the only way to rescue the wvw raid mesmer. like the elite though, which could lead to qq in spvp though as people could for example spawn 2 pistol phantasms at the same time which is pretty painful vs single target(up to 12k dmg).
i think repalcing mantras with hexes or hex like skills would fix wvw mes in no time as we all would have our unique mesmer aoe.

Well you can do that already with the healing signet, I’ve seen no QQ so far.

But yeah, that’s an aspect which is kinda debatable and needs testing. I believe it wouldnt be that much of a problem, but i may be wrong. An Elite like that would still be very interesting if it would only work with utility skills – considering the fact that two of our most important (WvW) AoEs are utilites.

Mesmers need a Grandmaster trait (likely in Inspiration) that does some aoe direct damage when clones are destroyed. This would solve nearly all problems and make tankier clone-death builds viable in large fights.

i have a 80 on mes and 80 on ele. mesmer its hard to used too. but compare with ele .. i think ele is in a worse place then mes. in pvp i see half of people are using warrior, some theif, engi, mesmer. in alot of time i see no ele at all. and mesmer could do alot in wvw such as hiding in keep and waiting for big zerg drop portal. but u guys are right mesmer needs some aoe damage.

godofcows.2451:

i can see that training bikes want more wheels.

i smell a warrior!
but seriously if u have nothing constructive to say then just leave this discussion alone. this is about wvw mes not spvp mes first off and aldo we are talking about group fights,zergfights and not roaming. so your blind hate is very missplaced here.

@ Bunda
No, that would only promote brainless clone spamming builds. No skill involved in that either just with the old confusion builds.
What we need is the interrupt traits working together with daze/stun skills, such as the mantra of distraction and chaos storm. I still don’t really get why they just fixed the CS-chaos storm bug instead of rethinking the skill/trait and at least make chaos storm so it does daze more often as base. 4/5 dazes of chaos storm would improve the weapon so much. Atm it’s like 1/5 lol. The radius is pretty small, huge CD and the rest of the skills of staff are all really defensive, so I don’t see why chaos storm is so crap.

Then again we should need a blast finisher on greatsword #3, our pull of focus being 0.5 sec cd instead of 1 second and Iwarden having a total rework. It’s forced to be a phantasm though so maybe something like the old iwarden that + pulls people every X seconds during his cast.

Maybe off-hand sword #4 block active effect could also get a small buff with the radius around the bolt or having it’s velocity increased.

selan.8354:

godofcows.2451:

i can see that training bikes want more wheels.

i smell a warrior!
but seriously if u have nothing constructive to say then just leave this discussion alone. this is about wvw mes not spvp mes first off and aldo we are talking about group fights,zergfights and not roaming. so your blind hate is very missplaced here.

wrong, not a warrior. but here’s a cookie. if it sends a message, it’s more constructive than most people think.

1) Anet need to remove the ICD on Blinding Befuddlement. Why was that ICD even introduced knowing that in the same update confusion damage was going to be reduced by 50%? It’s underpowered for a Master trait, even without the ICD.

2) Secondly, Phantasmal Berserker needs an invulnerability window on its initial attack so it does not instantly die during larger fights. I think this is really important.

3) Veil needs an adverse effect for enemies. I think it would be great if its offensive functionality was to apply revealed or a 1 second chill.

4) Last part of Mesmer scepter auto-attack chain (Ether Clone) should be renamed Ether Bomb and deal splash damage to hit up to 3 targets.

5) Mind Stab should be a blast finisher.

6) Mantra of Pain should hit up to 2 more enemies that are within a 180 radius of the Mesmer’s target for 50% of the damage taken by that target.

7) Moa Morph should be a ground-targetable AoE skill that morphs 5 targets…..heh only kidding

@godofcows
Too bad your post isn’t doing both. You’re not constructive nor sending a message. You’re just saying random things and hope people will reply to you so drama will appear.

I’d suggest everyone to not reply to you until you give some constructive critisism.

@ Simonoly
1) I somewhat agree but also don’t. In combination with chaos armor it’s really strong, maybe that strong to go full dire and become a facerolling confusion tank.
2) Hm no, Izerker is already strong in roaming. Buffing it even more would give good raid buffs, but OP roaming buffs. That’s pretty much what should be avoided.
3) Yes, that would give veil really some tricky stuff. Would like something like that with revealed, though that only buffs the things we’re already doing, not the things we should need extra.
4) Well, scepter is a condition weapon. Having aoe spike damage on #1 would be a bit wierd, but possible.
5) I agree
6) Hm.. pretty interesting. That would at least take away the part of us being the most squishy frontline and makes us function as backline.
7) Haha, now that would be funny. moa raids, charge!

BlackDevil.9268:

Too bad your post isn’t doing both. You’re not constructive nor sending a message. You’re just saying random things and hope people will reply to you so drama will appear.

I’d suggest everyone to not reply to you until you give some constructive critisism.

you forgot to quote me. it’s not random. break the sentence down, the meaning is there. 50 says you already know it. now i will go ciao ciao before the great wall of mesmers put the hate on me.

selan.8354:

godofcows.2451:

i can see that training bikes want more wheels.

i smell a warrior!
but seriously if u have nothing constructive to say then just leave this discussion alone. this is about wvw mes not spvp mes first off and aldo we are talking about group fights,zergfights and not roaming. so your blind hate is very missplaced here.

Nah, I smell a Thief, or perhaps even a Ranger. Hmm probably a thief.

BlackDevil.9268:

Then we got blurred frenzy, nerfed like hell. Immune -> evade, giving us up to 14k retaliation damage with a normal shatter combo. This is just way too high!
Not only that but it also got another 2 seconds cooldown increase.

This is a rediculous statement. Retaliation is designed as a mechanic to punish builds that run high burst. So don’t complain when you burst and the target uses retaliation to counter you. That is basically saying, only i should be able to do DPS and evrything else should just die. I call L2P here. If you run a glassy burst build, you cant unload your burst when your target has retal. You should be aware of it and certainly as a mesmer you have enough boon removals to work your way around this. Besides Immune to all Damage was way too op bcs it would also ignore the confusion, another counter to burst specs.

Finally generally speaking Mesmer is not underpowered at all. Ok you might not be able to run full berserker, but this goes for all professions. If you are in a zerk you need some sustain and im sure there are more viable options for you to play.

Cheers!

Prince do you know we are talking about fights 25+ vs 25+? If we go range with GS we cant just focus one target to take it down (phantasms die in seconds + our target gets healed). So if we want to do something we need to focus dmg in one place. So the only way to do that is jump in melee BF + shatter and then get away before we get killed. Thats why the immune vs evade hurts like hell.

Veil being the counter to Veil would be very interesting.
It’d add a lot of mindgames to Mesmer in zergs, when to Veil, when to bait the enemy Veil, etc.

BlackDevil.9268:

@ Bunda
No, that would only promote brainless clone spamming builds. No skill involved in that either just with the old confusion builds.
What we need is the interrupt traits working together with daze/stun skills, such as the mantra of distraction and chaos storm. I still don’t really get why they just fixed the CS-chaos storm bug instead of rethinking the skill/trait and at least make chaos storm so it does daze more often as base. 4/5 dazes of chaos storm would improve the weapon so much. Atm it’s like 1/5 lol. The radius is pretty small, huge CD and the rest of the skills of staff are all really defensive, so I don’t see why chaos storm is so crap.

Then again we should need a blast finisher on greatsword #3, our pull of focus being 0.5 sec cd instead of 1 second and Iwarden having a total rework. It’s forced to be a phantasm though so maybe something like the old iwarden that + pulls people every X seconds during his cast.

Maybe off-hand sword #4 block active effect could also get a small buff with the radius around the bolt or having it’s velocity increased.

@blackdevil
I hear your response, but think about it for a sec. By putting such a trait in Inspiration Grandmaster, you’d be making it difficult to take all the other on-death traits and DE. What it would allow, however, is mesmers to take support traits and still put out a little front-line aoe damage. I agree that it’s a bit mindless, but what front line auto attack isn’t.

I like your thoughts on riposte or counter being aoe, but there is the skill lag problem with them in very large fights, in which auto attacks and dodges are prioritized. Hence my suggestion.

What about this for an Inspiration GM trait: clones on death do a small aoe damage and a small aoe heal? Yes, it would lead to tanky mesmers spamming dodges (which, I may add, were just slightly nerfed), but it will allow mesmers a greater role in front line combat, which by nature is inherently spammy.

@emile, it already hits players through the beams path so it kinda does aoe if you select enemies at the back of the zerg rather than tabbing

@ansau, that would make mantras incredibly OP, i can already easily out heal zerk thieves with mantras the only way they could kill me is if they savvi up and start using interups