Guild Wars 2

In a recent stream with the dev, it was suggested that they are looking to tone down Lightning Hammer and Frost Bow conjures. Instead of just nerfing them, I say conjure skills as a whole should be looked at.

What should our Conjure skills be?

I remember the early game day where most players would ignore them because of limited charges and cooldowns up until the day people realized the utter cheesiness of using Fiery Greatsword without a target and how Frost Bow’s Ice Storm can just “melt” targets.

They changed the greatsword; fine, the skill was obviously not designed to be used this way in the first place.

Now they are looking at our Frost Bows. And while I want to protect a skill I love using, I can see why they would nerf it; after all, most people conjure the bow, use number 4 and toss it. That in itself shows how unbalanced the skill is; you may as well put “Ice Storm” directly as a utility.

Another problem with balancing conjured weapons is that you get 2 of them; with another player, you have 2 Ice Storms at the same time. So any potential change to them has double the effect.

So, some conjured weapons have skills that need to be toned down but many – if not all of them – could use a buff. However, doing so is dangerous due to their double nature.

Conjure skills require a re-balancing; I suggest that they should be remodeled after Banners. No charges, reworked cooldowns and durations. Only one summoned weapon on the ground but, the weapon can be dropped and picked up at will.

With a change like that, I think you would not need to nerf the overused skills as much as they need now and could even enhance others without fear of the “doubling” effect of current conjures. Aside from direct enhancements to skills, I could see the following:

• Elementalist traits that apply to weapon skills could apply to conjured weapon skills of the mathing element.
• Other profession’s traits could apply to matching conjured weapon type (axe, longbow, shield, hammer, greatsword)
• Add an effect to their spawn location, like the damage from Fiery Greatsword.
• etc.

As ArenaNet says: nothing is off the table. I’m not happy with a straight up nerf to Conjure skills, so I’m making a counter proposal. Use this thread to make yours or add to mine and we will have a better chance to get skills we have fun with without causing balancing headaches to the Devs.

I play mostly PvE: a PvP player’s input would be greatly appreciated.

it doesnt synergize with anything well. They should be focused around defensive utility and not so much as damage. things like, when earth shield is dropped, gain 8s of protection. Heal when ice bow is dropped. Grant 10 stacks of might for lava axe. 8s fury for the hammer.

Cantrips are our oh kitten buttons. conures take too long to be used when really needed. lose the 2nd drop, make it instant cast.

Lava Axe- all the skills are fine but the last 2. this weapon should want to keep enemies at 900 range. making instant cast and getting a much needed burning retreat makes all the difference.

ice bow- this is a heavy chill/heal conjure. deep freeze needs to go. replace it with an on demand water field like staff 3 in water. reduce number of hits with the 4 skill. reduce the radius and add an aoe chill affect. frost fan-increase the arrows released to x14 and widen its arc.

earth shield- gimmicky auto attack. many of the raidus skills dont get much use. increase their radius to match the radius of a meteor. punish people for being near you.

you can make a build where you cant be crit in earth. literally u will sit in earth attunement and use your conjures to win fights. this requires them to provide boons/active defence and regen/heals.

make them like Kits, but with a drop as well, that has a limited time to pick up. I actually wanted to play a conjure support ele when the game first came out.. that never worked out.. because people dont see a reason to pick up my conjures…

Imo it would be interesting to see each conjure just replace one of the attunements:
axe replacing Fire skills, bow water ones etc.

That way you could still switch attunements and use other basic weapon skills in between, the conjure wouldn’t lock you out of using 20 skills but 5. So you can keep using it for a longer time (using other attunements while waiting for conjured weapon skill cd instead of spamming a sub par attack).

Many ele weapon skills have a long CD, so I could see a good use for conjures filling that gap. For example you already used your high CDs on earth focus and don’t have many options in that attunement. You use Earth Shield, for x seconds your earth attunement skillset gets replaced by the earth shield one’s and get access to another set of useful CDs.

Also, this would give eles the option to be more flexible about range.

The summoned weapon picked up by anyone else would work as it is doing now.

Has it been confirmed that there will be a nerf and nothing else added? If so its really disappointing, if not, well, I guess we will have to wait.

Either way I hope conjures are made easier to use, ie instant cast and you get to stow them (maybe it will be tied to f5) so you can switch to your regular skills and back without losing the conjure.

Look at what they’ve done to turrets. It’s way easier to make sure nobody ever use them again than do proper balancing. Seems that they have the same philosophy with the ele conjures.

Sizer.5632:

Has it been confirmed that there will be a nerf and nothing else added? If so its really disappointing, if not, well, I guess we will have to wait.

Nothing has been confirmed and, between that and how they are asking for input on Guardian Elites in the forum right now, that is why I think its the best time to have this conversation.

All we know is that the Devs stated their intention to change the damage on Frost Bow and Lightning Hammer because they are too cheesy and problematic right now. This was said during the Specialization AMA; you can see the details on Dulfy’s site

Their final call isn’t known yet, so let them know what you think.

Xillllix.3485:

Look at what they’ve done to turrets. It’s way easier to make sure nobody ever use them again than do proper balancing. Seems that they have the same philosophy with the ele conjures.

Look what they are doing with Guardian right now: they are asking for direct input on upcoming changes to Elite Tomes

If we just sit down and say: “nothing will ever change the way we want”. Then it’s sure to be that way.

I prefer trying to get my ideas out there; at least then, there’s a chance – however slim – that any future changes will be something based on our feedback.

Say, FrownyClown, when you say:

FrownyClown.8402:

it doesnt synergize with anything well.

You are talking about the current implementation of conjures, correct? Not my own suggestion?

As for the rest, it’s pretty solid feedback! Thanks for being constructive.

Nitross.6987:

Say, FrownyClown, when you say:

FrownyClown.8402:

it doesnt synergize with anything well.

You are talking about the current implementation of conjures, correct? Not my own suggestion?

As for the rest, it’s pretty solid feedback! Thanks for being constructive.

yes i meant its current implementation. it has no trait synergies.

Xillllix.3485:

Look at what they’ve done to turrets. It’s way easier to make sure nobody ever use them again than do proper balancing. Seems that they have the same philosophy with the ele conjures.

Why not just leave them as is then? Its not like they needed a nerf. Not like turrets which did need some kind of a nerf.

There are probably better solutions to turrets which were already countered by tacky condi builds but really lightning hammer is not op and the earth shield needs a buff for pve because in most pve content it is useless. I don’t have suggestions yet . Have suggestions but the trait synergy is always advised.

Edit: and with the power of my chronomancy I replying to a statement below mine I can get over100k FB solo with my FB build! Eat that 100blades warrior!

morrolan.9608:

Xillllix.3485:

Look at what they’ve done to turrets. It’s way easier to make sure nobody ever use them again than do proper balancing. Seems that they have the same philosophy with the ele conjures.

Why not just leave them as is then? Its not like they needed a nerf. Not like turrets which did need some kind of a nerf.

In ANET’s defense, on the FB, I never liked it too much, but then I decided to try the famed FB 4 skill…. that thing is op as hell… 24 hits in a small area drops big enemies like nothing…. I was recently fightning a champion solo and hit with all shots doing 2,5k each… sometimes more… that is at least 60k damage in one fast hitting skill…. Add to it that skill 2 give a lot of vulnerability stacks, with an actually FB designed build you can do way above 60k easily. This is op no way around it.

So the nerf to FB 4 is justified.

Having said that though…. conjurer skills are a very poor choice without stuff op as the above. They remove all the versatility of having the elemental attunments in the class for not so great weapon skills.

For the change I would much rather have ANET just remove Lava Axe and combine the others with FGS as an elite. The elite would then swap between conjured weapons as you swap attunments, preserving the versatility of attunement swap and giving you the conjured weapon sets.

Naturally the skills would need some tweaks, but this could become a very interesting elite that is actually worth a slot.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fFAQJAodhMMqeW6wICf0AbAGpVw4GQA4CWuHsD2gA-TJxHwACeAAn2fYZZAAnAAA

troll conjure tank. might be funny to sit on points and not die.

Sizer.5632:

Has it been confirmed that there will be a nerf and nothing else added? If so its really disappointing, if not, well, I guess we will have to wait.

They also said they wanted to make conjures more useful.

It just so happens that when a profession player hears the word “nerf”, they gain a memory loss debuff. :P

To make conjures more useful, they would make it synergize with other traits and prof mechanics. I won’t mind any nerf if it’s cleverly designed and implemented.

FrownyClown.8402:

Cantrips are our oh kitten buttons. conjures take too long to be used when really needed. lose the 2nd drop, make it instant cast.

Lava Axe- all the skills are fine but the last 2. this weapon should want to keep enemies at 900 range. making instant cast and getting a much needed burning retreat makes all the difference.

ice bow- this is a heavy chill/heal conjure. deep freeze needs to go. replace it with an on demand water field like staff 3 in water. reduce number of hits with the 4 skill. reduce the radius and add an aoe chill affect. frost fan-increase the arrows released to x14 and widen its arc.

earth shield- gimmicky auto attack. many of the raidus skills dont get much use. increase their radius to match the radius of a meteor. punish people for being near you.

Agree completely with instant cast. Rework of fire axe & earth shield mandatory. Ice bow, #4 is overpowered, but the others aren’t that well imo.

The very idea behind conjures was a mistake. They replace all 20 of your weapon skills and take up a utility slot which means that conjures have to be better than a utility and all your weapon skills to be worth using. They have to be broken in some way because of their massive opportunity cost. Turning them into kits would be just as bad for similar reasons except they would have to be heavily nerfed. Not to mention the balancing nightmare of 4 different sets of skills with completely different themes and uses that all just need to have the same cooldowns and number of charges for some reason.

Conjures just need a complete overhaul. The only idea I have is creating a spell on use and giving a passive buff.

Conjure fire: Cast “combustive shot”. For 10 seconds, your fire fields cripple enemies.

Conjure water: Cast healing rain. For 10 seconds, chilling an enemy also applies slow.

Conjure air: Cast windborne speed and daze nearby foes. For 10 seconds, your hard cc skills are unblockable and recharge 50% faster.

Conjure earth: Stunbreak. Weaken and blind nearby foes. For 10 seconds, damage a nearby enemy every time you block or reflect a projectile.

I’d say:
Frost Bow:
-Replace ice storm with a new AoE skill, which doesn’t have that insane multihit nature
-Buff Auto attack

Lightning Hammer:
-Replace lightning storm with a new AoE skill, which is more reliable against single targets and not broken against insanely large static objects

While we are at it:
Earth Shield:
-Complete overhaul

Lava Axe:
-give more utility on 2-5

DiogoSilva.7089:

Sizer.5632:

Has it been confirmed that there will be a nerf and nothing else added? If so its really disappointing, if not, well, I guess we will have to wait.

They also said they wanted to make conjures more useful.

It just so happens that when a profession player hears the word “nerf”, they gain a memory loss debuff. :P

They also remember how fgs was to be “compensated” with the targeted fiery rush hit being buffed substantially.

FrownyClown.8402:

you can make a build where you cant be crit in earth. literally u will sit in earth attunement and use your conjures to win fights. this requires them to provide boons/active defence and regen/heals.

Awful idea Why give them a reason to nerf possibly (for me) the only earth GM trait worth using?. Some cheesy build is something really eles doesn’t need…this class has suffered enough nerfs because of people happy to win with silly and braindead exploits (see all conjures)…so SCREW IT!

Supreme.3164:

FrownyClown.8402:

you can make a build where you cant be crit in earth. literally u will sit in earth attunement and use your conjures to win fights. this requires them to provide boons/active defence and regen/heals.

Awful idea Why give them a reason to nerf possibly (for me) the only earth GM trait worth using?. Some cheesy build is something really eles doesn’t need…this class has suffered enough nerfs because of people happy to win with silly and braindead exploits (see all conjures)…so SCREW IT!

relax dude. its a terrible idea. I tried it in pvp. it was funny, but quite useless.

Sorry if I’ve offended you but it’s easy to see where I’m coming from. The conjure skills are now in this state because of people happy to exploit the kitten out of the game

When people were asking for changes you’d get always some white knight praising so much the icebow and Lhammer, all because they could stack in some dungeon corner and speed run it.

Now..everybody pay for the selfishness of few individuals.

This is another negative aspect of the ele community, as long as it’s good in pve, I don’t care about the rest…so much different from other communities.

Same thing with glyphs, if you go open a thread asking to buff Glyph of storms…you’ll get another white knight from wvw praising the skill..and there you go, subpar utiltiies remain subpar.

Again I’m sorry if I’ve offended you, this rant is not directed to you personally, it’s more of a general feeling

But Supreme, that is how it is for every class. There are some builds/traits/utilities that are PvE only, and that is ok, as long as it is actually good there. For instance, I think 90% of eles are o.k. with LH being a PvE only type utility – the design of the weapon (slow hitting, high damage, melee only) lends itself well to that environment, and will NEVER work on eles in pvp.

The most ANNOYING thing with nerfing conjures, for me, is that they want to change LH b/c it is “cheesy.” I don’t even play the LH build all that often, but it is a different play-style and I see the appeal. It also NEVER struck me as cheesy. It is very well balanced and has a role to fill a niche. The fact that ANet wants to change that shows they REALLY don’t understand what makes the 2 conjures that work, actually viable. Making LH more “average” across the board for weaker auto-attacks, puts it in the same bin as flame ax.

While I kind of understand changes to Icebow, it also upsets me because it was the only conjure (aside from FGS for speed) usable in all game-modes (even though it was niche for pvp).

Most communities DO recognize there are some things that are going to be good only in pve, or wvw, or pvp, with a few options that work across the board. The BIGGEST problem for eles is that the few skills that COULD work across the board just don’t get the design work put into them to make it real. Even worse, many of the utilities that are clearly “this really should be a pvp utility” are not even viable there.