Guild Wars 2

Even outside of pvp

Warrior can only stack some bleed and tourment via sword …. without anykittening form of cover.
Bow ? fire and only fire, once again no cover.

Any decent build with the bare minimum cleanse wont ever die to it.

Berserker brings a lot more way to apply condis (just look at that OP mooving fire fields) and primal burst seems all designed to apply condis.

Hes trolling at this point. No point in arguing with a guy that believes warrior had legit meta condi builds lol

Ohoni.6057:

Why would you double down? Its already opitmal dude. Why would you bother giving something that is already optimal , a completely unnesseary revamp?..

If the existing class specs are not optimal, they should not be balanced out by making an event better Elite spec, that’s just lazy power creep. If the existing class specs are not good enough, then they should be improved on their own merits. The Elite spec should just be a new option to play with, balanced against the existing ones.

In that way, the Tempest is an alternate way for dagger players to play, to provide a different experience, since while D/D is fun, they might have gotten a bit bored with it over the years.

You are completely clueless and just trolling at this point, dagger is already fun and in a great state, then why not make scepter or focus more fun and viable!??

They could do that, but there’s no reaosn they had to. You could say the same about any class, why isn’t Chronomancer all about the staff? Why isn’t Dragon Hunter all about the Hammer? They picked a direction and went that way, and it doesn’t have to be the direction you would have chosen, but it’s not a bad direction either.

They gave warriors a new role with berseker and torch by giving them potentially a viable condi build….they never did condi well! So your logic made no sense in that example….

. . .

The Warrior never did Condi well. . .

And I’m supposed to take your word as to how this game works over my own. . .

You dont have to take my word… Go look at all the meta / viablebuilds warrior has had over the years in each game mode… None are condi….

Alternate way to play dagger? No its not. Have you even kittening played tempest!!. Its based around boonshare and crap like that… Thats not an alternate dude…. Its the same kittening thing except its less optimal… No one is going to play a less optimal dagger ele unless they like losing.

And if they buff it to be more optimal than actual DD, it’s OP ….

Warrior has never had a meta condi build in pvp. Try harder next time.

Nobody’s talking about PvP.

You dont have to take my word… Go look at all the meta / viablebuilds warrior has had over the years in each game mode… None are condi….

There have been plenty of Warrior builds based around bleed and fire in the past. They are actually one of the stronger condi classes in the game. How were you guys unaware of this?

Alternate way to play dagger? No its not. Have you even kittening played tempest!!. Its based around boonshare and crap like that… Thats not an alternate dude…. Its the same kittening thing except its less optimal… No one is going to play a less optimal dagger ele unless they like losing.

You work the Overloads into your rotation. In BWE1 they were a bit underpowered, but with BWE2 they’re making some upgrades that might help with that, and they’ll likely continue to improve on it.

And seriously guys, the joke has run its course, I’m getting pretty tired of you guys calling me a troll just because I don’t agree with you. That’s not what a troll is.

Tempest should be made as way to spec out of water/cantrips to allow build diversity.
For that it must offer condi cleanse in a way water does not help.
Also condi builds are weak on ele (exept that d/d has strong burn)
I already sugestet apothekers and witch runes that supports tempest/condition ele whitout getting out of balance on any other class. (because its aura based).
Building tempest around apothekers gear seems to be a good option for the support role without geting out of hands annywhere.
Buffing D/D would be worse then the current lame tempest.

Ohoni.6057:

Warrior has never had a meta condi build in pvp. Try harder next time.

Nobody’s talking about PvP.

You may not be, but that’s your problem. Warrior has never had a meta condi build anywhere else anyway.

Warrior has had a Sinister build using S/S-Longbow but it was used mostly for solo in PvE.

All I’m going to say is Tempest offers nothing new. Burn, healing, regen, might, it’s all things we could already do and do well. I don’t want a new (worse) way to play D/D, I’ll just play good old D/D. How to change Tempest? I’m not sure with it’s current state, I can’t see it bringing anything new to the table.

This is just my opinion which can be taken with a grain of salt because I would have been happy with a REAL auto attack chain and overloads being more like ’Enchantment’s’ to empower you and your attacks.

Ohoni.6057:

Warrior has never had a meta condi build in pvp. Try harder next time.

Nobody’s talking about PvP.

You dont have to take my word… Go look at all the meta / viablebuilds warrior has had over the years in each game mode… None are condi….

There have been plenty of Warrior builds based around bleed and fire in the past. They are actually one of the stronger condi classes in the game. How were you guys unaware of this?

Alternate way to play dagger? No its not. Have you even kittening played tempest!!. Its based around boonshare and crap like that… Thats not an alternate dude…. Its the same kittening thing except its less optimal… No one is going to play a less optimal dagger ele unless they like losing.

You work the Overloads into your rotation. In BWE1 they were a bit underpowered, but with BWE2 they’re making some upgrades that might help with that, and they’ll likely continue to improve on it.

And seriously guys, the joke has run its course, I’m getting pretty tired of you guys calling me a troll just because I don’t agree with you. That’s not what a troll is.

a troll is someone who makes ridiculous bait posts such as “warrior is one of the stronger condi classes in the game”

And no, using an overload KILLS your rotation. Literally, there is no rotation if you overload. That also has absolutely nothing to do with the weapon synergy we were talking about, but since you have no idea what to talk about, you just bring up something totally random and unrelated… good job, you just proved you have no clue about this class or game in general.

a troll is someone who makes ridiculous bait posts such as “warrior is one of the stronger condi classes in the game”

Again, seriously guys, the joke has run its course, I’m getting pretty tired of you guys calling me a troll just because I don’t agree with you. That’s not what a troll is.

And no, using an overload KILLS your rotation. Literally, there is no rotation if you overload.

Bull.

Did you even play in the beta? Start in Air, 42315-Overload-2111, Fire, 43521-Overload-5111, back to Air, repeat. You can also rotate in Earth 2411-Overload-2-switch if you like. Drop to water if you need to heal, but water Overload isn’t useful unless you need to heal a lot of others. Now some have said that the Overloads don’t have enough impact to be worth using, and maybe that’s true, but that’s just a numbers issue.

Ohoni.6057:

a troll is someone who makes ridiculous bait posts such as “warrior is one of the stronger condi classes in the game”

Again, seriously guys, the joke has run its course, I’m getting pretty tired of you guys calling me a troll just because I don’t agree with you. That’s not what a troll is.

And no, using an overload KILLS your rotation. Literally, there is no rotation if you overload.

Bull.

Did you even play in the beta? Start in Air, 42315-Overload-2111, Fire, 43521-Overload-5111, back to Air, repeat. You can also rotate in Earth 2411-Overload-2-switch if you like. Drop to water if you need to heal, but water Overload isn’t useful unless you need to heal a lot of others. Now some have said that the Overloads don’t have enough impact to be worth using, and maybe that’s true, but that’s just a numbers issue.

First off you have to be in the attunement you want for 5 secs,
Than you have to channel it for x more seconds, than once you overloaded that attunement, you now have longer recharge since Overloading increases the recharge of the attunement when swapping to a different attunement…. GG , thats not a freaking rotation when you are STUCK in an attunement.

Also, 1111 IS NOT ROTATION.

SkiTz.4590:

Also, 1111 IS NOT ROTATION.

Even d/d ele will spend some time 111-ing (in air usually) as part of its rotation.

First off you have to be in the attunement you want for 5 secs,
Than you have to channel it for x more seconds, than once you overloaded that attunement, you now have longer recharge since Overloading increases the recharge of the attunement when swapping to a different attunement…. GG , thats not a freaking rotation when you are STUCK in an attunement.

The rotation I listed took all of that into account. The basic element of it is that you burn all the CDs in the attunement you’re already in, then you Overload. This increases the recharge on the current attunement, but you’re allowed to stay in that attunement, so rather than immediately swapping to another, you do stay in the current attunement and you use the abilities that have come back up while you were Overloading. Then you swap to the second attunement, burn all the abilities you have there, which should take enough time to make the Overload active, Overload, and then by the time you make another pass through the abilities that have come off CD while you were Overloading, the first attunement should be off cooldown already.

You can’t swap nearly as fast as you can without the Overloads, but it’s not like they go on 60 second CDs, and it’s not like it kicks you out of your current attunement, so you need to use a different rotation than the default one, but so long as the Overloads are in a place where they’re worth using, the overall design works fine.

Alphard.6529:

SkiTz.4590:

Also, 1111 IS NOT ROTATION.

Even d/d ele will spend some time 111-ing (in air usually) as part of its rotation.

Only after you’ve built up might stacks to make that air auto attack sting a bit.
But once fire comes off cooldown, you are probably going to switch right out of air
You may 111 in air for a few secs at most during a fight. In overload, your stuck for longer than that

Personally, I think the main mistake that has been made is making tempest a melee build – We already have D/D, D/F for that.

We also already have an incredibly strong long range weapon in staff.

I feel that a trick has been missed in making Tempest a S/W design. If they tweaked a few traits, altered overloads to not be PBAoE and gave scepter a rework I think they would have been on to a winner. And more importantly a winner that could have been used in all 3 game modes.

Valentinus.3412:

Personally, I think the main mistake that has been made is making tempest a melee build – We already have D/D, D/F for that.

We also already have an incredibly strong long range weapon in staff.

I feel that a trick has been missed in making Tempest a S/W design. If they tweaked a few traits, altered overloads to not be PBAoE and gave scepter a rework I think they would have been on to a winner. And more importantly a winner that could have been used in all 3 game modes.

All they needed to do is increase the range of scepter to 1200 when equipping a warhorn with a trait, increase the range, damage and speed of warhorn skills to 1200 as well. Then you would have something interesting, that could be used in melee range and long range.

Xillllix.3485:

Valentinus.3412:

Personally, I think the main mistake that has been made is making tempest a melee build – We already have D/D, D/F for that.

We also already have an incredibly strong long range weapon in staff.

I feel that a trick has been missed in making Tempest a S/W design. If they tweaked a few traits, altered overloads to not be PBAoE and gave scepter a rework I think they would have been on to a winner. And more importantly a winner that could have been used in all 3 game modes.

All they needed to do is increase the range of scepter to 1200 when equipping a warhorn with a trait, increase the range, damage and speed of warhorn skills to 1200 as well. Then you would have something interesting, that could be used in melee range and long range.

Yes, this. I don’t understand how warhorn is just supposed to go with dagger. Dagger and Focus already go great with dagger.

All they needed to do is increase the range of scepter to 1200 when equipping a warhorn with a trait, increase the range, damage and speed of warhorn skills to 1200 as well. Then you would have something interesting, that could be used in melee range and long range.

I don’t think either Tempest or Scepter should be standoff range weapons, it’s a skirmish spec. I think those looking for a sniper Ele will have to wait for the next elite (hopefully with pistol).

Ohoni.6057:

All they needed to do is increase the range of scepter to 1200 when equipping a warhorn with a trait, increase the range, damage and speed of warhorn skills to 1200 as well. Then you would have something interesting, that could be used in melee range and long range.

I don’t think either Tempest or Scepter should be standoff range weapons, it’s a skirmish spec. I think those looking for a sniper Ele will have to wait for the next elite (hopefully with pistol).

Both D/D and D/F are already our skirmish specs and they do their jobs WAY better than the current tempest ever could.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Both D/D and D/F are already our skirmish specs and they do their jobs WAY better than the current tempest ever could.

They do their job better because they have a different job. D/D and D/F are small scale skirmishing / 1v1 sets, warhorn is a melee support weapon, more similar to staff than to focus or offhand dagger.

Alphard.6529:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Both D/D and D/F are already our skirmish specs and they do their jobs WAY better than the current tempest ever could.

They do their job better because they have a different job. D/D and D/F are small scale skirmishing / 1v1 sets, warhorn is a melee support weapon, more similar to staff than to focus or offhand dagger.

I don’t think I’d ever take Warhorn over Staff for large groups.

Malchior.5732:

Alphard.6529:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Both D/D and D/F are already our skirmish specs and they do their jobs WAY better than the current tempest ever could.

They do their job better because they have a different job. D/D and D/F are small scale skirmishing / 1v1 sets, warhorn is a melee support weapon, more similar to staff than to focus or offhand dagger.

I don’t think I’d ever take Warhorn over Staff for large groups.

It doesn’t even work for melee support. You’ll just get pulverized when zerg clashes if you don’t mist form out.

Yeah when it clashes i hit obsidian flesh an move to backline as ele or am dead …..

Xillllix.3485:

It doesn’t even work for melee support. You’ll just get pulverized when zerg clashes if you don’t mist form out.

It will work if they improve the traits.

Alphard.6529:

Xillllix.3485:

It doesn’t even work for melee support. You’ll just get pulverized when zerg clashes if you don’t mist form out.

It will work if they improve the traits.

That assumes they make the correct changes to traits, Overloads AND the Warhorn.

Malchior.5732:

Alphard.6529:

Xillllix.3485:

It doesn’t even work for melee support. You’ll just get pulverized when zerg clashes if you don’t mist form out.

It will work if they improve the traits.

That assumes they make the correct changes to traits, Overloads AND the Warhorn.

I still think warhorn fills a very aimed roll that of support. This is how the ele class seems to work the off hand or the 4 and 5 skills on ele’s wepon definds how the class is going to play beyond melee vs ranged. So offhand dagger is mostly a dmg wepon where focese is the def wepon and WH is the support wepon and staff is a mix or the jack of all weapons in some ways staff is the slow wepon.

Some of the skills on WH do need a bit more ranges on them or grond target effects but that less about support and more about its other effect. The WH support abitly are top notc when it comes to boon support as for healing and dmg mitigation support (walls or short block) its lacking.

Both D/D and D/F are already our skirmish specs and they do their jobs WAY better than the current tempest ever could.

I dispute the idea that they do the role better than “Tempest ever could.” It’s possible that they currently work better than Tempest currently does, but I think it is perfectly fair to say that the Tempest’s traits and Overload effects could be improved to make them a worthwhile alternative.

That assumes they make the correct changes to traits, Overloads AND the Warhorn.

And there’s no reason why they can’t do that. Remember what a cluster-kitten the Revenant was in early testing? And that was an entire class, not just a single line.

I’m not saying the Tempest is perfect right now, I’m just saying it’s unreasonable to insist that it can’t be fixed without overhauling the core concepts. Here is the core of the Tempest, as I see it:

• It is a skirmish range class type, intended to be used in skirmish/close range.
• It has Overload abilities that are intended to slow down your attunement rotations, in exchange for strong effects.
• It has shouts that are intended to buff yourself and allies, and pass out auras.
• It has a warhorn that is intended to be a support/boon sharing option.
• it has an Elite that is fairly worthless.

So what should they do to make all of that function well?

• They most importantly need to make sure that the Overloads are worth using, worth slowing your rotation over. Adding an Overload into your rotation should not result in a lower average DPS, although I think it’s fair to say that Overloads will be balanced towards large numbers of opponents rather than single target DPS, which means they will not always be the ideal tactical choice.
• They need to strike the right balance with Overloads between too easy to interrupt and too impossible to interrupt. A Tempest should be able to complete his Overload most of the time, but a concerted amount of counterplay should be able to knock them out of it occasionally.
• It might be good to add mobile combo fields to all Overloads, at the very least as a GM trait option. Have the final burst also count as a blast finisher that interacts with this field.
• They need an entirely new Elite, maybe something similar to Glint’s, where it casts the final burst of all four Overloads at once, and then puts all your elements on (regular) cooldown.
• They need to make sure that the boon-spreading support role is defensible enough to survive at the front lines. This could involve adding more self-defense procs to Warhorn and shouts.
  *I think that the trait lines should be balanced in such a way that one combination of traits is about maximizing your own DPS potential, to make the Tempest a worthwhile solo/selfish build, while another line is about maximizing that support role, making your support to others more effective and making your more survivable in that role. Like making Option A would make it so that abilities that share out boons instead double up those boons on you, and perhaps deal bonus conditions/damage to enemies, while Option B would provide you with things like Aegis, Protection, Stability, etc. for each other player you share out buffs to, so if you use it in large scale groupings you would have tank-level defenses.
  *Of course there are animations here and there that could use some tweaking, like Fire Overload should be more impressive, Air Overload should leave a smoke trail as you do it, and Earth Overload should end with your character crashing to the ground like a meteor, rather than floating down like a balloon.

But all of these are tweaks, doable tweaks, so far as I understand it, and I think the basic core of the class works fine. It may not be the option you guys wanted (personally I wanted a pistoleer), but it’s not an innately terrible concept overall.

Ohoni.6057:

*I think that the trait lines should be balanced in such a way that one combination of traits is about maximizing your own DPS potential, to make the Tempest a worthwhile solo/selfish build, while another line is about maximizing that support role, making your support to others more effective and making your more survivable in that role.

Yeah this is very important. Currently the tempest spec is useless in PvE as the warhorn and the trait line have no damage options. The offensive support is also weaker than the alternatives (e.g. phalanx war), so there’s no reason to take it as an offensive support either.

Argol Vazin.3061:

So our story begins when we are teased with elemental sword skills. The dream was rel, Ele would be getting sword. However the dream didn’t last and warhorn was destined to be our new weapon.

snip

And now, Warriors, a martial class with no real magic. they are given the ability to become a mobile fire field, something that the ele should have being a master of elements. They also get a new utility type exclusive to them. and from what is known. they already synergize with their base class.

snip

I want to shatter two pices of bullkitten you’ve thrown in the debate with your first post:

1. You were NEVER promised sword skills for ele. Your “promise” is based on very old datamining that has been since nullified by a second wave of datamining showing off elemental warhorn. As that_shaman on reddit regularly says : datamined stuff is likely to change before being released. Whining because you didn’t get something that was datamined is childish entitlement.
2. All classes in the game are able to use and manifest magic power to a certain degree. It’s in the lore of the Guild Wars franchise. This is the reason why as a warrior, you could take necro as a secondary class and use their dark magic powers. In Guild Wars 2 every class can use Healing magic because the ambiant level of magic has increased since GW1, opening up a new range of powers.

I agree though there are problems with the tempest as it now stands : the overload mechanic is something that is encouraging you to stand in one attunement while nearly all weapon skills are balanced with attunement swapping in mind. Thus playing the tempest is neither as straightforward or as evident as playing the berserker. We have to look beyond a playstyle we have been using for such a long time, and it is very difficult.

To put things in perspective : at the launch of the game everyone and their mothers considered the ele to be a sub-par class because dps coefficients were so low and cooldown so high. It took weeks (if not months) of theorycrafting both in PvP and PvE for the community to come up with valid playstyles for this class. The tempest is not gonna be different in this regard IMHO.

The elite shout is nearly un-usable in 99% of the situations in this game This I completely agree with. Some suggested the shout should apply Alacrity to allies around the caster. Personnally I like this idea a lot.

VodCom.6924:

snip

I never said they promise, I said they teased us, learn to read.

Confirmed by berserker stream ’Warriors do not use magic"

I never said they promise, I said they teased us, learn to read.

ANet has never, to my knowledge at least, “teased” us about Eles using swords. It was only known because it was datamined from the client. They don’t put stuff in there intending it as a message, they put it in there because they are testing something out, and if it doesn’t make live, it’s for a reason. If you find out about something that is datamined, that is not ANet’s fault, and they owe you absolutely nothing for it.

It’s also worth nothing that Warriors are a mobile fire field by setting themselves on fire, which is a perfectly reasonable way to be a fire field.

Ohoni.6057:

I never said they promise, I said they teased us, learn to read.

ANet has never, to my knowledge at least, “teased” us about Eles using swords. It was only known because it was datamined from the client. They don’t put stuff in there intending it as a message, they put it in there because they are testing something out, and if it doesn’t make live, it’s for a reason. If you find out about something that is datamined, that is not ANet’s fault, and they owe you absolutely nothing for it.

It’s also worth nothing that Warriors are a mobile fire field by setting themselves on fire, which is a perfectly reasonable way to be a fire field.

I really wish the orb of water turned us into a mobile water field instead of sending that water field in a random direction where we can’t actually use it.

Also, does cyclone aim for the targeted player or the direction the tempest is facing ?

SkiTz.4590:

Alternate way to play dagger? No its not. Have you even kittening played tempest!!. Its based around boonshare and crap like that… Thats not an alternate dude…. Its the same kittening thing except its less optimal… No one is going to play a less optimal dagger ele unless they like losing.

I agree with you and I dont even play Ele, but I play against them.
However, I play Guardian. Ele and Guardian are under the same dev.

We(Guardians) complained that Dragonhunter Virtues were not worth it because they were only 600 range, whereas our vanilla Virtues were 1200 range.

The next thing we know, in the specialization patch, all our vanilla Virtues were nerfed to 600 range, to make Dragonhunter Virtues more appealing.

Just some advice, it might be better if we all just let the Tempest go by(no pun intended) rather than ask the dev to make it viable. From his track record of what he did to Guardian to make Dragonhunter viable, to make Tempest viable, guess what is going to happen to your optimal Dagger Ele?

Turtle Dragon.9241:

SkiTz.4590:

Alternate way to play dagger? No its not. Have you even kittening played tempest!!. Its based around boonshare and crap like that… Thats not an alternate dude…. Its the same kittening thing except its less optimal… No one is going to play a less optimal dagger ele unless they like losing.

I agree with you and I dont even play Ele, but I play against them.
However, I play Guardian. Ele and Guardian are under the same dev.

We(Guardians) complained that Dragonhunter Virtues were not worth it because they were only 600 range, whereas our vanilla Virtues were 1200 range.

The next thing we know, in the specialization patch, all our vanilla Virtues were nerfed to 600 range, to make Dragonhunter Virtues more appealing.

Just some advice, it might be better if we all just let the Tempest go by(no pun intended) rather than ask the dev to make it viable. From his track record of what he did to Guardian to make Dragonhunter viable, to make Tempest viable, guess what is going to happen to your optimal Dagger Ele?

He already destroyed our Signet Aura builds…perfectly good trait and it was just taken away because Tempest would have something to do with Auras. What we got were AoE Signets(aka Shouts; same effects as our Signets) that completely undermine the Powerful Auras trait, have much higher cooldowns, and we now have 5 different lines with 1 Aura-affecting trait in each >.>

Auramancer destroyed in favor of a much worse Auramancer.

Malchior.5732:

He already destroyed our Signet Aura builds…perfectly good trait and it was just taken away because Tempest would have something to do with Auras. What we got were AoE Signets(aka Shouts; same effects as our Signets) that completely undermine the Powerful Auras trait, have much higher cooldowns, and we now have 5 different lines with 1 Aura-affecting trait in each >.>

Auramancer destroyed in favor of a much worse Auramancer.

Just wait till they nerf ele to the ground because of pvp dominance. Going by anet’s previous records they will overnerf it to the trash tier it has been in in the past. And tempest will make it only worse.

rotten.9753:

Malchior.5732:

He already destroyed our Signet Aura builds…perfectly good trait and it was just taken away because Tempest would have something to do with Auras. What we got were AoE Signets(aka Shouts; same effects as our Signets) that completely undermine the Powerful Auras trait, have much higher cooldowns, and we now have 5 different lines with 1 Aura-affecting trait in each >.>

Auramancer destroyed in favor of a much worse Auramancer.

Just wait till they nerf ele to the ground because of pvp dominance. Going by anet’s previous records they will overnerf it to the trash tier it has been in in the past. And tempest will make it only worse.

Dunno about you, I’m swapping to Rev/Herald.
Not perfect, but has potential and a Dev that listens to feedback.