Guild Wars 2

Someone reminds me of the Dredge: blinded by their tunneled ideal and fueled it with indiscriminate animosity.

I can’t believe this guy is still trashtalking you Zelyhn. Wtf…

Have you tried to screw with the wrong kind of screwdriver? It strips the screw and ruins it. You want to use the right tool for the right job. That means if it isn’t someone’s goal to be #1 maximum DPS efficiency extreme extraordinaire and they just want a build you can get through dungeons with recommending a Berserker build is bad advice. Berserker groups are separate for a reason and that’s simply because not everyone plays that way and to pretend otherwise is just silly.

You’ll never see more than hints out of me until this place turns into an environment where ideas aren’t judged and trashed. I don’t expect wide spread adoption, wide spread approval, a forum sticky or hell even a place on meta battle but rather simple and common courtesy not to get bashed when trying to help.

You and other seem to think that this is personal. It’s not. I am not the one finding your posts and replying to them but rather you seem to make an ongoing habit of replying to my posts and turning them into endless debates. Nothing either us can say will ever convince each other that we’re right or wrong. Why you continue to find my posts, single them out and reply is beyond me when you know what the results will be. If this is what you want, then so be it, but remember you’re the one who’s going to reply each time not me.

I don’t think debates are ever won if one side refuses to even listen to the other. You’re not walking away from this with a greater understanding of my viewpoint but rather you’re simply tired of trying to convince me with arguments that aren’t going to convince me even thought you feel they should. You seem to spend a lot of time trying to convince someone you think adds nothing to the discussion. Hopefully in the future you correct this and just go about your business and stop replying to me in the first place. If not, see you next thread

You consistently offer terrible advice to newer players and are steering them in a poor direction. You also trashtalk people that use berserker gear and builds with traits that are geared in an offensive direction along with anything that’s more efficient than what you like to use, calling people mindless drones and whatnot.

The people replying to you don’t take you seriously because you’re disrespectful and really close-minded, refusing to admit that someone else’s advice is better.

Why should anyone care about giving what you say a chance after you use pejoratives to try to 1-up yourself over the people you disagree with?

Yet see I’m not the one trash talking people. I’m not the one saying that Berserker players are bad players. I’m not the one seeking them out and telling them the way they are playing is wrong. Quite the contrary, I firmly believe there’s a play style for everyone based on the goals they have for this game and some will be Berserker and others will be more defensive. It’s only in the context in which those players believe their way is the only advice worth giving that I state they are wrong.

I’m not sure if you know what closed minded means, but closed minded means you are unwelcome to new ideas and different ways of looking at things. Remind me which one of us is telling people there’s only one efficient way to play Elementalist? It isn’t me.

That’s a great question. Why do these people care what I have to say and constantly reply to me? I mean surely if my advice is so terrible and wrong no one would take it seriously, right? You’d think that kind of advice would just be ignored.

I can look through your post history and find numerous occurrences where you refer to berserker-using players as mindless drones who lack creativity etc. Those are clearly pejoratives, and unless you go back and edit out and delete your posts then it’s clear as day that you’re lying.

We aren’t saying there’s only one efficient way to play elementalist we’re saying there’s tons of ways that you can, but yours sure as hell is not. Big difference. We’re not close-minded.

As for your last statements… new players don’t know better. They will likely listen to anyone who gives them advice and speaks to them in a way that makes them seem like they are knowledgeable in the subject.

This is why people respond to you. They dislike seeing newer players fed bad information, such as taking 4 trait points in water for condi removal in PvE when they could simply swap their heal to ether renewal as an example.

Or Focus earth 4, or Dagger water 5, or Staff water 5, one on every option

You can find a handful of occurrences, at best, to which I could easily counter by going through your own history and see there are probably just as many occurrences of you trashing another player myself included. You’re a pot calling the kettle black.

The problem with your supposition stating that my way of playing the Elementalist is bad is you have yet to provide a superior solution to the way I play merely an alternative. Like your suggestion about Ether Renewal isn’t bad, but you stop short of also looking at the full effects of having 4 in Water which in addition to Cleansing Wave Major trait but also Healing Ripple (minor) as well as the additional stat boosts that come with specing 4 into water (100 more vitality and healing). It also doesn’t address the loss of Arcane Brilliance and that potential blast finisher. So yes, you could swap out Arcane Brilliance for Ether Renewal, but if you’re only clearing the occasional heavy condition focus that the build in skills won’t cover, sometimes all you need is a simple solution that has other benefits as well.

Now this could be because you, as a player, are sufficiently good enough at playing the Elementalist that all of those defensive tools are not needed for you to be effective. Therefore in your mind all of those “advantages” are wasted/wasteful and not useful. However the people looking for advice aren’t always at that stage and offering middle ground while they work up to that level of skill, such as a hybrid build, will ultimately end up working better for them.

For people who claim there are a lot of different ways to play the Elementalist, all your builds are pretty much identical beyond small variances in weapon. Just doesn’t add up to me.

There’s a lot of info out there already on the Berserker play style and meta. I don’t see why it’s such a foreign concept to people that sometimes people are going to be looking for something different. If you wanna pretend that you’re doing everyone a favor by all means carry on but if you people are going to trash me, trash my advice or otherwise then prepare to have a discussion on it. However lets be very clear: You’re the one making this decision, not me.

I like where this thread is going.

sorrychief.2563:

I like where this thread is going.

Oh we’ve been there before
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Staff-healer-or-dps/first#post2970810
(Yes I am quoting a quote, somehow the original post “disappeared”, but gw2 rememebers )

It’s just going to last until we all get too tired to waste our time. He who argues not to prove himself right but only to get the last word will outlast our patience. The community will not be better off, but he says himself that he does not care.

We’ve been here a lot because Zelyhn is, largely, angry I was the first person to call him out on DPS and whether or not you could prove one spec was doing more DPS than another. Back then there was no way to measure DPS other than spreadsheets which I said were largely irrelevant because encounter mechanics can lead to lower DPS. Ironically he later went on to use this argument to argue the efficiency of D/F and why it should be used even though Staff DPS has been proven to do more DPS if you’re capable of just standing there to do DPS (and that’s largely an impractical occurrence on many game encounters).

Most people who read that understand the concept of hyperbole and the way you exaggerate a scenario to make a point. Unfortunately the language barrier has lead Zelyhn to think I mean these things literally so then later he comes back and takes some hyperbolic statement I made to show a point and use it as if it’s some kitten ing evidence against me I honestly don’t know anyone who would realistically go into a dungeon without traits or with white gear on but somehow he seems to think that’s an actual scenario that can actually happen and people would take it as advice to do that!

I mean hey, I’m by no means perfect, I’ve done some not so community acceptable things in my day (not so much anymore) but all that nonsense has lead to Zelyhn following me around replying to my posts. Best I’ve been able to figure it out it’s due to a misguided sense of doing the community a favor or something I don’t honestly try to understand it.

Kodiak.3281:

I’ve done some not so community acceptable things in my day (not so much anymore)

t-t-t-top kek

Kodiak.3281:

no way to measure DPS other than spreadsheets which I said were largely irrelevant because encounter mechanics can lead to lower DPS.

Lower DPS for everybody. If something affects all builds in the same way then we can often disregard it in order to compare them.

Kodiak.3281:

Most people who read that understand the concept of hyperbole and the way you exaggerate a scenario to make a point. Unfortunately the language barrier has lead Zelyhn to think I mean these things literally so then later he comes back and takes some hyperbolic statement I made to show a point and use it as if it’s some kitten ing evidence against me

Well

As for your “efficient PvE build” honestly I don’t see the point in min-maxing the game as all this. If I join a group and just look like I’m busy no one will know the difference. I have joined groups as S/D on my Condition spec (30/0/30/10/0) and no one was any the wiser because I was kicking out huge Might stacks and perma Fury to the group (with 0 Boon duration…that new 30 point Fire trait is nutty) but most importantly I looked busy. Without said damage meters perception of how the class performs (as in collectively everyone believes we are high/med/low DPS) trumps actual performance (whether or not we are actually high/med/low DPS) every day of the week.

(source)

If I could wave my arms around excitedly with spell effects in hand while running around avoiding AOE’s no one would be any the wiser that I’m doing no damage

(source)

Hyerboles … yes… But I guess that when hyperboles start to define the advice that you give to players then they are not so hyperbolic anymore.

It is very simple: I care about how the players around me enjoy their gaming experience, so that I can have more fun with my friends, or even make new friends. I don’t think that your advice to just look busy helps to make a lot of friends!

This- this is beautiful!

Yeah we have been through some dark times.

But it is really intriguing though, because Kodiak had some really good perspectives once upon a time:

I think we can all agree that going 30/30/0/10/0 in Zerker/Zerker gear is probably the most optimal damage possible. Bringing up the numbers to show that doesn’t negate the reality of game play where you won’t be running full tilt DPS like that. The matter has never been to argue what is the best possible DPS but rather what gives you the most amount of DPS with the bare minimum amount of survivability required and yet is still somewhat user friendly to play.

Reading this, you would think he would be a proud supporter of the one and only true godly build: DF. But… then a week after that post he came up with this build. Interestingly the videos showcasing the performance of the build have since then “disappeared”, just like the comment I linked a few messages ago

I wish Kodiak would go back to his original views on optimising builds. I do not know what troubled his mind away from such good and helpful approach. Since he discussed with me he started hating everything I support, regardless of the consistency between my views and his original perspective. I believe that such fanatic energy could be put to better use. The community is always in need of committed helpful people.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

You think that debates are won by who argues for the longest. I think I have made my points clear throughout this very long discussion, so I will stop right here.

Apparently not!

Again you’re completely confusing hyperbole with advice. I never once actually advocate that people should actually run around waving their arms (how would you even wave your arms around without doing an action???), only that if it were done no one would be able to tell the difference. My stance continues to this day: I simply don’t see a point in min-maxing in a game like this where honestly the PvE is basic enough that literally any build will work.

I haven’t deleted any comments. Feel free to spend more time browsing through my post history. Remind me again which one of us is supposed to be obsessed about the other? It’s kind of sad when you think of the amount of time invested at this stage. Time that was spent trying to dig up and dredge up old posts and old quotes from over a year ago to attack me rather than my arguments. Arguments that many posts later have yet to be answered or addressed. What do they call that again? I coulda swore I heard it somewhere…

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

I would prefer if we stayed clear of ad hominem arguments Kodiak, not only for the health of the discussion but also because such tactic often reveals a lack of proper arguments from the perpetrator.

Oh yea.

Kodiak.3281:

My stance continues to this day: I simply don’t see a point in min-maxing in a game like this where honestly the PvE is basic enough that literally any build will work.

Kodiak, we all got that point of yours. The entire community can’t avoid you spamming it everywhere. Even the devs may know about it. I got your point two years ago.

The fact that you do not see the point in optimising builds and strategies does not mean that you should prevent those who want to achieve more to access this knowledge. Your crusade against people who give advice of efficiency is detrimental to the common good.

That fact that you do not see the point in optimising builds and strategies is irrelevant on these forums as people who come here are looking for advice in order to achieve more. It is an opinion that helps no one, you are only expressing your personal feelings towards this game and these feelings concern you only. It does not make any sense to come on forums just to tell people to go for whatever they want: they can come up with that on their own, and we all have our freedom of choice so indeed we do what ever we want anyway – with or without your advice!

The fact that you do not see the point in optimising builds and strategies is false. You are lying – intentionally or not. You do see the point in achieving more. Everyone does. I am sure of this because no man would possibly be ok with completing any part of the content in 15 hours, nor 10, nor 5. We are humans, we like to have fun, and I do not believe Kodiak that you would have fun completing any content in an absurd amount of time or with too much misfortune. I know what you usually reply to this sensible argument of mine: “completing content in 15 hours is unrealistic, it never happens”. You are right, it does not happen. It does not happen because all players like to play with a certain level of efficiency: the level of efficiency required in order to complete the content within a reasonable amount of time. Now that we have explained why a certain level of min-maxing is desired by all players including you, your point that min-maxing is not necessary appears completely wrong, as is often the case when you deal in absolutes. People like to know how to achieve more. Optimising builds and strategies helps them to fulfill this desire, just like it helps you to enjoy the game the way you want to enjoy it.

On this forum people give advice that helps others to reach their goals and that enables them to be more potent. This advice can be followed or not, everybody makes their own choice. But there is no reason why we should stop giving advice that helps people. There is not reason why we should not expose contradicting views when some advice could be improved. Any build can work, but there is no reason why we shouldn’t try to find builds and tactics that work better, even if we don’t need to.

Zelyhn vs Kodiak

It’s all I seem to see these days lol.

Thaddeus.4891:

Zelyhn vs Kodiak

It’s all I seem to see these days lol.

In fact, it’s more Kodiak vs Kodiak:

Kodiak.3281:

I simply don’t see a point in min-maxing

Kodiak.3281:

The matter is what gives you the most amount of DPS with the bare minimum amount of survivability required

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

In fact, it’s more Kodiak vs Kodiak:

Well more like Kodiak vs One sentence Kodiak said year(s) ago taken out of context by someone who spends too much time reading Kodiak’s past posts looking for dirt because they don’t have an answer to his points.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

The fact that you do not see the point in optimising builds and strategies does not mean that you should prevent those who want to achieve more to access this knowledge. Your crusade against people who give advice of efficiency is detrimental to the common good.

And I don’t. For example look at Raven.1793’s thread. I don’t advocate Raven should stop, I advocate that she should find a group that moves at the pace and tool set she wants to play with.

Where we run into problems is threads like Margrave.2071’s thread where he’s expressing having trouble with the Berserker play style. While the advice of learning the encounters more and doubling down to stick it out is certainly valid advice but so is a more defensive route as well. For some users, such as Margrave.2071, this is the right advice as they rely on different builds to learn the content and gradually make their way back to a more offensive role or maybe not.

Man you don’t know the life I’ve lived or the dungeon groups I’ve ran. That said, none has ever taken more than a few hours. I’ve had to drag groups through dungeons and I’ve felt like I was being dragged through before. I didn’t nor don’t really mind either scenario. As was brought up earlier the build is just a tool for the player and there is the right tool for each player. Giving someone who doesn’t know encounters/mechanics the most “optimally efficient” build is just bad advice because they won’t be able to use it optimally. Some people are going to be happy it took them only 5 or 8 minutes to speed run a dungeon. Others will be happy if they finish up in 30 minutes or 60 minutes. Telling everyone they can only be happy when they reach the 8 minute speed run stage is patently false.

You can certainly quibble about advice I give, such as more defensive gear with offensive build instead of using offensive gear with a defensive build but the fact is it’s not a one size fits all solution for everyone. Each player is different and each player is looking for different things with their goals and what they want out of the game and tailoring your advice to the individual is always going to net the best results. Someone who clearly states they don’t want to play a maximum DPS berserker build and then recommending that is just absurd and that happens a lot.

I’ve said it before and I said it again. I don’t have any problems with Berserker, the meta or the advice others give so long as it’s not completely tone deaf to what they want. It’s 100% about how certain players around here want to bash on any advice that isn’t what they are giving. If they don’t think it’s optimal or efficient, they bash on it. What those people need to understand is there’s a lot of people who have a lot of different goals and simply being able to complete the content at a reasonable pace without having to play perfectly is a very real goal people share. Not everyone is about performance and a lot of us simply want the reward at the end.

http://th01.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2013/265/0/2/the_general_forums_by_vixen11-d6nhf2m.jpg

Poster 1 and poster 7 personified.

Lost it at Cherry picked quotes to explain why you are wrong about this thing.

Bravo!

Kodiak.3281:

I’ve said it before and I said it again. I don’t have any problems with Berserker, the meta or the advice others give so long as it’s not completely tone deaf to what they want. It’s 100% about how certain players around here want to bash on any advice that isn’t what they are giving. If they don’t think it’s optimal or efficient, they bash on it.

And I have agreed with you that advising berserker when the player clearly states his desires to use alternative gear is nonsensical. That being said it is still important to let all players know about the ways they could make their builds more efficient, just so that they know what direction to take when they want to improve.

We all agree that some players would perform better defensive gear. But we also all agree that defensive gear is not the most optimal, and this is not just about speed of completion. Therefore feel free to advise defensive gear Kodiak, although I do not think anybody actually even needs such advice: anyone can come up with that by themselves. And in return, accept that people explain why such advice is less optimal. This way all points of views are exposed. Then the players being advised can make educated decisions.

But I must admit that I still do not understand why someone who does not care about achieving more would come here to spread his views. It’s a real paradox. Helping players would mean that you want them to achieve more, but you don’t. And refusing to achieve more would imply that you do not care about helping others. Still you are here, productively telling people not to care. I am confused.

Or maybe you are confused. As the quotes from our past discussions show, you have changed you points of views countless times. I do not know

Gokil.2543:

http://th01.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2013/265/0/2/the_general_forums_by_vixen11-d6nhf2m.jpg

Poster 1 and poster 7 personified.

That thing’s missing a few posters. Posters16-20 should just be sitting there with popcorn

Mind sharing the popcorn, i ran out

Depends what your definition of achieving more is. For you Zelyhn, it’s to do it as fast and as efficiently as possible. That’s your goal in the game. It’s not everyone’s goal, and what you want to achieve in the game can and is probably very different than what other people want to achieve. You either don’t want to see this, or you simply think your view is the only one that truly matters.

Not everyone can play the same way, we all have different skill sets as individual people do. Some people can stack might, kite, etc… and there are many people who can’t. So, presenting a one-size fits all “optimal build” for everyone as the only one that people should aspire too, doesn’t take into account that we are all special little snowflakes.

Giving people advice on different builds which take that into account is in fact not encouraging them to achieve less or not to care, it’s helping them find a build that helps them achieve more based on what their actual capabilities are.

Some people are good at math, some people are good at english. Your reaction times are probably ten times better than mine.

It’s really admirable that you think everyone with the build you love to play can achieve more and play at your level if they just learn that build. But the reality is, is that many many people can’t or won’t. And if you can’t “achieve more” with the build that all the elite eles in the game say you should be able to with, then it can be very disheartening and possibly drive people from the game.

My brother’s were really good at football… It came naturally to them. I can’t play sports to save my life. You remind me of my parents disappointment when I tried and tried to emulate them, and couldn’t achieve more in sports.

Kodiak does care about other players, as do you. To say he doesn’t care is a really really distorted view that I can’t even begin to understand. The difference is, he’s the kind of coach that helps you find the tools that will work best for you, whereas, you are the kind of coach that seems to say “The only way you can be on my team is if you learn to play the way I do.”

Kodiak himself said that he does not care, multiple times.

As for the view you are projecting on me, it is not completely accurate. It is true that I like efficiency, but it is not true that my only focus is on speed of completion. Yes I am part of prominent speed clearing guild, and to that extent I have worked on improving speed clearing builds (Staff, SFLH). But I am also a player like any other, I like to do my own thing, and this is why I came up with the DF build. The build I like to play most is DF, I can bear playing staff, but I hate scepter. Yet I support all three builds, because they are the most efficient for their respective purposes. And efficient does not mean speed, although it is a good indicator.

I do not wish for everyone to follow these builds. I simply provide the information. I could play a build for max completion speed (staff), but I choose to play a build for maximum personal fun (DF, the one and only godly build). I know that my build does not yield the highest DPS possible, yet I choose to play it because its diversity and dynamism make me feel potent. I believe that everyone make choices just like I do. But to choose carefully people need to have information.

I think we really need to dispel some misconceptions about efficiency. If I deem something more efficient than some others, for a given goal, it means that what I support can achieve more, it means that you can get more output for your input. But this presupposes that you give the right input. I write in my guides that players should be conscious about who they are what they want to achieve. My belief is that players should be aware of their skill level (mine is not that high) so that they know the quality of their input and can therefore chose what build to use for best results. I firmly believe in this and I respect anyone who makes such choices. Of course I respect even more those who pick builds that empower their team, but I cannot dream for everybody to be perfectly altruistic. That being said it is an objective fact that some builds are more efficient (get more output for the right input) than others, considering the core of the common desires of the community: getting rewards. But it is also true that the higher the efficiency the more commitment it requires from the players and their team. I am perfectly fine with people choosing the level of commitment they want to enjoy their gaming experience, and consequently I am perfectly fine with people not choosing the most efficient builds – just like I do. And as I am perfectly fine with anyone’s decision, I expect people to be perfectly fine with my explaining of how builds are efficient or not. Is this not fair? If Kodiak had read just the introduction of my guide then this conversation would have been over two years ago.

I have ran out of popcorn too. It’s all going in circles. I think Kodiak dose not have a problem with the meta, nor with me, nor with how we explain the efficiency of builds, but he has a problem with the game itself. This is why this debate may never end. Kodiak needs to understand that I do not mind that he chooses a level of commitment that is best matched by alternative builds. He needs to accept that his choices are not the most efficient, and that this does not necessarily mean that he is “bad” or anything like this.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

We all agree that some players would perform better defensive gear. But we also all agree that defensive gear is not the most optimal, and this is not just about speed of completion. Therefore feel free to advise defensive gear Kodiak, although I do not think anybody actually even needs such advice: anyone can come up with that by themselves. And in return, accept that people explain why such advice is less optimal. This way all points of views are exposed. Then the players being advised can make educated decisions.

Stage 1 Complete: You admit different gear/builds will help people succeed where they are not able to and that for some players a defensive build (gear or spec) is right for them. We also accept that builds are merely tools and generally speaking so long as the player behind the build has a reasonable level of proficiency in understanding encounter mechanics (dodge this, avoid that, stack there, etc) that they can successfully complete the content.

Stage 2: Now we need to take this principle and expand upon it. Different people also have different goals. Some people want to do dungeons the fastest. Some people just don’t want to think about it and just want an easy trip through a dungeon. Some people don’t care how it’s done and just want the reward.

These different goals for each person will have more optimal and efficient routes to those goals. Telling a player who is not in full Berserker gear that he isn’t playing optimally when all he cares about is getting the dungeon done is incorrect. So long as he gets the dungeon done then any route used to achieve that is the optimal one because his goal was completed. A person who wants a very easy time through dungeons and doesn’t want to think about much recommending Berserker is awful advice because it’s a playstyle and build that requires a degree of concentration to notice mechanic cues and when to do what skill and ability.

In essence, you need to find a better language to express your ideas. Using the terms “optimal” and “efficient” are not synonyms to “fastest” but you often use these interchangeably. This is completely misleading and non-educational because you are using the wrong terminology to describe what it is you are recommending. You are recommending they use a Berserker build because it will be the most efficient build in order to complete the content the fastest. A perfectly valid view, when explained fully, and entirely misleading when you simply state “Berserker builds are the most efficient builds.”

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

But I must admit that I still do not understand why someone who does not care about achieving more would come here to spread his views. It’s a real paradox. Helping players would mean that you want them to achieve more, but you don’t. And refusing to achieve more would imply that you do not care about helping others. Still you are here, productively telling people not to care. I am confused.

Or maybe you are confused. As the quotes from our past discussions show, you have changed you points of views countless times. I do not know

I think this is probably another core issue here. You view advice as spreading ideas as if we’re gathering followers and acolytes to spread the gospel. It’s not. I come here to provide an alternative viewpoint to the oft echo’d Berserker meta. Rather than simply let the advice stand where it is and let the person who needs help make their own decisions based on the merits of the arguments presented a number of individuals want to shout down anything they judge and deem bad or unworthy. I am not okay with this as we’ve discussed.

A lot of people around here make some incredible claims that are just inaccurate. How many times have you alluded to or flat out made the argument that unless you play “efficiently” or “optimally” (which really you mean on a speed run build) that no dungeons would ever get done? These kinds of ridiculous assertions are completely false and I’m here to let people know the world won’t end or you’ll still complete content if you play more defensively (either gear or spec) and they really shouldn’t worry about it.

You’re confusing my lack of concern over playing what you feel is the right build in order to complete game content as total apathy which is a poor conclusion.

Also, I love this game. I always come back to it in between other distractions. I don’t always like these forums because there’s too many people who don’t want things to be “boring” and want to argue all the time and sometimes I take a break from them.

This argument will never end because you and others always want to misrepresent the scenario at hand. As mentioned before, throwing around words like “optimal” and “efficient” simply are too generic and only half the story. There’s also zero reason to run around judging or commenting on other people’s builds unless they ask for it. You do this, as you’ve admitted, out of some misguided sense of duty but the truth of the matter is you don’t have to at all. You could just as easily make your point by making your own post and saying that the build you talk about is the most “optimally” “efficient” at clearing content the fastest and if they are looking for that they should use your build.

You know, actually let them decide rather than decide for them what is and isn’t good by what you think? If not well see you next thread!

Are you sure it’s necessary to type essay-length replies to state your points?

Ugh. I no longer have the motivation to read the debate.

Besides, we have already answered all of the “points” he keeps making…

If I was to correct everything he misinterprets then I would have to give birth to yet an other wall of text, but I really don’t see the point since he makes no new points.

But heh, anyway:
_

Kodiak.3281:

A lot of people around here make some incredible claims that are just inaccurate. How many times have you alluded to or flat out made the argument that unless you play “efficiently” or “optimally” (which really you mean on a speed run build) that no dungeons would ever get done?

No one ever made such claim, nor ever alluded to it.
My statement is that if players make only bad decisions then they will fail at completing the content, let alone completing it comfortably. Therefore a certain level of efficiency is required to complete the content.
You twisted my statement, even though we solved that discussion long ago. Very constructive Kodiak.
_

Berzerker builds are the most efficient. This stands regardless of whether you want to be the fastest or not.

_

As for the rest of your post Kodiak, I do not know what it addresses. If I understand correctly you simply do not want information to be passed on to players asking for help, so that they can “decide freely”.

I could be wrong, but I think freedom of decision comes only when you know all the implications of your choices, without any crusader censoring the information away from you.

And finally if we did not share information we would never discuss anything. Maybe this is what you want? But that would mean we would never ever improve as a community. I do not wish for everybody to strive to improve, but those who want to perform better should be free to do so.

Unfortunately the language barrier prevents me from using idioms, sarcasm, hyperbole and other methods of keeping things short because they are taken literally.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

If I was to correct everything he misinterprets then I would have to give birth to yet an other wall of text, but I really don’t see the point since he makes no new points.

Well, you say that, but I don’t really believe you can. Typically what you do when you don’t seem to either understand what I’m saying or don’t have an answer is drive the discussion in another direction. When all that fails you start to try to dig up past posts taken out of context or are completely dated and launch into ad hominem attacks.

Once again, efficiency is measured entirely by what your goal is. If it’s my goal to pay half attention while watching Netflix and easymode my way through game content then a defensive build/gear is going to be the most efficient route towards that goal. A Berserker build/gear would leave me dead a lot in that situation which is incredibly inefficient as things gets.

Since you seem to have trouble understanding a very simple concept (that language barrier) I will try to simplify it further. When someone asks a question, don’t respond to the other answers but rather only respond to the question being asked. Make your advice entirely exclusive to what other people are writing and give your own advice with your own arguments and explain why your route is the best route without comparing it to anything else. Think of it as you saying, “Berserker is so great because…yadayadayada” and not “Berserker is so great because <insert other advice> is so bad and awful!”

Now there’s nothing that’s going to stop you from doing that, unfortunately, but that’s how you end this. You end this. This is entirely on you. I don’t seek out your posts. I don’t critique the advice you give. For all intents and purposes if you just wouldn’t bash on what I have to say you’d probably never argue with me ever again. I know that might seem a bit “boring” but entirely up to you if you want to give up your crusade to censor anything you deem and judge bad or unhelpful.

Actually there’s plenty to discuss on all fronts but only once you accept there’s more than one route. The optimal DPS route is done and over with and has been for quite some time. Staff = S/F+LH (depending on War/group) > D/F etc. What is really left to discuss there that isn’t rehashing each other’s words over and over? But what about the most optimal lazy route? What hybrid build mixing defenses but also still capable of good offense can you come up with? Lazy people love being told what works best for their lazy game play. They don’t want to do math or spend hours tweaking gear in gw2skills to find the perfect mix of armor/hp/power/crit/crit dmg. You once critiqued my Condition build not as a bad idea but a bad implementation of that idea, what is the good implementation of that idea?

Rather than argue the same points over and over (you aren’t exactly Nelson Mandela with your arguments either) we accept people have different goals within the game and discuss various ways to help all of them?

Thank you for yet an other wall of text.

Kodiak.3281:

explain why your route is the best route without comparing it to anything else.

I am afraid this is technically impossible, by definition.

I will keep giving the information I have because I believe that the majority of the community wants to progress in this game, and I do not mind people not wanting to progress, as is your choice.

It is up to you to theorycraft all the lazy / defensive gear / condition builds that you dream of. I am convinced that these builds are not helpful to the majority of the community, and they are certainly not helpful to me or my friends, so I have no interest in developing them. But please go ahead

Oh and a little addendum.

It is funny that you picture me as the bad guy trying to force everyone into playing what I want to play (is that DF? or staff? or SFLH? I don’t even know what you mean). It is funny that you accuse me of censoring and crusading against alternative builds. It is funny that you say I do not respect that we all have different goals (even though we all want rewards heh!). This is all very funny especially because of this:

Kodiak.3281:

You once critiqued my Condition build not as a bad idea but a bad implementation of that idea

So you admit that I did not try to change your goal but instead I pointed out the inefficiencies in the build that you chose to achieve your goal.

Now I am not sure how much of a bad guy I am anymore
But surely it was worth wasting hundreds of posts over two years to read this.

You’re welcome! Happy to dole out and dish out walls of text as much as you desire and crave. Here’s another for ya!

It is actually quite possible to make such an argument but I think the real issue is not that it’s impossible to create an argument of why to use your build on the merits of the build itself. I think the issue is that the reasons to use the build are not strong enough when compared to any other viewpoint and thus the only recourse is to belittle, bash or downplay other builds in an effort to keep itself known as “the best.” This also comes back to the different viewpoints where you feel people are converts and that by giving people advice you’re “converting” them to a viewpoint where as I merely want to give the best possible advice for that individual.

Talking in vague terms like “majority” and “community” and other such terms is dangerous because you have nothing to back them up. For all you know the actual majority of people who mainly play their Elementalist couldn’t care anything of the sort. In fact a general glance at the North American LFG lists shows Berserker groups are typically in the minority over all to just regular, non-specified groups. However this can also vary by region and could be more common on the Euro servers which means community for one doesn’t reflect the community for others.

So really it’s you’re the one who doesn’t want to discuss things and you want to shut down discussion on other play styles and topics by swooping in and letting everyone know if they aren’t playing your way they are playing the wrong way? Is this what you’re saying? Not a few posts above you seemed to imply shutting down discussion was a bad thing but you seem to want to do this why is that?

I actually don’t view you as a good or bad or neutral or anything kind of guy. I don’t really know who you are or what you’re about. If anything I assume you’re trying to come from a good place where you think you are doing what you perceive is the community a service. You’ve charged yourself with the righteous task of defending the people and making sure they know the right way to play the Elementalist and protect them from advice you feel isn’t good or right. You do this because you want to be helpful and make sure people always have access to the information you feel is the right information. Unfortunately I think you stumble a bit in your crusade and misunderstand a few things which cause you to not really get what people like me are saying or make you act overzealous when approaching a topic. This is likely a result of the gaming environment you’re in where you admitted yourself your current guild leader is a bit of an elitist when it comes to things and there’s really only black and white (or “good” and “bad”) rather than the various shades of grey in between which makes these misunderstandings go even further.

The problem with your critique of my Condition build was that you provided no alternatives for the same play style. This is generally true of most of your criticisms where you simply throw out generic terms like “optimal” “inefficient” etc without providing alternatives. For example criticism for a more casual Elementalist build. I don’t see your, or anyone else’s stab at it, but rather you simply say it’s a bad implementation of the idea. Since you, as you admit, have no interest or desire to play these kinds of play styles you don’t take the time to come up with a working, testing and viable version of these builds but rather simply state people should play another way instead because it’s “optimal” or “efficient.”

As I’ve said and will keep saying…the posts are entirely on you. I’m content to leave you be. If you aren’t content to leave me be then we’ll be having this same discussion for days, weeks, and years to come

Kodiak.3281:

The problem with your critique of my Condition build was that you provided no alternatives for the same play style.

Sounds like a grudge because you didnt like the reality of his critism. If there arent any reasonable alternatives to give thats not the critics fault.

Kodiak.3281:

I think the issue is that the reasons to use the build are not strong enough when compared to any other viewpoint and thus the only recourse is to belittle, bash or downplay other builds in an effort to keep itself known as “the best.”

Really?
No. The point is that the builds I support are the most efficient for their purpose. If it was not the case then all the other theorycrafters would have pointed it out by now. These builds are the most efficient, which implies that all other builds are less efficient. So no, it is not possible to say that a build is best without comparing it to others, like I told you: by definition.

Kodiak.3281:

Talking in vague terms like “majority” and “community” and other such terms is dangerous because you have nothing to back them up.

Dulfy asked me (and Haviz) to write a guide for her website. Sorry for the arrogance, but if the community did not appreciate our work then Dulfy would have asked someone else.

Kodiak.3281:

So really it’s you’re the one who doesn’t want to discuss things and you want to shut down discussion on other play styles and topics by swooping in and letting everyone know if they aren’t playing your way they are playing the wrong way? Is this what you’re saying?

No. I want to give objective criticism on builds. Then the players can chose to use it or not.
There is no wrong way to play. Some builds are suboptimal, and it is not wrong to use them. However when your goal is to improve it is a shame to use a suboptimal build just because you do not have the knowledge of the most efficient ways.

Kodiak.3281:

you admitted yourself your current guild leader is a bit of an elitist when it comes to things and there’s really only black and white (or “good” and “bad”) rather than the various shades of grey in between which makes these misunderstandings go even further.

I never said any such thing. Please stop making up movies in your mind

Kodiak.3281:

The problem with your critique of my Condition build was that you provided no alternatives for the same play style.

I did not personally do that indeed. However, I pointed out that in the very same week you posted your build there were a few players on the forums who discussed condi damage for the ele in PvE and I helped them come up with an efficient build. So on your build thread I advised to look at their work.

_

You realise that this whole discussion comes only from the fact the you have a problem with how we go about our business on the forums? You are really the first one to complain. But your complain looks like a grudge against me really, as the quotes from our past discussions show, you just cannot bear being proven wrong.

spoj.9672:

Sounds like a grudge because you didnt like the reality of his critism. If there arent any reasonable alternatives to give thats not the critics fault.

It’s actually a reverse scenario and it’s pretty ironic because the hypocrisy in many of his replies knows no bounds.

See back in the day I made Zelyhn mad because I said there was no way he could prove one class or one build was doing more DPS than another. This was back before there were DPS meter addons and all people had was spreadsheets which are largely inferior because they don’t account for total time you’re actually able to do DPS (such as due to encounter and/or build mechanics). That culminated in my hyperbolic statement that I could “wave my arms around and look busy” and no one could prove I was more or less DPS something still to this day he seems to think is legitimate “advice” for other people.

Ever since Zelyhn has been, unfortunately, rather pugnacious when it comes to my posts. When I posted an initial stab at a Condi build I made a year or so back he tried to pick it apart nit picking every tiny detail yet provided no alternatives (a thread that got locked cause his posts got reported so many times). There was no reason for him to reply in this thread to an off the cuff remark and here we are. In another thread he “called me out” then ignored my answer 8 times as if suddenly that would change it. The list in between goes on.

Why is he choosing to do this? I don’t know. He is in your guild, maybe he can answer you why he’s won’t let his grudge go. Maybe it’s because, as he said, he doesn’t want things to get boring around here and just wants to troll me to get an argument going on? I can really only guess at this point and keep responding with my own points that seem to largely go over his head (or he simply has no response).

Such a shame too. This could be such a great forum full of great discussion going on.

Kodiak.3281:

See back in the day I made Zelyhn mad because I said there was no way he could prove one class or one build was doing more DPS than another.

I could, and I did.
Then, once proven wrong, you deflected by saying that min-maxing is pointless – even though a few posts earlier you stated that you wish to maximise the damage of your builds.

Kodiak.3281:

Ever since Zelyhn has been, unfortunately, rather pugnacious when it comes to my posts. When I posted an initial stab at a Condi build I made a year or so back he tried to pick it apart nit picking every tiny detail yet provided no alternatives

I answered that already. But anyway there were many good reasons why I was so adamant against your build, unfortunately you removed your videos since then, so I cannot show my points anymore. Believe me my points involved no nit picking, I barely scratched the surface.

In another thread he “called me out” then ignored my answer 8 times as if suddenly that would change it.

Eight times you deflected and answered off topic.

Kodiak.3281:

This could be such a great forum full of great discussion going on.

It was always a place of great discussion.
I have never had any problems with anyone here, even when our opinions were drastically opposed like with Anierna we always found a way to be constructive and we reached an agreement in the end. I even collaborated closely with Keyz, who is a prominent member of a guild considered to be the most rival of mine. This forum was always constructive, except with you.

Look at this very thread. The discussion started because the third post is a rant in caps and bold letters where you express a completely off topic grudge.

But I guess that’s yet an other occurrence of the “language barrier” problem?
I wonder, if I did not publicly say that I am French, with what kind of excuse would you come up instead of this one.

Yet other theorycrafters also don’t argue against other builds and simply let their builds and arguments stand on their own. You don’t see Neko swooping in and bashing non-meta builds. This is because he’s confident in his build advice and that the person will make up their own mind what will work the best for them.

You really seem to take the Dulfy thing as a feather in you cap and good for you! However, objectively, still doesn’t make you any more qualified to talk about “community” or “majority” in any sense of what those terms actually define and mean. You can make an assumption that you’re speaking for these things but without hard data to back up your claims it’s still all just an assumption.

The problem with your “objective” criticism is that it’s not objective. At all. Objective is just another generic term like “efficient” or “optimal” you use often and many times incorrectly. Objective viewpoint would look at not only the downsides to a build but also the merits and advantages to a build. Yet your criticism is lacking the other side of the coin and never includes the advantages to those builds. This is because you’re mostly biased towards a Berserker viewpoint and can only put your criticism in context of a Berserker build and how you view it’ll be more “efficient” or “optimal.”

This is a direct quote from you regarding your leader:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

But the best was yet to come: I was soon contacted by Haviz, co-leader of rT, and he told me that he likes the way I am thinking and that I should join his fotm80 team. For those of you who don’t know Haviz is nicknamed the Dark Lord because he is incredibly skilled, he is probably the most “toxic” player out there, and he hates mediocrity

“Toxic,” “hates mediocrity” or “elitist”…kinda all the same thing ain’kitten

You provided no alternatives in that thread on my build only personal attacks that got repeatedly removed until a Mod told you that need to find alternative ways to provide criticisms that didn’t involve personally attacking me until they had to lock the thread because you were unable to control yourself. So no, you didn’t provide any alternatives at all despite what you imagine happened.

I’m not the one finding new threads and posting replies to you bud. You can try to shift blame to me, but you’re the one initiating the discussion. I’m more than content to be corrected when someone shows me a good correction. In fact I was having a great conversation the other day with some people on my server about builds and they showed me an even better way to play a lazy build that I now use and am regearing for with even more offense and more defense. They could actually prove that and provide an actual working alternative. By comparison you seem to have nothing but generic terms used incorrectly with imagined level of significance that just doesn’t sway me in the slightest and so the discussion rages on!

Kodiak.3281:

Yet other theorycrafters also don’t argue against other builds

Everybody argues and criticises builds. You are the only one getting offended by that.

Kodiak.3281:

You can make an assumption that you’re speaking for these things but without hard data to back up your claims it’s still all just an assumption.

If we did not satisfy the needs of the community then certainly there would be a sticky here with alternative theorycrafting, but even after more than two years there is not.

Kodiak.3281:

Objective is just another generic term like “efficient” or “optimal” you use often and many times incorrectly.

Please show me an example where I use any of these terms incorrectly.

Kodiak.3281:

This is a direct quote from you regarding your leader:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

But the best was yet to come: I was soon contacted by Haviz, co-leader of rT, and he told me that he likes the way I am thinking and that I should join his fotm80 team. For those of you who don’t know Haviz is nicknamed the Dark Lord because he is incredibly skilled, he is probably the most “toxic” player out there, and he hates mediocrity

Here is a direct quote of what you interpreted:

you admitted yourself your current guild leader is a bit of an elitist when it comes to things and there’s really only black and white (or “good” and “bad”) rather than the various shades of grey in between which makes these misunderstandings go even further.

Note that I put “toxic” between quotes. My point is that Haviz has little tact, he expresses his views frankly, and that is fine because he is usually right on everything but EU politics Note that your interpretation has nothing to do with what I said.

Kodiak.3281:

So no, you didn’t provide any alternatives at all despite what you imagine happened.

Bro, the message is still there. I did advise people to look at other builds.

Actually you couldn’t prove a thing except in Spreadsheet form which is still useless because it’s unrealistic to encounter mechanics. It wasn’t until damage meters came out that you could really prove anything you were saying. Talking about a concept (min-maxing) doesn’t mean you accept that as a way to play. This again is why you are always confused because you read what I write but clearly don’t understand the meaning behind it. Language barriers I really wish there were Euro forums

Most of your points weren’t critiques of the build but rather how I was playing when showing off the survivability of the build and doing things like running into damage to show that it had enough toughness/health to survive WvW Spike. In turn you complained about things like auto attacking doors when there were 3 superior rams on a reinforced door as if any kind of auto attack really matters at that stage (and even then it was just until FGS came up to use FGS #4 back when that worked). Again, there’s that personal bias unable to stay objective about a topic and only dish out criticism.

Eight times I answered the question and eight times you ignored the answer. I can lead a horse to water, I can’t make it drink. It’s not my fault you made such a poor argument that the Elementalist wasn’t made to sustain hits. Maybe you shouldn’t use such generic language using words like “made” because they are pretty open to interpretation whether or not you consider traits, utilities and skills part of how the character was made. Again, probably another language barrier issue where you meant something else but just weren’t able to convey it properly.

A rant? Were my two sentences a rant? Again with that language barrier.

Honestly man it is pretty obvious regardless of what nationality you are there are problems with communication. I’d prefer to leave a simple sarcastic or hyperbolic statement in a few lines (or as you call it a “rant”) but past discussions has proven this is problematic and you seem to take this stuff pretty literally. Only way I can be sure I’m being clear is giving long, detailed posts clearly stating my points. Unfortunately I think this has a side effect you only skim my posts, find a sentence you disagree with, quote it and then take it as an entire summary of my viewpoint. I wish it were some lame excuse, but then I remember you seriously thought I was advocating people should run around waving their arms pretending to do things and it’s pretty clear it’s not.

Kodiak.3281:

Actually you couldn’t prove a thing except in Spreadsheet form which is still useless because it’s unrealistic to encounter mechanics.

It is not. You clearly have no idea how I made my calculations. Besides, as I told you before, if an encounter affects all builds in a similar fashion then you can often disregard the encounter mechanics in order to evaluate builds that are similar enough.

Kodiak.3281:

Language barriers I really wish there were Euro forums

You are the only one complaining about that, and honestly that’s quite pathetic.

Kodiak.3281:

Most of your points weren’t critiques of the build but rather how I was playing

It is true that there was too much to say about your performance to leave much room for build critique, yet I did it too. But I do not want to explain why and how I critiqued your performance as this would be perceived as a personal attack by the moderators. Besides, we discussed this many times already.

Kodiak.3281:

Eight times I answered the question and eight times you ignored the answer. I can lead a horse to water, I can’t make it drink. It’s not my fault you made such a poor argument that the Elementalist wasn’t made to sustain hits. Maybe you shouldn’t use such generic language using words like “made” because they are pretty open to interpretation

Nah, if you read what I said just before:

if you consider only the passive attributes like armor and health.

it is not open to misinterpretation. Yet you deflected times and times again because you cannot stand being proven wrong.

Kodiak.3281:

you only skim my posts, find a sentence you disagree with, quote it and then take it as an entire summary of my viewpoint

I make the effort to read everything even though we have been through these discussions countless times. Then I want to make short answers, so for convenience and clarity I quote the most synoptic sentence and explain why you are wrong. I have proven you wrong on all these points before anyway, so it is not worth wasting the energy writing complex answers.

_

Edit: note to anyone still reading the discussion at this point, the only reason why I am using a much disliked quote-and-reply style for my answers is that we have been throught these discussion before but Kodiak comes back to them with tons of erroneous statements
Example:

it was just until FGS came up to use FGS #4 back when that worked

You did not use FGS4. You removed the video but I still remember very clearly. This is yet an other lie.

Actually people like Neko understand there are multiple ways to play and that people have different goals and priorities. There’s actually very small group of people who are concerned with the advice others give.

Using stickies is a poor metric. Some forums have no stickies despite there being very common ways to play their characters (Warrior, Engie, Thief, Ranger, etc). Other classes have multiple guides and posts stickied up top (Mesmer, Guardian). I know because your post is stickied you again take it as a feather in your cap but when you objectively compare it to all the other examples you can clearly see it seems rather arbitrary whether a post does or does not get stickied in a forum when a majority of classes have nothing at all.

Often times you say “such and such” build is inefficient or not optimal. The problem is again you leave out the context in which they are inefficient or not optimal because you leave out the goal in which the terms they’re being used in. One of two scenarios exist. One, you think the builds are not efficient or optimal at completing content the fastest (which your goal there being is doing content the fastest). Two, you think the builds are not efficient/optimal in the game period which is wrong because if it’s my goal to lazymode my way through the game giving me a Berserker build will cause me to die and I won’t get anything done which is horrendously inefficient and not optimal. You know, the same points I’ve been saying repeatedly over and over again that you commented on me saying over and over yet you are incapable of answering

While I know you’d love to just focus on the “toxic” part I was actually referring to not only the low tact you say he has but more importantly hating mediocrity. Hating mediocrity implies a certain level of feeling there are some people who are lesser than yourself (they are medicore). That’s pretty much the definition of elitism. Language barrier again, I guess.

Went to the thread: Didn’t see a single thing you linked. I did read how the OP was happy to get a response and enjoyed the response despite all the arguing going on so there’s that Maybe it was in your posts that were deleted in moderation

I had an idea how you made your calculations years ago, on the spreadsheet you kept trying to show me. My argument is the same argument as then, it’s entirely dependant on encounter mechanics. A D/F won’t have the same DPS as staff on COF path 1 where you rescue the captive and have to kill the acolytes and has to waste time running back in. The calculations only make sense if the encounter supports it.

I’m just pointing out sometimes you use words incorrectly. I’m sorry you feel this is pathetic. I understand it must be pretty frustrating to try to convey ideas that don’t make sense because you aren’t using the right words. I’m trying to be sympathetic to your problem.

Yet, in my reply to Thaddeus, when did I ever specify that stipulation? I stated saying the Elementalist wasn’t made to sustain hits was false. I never said in the context of armor and hit points but rather the entire class. You immediately launched into a view of what you say. Furthermore, for someone who prides themselves on objectivity you seem to ignore the principle of objectivity. All sides must be considered. I hope you understand this example, but your argument was like saying when you only consider your legs and feet Humans are pretty bad at picking up objects. Why would you make such an oddly specific argument while ignoring the obvious picking up capability of arms and hands? Your argument is a narrow view of only the facts that support your viewpoint rather than the entire view of all the facts.

You say you’ve proven me wrong, but the only time I ever remember you actually proving me wrong was when I was mistaken about diminishing returns on stats a few years ago. I mean I’m sure you’re convinced you’ve proved me wrong multiple times but often times you simply change topics or cherry pick another quote and move the conversion in another direction. In fact there are still numerous questions and points brought up in the original discussion here that went unanswered. Saying things like you could answer them but don’t feel like it, I just assume you can’t answer them and are using that as an excuse

Kodiak.3281:

Actually people like Neko understand there are multiple ways to play and that people have different goals and priorities.

As we all do.

There’s actually very small group of people who are concerned with the advice others give.

It’s not even a small group, it is just you Kodiak.

Kodiak.3281:

Using stickies is a poor metric.

All the metrics I have are poor, yet they all point in the same direction. Maybe the reason why there is no guide with alternative gear is because we already cover it in our guides, or because people do not need a guide for this.

Kodiak.3281:

Often times you say “such and such” build is inefficient or not optimal. The problem is again you leave out the context in which they are inefficient or not optimal because you leave out the goal in which the terms they’re being used in.

Here is what I replied to you on this point long ago:

I think unless the players who come on the forums clearly state their perspective then it is normal that their ideas are judged from the perspective that is common to the majority of the community.

Kodiak.3281:

Hating mediocrity implies a certain level of feeling there are some people who are lesser than yourself (they are medicore). That’s pretty much the definition of elitism.

Not people, but only their skill level in the game. And again, this has nothing to do with how he evaluates things.

Kodiak.3281:

Went to the thread: Didn’t see a single thing you linked.

Go again and see how I urge people to check other condi builds. Those builds where posted on the same week as your condimentalist thread.

Kodiak.3281:

The calculations only make sense if the encounter supports it.

That’s why I said we could use it to compare builds that are similar enough. You asked me to prove mathematically that some runes are better than others, you really think I need to take encounter design into account for this? And well, it is also quite possible to use it for diverging builds, but you have no idea about this since you have no idea how we make calculations.

Kodiak.3281:

I’m just pointing out sometimes you use words incorrectly.

Go ahead and give me an example.

Kodiak.3281:

Yet, in my reply to Thaddeus, when did I ever specify that stipulation? I stated saying the Elementalist wasn’t made to sustain hits was false.

We’ve had this discussion already just days ago… Good god. Anyway, you copy pasted the exact words I used in order to contradict them, while Thaddeus never mentioned anything like this. Then After you deflected a few times I made my point very clear to you again, but you stubbornly refused to admit that you are wrong.

Kodiak.3281:

In fact there are still numerous questions and points brought up in the original discussion here that went unanswered.

Look how many times I say “as I have told you before”
I have answered all your points, many many times. You just fail to acknowledge that.

_

Seriously look at the points you keep making. It has nothing to do with your perception of how you think we “hate on everything that is not meta”. It really looks like you have a problem against me.
You do not even contest my principles. You only argue against what you perceive is my application of those principles, and yet your arguments are erroneous.

I liked this reply until I noticed two lines in it:

—
“I think we really need to dispel some misconceptions about efficiency. If I deem something more efficient than some others, for a given goal, it means that what I support can achieve more, it means that you can get more output for your input. But this presupposes that you give the right input. I write in my guides that players should be conscious about who they are what they want to achieve. My belief is that players should be aware of their skill level (mine is not that high) so that they know the quality of their input and can therefore chose what build to use for best results. I firmly believe in this and I respect anyone who makes such choices. Of course I respect even more those who pick builds that empower their team, but I cannot dream for everybody to be perfectly altruistic. That being said it is an objective fact that some builds are more efficient (get more output for the right input) than others, considering the core of the common desires of the community: getting rewards. But it is also true that the higher the efficiency the more commitment it requires from the players and their team. I am perfectly fine with people choosing the level of commitment they want to enjoy their gaming experience, and consequently I am perfectly fine with people not choosing the most efficient builds – just like I do. And as I am perfectly fine with anyone’s decision, I expect people to be perfectly fine with my explaining of how builds are efficient or not. Is this not fair? If Kodiak had read just the introduction of my guide then this conversation would have been over two years ago.”
—
My issue with the two bolded sections are: on one hand you say you’re fine with people finding the builds that work for them based on what they are capable of input. But immediately follow it with the implication that if they choose a build that is not the most efficient, they are selfish or lack commitment. Am I reading that wrong?

It’s great to have an ideal build and explain that to people looking for help. I think that’s awesome. But if it’s the only choice that is handed to people, when not everyone is capable of using that build effectively (not everyone has the same skillset, that’s just life), then it’s not very helpful. And it won’t help them achieve more. I think being willing to use that build as an ideal and trying to explain it to new players is good. But I think working with people to find a build that helps them achieve more at their level of ability is better.

If someone came on and said “I’ve tried your build, but I just can’t get it to work for me.” would you only suggest that build, or would you work with them to find a better build for >them<? I’m trying to figure out if you really want people to achieve more, even if it means suggesting a build that is not the most efficient, but would be the most efficient for them.

There are many people on this forum who do just that… And I’ve learned quite a bit from their posts. I think knowing where people are as far as level of play is, can lead to much more constructive advice.

If you’ve given that advice in the past and I’m just unaware, please forgive me. I can only go by the most recent things I’ve read, which give me no indication of truly constructive advice. If you have, then I apologize in advance.

Principles, another vague term. Do you mean principles in your build? Principles in your advice? Principles of how you give advice or feel the need to bash other people’s advice? Are you even aware what the word principle actually means and how immutable it is? How does one answer such a vague concept when you can’t properly define what you’re actually talking about?

I actually don’t care what advice you give people. Berserker. Celestial. Soldier. Condi. It’s all good long as it’s the advice the person is looking for. You don’t see me going to threads no one responds to and no one is helping in and suggesting an alternative route when they ask for Berserker do you? Instead you see me going to Berserker threads where they can’t pull it off and being the odd man out. Instead of telling them that dying is normal and to get used to it or the other myriad advice you see in those threads but rather to try a different route.

What gets me is when people are incapable of making an argument for their advice without disparaging others’ advice. If the merits of playing Berserker are so obvious and so widely accepted there should be no problems making a strong enough argument why they should be used without having to put down the rest. You can claim you are doing this for the public good, but I will always see it as insecurity.

People do state their perspective and what they want and what they are having troubles with. Again I totally stay clear of any thread that’s talking about wanting Berserker because I don’t have any kind of advice for those people. When people talk about switching in Defensive gear or having trouble with content I give them the benefit of my experience playing with that play style.

You can clarify what you want about your guild leader but the words you choose to use form impressions. You tell me someone is toxic and hates mediocrity I immediately think of an elitist by definition.

Don’t make me laugh about your guide and it’s advice on defensive gear. It’s literally a paragraph amongst an essay on why Berserker, Assassins, etc is the greatest. It doesn’t talk at all about the upsides of using defensive gear or the advantages it has but simply if you’re going to do it this is the way you should do it. Except even that is largely is inaccurate but I’m not surprised out of someone who admittedly lacks an interest in discussing gear alternatives.

Is the Elementalist made with traits? Is it made with utilities? Is the Elementalist made with heals, boons, and lots of condi cleansing? Do we have any other kind of mechanics to avoid sustaining hits like a thief’s Stealth or a Mesmer’s clones? When you make an argument like a class isn’t made to sustain hits it generally implies they have alternative methods to avoid getting hit entirely. The Elementalist has very few of these (like most classes) and instead relies on heals, boons and condi cleanse to sustain through hits. If you choose to ignore all these in favor of damage that’s a choice, but it’s a choice with consequences as you’re actively ignoring the tools the Elementalist was made with to sustain damage. Why you’re even arguing this is beyond me as it’s as obvious as the sky is blue.

You ignore most of my points in favor of changing the discussion or narrow in on one part of the discussion. For example in this thread we’re talking about how the builds matter. We finally get around to the fact it’s not the builds that matter, builds are just tools, but it’s the players that matter. From there you immediately switch it up to trying to attack me personally and bring up posts from years ago. Then when you’re called on that you finally accept that different builds are going to work better for different players but now refuse to see that different players have different goals and there’s more efficient and optimal ways to reach those different goals. Why are we even rehashing talking about criticizing other builds when you already know it’s not the build but the player that matters?

You can keep saying this is personal, but you’re the one who replies to me. I didn’t find something you said in a thread and make a reply, you did. In every thread you and I have ever discussed in it’s because you started the discussion, not me. It’s very, very clear you have a personal issue here and frankly I’d be tickled pink if you’d just ignore every post I make. That’s an idiom btw, I wouldn’t literally be tickled into a pink color.