Guild Wars 2

Belorn.2659:

Ember’s Might: 25% increased burning duration looks uninteresting both by the math, and as a choice. It for example do not synergies at all with other burning traits like Burning Precision and Flame Barrier. It would make more sense to add a secondary effect when burning is applied (Torment?), so it would synergies with Elementalist many skills that do apply burning but for a very short duration.

How does it not synergizes with these traits?

Jon if you are still reading this thread would you please care to tell us how Lingering Elements will be fixed ??

With diamond skin at 85% health, I wonder, would it be too strong if similar triggers were buffed in the same way? For example, water’s piercing shards that deals more when health is above 90%. I know Runes of Scholar is one of the best runes, and it sits at 90%, but scholar can be used for any profession.

About Burning Fire, it has very interesting synergy with cantrip traits. Especially with fire’s adept that adds 3 stacks of might per cantrip. However, I do agree that the cooldown could be revised. I would like to see a 35s cooldown for both the skill and the trait, considering that the skill is not used anymore at its current situation. And this 5s buff is only a very “safe”, conservative suggestion.

EDIT: About Lingering elements, my guess is that it’ll only work with the minor traits. It would have been way too strong otherwise, unless it was placed to #25. However, I would like to see some more traits to be designed to synergize with Lingering, like Pyromancer’s Puissance.

Belorn.2659:

Diamond Skin: Interesting if somewhat gimmicky concept. The Elementalist ability to stay at full health is quite limited, but plausible, and would synergies well with the heal skill/s from weapon. At 85%, it will definitely look nice on paper.

Yeup, since it only cuts condi duration, after you hit 89% you are kittened.
You will get condi’s spammed on you up the kitten and then even if you do somehow heal above 90, you will still have all those condi’s on you…

With some other investments and stability, you could create a great anti-pure-condi-builds build but that’s just meh.

Zelyhn.8069:

Belorn.2659:

Ember’s Might: 25% increased burning duration looks uninteresting both by the math, and as a choice. It for example do not synergies at all with other burning traits like Burning Precision and Flame Barrier. It would make more sense to add a secondary effect when burning is applied (Torment?), so it would synergies with Elementalist many skills that do apply burning but for a very short duration.

How does it not synergizes with these traits?

Because burning cause damage per second. 1 second of burning or 1.25 seconds of burning cause the same amount of damage.

JonPeters.5630:

Diamond Skin
…Of course if you are just an elementalist you just want us to raise these, but balance must work around some fixed things and profession health and armor are an important part of defining what a profession is so that we can create powerful tools that players can actively use to circumvent these weaknesses….

This is why Elementalists are so frustrated. Its been a year since launch and the only “powerful tools” we have to compensate for low survivability are 15 water, Elemental Attunement, Evasive Arcana, and to a much lesser extent Final Shielding (which no one takes over better arcane traits) and Earth’s Embrace. 3 powerful traits and 2 somewhat useful ones. No offense, but Temepest Defense, even at 25 sec cd, is not going to be viewed as much of a survivability improvement by most.

If you really want players to feel safe speccing outside of water/arcane, there needs to be powerful survivability mechanics in fire and air. None of your proposed changes really add that. Fire Aura is something you could improve that would make 20+ fire really appealing, if having Fire Aura up was actually a reason for players to regret hitting the ele. Improvements to Flame Barrier/Zephyr’s Speed at high trait levels is another thought too.

Arcana
I see the logic in not wanting the two changes in this line to counter each other. Moving good adept traits to master level is contrary to reducing the need to spec into this line. That being said, Elemental Attunement is just a beast of a trait and could honestly be compared with most grandmaster traits.

Suppose you do improve Fire and Air enough that people are comfortable leaving water 15 to spec for them. All ele’s still NEED Elemental Attunement (or feel they do) and all staff ele’s still defenitly need blasting staff. 20 arcane will still be holding everyone back. Staff ele’s arent going to go the aura-for-protection-and-swiftness route ever, because they only have good access to one aura.

P.S. bug fix for Lingering Elements is coming on Nov. 26th as well.

Can you elaborate on what this actually means for us? 10% Bonus Damage traits (or 20% from piercing shards); or just passives like stone flesh?

Belorn.2659:

Zelyhn.8069:

Belorn.2659:

Ember’s Might: 25% increased burning duration looks uninteresting both by the math, and as a choice. It for example do not synergies at all with other burning traits like Burning Precision and Flame Barrier. It would make more sense to add a secondary effect when burning is applied (Torment?), so it would synergies with Elementalist many skills that do apply burning but for a very short duration.

How does it not synergizes with these traits?

Because burning cause damage per second. 1 second of burning or 1.25 seconds of burning cause the same amount of damage.

Ok so you mean “because they round-down”.
You argument is not valid: it does synergize, actually it cannot synergize more.
There is a chance that this trait will have little effect if you apply little burn, but if you apply a lot then its affect is definitely noticeable.

Raven.9603:

If you really want players to feel safe speccing outside of water/arcane, their needs to be powerful survivability mechanics in fire and air. None of your proposed changes really add that. Fire Aura is something you could improve that would make 20+ fire really appealing, if having Fire Aura up was actually a reason for players to regret hitting the ele.

I would really like to see Fire’s Embrace being put into grandmaster, and have the aura change depending on Attunement. Something like 3s fire / 3s frost / 1s shock / 1s Magnetic. That would add a defensive layer on top of signet 30/30/0/0 builds.

Zelyhn.8069:

Zelyhn.8069:

Belorn.2659:

How does it not synergizes with these traits?

Because burning cause damage per second. 1 second of burning or 1.25 seconds of burning cause the same amount of damage.

Ok so you mean “because they round-down”.
You argument is not valid: it does synergize, actually it cannot synergize more.
There is a chance that this trait will have little effect if you apply little burn, but if you apply a lot then its affect is definitely noticeable.

How does it synergize more? What is your basis that a 1.25s burning do more damage than 1s?

Burning stacks in duration.

I’ve already said how much i love this rework in the main thread, but i’d like to share some thoughts on the ele specific here.

What about switching the element-related effect of elemental attunement with the 5 points trait in fire,air,water and earth? This would make for a less ‘boon-spamming’ mindset, and make the element you traited feel more like an element you traited (‘your home-element, if you will’). A dimension currently completely missing in the game, except for the quite bland flat dmg/cd reduction traits.

And turn elemental attunement into a bundling of all these replaced traits. That way it will synergize with lingering attunements nicely and more obviously. Also more resemblance to arcana minor adept. Also, could you give an indication of what kind of changes are easier to do?

P.S.: You could do the same to the 25-traits in the elements, replace them by the element’s counterpart of arcana 25, but boost proc chance significantly. Now THAT would add some depth. 25 arcana needed a bit of work anyway, as 90 percent of people were completely unaware of its functionality because of its insignificance. One example of what you could turn 25 arcana into is the 25 water trait bountiful power(maybe double up again, since less boons). With proper balancing this could maybe create a 10/10/10/10/30 build for the ‘well-rounded’ elementalist. Also works well with arcana giving boon duration.

What the kitten I just cant stop writing, I’m done. I’m done. Tempest defense w… NO, I’m done.

Zelyhn.8069:

Burning stacks in duration.

This only gets into effect if the target is kept burning and if you trigger Burning Precision and Flame Barrier 4 times to get the 328 synergy damage from this trait. Seems lackluster to me.

Belorn.2659:

Zelyhn.8069:

Burning stacks in duration.

This only gets into effect if the target is kept burning and if you trigger Burning Precision and Flame Barrier 4 times to get the 328 synergy damage from this trait. Seems lackluster to me.

Dagger: drake’s breath gives long duration burning
Scepter: auto attacks + dragon tooth allow you to maintain long burning
Staff: long duration burning spell

So you can benefit from the extra 25% easily, and procs will benefit from it.

Belorn.2659:

Zelyhn.8069:

Burning stacks in duration.

This only gets into effect if the target is kept burning and if you trigger Burning Precision and Flame Barrier 4 times to get the 328 synergy damage from this trait. Seems lackluster to me.

Bonus 25% burn duration is a pain in the kitten to actually make good use of (if you stack tons of burning in an attempt to stop the rounding, it will get cleansed), and the rewards for the effort just aren’t even remotely worth it.
It’s a bad trait idea.

garethh.3518:

Belorn.2659:

Zelyhn.8069:

Burning stacks in duration.

This only gets into effect if the target is kept burning and if you trigger Burning Precision and Flame Barrier 4 times to get the 328 synergy damage from this trait. Seems lackluster to me.

Bonus 25% burn duration is a pain in the kitten to actually make good use of (if you stack tons of burning in an attempt to stop the rounding, it will get cleansed), and the rewards for the effort just aren’t even remotely worth it.
It’s a bad trait idea.

Ah yes, we can discuss the strength of the idea. But it does synergize, that is my point.

It’s not that great on individual skills, true, but stacking burn is quite easy for the ele. Maybe it rounds poorly, but a second additional burning to most burning skills seems ok for an adept trait.

oZii.2864:

Mbelch.9028:

I think a lot of eles on this forum, including myself, have made some excellent threads/posts on the elementalist.

Like I said in my post, not all of us agree 100% of the time on anything, so nobody can speak on behalf of us.

And about DaPheonix, I don’t exactly know how in touch he is with the game. I know you were just joking, but he really isn’t/wasn’t godliness embodied into an ele :P.

He still plays though I havent seen him on in a while. he is usually on for a few days when a new patch comes out.

Good to know. I also haven’t logged in a while. Super busy, but I’ll get on soon. Hopefully our servers connect again soon.

JonPeters.5630:

xiv.7136:

JonPeters.5630:

Summation of high risk concerns for elementalist.

………..

I still believe there is work to be done at the grandmaster tier in Fire at the very minimum and that Air and Water are the only truly good grandmaster choice right now. There are also still a handful of just terrible traits that will still get looked at, but we felt like we were already bordering on changing too much.

Thanks,

Jon

P.S. bug fix for Lingering Elements is coming on Nov. 26th as well.

Thanks for participating in the thread, let’s get a good and meaningful discussion that will help you guys enact positive and balanced changes. Don’t be afraid of changing too much when a lot needs changing.

First of all, try Diamond Skin at 80% and see if anyone takes it. 90% is kind of pointless, esp for a grandmaster trait. I don’t even know if it’ll see much play at 80%.

Cooldown reduction traits don’t mean the same for elementalist as for other classes, we’re not weaponswappers who use 2 weaponsets (and some classes use 1 for 80% of the time), we swap attunements constantly. No one is going to take 20% in all lines, that would make for a horrible spec. Make them stronger in the 30% region for specialisation at the master trait level, or more accessible to open up some 2/2 options.

Cantrip mastery is one of those things that needs to be accessible. Elementalists need survivability options since glass cannons are as glass as they get, and they don’t do the damage of other class specs. The reliance on cantrips is a symptom of a different survivability problem with eles, not the problem itself. Speaking of which, LF stunbreaker, needed, come on it’s obvious that it needs it, it’s blink.

Also I think you need to have at least one attunement per weapon giving some decent single target damage. Looking at staff personally but those autos are just wack.

Also revisit some of that D/D stuff. I don’t know if you play D/D but it’s just not up to par right now, it needs roamer capability or what is it for.

Right now I am thinking 85% on diamond skin as high health eles could break this at 80% imo.

Also thinking 25% cooldown on the alacrity traits so we can move slowly. If we go 30% and have to nerf after that I would not be happy. The diamond skin thing is possible for dec 10th. The cooldown thing on alacrity traits is more likely to be the following patch because it has a lot of testing requirements that concern me.

Jon

Why not a 20% recharge reduction for weapon skills and a 5-10% for the attunement?

Being gated behind two recharges but only having control over one, causes constant hit or miss with attunement swapping. I play an earth ele even though I admit it by and large sucks (because I think it’s fun) and even with 20% recharge reduction I consistently swap to earth attunement only to have everything but my auto-attack and one other skill still recharging, I either have to sit their spamming an auto-attack or swap again losing out on my principal abilities for another 16 seconds. If we had some form of per-attunement recharge I could use the abilities I rely on more often and swap to other attunements without being terrified that I won’t have my most important abilities available when I need them without having to go into the arcane tree.

Mikhail.4961:

More serious though, I was wondering if anyone actually uses Lava Tomb? Ele’s are pure paper when downed and once you’ve used Mistform, you’re toast. I suppose for early levels of PvE it’s not utter useless, but I don’t see it at end-level.

I use it when solo/small group roaming (I run full zerk usually). Most of the times I die are from burst warriors/thieves catching me with arcane shield on cd. Most of these people go for the stomp right away and lava tomb ticking 4-5k on them demolishes their health. Also, if you wait a few seconds and then mist, you drop another lava font when you come out of mist. This, combined with a ridiculous amount of damage on downed 3 means I can often kill other glassy people from downed and rally.

JonPeters.5630:

Aquamancer’s Alacrity
We moved this trait because all profession cooldown traits are in master tier, and because that is a good investment for this type of improvement. That being said, they may all not be powerful enough to warrant a master level triat right now, but I would rather increase the cooldown to 25% to get people to consider them than to have them be adept tier and allow elementalists to run all four of them.

These traits are obviously a bit odd on the ele because we really have one weapon set but four attunements. Understood that other professions have this in the Master tier, but they get it per-weapon, unlike per-attunement.

I really like earth and air on the Focus, but I’d have to spend 40 points under the new scheme to get reduced c/d on just those two attunements. A per-weapon trait would be cool but now staff c/d or dagger c/d is much more valuable than focus c/d or scepter c/d.

Difficult but maybe like you said you can add a bonus to the traits. So any one of the traits would provide -20% c/d on that attunement PLUS an additional bonus like dmg, reflection, etc. That would definitely be worth the 20 point investment in the trait. Precedence is set on other professions (see mesmer focus).

We’re still going to be forced into arcane and water because of our super low health and lack of defensive mechanics. Eles should be the ones with multiple teleport skills on low cooldowns, not thieves. atleast then we could avoid getting hit since we’re so squishy. And most people still spec way into arcane just for the heal from evasive arcana. Changing our healing signet to function the exact same way as warrior’s healing signet would eliminate the need for this. So would removing the heal from evasive arcana and replacing it with frozen ground, then combining the heal with stop drop and roll (a trait that no one ever uses anyway). Seriously, just get rid of stop drop and roll and combine it with the cleansing wave from evasive arcana. And just put our vigor on crit trait at 5 points like other classes with similar skills.

There, problem solved. No one will have to go into water or arcane unless they want to, we’ll no longer be forced to because of crappy survivability and need to heal just to stay alive. we also need a boost to our base health. You’ve boosted warriors health in the past (the class that needed a boost in health least of all) so I know it’s possible to raise our health.

We just need more movement skills like teleports on low cooldowns on weapons, and some of our traits moved around where they would actually be useful.

Nikkinella.8254:

We’re still going to be forced into arcane and water because of our super low health and lack of defensive mechanics. Eles should be the ones with multiple teleport skills on low cooldowns, not thieves. atleast then we could avoid getting hit since we’re so squishy. And most people still spec way into arcane just for the heal from evasive arcana. Changing our healing signet to function the exact same way as warrior’s healing signet would eliminate the need for this. So would removing the heal from evasive arcana and replacing it with frozen ground, then combining the heal with stop drop and roll (a trait that no one ever uses anyway). Seriously, just get rid of stop drop and roll and combine it with the cleansing wave from evasive arcana. And just put our vigor on crit trait at 5 points like other classes with similar skills.

There, problem solved. No one will have to go into water or arcane unless they want to, we’ll no longer be forced to because of crappy survivability and need to heal just to stay alive. we also need a boost to our base health. You’ve boosted warriors health in the past (the class that needed a boost in health least of all) so I know it’s possible to raise our health.

We just need more movement skills like teleports on low cooldowns on weapons, and some of our traits moved around where they would actually be useful.

Actually what should happen is Mesmers should get our HP pool because they do have a lot of in combat mobility/defenses (stealth, teleport, distortion, clones, etc) and we should be brought up to theirs. Then it would more closely mirror the thief/ranger style design.

It’s the shortest path between the two points but Anet seemingly wants to live in denial about the situation and are trying to come up with every other possible idea except the most obvious one.

JonPeters.5630:

Elementalist:

• Arcane VI – Renewing Stamina. Moved to Master tier.

Please swap Air II – Zephyr’s Focus and Arcane VI – Renewing Stamina instead.

Renewing Stamina depends on Crit, and is out of place in the Arcana line, while Zephyr’s Focus belongs to the Arcana line (although it’s nearly useless since only Meteor Shower counts as a channelling spell). Swap it, put Renewing Stamina in Adept tier for Air, and put Zephyr’s Focus in Master tier for Arcana, and maybe buff it a little bit.

Arcana has too many good traits, swap it to other line like Air will help builds diversity.

JonPeters.5630:

Lingering Elements
All passive bonuses for that attunement should linger. This means Flame Barrier, Stone Flesh, Soothing Mist, and Zephyr’s Speed.

These are not all passive bonuses.

But thank you for taking the time to reply.

Edit: and thank you for making a trait that could be the highlight of the class be so pathetic.

juno.1840:

I really like earth and air on the Focus, but I’d have to spend 40 points under the new scheme to get reduced c/d on just those two attunements. A per-weapon trait would be cool but now staff c/d or dagger c/d is much more valuable than focus c/d or scepter c/d.

There are already traits that have a sort of global effect when you have a weapon equipped. The problem would be creating traits for scepter/dagger that can also benefit focus.

Example 1: Windborne Dagger – While wielding a dagger, your skills recharge x% faster and you move 25% faster. (dual wielding does not increase this effect)

Example 2: Vigorous Scepter – While wielding a scepter, your skills recharge x% faster and your endurance recovers 33% faster.

Example 3: Blasting Staff – While wielding a staff, your skills recharge x% faster and aoe skills are x% larger. (I think many staff skills could still use a slight increase in base area covered before this trait)

In this case you don’t need to make one for focus because the two traits that deal with single-handed weapons can also benefit focus users. The problem with traits like these however is that they might be strong enough to be required. What % cd reduction would be good enough to consider without making them a really high tier and forcing investment into a certain trait line? Perhaps something like this could be moved to a master/grandmaster minor trait?

New minor trait: Elemental Alacrity – Your weapon spells recharge x% faster.

You’d have to make it either have decreased effect on elements already affected by an alacrity trait, or make its base amount additive yet low enough to not make trait stacking over the top.

Regardless of how a trait like this would be balanced however, it would necessitate a rework of Arcana’s investment bonus. As it is, Arcana’s current bonus is a hindrance to build versatility, even after the baseline attunement recharge reduction.

Good points on the weapon specific traits Leuca — I forgot about those (don’t know how, but I did). Yeah focus is missing from that collection.

It’s a difficult job to balance these for sure. The current c/d reduction by attunement makes sense because those traits are in their respective lines (fire, air, etc). Where should a focus trait go? Arcana makes sense for those because it isn’t attunement specific.

I don’t think the c/d reduction should be put on the weapon traits as the elementalist only uses one land-based weapon. That would be quite a powerful trait to have… borderline grand-master level.

Question regarding Diamond Skin. If a single skill do more than 15% damage in one hit, will the condition part of the skill be counted first or last?

For example: backstab with poison or Bladetrail.

Lingering Elements
All passive bonuses for that attunement should linger. This means Flame Barrier, Stone Flesh, Soothing Mist, and Zephyr’s Speed.

That’s all? Really?
The trait was useless since beta because it did nothing because it was buggy. Now, after more than a year, you fix it to not be buggy anymore. But still it does nothing…. Wasted points. You got a perfect exemple for a trait that could DEFINE an entire class and yet you leave it being useless.

Noone cares about these 4 passives: flame barrier is pointless as you don’t want to get hit, zephyr speed gives you only 10% and doesn’t stack well, stone flesh doesn’t give you enough defense to be tanky and soothing mist does remain anyways even after you left water attunement and doesn’t heal a lot either.

If you say that it shall linger ALL passive effects, then make it linger all passive effects. Not just a few of them that are pointless anyways. That would be a fix and allow a lot more build diversity. You don’t fix it, you let it remain as useless as before.
Just please don’t!

Zelyhn.8069:

These are not all passive bonuses.

But thank you for taking the time to reply.

Edit: and thank you for making a trait that could be the highlight of the class be so pathetic.

Agreed. These are certainly not all the passive effects it could potentially work with. This also highlights another issue with the attunements, which is that we require trait-investment to get any bonus out of them, which means that this trait will only affect elements you’ve traited at least 5 into. That’s 20 points down the drain just to get some kind of effect on all four attunements when the trait is supposed to do that anyway. This issue is compounded upon by the fact that the upcoming changes will not eliminate the problem of Arcana investment being too valuable.

JonPeters.5630:

Give me a list of what else you think might be considered a passive benefit of these attunements, and I am happy to discuss the merits of this stuff working with this trait. However, posts that say things like “this isn’t everything” are just not constructive.

I think the disconnect comes from the player base considering these to be “passive” traits since they don’t have specific effects like “do x immediate effect when attuning to x.” They also are worded the same way as the 5 point minor traits.

To us, it’s obvious, but we have a different perspective.

They could be listed as the following:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Internal_Fire

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pyromancer%27s_Puissance
(This one actually affects all skills used while attuned to fire, including utilities)

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Air_Training

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strength_of_Stone

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Piercing_Shards

JonPeters.5630:

Zelyhn.8069:

JonPeters.5630:

Lingering Elements
All passive bonuses for that attunement should linger. This means Flame Barrier, Stone Flesh, Soothing Mist, and Zephyr’s Speed.

These are not all passive bonuses.

But thank you for taking the time to reply.

Edit: and thank you for making a trait that could be the highlight of the class be so pathetic.

Give me a list of what else you think might be considered a passive benefit of these attunements, and I am happy to discuss the merits of this stuff working with this trait. However, posts that say things like “this isn’t everything” are just not constructive.

Thank you for your attention and pardon my mood. Here is a list of some passive bonuses that should benefit from lingering elements:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Internal_Fire
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Air_Training
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strength_of_Stone
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Piercing_Shards
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Precision (to double proc if two attunements are active)

The potential of this trait has been discussed many many times in several thread over the past year. Many elementalists agree that it could the highlight of this class, and that it could bring fun as well as diversity.

Don’t forget One with Fire, even if no one uses it.

Belorn.2659:

Don’t forget One with Fire, even if no one uses it.

One With Fire would function properly if its prerequisites did, so it may be moot.

Belorn.2659:

Don’t forget One with Fire, even if no one uses it.

read this post:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/all-you-really-need-to-do-for-an-ele/first#post2785590
(Jon if you have a minute you may want to read it too)

Fire-Traitline
Flame Barrier
VI – Internal Fire – Deal 10% more dmg when attuned to fire
X – One with Fire – Flame barrier proc chance grows while attuned to fire

Air-Traitline
Zephyr Speed
X – Air Training – 10% more dmg when attuned to air

Earth-Traitline
Stone Flesh
VII – Strength of Stone – deal 10% more dmg when attuned to earth

Water-Traitline
Soothing Mists
IV – Piercing Shards – Deal 20% more dmg to vulnerable targets when attuned to water

This would allow the elementalist to switch through his attunements to stack up dmg. It would fit your design philosophy perfectly. Of course it would be a balance issue, but everything is a balance issue and currently the elementalist himself is a huge lack of balance.

You could even think about making a lot more traits stronger, but only working when attuned to that element. For example:
- the new Diamond Skin —> working only when attuned to earth, therefor complete immunity to conditions when above 75% instead of 80% oder 85% —> working with lingering elements
- Geomancers Freedom —> reduces duration of weakness, chill, cripple, poison and immobilized by 80% only when attuned to earth —> works with lingering elements
- Embers Might —> deal more dmg to burning foes —> increased to 10% but working only in fire attunement
- Burning Precision —> 30% chance to inflict burning on crit —> increased to 100% with 4 seconds ICD and 1 1/2 but only workin when attuned to fire

This way you would make every attunement more special and you would allow us to combine attunements to create a true elementalist. Lingering elements is the perfect trait to create a new design for elementalists, making it on the one hand side so useful, that many elementalist builds would like to use it (so reducing build diversity, means maybe to move it down to adept tier) and on the other hand side you would allow elementalists to specc into specific attunements to create a water/air or a fire/earth elementalist etc.

JonPeters.5630:

Zelyhn.8069:

JonPeters.5630:

Lingering Elements
All passive bonuses for that attunement should linger. This means Flame Barrier, Stone Flesh, Soothing Mist, and Zephyr’s Speed.

These are not all passive bonuses.

But thank you for taking the time to reply.

Edit: and thank you for making a trait that could be the highlight of the class be so pathetic.

Give me a list of what else you think might be considered a passive benefit of these attunements, and I am happy to discuss the merits of this stuff working with this trait. However, posts that say things like “this isn’t everything” are just not constructive.

I’m mostly curious about Pyromancer Puissance. It would really help maintain my might stacks when I do need to switch out of fire temporally.

And seriously guys, be respectful to the devs. This level of communication is GREAT, please don’t ruin it for us…

What the others have said, Jon … but now that Arcane Precision has come up … don’t you feel that a 10% on CRIT is VERY weak for a grandmaster tier trait? I have a high crit rate of 60% … so I have a 6% chance per attack of proccing a 1s Burn? Really?!?

JonPeters.5630:

Give me a list of what else you think might be considered a passive benefit of these attunements, and I am happy to discuss the merits of this stuff working with this trait.

I think the community is expecting Lingering Elements to work with all +damage-on-attunement traits. But I think that would make the trait too strong, even if it was moved up a tier to 25pts.

It would make the trait funnier, though, and that should be considered. Some other traits could work with Lingering for the sake of this synergy. For example, Pyromancer Puissance would be a very fun trait if it worked with Lingering. It would remain an underwhelming trait by itself, but could potentially become strong enough with this 45pts investment (it’s a 45pts investment after all!).

But I think what most disappoints with Lingering, is due to how weak our 5pts traits are. Even with the buff to the earth minor by 40 toughness coming 10dec, that feels rather underwhelming when compared to many of the other professions’ minors.

You could say, “but if all the minor traits were strong, lingering elements would be overpowered”, to which I would reply that such a combo requires 35 points investment (5 in each element line and 15 in arcana), and even then, it would be more underwhelming than, say, 20 points investment for elemental attunement.

I have to disagree Jon. I can’t count the number of times a Thief comes out of stealth and does multiple attacks that breach any numbers I can do outside of Earth Dagger 5 just to disappear into saftey.

Elementalists have more drawbacks then thieves and no saftey of stealth or even gimics like Death Shroud/Clones.

The damage is all we have and if we could use our mechanic to achieve that damage all the better.

Edit: I am just fearful that elementalist is being pigeon holed into being a staff zerg/blob heal bot with no practical use for tPvP or Roaming WvW.

JonPeters.5630:

Zelyhn.8069:

JonPeters.5630:

Lingering Elements
All passive bonuses for that attunement should linger. This means Flame Barrier, Stone Flesh, Soothing Mist, and Zephyr’s Speed.

These are not all passive bonuses.

But thank you for taking the time to reply.

Edit: and thank you for making a trait that could be the highlight of the class be so pathetic.

Give me a list of what else you think might be considered a passive benefit of these attunements, and I am happy to discuss the merits of this stuff working with this trait. However, posts that say things like “this isn’t everything” are just not constructive.

Wouldn’t the better route for making LE a really nice 15 trait be to make it so that all the traits when swapping to an attunement carry over for “x” seconds…?

For the sake of the example.. You had this build…
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQBYAgowkUEPswBJKKyZGA

If you’re in water, and then switch to air with LE specced you’d carry over for 5 seconds…
-> compassion
-> cleansing wave
-> healing ripple
-> piercing shards
Doing something like this would give people the option to not have to rely on evasive arcana and would give the class some much needed synergy between attunements. It would also make switching attunements to the correct follow attunement more interesting.

I agree with Jon. The problem isn’t Lingering Elements, but how effective(less) the minor 5pts traits are.

JonPeters.5630:

I think this trait needs better wording. I hope you all understand why that trait would be wildly overpowered if it carried over everything particularly all 10% damage bonuses. You could simply slam through all attunements and then get 50% bonus damage. Similarly making other things work with this would requires those traits get lowered in the base case as well. I think this is a fine 15 point minor trait on its own and we can reword it and then discuss the merits of the other traits on their own.

To me, that is a better starting point for discussion than attempting to balance all of these effects with how they might work with a minor trait in Arcana. That would predicate the entire profession around that trait which is not what we want out of our minor traits.

Jon

As it is, most eles who invest enough in Arcana to even get this minor trait are at most only getting to significantly invest in two other traitlines. The myriad defensive effects one would have to sacrifice to come close to the situation you describe would effectively neuter a functioning build.

You are suggesting that this kind of build would be broken.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQBoAgKIUgghiQ+QowCHqHmB

I respectfully disagree on the basis that damage increases are not additive.

JonPeters.5630:

I think this trait needs better wording. I hope you all understand why that trait would be wildly overpowered if it carried over everything particularly all 10% damage bonuses. You could simply slam through all attunements and then get 50% bonus damage. Similarly making other things work with this would requires those traits get lowered in the base case as well. I think this is a fine 15 point minor trait on its own and we can reword it and then discuss the merits of the other traits on their own.

To me, that is a better starting point for discussion than attempting to balance all of these effects with how they might work with a minor trait in Arcana. That would predicate the entire profession around that trait which is not what we want out of our minor traits.

Jon

Wait wait wait… It’s comments like this that boggle my mind. You know that at most, with LE specced you’d only be able to get 3 trait lines +10% boost right…? Where did you get this “slam through all the attunements and get a 50% boost”…?

And that would be a crappy build because you’d be GM no lines and be at a huge disadvantage…

DiogoSilva.7089:

I agree with Jon. The problem isn’t Lingering Elements, but how effective(less) the minor 5pts traits are.

The problem is that the 5 point traits are traits to begin with, meaning even if Lingering Elements technically functions correctly, in any optimal build it’s only slightly increasing the effects of maybe two minor traits.

The way I see it is if the +10% damage traits are the barriers, then get rid of the barriers. Every other class has 100% application of their traitline buffs. The Ele has loads of attunement only buffs. The ability of Lingering Elements gave the Ele a way to keep the buffs like every other class. It was intended to encourage attunement swapping. You can read that in the assisted beta notes.

There are other barrier issues that are preventing good fixes from happening. You have my blessing to get rid of them all.

Leuca.5732:

You are suggesting that this kind of build would be broken.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQBoAgKIUgghiQ+QowCHqHmB

I respectfully disagree on the basis that damage increases are not additive.

I think he is more afraid of a build like this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fEAQJArYhEmIbwx5QlEIkCpwoQHIeYBOAHWUMD5AA-jECBofBkgAkEBI7pIaslhFRjVXDT5iIq2cuIa1SBwqwI-w

Water to Air would be a 20% increase in damage … which I already do by Earth to Water for Churning Earth. If it isn’t OP there, I don’t know why it would be for Water → Air.

ImProVocateur.5189:

The way I see it is if the +10% damage traits are the barriers, then get rid of the barriers. Every other class has 100% application of their traitline buffs. The Ele has loads of attunement only buffs. The ability of Lingering Elements game the Ele a way to keep the buffs like every other class. It was intended to encourage attunement swapping. You can read that in the assisted beta notes.

I agree … the base issue is attunement only buffs. Personally I think the best overall fix would be to increase the base damage of all elementalist spells and replace all those +10% damage traits with ones that would fill some of the large gaping holes in the class.

I don’t understand at all why you would want arcana to be gotten less. Already eles have suffered great losses to mobility. This patch just seems to turn them into pure glass cannons, but bad glass cannons. I’ve had an ele for a while and I simply don’t know how to play it anymore.