Guild Wars 2

You guys should try S/F for some dungeons – you can practically shut down some bosses completely, plus you got tons of defense and the damage is also nice vs NPC’s who don’t know how to sidestep giant flaming teeth falling from the sky.

I almost never play D/D in dungeons, because I feel we can bring more to the table than pure damage and staff offers more on the support side of things.

@Gaudrath.6725

its obvious for us all that staff/focus watter build is more supportive than dd dps.

@haviz.1340
>I play d/d in dungs since october and I only swap for D/F
> on certain bosses, staff is unnecessary. Gear is full zerker.

dude if you also dont die like this then – RESPECT.
Totay 20:00 (utc +1) I gonna try to speak in game to all of you dd dung runners and maybe we try some 4-5 dd party for fractals, share experience etc.

@gaudrath: maybe because a zerker ele have a different role in a party rather than a balanced or a tanky one….

There is nothing wrong with D/D eles running bunker. Low damage is the tradeoff for survivability. There is nothing wrong with the water tree or its synergy. The lowest armor and health pool in the game requires that we have this.

Consider that glass cannon warriors are more durable than bunker eles. I am not saying they can ‘outlast’ us 1v1, but they can out sustain us by far in WvW fights. They do this while being able to hit like a truck.

Nothing wrong with bunker ele’s except for the people whining because they can’t spam 1,2,1,2,1,2 against them and win 1v1.

LordByron.8369:

@gaudrath: maybe because a zerker ele have a different role in a party rather than a balanced or a tanky one….

Acting as a CPR dummy for revivals daily? :p

Gaudrath.6725:

LordByron.8369:

@gaudrath: maybe because a zerker ele have a different role in a party rather than a balanced or a tanky one….

Acting as a CPR dummy for revivals daily? :p

If you say so i’ll trust you….i knew zerker wasnt a good choice don t worry i can ress you without much efforts…

Gaudrath.6725:

You guys should try S/F for some dungeons – you can practically shut down some bosses completely, plus you got tons of defense and the damage is also nice vs NPC’s who don’t know how to sidestep giant flaming teeth falling from the sky.

I almost never play D/D in dungeons, because I feel we can bring more to the table than pure damage and staff offers more on the support side of things.

I find the exact opposite scenario and it’s why I’ve been running D/D in dungeons.

Being able to stack 3 Area Mights is pretty kitten good. That’s nearly Half the total Might stacks in a single cast sequence for the team. Now Scepter can do this (and better) but with sharing Auras as D/D I also give out pretty much permanent Fury and Swiftness to anyone in range. All the heals are AOE as well so when swapping to Water everyone gets Frost Aura, the AOE heal/condition removal, the AOE heal for swapping to water and condition removal, etc. Stack me in with a AHealing Guardian (with Empowering Might) and a Warrior and we pretty much always have max stacks of Might and permanent Fury which means we just chew through any dungeon content out there.

Well yeah, except when you get oneshotted by some bosses and then you do nothing. Sure, some dungeons D/D can be good with aura sharing, and personally I love the set and use it all the time for WvW, but I find that keeping at range alone increases my survivability (semi-glassy build here). With our low HP we’re not really meant to hang around within range of the kind of heavy hits some bosses dish out in melee.

But seriously, I don’t usually lecture on optimum this, optimum that… if you’re good with D/D, use that. I tend to switch weapon sets often depending on the situation, keeps skills sharp.

My personal experience is that staff is best for general dungeon crawling, S/F is for tougher situations, especially when the entire group could use some ranged protection, and D/D only if I want to focus more on damage. I guess if you build for sharing auras then you’d want to keep close to melee, so there’s that, otherwise keeping at range is simply a better option for us most of the time.

After learning of dev’s incoming nerfs, I’ve already started a thief. It sucks, but if you really want to enjoy MMO’s you must have every character at max level, so you can just switch when they nerf a class to kitten.

It’s too bad, since I enjoy playing elementalist, but as long as you’re open to jumping on bandwagons (whatever class is most OP) you can still enjoy the game. It’s much better than waiting for months if not years for your class to be buffed again.

When they nerf the thief, I’ll jump to the next OP class, it’s just they way MMO’s are inherently made.

I figured I’d just throw in my personal experience, too.

First of all, I hate the staff. I don’t think it’s a bad weapon at all, the problem is that I really enjoy the “all in your face”/“hit and run” melee playstyle. I also enjoy some support. Because of this, the D/D auramancer playstyle definitely suits me the best. It’s what makes the Elementalist my favorite class to play. You gotta’ think about what you’re going to be doing, and what’s fun for you.

Some PvE/WvW advice:

In general…
Think about what weapon set would be best for the situation. Then, ask yourself which weapon set best suits the way you play. Try to make a decision based on that. If you can’t, just go with what best suits the way you play, and/or what is most enjoyable to you.

Consider world PvE.
I don’t bother with the big dragon events, only normal dynamic events. D/D is totally fine when it comes to DEs, as is basically any weapon combination. However, if you do those dragon events a lot, you’ll probably want a long range weapon.

Consider dungeons.
Melee-oriented weapon combinations are viable, and can be very effective. If you play generally well, and have some Toughness/Vitality on your gear, it can be pretty cool. Just yesterday I was running AC, and we almost wiped on Kholer. He was at ~10%, and all of my teammates died. I figured I was done for, considering I’m a D/D Ele, but it didn’t end up that way. I killed him. It may not seem like a huge deal, but I was level 58 with a full set of level 55 blues. If I can do it, so can you! XD

Consider WvW.
I mainly roam in small groups and patrol, defend camps, take camps, sometimes take towers, etc. If a tower or something ever needs defense from a huge group of people, I’m the person who builds stuff, repairs stuff, heals people, gives people buffs, takes a risk and jumps into the middle of the fray, etc. It’s what I enjoy. If you’re like me and do this sort of stuff, melee is great! If you like huge sieges, you’ll probably want long range.

Also, don’t be afraid to take a risk! Whatever the weapon combination is, if you think you’ll enjoy it, try using it in your normal routine and see how it goes.

P.S. I realize most of the discussion here is about sPvP, but some people are talking about dungeons and such, which is why I put this here. :P

Eles aren’t overpowered. One particular build with a particular weapon set is what is a tad too strong defensively.

Personally I never like to play bunker builds and therefore ignore the most popular build around currently (also for the challenge). The eles need more viable builds and buffs in certain areas, rather than an overall nerfing. I don’t mind a nerf to the bunker build, but you can’t say that eles in general need a nerf, as that is completely untrue and will ruin other less viable, but still playable options there is.

Only problem is that most eles use a bunker build, as it is the best option for survival. Those of us not using bunker builds aren’t being complained about, I have to remind you.

I hope Anet knows to filter whining (85-95% of this threads posters) from the actual problem. Only one build is causing all this fuzz. Shouldn’t be hard to fix that without ruining everything else about the class (which is rather weak currently imo).

Offers the usual wheel of cheese with the whine

Although… the fact that most ele’s run a bunker build is also problematic. I hope ANet will buff other options as they nerf what makes the bunker so effective, because overall it makes bunker eles less than useful in WvW.

I mean sure, you can survive a lot, but you can’t really kill much, which makes you good only as a distraction in WvW and we already got thieves covering that area plus they can actually kill a target.

We need more damage oriented ele builds, the kind of crazy, eyebrows-gone pyromaniacs who can effectively shatter zergs by carelessly headbutting them while juggling great balls of fire. Too many opt for mega survival vs. turning into a tornado and just tossing people around like ragdolls.

Malcastus.6240:

Eles aren’t overpowered. One particular build with a particular weapon set is what is a tad too strong defensively.

See, I find even this flawed. In order for an ele to have this kind of survivability, they severely reduce damage output. Considering that other classes can go cannon and be just as tanky or have just as much survivability via other methods without sacrificing damage, is all I really need to reason that there is nothing wrong with it.

The only problem bunker d/d ele’s have are the people that are used to seeing an ele and collecting free bags that can no longer do it. That and the people the cry about them running away…. Yeah, think about that for a second. Nerf a class because they run away too much…..

covenn.7165:

Malcastus.6240:

Eles aren’t overpowered. One particular build with a particular weapon set is what is a tad too strong defensively.

See, I find even this flawed. In order for an ele to have this kind of survivability, they severely reduce damage output. Considering that other classes can go cannon and be just as tanky or have just as much survivability via other methods without sacrificing damage, is all I really need to reason that there is nothing wrong with it.

The only problem bunker d/d ele’s have are the people that are used to seeing an ele and collecting free bags that can no longer do it. That and the people the cry about them running away…. Yeah, think about that for a second. Nerf a class because they run away too much…..

This. I totally agree, I never actually kill anyone with my d/d bunker build in wvw, I just pop in, annoy some people, then run away. You can’t nerf ele cuz they can’t kill and are good at running away. The only way I get bags is hoping somebody else kills the players I’ve already got a hit on. But I can seldom bring someone down from 100% by myself.
Look at dapheonix videos, sure he is able to take on 5 guys, but he doesn’t kill anyone, he just runs around and annoys them, that’s what a bunker build does.

Gaudrath.6725:

Although… the fact that most ele’s run a bunker build is also problematic. I hope ANet will buff other options as they nerf what makes the bunker so effective, because overall it makes bunker eles less than useful in WvW.

I mean sure, you can survive a lot, but you can’t really kill much, which makes you good only as a distraction in WvW and we already got thieves covering that area plus they can actually kill a target.

We need more damage oriented ele builds, the kind of crazy, eyebrows-gone pyromaniacs who can effectively shatter zergs by carelessly headbutting them while juggling great balls of fire. Too many opt for mega survival vs. turning into a tornado and just tossing people around like ragdolls.

Anytime anyone brings up any builds other than 0/10/0/30/30 or some slight variation of it they get laughed off the forums or get told they don’t know what they are doing or how to play the class.

I find that most people that get laughed off the forums is due to how they play rather than how they spec. For example, those that say they don’t switch attunements and think it is awesome, then refuse to listen to reason.

I’m pretty new to elementalist, as I’m only level 58 currently, but what I’m getting from this argument is that people are not complaining about being killed by D/D elementalists…but instead are complaining that they have trouble killing them? This seems to be an entirely moronic argument as (1) this is a pvp only argument and (2) if the elementalists are not able to kill you…then this is a win for the non-elementalist in these match ups. If anything, the D/D spec needs a buff if they aren’t able to get kills. Running away is not OP. The fact that the developers are even considering making balance decisions based off of forum whine speaks volumes about their balancing abilities…and not in a good way. I’ll admit, even at level 58, I can feel the survivability of the D/D ele spec, but I’m certainly not feeling like a killing machine vs other classes i’ve played like my necromancer and my warrior.

People just haven’t tried to deviate from this new tried and true survivability build, that’s all. It’s not that there aren’t other builds out there or that other builds are bad, it’s that the people that post on forums latch onto one particular build and never give it up, and fight to the death to defend it.

I’m 100% certain that if someone decided to spend some time ingame playing with various traits and came up with a new hybrid spec with balance between damage and survival, then posted it on here or a fan site, suddenly everyone will jump ship from this bunker build that’s apparently going to be nerfed so badly the class will no longer be playable with it (which is utterly ridiculous, btw) and praise the new hybrid as the new “only” way to play elementalists.

Pinny.9018:

People just haven’t tried to deviate from this new tried and true survivability build, that’s all. It’s not that there aren’t other builds out there or that other builds are bad, it’s that the people that post on forums latch onto one particular build and never give it up, and fight to the death to defend it.

I’m 100% certain that if someone decided to spend some time ingame playing with various traits and came up with a new hybrid spec with balance between damage and survival, then posted it on here or a fan site, suddenly everyone will jump ship from this bunker build that’s apparently going to be nerfed so badly the class will no longer be playable with it (which is utterly ridiculous, btw) and praise the new hybrid as the new “only” way to play elementalists.

Uh, the hybrid d/d isn’t exactly unknown. Every ele that I know runs hybrid. It’s every bit as ridiculous as the bunker build, maybe even more so in wvw. Personally, I really can’t wait for these nerfs, and I hope they hit hard.

With my build, I give myself at least a fair shot against any other class in the game, even when fighting the best people I know at those classes. But against other d/d eles? I haven’t won a 1v1 against anything but the worst players since I moved away from hybrid. It doesn’t matter how much I dodge their spells. It doesn’t matter how much I land mine. They always win in the end just because the level of defense possible from even a hybrid build is completely out of whack. Even incredibly mediocre players are able to fight at a top level because the current popular d/d ele builds are so dumb that the worst case scenario is a stalemate.

Quite frankly, if you don’t think the triple cantrip bunker/hybrid builds need to be nerfed, you are either a pve’er, or you’re kidding yourself because you don’t want to believe the build you play is op.

covenn.7165:

I find that most people that get laughed off the forums is due to how they play rather than how they spec. For example, those that say they don’t switch attunements and think it is awesome, then refuse to listen to reason.

Actually you’d be surprised. When you actually review most topics if you don’t express the opinion:

1. Spec Arcane
2. Play D/D Bunker
3. Staff is only Support

You tend to get discounted as a crazy person with no merit. Ultimately it’s a rather sad affair because people are so busy puking up garbage nonsense and then lapping it up to puke it out themselves there’s little room for originality. Then someone comes along and tries to offer an alternative to the same vomit and you all act incredulous at the idea of something different.

Well guess what. Check time. You all stuck to your guns so strongly and convinced everyone, including the Devs, that your way of playing the game is the only way to play the Elementalist to the determent of any other play style to the point (in the devs words) it’s become an “apex predator” build where no other builds can shine. So when it gets nerfed (as Evasive Arcana did) remember you brought it upon yourselves.

dreztina.4820:

Pinny.9018:

People just haven’t tried to deviate from this new tried and true survivability build, that’s all. It’s not that there aren’t other builds out there or that other builds are bad, it’s that the people that post on forums latch onto one particular build and never give it up, and fight to the death to defend it.

I’m 100% certain that if someone decided to spend some time ingame playing with various traits and came up with a new hybrid spec with balance between damage and survival, then posted it on here or a fan site, suddenly everyone will jump ship from this bunker build that’s apparently going to be nerfed so badly the class will no longer be playable with it (which is utterly ridiculous, btw) and praise the new hybrid as the new “only” way to play elementalists.

Uh, the hybrid d/d isn’t exactly unknown. Every ele that I know runs hybrid. It’s every bit as ridiculous as the bunker build, maybe even more so in wvw. Personally, I really can’t wait for these nerfs, and I hope they hit hard.

With my build, I give myself at least a fair shot against any other class in the game, even when fighting the best people I know at those classes. But against other d/d eles? I haven’t won a 1v1 against anything but the worst players since I moved away from hybrid. It doesn’t matter how much I dodge their spells. It doesn’t matter how much I land mine. They always win in the end just because the level of defense possible from even a hybrid build is completely out of whack. Even incredibly mediocre players are able to fight at a top level because the current popular d/d ele builds are so dumb that the worst case scenario is a stalemate.

Quite frankly, if you don’t think the triple cantrip bunker/hybrid builds need to be nerfed, you are either a pve’er, or you’re kidding yourself because you don’t want to believe the build you play is op.

The problem is that all utility skills and weapon skills are used for more than just one specific build. If you want to “nerf bunker builds into the ground” then you’re also nerfing anything else an elementalist might be able to do. If all people do is focus on “nerf this, nerf that!” with no regards toward what will be left, then eventually the elementalist won’t be playable at all.

dreztina.4820:

Uh, the hybrid d/d isn’t exactly unknown. Every ele that I know runs hybrid. It’s every bit as ridiculous as the bunker build, maybe even more so in wvw. Personally, I really can’t wait for these nerfs, and I hope they hit hard.

As long as WvW uses PVE skillsets there won’t be any nerf there, if anything, those D/D “gods” still need a serious buff for PVE, not a nerf. Now if they either give different skillset for WvW (which is what they should do, the 3 game types require different balancing) or they use PVP skillset there, then some kind of a nerf will certainly reach there too.

Kodiak.3281:

covenn.7165:

I find that most people that get laughed off the forums is due to how they play rather than how they spec. For example, those that say they don’t switch attunements and think it is awesome, then refuse to listen to reason.

Actually you’d be surprised. When you actually review most topics if you don’t express the opinion:

1. Spec Arcane
2. Play D/D Bunker
3. Staff is only Support

You tend to get discounted as a crazy person with no merit. Ultimately it’s a rather sad affair because people are so busy puking up garbage nonsense and then lapping it up to puke it out themselves there’s little room for originality. Then someone comes along and tries to offer an alternative to the same vomit and you all act incredulous at the idea of something different.

Well guess what. Check time. You all stuck to your guns so strongly and convinced everyone, including the Devs, that your way of playing the game is the only way to play the Elementalist to the determent of any other play style to the point (in the devs words) it’s become an “apex predator” build where no other builds can shine. So when it gets nerfed (as Evasive Arcana did) remember you brought it upon yourselves.

I am still amused when I realize people actually think devs base their balance decisions on forum whining and bragging.

Gaudrath.6725:

I am still amused when I realize people actually think devs base their balance decisions on forum whining and bragging.

Yea like they’re so incompetent they can’t monitor what people are doing in the game.

dreztina.4820:

Pinny.9018:

People just haven’t tried to deviate from this new tried and true survivability build, that’s all. It’s not that there aren’t other builds out there or that other builds are bad, it’s that the people that post on forums latch onto one particular build and never give it up, and fight to the death to defend it.

I’m 100% certain that if someone decided to spend some time ingame playing with various traits and came up with a new hybrid spec with balance between damage and survival, then posted it on here or a fan site, suddenly everyone will jump ship from this bunker build that’s apparently going to be nerfed so badly the class will no longer be playable with it (which is utterly ridiculous, btw) and praise the new hybrid as the new “only” way to play elementalists.

Uh, the hybrid d/d isn’t exactly unknown. Every ele that I know runs hybrid. It’s every bit as ridiculous as the bunker build, maybe even more so in wvw. Personally, I really can’t wait for these nerfs, and I hope they hit hard.

With my build, I give myself at least a fair shot against any other class in the game, even when fighting the best people I know at those classes. But against other d/d eles? I haven’t won a 1v1 against anything but the worst players since I moved away from hybrid. It doesn’t matter how much I dodge their spells. It doesn’t matter how much I land mine. They always win in the end just because the level of defense possible from even a hybrid build is completely out of whack. Even incredibly mediocre players are able to fight at a top level because the current popular d/d ele builds are so dumb that the worst case scenario is a stalemate.

Quite frankly, if you don’t think the triple cantrip bunker/hybrid builds need to be nerfed, you are either a pve’er, or you’re kidding yourself because you don’t want to believe the build you play is op.

Really? Try hybrid build with power runes and a single cantrip like the one I run then pls do come back and tell me how similar to the 0/10/0/30/30 it is.

I hate how players say “Ele is too powerful, they have to give up something, I can’t stand how OP they are”

We do give up something. We are the squishiest class in the game (Lowest Health Pool and Lowest Armor.) So having light armor and 10,805 health means that I can be one-shotted by Kill Shot (I took 13,000+ damage w/ screenshot to prove it when I had 1900 toughness),

Our sacrifice is having to dump Vitality and Toughness to have enough to survive, and the idea that anytime any player sees an attunment marker on our buffs, they will know we are elementalists and smart players target Levelers and squishiest classes systematically.

You want to nerf D/D elementalist? Guess what else we lose! AUTO-TARGETING!

In order for D/D to actually work, we have to push F11 and disable about every single bit of help. Push F11 and look at the bottom. All of my boxes are UNCHECKED because if I start checking something, it means my skills can get me killed or the system gets me killed.

This is while a newb player can just press whatever skill he or she wants and INSTANTLY I will be targeted if I am the nearest player.

D/D is far from being overpowered and I depend on the party that I am with, supporting them to be able to get just enough to survive and make the kills. The D/D build is highly dependent on actually getting a stack of 25 on the killstreak booster and making the food actually work.

It is a total build dependent on every piece of equipment, all piece of food, elimination of any systematic aid (F11) and a lot of skill to balance and control the situation you are in.

People complain about mist form, Guess what, you can still get downed on condition damage and stopped by Guardian’s 5th Staff Skill to prevent us from moving elsewhere. Once mistform is gone, our downed skills have nothing to really keep us alive in that class.

I was really afraid that this would happen…

That players would start getting ascended gear and amulets and the developers would see that skills were becoming too strong due to skillful players actually making use of things to improve their builds….just to prepare for a nerf that would ultimately mean that in order to be able to fight the same way I am on the EXOTIC scale of equipment, I would have to have FULL ASCENDED while other classes get cheap ways out of there.

Sorry, but Elementalist take skill and It took 100s of hours for me to learn and improve. Its not like a thief that can 222222 a player to death, nor like a guardian team that can run full glass cannon with each player using their F3 skill coupled with Retreat with five guardians to be able to block 7+ full attack per member of the group and still be front line melee…

D/D ele still is an Offensive-Support class at best where the fire fields help the players around you get might, your ground skills help with imobilizing and knockdown, your auras help your team stay alive if you choose to spread them. The attunement and heals work out well but the party has to be around you and close to you to get the benefit….

So seriously…

Thank God I am leveling all the characters to 80. I feel this game will become like Guild Wars 1 and have players be forced into playing the current ’Flavor of the Month" while being trapped into lesser and lesser builds because each time a smart player comes out with something nice and someone cries about it, the nerf hammer kind of ruins it.

So much for the entire “Guild Wars 2 is about freedom and customization” as it should read “Guild Wars 1 is about being trapped in whatever normal, average build and once you make something special, it will be rewarded by being nerfed down the road”

It angers me greatly….

And please dont get me started about how the casting times kept getting changed and pushed on Glyph of Renewal to the point I can’t use it in WvW since it takes 3 seconds to finish a player and 4.25 seconds to use it.

Of course I am sure if a WvW update said “All players have to manually target like in all other PvP games” that half the playerbase would leave WvW and PvP and go back to PvE.

..and doubleposting to say…

I am still angry. I just dont want GW2 to go down the same road GW1 went. I hated how in GW1 when a class got Buffed up, the very next day, around 30% of the players in AB were of that class while many would disappear. After the first major Elementalist Nerf, a lot of of us got trapped into D/D ele because of how Blasting Staff made targeting worse. Nerf AoE damage overall and I guarantee you that whatever is good out of Staff Elementalist will be gone….and no one will play it.

In fact nerf down D/D ele, and that is pretty much the end of Elementalist as we know it unless ever ele starts going Scepter/Dagger….:(

Never ceases to amaze, but not shock me, how many whinge about D/D users.
As has been said in sooooooooooooo many threads, lowest hp, armour, damage & all it takes is one or two stuns/immobilizes & no matter how good that Ele` is, chances are it is dead.

Mate came back to the game & we both entered empty spvp servers to give him practice for WvWs (he`s only played a week or so prior & neither of us have been in spvp since bwe)

Within a few minutes, even he realised all you had to do was stun someone for an easy life, keep at range & kite, same result.

As for our “OP” heals, ye gads, he cast some instant heal on his Guardian that out healed anything any Ele` could do.

But yeah, Ele` has OP damage…Oh wait, that`s right, we don`t, it is a battle of over time killing as opposed to some Thief doing insane damage in comparison with the additional huge advantage of stealth.
Even a decent Ranger can keep you out of range, crippled etc
Warrior damage & their Vengeance, sheesh! Time that half right & there should be no problem.

I`ve a bank alt Guardian at 42, still haven`t bought Master traits box & can handle D/D Ele easily enough (probably helps as my main is one).

Definitely a case of players needing to bind their stun/immobilize skill to their space bar, make it easier for them ;p

As for what Anet will do to this profession, only time will tell & considering their “We don`t want to whack-a-mole” only to then do exactly that re:EA etc, I`ve little faith.

grabs popcorn

Gaudrath.6725:

I am still amused when I realize people actually think devs base their balance decisions on forum whining and bragging.

They base their balance decisions on a great deal of factors, one of which is partly public perception and the effect it has on game play.

Public perception drives game play decisions of what is and isn’t acceptable. If every time someone comes to the forums asking how to play and every time the same responses are repeated (d/d, bunker build, arcane spec, etc) then most likely said players will also play that way. This helps drives the data they then see in game in regards to how players spec and play the game.

If someone comes up with an alternative build (or different way to play the character) and it’s viewed as “stupid” or “laughable” because again the other build is simply “better” (or rather is publicly accepted as better) in every way, shape and form then clearly there’s a problem there. The problem isn’t that they came up with a bad idea, it’s that there’s another build that’s so strong that not playing that way is considered bad.

If you want to be ignorant of that fact, by all means, but don’t be surprised when you see certain builds get nerfed as a result.

Kodiak.3281:

Gaudrath.6725:

I am still amused when I realize people actually think devs base their balance decisions on forum whining and bragging.

They base their balance decisions on a great deal of factors, one of which is partly public perception and the effect it has on game play.

Public perception drives game play decisions of what is and isn’t acceptable. If every time someone comes to the forums asking how to play and every time the same responses are repeated (d/d, bunker build, arcane spec, etc) then most likely said players will also play that way. This helps drives the data they then see in game in regards to how players spec and play the game.

If someone comes up with an alternative build (or different way to play the character) and it’s viewed as “stupid” or “laughable” because again the other build is simply “better” (or rather is publicly accepted as better) in every way, shape and form then clearly there’s a problem there. The problem isn’t that they came up with a bad idea, it’s that there’s another build that’s so strong that not playing that way is considered bad.

If you want to be ignorant of that fact, by all means, but don’t be surprised when you see certain builds get nerfed as a result.

You mean useless builds? The only reason why this topic exists is because ele bunker build is too tough in sPvP. The only thing that build is good for there is for capping points or preventing their capture, whatever.

In WvW it is useless. Worse than useless actually, since harassing doesn’t mean much if you can’t kill something, and in zerg vs zerg if all you can do is run away efficiently, you might as well not be there.

Devs base their decisions on metrics. You know, the data those handy developer tools collect throughout the game? They do not base it on “public perception”… if they were in the business of changing their game based on what a vocal micro-minority of their playerbase whines about on the forums, it would quickly turn into a total mess.

If you want real data, you check out metrics. You check out how many players have high level elementalist characters and the WvW/PvE/sPvP play time ratios. You check out the damage averages, you check out kill/death ratios etc. A hundred different things. And then you do the math.

You don’t go to the forums and read what Billy the Thief has to say about a class he never played, or allow a biased opinion of a handful of players to influence decisions which impact hundreds of thousands. No MMO company in history ever listened to what players have to say about class balance on forums, and for a good reason. ANet is no different.

Kodiak.3281:

Gaudrath.6725:

I am still amused when I realize people actually think devs base their balance decisions on forum whining and bragging.

They base their balance decisions on a great deal of factors, one of which is partly public perception and the effect it has on game play.

Public perception drives game play decisions of what is and isn’t acceptable. If every time someone comes to the forums asking how to play and every time the same responses are repeated (d/d, bunker build, arcane spec, etc) then most likely said players will also play that way. This helps drives the data they then see in game in regards to how players spec and play the game.

If someone comes up with an alternative build (or different way to play the character) and it’s viewed as “stupid” or “laughable” because again the other build is simply “better” (or rather is publicly accepted as better) in every way, shape and form then clearly there’s a problem there. The problem isn’t that they came up with a bad idea, it’s that there’s another build that’s so strong that not playing that way is considered bad.

If you want to be ignorant of that fact, by all means, but don’t be surprised when you see certain builds get nerfed as a result.

While that work in a negative way ( nerfs ) it never works in a positive way ( buffs ), sometimes the playerbase can make reasonable request for buffs, we both know that the ele community has been asking for reasonable buffs on other weapon set or buff to trait lines….we’ve been doing this for months and months…but no response and we’ve got totally ignored then when people get pushed in corner its just then that Anet come forward with the nerf hammer

-You want me to play staff? Then give me the means to keep enemies at distance, but with only a decent snare skill ( frozen ground) at a rather high CD ( 40s)
Sure staff is great as support weapon and the dmg not half bad…but for the rest you’re extremely limited in what you can do if a thief decide to sit on you 24/7 and every other 1vs1 become a serious challenge even against average opponents, and this because they made so that staff can’t be used effectively without people shielding you ( basically babysitting you)

-You want me to play scepter? Then make so that the heavy burst skill hit more reliably and improve the other skills like many of us have suggested before

Gaudrath.6725:

I am still amused when I realize people actually think devs base their balance decisions on forum whining and bragging.

You’d be surprised at the level of laziness that can occur in the development process. Combine that with this being a free to play game and that likelihood increases dramatically. That has happened in a lot of other games before this one and will continue to happen in the future in many other games. Forum balancing requires no paid testers! Isn’t that the whole point of getting feedback from the top pvp players btw? That’s pretty much the same as forum balancing when you ask players what they think is OP….you’re just going to get whine about who beat them or in this case…who they were not able to kill.

Shimond.2478:

Gaudrath.6725:

I am still amused when I realize people actually think devs base their balance decisions on forum whining and bragging.

Yea like they’re so incompetent they can’t monitor what people are doing in the game.

I don’t think its ever an issue of “can’t”. Its more of an issue of do they spend the time and resources to do that in a free to play game…or do they take the overwhelming whine consensus at their word and save development time and cost.

Its also an issue of satisfying the player base. If the majority sees something as broken and they don’t capitulate with ensuing nerfs, then the perception is that they don’t know what they are doing. This potentially hurts them worse than not nerfing something that may not be broken to begin with.

I’m expecting a nerf to our bunkerage since people can’t seem to over come the FOTM eles in pvp (most are easy to beat with weaker / lesser build lol).

I do hope for some buffs to our damage though, miss my rediculous burst S/D build so much.

TGSlasher.1458:

I’m expecting a nerf to our bunkerage since people can’t seem to over come the FOTM eles in pvp (most are easy to beat with weaker / lesser build lol).

I do hope for some buffs to our damage though, miss my rediculous burst S/D build so much.

Ele really doesn’t need a damage increase. I’m actually somewhat worried about them nerfing our damage as well as our bunker.

Gaudrath.6725:

You don’t go to the forums and read what Billy the Thief has to say about a class he never played, or allow a biased opinion of a handful of players to influence decisions which impact hundreds of thousands. No MMO company in history ever listened to what players have to say about class balance on forums, and for a good reason. ANet is no different.

Lets take a more realistic scenario. Billy the Elementalist posts on the forums and states his views on the elementalist builds and why the one he uses is the best build and shows a number of videos of him doing well. Meanwhile as new people come to the forums asking for builds and advice, Billy the Elementalist’s advice gets repeated over and over as new examples of doing well get propped up. As others begin to speak of other viable builds, these are quickly shot down as inferior.

This begins to have an impact in game. People who level up and play an Elementalist are all following Billy’s advice and build and other builds aren’t able to thrive. Whether or not Billy’s build is best for all scenarios is irrelevant, all that matters is the public perception that Billy’s build is the best and so that’s what people go with. This all begins to show up in…wait for it…the metrics!

The other night I sat in Fire the entire time during 3 AC runs. I had a Guardian who proceeded to tell me I was a bad elementalist (despite never going down compared to him going downed nearly once a boss fight). I asked him if he had an elementalist, and he said he had a 26 Ele alt and everything he read on the forums was how any decent Ele would never stay in one attunement very long. An 80 Guardian with a 26 Ele alt who read the same puked up crap over and over on the forums wants to tell me who’s been playing an Elementalist since kitten near day one how to play and spec. You’re right though, clearly the forums have zero impact on metrics…

…clueless.

Would you guys relax. You have literally taken a talk pertaining to Spvp and applied it to PvE. Now until they nerf us in PvE I see no point in the chicken little skyfall routine. In Spvp lets be honest it has to be nerfed. If you have played tournament with 3 DD bunker eles you’ll get what the problem is and there isn’t that much room for complaint on out side anymore.

In WvW it doesn’t matter. That place is inherently unbalanced and chaotic and anyone who complains about us there must be joking.

In PvE we are middle of the road and that’s fine.

Unless they apply nerfs to pve also (we have seen no indication of that and they said themselves they will likely split the nerf) then I see no reason for all this panic.

Admittedly I have been on thief much more the past month in case they do (plus I enjoy S/D game play). if they go down that road I doubt I will rage quit or anything like that but I will have lost faith in the balance team and the product over all.

TheGuy.3568:

Would you guys relax. You have literally taken a talk pertaining to Spvp and applied it to PvE. Now until they nerf us in PvE I see no point in the chicken little skyfall routine. In Spvp lets be honest it has to be nerfed. If you have played tournament with 3 DD bunker eles you’ll get what the problem is and there isn’t that much room for complaint on out side anymore.

The ways they discussed nerfing us was that some of our healing support when piled on top of each other is too effective. A very specific example was permanent Fury which is a thing for us. Another was the way all our tiny heals, regens, and condition removals all stacked up together giving us very strong defense.

It’s extremely unlikely, or at least they haven’t so far, take the time to separate said nerfs from PvE/sPVP/WvW because they want the game play feel to be “consistent” (as if sPvP felt at all like PvE or WvW even in the slightest).

So yea, it all kinda pertains.

Read up on other class forums. Same complaints, different names. People complain about anything. I run a ‘zerker build and do just fine in WvW. Yes, I get instagibbed by glass cannon thieves, but that’s what they do. I can run with daggers in the middle of a zerg, throw a tornado on and toss people around, and get out alive. So no, you don’t have to run a bunker build to survive. Just know what you can do and when you can do it.

As for devs… trust me, if devs listened to players’ opinions on class balance, every class would be OP and we would be oneshotting each other from half a map away.
There is a reason they don’t listen to player opinion.
Because it isn’t enough data, even when it is a trend (in ele case, bunker builds are a bad trend) and because it isn’t objective.

And every MMO is a business, including GW2. They have tools to keep that business running. Every MMO has developer tools and metrics. You can’t run a MMO without those. Period.

I admit that I don’t PVP. However, in a game like GW2 I really wouldn’t be surprised if all this talk about nerf is due to people not understanding how to fight an elementalist properly. For all I know, these people could be backstab thieves complaining they can’t two shot an elementalist, or a necromancer complaining that they can’t kill an elementalist because they get all their conditions remove.

Any possible number of things can happen. And the thing is? You aren’t going to see people who actually take the time to do the math and everything on the forums talking about nerfs: All you’ll get are people who got killed by an ele in WvW/PvP because they expected to be able to faceroll a light armor class, and now they’re going “ZOMG NERF”

With some of the calls to nerf RTL’s range, I found it kind of funny that the range was randomly increased.

A few days ago, I was having a discussion about whether RTL was affected by speed buffs like most charge attacks. I used the location below to measure the range and it was the same regardless of what speed buffs I used.

Today, I repeated the test and found that RTL’s range is actually ~300 units further than it used to be.

There’s a video of a zerker staff ele solo’ing the risen abomination boss in Arah path 2 while staying in fire the entire fight. Saw it in the dungeon forum, wish I could find it.

Just as there are situations where switching attunements is necessary, there are also situations where it isn’t.

Alilinke.7690:

There’s a video of a zerker staff ele solo’ing the risen abomination boss in Arah path 2 while staying in fire the entire fight. Saw it in the dungeon forum, wish I could find it.

Just as there are situations where switching attunements is necessary, there are also situations where it isn’t.

Isn’t that the boss that does nothing but throw slow moving rocks at targets outside of melee range?

Just about anything could solo that guy.

Caffynated.5713:

Alilinke.7690:

There’s a video of a zerker staff ele solo’ing the risen abomination boss in Arah path 2 while staying in fire the entire fight. Saw it in the dungeon forum, wish I could find it.

Just as there are situations where switching attunements is necessary, there are also situations where it isn’t.

Isn’t that the boss that does nothing but throw slow moving rocks at targets outside of melee range?

Just about anything could solo that guy.

Yes he’s easy to solo, but that’s besides the point. Switching out of fire wouldn’t help.

btw, he also has a knock back, goes into a berserker mode and is capable of one-shoting you.

Kodiak.3281:

TheGuy.3568:

Would you guys relax. You have literally taken a talk pertaining to Spvp and applied it to PvE. Now until they nerf us in PvE I see no point in the chicken little skyfall routine. In Spvp lets be honest it has to be nerfed. If you have played tournament with 3 DD bunker eles you’ll get what the problem is and there isn’t that much room for complaint on out side anymore.

The ways they discussed nerfing us was that some of our healing support when piled on top of each other is too effective. A very specific example was permanent Fury which is a thing for us. Another was the way all our tiny heals, regens, and condition removals all stacked up together giving us very strong defense.

It’s extremely unlikely, or at least they haven’t so far, take the time to separate said nerfs from PvE/sPVP/WvW because they want the game play feel to be “consistent” (as if sPvP felt at all like PvE or WvW even in the slightest).

So yea, it all kinda pertains.

Wait a second… they give us garbage for HP, nil for defense, build us around keeping boons up, then say it’s wrong for us to have fury?!

We HAVE to stack toughness as D/D to not go SPLAT.

We Can’t Viably Stack Crit As D/D!

Perma-fury is supposed to compensate for that, but only if you’re active, and only if your opponent doesn’t strip boons like crazy.

Just the thought of them nerfing us has kept me from logging on for over a week.

The idea that they’re targeting zephyr’s boon makes me want to file a refund ticket.

I will not be logging in until the next patch.

If I see any dents to fury on the patch notes I’m filing a refund ticket and going to PWI titles where the loot sucks less and at least there are better armor skins.

^
I am currently running around in wvw with ~67% crit with fury and 91% crit damage which I’m hoping to get up to 100% with ascended gear. I run a similar setup in tpvp, except with lower numbers due to gear differences of course. I am far from the only ele running glass.

One thing I’m looking forward to with this patch is the fact that a lot of people who believe eles can only survive if built full tank are going to be forced to either actually learn the class or move on to another. Should really cut down on the fotmness.

plasmacutter.2709:

Kodiak.3281:

TheGuy.3568:

Would you guys relax. You have literally taken a talk pertaining to Spvp and applied it to PvE. Now until they nerf us in PvE I see no point in the chicken little skyfall routine. In Spvp lets be honest it has to be nerfed. If you have played tournament with 3 DD bunker eles you’ll get what the problem is and there isn’t that much room for complaint on out side anymore.

The ways they discussed nerfing us was that some of our healing support when piled on top of each other is too effective. A very specific example was permanent Fury which is a thing for us. Another was the way all our tiny heals, regens, and condition removals all stacked up together giving us very strong defense.

It’s extremely unlikely, or at least they haven’t so far, take the time to separate said nerfs from PvE/sPVP/WvW because they want the game play feel to be “consistent” (as if sPvP felt at all like PvE or WvW even in the slightest).

So yea, it all kinda pertains.

Wait a second… they give us garbage for HP, nil for defense, build us around keeping boons up, then say it’s wrong for us to have fury?!

We HAVE to stack toughness as D/D to not go SPLAT.

We Can’t Viably Stack Crit As D/D!

Perma-fury is supposed to compensate for that, but only if you’re active, and only if your opponent doesn’t strip boons like crazy.

Just the thought of them nerfing us has kept me from logging on for over a week.

The idea that they’re targeting zephyr’s boon makes me want to file a refund ticket.

I will not be logging in until the next patch.

If I see any dents to fury on the patch notes I’m filing a refund ticket and going to PWI titles where the loot sucks less and at least there are better armor skins.

Depending on how they nerf the elementalist will dictate whether or not I continue logging into the game.

SPVP is borefest. I can count on my fingers the total amount of people playing SPVP. I couldn`t give a rat`s you know what about SPVP balance.

dreztina.4820:

^
I am currently running around in wvw with ~67% crit with fury and 91% crit damage which I’m hoping to get up to 100% with ascended gear. I run a similar setup in tpvp, except with lower numbers due to gear differences of course. I am far from the only ele running glass.

One thing I’m looking forward to with this patch is the fact that a lot of people who believe eles can only survive if built full tank are going to be forced to either actually learn the class or move on to another. Should really cut down on the fotmness.

To leave extreme defense for extreme offense really doesn’t say anything about balance of a profession, between 2 glass cannon , normally the quickest player win..the one who one-shot the other first…

When I bought this game, I didn’t sign for a free-to play FPS ty very much, I have always been running balanced builds. never used extreme bunker builds and played few times extreme offense build in sPvP, I’d rather have a game with balanced gameplay than people one-shooting themself left and right

Arheundel.6451:

To leave extreme defense for extreme offense really doesn’t say anything about balance of a profession, between 2 glass cannon , normally the quickest player win..the one who one-shot the other first…

When I bought this game, I didn’t sign for a free-to play FPS ty very much, I have always been running balanced builds. never used extreme bunker builds and played few times extreme offense build in sPvP, I’d rather have a game with balanced gameplay than people one-shooting themself left and right

All I was saying is that damage ele is perfectly good and you don’t need to go full bunker to be viable. I have no problem with balanced builds; the problem is that the balanced build is in fact not balanced.

Arheundel.6451:

dreztina.4820:

^
I am currently running around in wvw with ~67% crit with fury and 91% crit damage which I’m hoping to get up to 100% with ascended gear. I run a similar setup in tpvp, except with lower numbers due to gear differences of course. I am far from the only ele running glass.

One thing I’m looking forward to with this patch is the fact that a lot of people who believe eles can only survive if built full tank are going to be forced to either actually learn the class or move on to another. Should really cut down on the fotmness.

To leave extreme defense for extreme offense really doesn’t say anything about balance of a profession, between 2 glass cannon , normally the quickest player win..the one who one-shot the other first…

When I bought this game, I didn’t sign for a free-to play FPS ty very much, I have always been running balanced builds. never used extreme bunker builds and played few times extreme offense build in sPvP, I’d rather have a game with balanced gameplay than people one-shooting themself left and right

This.

I’m very ticked that ANet allowed players do build this glassy, and pidgeon-holed ele defense into “out-heal everything or die” rather than active mitigation like most other professions.

Everyone comes into this game with rationality bounded by trinity games, builds “max dps”, then gets destroyed and cries on the forums.

People who do this should be laughed at and ridiculed by ANet cm’s, not apologized to with promises to nerf the big bad class that killed them.

Bunkers are boring as sin, do no damage, and can’t kill balanced builds.

They are used ONLY because thieves can kill you, with no advanced warning, in less time than it takes for the bits to reach you from your server.

That is ludicrous, and yet they unilaterally say “yeah we’re nerfing eles” while posting to the thief forums politely asking these kings of overpoweredness how they would like their class to play.

It’s an RPG version of what happened between 2008 and now with big banks, the rest of us, and our government.

ANet sees backstab thief builds utterly breaking this game, and instead of fixing them, they go around sledge-hammering the core mechanics of any class that counters them while “politely asking” them how they would like the game remade for them.

The thread is still there in the theif forums. Thief wars 2.