Guild Wars 2

Hello guys!

Well, I’m back to play GW2 today. So I’m out about new meta etc, but I always prefer play Ele with D/F and Staff so, can you guys send me goods build for both weapons?

Thanks!

Also, I need to know about gears too!

Well I will go with the easy and imperfect answer and suggest looking a MetaBattle.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki

That’s actually the right answer Taiyetos.

Then if they want something different THEN we get into imperfect answer territory because you’ll have the drone swarm will come out and poop on anything not meta.

Kodiak.3281:

That’s actually the right answer Taiyetos.

Then if they want something different THEN we get into imperfect answer territory because you’ll have the drone swarm will come out and poop on anything not meta.

The only person talking about the meta is you Kodiak.

We are the most advanced class with the highest variety of builds and tons of variations. I have almost never seen anyone from this educated community say “your build is not meta enough so you will perform poorly” but I have seen you crusade upon every single PvE thread and copy-paste your usual rant against anyone who would advise efficiency. You name me as the evil mind behind this “drone swarm” of people who want to perform well. Yet the D/F build for which I am known has never been considered as “meta”. However this build is efficient, and this is why it has gained unprecedented popularity. So you see, it is perfectly possible, and perfectly acceptable to be different. In fact it is encouraged. Therefore you should relax, Kodiak. Your inquisition against the people who give clever and efficient advice is pointless.

tldr

but I do use your D/F build for pve

That’s all that matters my friend

Zelyhn, I use D/F for both PvE and PvP now :p

Edit: +1 for your post.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

The only person talking about the meta is you Kodiak.

We are the most advanced class with the highest variety of builds and tons of variations. I have almost never seen anyone from this educated community say “your build is not meta enough so you will perform poorly” but I have seen you crusade upon every single PvE thread and copy-paste your usual rant against anyone who would advise efficiency. You name me as the evil mind behind this “drone swarm” of people who want to perform well. Yet the D/F build for which I am known has never been considered as “meta”. However this build is efficient, and this is why it has gained unprecedented popularity. So you see, it is perfectly possible, and perfectly acceptable to be different. In fact it is encouraged. Therefore you should relax, Kodiak. Your inquisition against the people who give clever and efficient advice is pointless.

On the one hand you lead out saying we have the highest variety of builds with tons of variations. You also say no one says people’s builds are not “meta” enough so you will perform poorly. On the other hand you immediately then launch into an entire rant about efficiency.

“We have lots of variety of builds and lots of viable builds but this is the most efficient way to play and if you’re not playing this you are inefficient and bad.”

That’s a contradiction, and like any contradiction one side invariably gives. Know what that side is? Variety and variation. You go to any thread asking for advice, no one talks about variety or variation. Everyone talks about efficiency.

That’s great. Honestly, truly, it is fantastic. However, don’t sit there and claim we have tons of variety and variation when everyone recommends the same two builds for SPvP, another two builds for PvE, and another two builds for WvW and any kind of variation or variety from that is slammed as inefficient, bad, or terrible.

There is a difference between “meta” and efficient. All meta builds are efficient, but not all efficient builds are meta.

So thanks to our vast building possibilities we have a lots of efficient builds. We have three main build archetypes for PvE and each one of these have many variations. In fact advanced players do not even limit their minds to those archetypes and they constantly innovate by combining assets from each builds. It is their ability to efficiently innovate that makes them outperform the competition.

Two builds for PvE you say? And the rest is bad? When I wrote my D/F guide many people thought it was bad. Then they tried it, and they realised that despite the build being unorthodox it is efficient, good, and wonderful. So there is not “one most efficient way to play”, but there are inefficient ways to play and these will not be given any attention.

I am getting tired of repeating the same things to you on every single thread Kodiak. I understand that it must feel good to be the one standing up against the accepted way of thinking, to be the one challenging this inhuman system. But despite your will to be different you have not contributed any build that has helped the community so far.

So keep trying to be different if you will, but stop antagonizing those who want to be efficient.

“Next up tonight is the Zelyhn Story, how one poor Elementalist fought against all odds to get his build accepted in a sea of inefficient players. Starring Dudly Doright as Zelyhn and Snidely Whiplash as that mean ol’ Kodiak.”

lol…

I mean you make it sound like someone changing from Major Trait III to Major Trait IV is ground breaking game play innovation. “For this boss…deep breath…I’m going to use Signet of Air instead of Armor of Earth….I know it’s risky but I’m a trend setter! Someone has to pave these roads!” yet they all pretty much run around the same traits and the same gear with the same game play.

Here’s the truth buddy. I wouldn’t submit anything to this community even if I somehow did manage to come up with some groundbreaking breakthrough because it’s pretty toxic. That was the entire point of my original post here. Everything is great and dandy if you’re suggesting the meta, but the minute someone, anyone, posts something outside of it and it’s usually ridiculed, slammed and put down. Even you had to fight to get people to try something good, which is ridiculous.

The only reason builds can’t co-exist with each other is because people start to label one build better or worse than another. Maybe that’s what you don’t understand. I don’t care if your build or another build or whatever is most efficient. I care that there’s no room for anything else with that kind of mentality and posts.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

There is a difference between “meta” and efficient. All meta builds are efficient, but not all efficient builds are meta.

So thanks to our vast building possibilities we have a lots of efficient builds. We have three main build archetypes for PvE and each one of these have many variations. In fact advanced players do not even limit their minds to those archetypes and they constantly innovate by combining assets from each builds. It is their ability to efficiently innovate that makes them outperform the competition.

Two builds for PvE you say? And the rest is bad? When I wrote my D/F guide many people thought it was bad. Then they tried it, and they realised that despite the build being unorthodox it is efficient, good, and wonderful. So there is not “one most efficient way to play”, but there are inefficient ways to play and these will not be given any attention.

I am getting tired of repeating the same things to you on every single thread Kodiak. I understand that it must feel good to be the one standing up against the accepted way of thinking, to be the one challenging this inhuman system. But despite your will to be different you have not contributed any build that has helped the community so far.

So keep trying to be different if you will, but stop antagonizing those who want to be efficient.

+1
Well said. Zelyhn for President! Although it’s kinda sad to see there aren’t many possibilities to have fun builds in PvE.

For WvW, It’s quite fun to run a 0/6/0/6/2 build with staff

Running: Bolt to the Heart, Air Training, Lightning Rod
Cantrip Mastery Soothing Disruption, Cleansing Water
Blasting Staff

For armors/trinkets, run as much celestial/knights as you need to stay alive. Do try to keep your power above 2200. I personally run Zeker everything except for pants and chest armors, which are celestial.

Iris Ng.9845:

Although it’s kinda sad to see there aren’t many possibilities to have fun builds in PvE.

Lots of possibilities to have fun builds. You just can’t talk about them because if you do they get slammed for not being efficient.

Hamster.4861:

For WvW, It’s quite fun to run a 0/6/0/6/2 build with staff

Running: Bolt to the Heart, Air Training, Lightning Rod
Cantrip Mastery Soothing Disruption, Cleansing Water
Blasting Staff

For armors/trinkets, run as much celestial/knights as you need to stay alive. Do try to keep your power above 2200. I personally run Zeker everything except for pants and chest armors, which are celestial.

Yea that was always a solid build. Lots of self survivability.

These days in WvW when I run my Elementalist I stick to a 06242 or a 06044 build for running with a group. Cleansing Wave is a nice AOE condition cleanse and without 4 in Arcane Cleansing Water just has no regen to spread around to clear extra conditions. Meanwhile the 2 in Earth is strong for anti-burst situations or the Renewing Stamina from 4 in Arcane is handy for additional dodge rolls since it’s super easy to proc at least one crit in somewhere. I also prefer Aeromancer Alacrity for lower cool downs but Training is decent now too with LRod.

Gear is always a crunch unfortunately and we’re forced to gear a little toughness and a little HP to make up for our natural deficiencies in WvW play. This makes us either give up damage to stay alive or attempt to risk it as a bit more offensive for Lightning Rod damage. Constant source frustration for me with the Elementalist since the beginning.

Kodiak.3281:

Here’s the truth buddy. I wouldn’t submit anything to this community even if I somehow did manage to come up with some groundbreaking breakthrough because it’s pretty toxic. That was the entire point of my original post here. Everything is great and dandy if you’re suggesting the meta, but the minute someone, anyone, posts something outside of it and it’s usually ridiculed, slammed and put down. Even you had to fight to get people to try something good, which is ridiculous.

No it is not ridiculous. I was no one. I was just a basic member in an unknown french guild, and I was not very skilled. But I wrote my guide because I believe in my build. At that time most players were using daphoenix’s bunker DD build, and efficient players were using variations of Kitsune’s LH build. Neko was our dedicated compiler of knowledge and he did a great work. As you can still see from the first replies on my old DF thread, my build was not so well received in the beginning, and rightly so! I engaged into discussions with Neko and the community, I proved my points, and I improved my build thanks to their comments. But the best was yet to come: I was soon contacted by Haviz, co-leader of rT, and he told me that he likes the way I am thinking and that I should join his fotm80 team. For those of you who don’t know Haviz is nicknamed the Dark Lord because he is incredibly skilled, he is probably the most “toxic” player out there, and he hates mediocrity Playing alongside rT members challenged my views and pushed me to improve my skills as well as my builds. Then I joined rT, and then Dulfy asked us to write guides for her website. Pardon me for sounding immodest, but what this story means is that it is perfectly possible to think out of the box, even if you are “no one”. If your ideas are good they will come on top. If your ideas are bad they will be crushed into oblivion. Such is life, and it is all for the good of the community.

Kodiak.3281:

The only reason builds can’t co-exist with each other is because people start to label one build better or worse than another. Maybe that’s what you don’t understand. I don’t care if your build or another build or whatever is most efficient. I care that there’s no room for anything else with that kind of mentality and posts.

After more than two years of existence, what else did you expect? Builds are ways of specialising our characters. Just like in life, if you specialise in something you will be good at it but you will be worse at the rest! So yes, builds can and will be labelled. I don’t think that this is bad. In fact it makes us have to chose. Decisions is all life is about Some decisions are good, some are bad. I am traditionally a support player myself, so I wish we had more build diversity to fulfill this purpose. But I can not complain too much: other classes have it much worse. This is not because of the community’s mentality, quite the opposite: the community learned it the hard way as we confronted the challenges this game has to offer.

Maybe your inquisitive energy is not put to the best of uses Kodiak. It seems to me that your enemy is not the community but the game design itself.

Oh yea I forgot sarcasm and a bit of hyperbole to make a point go completely over your head. But yea neat, cool story, bro.

Only thing I’ve ever expected is to let people choose for themselves. Five different flavors of Cherry ain’t variety. The berserker meta is plastered everywhere. It’s stickied in this forum. As you say it’s on Dulfy. It’s all over Metabattle. It’s replied to incessantly in any thread where someone asks for build advice. To not see it, you really gotta look hard, and that’s kinda shameful to us as an Elementalist community.

Are you really incapable of making an argument to use the Berserker build without deriding and thrashing any other build because it’s “inefficient?” If someone asks for advice and 8 people respond with the Beserker meta and two guys post some off the wall builds as random ideas is that going to topple your regime or suddenly undo the meta entirely? Who knows? It may not be me, it may not be the next guy, but maybe someone with an off the wall idea comes up with something that inspires someone else to create the next meta build or a tweak there in.

Simply put it all comes back to what I said. Everything is fine if you recommend the meta. The minute you stray from “your different flavors of Cherry” well look out…here comes the angry swarm because you’ve “threatened” them with your cooky ideas. Oh and God forbid you point any of this out. Then you’re some “crusader” on a “holy war” (I honestly can’t read that without rolling my eyes).

Kodiak.3281:

Only thing I’ve ever expected is to let people choose for themselves.

I doubt I have so much power that I can make people do my bidding over the internet

People come here for advice, the community delivers.

I see you have a problem with the dominance of the zerker gear. I can understand that. I too have a problem with some of the features of the “meta”: I hate sceptre. I never use this weapon, and you will almost never see me theorycraft anything about it. But have you ever seen me crusade (yes please roll your eyes) against the people advising others to use sceptre builds? Even though I dislike this weapon I can understand that it is the most efficient choice for a lot of people (sceptre with conjures of course, this weapon is awful on its own).

It just happens that scpetre is efficient for many aspects of PvE, and that zerker gear is efficient for all aspects of PvE.

What do you really expect to do against that? I used to play healer and support in previous games, and I really wish I could have this role in gw2, but I went full zerker the moment I laid my eyes on the stats. I went out of my way so that I could achieve more. I had fun doing that. If you have fun remaining true to your way by playing alternative builds then no one could possibly advise you against that. But there is a hard truth: you will be less efficient. I expect players to make their own decisions, but I want them to know the facts before, so that their decisions are educated.

But Zel, scepter is so OP in PvP, too. So is Zerker armor. I think I have all the turret engis in NA in my followers’ list.

P.S.: I play 56201

Edit to reply: I don’t think you will ever succeed in swaying his firm belief :p

Come on Iris I am close to making Kodiak understand he is wrong after almost two years of him lurking around and pestering us with his “I am different, you are all drones”, don’t ruin it now!

You’re nothing of the sort because you guys are incapable of understanding anything but extremes. Everything must be black or white. Good or bad. You’re not going to convince me that your extreme is better than the extreme you think I am at when I’m firmly in the middle.

For example Iris. I never once said Scepter was super awesome amazing OP in all game modes should be meta for Elementalist in all situations. All I’ve ever said and continue to say is that Scepter is serviceable and gets the job done. However in me saying that you guys seem to take it as I’m directly making an attacking staves and daggers and everyone should use a Scepter at all times. I’m not. I’m saying if you like how Scepter plays, you’re perfectly capable of doing all the game content with it except maybe some fringe content most people don’t do (such as extremely high Fractals).

Zelyhn, I’ve stated numerous times I have no problems with the berserker meta. First thing you reply with? “I see you have a problem with the dominance of berserker.” I mean I don’t even know how to respond to that or make it any more clear than that. What I have a problem with is how people who espouse the Berserker meta hate on anything that isn’t the Berserker meta. I don’t care what the hot new thing is, I care that the people who are going on about the hot thing won’t let anything else even be suggested without it being trashed.

As for efficiency, I guess we get to go back through this conversation. Again. The only metric I care about is if the content dies. If it takes me a few seconds or a few more minutes to get through content long as the content gets done I don’t really care. If a little bit of Toughness/Vitality makes me not have to play perfectly but I have to spend an extra rotation to down something I don’t really care. A lot of cases when people come here asking for advice, that’s all they’re looking for. They are having problems with doing the content at all, let alone doing it the fastest.

I’ve personally received PM’s from people in game all the time like that. They’re simply frustrated individuals who try and try the berserker meta but are tired of always being dead each fight cause it just doesn’t click for them and there’s no one else willing to talk about anything else. That does not mean to imply that I’m some sort of “crusader” fighting for oppressed people or anything, only that it’s kinda sad that there’s nothing else out there for them. Why is that? Because people simply won’t let there be.

I see you have a problem with the dominance of efficiency

In all seriousness, if you want to write a guide for users wishing to have more defensive stats then by all means do it. I think it’s useless as defensive stats simply give you an illusion of survivability, so you do not even learn and you never improve. The only survivability boost that could be required while learning to rely only on active defense to stay alive can be obtained by defensive traits, so defensive gear is useless in the medium and long term. If someone comes here and tells me they have problems surviving while being zerker I would tell them to use a defensive build and I would give them tips to learn how to dodge, so that they improve and they become efficient rapidly. If you want to spuriously appease their woes by advising them to indulge into using passive defense then go ahead. But I am an optimist: I believe anybody can learn to be efficient the way I learnt it. So I won’t give in to illusive short-term solutions.

Well writing a guide right now before HOT seems kinda pointless for anyone for any class. They’ve already stated that not only were they going to be going through each class and changing out the base class abilities (to incorporate new mechanics like Resistance or Taunts) but they’re also changing other mechanics (such as no longer capped bleeds) as well as specializations on top of all that. I mean we currently have some of the longest lasting bleeds in the game out of any class that with maximum bleed duration at 200% we could easily stack over 25 or so bleeds just with one of us.

They’ve also stated that while they aren’t planning on nerfing things like Berserker, that maximum damage builds have come into meta because of lazy designed encounters that encourage them. It’s not unrealistic to maybe see them add encounters with HOT that include unavoidable damage and other similar mechanics that could ultimately lead to disrupting the berserker meta.

You mentioned “beating the competition” earlier in another post and it’s very telling how you see the game experience. There is no competitive PvE tournament 2015, hell there ain’t even a Fractal leader board. Quite honestly it baffles me personally how serious people seem to think builds really are given all that but that’s just me. Even if I don’t understand it, not my place to try to convince them their way of playing the game is wrong.

Here’s the part I don’t get about your advice. Lets say a player is doing poorly with full Zerker because they can’t handle the lack of defenses. So you put them on another build entirely, which they then get used to that build’s active defenses (vigor boon, extra healing, extra condi cleanse, etc) and learn how to play with those active defenses. You then expect them to re-learn all over again and strip away all those active defenses and get used to playing without them forcing them to re-learn the character yet again. Ironically, that seems incredibly inefficient to have them learn two different builds. Now if you give them more defensive gear by comparison, they can learn on a zerker build how to survive without those active defenses because gear is passive defense. Slowly they can swap out pieces of defensive gear for offensive gear until they can handle not having defensive gear. If you really want to debate the cost of getting multiple sets of gear, I’ll be happy to educate you on how easy it is to get geared

The point of relying on active defense to survive as that it makes you learn, as opposed to relying on passive defense. As soon as you start being active – as soon as you start making decision instead of avoiding them – then you can handle anything. The build does not matter. The point not to “learn the character” as you put it, but to learn to make good decisions.

But you are right: a guide on alternative gear would be pointless. Not because of HoT, but because it would really be pointless. Such guide would just use the build archetypes we have now and inject defensive stats. I don’t think anyone needs a guide for that. And that’s an other reason why we don’t discuss alternative gear here, an other reason why your crusade is pointless.

As for gearing, it takes ages to have multiple ascended sets, so I would always advise new players to shoot for the best and fill in with whatever exotic they want in the meantime.

And for your information, 2015 barely started but we already had a competitive tournament: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/The-Guild-Wars-2-Trio-ChallengeTournament/first#post4900983
We had two last year, and they had more views then any PvP tournament before them. And long before that we started competing on speed records: http://gw2dungeons.net/Records

You think that illustrates my view of the game don’t you? You think I am a bloody elitist that takes pleasure from beating competitors? You think this is why I am adamant about being efficient? I never took part in any competition, nor record-setting, and I mostly play in pick up groups. My view of the game is that anyone can – and anyone should – feel empowered with the ability to make a difference. I want people to know the impact they have in their group. I want them to feel potent, so that they can achieve more and enjoy this game to its fullest. My pleasure is to give people the information they need.

Once we reach that point, some people will want to push further and join the competition. I rejoice at this, but this is out of my jurisdiction. Look at my guides, there is no maths, although this would be the core of my work. I have made sure that any new player can understand the concepts at hand. I give people the keys to unlock their potential, that is all. And yeah, I do not think using defensive gear helps to unlock anyone’s potential.

By the way, in my old DF guide I wrote a paragraph on using defensive gear. You still think there is “hate” on anything that does not fit the “meta” ?

We are not going to continue this debate for ages Kodiak, so let’s settle it. I understand that you can feel offended by the speed at which most people chose to disregard alternative gear. In a lot of cases the players who come here for advice are not yet fit to withstand the tests of the zerker mindset. Passive defense would solve their problems in the short term, maybe, but that would leave the real issue untouched: most of the time these players think that a build is automatic. They think that simply copying the ways of advanced players will make them better without efforts. The truth is that those players want the easy way out, but there is no such thing. In order to really improve they would need to be more critical about their performance. If we give them advice that helps them avoid decisions then they will never get better. You want people to improve, don’t you Kodiak?

Allow me to conclude by quoting the introduction of my old guide:
In this guide I will give you guidelines on how to achieve more with your character. It is important to understand that all I am going to talk about is only the “tip of the iceberg”. What makes you a good player is your knowledge of the skills, combat mechanics, team play, and content. A strong build is just a bit of help allowing you to shine brighter.

Woa I never wrote anything more pompous than that! Seriously bro, zerker rocks, just accept it

Edit: see what the game looks like without zerker gear? haha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8mBbr5llJQ

More pompous than that? You should re-read your post history.

Things will never be settled because post after post, you still continue to say, “Kodiak you’re offended by…” or “Kodiak you’re upset at…” but every time you say something new and completely off the mark. I’ve clearly stated what my grievance is, but for some reason you read it and it never registers.

As for learning Berserker play…Elementalist as a class has many active defenses if you spec into them. One of the biggest reasons I hate getting out of 4 points in Water is because I love Cleansing Wave. It’s a habit I’ve built playing this build regardless of weapon. I constantly have Vigor because I don’t run a build without Renewing Stamina. That habit is so strong I find it hard to play any character that doesn’t have permanent Vigor up all the time. These are all habits I’ve learned playing a defensive build.

People using defensive gear on berserker spec doesn’t teach them these habits but gives them enough survivability to learn. When you play Berserker spec you don’t have any of those cool downs. You don’t get any of those active defenses. Learning whether or not you should blow Magnetic Wave or Healing Rain to cleanse a condition is very important. They can actually learn how the encounters work, learn what skills to use when, and not constantly do it while dying. As they master the encounters and how to handle them they can slowly swap in more offensive gear.

You asked me what advice I’d give someone, that’s what I’d give to them. Teach them how to actually play their character and then as they learn and master their character, and more importantly the encounters, they can work their way into more offensive gear.

Right, so basically you would give them the advice that I have in my old guide and that Keyz has in her guide – the advice that the two main theorycrafters of the class keep on their guides. Thank you Kodiak, what a ground for grievance, that was definitely worth crusading against us.

Anyway you admitted that this is good for learning. And this is exactly why the community dislikes recommending alternative gear: we give long-term advice, then the players can make their own decision on how to get there. I believe that they should use defensive builds (and yes berzerker builds can have defensive cooldowns), some advise defensive gear, but in any case it is not worth dedicating more than a couple of lines in our guides to settle the debate.

Maybe you should read our guides

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Woa I never wrote anything more pompous than that! Seriously bro, zerker rocks, just accept it

Edit: see what the game looks like without zerker gear? haha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8mBbr5llJQ

that reminds me of my friend who trolls pug Arah groups with his shoutheal cleric warrior.

none thinks he isn’t zerk because he rolls crit banner and axe/x greatsword

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Right, so basically you would give them the advice that I have in my old guide and that Keyz has in her guide – the advice that the two main theorycrafters of the class keep on their guides. Thank you Kodiak, what a ground for grievance, that was definitely worth crusading against us.

Anyway you admitted that this is good for learning. And this is exactly why the community dislikes recommending alternative gear: we give long-term advice, then the players can make their own decision on how to get there. I believe that they should use defensive builds (and yes berzerker builds can have defensive cooldowns), some advise defensive gear, but in any case it is not worth dedicating more than a couple of lines in our guides to settle the debate.

Maybe you should read our guides

I have to wonder what kind of tinted glasses you wear where you read me talking about the same Berserker spec with defensive gear and you take that as me agreeing with you that people should use Berserker gear with Defensive specs. The two are not the same. Your method teaches players bad habits they will get used to and is inefficient since they have to learn everything twice (first on their temporary build, and again on their actual build). It’s bad advice and why you repeatedly have posts come here of people complaining they can’t make Berserker gear work.

Or the fact that after numerous posts, despite my grievance being in bold right in the middle of one of my posts up top clearly stating what it is you still continue to get it wrong.

It’s this level of misunderstanding that makes me really wish there was a Euro and a North American set of forums.

Kodiak.3281:

It’s this level of misunderstanding that makes me really wish there was a Euro and a North American set of forums.

Well now that is not so courteous.
Besides, I know my communication skills need improvement, but you should reread your posts: many of your sentences lack structure. I do not want to turn this debate into a personal argument though, so allow me to assure you that I have read and perfectly understood the reason for your trouble. You have a problem with what your perceive as hate towards any gear that is not berserker. I really hope I got it right, but I am not really sure since you tend to talk about “berserker builds” as well and I have no clear idea what that could be.

So the counterpoints I have kept making throughout this discussion are the following:
1) The theorycrafters behind the most efficient builds agree that defensive gear can help during the learning phase towards full berzerker. If the parents of the “meta” advise alternative gears, then how can you possibly say that they “hate” it?
2) Regardless of the problem defensive gear helps to solve this fix is only temporary. Therefore any advice giver would be unwise to dispense such guidance. Instead it makes more sense to give new players the long-term builds they need to learn to master.
3) In my view defensive gear is not only a temporary fix, it is also a bad one. I believe that defensive builds are a much better response to early learning hardship than defensive gear. This is because passive defense relieves the learner from the need to identify their mistakes. It makes new players avoid having to deal with difficulty instead of trying and failing until they succeed. In layman’s terms: you can’t get rid of your bad habbits unless you get slapped in the face every time you behave incorrectly! In contrast, defensive builds with zerker gear get you slapped but they give you the boost you need to recover, so that you don’t give up and your learn faster. You learn to make good decisions.

I have explained again why alternative gear is not being advised by this community and why you are wrong to think we “hate” it at the same time. But there is a chance that by “berserker meta” you did not mean zerker gear with whatever build, but maybe you use the adjective pertaining to the gear in order to distinguish some types of builds (traits). I must admit I have no clue what you are talking about if this is the case.

It’s true, though. For as long as you and I have gone “round and round” the biggest problem has always been a failure to communicate.

Over 2 years ago I used to argue with bunker Eles who swore up and down the “only” way to play an Elementalist is to rapidly switch between attunements. Their argument was if you weren’t switching attunements on cool down you were playing the class wrong. They all hated “bad Elementalists” who stayed in Fire all the time or a majority of the time for PvE. Everyone was convinced the only way to play an Elementalist was 100% bunker and anyone like Razer who preached 100% berserker or me who preached a route of moderation were bad.

Fast forward 2 years later and here we are again, only now the argument has changed where the “only” way to play the Elementalist is Berserker and anyone who suggests anything else is again bad. The argument now being it’s the “most efficient” way to play the class and therefore the “only” way to play the class because why should anyone choose to be inefficient?

My complaint has been and always will be that one player should fundamentally not seek out to disparage or put down or slam or trash talk or essentially make a judgement about another build. Simply state the facts about a build objectively and let people make their own judgements and decisions. Each player has their own values of what is important. For you efficiency is most important. For me getting whatever task I am doing completed is most important. For other players finding a build that lets them have fun and not playing perfect is important. It is fundamentally wrong to me for any person to say, “This is the way I play the game, and you must also play like me or you are bad/inefficient/terrible/awful/etc.”

This is what I meant in the original post I made. Everything is fine if you’re saying the same thing as everything else. The minute you veer out of that territory, boom…welcome to the next argument cause a bunch of people are going to come on out and tell you that’s the wrong way to play which is just absurd.

I was zerker two years ago and I am zerker now, because when I reached level 80 I looked at gear stats and skill coefficients, I saw that only zerker had synergy, so my choice was easy. But I came on the forums only much later

I do not “judge” other people’s builds. I never did, or at least not intentionally: sometimes I may call something “bad” because I assume that the person I am talking to has the same perspective on the game as I do, so they want to achieve the same things and therefore they have the same way of evaluating builds. But what I mean is efficient or not efficient. That is objective. And I am perfectly fine with people who chose alternative paths. Why should those people feel in any way offended by the knowledge that their choice is not the most optimal from other people’s perspectives?

If I made inefficient choices, I would like people to tell me. If they are right, then good for me: I can improve. If they are wrong, then good for me: I can prove my points and this way they improve. So there is no need to be too sensitive. Moderation does not help innovation

We can all be kind and considerate and moderate but seriously that would be extremely boring. We are not in a care bear world. I like to take sides and to have clear cut opinions. So, in the same way that you would expect people to judge builds only from the perspective of the defendant, I think those who propose builds should only perceive the comments of those who judge bearing in mind that they speak from a different perspective. I goes both ways. Once we understand this no one gets offended, helpful builds get adopted, and we don’t get bored.

But in the end, builds that are not helpful kinda deserve to be trashed

So Kodiak – you basically want people to be able to find a play style and spec that they enjoy playing.

And Zelyhn, you want to kill things as quickly and efficiently as possible, because that is the way you enjoy playing, and think is the best way to play.

What exactly is the argument? Present both your views to new players, and let them decide.

I personally played staff and pretty much camped in Fire for the longest time, because I avoided the whole idea of “builds” entirely. Then I began exploring it.

I’ve recently began playing with d/d and have been enjoying it immensely and have soloed stuff that I was previously unable to do with staff. And the traits and skill combos I think I picked were a combo of two builds. I feel like I’m challenged, and that the fights are always fun.

I plan on learning the other weapon set combos as well.

So I’ve found combos that make it enjoyable for >me< to play. “Efficient” isn’t my idea of fun, but for other people, clearly it is. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Nor is it wrong to espouse a viewpoint of finding a build that is individual to you and that you enjoy playing. I’ve read your discussions, and you really both should just agree to disagree and point your discussions towards the people asking the questions instead of taking over threads to rehash the same things over and over again with each other.

A gentlemen’s agreement to not kitten over each other’s posts would be awesome.

Or not. It’s just sad that people (like me) who do like to learn new things have to pick through threads just to find one useful piece of information.

Lord Arhan Warmark.7098:

I’ve read your discussions, and you really both should just agree to disagree

Or not.

I guess not, sorry We should not agree to disagree, I really dislike this idea. Unless one of us is being irrational then we will necessarily find a way to understand each other. Debates need closure. Not that I expect that my point of view will prevail, but I hate to leave discussions unfinished. We have remained cordial for this one, so allow us this chance to put an end to our disagreement

That makes it simple for me really then. I’ll just avoid any threads that involve you guys going back and forth saying the same things over and over again. That’s my point. There is no real discussion. You might as well be a Republican and a Democrat trying to reach some middle ground.

If there was going to be “closure” it would have happened by now. If you were debating a single point, such as “efficiency”, you’d be the winner. Since the debate is broader than that, which is; the style of gameplay that people enjoy (best build being entirely subjective in that context), it will never end. When people are asking for advice on builds, what they enjoy and take away from the game is very different from what I may want out of the game. Or you. Or Kodiak.

So, now that we’ve established that this discussion of yours will be repeated ad nauseum, I know to just ignore it, and avoid these threads like the plague.

Polite or not, it’s just simply boring to read. But have at it.

Kodiak I almost forgot the most important point:

This is a social game. The actions of each individuals have consequences for those around them. Therefore, players should consider their contributions to the people they play with. If everybody went with some build they like that was completely inefficient then no group would ever succeed. A certain level of efficiency is required to complete content. Besides, every body likes to feel like they can achieve something. For these reasons I believe that optimal ways of playing should be known to the community. Then players can chose how to compromise their builds between what they want to play and what gets things done. I am like anyone else, this is exactly what I do: I do not want to play with conjures nor staff, so I play DF, but I make it efficient so that my personal choice does not prevent the pugs I play with to enjoy their time.

If players come to the community for advice, it is only natural that the community advises players with guidance that makes them valuable to the community.

Lord Arhan Warmark.7098:

What exactly is the argument? Present both your views to new players, and let them decide.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

We can all be kind and considerate and moderate but seriously that would be extremely boring. We are not in a care bear world. I like to take sides and to have clear cut opinions. So, in the same way that you would expect people to judge builds only from the perspective of the defendant, I think those who propose builds should only perceive the comments of those who judge bearing in mind that they speak from a different perspective. I goes both ways. Once we understand this no one gets offended, helpful builds get adopted, and we don’t get bored.

But in the end, builds that are not helpful kinda deserve to be trashed

That’s why.

It’s easy to look at me as some lone madman fighting some “crusade” against the established builds or something equally ridiculous but the simple truth is I’m not the one picking fights here. Instead, it’s just another guy who doesn’t want things around here “to be boring” and wants to argue with anything and everything that doesn’t fit his judgement on what build is and isn’t helpful.

This is why there will never be an understanding. This is why there will never be an agreement. Not because of me, but simply because they don’t want things to get too “boring.”

It does however explain why Zelhyn bothers responding to me at all. He has to know by now I’ll never accept that Berserker is the only way to play. I don’t even think it’s the most efficient way to play but rather simply does the most damage which doesn’t preclude efficiency since efficiency is entirely goal oriented and goals shift from player to player. But see now we know. He just wants to argue on the forums so things don’t get boring by his own admission.

It’s most likely why his other forum account was banned. Maybe if he’s incapable of behaving himself it might just happen again…after all “actions do have consequences” right?

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

If everybody went with some build they like that was completely inefficient then no group would ever succeed. A certain level of efficiency is required to complete content.

This is a faulty and misleading premise.

For one you vastly overuse the generic term of efficiency. Efficiency is just an adjective to describe the method in which you reach your goal. A truer way to clearly state your premise is that a maximum damage build (method) will be the most efficient (adjective) at accomplishing killing bosses the fastest (the goal).

As your own video earlier linked shows even ignoring fight mechanics a group can still complete content. While certainly not a fast solution, it is none-the-less a solution and the content does go down. In this case it’s pretty clear that they went with more defensive builds (the method) presumably because they felt it’d be fun (adjective) to kill the boss without avoiding any mechanics (the goal).

To state that alternative methods are incapable of downing content is simply, factually incorrect. Day in and day out for years people have been downing the game content without specific builds. The only thing you could state for certainty is that non-maximum DPS builds are incapable of clearing content as fast as maximum DPS builds.

I would prefer if we stayed clear of ad hominem arguments Kodiak, not only for the health of the discussion but also because such tactic often reveals a lack of proper arguments from the perpetrator.

Efficiency does not mean maximum DPS. I thought we had covered this: my DF build is not maximum DPS (not far though!) but it is very efficient. Efficiency is maximum output, considering the goal the player wants to achieve.

In the video I linked, the players are actually very efficient, considering the goal they have chosen. Yet, some of them die, and the fight takes ages. This is fine because this is exactly what this group of friends had in mind, so they had fun. But now, if a random person would join the group without prior knowledge of their goals this person would have a terrible time. So if the players from the video would come on forums and say this is how to kill Lupicus the community would be right to point out the inefficiencies in their method. This is what this discussion is all about.

I think unless the players who come on the forums clearly state their perspective then it is normal that their ideas are judged from the perspective that is common to the majority of the community. The community wants to complete content smoothly, they want to feel potent, they want to achieve more. I find it quite normal that they dislike advice that gets content completed less smoothly, advice that makes players less potent, and that ultimately prevents the community from enjoying the game as much. It is a matter of common sense, and common good

_
Now a few clarifications:

Kodiak.3281:

I’ll never accept that Berserker is the only way to play.

You are right, it is not. It is the most efficient though. You are free to chose how efficient you want to be, and people are free to enjoy playing with you or not.

Kodiak.3281:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

If everybody went with some build they like that was completely inefficient then no group would ever succeed. A certain level of efficiency is required to complete content.

This is a faulty and misleading premise.

To state that alternative methods are incapable of downing content is simply, factually incorrect.

Indeed, and that is why I am not making such statement. My statement is that a certain level of efficiency is required to complete the content, a certain level is required to complete it smoothly enough for your team to have a good time in this social game. You deem this point faulty but you have failed to explain why. And seriously good luck explaining: you would have to argue that making purely bad decisions gets the content completed

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Indeed, and that is why I am not making such statement. My statement is that a certain level of efficiency is required to complete the content, a certain level is required to complete it smoothly enough for your team to have a good time in this social game. You deem this point faulty but you have failed to explain why. And seriously good luck explaining: you would have to argue that making purely bad decisions gets the content completed

This is what you say:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

If everybody went with some build they like that was completely inefficient then no group would ever succeed.

Are now you saying that you can do the content regardless of build? I mean you state very clearly that the the guys who downed Lupicus in the video you linked did so very inefficiently:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

So if the players from the video would come on forums and say this is how to kill Lupicus the community would be right to point out the inefficiencies in their method.

Yet clearly their method worked to down the content. Did they down it very fast? No. Were their builds inefficient by your standards? Yes. Yet did they succeed? Yes. So the argument that people playing inefficient builds of their choosing would be incapable of downing content is factually incorrect.

Now if you are then changing your argument, because that last argument was wrong, and you’re now saying players need a certain level of skill and knowledge to beat the content then we can agree on that. Because ultimately knowing the encounters, knowing what to expect and knowing how to counter it is how you beat that content. So really it’s the player skill that matters and not build.

Builds are ultimately just tools and methods you use to overcome content. Certain builds allow you to down content faster than other builds. Other builds allow you to do the same content slower but more safely. Ultimately it’s up to the player to determine what tool and method works best for them. Do they want to do Berserker gear and go with Berserker groups and complete content faster or do they want to choose a safer method with more defensive gear/build and not worry about how long it takes?

So again we see that Berserker is not the most efficient build, because the term “efficiency” is wholly dependent on the user’s goals.

Berzerker gear is the most efficient gear when it comes to completing the content smoothly, which is what the community desires.

The Lupicus kill I linked was not smooth at all, and therefore not efficient by community standards.

But the Lupicus kill was done efficiently considering the restrictions that the players had placed upon themselves. Indeed, a certain level of efficiency is required to complete content. In this clip, not much skill was involved.

The discussion is about your perception of what you call “hate” towards anything that does not use berzerker gear. Ultimately it all comes down to the idea that no one likes to play alongside people who are not contributing much to the completion of the content. So, again, it is natural that the community dislikes advice that leads to inefficiency.

I remember that you took great pride from someone telling you that you are efficient at might stacking Kodiak, you even linked a screenshot on this forum. Therefore you appreciate efficiency too, and you like that your contribution is appreciated. The community is no different.

So now you’re going to use a new word: “Smooth.”

However gear and build has nothing to do with how “smooth” a run goes as you pointed out. The biggest factor we deduced from your own words is that player skill and knowledge of the encounters has everything to do with a run being “smooth.”

The Lupicus video you linked is a great example of this. Right off the bat with the title of the video you can see them say no evades or blocks, because they know as part of the normal way you tackle this encounter you would need to block and/or evade. So they have that knowledge and instead in defiance of that knowledge, for whatever reasons that are their own, they choose to ignore it and do the encounter and not do what they know they should be doing for that encounter. Thus because they are ignoring the encounter mechanics, their run is not smooth. This has nothing to do with their builds and nothing to do with their gear but rather their gear and builds are simply tools they adjusted to be able to beat the encounter while ignoring critical parts of the encounter mechanics.

You also bring up a very good point that not much skill was involved. This means you can brute force your way through encounter mechanics without having to counter then by having a stronger defensive build. This means for the more casual player who has no self delusions that being skilled in PvE (especially PvE this basic) actually means anything by going with a more defensive build they can simply brute force their way through content, albeit a little slower.

The discussion is about understanding there’s are thousands of people who play this game and a lot of us have different reasons and desires and goals within the game. Not everyone is obsessed with being the best of the best of the best at PvE in a game that’s widely renown for having bad PvE. A lot of us just want the rewards from PvE and that’s it. Nothing more, nothing else. Out of those some people want to go faster than others (with Berserker groups) and other people don’t really care at the pace in which it goes so long as it gets done. Using terms like “no one” or even words like “majority” or “the community” can’t rightfully be used because there’s no data to back those terms up.

That entire picture was a joke because that entire thread was a joke on how the only way a person could be a good elementalist was if they stacked might. There’s that language barrier again and not understanding.

Get a room already.

Seriously though continue this in PMs.

Gokil.2543:

Get a room already.

Seriously though continue this in PMs.

Shut up, what am I going to do with all this popcorn if that happens?, geez.

BTW d/f ftw, love the playstyle.

Kodiak, you claim that one cannot speak for the majority of the community, yet you complain that the majority of the community “hates” suboptimal builds.

The fact that no other builds have renowned guides apart from those that are supported by theorycrafters likes Keyz and me clearly shows the tastes of the majority of the community: we like efficiency. Because efficiency gets you more rewards for your effort. Who wouldn’t like that?

You posted a build some time ago called the condimentalist. To this day I see no support for your proposition. Why? Because it did not help people. If people had tried it and found that it helps them achieve more then they would speak out, they would spread the love.

Anything that helps the community achieve more gets supported. Anything that does not work well towards this goal gets trashed. Like I said before, this is for the good of the community, it makes sense. And this is not my doing: it is like natural selection, you can’t fight it.

Now Kodiak, give me a reason why we should fight against natural selection. If ever you have any reasons why a build that does not help the community should get support, then speak out clearly. That would really give you a point. Otherwise the case is closed

Yet what does any of that have to do with what I said? Nothing you said refutes or disputes the idea that builds are neither efficient or inefficient but rather tools for players to use. The efficiency of which is entirely based on the goals of those players and what those players want to accomplish. So long as the player is able to overcome the encounter mechanics, either through brute force defenses or through avoiding those mechanics, one build is fundamentally not better than another. A build can be faster, or slower, or lazier, or require more or less skill but so long as the players can overcome those mechanics they can down the content regardless of their choice.

I mean maybe instead of creating a strawman and talking about old builds from years ago why don’t you address those points?

Also lets debunk this whole “renowned” part. How many accounts in the game have Elementalists on their account? How many of those accounts play an Elementalist as their main character? How many out of those even bother to come to these forums and don’t just get build advice and tips from their own guild/server community? Out of those, how many even know your name let alone care what you or anyone else thinks about the Elementalist? Until you got numbers all you got is assumptions. In all unlikely possibilities you could very well be a very, very vocal minority (doubtful due to the berserker meta across all classes).

Evolution is actually a great comparative topic. Sometimes one of the inherent traits of some of the Berserker players is they trash anything that isn’t like them. They do it so much certain Berserker players get their forum accounts banned and they have to buy a second account just to keep trashing other builds. They trash and trash and trash anything not like them until the other people get tired of having to justify why they playing the game a certain way. Eventually those people just kinda go away and the Berserker people go, “See we’re the best!” but really they were just the loudest.

Evolution doesn’t mean the best wins out. Evolution means those more capable of propagating win out.

And you can’t propagate unless you are helpful. You can’t be helpful unless you contribute significantly to the encounter. You can’t contribute much unless you are efficient. So helpful builds win because they are the best.

No one is going to take you seriously when you say that efficient builds have prevailed only because I post a lot on these forums. If I was so good at manipulating then not only the most divine of us would play DF but the entire community would adopt this godly build

Anyway:

If ever you have any reasons why a build that does not help the community should get support, then speak out clearly. Otherwise the case is closed

Actually that’s entirely untrue and shows a basic lack of understanding of how Natural Selection and the principles of evolution work. It’s all about inheritable traits and traits that will help propagation. In this particular case it’s the people who are playing Max DPS builds who have the trait of arguing against and trashing any other build not like theirs. This helps them propagate because people who make alternative builds lack this trait and don’t want to keep arguing or fighting every time they post a build and eventually give up.

Why these people have this trait is unknown. Maybe they’re insecure their build isn’t as great as they think and they have to put down anything else? Maybe they truly think they are doing the community a service by removing anything they deem unworthy? Maybe they just don’t want things to get boring and look for any reason to troll and fight with other people? I don’t think we’ll ever really understand the real reason why they do what they do, but with them willing to buy additional accounts after getting banned to keep trashing other builds we definitely know they are dedicated to the act.

I’ll also say you are again wrong about the implication that you need a maximum DPS to contribute significantly to an encounter. If everyone in a group is running a hybrid DPS/Defense build (bit of DPS, bit of self defense) then everyone should be contributing equally. This again comes back to the point from my last few posts that it’s competent players who know encounter mechanics that leads to successful fights and not the builds. Builds are merely the tools in which players use to overcome those encounters at the pace in which they care to.

Kodiak.3281:

Actually that’s entirely untrue and shows a basic lack of understanding of how Natural Selection and the principles of evolution work. It’s all about inheritable traits and traits that will help propagation. In this particular case it’s the people who are playing Max DPS builds who have the trait of arguing against and trashing any other build not like theirs. This helps them propagate because people who make alternative builds lack this trait and don’t want to keep arguing or fighting every time they post a build and eventually give up.

Interesting theory. But I embody the perfect counter example. DF is not max DPS, yet it still prevails. I had to fight my way against a lot of people who trashed the build (Anierna <3), but I won those arguments because the build has many comparative advantages and it has been shown to achieve a lot. DF survives because it helps people. Your condimentalist build died because it did not help people. Natural selection works perfectly fine here.

Kodiak.3281:

with them willing to buy additional accounts after getting banned to keep trashing other builds we definitely know they are dedicated to the act.

Good luck trying to discredit me by exposing the ban of my main account, I wear this ban with pride! I got it from defending the community in the Fractured patch. As for “trashing other builds”, here is what the introduction of my guide says: “it is important to understand that each build is specific to its owner. We all have different play-styles, different team mates, and we face varying challenges according to the content we choose to tackle. So never follow a guide like a dredge: be conscious of what kind of player you are and of what you want to achieve.” Sounds like trashing others to you?

Kodiak.3281:

Builds are merely the tools in which players use to overcome those encounters at the pace in which they care to.

Some tools are better than others. You don’t see farmers plowing the fields with a cart and horses anymore do you? We have evolved. And this progress is only possible because we trash bad ideas.

Still waiting for your reasons why a build that does not help the community should get support

Actually you embody the perfect example of the people who keep shouting the loudest and the longest eventually driving others away. Is D/F really a superior build or did you simply argue for the longest until the other side gave up?

Yes you do say that, but you also trash talk and discredit anything and everything you remotely don’t like. This is your fundamental problem, you’re basically a walking/talking contradiction. You argue with people like me that only the builds you deem are the most efficient can succeed and when you’re called out on it and proven wrong you flip flop and say that people should play what they’re most comfortable with. If someone says they aren’t comfortable with a full Berserker build because they dislike it you don’t advise them to stop being Berserker, you tell them they should keep going and “improve” until they like it. You have two conflicting views, which do you really feel?

Tools are neither good nor bad. It’s all about goal and what you want to accomplish. You wouldn’t use a hammer to screw in a screw nor would you use a screwdriver to hammer in a nail. Now you may be thinking, “Aha! Gotchya! You’d use the best tool for the job!” except that’s surface view of the issue and doesn’t pay enough attention to the parts at hand. For example, continuing the analogy, what kind of screw? Philips? Flat head? Star? Maybe one of those proprietary screws? See in this analogy the screw is the goal and the screwdriver is the method to reach that goal. Not everyone’s goals (or screws) are the same and the method (screwdriver) to reach that goal will be the same either.

Quite frankly I question you even know what is and isn’t helpful to the community when you don’t even have any data or facts about it. I asked you details, you don’t seem to know. I’m all ready to hear the facts and data.

1) Of course DF is superior

2) There is no contradiction. Only builds that are helpful will gain support by the community. People are clever and rational though, so they will make their own decisions and I think that is completely natural. My self-proclaimed job is only to make sure that they are conscious of their choices.

3) Have you ever tried to screw a screw without a screwdriver? You can use a coin, a knife, your nails … It’s terrible. I just want to make sure that people have screwdrivers, because that’s the best tool for the job. And then it just happens that we all like rewards, so in a way we all have the same goal.

4) I have tons of hints, but I am only human I think that if the community had a build that was at least as helpful as the builds that Keyz, Haviz, and I support (as well as Neko, and others), then we would have heard about it.

So your crusade against the community has evolved into a personal struggle against me Kodiak? You can argue all you want, but in the end of the day it is the community – not me – who decides what build they want to use, what build they think is helpful, and what build they support. Good luck trying to convince the community that they are wrong.

You think that debates are won by who argues for the longest. I think I have made my points clear throughout this very long discussion, so I will stop right here. Carry on arguing as you wish, you seem to nurture some hatred against me, but I do not think you can add anything to the discussion. If anyone is not convinced by my arguments then they will speak out.