Guild Wars 2

“Why did the Tempest only get numbers, when [other class] got all this other great stuff in BWE2?”*

I’ve seen this sort of comment come up far too often in the response to the BWE2 Tempest changes, but in case it needs spelling out, the beta is not about you. It is about improving the game as a whole, and testing various features as they move towards launch. They do not owe you a fun and fully workable class, not until launch day of HoT. That is what you paid for, for the Tempest to be fun on launch day, and not a minute before. Anything else they offer you is bonus.

So if you aren’t satisfied with where the Tempest is at right now, that’s fine. Certainly let them know that, and explain why you don’t like it, and how they can change it. That’s all useful feedback.

But if you feel upset that the Tempest is not great right now, then too bad. If you are upset because some classes got more substantial changes between BWE1 and 2, then too bad. It is not their job, nor should it be, to make sure that every class is equally represented at all phases in beta. Count your blessings, people who main four of the classes haven’t even gotten to try theirs yet.

As the BWEs move forward, class balancing will move at a constantly shifting pace. Some betas, class A will see significant improvements, and class B will see relatively nonsense tweaks. Others, class A will get very little and class B will get some major stuff. Just because a class only gets minor tweaks between two beta windows, does not mean that they have given up on the class or that it won’t eventually see major changes, it just means that the sort of development time that it would take to make those major changes is not available for that beta window, or that other projects take priority.

That is a GOOD thing, to do otherwise would mean wasting a lot of time and attention trying to make sure that if child 1 gets a toy, child 2 must get an equally cool toy or he’ll throw a fit in the store. Sometimes people need to grow up and learn to be patient.

If the changes they are making to the Tempest in BWE2 do not appeal to you, that’s fine. You don’t have to play the Tempest over that weekend if you totally don’t like the class. Play a standard kit Elementalitst in the new content, see how that works out. Or maybe try out one of the other classes, BWE2 will likely have all the BWE1 stuff, plus probably 2-4 new classes, and Glint, so give those a go. Or if you absolutely can’t be bothered to test out HoT in anything less than a perfect Tempest, then just play the normal game that weekend. They’re all valid options.

But the point is, the beta weekends are not about you, they are not about making sure that your intended class is the absolute most important thing at every phase in development. The betas are there to test the game, and to make ALL the classes and content the best it can be, and that process is not always evenly paced. Get over it.

*and for the record, the reason is likely because they’d been working on a lot of that other stuff already, and just had to pull the trigger on it, but they don’t have any major Tempest changes ready at the moment, but are certainly working on it at some level.

words fail me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI

So first off, the best spec of the BWE1 saw more updates then Ele and Guardian combined, second would be the Necro which sat at about the same place as Guardian. So your telling me they had more then ample amounts of time to work on one of the middle and the best spec but can’t shift some of that time to what was the worst of the weekend and the one that needed the most improvements?

While yes you are right on one point, we want to see a viable fun spec by launch, but when the devs seem to just gloss over your feedback and do something so minimal that really doesn’t fix any of the issues it makes you question why the other classes are getting so much that actually makes a difference. This is the problem, and without me being a multi-class player and as well enjoying the Revnant, I would probably not even be logging in during the next BWE with the lack-luster changes they provided, I know I have no reason to try out the Ele “changes” next weekend.

EDIT: My bad it was the Necro that had the big list of changes not the Mesmer. Still the Mesmer saw on par with the Guardian, which in its own right could have been time spent on working on the Elementalist.

Well, the expansion sort of is about the consumer, and by extension so is the beta. >.>

Not sure I get the point of this rant at any rate.

Rialen.1524:

Well, the expansion sort of is about the consumer, and by extension so is the beta. >.>

Not sure I get the point of this rant at any rate.

People will blindly defend anything even if their logic for defending is contradictory.

OP forgot that beta is about giving feedback and expecting changes. The fact that he is attempting to spin this to mean something different is amazing.

Klocknov.8219:

So first off, the best spec of the BWE1 saw more updates then Ele and Guardian combined, second would be the Necro which sat at about the same place as Guardian. So your telling me they had more then ample amounts of time to work on one of the middle and the best spec but can’t shift some of that time to what was the worst of the weekend and the one that needed the most improvements?

While yes you are right on one point, we want to see a viable fun spec by launch, but when the devs seem to just gloss over your feedback and do something so minimal that really doesn’t fix any of the issues it makes you question why the other classes are getting so much that actually makes a difference. This is the problem, and without me being a multi-class player and as well enjoying the Revnant, I would probably not even be logging in during the next BWE with the lack-luster changes they provided, I know I have no reason to try out the Ele “changes” next weekend.

EDIT: My bad it was the Necro that had the big list of changes not the Mesmer. Still the Mesmer saw on par with the Guardian, which in its own right could have been time spent on working on the Elementalist.

Using that logic, reaper deserved the most love because base necro is the most looked down upon class in PvE content. You can even argue that reaper is going to improve the class greatly. Base ele is amazing as it is… it’s certainly considered top tier… what you are feeling right now is how necromancer mains have felt for almost 3 years now.

Ohoni.6057:

“Why did the Tempest only get numbers, when [other class] got all this other great stuff in BWE2?”*

I’ve seen this sort of comment come up far too often in the response to the BWE2 Tempest changes, but in case it needs spelling out, the beta is not about you. It is about improving the game as a whole, and testing various features as they move towards launch. They do not owe you a fun and fully workable class, not until launch day of HoT. That is what you paid for, for the Tempest to be fun on launch day, and not a minute before. Anything else they offer you is bonus.

So if you aren’t satisfied with where the Tempest is at right now, that’s fine. Certainly let them know that, and explain why you don’t like it, and how they can change it. That’s all useful feedback.

But if you feel upset that the Tempest is not great right now, then too bad. If you are upset because some classes got more substantial changes between BWE1 and 2, then too bad. It is not their job, nor should it be, to make sure that every class is equally represented at all phases in beta. Count your blessings, people who main four of the classes haven’t even gotten to try theirs yet.

As the BWEs move forward, class balancing will move at a constantly shifting pace. Some betas, class A will see significant improvements, and class B will see relatively nonsense tweaks. Others, class A will get very little and class B will get some major stuff. Just because a class only gets minor tweaks between two beta windows, does not mean that they have given up on the class or that it won’t eventually see major changes, it just means that the sort of development time that it would take to make those major changes is not available for that beta window, or that other projects take priority.

That is a GOOD thing, to do otherwise would mean wasting a lot of time and attention trying to make sure that if child 1 gets a toy, child 2 must get an equally cool toy or he’ll throw a fit in the store. Sometimes people need to grow up and learn to be patient.

If the changes they are making to the Tempest in BWE2 do not appeal to you, that’s fine. You don’t have to play the Tempest over that weekend if you totally don’t like the class. Play a standard kit Elementalitst in the new content, see how that works out. Or maybe try out one of the other classes, BWE2 will likely have all the BWE1 stuff, plus probably 2-4 new classes, and Glint, so give those a go. Or if you absolutely can’t be bothered to test out HoT in anything less than a perfect Tempest, then just play the normal game that weekend. They’re all valid options.

But the point is, the beta weekends are not about you, they are not about making sure that your intended class is the absolute most important thing at every phase in development. The betas are there to test the game, and to make ALL the classes and content the best it can be, and that process is not always evenly paced. Get over it.

*and for the record, the reason is likely because they’d been working on a lot of that other stuff already, and just had to pull the trigger on it, but they don’t have any major Tempest changes ready at the moment, but are certainly working on it at some level.

a lot of work to troll everyone…
not too successful, but it was funny lol.

“its not about you, even though you spent $50-$100 on a product and when you (and the rest of the elementalist community) determined you got a disfigured, horrific version of that product you paid for, you got mad, but you shouldnt be because its not about you or your money or your experience – its about Anet shoving whatever piece of disfigured confusion down your throat, whether you like it or not.”

haha good one man, i admit, i got mad before i realized you were trollin us xD xD xd ex d +1

OP be whiteknighting so hard you can feel the neckbeard and fedora through the internet.

So first off, the best spec of the BWE1 saw more updates then Ele and Guardian combined,

And first off, that does not matter at all. So what if the “best class of BWE1” got more updates? That just means that they had an easier time making those updates, or had already been working on them, than it would have been to make the updates that Ele or Guardian would need.

That’s ok. The important thing is NOT to get Guardian or Ele to where they need to be in BWE2, the important thing is to get them where they need to be by launch, and their state in BWE1 or 2 does not indicate what their state at launch will be, it is not a linear process.If the Reaper gets more substantive changes in BWE2, that’s fine, the Tempest will likely see more substantive changes in BWE3 or 4, while the Reaper will likely see more minor ones. Spreading developer attention absolutely evenly at every phase of the process is a very inefficient way of doing things, and completely unnecessary to the process.

So your telling me they had more then ample amounts of time to work on one of the middle and the best spec but can’t shift some of that time to what was the worst of the weekend and the one that needed the most improvements?

Yes, exactly so.

This is the problem, and without me being a multi-class player and as well enjoying the Revnant, I would probably not even be logging in during the next BWE with the lack-luster changes they provided, I know I have no reason to try out the Ele “changes” next weekend.

And that’s fine, because, as the title of the thread says, “Beta is not about you.” If you don’t see a reason to play the next beta, then the world will go on just fine without you. There’s still plenty that you could be doing though.

OP forgot that beta is about giving feedback and expecting changes. The fact that he is attempting to spin this to mean something different is amazing.

It is about that, but it is a long game. It’s definitely NOT about giving feedback and expecting major changes by the next patch, or being upset when another class gets bigger changes than your class gets. Nobody is saying that players should be silent about giving feedback, just that the feedback should be in the proper context.

“its not about you, even though you spent $50-$100 on a product and when you (and the rest of the elementalist community) determined you got a disfigured, horrific version of that product you paid for, you got mad, but you shouldnt be because its not about you or your money or your experience – its about Anet shoving whatever piece of disfigured confusion down your throat, whether you like it or not.”

The product you paid for hasn’t come out yet. As of this minute, they owe you absolutely nothing. They could exclude the Tempest from all beta weekends and you would still be getting 100% of everything you paid for.

Now, when HoT launches, that’s what you paid for, and if the Tempest is awful, then you have every right to be upset about that. For the time being though, if you’re disappointed in the current state of the class because you’re concerned about where it will end up, giving constructive feedback is perfectly appropriate, but complaining about the current state because it’s the current state is entirely worthless.

[cringing intensifies]

How are people cringing at this post and are not cringing at the posts in the BWE 2 changes post? Someone even mentioned that devs should “just work overtime to get the job done” with no idea about the time frame we are working with.

Let’s take a moment and look at the release order of the specialization: Mesmer, Guardian, Necromancer, Elementalist, Revenant, Warrior.

Chronomancer was shown to us April 30, nearly four months ago. Keep in mind that we are shown the reveals as Anet deems them “ready”. So nearly 4 months between a “ready chronomancer” to now is a lot of time to do work and come up with changes.

Furthermore, keep in mind it’s not just one group working on nine professions together. There are different teams of developers working on different professions. Group A working on Mesmer/Necromancer/etc probably has a lot less on their plate, considering the time frame they finished, compared to Group B on Guardian/Elementalist.

Moreover, I had a stint in painting while studying 3D animation and I learned about effective critique. Someone shows their piece and you could say, “It sucks”. Okay, so we know it sucks, does that help them?

How about something like, “It’s not good because your proportions are wrong on the face area. The mouth needs to be this much down from the nose.” I changed the wording, but you could say “it sucks” instead of “it’s not good” and it would still be fairly productive critique.

Now this person knows that they need to work on the mouth, how useful is it to have a class of 30 people plus the professor tell this person, “It sucks because the mouth is in the wrong place.” At what point does it stop being helpful? “You should just not sleep or do work for your other courses and fix that mouth cause it’s bad.” “That’s all you did, that’s terrible”.

People have to understand that another person, isn’t you. Developers are people too, people with feelings, dreams, and who are probably just as passionate as you are about the game. You’re not paid much in game development (think the salary of a high school teacher). A lot of people do this job because they love games and unfortunately, the turnaround rate in games is extremely high. People burn out from working themselves to hard and leave to do other stuff.

Finally, thinking of the Tempest stream, I’m pretty sure Karl mentioned that damage on overloads could be increased and the radius of air overload could be increased. It seems these changes are the ones he had in mind back when tempest was streamed. The streamed also mentioned working on unique sounds for warhorn abilities and earth overload’s animation, iirc. Things are being worked on. Offer your feedback, but have a little respect.

Before anyone accuses me of being a Tempest-lover or whatnot, I’m not satisfied with the current state of Tempest. I am extremely dissatisfied with some of the conduct I saw over the weekend though.

PlatinumMember.5274:

OP forgot that beta is about giving feedback and expecting changes. The fact that he is attempting to spin this to mean something different is amazing.

While you can expect changes to be made eventually, you are not entitled to a full list of changes on/by any specific date of your choosing. The devs have already said there will be more changes. This settles the question.

Ohoni.6057:

“its not about you, even though you spent $50-$100 on a product and when you (and the rest of the elementalist community) determined you got a disfigured, horrific version of that product you paid for, you got mad, but you shouldnt be because its not about you or your money or your experience – its about Anet shoving whatever piece of disfigured confusion down your throat, whether you like it or not.”

The product you paid for hasn’t come out yet. As of this minute, they owe you absolutely nothing. They could exclude the Tempest from all beta weekends and you would still be getting 100% of everything you paid for.

Now, when HoT launches, that’s what you paid for, and if the Tempest is awful, then you have every right to be upset about that. For the time being though, if you’re disappointed in the current state of the class because you’re concerned about where it will end up, giving constructive feedback is perfectly appropriate, but complaining about the current state because it’s the current state is entirely worthless.

I personally really like the overload concept. Everything else? … Not so much. But I think you’re misunderstanding the outrage over the changes OP.

If you look at the other class forums at least for Necro and Mesmer, you can clearly see that changes were made as a direct result of player feedback. Not only were the changes (and even the nerfs on Chronomancer) intelligent and interesting, but they clearly demonstrated that a dev is reading our input, values it, and attempted to work with us.

Tempest changes, on the other hand, show a lack of understanding (or denial) of why the Tempest was so lackluster, with few edits that actually address what players were complaining about.

So while other players get to actively participate in the development in their elite specs, Eles get a note that says “lol deal with it. beta not about you.”

Chaos Archangel.5071:

If you look at the other class forums at least for Necro and Mesmer, you can clearly see that changes were made as a direct result of player feedback.

Tempest changes, on the other hand, show a lack of understanding (or denial) of why the Tempest was so lackluster, with few edits that actually address what players were complaining about.

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

Greetings Tyrians,

Thanks for all the feedback on the Tempest from this last Beta Event! After poring over your posts and doing some of our own testing we’ve made some changes to address issues with Warhorn skills and Elemental Overloads.

We gathered from you that, on the whole, Warhorn skills felt decent even if a few felt undertuned. We’ve made the following adjustments to bring them more in line with other profession skills.

The concepts behind overloading an element were pretty well received, however you called out that the time cost of overloading compared to the final rewards were too unbalanced. Overloads are intended as potent tools which are not always available – to push this feeling each of them has been given a stronger effect to bring some more parity to the risk vs. reward of using them.

We’ll continue hearing your feedback and reading over your excellent discussions from the Beta Weekend.

They made changes, to a lot of things that were brought up from the beta feedback, and said they will continue to listen and read feedback. All of the edits made to Tempest were some of the complains. Warhorn skills feeling a little lackluster, but overall decent. Overloads didn’t feel worth stopping your rotation to use.

Ohoni’s entire point is that these are not the only changes. Raise your feedback, but don’t act like the expansion is next week. It’s an iterative process.

EDIT: formatting

BIGHARSHNESS.3510:

Klocknov.8219:

bla bla bla, look at my post.

Using that logic, reaper deserved the most love because base necro is the most looked down upon class in PvE content. You can even argue that reaper is going to improve the class greatly. Base ele is amazing as it is… it’s certainly considered top tier… what you are feeling right now is how necromancer mains have felt for almost 3 years now.

This is probably one of the first times I would disagree with that statement, we are talking about BWE content, not the entire game. Though Necro so far has had the most dev attention, so you may be on to a reason why so. Necro has always been treated as the black horse and I am glad to finally see some good coming to it, but that does not mean the worst implementation of content should be pretty much ignored. As I said the Mesmer, agreed upon to be the best spec of the event got more changes then the Ele, so why weren’t those resources moved to make some more thorough changes to Ele which could make a big difference in how it works next BWE and make it worth actually trying to see if what is new actaully makes it play better. Ohoni said they didn’t have the resources an obviously they had enough extra to work on changes for what was the best and not what was the worst? That is what I was getting at, not that Necro has been the most unloved class for 3 years as I would fully agree with you on that.

If you look at the other class forums at least for Necro and Mesmer, you can clearly see that changes were made as a direct result of player feedback.

Some, but not all. Some of the changes, like the Reaper summon change, were things that were being worked on even before the announcements. And not all from direct feedback to BWE1. There was also “pre-feedback” in response to the initial announcements, months before BWE1.

When they announced Reaper, for example, people raised concerns about various features, and ANet might have been working on some possible tweaks based on those concerns, but they either weren’t ready when they locked down the BWE1 build, or they just wanted to try out the original versions first to see what players really felt with them in hand. But now they are ready to go.

The Tempest was announced right before BWE1, so there is a lot less time for them to work on behind the scenes stuff between the original announcement and today.

Tempest changes, on the other hand, show a lack of understanding (or denial) of why the Tempest was so lackluster, with few edits that actually address what players were complaining about.

No, they don’t. They don’t “show” anything, beyond that this is what the developers feel ready to push out to BWE2. It shows absolutely nothing about how they reacted to feedback, or where they are currently aiming the spec, all it shows is "we can make these changes functional by the time we have to lock down a BWE2 build, so we’ll do them. At no point did they claim that this would “fix” the class.

So while other players get to actively participate in the development in their elite specs, Eles get a note that says “lol deal with it. beta not about you.”

Nobody, not ANet, certainly not me, is asking for anyone to stop participating in the beta process. There’s just a right and a wrong way to be a constructive member of that process, and complaining that the other kid is getting better toys than you right now is not a part of that. Certainly push for the Tempest you want to see, but keep your aim squarely on the launch date, on getting the Tempest there at that launch date. Anything that happens between now and then is not important.

As I said the Mesmer, agreed upon to be the best spec of the event got more changes then the Ele, so why weren’t those resources moved to make some more thorough changes to Ele

A lot of the Mesmer changes were just reverting changes they made before BWE1, or partially reverting them, and doing the same “number tweaks” that Tempest players deride as useless. We don’t know where they intend to go with the Tempest right now, and they likely won’t tell us any time soon because they don’t like talking about an idea until they’ve mostly finished it and tested it out, and are mostly satisfied with the results, but given that they don’t have it ready yet, it’s safe to believe that it would be a significant shift.

And as for why they got those changes while the Tempest didn’t? Different crews working on each (and therefore the people working on Mesmer could not efficiently work on the Tempest), different amounts of content already “lying around” from previous iterations, different amount of efforts required to make the necessary changes, it’s impossible to know without seeing behind the scenes as to exactly how everything is structured over there, but there is ZERO basis to assume that they simply don’t care. Of all possible explanations for the difference in changes between BWE1 and BWE2, that is the least likely.

I’m sorry, we should kitten in complain. All they had to do was make a post saying.

“We have heard your complaints and concerns with the Tempest spec and are going to be taking them under consideration. For the time being we will not be able to create mechanical changes that will make it to the upcoming beta weekend, for now we will be improving numbers to see how that factors into the cost benefit of overloading, but we do understand there are many problems currently with overload mechanics. We will be looking into changing the mechanics, reworking traits, modifying shouts and redesigning the elite. Some of the suggestions we liked were X Y Z. Please continue to make suggestions and post concerns as we want to deliver the best possible experience for all members of the elementalist community, and Guild Wards Player-base all around.”

That’s how you work with your player-base, you know the people who allow you to survive…

The OP does have some good points, but is wrong overall.

It is not their job, nor should it be, to make sure that every class is equally represented at all phases in beta.

It is their job, actually. All of these specializations are being worked on simultaneously by different parties specifically to give equal representation. If it wasn’t, then the classes would be worked on one at a time.

As much as I’d like to assume that there is no form of class discrimination by the devs, it is highly unlikely. First, discrimination isn’t a conscious decision, so no matter how much they say they aren’t showing favoritism, they have favorites. Second, each class is not only different, but each class community is different as well. Spend an adequate amount of time in the necro and engineer forum, and you’ll swear they were from different planets. Third, because each dev is going to have preconceived notions about the class, this will change how open to feedback they are. “Skill” is a concept that can be used to dismiss a surprising amount of legitimate criticism.

EDIT: Forgot this.

The biggest complaint currently isn’t the performance of the tempest per se. The tempest overall was alright. The problem is that all of the feedback that was given was ignored largely.

I’m sorry, we should kitten in complain. All they had to do was make a post saying.
. . .

That’s how you work with your player-base, you know the people who allow you to survive…

So basically your whole argument boils down to “I know they couldn’t have done anything substantive to make anything actually better, but they did a poor job with their PR bullkitten, so my anger is justified.”

I’m sorry, but I just have absolutely no respect for that position.

It is their job, actually. All of these specializations are being worked on simultaneously by different parties specifically to give equal representation. If it wasn’t, then the classes would be worked on one at a time.

No, it’s not. They are working separately, but not entirely separately, there is shared staff between them, and more importantly, different parts of the process happen at different rates, so some teams will be ahead sometimes, and others will be ahead others. That is not important. What is important is that they all reach the finish line, not what position they are at any point along the way.

As much as I’d like to assume that there is no form of class discrimination by the devs, it is highly unlikely. First, discrimination isn’t a conscious decision, so no matter how much they say they aren’t showing favoritism, they have favorites.

If, as you insist, each class is being worked on independently, then it would be impossible for them to play favorites, because each team would only be working on their favorite.

econd, each class is not only different, but each class community is different as well. Spend an adequate amount of time in the necro and engineer forum, and you’ll swear they were from different planets.

And you’re arguing that the Elementalist forum behaving like a bunch of spoiled children on a sugar rush will endear them to this community, and make them more likely to work harder to benefit them? A bold approach.

Third, because each dev is going to have preconceived notions about the class, this will change how open to feedback they are. “Skill” is a concept that can be used to dismiss a surprising amount of legitimate criticism.

I’m really not sure what this is about, it sounds like a thinly veiled “we’re better players, so we make up for the clear weaknesses of the class with how awesome we are,” which would be hilarious.

The biggest complaint currently isn’t the performance of the tempest per se. The tempest overall was alright. The problem is that all of the feedback that was given was ignored largely.

There is absolutely zero evidence to support that notion. Most of the feedback was not addressed in their proposed changes to the BWE2 patch, but there is no evidence that any of it could have been acted upon by that timeframe, and you have absolutely no idea what they are working on behind the scenes, or how much of it is related to the feedback from the forums. It also assumes that the feedback given was not worthy of being ignored, which is also possibly a false assumption.

Ohoni.6057:

So basically your whole argument boils down to “I know they couldn’t have done anything substantive to make anything actually better, but they did a poor job with their PR bullkitten, so my anger is justified.”
I’m sorry, but I just have absolutely no respect for that position.

Your attack on me is so off point I’m at a loss how to explain to you your wrong, it’s like I’m talking about baseball and your saying how great the Kings are.

Their PR is bad yes, do they need to improve yes. But they blatantly ignored feedback and pretended we all loved tempest when its overwhelmingly clear it’s kittening horrible and the community wants changes. Instead okittennowledging this Anet will do nothing. IF they wanted to use the “we cant make changes that big so soon” bull kitten excuse then they could have layered it with the acknowledgment that they WILL BE MAKING CHANGES AND ARE LISTENING. The point I was making is we need to complain until they make a statement saying they will be reworking mechanics of the tempest, fixing the trait line, scrapping our elite or adding serious kittening buffs, and much more.

Go look at the rev forums. That’s how a forum between a dev and consumer base should be, and that’s for all the classes. The fact of the matter is they don’t give a kitten if we like tempest or not, so lets blow up this forum till they have to literally delete it or change their ways and work with us.

Honestly, OP is right.

I totally agree that ANet’s summary of the feedback on the Tempest as “basically positive” was absurd, but at the same time, I can see why they would want to test the same system with bigger numbers. The Necro community was pretty much of one mind about the Reaper (“feels good, needs some tweaks here, here, and here”) whereas the Ele community has only been able to agree that the Tempest needs work, with no clear consensus about how to go about that. Some people think Overloads need to go much bigger, while others think the system needs to be redone, or even scrapped entirely. It does make sense for ANet to spend their development time on the Necro for now (since it’s pretty close to perfect) while amping up the Overloads’ numbers for the next BWE to give themselves another data point. If they boost Overloads to the very brink of insanity and they’re still not good enough, then they’ll have the hard data they need to justify a more serious rework.

Betas are rough, and they are an iterative, asymmetrical process. I agree that ANet’s explanation of what they’re doing was “corporate” at best and willfully deaf at worst, but the actual actions they’re taking for the next BWE are fair. If the Tempest makes it to launch and it’s still terrible, then we’ll have some serious rabble-rousing to do. In the meantime, we need to keep testing and giving feedback as best we can, all while keeping in mind that betas are not perfect.

Their PR is bad yes, do they need to improve yes. But they blatantly ignored feedback and pretended we all loved tempest when its overwhelmingly clear it’s kittening horrible and the community wants changes.

No they didn’t.

They just objectively didn’t. Or at least you have no basis to make that claim, because you are not privy to internal communication on the issue. You have absolutely no idea how much of the feedback they took to heart in designing the forward progression of the class. The changes they did make DID reflect at least some of the feedback, that the Overloads were not powerful enough to justify their opportunity cost, and they also clearly did not take into account a lot of the other feedback, but you have absolutely no idea what other Tempest projects they are working on that might reflect other elements of the feedback. They could have taken down every bullet point of OneKlicKill’s manifesto and are implementing every bit of it as we speak, and you would have no idea because they haven’t said anything either way on the topic.

So while you can accurately claim that the changes currently on the table do not fully reflect all of the feedback provided, you cannot accurately claim that they “ignored the feedback,” or are not taking it into account in the long term design of the class. They implemented the stuff they felt they could comfortably provide by the next beta, they aren’t talking about features that they do not have nailed down yet (as is their SOP), and while they could spend more time discussing the feedback and the forward plans, that is all PR fluff, not action, and I care a lot less about the PR fluff than the action. What matters is where the Tempest is at in BWE3, 4, and launch, not in how they talk about it right this second.

IF they wanted to use the “we cant make changes that big so soon” bull kitten excuse then they could have layered it with the acknowledgment that they WILL BE MAKING CHANGES AND ARE LISTENING.

So basically your whole argument boils down to “I know they couldn’t have done anything substantive to make anything actually better, but they did a poor job with their PR bullkitten, so my anger is justified.”

I’m sorry, but I just have absolutely no respect for that position.

Go look at the rev forums. That’s how a forum between a dev and consumer base should be, and that’s for all the classes. The fact of the matter is they don’t give a kitten if we like tempest or not, so lets blow up this forum till they have to literally delete it or change their ways and work with us.

Yes, that seems to be a very sensible way to build a constructive interaction between the devs and the community. I can’t for the life of me think of why they might not like you guys very much. I wish you all the best in achieving your goals.

Ohoni.6057:

Their PR is bad yes, do they need to improve yes. But they blatantly ignored feedback and pretended we all loved tempest when its overwhelmingly clear it’s kittening horrible and the community wants changes.

No they didn’t.

They just objectively didn’t.

Begging your pardon, but yeah, they did. Or at least it appears they did from what they’ve told us:

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

The concepts behind overloading an element were pretty well received, however you called out that the time cost of overloading compared to the final rewards were too unbalanced. Overloads are intended as potent tools which are not always available – to push this feeling each of them has been given a stronger effect to bring some more parity to the risk vs. reward of using them.

Not everyone here has been of the same mind about how to fix Overloads, but describing the basic concept as “pretty well received” is just flatly wrong. A huge percentage of the talk that’s gone on here about Overloads has been able how the basic concept is flawed: not only will the reward have to be astronomical to account for both the risk and the opportunity costs, but Overloads also compete almost directly with the standard melee D/D playstyle.

I have no objection to spending another BWE to check whether numerical increases will make Overloads more worthwhile, but their explanation for why they’re doing that sure does makes it look like they’ve crammed their fingers in their ears.

Go look at the rev forums. That’s how a forum between a dev and consumer base should be, and that’s for all the classes. The fact of the matter is they don’t give a kitten if we like tempest or not, so lets blow up this forum till they have to literally delete it or change their ways and work with us.

I did also read an thank the the def there per PM adding that each class should have a dedicated def talking to the comunity.

Not everyone here has been of the same mind about how to fix Overloads, but describing the basic concept as “pretty well received” is just flatly wrong.

Depends on who you ask. The forum has been pretty toxic, but they do have other data streams. Besides, this is one guy’s post, it still doesn’t necessarily reflect the moves they’re making behind the scenes.

Vinteros Asteano.1209:

[…]

Finally, thinking of the Tempest stream, I’m pretty sure Karl mentioned that damage on overloads could be increased and the radius of air overload could be increased. It seems these changes are the ones he had in mind back when tempest was streamed. The streamed also mentioned working on unique sounds for warhorn abilities and earth overload’s animation, iirc. Things are being worked on. Offer your feedback, but have a little respect.

Before anyone accuses me of being a Tempest-lover or whatnot, I’m not satisfied with the current state of Tempest. I am extremely dissatisfied with some of the conduct I saw over the weekend though.

Increasing the numbers doesn’t make it better. Tempest doesn’t work. Just play it and you will see that it simply doesn’t work. Also with the upcoming challenging group-content, how will it work. The whole Aura / buff sharing is a nice thing (Although I personally don’t understand what’s so good about auras – my opinion)
How is the elementalist supposed to play in melee range when his HP pool / defense is the lowest in game. When playing mid-range / range, overloads lose their “effectiveness”.

Just read some threads. There are so many good suggestions made by the elementalist’s community.

The devs are people. True, they loved / love the game at some point, true. The problem is more that nowadays it’s not that you create sth “great” and therefore everyone wants to play it because it’s great. You create sth. which does its job in making enough money for the company – this can be seen for instance when pre-purchasing the game was made available or when it was ‘introduced’. I highly doubt that anything was ready back then, still – Point(s) of no return were introduced way too early. I full heartedly agree with what you said that they are just people with their own dreams, plans yada yada..
Complaining about something isn’t bad as long as it is somewhat good feedback.

Ohoni.6057:

Not everyone here has been of the same mind about how to fix Overloads, but describing the basic concept as “pretty well received” is just flatly wrong.

Depends on who you ask. The forum has been pretty toxic, but they do have other data streams.

A fair point. Still, I’d contend that the forum is fairly representative of most player’s opinions (or at least, of those players who have opinions about the Tempest). Furthermore, the extent to which the forum has been negative (both intensely and near-universally) should by itself be enough to invalidate a description of the Tempest as “pretty well received.”

For what it’s worth, the Guild Wars 2 subreddit seems to be pretty much in agreement that the Tempest was profoundly underwhelming as well, and most of the suggestions I’ve seen there go far beyond number tweaks. It’s always possible that ANet has different information streams than we’re aware of, but if the public ones are all in disagreement with your private steams, that disparity really must be addressed or you’ll look like you’re just ignoring everyone.

Ohoni.6057:

Besides, this is one guy’s post, it still doesn’t necessarily reflect the moves they’re making behind the scenes.

Nor did I say it does; on the contrary, my point has been that they’re very probably planning to do even more if the next BWE generates similar feedback in spite of bigger numbers. The BWE2 changes were explicitly small-scale so they could focus on getting the other Elite Specializations up and running, and that’s totally fine.

Still, I take issue with the way you’re trying to undersell Irenio CalmonHuang’s importance by referring to him as “this… one guy.” He’s not some random player, nor is he even just some low-level ANet employee from marketing or art design or something. He’s a game designer, and he’s the person the balance team in charge of the Tempest chose to deliver their reactions to our feedback as well as the changes for the next BWE. His post could not have been more authoritative, nor could it have done a worse job at summarizing our feedback.

Alphard.6529:

PlatinumMember.5274:

OP forgot that beta is about giving feedback and expecting changes. The fact that he is attempting to spin this to mean something different is amazing.

While you can expect changes to be made eventually, you are not entitled to a full list of changes on/by any specific date of your choosing. The devs have already said there will be more changes. This settles the question.

Developers say a lot of things. Second, they never acknowledge any of the problems the tempest has. Finally, compare to the other classes, the changes the tempest got were pathetic. Don’t you find it strange that two of the classes with the most worthless changes just happen to be under the same developer team?

Also this doesn’t settle the problem just because you said so. It might for you, but fortunately people have higher standards than you do. If someone paid money to get into beta in other to provide feedback, it is their right to be heard.

A fair point. Still, I’d contend that the forum is fairly representative of most player’s opinions (or at least, of those players who have opinions about the Tempest).

Forums are almost never representative of the game as a whole. They tend to concentrate highly engaged players, highly competitive players, and highly experimental players in higher numbers than the general population. The Tempest does not work for what a lot of those players are looking for, but that does not necessarily indicate that there are not a lot of players in game who are enjoying themselves.

And the subreddit is basically the same as the forum, just a different venue.

Also this doesn’t settle the problem just because you said so. It might for you, but fortunately people have higher standards than you do. If someone paid money to get into beta in other to provide feedback, it is their right to be heard.

Nobody is arguing that anyone shouldn’t provide feedback, just that there is constructive feedback and pointless whining, and too much of the chatter around here lately has been more of the latter than the former. Pushing for changes and features of the Tempest that you believe would improve the class is constructive, complaining that other classes are currently getting more attention, or that the devs did not phrase their response “respectfully enough” is not.

Ohoni.6057:

A fair point. Still, I’d contend that the forum is fairly representative of most player’s opinions (or at least, of those players who have opinions about the Tempest).

Forums are almost never representative of the game as a whole. They tend to concentrate highly engaged players, highly competitive players, and highly experimental players in higher numbers than the general population. The Tempest does not work for what a lot of those players are looking for, but that does not necessarily indicate that there are not a lot of players in game who are enjoying themselves.

As I qualified: “of those players who have opinions.” I’d imagine a lot of players (especially casual players) had fun messing around with the new mechanics, but they don’t necessarily have much of an opinion about them.

Ohoni.6057:

Nobody is arguing that anyone shouldn’t provide feedback, just that there is constructive feedback and pointless whining, and too much of the chatter around here lately has been more of the latter than the former. Pushing for changes and features of the Tempest that you believe would improve the class is constructive, complaining that other classes are currently getting more attention, or that the devs did not phrase their response “respectfully enough” is not.

This part I can agree with.

Ohoni.6057:

They tend to concentrate highly engaged players, highly competitive players, and highly experimental players in higher numbers than the general population. The Tempest does not work for what a lot of those players are looking for, but that does not necessarily indicate that there are not a lot of players in game who are enjoying themselves.

So the forums contain:
“highly engaged players” = players who understand the class due to experience and dedication

“highly competitive players” = Players who play the class and understand viability

“highly experimental players” = Players who are good at trying new things and figuring out if they work

“but that does not necessarily indicate that there are not a lot of players in game who are enjoying themselves.”
AKA People can still have fun with something that is not viable because the game is easy in pve, so they should cater to this larger playerbase that just cares if a concept is new and shinny, not if its good.

Yeah, think about this. And re-access.

Ohoni.6057:

A fair point. Still, I’d contend that the forum is fairly representative of most player’s opinions (or at least, of those players who have opinions about the Tempest).

Forums are almost never representative of the game as a whole. They tend to concentrate highly engaged players, highly competitive players, and highly experimental players in higher numbers than the general population. The Tempest does not work for what a lot of those players are looking for, but that does not necessarily indicate that there are not a lot of players in game who are enjoying themselves.

And the subreddit is basically the same as the forum, just a different venue.

Also this doesn’t settle the problem just because you said so. It might for you, but fortunately people have higher standards than you do. If someone paid money to get into beta in other to provide feedback, it is their right to be heard.

Nobody is arguing that anyone shouldn’t provide feedback, just that there is constructive feedback and pointless whining, and too much of the chatter around here lately has been more of the latter than the former. Pushing for changes and features of the Tempest that you believe would improve the class is constructive, complaining that other classes are currently getting more attention, or that the devs did not phrase their response “respectfully enough” is not.

some of the monst cringy, tempest hero-ing ive ever seen.

anet fanboy to the maximum. i have the right, all day long, to yell about a broken product I PAID FOR. they are essentially brushing off the entire profession in favor of keeping a crappy, disjointed and confused elite specilization because redesigning the elite spec is hard and time consuming.

well you know what? i paid money for people to be busy working hard and taking time to make a good product. so i have the right to yell as much and as loud as i want to, along with the other 99% of the ele community, about how i paid for a product and I am not getting that said product

AKA People can still have fun with something that is not viable because the game is easy in pve, so they should cater to this larger playerbase that just cares if a concept is new and shinny, not if its good.

Exactly.

All that matters is that the majority of the players are having fun, even if they’re “wrong” to be having fun with something that The Forum clearly disapproves of.

anet fanboy to the maximum. i have the right, all day long, to yell about a broken product I PAID FOR.

You will. You have not paid for the Tempest yet. You will have paid for Tempest on day one of HoT. Today, all you have paid for is access to the beta, and that doesn’t guarantee you that Tempest will even be an option. Four of the classes weren’t even in BWE1. You are not guaranteed that the Tempest in any beta event will meet your expectations, they do not owe you a Tempest that meets your expectations. You can express what your expectations are, and that you’re concerned that it won’t get there, but they do not owe it to you to provide ANY sort of Tempest until HoT launch date.

Even after launch, you did not buy “the Tempest you want,” and they never promised that to you. When you paid, they only promised that the Ele will be getting “an elite spec,” and it will be. It may not be the spec you want to play, but it will be there, and hopefully a lot of other people will enjoy it. If you don’t, then that’s just too bad, hopefully the next round of elite specs will be more to your liking.

Either way, you are getting everything you paid for, whether you like it or not.

Ohoni.6057:

AKA People can still have fun with something that is not viable because the game is easy in pve, so they should cater to this larger playerbase that just cares if a concept is new and shinny, not if its good.

Exactly.

All that matters is that the majority of the players are having fun, even if they’re “wrong” to be having fun with something that The Forum clearly disapproves of.

If that was the case they should not bother trying to balance it at all and just leave it as is, don’t change a kittening thing.
Catering to the new and shinny doesn’t matter because anything they make is new and shiny that’s just unintelligent lazy game design.

If they cater to the forums 100% of people are happy because the people who need specs to be viable are happy as well as everyone else its a win-win instead of a loss-win.

You posts are getting to be very evasive, you should probably stop. You can’t defend the bad gameplay and mechanics of tempest with “well you didnt pay for good mechanics in beta you can complain after release, and well actually no you cant then because you didn’t pay for that either”

That logic is so bad, and the statements are wrong.

People who have “PRE-PURCHASED” -the concept of paying for something now and receiving it later. The access to betas are a bonus of pre-purchase as are other benefits, that is not what was paid for. So someone who pre-purchases, has already purchased, currently owns the game, and will gain access to it upon release. Someone who as already paid for something has full rights to say they are unhappy and request changes. No one has demanded a change for beta 2 yet you bring that up over and over. People have demanded MECHANIC CHANGES, Re-Work, and most importantly COMMUNICATION of when and what these will be. Ever heard of customer support? Well neither has arena net (trust me, they literally will give your account away to hackers and take 3 days to respond)

As paying consumers we deserve to know how our product is doing, what will be done to it, and have the right to ask for changes. As a supplier a-net has the responsibility to meet customer satisfaction. It’s basic business.

Your logic behind you cant complain because you didn’t pay for it is so dumb i’m not sure you an idiot of a genius troll honestly i commended you if your the latter.

Ohoni.6057:

AKA People can still have fun with something that is not viable because the game is easy in pve, so they should cater to this larger playerbase that just cares if a concept is new and shinny, not if its good.

Exactly.

All that matters is that the majority of the players are having fun, even if they’re “wrong” to be having fun with something that The Forum clearly disapproves of.

anet fanboy to the maximum. i have the right, all day long, to yell about a broken product I PAID FOR.

You will. You have not paid for the Tempest yet. You will have paid for Tempest on day one of HoT. Today, all you have paid for is access to the beta, and that doesn’t guarantee you that Tempest will even be an option. Four of the classes weren’t even in BWE1. You are not guaranteed that the Tempest in any beta event will meet your expectations, they do not owe you a Tempest that meets your expectations. You can express what your expectations are, and that you’re concerned that it won’t get there, but they do not owe it to you to provide ANY sort of Tempest until HoT launch date.

Even after launch, you did not buy “the Tempest you want,” and they never promised that to you. When you paid, they only promised that the Ele will be getting “an elite spec,” and it will be. It may not be the spec you want to play, but it will be there, and hopefully a lot of other people will enjoy it. If you don’t, then that’s just too bad, hopefully the next round of elite specs will be more to your liking.

Either way, you are getting everything you paid for, whether you like it or not.

if they are putting a paid beta out. it should by all means be treated as a product that has been paid for. It is already bad enough to you have to pay for a beta to be able to give feedback, beta should be free.

Given that it is a product we have paid for. it is the customers right to demand fixes.

If that was the case they should not bother trying to balance it at all and just leave it as is, don’t change a kittening thing.

Perhaps so. But if they can make changes, and those changes improve it for everyone, then they probably should. My only point is that just because you want a certain change, does not mean that this change is necessary to consider the spec a success. You point out that the Tempest is not the best in all cases, but it doesn’t need to be the best in all cases, most specs aren’t, and any spec that is is likely unbalanced. So long as the Tempest is good enough that players enjoy playing it, it’s good enough.

If they cater to the forums 100% of people are happy because the people who need specs to be viable are happy as well as everyone else its a win-win instead of a loss-win.

I don’t believe this is true at all. The things that forum people tend to care about does not always line up with what the average player tends to care about. Forum users tend to be PvP-heavy, for example, and balancing things for PvP can often lead to them being less fun and useful in PvE (because of course the PvPer’s mantra “well anything can work fine for PvE”).

If the forum users insist on a total overhaul of the core functionality of the Tempest, that might lead to a class that is better received by the average player, or it might not, there’s really no way of knowing at this point.

People who have “PRE-PURCHASED” -the concept of paying for something now and receiving it later.

Yes, but what you and I “pre-purchased,” is not what you seem to think it was. You purchased exactly three things that are relevant to this discussion:

1. You purchased the right to play any of your characters through the HoT content after HoT launches.

2. You purchased the right to upgrade your Elementalist character to “some elite spec.”

3. You purchased the right to play “In the HoT beta events.”

Now, as for point 2, at no point was there any promise as to what that Ele elite spec would be, how it would interact with existing options, or whether you would like where they were going with it. You can offer your feedback, but they do not owe you personally to adapt to your personal feedback, if they feel that doing so would result in a class that is less appealing to their overall audience.

As for point 3, at no point did they even promise that the Tempest would be available during the beta, much less that it would ever be in a “finished” state, and far far less that it would be in a finished state during the first or second beta weekend. It is not their job, and you did NOT pay for, having the Tempest be “best in show” during every phase of the beta, or to receive concierge service throughout the beta. You paid for there to be an Ele elite spec when HoT launches, and anything that occurs prior to that, you did not pay for.

No one has demanded a change for beta 2 yet you bring that up over and over. People have demanded MECHANIC CHANGES, Re-Work, and most importantly COMMUNICATION of when and what these will be.

People have very frequently complained that they are upset that the changes to BWE2 were less for the Tempest than for other classes, as if those were the last changes the class would be getting, even though no cause for such implication was ever given. And of course ANet has not said that they are working on mechanics changes, because they don’t do that, not until they feel the feature is in a functional state. Whatever they are working on, and they are certainly working on something by this point, they are not likely to talk about it until they have designed it, implemented it internally, and tested it to make sure it works. It’s possible they would do otherwise, but it would be a significant break of precedent, and players of this game should know better than to expect it.

As paying consumers we deserve to know how our product is doing, what will be done to it, and have the right to ask for changes. As a supplier a-net has the responsibility to meet customer satisfaction. It’s basic business.

But you are not a customer of HoT, not until HoT launches. You are a customer of the current game, presumably, but the Tempest has nothing to do with the current game. Basically this whole argument is the equivalent of going to a restaurant where for whatever reason you have the option of paying in advance, and you do, and then you spend the next twenty minutes shouting at the kitchen because you don’t like the sounds they’re making, rather than waiting to see when the food is actually delivered to the table.

if they are putting a paid beta out.

They are not putting out a paid beta. They are putting out a beta that paying for their later product grants access to as a bonus. It is impossible to pay any amount that JUST gives you beta access, without also granting access to the finished product, so it cannot be called a “paid beta.” You have no reasonable expectations of the beta experience beyond that you be allowed to participate in it. They can add, remove, buff, or nerf classes within that beta period as they see fit.

Ohoni.6057:

Blah Blah Blah

the only way you can defend the beta is if it was opened to public for free. They knew people would pay to enter even though pre-purchase rewards is the scummiest of tactics,
it is disingenuous to think we have no right to complain.
Paid betas are anti consumerist so If Anet wants to prove they aren’t. They should listen to consumer feedback.

yes I pre-purchased despite knowing I was in part encouraging such actions, But it is worth it to have a voice about the state of the game and the state of it’s features.

the only way you can defend the beta is if it was opened to public for free.

Nope, I can defend it under the current circumstances too!

Paid betas are anti consumerist so If Anet wants to prove they aren’t. They should listen to consumer feedback.

Again, it’s not a paid beta. A paid beta is when they say “if you pay us $10, then you get beta access, and nothing else.” They have not offered that. What they have offered is that if you pre-order the game (which is hardly a new practice in gaming), then you get guaranteed beta access, in addition to getting the game that you paid for when it comes out.

I pre-purchased the game, but would have done so even if the beta wasn’t on the table, because I pre-purchased the game three years ago and have been playing it daily since, and expect to continue doing so for years to come. If you would not have spent $50 on the game if it hadn’t included beta access then I really don’t know what to say about that.

Ohoni.6057:

the only way you can defend the beta is if it was opened to public for free.

Nope, I can defend it under the current circumstances too!

Paid betas are anti consumerist so If Anet wants to prove they aren’t. They should listen to consumer feedback.

Again, it’s not a paid beta. A paid beta is when they say “if you pay us $10, then you get beta access, and nothing else.” They have not offered that. What they have offered is that if you pre-order the game (which is hardly a new practice in gaming), then you get guaranteed beta access, in addition to getting the game that you paid for when it comes out.

I pre-purchased the game, but would have done so even if the beta wasn’t on the table, because I pre-purchased the game three years ago and have been playing it daily since, and expect to continue doing so for years to come. If you would not have spent $50 on the game if it hadn’t included beta access then I really don’t know what to say about that.

Willfull ignorance is not an excuse to ignore that it is a paid beta. Anet knew people would pre purchase to get into the beta. Ergo it is a paid beta/early access what ever you want to call it.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, it’s not a paid beta. A paid beta is when they say “if you pay us $10, then you get beta access, and nothing else.” They have not offered that. What they have offered is that if you pre-order the game (which is hardly a new practice in gaming), then you get guaranteed beta access, in addition to getting the game that you paid for when it comes out.

Ever heard of time-value-of-money?

Willfull ignorance is not an excuse to ignore that it is a paid beta. Anet knew people would pre purchase to get into the beta. Ergo it is a paid beta/early access what ever you want to call it.

You don’t get to make up your own definitions for things, and paid beta is a paid beta, and this is not one because you cannot pay for the beta access alone.

Its marketing and knowing people will preorder for beta access. Playing devils advokat saying you payed for HoT not beta doesn´t help feeling better ;-).

But it’s still an absolute fact that the BWEs are NOT a “paid beta,” regardless of how that fact makes you feel.

Ohoni.6057:

But it’s still an absolute fact that the BWEs are NOT a “paid beta,” regardless of how that fact makes you feel.

Early access then. If it looks like kitten, smells like kitten but called by a different name. it is still kitten.

But the point is, you aren’t paying to play the beta. You’re paying for HoT, you get the beta as the bonus. At most, you’re paying slightly earlier than you otherwise would, but if you’re willing to pay $50 just to get into a beta, then be honest, not paying $50 by launch day wasn’t really on the table, was it?

This is the whole “why do I have to pay for the original GW2 if I already own the game” argument all over again.

Ohoni.6057:

But the point is, you aren’t paying to play the beta. You’re paying for HoT, you get the beta as the bonus. At most, you’re paying slightly earlier than you otherwise would, but if you’re willing to pay $50 just to get into a beta, then be honest, not paying $50 by launch day wasn’t really on the table, was it?

This is the whole “why do I have to pay for the original GW2 if I already own the game” argument all over again.

You don’t seem to understand. Betas are a tool to gather feedback. They are charging people for their feedback. If it was an Open beta, then it would be a whole other story.

Argol Vazin.3061:

They are charging people for their feedback.

These ideas are getting into crazy territory.

Alphard.6529:

Argol Vazin.3061:

They are charging people for their feedback.

These ideas are getting into crazy territory.

Because it’s true? There isn’t much of a conspiracy theory when it is fact.

To give proper feedback, you need to play the beta, To get into the beta, you need to pre-purchase.

Argol Vazin.3061:

You don’t seem to understand. Betas are a tool to gather feedback. They are charging people for their feedback. If it was an Open beta, then it would be a whole other story.

But they aren’t charging players for feedback. If you buy the expansion a little early, they give you an additional ability to participate in beta events. You don’t pay to participate, you don’t have to participate, and if you _do_participate, you don’t have to give them any feedback.