Guild Wars 2

Alberel Leonhart.9640:

…A badly played ele should not suck, they should be able to get by like a badly played thief or a badly played warrior. A well played ele should be able to do incredibly well just like a well played warrior or a well played thief…

The design goal should be:
-equally low skilled players draw
-equally high skilled players draw
-low skill vs high skill loses (the greater the skill disparity, the greater the loss)

Dumbing down the ele makes the third option less likely or impossible, which is why any ‘fix’ (beyond bug fixing/tweaks/etc.) should be to ‘smarten up’ the easier classes and NOT dumb down the ele.

DiogoSilva.7089:

…(the solution can be either to give elementalists a few of those skills, or nerf all others from other professions – btw, the first solution won’t dumb down elementalists, unlike what some people think, as they’ll still be as hard to master as ever)…

You’re arguing that by giving the ele 2-3 skills that they can easily and mindlessly spam to win a match (against an equally skilled foe), that that’s not dumbing them down _because+ they still have the option to use several times that many skills for the same result?

Making it easier to achieve equal results isn’t dumbing things down, because they can still do it in a harder way?!?!

We’ll have to agree to disagree on this.

Nick Danger.9821:

Alberel Leonhart.9640:

…A badly played ele should not suck, they should be able to get by like a badly played thief or a badly played warrior. A well played ele should be able to do incredibly well just like a well played warrior or a well played thief…

The design goal should be:
-equally low skilled players draw
-equally high skilled players draw
-low skill vs high skill loses (the greater the skill disparity, the greater the loss)

Dumbing down the ele makes the third option less likely or impossible, which is why any ‘fix’ (beyond bug fixing/tweaks/etc.) should be to ‘smarten up’ the easier classes and NOT dumb down the ele.

You do realise that most people are actually discussing the low skill vs low skill issue right? The fact is as it stands right now a low skill <insert profession here> can kill a medium to high skilled ele. So by your own definition of the ‘ideal’ the profession is broken.

Those of you parading around claiming to be god tier elementalists are irrelevant to the argument as that is not where the problem lies.

People don’t even want the profession ‘dumbed down’, they just want the current complexity of playing the profession to be adequately rewarded. Please re-read that last sentence. And again. We do not want the profession complexity changed. We just want numbers tweaked to bring us up to par. Cooldown reductions across the board would be enough, to be honest.

The funny thing is that those who claim the ele need drastic changes , think to have already mastered the profession thus being able to give a correct analysis of the situation, but all this is quite contradictory seen how the same people call with various names those who may have actually understood the concept of the ele

Alberel Leonhart.9640:

…The fact is as it stands right now a low skill <insert profession here> can kill a medium to high skilled ele.

Disagree.

Given equal skill, some classes take less effort to win vs an ele. That’s not anywhere the same as what you said. What you claim is not a given.

Those of you parading around claiming to be god tier elementalists…

This is obviously not directed at me because as I’ve previously said, I’m below average skill.

People don’t even want the profession ‘dumbed down’

Actually, some do are argue that in this very thread, and it’s to them I’m directing my posts.

…they just want the current complexity of playing the profession to be adequately rewarded.

No reasonable person is arguing otherwise.

Please re-read that last sentence. And again. (see I can do that too… annoying and unhelpful isn’t it?)

…We just want numbers tweaked to bring us up to par…

sigh…

No responsible person is arguing for imbalance. The argument is how balance is achieved — by dumbing down the ele or by ‘smartening up’ the ‘easier’ classes.

That’s my point, nothing else. If you’re arguing something else then direct that to whoever makes that argument, as I am not. I’ve been quite clear what I am and am not arguing here.

Do you realize you contradict yourself in your opening argument? You first say “…most people are actually discussing the low skill vs low skill…” then your next sentence says “… a low skill <insert profession here> can kill a medium to high skilled ele.”

First it’s people are discussing low skill vs low skill, then you discuss low skill vs med to high skill…

Alberel Leonhart.9640:

Nick Danger.9821:

Alberel Leonhart.9640:

…A badly played ele should not suck, they should be able to get by like a badly played thief or a badly played warrior. A well played ele should be able to do incredibly well just like a well played warrior or a well played thief…

The design goal should be:
-equally low skilled players draw
-equally high skilled players draw
-low skill vs high skill loses (the greater the skill disparity, the greater the loss)

Dumbing down the ele makes the third option less likely or impossible, which is why any ‘fix’ (beyond bug fixing/tweaks/etc.) should be to ‘smarten up’ the easier classes and NOT dumb down the ele.

You do realise that most people are actually discussing the low skill vs low skill issue right? The fact is as it stands right now a low skill <insert profession here> can kill a medium to high skilled ele. So by your own definition of the ‘ideal’ the profession is broken.

Those of you parading around claiming to be god tier elementalists are irrelevant to the argument as that is not where the problem lies.

People don’t even want the profession ‘dumbed down’, they just want the current complexity of playing the profession to be adequately rewarded. Please re-read that last sentence. And again. We do not want the profession complexity changed. We just want numbers tweaked to bring us up to par. Cooldown reductions across the board would be enough, to be honest.

A low skill player from another profession will never be able to beat a medium skill ele, I see it happening all the time…at least as long as we don’t speak about mesmer, this profession is the only one where you can’t really discern the level of skill of the user…it’s always an hard battle, hopefully the mesmer will be brought down to the other professions level where a bad player remain a bad player

Ill just call a basic game design concept present in mobas, fps, hack & slash, rpg, fighting games, beat them up and even third person games:

Because skill-shots and combos need more work to do than simple or auto-aimed attacks, they are rewarded to the players more than the others. (proportionally ofc)

This is not arbitrary. That relation means that a good player can real show of making combos/good aimed shots and getting an edge for it (have u ever seen pro playing mortal kombat/street fighter games?) while beginners are compensated for trying combos instead of button smashing. Everyone wins.

The thing is: that rule its not yet in the game. Elementalist combos-skillshots deal less damage that 2 hits without swapping from other classes given the conditions. (even in 1 hit in WvW as some screenshot showed in this forum)That can NEVER happen in a real balance.

I really like the swap/combo game play, and because of that I would really hate if they buff the basic attack/damage from the class. But the combos and skill shots must be fixed/updated with a real compensation balance in mind.

Alberel Leonhart.9640:

…So by your own definition of the ‘ideal’ [equal skill levels draw, superior skill wins)] the profession is broken…

No.

I separated this out because it highlights 2 important points.

First, because there’s imbalance you’re assuming it means the ele is broken, instead of the other class(es) being the broken ones. That’s the wrong way to look at it. My proof is the belief that AN does not want a class to be effective by mindlessly spamming only 2-3 of its 10+ skills.

Second, when you said in the same post “…People don’t even want the profession ‘dumbed down’…” that’s exactly what the result of your first point would be.

I’ll go thru the reason why point by point.

-if it’s the ele that’s broken, then it’s the ele that would be ‘fixed’
-the problem is that some classes can mindlessly spam 2-3 skills where an ele can’t
-if you’re going to ‘fix’ the ele and not the other classes, then you’re going to have to make the ele like the other classes
-making it so the ele can achieve a draw against equal skilled foes by only using 2-3 skill is dumbing it down from its present state.

So not only are some arguing here for dumbing down the ele, you are one of said folks, even tho you claim the contrary.

I started as ele without hearing anything about it being underpowered; I just wanted to play an ele. As I’ve gone through the game, I have found that I love the class. I haven’t done a significant amount of PvP, but in 1v1 I do well. PvE, I can handle quite a lot.

PvE, I play as D/D, with a focus on sheer damage. I haven’t taken a lot of time to min/max, but I get by handily. That said, it requires a lot of button mashing and knowledge of the class. I find that to be a lot of fun, but I recognize that it’s not for everyone. Many of the people whom I know that play MMOs would not be able to play this class as it stands.

We can put this in very simple mathematical terms: elementalists are quantifiably 1.5-2x as complicated as any other class, perhaps more, if complexity scales with the number of available skills. In any setup, an ele has at least 25 skills available. This number can go up to a grand total of 41 skills if you (stupidly) took 4 weapon summons, but flaming greatsword is definitely one of our best elites, so we arguably have 29 skills (assuming it subtracts one skill from your hotbar while adding 5 more).

Other classes have far fewer skills. Mesmer has 19 if you count its shatters in the same way as a normal skill. Warrior has 16. 19/25 is about 4/5 of the way there, 16/25 is definitely more simple.

Despite the condescending tone of the original post, its message seems correct: the ele is not and should not be for everyone. It requires that you work with a much wider array of tools in order to thrive. Done well, it can be an impressive force. Done poorly, you might end up with your face in the dirt more often than makes you comfortable.

The ele is a hard class by design, but I do not believe it is underpowered. Giving it a buff would be a mistake and give an unnecessary edge to the people who can play the ele well already. The only thing I find to be a reasonable alternative is to give the class buffs in some areas and nerfs in others, but then I think the class would look and feel exactly like the other classes.

For me, the ele’s difficulty is a welcome challenge. There are still areas in which I know I can and should improve, but it’s tremendously better for me and others who enjoy this type of gaming than other more straightforward classes.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying a more straightforward class, and there are ways in which you can be a good gamer that don’t necessarily involve the same skillsets as those required to play ele. Please go play those classes if you are unsatisfied with the ele, because I would frankly be bored playing them, but this I find entertaining. Other people do, too. With actual variety in the classes, more people are able to find their class of choice, and that’s a good thing.

I love the elementalist, and the idea of the elementalist, much more than the other classes so far. Yes, it is complex. Yes, it requires tons of button mashing and stance dancing but at the end of the day I find it to be FAR superior in enjoyment quality than my faceroll Ranger main.

I really hope they don’t change the core gameplay of this class. The challenge presented by it is absolutely outstanding.

In WvW, after my squad kept wiping the enemy players, they came up with a new plan, and charged straight past everybody else to kill me.

If I’m dangerous enough that they will go straight past my team-mates to take me out, I’m not underpowered.

I’ve been playing elementalist for a few weeks, and still don’t know how to play it as well as I want to be able to play it. This is the right class for me.

If you want something easy to play – here’s a tip: Don’t go for the class that switches rapidly between 4 different skill bars.

I didn’t read all the posts so if this was already said I apologize. I agree with the OP 100%. Someone commented on how that ‘we’ elitest gamers have nothing to lose if everything gets balanced. You are wrong, you are so very wrong. There is no such thing as perfect balance. The only way to have every class balanced is if every class had the exact same skills. The way they balance things is they either make it easier, nerf it or fix bugs. Assuming Anet didn’t put the bugs in intentionally to ‘balance’ things out then the only thing they should have to change is fixing them. If they dumb down the class it wont be near as rewarding or as fun to play. If they nerf it then it wont be as rewarding. I think the class is perfectly fine the way it is. Just fix the bugs and leave everything alone. There arekittenclasses for people who can’t click fast and people with a slow learning curve.

Elric of Grans.7684:

You do realise, then, that most of your militant personal attacks are against people asking for one or more of the things I listed above, right?

You, perhaps; but what I’ve seen so far were “Elementalists are Underpowered”, not “The Elementalists’ skills are broken”. Yes, I don’t like it when RtL goes in the completely opposite direction, and it should be fixed; but to say Elementalists are underpowered and comparing them to classes that spam attacks — this is what I don’t want. Because those players are saying “A Thief can spam attacks, why can’t Ele?”.

I’ve had enough spamming a set rotation in WoW, I like the way this game keeps me on my toes regarding my next attack.

EDIT: Regarding your redesign vs fix argument, all I have to say is:
Blizzard would argue otherwise. Just take a look at how every class was dumbed down over time in WoW.
And anyone who played the beta knows that we had the same arguments here back then; and ANet nerfed the game between Beta and Release to please all the whiners who found it too hard.

If you sit complicitly, they will change things to please the whiners. That’s how life works.

A few thoughts that flashed through my mind while reading through this thread:

First: ArenaNet has said that the Warrior is in “about the right place”.

Second, ArenaNet announced professions in what they initially thought was roughly the order of complexity. Elementalist was announced first. They judged them to be on a similar level of straightforwardness to the Warrior. (Mind you, every profession has been changed a lot in iterations since, so old information is old).

Third, the concept of there being 6 easy professions and 2 hard ones is one that’s been coming up a lot. What the second one is, however, seems to vary according to the speaker – some would say thief, some mesmer, some necromancer. But given a choice like that, it seems that the elementalist is always listed as one of them. Where there’s smoke, there’s fire (although fire in itself isn’t necessarily a bad thing).

Now, I know full well that I haven’t mastered the elementalist. Might never do so – I’m more of a methodical what’s-the-best-way-to-mess-up-the-opposition player than a master combo-chainer. It’s also probably too early to judge just how much of this is because people just haven’t got the hang of it yet, and how much is that the profession is actually weak, and overbuffing now could lead to needing to nerf later. But even so, I feel as if I’m far enough that I should be seeing that it’d be good if I did get that level, but at the moment that feel of potential just isn’t there.

What I’d probably suggest, at this point, is not bumping the damage – it’s obviously the combo profession, let’s keep it that way – but the survivability. Particularly at low levels, if that can be achieved, to give people a chance to learn the profession without getting too frustrated at how often they kiss dirt along the way. That way people can have a chance to get there, while the people who already have don’t get their playstyle changed – just a little more margin for error.

draxynnic.3719:

the concept of there being 6 easy professions and 2 hard ones is one that’s been coming up a lot. What the second one is, however, seems to vary according to the speaker – some would say thief, some mesmer, some necromancer.

Spot on, my friend… spot on.

As for the rest of the post… Picture a pro elementalist from one of the videos shared here. Now picture them with 30% more survivability.

I really want to find the person that says thief is a hard profession to play so I can take my imaginary stick and wack it over his imaginary brain. ~_~

Amnon.4769:

draxynnic.3719:

the concept of there being 6 easy professions and 2 hard ones is one that’s been coming up a lot. What the second one is, however, seems to vary according to the speaker – some would say thief, some mesmer, some necromancer.

Spot on, my friend… spot on.

As for the rest of the post… Picture a pro elementalist from one of the videos shared here. Now picture them with 30% more survivability.

Considering that the only pro elementalist I’ve seen has been having trouble surviving agaisnt anything, while roflstomping when using a warrior, I’d say that 30% more survivability should be enough for pros to run away less and dominate more, like they already do with other professions. Seems fair to me.

Wulfrim.4793:

I really want to find the person that says thief is a hard profession to play so I can take my imaginary stick and wack it over his imaginary brain. ~_~

Design-wise, I think Thief and Elementalist are easy to play and hard to master, in my opinion. Newbs can take advantage of initiative to spam a few strong attacks and win, or take advantage of the attunements to spam 20 skills. Good players will have to think which skill to sacrifice for which skill for both professions, because a thief using one skill locks you from using other skill, and an elementalist using one attunement locks you from using other attunement. It used to be this way in beta, before they buffed thieves and nerfed elementalists.

The thief is a bit too strong in numbers, and an elementalist is a bit too weak in numbers, so for now you don’t need to master a thief to win, while you’ll need to master an elementalist to stand a chance. Slightly nerf the former, slightly buff the later, and you’ll see that the general opinions about the difficulty to play will change drastically.

Personally, I don’t think a player should be able to survive through a 2v1 match, unless he outwits/outskills the other two significantly. Currently, that is the case with Elementalists IMO.

That’s a bit of an overstatement. Aside from getting the finishing blow, downing a Mesmer isn’t that difficult (as an Elementalist).

Which could also apply to your statement, if Mesmers are ‘flavor of the month’ then more-than-average amount of people play them, including the seriously pro players who would beat us even if they were in Moa form.

Incidentally, one other thing I’d been meaning to say and forgot…

It’s a little disconcerting to see how often elementalist discussions become one of how you need a particular set of skills to be effective when soloing. You need Lightning Flash so you can use the teleport-while-channeling trick. Which means of course you also need to be using a dagger offhand to have Churning Earth in the first place. You’ll then want a sceptre mainhand so you can do the 4-2-3-5 blast combo in fire. Oh, and Arcane Wave to throw in another blast finisher. The third utility varies somewhat, but when playing effectively or even optimally requires having a fixed mainhand, offhand, and two utilities, to me that’s a problem however good that build is.

@Drax, those are tips for not experienced players that want to be told how to play the game. Sadly that is now the majority of gaming community. I came to those conclusions on my own simply because I love Churning Earth but the exact same effect can be reached with staff and you dont need lightning flash for staff. You dont really need anything. I’m sure you can do equally as well with a scepter in the off hand, it just doesn’t appeal to me so I don’t write about it. You don’t have to do anything. You can play however you like and it can be just as effective as my build as long as you have the skill to back it up. The truth of the matter is, this generation of gamers DOESNT have the skill the back their preferred playstyle up so they complain until they no longer need it.

Actually, the air 4- 5 fire 4-2-3-5 scepter/ dagger combo, or the similar version for D/D, is pretty much one of the fastest ways elementalists have to kill enemies fast. Glass cannons in pve have much better survival when they can kill fast enough.

Everybody keeps saying “what if the elementalist was this much more powerful, then he’d be too good” but that is because all of these comparisons are being made with a really skilled elementalist player against a very unskilled any other class. Yes, if you play the elementalist in some top tier fashion and it gets a buff, you will feel OP when comparing to lesser skilled players. Why should I have to fight people against lower skilled players than my own just so I can compete?

And I honestly think there needs to be a damage increase. Most of our skills are hard to hit with due to huge telegraphs and long animations but even after comboing them for about 6 seconds before actually hitting the enemy, you only do 50% of the damage as any other class. Low damage should never be paired with low survivability just because that class can support well. Doesn’t that throw elementalist into a niche? Wasn’t that what Anet said they didn’t want to do to any of their classes?

DaedalusDragon.3754:

…Why should I have to fight people against lower skilled players than my own just so I can compete?…

You shouldn’t.

…And I honestly think there needs to be a damage increase…

The problem most often cited here is that some classes can mindlessly spam 2-3 skill and win vs an equally skilled ele — ie that ele is ‘harder’ to play.

Serious question — do you think it is Anet’s intention that a class can mindlessly spam 2-3 of their 10+ skills to win vs an equally skilled foe?

If you answer ‘yes’, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

If you answer ‘no’, the any fix has to start with changing the ‘easier’ class(es).

Any changes to ele would have to be considered after the changes to the ‘easier’ class(es).

So your belief in the need for a damage buff is premature at best, and not the best way to address your perceived problem.

I would just love to have them fix some of the traits and abilities first before doing anything major to the class. I’m not saying it doesn’t have its problems, but the apparent ones are easier to fix without breaking the class.

Nick Danger.9821:

DaedalusDragon.3754:

…Why should I have to fight people against lower skilled players than my own just so I can compete?…

You shouldn’t.

…And I honestly think there needs to be a damage increase…

The problem most often cited here is that some classes can mindlessly spam 2-3 skill and win vs an equally skilled ele — ie that ele is ‘harder’ to play.

Serious question — do you think it is Anet’s intention that a class can mindlessly spam 2-3 of their 10+ skills to win vs an equally skilled foe?

If you answer ‘yes’, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

If you answer ‘no’, the any fix has to start with changing the ‘easier’ class(es).

Any changes to ele would have to be considered after the changes to the ‘easier’ class(es).

So your belief in the need for a damage buff is premature at best, and not the best way to address your perceived problem.

Anet thinks the Warrior is the best example of balance for this game. Although they have their popular Hundred Blades, it’s actually an ability that requires skill to connect against good players. In comparison, I’d say thieves and mesmers are stronger than normal, and elementalists and necromancers are weaker than normal. Interestingly, the first two were buffed right before the release of the game, and the last two were nerfed right before the release of the game. There was clearly an overbuff and overnerf respectively, imo. Those four professions actually used to be at opposite situations.

I also want to add that 2-3 burst skills out of 10 is not unreal. Keep in mind that all other 7 professions might also have about 2-3 defensive skills, 2-3 control skills, and 2 auto-attacks. That’s between 8 and 11 skills, out of a maximum of 10. For example, the GS warrior has the HB burst, but they also have means to be more mobile, to catch targets, etc. In other words, with GS they have their HB as their meat burst skill, and other skills to make sure the target is always there for HB, as well as to add additional damage. There’s a strategy behind the weapon that is about finding or creating the best moment to use your 1-2 burst skills.

Also to keep in mind that against good players, no one is going to spam 2-3 skills all over, unless they are clearly broken. This only happens between newbs, who are still unaware on how to counter those skills with their own skillset.

Although I think some of the strongest classes need to be toned down, it’s very clear that the elementalist is also a bit bellow to the Anet’s “best example”, the Warrior.

And finally, I don’t think buffing the elementalist would dumb it down. I’m not asking for a single skill that deal 10k damage. I think general, small buffs to several skillsets would be better. It would still be a challenging class to play, but at least the people who’re mastering it can dominate newbs, as they should have been in the first place.

@DiogoSilva First, thanks for the polite and well-reasoned reply!

Second, while I digest your post (it merits taking the time for this), one question…

DiogoSilva.7089:

Anet thinks the Warrior is the best example of balance for this game…

I’ve seen this said but haven’t found the citation, could you (or someone) provide it please
? I’m curious when it was said, what changes may have been made since, etc., so as to put it into proper context, as it’s an important part of your argument.

Thanks!

Nick Danger.9821:

@DiogoSilva First, thanks for the polite and well-reasoned reply!

Second, while I digest your post (it merits taking the time for this), one question…

DiogoSilva.7089:

Anet thinks the Warrior is the best example of balance for this game…

I’ve seen this said but haven’t found the citation, could you (or someone) provide it please
? I’m curious when it was said, what changes may have been made since, etc., so as to put it into proper context, as it’s an important part of your argument.

Thanks!

It was said by Jon Peters, I believe, in this forum, during beta. He said that the warrior was “where the design team wanted him to be” (or something very close to that). I don’t have the exact quote, I’m sorry, and I can’t find it on google either.

I just want to put my two cents in here.

First off, it’s really hard to balance game mechanics. I’m a gameplay programmer, it’s literally what I do. The easiest way to balance a game is to make skills, abilities, guns, etc. essentially the same thing. The more diversity there is to the game, the harder it becomes to balance. Many times players get emotional while playing a game or refuse to admit their skill level and call out that something is grossly imbalanced without much warrant.

I can’t play the other classes as well as I play my elementalist. I’ve tried, and I’ve had fun with other classes (briefly), but in the end I always find that I have a lack of options available. I played a priest in WoW because I felt the other healer classes didn’t have enough options to react to the situation, it’s just the kind of player I am.

When I PvP I stomp noobs into the ground. That’s not to say I’m elitest, or that I never lose, but if someone thinks they can win through basic tactics it’s very rare that they do. Every now and then I’ll duel my friends or find really talented players of all classes and when I fight them it’s usually, if not always, a very close match. Most of the time I still win these skirmishes but it’s extremely evident to me that if I had made one mistake it could have cost me the match. This shows me that the game is balanced in the hands of strong players.

Some builds on certain classes are harder to fight than others, and depending on my setup that changes as well. But the issue stands that I almost never lose a legitimate fight to any basic strategy like heartseeker spams, hundred blade warriors, or pistol condition mesmers.

Balance can’t be determined for the low-skill, low-knowledge masses in a game. Arena.net stated that they want this game to be e-sports worthy competitive PvP. If that’s the case, then they will compare top-tier players on different classes against each other. If a class is made easier to use for the masses through a buff (and not a complete feature revamp, which is often a bad way to handle things ala WoW) then the top-tier players suddenly have an overwhelming advantage.

It’s unfortunate that the elementalist is such an attractive class visually and spiritually because it’s also a very difficult class. This brings a large player population. Almost everybody (about 80%, I forget where I read the polls) thinks they’re better than average at driving cars. But only 50% can be better than below average, not even labeling them as average. I hope you can see the correlation.

That’s all.

DiogoSilva.7089:

….snip.

…no my friend, the ele wasn’t that much better before nerfs, simply they were too many nerf criers and Anet gulliby believed them, I still remember “interviews” from some shady journalist who said something on these lines :" Aren’t you worried about the current state of the ele?, the community is worried that they’ll dominate like it happened in WoW with the frost mage"

And we’re talking about Chaplain and karl videos, were some random noobs with no previous experience in the game got destroyed by meteorstorm and dragon’s tooth and started to cry on GW2 guru forum only for Anet to listen to them….

No..the ele wasn’t that much better before nerfs, I know the current ele is far from being UP as many claim..but before it wasn’t that OP that we can say the nerfs were deserved.

I will never agree with Anet especially on the nerf of Flame Grab, it was completely uncalled for, we’re talking about a skill able to deal 8k dmg when going full glass cannon ele who were brave enough to go close range.

Apparently having a 150% dmg increase skill for ele was too much…that’s why thieves can have an attack increased by 200% on the next attack, which can be far too easily landed

Naurgalen.2374:

Ill just call a basic game design concept present in mobas, fps, hack & slash, rpg, fighting games, beat them up and even third person games:

Because skill-shots and combos need more work to do than simple or auto-aimed attacks, they are rewarded to the players more than the others. (proportionally ofc)

This is not arbitrary. That relation means that a good player can real show of making combos/good aimed shots and getting an edge for it (have u ever seen pro playing mortal kombat/street fighter games?) while beginners are compensated for trying combos instead of button smashing. Everyone wins.

The thing is: that rule its not yet in the game. Elementalist combos-skillshots deal less damage that 2 hits without swapping from other classes given the conditions. (even in 1 hit in WvW as some screenshot showed in this forum)That can NEVER happen in a real balance.

I really like the swap/combo game play, and because of that I would really hate if they buff the basic attack/damage from the class. But the combos and skill shots must be fixed/updated with a real compensation balance in mind.

This is exactly how I feel. I love the elementalist’s complex gameplay, and I have done a ton of PvE, PvP and everything in between while playing mine obsessively. It is clear to me that the complexity is not rewarded with results. It does not give us a high ceiling, but a low floor.

I do not want it simplified. I want it to be rewarded. If my attack rotation takes three times the time and key presses as that of a warrior, I expect to do more damage, not less. If my defenses are all active ones, as I have the lowest possible combination of hit points and armor, I expect them to be more effective than hit points and armor.

The spells and attunements are a great design. Just change some of the numbers a bit.

We have so many utility skills that more than make up for our lack of damage. I’m absolutely LOVING ele in sPvP so far. Out of my Ranger, Warrior and Mesmer I feel this class, and it’s absolutely amazing heals and support utility, is the most rewarding to myself and my team.

Tolmos.8395:

We have so many utility skills that more than make up for our lack of damage. I’m absolutely LOVING ele in sPvP so far. Out of my Ranger, Warrior and Mesmer I feel this class, and it’s absolutely amazing heals and support utility, is the most rewarding to myself and my team.

Other professions have utilities too, so the point becomes moot. :/ And I do love playing elementalist the best, but I don’t see what’s so rewarding about it.

Naurgalen.2374:

Ill just call a basic game design concept present in mobas, fps, hack & slash, rpg, fighting games, beat them up and even third person games:

Because skill-shots and combos need more work to do than simple or auto-aimed attacks, they are rewarded to the players more than the others. (proportionally ofc)

This is not arbitrary. That relation means that a good player can real show of making combos/good aimed shots and getting an edge for it (have u ever seen pro playing mortal kombat/street fighter games?) while beginners are compensated for trying combos instead of button smashing. Everyone wins.

The thing is: that rule its not yet in the game. Elementalist combos-skillshots deal less damage that 2 hits without swapping from other classes given the conditions. (even in 1 hit in WvW as some screenshot showed in this forum)That can NEVER happen in a real balance.

I really like the swap/combo game play, and because of that I would really hate if they buff the basic attack/damage from the class. But the combos and skill shots must be fixed/updated with a real compensation balance in mind.

actually combo does not require almost any skill….just bad fighting games for examples rewards complex combos…and they are considered usually unbalanced.

Just coming fromcompetitive FG scene where its crystal clear that any child can learn flashy long combos given the time, but just few can learn more complex mechanics based on mind games, traps etc.

So from a certain point of view only the risk coming from “attunement dance” should be SLIGHTLY rewarded, but making ele OP because it requires to press more buttons would be horrible.

The problem is that despite requiring skill, it seems that has really few builds and most of them can be easily outperformed by other classes.

But also there are so many classes hipsters that loves their difficult class you probably never heard of.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Nick Danger.9821:

@DiogoSilva First, thanks for the polite and well-reasoned reply!

Second, while I digest your post (it merits taking the time for this), one question…

DiogoSilva.7089:

Anet thinks the Warrior is the best example of balance for this game…

I’ve seen this said but haven’t found the citation, could you (or someone) provide it please
? I’m curious when it was said, what changes may have been made since, etc., so as to put it into proper context, as it’s an important part of your argument.

Thanks!

It was said by Jon Peters, I believe, in this forum, during beta. He said that the warrior was “where the design team wanted him to be” (or something very close to that). I don’t have the exact quote, I’m sorry, and I can’t find it on google either.

I can’t find it either, even searching through his posts here.

Best I found is HERE from 4 July 2012:

“There are a few aspects of every profession that are currently wildly overpowered. If you look around on YouTube, you can see examples of mesmer, engineer, ranger, warrior, elementalist, thief, necromancer, and yes, guardian, being overpowered. It is now our job to bring those things into balance with the rest of the game.”

And…

“Jon Peters: The mesmer is the newest profession as far as getting play in our metagame. This means we will be making more dramatic changes to it than to our more established professions, such as the warrior.”

Another from ~14 Sept 2012

“Keep in mind that some professions are harder to master than others. I believe Necro is the hardest, opinions may vary, but just keep this in mind.” from

Finally, on general balancing, from 13 Sept 2012

Sorry, but your statement “Anet thinks the Warrior is the best example of balance for this game.” needs a citation to verify and put in context.

Even if it holds up, does that mean the ele isn’t balanced? Answer is no. Nor does it show that Anet intends a class to spam 2-3 of its 10+ skills to be successful vs equal skilled foe — which was my point that you responded to.

My point stands — DaedalusDragon’s belief that the ele needs a damage buff is premature at best, and not the best way to address the perceived problem. First, balance the ‘easier’ classes, then see what needs to be done (while fixing ele bugs and tweaking a few things).

When folks are challenged they can put in the effort to buckle down and work harder and improve their game, or put in the effort to make things easier.

Being challenged by profession mechanics and overcome them.. Good
Being challenged by broken and unbalanced numbers.. Not good

People want to be challenged .. Sure
But i rather be challenged to use all skills and tactical senses i have instead of training an ability in “how to avoid the weak stuff and make your build like 5 million other people because its the only viable one”

Ofcourse i do agree with Arenanet though.. Let the dust settle before we take a look