Guild Wars 2

Posted by: Mattmatt.4962

Mattmatt.4962

I first think ele was finnaly getting up (in the good way as fire air and eath path were so bad), until i read water and arcana …. MASSIVE NERF!

But i think i’ve finnally understood: in the dev’ sigh, ele musnt use DD, and have to play staff or Scepter !
That’s the answer bro, we were so blind, but i finnaly saw the light! come with me bro, and just switch weapon!
… or maybe switch class ….

Tempest seems made careful not to make ele better in any way, since that would be bad
…
It does the job well :-)

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Khisanth.2948

Khisanth.2948

JonPeters.5630:
Also thinking 25% cooldown on the alacrity traits so we can move slowly. If we go 30% and have to nerf after that I would not be happy. The diamond skin thing is possible for dec 10th. The cooldown thing on alacrity traits is more likely to be the following patch because it has a lot of testing requirements that concern me.

Jon

I don’t think 25% or even 30% is the way to go. Yes it is better than now but they would remain uninteresting. It would be better if they were in the style of Crack Shot, Forceful Greatsword, Sundering Mace, Merciless Hammer, Quick Breathing, Burning Arrows, Shield Master, Sharpened Axes which is basically all the warrior weapon recharge traits. Warriors aren’t the only ones with those but it’s the one that seems to have the best coverage.

A simple faster recharge would be okay for an adept(but still uninteresting) trait but master traits should do more than just enable skill spam.

On the overall issue of class balance it feels like elementalist has sacrificed a lot of survivability (by having the lowest base armor and health) for nothing and these change do nothing about that. Obviously I would expect you to disagree so what did elementalists has gain for that sacrifice?

Lower health could theoretically be balanced by easier access or better condition removal but that isn’t really case and planned changes seems to be making that worse not better.

Lower armor could be balanced by maybe decent access to Protection or some other form of damage mitigation. There are some damage mitigation options but it feels like I have to sacrifice damage to do so when the damage isn’t particularly high (relative to other classes) to begin with.

I play mainly warrior, engineer, elementalist(mostly staff, s/f for specific mobs and D/D on a separate character for goofing around), thief(in order of more frequent to less) and the rest of the available classes but to a lesser extent. This is for PvE.

There are rarely any situation where I wouldn’t just be able to jump into on my warrior and while I am not always right, I am rarely wrong. On my elementalist I must measure three times and cut once. Even then the outcome uncertain.

That is for soloing. Add in another person and that becomes less of an issue but then is that because an elementalist has better group support or am I just being carried by the other person? I would love play my elementalist more(it was my first character and the one I played the most before really trying the others) but it feels like I’ll be forced to skip some content when soloing.

I guess there is always the possibility that I am a bad elementalist. On the other hand I do not see any possibility for my elementalist to be equal to my warrior in the category of offense, defense, support and versatility(the ability to shift roles without retraiting because retraiting is a hassle even if one is willing to spend gems to retrait due to the lack of templates).

For more concrete comparisons lets take a look at some very similar skills in the two classes.

Healing Signet versus Signet of Restoration
To get Signet of Restoration to be equal to the base HP/s of Healing Signet would require my elementalist to take 1900 Healing Power, I am not even sure if that number is even possible. Even if it was possible that is a huge sacrifice just to mean the base value of basically the equivalent skill in another class and on top of that it would only really be equal when using daggers due to the activation speed of the skills on scepter and staff whereas healing Signet has no restrictions. Healing Signet also has a faster recharge. Written in Stone would allow Signet of Restoration’s passive to be active at all times but a Grandmaster trait should be self balancing. It’s status as a grandmaster trait alone should be enough to balance it with other grandmaster traits by forcing you to not take a different grandmaster trait.

Mending versus Ether Renewal
Mending has a higher base heal but Ether Renewal scales better and has a faster recharge so that is probably okay. On the other hand Ether Renewal’s activation time/channeling is not very desirable. It’s great that it synergizes with Zephyr’s Focus and Obsidian Focus but if you just want to use the base skill for healing and condition removal it has equal chance of killing you and saving you because it takes too long to activate.

The reason I’ve picked warrior and elementalist is to about is because I actually play those so I am familiar with them and because they are at opposite ends of the extremes when it comes to baseline defense.

Since I play both it is obviously wrong to interpret any of this to mean “please nerf warriors”.

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Quick Mouse.7635

Quick Mouse.7635

@Jon
Please see cmc’s analysis of the ele changes in this vod (discussion starts at ~16minutes)
http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2pvptv/b/475861123

Cheers
A sad ele since beta

Tactical Fury [TF] – Late NA/early OCX driver (SoS)
Spirit of Faith [HOPE] – RIP

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Nanynek.6420

Nanynek.6420

While doing balance changes, does anyone considered inconsistency in traits/skills through different classes? For example:

Terra Dactyl.2047:
Teleports:
Blink: 30s cd, breaks stun. Can be traited for 1200 range.
Lightning flash: 40s cd, doesn’t break stun. Can’t be traited for 1200 range.
Thief: Let’s not even go there.

CC duration reduction:
Ele- Geomancer’s Freedom: Reduce duration of crippled, immobilized, and chilled by 33%. Major 20 point trait
Warrior- Dogged March: Same as above, plus regen. Major 10 point trait.

Invuln:
Ele- Mist form: 3s invuln, 75s cd. can’t use other skills for duration, can’t cap points. Can’t trait for automatic mist form at certain hp threshold.
Engineer- Elixer S: Same as above, 60s CD. Can trait to get a second elixer S automatically.
Warrior- Endure pain: 4s invuln, can use other skills and cap points. 60s CD. Can trait to get a second endure pain automatically.

Gap closers/creators:
Ele- RTL: 20s cd, 40s if you miss, lag, get blocked, your opponent dodges, or you didn’t pick a target because you were trying to use it to run away.
Warrior- Rush: 20s cd. Period.
Ranger- Swoop: 12s cd. period.

X on dodge traits:
Ele- 30 point major trait (has an internal CD)
Mesmer and ranger- 20 point major trait
Guardian- 15 point minor trait
Necro- 10 point major trait (only other one with an internal CD)
Warrior and engineer- 5 point minor trait
Thief- 5 point minor for swiftness, 15 point minor to return some endurance after dodging, 10 point major for might on dodge, 10 point major to drop caltrops.

Passive movement speed boosts:
Ele- Windborne dagger. only 25% movement increase with d/d (15% with d/f, 10% with s/d) 20 point major (will be 10 point): doesn’t work outside of combat
Warrior- Warrior’s sprint. 25% movement speed increase on any set besides rifle or longbow. 10 point major. Works outside of combat.
Necro- Quickening thirst. 20 point major. Identical to windborne dagger except it works outside of combat.

tl;dr:
in most cases we have to invest more points to get a weaker version of something another profession has, on a longer cooldown. Clearly our vigor on crit trait was too close to being equal to mesmer and guardians’ so it had to be nerfed. Next will probably be soothing mist since it’s better than warriors’ regen trait when they have 0 adrenaline.

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Alilinke.7690

Alilinke.7690

Zelyhn.8069:
Can we get more information on the bugfix of Lingering Elements please?

Tool tip fix, I’m guessing.

[nA] Professional Guild Hall Decorator

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Gallrvaghn.4921

Gallrvaghn.4921

Build diversity for an ele as being shown in these upcoming changes translates to nerfing the barely viable builds the ele has and opening up the opportunity to create gimmicky however still useless builds. The nerfs to Water and Arcana trees are understandable if you really want people to move away from these two trait lines but the buffs the other trait lines are having are still not that good to justify the nerfs. You’re just gutting the already dead eles with these upcoming changes.

These changes would be fine by me and I would gladly opt out of Arcana and Water if the base survivability of ele is doubled. Try playing zerker ele with your proposed changes. Wearing a zerker amulet on an ele is an automatic one-shot from eviscerate it’s not even funny.

“The boss you just killed respawns ten minutes
later. It doesn’t care that I’m there.”

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Zelyhn.8069

Zelyhn.8069

Until we know how Lingering Elements are going to be fixed there is no way to evaluate the arcana changes.

Zelyhn.8069 [rT]
Retired elementalist theorycrafter

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: ImProVocateur.5189

ImProVocateur.5189

Elementalist gives alternatives. Let us be clear about this: versatility means role diversity.

Here is one test:
The d/d Elementalist is a magical assassin. It is the counterpart of a thief. The skills should be equivalent. The playtesting could literally make them use the same skill set, while the Elementalist survival options are balanced against the thief’s stealth and stealth-supporting abilities. Obviously, the different attack options would be compared after the survivability is balanced. If someone is thinking that the Ele “must be weaker”, then that is the design flaw that has led to the problem now – weaker in every way. If the Ele must lose effectiveness at the cost of versatility, then isn’t a 5% nerf a reasonable fix?

Here is another test:
The lowest armor + health is the fair tradeoff for the highest armor + health if the first has stronger skills. If the game concept requires that one be inherently more survivable, then the skills should be equal offensively. If one of the two has no ranged option and no gap closers, then the offensive options can be slightly unbalance to favor the one with no ranged skills. The warrior has ranged, gap closers, invulnerability and superior healing. That is beyond sufficient. A one to one comparison of every five skill sets should result in the class with the lowest armor + health having substantially more offense. You will see it is opposite this sure logic.

My three suggestions:
1. Diamond Skin should be Water Crystal. That coincides with water as the cleansing line, and synergizes with the Vitality need. Toughness has horrible efficiency for an Ele. I once ran full toughness and had 3600 Armor while channeling. I still got killed before Churning Earth finished casting. Make an amazing protect AndOr regen, instead, that severely mitigates damage while the Ele is above 90% Health. More synergy.
2. Remove the slag. Element specific traits and broken traits have combined to severely limit Ele options. Restore the broken traits to their former glory before considering tier changes, and combine the element-dedicated traits into one decent 25 point trait in each line.
3. Back when Windborne Dagger would apply its speed permanently I was happy that, if nothing else, I could enjoy rapid movement. After it was changed to its now useless state I stopped working toward world completion. Make Windborne Dagger apply its speed augmentation permanently.

Please [LIKE] this post if you agree.

(edited 2013-11-03 10:50:40 by ImProVocateur.5189)

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Dweia Tulenhenki.8127

Dweia Tulenhenki.8127

Well, the problem with elementalist is the survivability.
I’ve been playing about 1300h, died 1300 times with my ele.

Haven’t completed the story as some of the missions are way too difficult to play yourself. Like the Defending Claw Island, tried 10 times, then needed guild mates and waited that my ele is lvl 80 with exotic gears. (Manged to solo it with my lvl 50 necro).

It took 1300 h to do map completion and I’m still afraid to run alone in Orr & Malachor ie. trying to avoid combat at any cause.

And I’m always the first one to be downed in dungeons. Feel like the elementalist survivability is the worst in the game. I know the ele is the most difficult to play, but after these changes I might quit playing ele and change to another more easier class

My build might not be optimal, but
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEQQFAWhEmabwR5gjDAkCmIeYhDSUeMzO2A-jUCBIjAEEAJfFRjtMKIVXRr8KsqaCpabYqYRWGAmxA-w

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Wolfin.8935

Wolfin.8935

JonPeters.5630:
Jon

Dimond skin
on SPVP
90% is too low
85% is too low
80% normal but then you have other problem some bilds like (necro fear) cant hit you. Of course they can call for help ally warrior or thief but 1×1 it will be hard for them.

Arcana
Without vigor ele on spvp starts take bunch of damage which should not be.
Boons needed too but vigor is primal.

P.S. Why you cant just combine all weapons traits in 1 trait?
P.S.S. I have a few suggestions about eles utilitys and traits. I can post they here if you interested. Sry for bad english :P

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: iriyabran.6218

iriyabran.6218

I think elemental attunement shouldn’t be a trait at all but a profession mechanic similar to the guardian’s aegis. Ele is like the crippled version of a guardian anyway.

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: BlackDevil.9268

BlackDevil.9268

How is the new ‘’diamond skin’’ worth picking when you get down to 90% hp really fast? It’s not like you gonna waste your healing skill for 10% hp, so you’re forced to play with the signet. And even with this trait, getting down to 90% by condition specs is pretty easy for most of them, since most classes as condition spec can easily get 2k hp from you.

The biggest problem with this trait is that it wont work with ele. Why?
You give ele the lowest base hp possible. While you say you want to get ele on a level that it can survive without healing power and still be able to deal damage (Which the ele already can’t do), you give them a trait that requires the ele to stay at 90% hp to have a decent chance against the condition #1 spamming bots? How is 1.6k hp (10% of what’s about average at eles) going to save you against all the conditions that follow after?

Not to mention that the trait becomes almost useless when fighting 1v2 and there’s 1 thief/warrior/mesmer/ranger…. eh… any class that’s specced on a bit power. 90% hp is not even close to worth picking in any form of WvW.

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Dweia Tulenhenki.8127

Dweia Tulenhenki.8127

cheshirefox.7026:
Dweia Tulenhenki.8127:
Well, the problem with elementalist is the survivability.
And I’m always the first one to be downed in dungeons. Feel like the elementalist survivability is the worst in the game.

not just dungeons
if you’ve ever been in a skirmish, pvp or wvw.. and heard someone say “kill ele first”
you just might be playin’ gw2

Currently rank 50 in wvwvw. And I feel like I’m just running around not helping my zerk as much as I could. It’s frustrating than when commander needs support, ele is already down :p

If ele is low health, low armory, then it needs much more other capabilities. Have to say that I have liked a lot playing necro (lvl 52 at the moment). It has much better survivability

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: iriyabran.6218

iriyabran.6218

cheshirefox.7026:

‘lingering elements’ ‘elemental attunement’ ‘minor Master – fire, air, and earth’
One of these should be an intrinsic elementalist mechanic, ArenaNet
lingering element’s makes the most sense, and elemental attunement should remain an adept trait

Or make lingering a class mechanic and put elemental attunement in it’s place.
It’s still a nerf for those who won’t be choosing larger AoE but at least 5 points less than the trait going master.

P.S To balance with the vigor on crit trait like others have suggested it can be moved to Air master lets say. To ensure spreading the trait points.

(edited 2013-11-03 12:45:27 by iriyabran.6218)

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Mattmatt.4962

Mattmatt.4962

JonPeters.5630:
P.S. bug fix for Lingering Elements is coming on Nov. 26th as well.

Thank you!
I’m the first to yell when i’m unhappy, but i’m also the first too congratulate when things go good.
That’s mean that stone flesh’s up is meaningfull. It also power-up percing shard

I now only hope that you will let renewing stamina to adept tier. DD elementalist NEEDS both protection (from elemental attunment) and vigor to survive. If you decide to switch both trait, you just kill finally DD wich has been already over-nerfed.

Tempest seems made careful not to make ele better in any way, since that would be bad
…
It does the job well :-)

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

What about:

Renewing Stamina
Adept tier
4s of vigor on a 6s cooldown

This would be a slight nerf to justify it being at adept tier, BUT an elementalist could increase its uptime by investing more points into arcana (30 arcana = ~6s every 6s?). Best compromise? It would be a possible solution to tone down dodge spamming without destroying some elementalist’s build survival.

I would also suggest this change for all other vigor-on-crit traits in this game, so all of them would be under the same premise: “Want perma-vigor? Invest on boon duration.”

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: ImProVocateur.5189

ImProVocateur.5189

Diamond Skin,
You want an idea? OK. You are correct, 90% makes it a skill that will be rofled after the patch. You are also correct, that a well protected support Ele could make it appear OP. I honestly think 50% is not too low of a threshold to excuse 30 points in Earth, but there is another option for the skill that will appeal to high Power and high Health specs.

Diamon Skin – gains a chance to reflect conditions inversely with health percent until dropping below the threshold. [threshold = 25%].

The reflect condition chance would be 0% at 100% Health and 50% at 50% Health. As an optional secondary bonus it could make the Ele immune to blind while above the threshold as well. This will insure the Ele applies up-front damage.

(edited 2013-11-03 13:06:34 by ImProVocateur.5189)

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Mattmatt.4962

Mattmatt.4962

I just reallize something:

JonPeters.5630:
Aquamancer’s Alacrity
We moved this trait because all profession cooldown traits are in master tier, and because that is a good investment for this type of improvement. That being said, they may all not be powerful enough to warrant a master level triat right now, but I would rather increase the cooldown to 25% to get people to consider them than to have them be adept tier and allow elementalists to run all four of them.

The fact is that you CAN’T compare alatracity trait to “reduce CD on X weapon” trait from other class for this reason: for other classes, this kind of trait reduce CD on 50% of their skills, were for ele its only 25% of our skills. In addition, they ALWAYS got another buff like +X to Ystat, or things like that.
examples:
great sword training for mesmer: 20% CD AND +50power
warden’s feedback for mesmer: 20% CD AND reflect projectile
honorable shield for guardian: 20% CD AND 90toughness
etc.

Our “reduce CD” trait are weaker, so they don’t have to be in master tier because others are in.

In my mind, alatracity trait should disappear, and the reduce on CD should be the bonus from arcana but at the cost 1%/2point or maybe 1%/3point as a total of 15% on 4skill bar could be too strong. (and obvsiouly, CD on attunement should be “perma-traited”)

Tempest seems made careful not to make ele better in any way, since that would be bad
…
It does the job well :-)

(edited 2013-11-03 13:22:44 by Mattmatt.4962)

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Chem.8712

Chem.8712

The Best change in ele is Diamond Skin, that’s make ele have a brand new play role in either pve / pvp+wvw, good job Anet
but above 90% is too low, since there are tons of skills can get below this in one hit, not even mention in group fight
I think 75-80% is standard
because condition damages are not affect by armor, maximum life pool is the key factor to survive in conditions fight, but ele has lowest life pool and armor
there will be great to see some hit and run build for ele, deal conditions to enemy and take none conditions would be feels like a Grandmaster of Conditions

For Arcane change, I would say that isnt good enough, but still good, considering more viable traits to spend on other trait line, but the problem is, to a DD dodge roll build ele, Arcane 30 is a must plus crit for vigor traits, as a DD ele mobile is everything, but moving Windborne Dagger to adept isn’t make this Trait more popular to DD ele, because of the speed bonus 15% for both handed Dagger is too low, if change it into 15% for one, 25% for both will be solve the problem

but still, a great Traits changes and again, good job Anet, keep it up
looking forward to Weapons/unity skill change or new skills would be more appreciated

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: helheim.6953

helheim.6953

JonPeters.5630:
That being said, Elemental Attunement is just a beast of a trait and could honestly be compared with most grandmaster traits.

Jon, thank you for participating and encouraging this discussion.

But with all due respect, I think you are wrong here. Elemental Attunement gives you only a single boon per attunement switch, that is, 1 Might or Swiftness or Regeneration or Protection.
Just for comparison, warrior’s “Great Justice” Utility skill gives you 3 Might permanently if timed correctly.

But why do so many elementalists take Elemental Attunement then?

I do it because of the access to Regeneration and I don’t think that’s a Grandmaster Trait or even elite skill. And if you have a closer look you see that elementalists have no easy access to regeneration.

There is one on glyph of elemental harmony, but this has no condition removal and with water trait XI (cleansing water) that’s even worse than ether renewal. And you would have to use a trait and a heal utility for it, in order to keep condition removal.

Then there is water trait X (soothing wave), but you have to trigger it with a utility skill (for example signet of water). The same with water III (soothing disruption), which needs a cantrip as utility. If you want to combine that with water trait XI, then you need two traits and a utility for access to the removal of 1 condition.

As for weapons, well, regeneration is only on staff water 5 and trident water 4, not on dagger, scepter, or focus.

They only way out of this complicated mess is this crutch Elemental Attunement, which gives you easy access to regeneration and let you efficiently use for example grandmaster water trait XI.

And I am not thinking about spvp or tpvp here, but wvw with zergs, large groups, I gave up on builds not using elemental attunement here, so I would be forced into arcana 20 anyway.
(Otherwise I can’t take arcane abatement with water 30, if I want cleansing wave and cleansing water, but need a regeneration trigger trait as well).

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: miriforst.1290

miriforst.1290

JonPeters.5630:
Right now I am thinking 85% on diamond skin as high health eles could break this at 80% imo.

Also thinking 25% cooldown on the alacrity traits so we can move slowly. If we go 30% and have to nerf after that I would not be happy. The diamond skin thing is possible for dec 10th. The cooldown thing on alacrity traits is more likely to be the following patch because it has a lot of testing requirements that concern me.

Jon

Im sorry what??

Have you ever seen the heaps of complaints thrown against Automated Response?

Im a user of it in both wvw and spvp (zerk/knight tanky hybrid and warrior/necro commatmebros bunker in respectively) and i would argue that it is not overpowered, even if i can understand the arguments against it. This is. You know why? Because using AR to its full extent you have to actively juggle your health to not be to much nor to little. If im using it against a necro for example i first try to eat a nice stack of bleed without too many cover conditions, then i use gear shield to soften the descent, i stunbreak if necessary and i try to cleanse the conditions applied. Then i have to calculate my healing and maintenance to never rise above 25% health as one condiburst at that level coupled with a fear can send me spinning into the other limit awfully fast. And the lower bound is composed by death. Any power user can make my life a misery if they decide to lend a hand and i have to constantly evaluate the combat situation. I find it ironic that one of the counters against it was the transmute trait that gave you regen from bleeds, meaning that if the target leaved me alone for a few seconds and then bursted i would be in trouble, but with the nerf to that i won’t get as much regen anymore so i can’t really make that argument. Anyways now how is this trait different? Lets compare: what happens if the engi sinks below 0% hp? He dies. What happens to the ele? He still got 90%health left and can easily clean and heal up to correct his mistake. What happens if the engineer goes above 25% health? He can now be condibursted again, just like the ele when below 90%, its just the problem that the engineer is at 25% health and the ele is at 90%, and its easier to heal up than to sink down in a controlled manner, and if there is one thing eles are good at its playing HP rollercoaster, so getting back up would not be a problem. I find AR to be a really fun and potent trait that requires a LOT of active play to use, but this is essentially just AR+++ with none of the risks involved.

but then you don’t really remember that we got that grand master trait do you?

I think making it a bit more universal at a larger gap (say 80%) with -25-33% direct damage, -40% condition duration as a hybrid between AR and bark skin with the advantage of not having the risk element involved would make it a potent and universal grandmaster without stealing the spotlight of the other two which are more risky and should equal more reward in their respective fields.

TL:DR

Make it a more universal, less risky trait than bark skin and Automated response.
While above 80% health, take 25% less direct damage and conditions applied to you last 40% shorter.
this makes it a extremely potent tough-guy trait when combined with runes for further condition reduction and protection, but it does not completely steal the spotlight of the more specialized and risky barkskin and automated response, allowing them to coexist.

Purity of purpose.

(edited 2013-11-03 13:50:50 by miriforst.1290)

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: HypnoticEyes.2683

HypnoticEyes.2683

First of all: Glad to see the general idea about this re-balancing. It makes build variety a better option for sure as well as different styles of play to come up against in combat.

JonPeters.5630:
Summation of high risk concerns for elementalist.

Diamond Skin
We really love this trait as it opens up some very powerful potential in the earth line to run a defensive elementalist without relying on healing power. The strength of this build is going to be the ability to quickly string small heals together to maintain that condition resistance. I think it could see use in both high damage builds looking to avoid weakness and blind, as well as in defensive builds looking to tank condition heavy classes and condition heavy mobs. I think the big question here is the base health/armor of the elementalist. Of course if you are just an elementalist you just want us to raise these, but balance must work around some fixed things and profession health and armor are an important part of defining what a profession is so that we can create powerful tools that players can actively use to circumvent these weaknesses. In this case if this trait is not powerful enough to be a grandmaster, I believe the right answer is going to be to lower the threshold, not to increase elementalist base health.

Elementalist got plenty access to armor and hp, without sacrificing that much dps. With the build I’m using I got 3.1k armor I can keep up permanently with 17k+ hp using s/f. It requires a bit of thinking out of the box perhaps to make the build work wonders, but it sure does. The change to Diamond skin is something that makes me worry though, despite I could probably make good use for it myself.

Using s/f you got obsidian flesh to negate all damage for 5 seconds already, which obviously works wonders when zergs clash for example. If you combine it with diamond skin now you can pretty much ignore the first impact, resist cc effects for a few seconds after that due to diamond skin, while causing mayhem all the time for " free", even saving 2 dodges in the process. Also the synergy with mist form is quite obvious as you wouldn’t be able to get stunned in mist form when using it at the right time.

Could it be an option to lose the diamond skin effect when transformed?

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: zencow.3651

miriforst.1290:
What happens to the ele? He still got 90%health left and can easily clean and heal up to correct his mistake.

Once brought below the limit, the ele could easily eat a few condi stacks which would promptly break the Diamond Skin again.

A PvT ele in sPvP, which does joke damage only has 17k and up to 20k with more Water Magic. A 10% threshold of 1.7-2k is incredibly easy to overcome, with Clerics/Valkyrie/Shaman it sits at 12-14k and even easier to break by ANYTHING. Eles used to be able to sit at 90% for Vital Striking but that was before Signet of Restoration got nerfed to the ground and given over to warriors.

Shaman/Cleric Engi have 18k health and sits comfortably with a 4.5k Health threshold which is far far more forgiving and of course the option to go PVT for 23k health and a 5.7k threshold.

Quasi-elitist dungeoneer and missing Gw1 GvGs greatly.
“GW2’s PvE is almost as bad as the PvP.”

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

zencow.3651:
Eles used to be able to sit at 90% for Vital Striking but that was before Signet of Restoration got nerfed to the ground and given over to warriors.

I wouldn’t say a slight 14%(?) nerf meant the signet was “nerfed to the ground”, especially considering how useful it still is. Of course, on the other hand, Warrior’s Healing Signet is an offense, but we don’t need to be elementalists to realize this.

With 30 points in earth, a Valkyrie amulet ele is going to have all the toughness it needs, and some access to healing. I personally prefer healing power over vitality – it makes it easier to get back to full hp, even if it’s easier to get out of it. With some points in water magic for extra healing and regeneration, you could still invest the remaining points in air for some burst damage. Add in runes of scholar and sigil of accuracy. 20 air, 30 earth, 15 water and 5 arcana for the fury to burst.

It would be close to the 20 air, 20 water, 30 arcana s/d burst builds. It should have the same burst power, and when you can kill fast and heal back to full health once, Diamond Skin can shine because the opponent would have to spend valuable seconds NOT bursting you with conditions.

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Xernth.8561

Xernth.8561

mjharrison.3209:
JonPeters.5630:
Elemental Attunement is just a beast of a trait and could honestly be compared with most grandmaster traits.

Thing is, if Elemental Attunement is master level, a very large proportion of Eles will feel compelled to spec 20+ arcane, and if you’re 20 into arcane, you might as well get Evasive Arcana as well, and we’re back where we are now.

A better solution IMO would be either:

make a caster-only version of Elemental Attunement baseline to all Eles, and make an AOE trait for it in its place.

to redistribute Elemental Attunement’s bonuses among all 4 elements, replacing or combining with the existing 5pt traits.

I think a good compromise would be to place Renewing Stamina back in the adept tier

Sure, but IMO Ele is not Ele without Elemental Attunement and refactoring/rethinking that change is the single most important thing in all the proposals after the switch timer reduction.

This is the best post so far. Jon you’re right, Elemental Attunement is vital for any Elementalist, please don’t reduce my trait points to 50 by requiring me to spend 20 in Arcana for every build.

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Gorni.1764

Gorni.1764

Mattmatt.4962:
JonPeters.5630:
P.S. bug fix for Lingering Elements is coming on Nov. 26th as well.

Thank you!
I’m the first to yell when i’m unhappy, but i’m also the first too congratulate when things go good.
That’s mean that stone flesh’s up is meaningfull. It also power-up percing shard

So will it work with other traits than the 5P-minors?

Rachat – Elementalist (Abbadon’s Mouth)

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: zencow.3651

DiogoSilva.7089:
zencow.3651:
Eles used to be able to sit at 90% for Vital Striking but that was before Signet of Restoration got nerfed to the ground and given over to warriors.

I wouldn’t say a slight 14%(?) nerf meant the signet was “nerfed to the ground”

Ahem, it used to be 250 with just 30 water, up to 330 with clerics amulet. Then it was nerfed down to 220 with 30 water healing power scaling was nerfed again and then they finally applied the 18% reduction for sPvP to 168 base as it is today, 180 with cleric amulet.

Evasive Arcana also let it apply 4 times in one dodge which they also fixed without taking that into account before they nerfed SoR.

The fastest ele skill cast time is Dragon’s Claw at 1 attack per second. NONE of the ele attacks are as fast as displayed on the tooltip, meaning the only times it applies more than once a second is upon attuning, using arcane skills and auras and other instant cast skills.

Quasi-elitist dungeoneer and missing Gw1 GvGs greatly.
“GW2’s PvE is almost as bad as the PvP.”

(edited 2013-11-03 14:37:24 by zencow.3651)

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: zencow.3651

DiogoSilva.7089:
zencow.3651:
Eles used to be able to sit at 90% for Vital Striking but that was before Signet of Restoration got nerfed to the ground and given over to warriors.

I wouldn’t say a slight 14%(?) nerf meant the signet was “nerfed to the ground”, especially considering how useful it still is. Of course, on the other hand, Warrior’s Healing Signet is an offense, but we don’t need to be elementalists to realize this.

With 30 points in earth, a Valkyrie amulet ele is going to have all the toughness it needs, and some access to healing. I personally prefer healing power over vitality – it makes it easier to get back to full hp, even if it’s easier to get out of it. With some points in water magic for extra healing and regeneration, you could still invest the remaining points in air for some burst damage. Add in runes of scholar and sigil of accuracy. 20 air, 30 earth, 15 water and 5 arcana for the fury to burst.

It would be close to the 20 air, 20 water, 30 arcana s/d burst builds. It should have the same burst power, and when you can kill fast and heal back to full health once, Diamond Skin can shine because the opponent would have to spend valuable seconds NOT bursting you with conditions.

You realise that would only leave you with 1.2k health? A few random hit will get you below 90% easily, let alone 85% if Peters delivers a compromise.

Your spike won’t be enough to kill anything non-glassy and you will run out of mini-heals to keep up the 90% health. Once below that threshold, if the opponent manages to land a few condis on you and you don’t have CF, it would again bring you below 90%.

The uphill battle is already vivid in my mind and until I see otherwise in action once the update actually hits, that’s my stance on Diamond Skin.

Quasi-elitist dungeoneer and missing Gw1 GvGs greatly.
“GW2’s PvE is almost as bad as the PvP.”

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: zencow.3651

Burning Fire is also incredibly niche for Diamond Skin. If you don’t take it it’s pretty much: hurray, auto-cleanse gone 2 hits into the fight, back in 40 seconds. Hurray! You just wasted 20 trait points that could’ve gone elsewhere more useful sucker, enjoy your Flame Barrier while you’re at it.

Keep Soothing Disruption at adept so above trait could be abit more useful.

Quasi-elitist dungeoneer and missing Gw1 GvGs greatly.
“GW2’s PvE is almost as bad as the PvP.”

(edited 2013-11-03 15:00:06 by zencow.3651)

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Kamui.3150

Kamui.3150

Mattmatt.4962:
I just reallize something:

JonPeters.5630:
Aquamancer’s Alacrity
We moved this trait because all profession cooldown traits are in master tier, and because that is a good investment for this type of improvement. That being said, they may all not be powerful enough to warrant a master level triat right now, but I would rather increase the cooldown to 25% to get people to consider them than to have them be adept tier and allow elementalists to run all four of them.

The fact is that you CAN’T compare alatracity trait to “reduce CD on X weapon” trait from other class for this reason: for other classes, this kind of trait reduce CD on 50% of their skills, were for ele its only 25% of our skills. In addition, they ALWAYS got another buff like +X to Ystat, or things like that.
examples:
great sword training for mesmer: 20% CD AND +50power
warden’s feedback for mesmer: 20% CD AND reflect projectile
honorable shield for guardian: 20% CD AND 90toughness
etc.

Our “reduce CD” trait are weaker, so they don’t have to be in master tier because others are in.

In my mind, alatracity trait should disappear, and the reduce on CD should be the bonus from arcana but at the cost 1%/2point or maybe 1%/3point as a total of 15% on 4skill bar could be too strong. (and obvsiouly, CD on attunement should be “perma-traited”)

I’ve personally long held the belief that traits that are just -20% CD to something should be Adept tier, with -20%+Effect being Master and Grandmaster tier. For example, if Written in Stone were to be merged with Signet Mastery, that would likely make far more Elementalists use it and Signets as a whole (I wager very few use Signet Mastery on its own) whereas you could put Cantrip Mastery and Soothing Disruption together in the Master tier. This could also apply when a trait lowers the CD of multiple setups, like how Ranger has Quick Draw at Master tier to lower CD of both Longbow and Shortbow.

Merging traits appropriately (like with Written in Stone + Signet Mastery) could make for a good QoL change for all professions, not just Elementalists.

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

zencow.3651:
You realise that would only leave you with 1.2k health? A few random hit will get you below 90% easily, let alone 85% if Peters delivers a compromise.

Your spike won’t be enough to kill anything non-glassy and you will run out of mini-heals to keep up the 90% health. Once below that threshold, if the opponent manages to land a few condis on you and you don’t have CF, it would again bring you below 90%.

The uphill battle is already vivid in my mind and until I see otherwise in action once the update actually hits, that’s my stance on Diamond Skin.

This “spike that can’t kill anyone” has been meta in pvp for months, before the June patch. It stopped being used with the new pvp meta, but I can assure you that the spike is pretty strong. It has been, after all, widely used by top pvp players. With the nerfs to some of the meta builds, it’s possible that this non-fresh air spike will be meta again.

The only difference between my version and the popular version, is that it trades some sustain defense, with the loss of evasive arcana, elemental attunement and 5 extra points in water, to get more damage and condition immunity within the duration of the spike. It’s a more radical version, but it should be enough to hurt really hard some of the condition builds from safety.

Anyways, if it’ll trully work or not, no idea. :P

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Grevender.9235

Grevender.9235

Jon, thanks for finally showing up and talking with us
in reply to your first post:

Diamond Skin : considering how easy is to drop our HP, I would consider equipping this trait only with a lower threshold (85% is imho still very low and easy to break, but I perfectly understand your concern about not wanting to create rage in the future if toning down become necessary). What’s sure is that setting its threshold at 90% will not convince many ppl at using it as it would be basically useless for a grandmaster trait (unless you are watching the sky from Stonemist Castle, you will not have 90% health up for much time…)

Aquamancer’s Alacrity : raising it to 25% in exchange of moving it to Master tier is a fair trade

Cleansing Wave : I am totally up for drastically changes and prefer you guys focus on making Soothing Wave a trait worth of Master Tier

Arcane Abatement : although moving it is welcomed, have you ever thought about completely getting rid of falling damage reduction linked to a single trait line and actually allowing some kind of synergies to “trigger” the same result? Especially for the WvW folks (like me) who are constantly running on the map it would be much more welcome, and would free us from the feeling of being “forced” to choose something that we wouldn’t choose otherwise. Do you remember what you did with Magic Find? this is somehow the same.

Soothing Disruption vs Cantrip Mastery : Elementalist has been bound to cantrips for too much time, especially after having lost most of our mobility, because it’s one of the very few ways to stay alive. My opinion is that a more complex work will be required to give us true freedom.

Arcana : move back Renewing Stamina to adept tier, promote Elemental Attunement to Master tier (but raise proportionally its effects). Final Shielding is not yet worth of being a Master major trait, but if it gets boosted its ok -for me- to move it.

Agree about Fire trait line, it really needs a lot of love (will we ever see a very high damage output Elementalist? it’s perfectly fine for me to be squishy if this is the tradeoff for extremely, insanely high damage).
It’s true that Air and Water grandmasters traits are the best currently, Arcana once was before the Great Nerf. Earth looks promising, let’s see how things roll.

p.s: minor traits (5)(15) ecc will ever have some love too?

regards o/

Grevender’s Youtube Channel

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

Incase nobody saw this nugget. It is in the larger General discussion thread on these changes.

JonPeters.5630:
Jacks.5367:
Well.. Since there’s gonna be a rework to Elementalist to access to windborne dagger. Can this be buffed that it work in and out-of combat?

I added this idea to my list of stuff to discuss Monday as I think it would be a fine buff to this trait.

Now this makes it worth considering to take that trait. It really was all it ever needed for people to think about picking it up.

If this holds up from what Jon said earlier in this thread.

JonPeters.5630:
Last but definitely not least.

Arcana
I see the logic in not wanting the two changes in this line to counter each other. Moving good adept traits to master level is contrary to reducing the need to spec into this line. That being said, Elemental Attunement is just a beast of a trait and could honestly be compared with most grandmaster traits. I think a good compromise would be to place Renewing Stamina back in the adept tier, placing is where the other professions get this type of trait, and instead move Final Shielding to the master tier where it could live alongside Arcane Retribution as two good choices in arcane builds that take Arcane Mastery in the adept tier. That could leave some interesting builds such as: 0/30/30/0/10 for fresh air, diamond skin, and renewing stamina. It also still leaves builds that put only 10 points in Arcana a chance to gain Protection by going 30 air for Tempest Defense, and 10 Earth for Elemental Shielding and still have 30 points leftover.

I still believe there is work to be done at the grandmaster tier in Fire at the very minimum and that Air and Water are the only truly good grandmaster choice right now. There are also still a handful of just terrible traits that will still get looked at, but we felt like we were already bordering on changing too much.

Thanks,

Jon

P.S. bug fix for Lingering Elements is coming on Nov. 26th as well.

Then I think most ele’s will agree the changes to ele overall are good.

Edit: after looking at what Jon said it looks like he is thinking to leave both traits elemental attunement and renewing stamina at adept. When I first read it I thought he was saying to just leave renewing at adept.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

(edited 2013-11-03 16:58:10 by oZii.2864)

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Nageth.5648

Nageth.5648

Nice, that would be a considerable buff if it goes through.

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Xaylin.1860

Xaylin.1860

Mattmatt.4962:
I just reallize something:

JonPeters.5630:
Aquamancer’s Alacrity
We moved this trait because all profession cooldown traits are in master tier, and because that is a good investment for this type of improvement. That being said, they may all not be powerful enough to warrant a master level triat right now, but I would rather increase the cooldown to 25% to get people to consider them than to have them be adept tier and allow elementalists to run all four of them.

The fact is that you CAN’T compare alatracity trait to “reduce CD on X weapon” trait from other class for this reason: for other classes, this kind of trait reduce CD on 50% of their skills, were for ele its only 25% of our skills. In addition, they ALWAYS got another buff like +X to Ystat, or things like that.
examples:
great sword training for mesmer: 20% CD AND +50power
warden’s feedback for mesmer: 20% CD AND reflect projectile
honorable shield for guardian: 20% CD AND 90toughness
etc.

Our “reduce CD” trait are weaker, so they don’t have to be in master tier because others are in.

That’s a weird way of doing the math.

It’s “only” 25% because Elementalists have more skills than most other classes (not judging if this is good or bad). When picking a CD trait it will always affect 4 skills while on other classes the trait might even only affect 2-3 skills since the AA doesn’t gain anything from most weapon traits. This actually makes the cd traits on Elementalists more efficient than most other weapon traits. But yes, they affect a smaller percentage of their skills because of their class design.

Traits like Wardens Feedback are indeed great and add new dimensions to the gameplay. However, you also have to keep in mind that it becomes almost mandatory when running a focus because the skills are supbar otherwise. Nevertheless, you will be forced to go 20 points into a traitline to improve two skills.

Plus stats on the weapon traits is nice to have but extremly unimportant. A very good example is the Scepter trait which Mesmers have (+200 condition damage). But barely anyone uses it. I guess stat improvements were added to underused cd traits because it is quite complicated to introduce meaningful skill alterations to every weapon set without making it overpowered.

What I want for Christmas – Mesmer Rework

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Silberfisch.3046

Silberfisch.3046

I think it’s interesting, that apparently glyphs and signets – or earth and air magic depending on your point of view – seem to be considered weak enough to split the cooldown reduction between adept an master tier and conjured weapons and cantrips – again likewise fire and water magic – are powerful enough to warrant both reductions in the master tier so you will have to chose either of those with the current lookout in the changes.
Or if you prefer another different point of view: that conjured weapons and cantrips “are worth 20 points” and glyphs an signets “are worth 10 points”.

Yes, I’m aware that in the case of the conjured weapons it’s not a cooldown reduction but an increase in the number of charges.

I’m also aware that this in an overly simplistic view because you have to take synergies with the other trait lines into consideration. Still it strikes me as odd.

I might understand that in case of the conjured weapons, since an elite is affected by this as well. But the same could be said about the glyphs.
And I’ll admit that the activation effects of some of the signets are comparatively weak in a pve environment but not so in pvp in my opinion.

I’m not saying that the move of Aquamancer’s Alacrity into the master tier is necessarily a bad thing since it’s consistent with the other Alacrity traits and in the case of conjured weapons and fire magic it’s already a choice we have to make anyway.
I just find the evaluation of the various utility types and their “corresponding” magic interesting.

If you happen to stumble across any typos,
you may keep them to rear new and interesting variants in your basement.

(edited 2013-11-03 17:13:09 by Silberfisch.3046)

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

Yea pretty much what Xaylin said I agree with. The majority of main hand dagger skills cd is already low. If you are taking a CD reduction trait for daggers as ele your taking it because of your 4 and 5 skill for off-hand. Like scepter on mesmers the cooldowns are already short so there isn’t really a big reason to take the trait just like blade training in dueling.

It is like on my necromancer master of corruption is a awesome trait for corrupt boon but there are better choices if I just run epidemic which is one of the strongest skills in the game. It is already 15 sec cd reducing it to 12 seconds isn’t worth the other choices at Master tier definitely not taking it over Terror.

Not everyone get’s a staff buff on cd reduction skills. Necromancers staff is adept in Death Magic and people only take it really because the other choices at adept arent good and you only go 20 into death magic to get greater marks or reaper’s protection there is no +Stats tied to the trait.

For me to really be enticed to grab a cd reduction trait as a elementalist it would have to be something that really makes it more attractive. Like gain 2 seconds of regeneration on auto attack of water skills, might on fire skills or 40% chance to cause burning on crit, 2 seconds of protection earth auto attack skills etc.

Water really was the only one I ever took and that was with staff.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

Mr. Peters,

Signet of Restoration – The elementalist sustained heal skill on paper awesome! Scaling decent when you consider attack speeds if you are using d/d. If you are using any other weapon set not so much.

Issue – Hit with Confusion or Poison you are then double penalized for healing with the Signet’s passive. Counter play in poison to reduce the healing, but confusion also works to counteract the healing.

Suggestion – Reduce cooldown to 20 seconds. By making the CD to 20 seconds Signet mastery and Written in Stone together look more attractive. Allow the signet to proc over the course of channel skills. Right now it will proc 1 time over the course of a channel skill and that is at Skill activation.

20 seconds puts it in line with Healing Signet(while healing for less) and Signet of Malice(which has a base of recharge of 15 seconds without a Signet trait). These 3 Signet share the same base healing on the active 3,275. Signet of Restoration however is 25 second base recharge.

Signet of Restoration lost some of it’s power in the Confusion patch where the bug fix was done because Signet of Restoration would proc to many times with Evasive Arcana, this reduced the Signet of Restorations healing output also because it would proc 3 times in Earth dodge roll for example.

I think Signet of Restoration is good it’s weakness is conditions and I am ok with that because Ether Renewal and Glyph (combined with cleansing water trait) are better at condition removal than Signet. I think lowering the base cd to 20 seconds would be a good change because if you are using the active you are probably dead anyway.

If you want to deal with conditions and run Signet you have to trait/gear to do so and their is the trade off in Running the Signet. Otherwise right now the obvious choice is to go Ether renewal or Glyph.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

(edited 2013-11-03 17:48:42 by oZii.2864)

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: KeyLimPi.9031

KeyLimPi.9031

Nabuko Darayon.9645:
I know you necros are fighting against this because so far Eles have been a piece of cake to take down and give you easy wins (In the current meta)

I’ve been maining ele since day 1 beta. That still hasn’t changed.

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Kaleban.9834

Kaleban.9834

Can someone explain why the Elementalist’s Vigor on Crit trait is now a 20 point master trait, but Mesmer and Guardian’s Vigor on Crit trait is a 5 point Adept trait in lines almost all builds take?

Is there some justification by ANet that I missed that lays out why the squishiest profession with the least inherent survival mechanics should also have the least access to survival oriented boons?

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Zelyhn.8069

Zelyhn.8069

Jon can you please let us know how the bugfixed Lingering Elements trait is going to work?
- only with adpet minors?
- with all attunement specific traits?
- will arcane precision be able to proc two effects if you have two attunements active?

Zelyhn.8069 [rT]
Retired elementalist theorycrafter

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: KeyLimPi.9031

KeyLimPi.9031

JonPeters.5630:
Arcana
I see the logic in not wanting the two changes in this line to counter each other. Moving good adept traits to master level is contrary to reducing the need to spec into this line. That being said, Elemental Attunement is just a beast of a trait and could honestly be compared with most grandmaster traits. I think a good compromise would be to place Renewing Stamina back in the adept tier, placing is where the other professions get this type of trait, and instead move Final Shielding to the master tier where it could live alongside Arcane Retribution as two good choices in arcane builds that take Arcane Mastery in the adept tier.

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: KeyLimPi.9031

KeyLimPi.9031

Kaleban.9834:
Can someone explain why the Elementalist’s Vigor on Crit trait is now a 20 point master trait, but Mesmer and Guardian’s Vigor on Crit trait is a 5 point Adept trait in lines almost all builds take?

Is there some justification by ANet that I missed that lays out why the squishiest profession with the least inherent survival mechanics should also have the least access to survival oriented boons?

KeyLimPi.9031:
JonPeters.5630:
Arcana
I see the logic in not wanting the two changes in this line to counter each other. Moving good adept traits to master level is contrary to reducing the need to spec into this line. That being said, Elemental Attunement is just a beast of a trait and could honestly be compared with most grandmaster traits. I think a good compromise would be to place Renewing Stamina back in the adept tier, placing is where the other professions get this type of trait, and instead move Final Shielding to the master tier where it could live alongside Arcane Retribution as two good choices in arcane builds that take Arcane Mastery in the adept tier.

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Kaleban.9834

Kaleban.9834

I still don’t see why ANet fails to grasp the obvious and just move Renewing Stamina to the Air 5 trait, and get rid of Zephyr’s Speed which is incredibly useless (and still bugged). Then the Ele has the same Precision line minor trait as the Mesmer. Balance.

Call it “Second Wind” or something similar.

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Mizhas.8536

Mizhas.8536

Lets face it. No matter what changes devs make to earth traitline while Evasive Arcana keeps being such a powerfull defensive trait.

90%, 85% those values are a joke. 1 single hit would drop more than that and then what? 30 point specced for nothing? No sir.
What about making it reduce INC damage?
0% reduction at 100% HP
25% reduction at 75% HP
50% reduction at 50% HP
75% reduction at 25% HP
…
Now that would be a real Diamond Skin.

In addition, you have another condition counter option with just 20 point in earth and the propper gear.

About Arcana traitline:

Both stamina and attunement changes are too much. D/D builds rely on vigor for their survability same like S/D ones.
Elemental attunement IS a strong trait but moving it to master tier doesn’t solve anything.
What if you merge lingering elements with elemental attunement and make it be a minor master trait?

Now that you’re looking so close to arcana, are you aware of 25 arcana trait? The crit chance is really low AND the condition duration too.
What about making it 66% chance just like 25 points air?
Hovewer, i would just change Elemental surge and merge both with a little change:

Elemental surge: 100% chance on crit to apply a condition based on your actual attunement. An optional function could be making it work with lingering elements so you apply 1 condition for each attunement you’re buffed with.

25%movement increase while dagger trait just remove it. Traveler runes do the same thing without having to waste a trait slot. (or even air signet)

(edited 2013-11-03 18:40:55 by Mizhas.8536)

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: madchatter.7964

madchatter.7964

What if the attunement recharge was a flat 10 sec across the board, and traiting into the arcane line gave a bonus to endurance regen? It would synergize very well with the trait line, and taking evasive arcana would boost survivability WITHOUT going into either water OR earth. Condi removal would still be an issue, but it would throw more survivability into another trait line, which is the only real way I see to open up more build options. Right now, ele is the only class where I feel compelled to take both traits and utilities solely for survival.

GoM – [ASH] | Check out the GoMmunity!
main: Medeina (human d/d ele)
alts: yes xP

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

Kaleban.9834:
I still don’t see why ANet fails to grasp the obvious and just move Renewing Stamina to the Air 5 trait, and get rid of Zephyr’s Speed which is incredibly useless (and still bugged). Then the Ele has the same Precision line minor trait as the Mesmer. Balance.

Call it “Second Wind” or something similar.

Because of Lingering Elements.

December 10th Elementalist changes

Posted by: Avadore.4196

Avadore.4196

The problem I see even with the counter proposed changes that were made with Arcana and elemental attunement. The builds with 20 into Arcana already will be fine. Those builds that are more diversified outside Arcana will take a hit with the changes.

It can be argued that Elemental Attunement is a power trait bordering on master or even grandmaster level but here is the glaring problem with the changes now. Majority Elementalist builds are built using Elemental Attunement and over the year all Elementalist balance changes have been made with Elemental Attunement trait as is. None of the changes to the other lines can compensate for the loss of Elemental Attunement as a 10 point trait now 20 point trait.

The end result will have an affect opposite of what Arenanet is trying to do. More players are just going to stick with builds with 20 points into Arcana instead of diversified builds outside of Arcana.

December 10th Elementalist changes