Guild Wars 2

When you look at the Ele in PvP, what do you see? Not much because there isn’t much there. Ele is practically useless in PvP now, both in sPvP and tPvP. The low health, the low armor scaling, and the unreasonable cooldowns. You can’t have good dmg without having low health and toughness, and you can’t have good tanky skills because there would be no damage coming from you.

Skills: While many argue that Elementalist players should quit whining because they have different weapon sets, basically; they’ve never played ele for themselves. It’s not easy swapping to the different weapon sets, and not to mention it’s interrupted very easily.

Traits: The traits for ele, in my opinion, are ok and I have no complaints other than the fact that the traits are organized to the different attunements. It should be in affect to all of the other attunements, not just the one. Sorry if that confuses some.

Armor: Absolutely horrifying. Whereas most professions can get tankiness and high damage along with it, ele has nothing. The most toughness I can ever get in my ele is 3.1k, and with that the most attack is 2.8k. But without crit chance for ele, your skills and attunements are basically useless. And with that toughness and attack, there’s only 4% crit chance.

Cooldown times: Also horrifying. We’re talking a 75 second cooldown on Mist Form, for three seconds of invulnerability, and you can’t even heal inside of it? Only good that is for is to break stuns, and only that because other professions have range, also unlike ele.

Ele never used to be this useless in PvP, until Anet nerfed it into oblivion. Only good thing that comes from it is that it’s fun to level in PvE. That’s about it.

Ele needs a change in PvP. The problems it faces outweigh the good things that come from it.

So, let’s take a look at Invulnerability Skills compared to Mistform …

Ele – Mistform:
3s Invulnerability, 75s Cooldown Untraited, 60s Traited. Can be traited to Damage, Chill and Inflict Vulnerability. Also can be traited to give Vigor and Regeneration. Breaks Stun.

Warrior – Endure Pain:
4s Invulnerability, 60s Cooldown, Still take Damage from Conditions, Breaks Stun.

Guardian – Renewable Focus:
3s Invulnerability, 90s Cooldown, Recharge Virtues.

So you’re saying Mist Form is worse then similiar skills? It ’s not. It ’s the most versatile. It seems only a learn to build and learn to play issue.

Also about that sentence:

Whereas most professions can get tankiness and high damage along with it, ele has nothing

The only class with Versatile Builds which implement something like that I can imagine right now is Guardian when they trait for AH. But their Damage isn’t THAT great when they go for that one and also their Ranged Weapons are on the low end compared to any other classes in this game so it ’s kind of balanced.

I believe that sentence is also mostly an issue of you meeting more skilled players that use their active (dmg, evade, invulnerability) and passive (buildstrategy) tools better and come out on top of you.

That said, I also believe PvP-Balance should be ASAP splitted from PvE-Balance and should also get more versatility like PvE provides right now (!). The only thing that I feel about it right now is that it ’s getting more and more “simple” as time floats by. Removing all versatility, resulting in more broken Traits, more broken Builds, more unhappy Players …

imaginary.6241:

So, let’s take a look at Invulnerability Skills compared to Mistform …

Ele – Mistform:
3s Invulnerability, 75s Cooldown Untraited, 60s Traited. Can be traited to Damage, Chill and Inflict Vulnerability. Also can be traited to give Vigor and Regeneration. Breaks Stun.

Warrior – Endure Pain:
4s Invulnerability, 60s Cooldown, Still take Damage from Conditions, Breaks Stun.

Guardian – Renewable Focus:
3s Invulnerability, 90s Cooldown, Recharge Virtues.

So you’re saying Mist Form is worse then similiar skills? It ’s not. It ’s the most versatile. It seems only a learn to build and learn to play issue.

I mean, you’ve left a lot of stuff.

Let’s not look at traits. Or if we do, let’s use the most traited possible version of this type of skill. Deep breath…

Mist Form: 75s cooldown. Breaks stun. Unable to use skills, grants invulnerability for 3 seconds. [Traited: 60s cooldown. Grants regeneration and vigor and cures a condition, OR damages, chills and inflicts vulnerability on nearby enemies.]

Distortion: 60s cooldown. Cast while CC’d. Able to use all skills, grants evasion for 3 seconds. Does not take up a skill bar slot. [Traited: 46s cooldown. Lasts for 4 seconds. Grants reflection. Grants 4 stacks of might and vigor. Inflicts confusion on nearby enemies. Cures a condition or heals you, or removes a boon from nearby enemies.]

Death Shroud: 10s cooldown. Cast while CC’d. Able to use a special skillbar, grants immunity to damage while active. Does not take up a skill bar slot and allows capturing of points. [Traited: 7s cooldown. Grants stability, fury and retaliation. Damages, weakens and bleeds nearby foes, or cures a condition, or inflicts vulnerability on nearby foes, or grants 25% increased movement speed.]

Elixir S: 60s cooldown. Breaks stun. Unable to use skills, grants evasion for 3 seconds. Grants a toolbelt skill that applies stealth or stability. [Traited: 48s cooldown. Cures a condition upon use and upon tossing it. Grants 2 stacks of might on use and 1 stack when tossed.]

Endure Pain: 60s cooldown. Breaks stun. Able to use all skills, grants immunity to damage for 4 seconds. Allows capturing of points. [Traited: Lasts 5 seconds and grants vigor.]

Renewed Focus: 90s cooldown. Unable to use skills, grants invulnerability for 2 seconds. Recharges your virtues, so you can burn your foe, heal, and block an additional 2 attacks. [Traited: Lasts 3 seconds. Recharging virtues and using them heals you, and grants might, regeneration, and protection or stability. With Lyssa runes, cures all conditions and grants all boons.]

First off, it’s strange that Obsidian Flesh is ostensibly a much better skill than Mist Form. It grants a longer invulnerability frame, is on a shorter recharge even untraited, and does not lock your skillbar. Something’s fishy when we have a weapon skill that’s superior to a utility skill in almost every way.

But regardless, it seems as though the actual effect of Mist Form is inferior to all of these other skills except Elixir S, because it’s on a high recharge and locks your skillbar. Endure Pain is also comparatively weak, but given the natural durability of the warrior and the ability to do damage and heal while under its effects, I’d say it’s still strong. Elixir S, however, also gives the engineer Toss Elixir S, which is a great spell even considered by itself.

People have said that it was obviously imbalanced for the ele to be able to heal in Mist Form – but honestly, I think that we should be able to. The ability to cast Ether Renewal during Mist Form would certainly go a long way toward making us more competitive in the current meta.

Mason.4178:

The numbers, Mason. What do they mean?

The problem with the elementalist is that, it is the only one where you feel like you are actually playing strategically and intelligently.

All other classes are mindless, press 1 and get big numbers with almost NO risk that is right no risk in any of their big skills. Try pulling off Earthquake without lightning flash, you are probably going to die.

The game currently favors spam X for 10k damage, while elementalist is A+b+d*X/D= 4k damage. WE need the whole game to be able to do A+b+d*X/D and that will make the game better. Also make condition damage the equivalent of critical/conditional. Right now the other 7 classes have EZ dps. We need to make everyone have difficult to acquire dps like the elementalist. while we are at it, fix the elementalist dependence on arcane and blah blah blah.

silvermember.8941:

The problem with the elementalist is that, it is the only one where you feel like you are actually playing strategically and intelligently.

All other classes are mindless, press 1 and get big numbers with almost NO risk that is right no risk in any of their big skills. Try pulling off Earthquake without lightning flash, you are probably going to die.

The game currently favors spam X for 10k damage, while elementalist is A+b+d*X/D= 4k damage. WE need the whole game to be able to do A+b+d*X/D and that will make the game better. Also make condition damage the equivalent of critical/conditional. Right now the other 7 classes have EZ dps. We need to make everyone have difficult to acquire dps like the elementalist. while we are at it, fix the elementalist dependence on arcane and blah blah blah.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA ! For 1 year ele was the Opést class in-game , now a little nerf and you guys Q.q badly ? HAHAHA come on guys !

Here we go again. I’m starting to suspect it’s the same group of people posting the same crap everytime. I mean seriously, learn to compensate with your own player skills or re roll. It’s very quite simple. Especially in spvp…your own level doesn’t matter. God, stop the whining.

dani.1956:

silvermember.8941:

The problem with the elementalist is that, it is the only one where you feel like you are actually playing strategically and intelligently.

All other classes are mindless, press 1 and get big numbers with almost NO risk that is right no risk in any of their big skills. Try pulling off Earthquake without lightning flash, you are probably going to die.

The game currently favors spam X for 10k damage, while elementalist is A+b+d*X/D= 4k damage. WE need the whole game to be able to do A+b+d*X/D and that will make the game better. Also make condition damage the equivalent of critical/conditional. Right now the other 7 classes have EZ dps. We need to make everyone have difficult to acquire dps like the elementalist. while we are at it, fix the elementalist dependence on arcane and blah blah blah.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA ! For 1 year ele was the Opést class in-game , now a little nerf and you guys Q.q badly ? HAHAHA come on guys !

YOu mean for 1 year we were force to played a kittenty build called bunker because we were a glass cannon without the cannon and simply just a glass? A build that could last for 8 minutes without doing anything except waste people’s time?

If you are trying to be funny at least tell jokes.

Oh yes, I initially posted a longer list but got logged out at first and rewritten most parts of it from memory asap before getting logged out again.

But you’re right Mesmers Distortion was left out as well as Elexir S and Obisidian Flesh. Death Shroud does now take Damage over to their Health Pool as well so it ‘s no real Invulnerability anymore and also left out that Endure Pain still takes Damage from Conditions. Also Death Shroud can only be cast after having build up enought Life Force so it ’s not really on a 10s Cooldown. Also Renewable Focus is always 3s you don’t have to Trait for it. That said taking multiple synergies (like I did above – not taking equipment choices into consideration! like you did above with runes for with renewable focus!) into consideration Ele ’s are still on the better side of it.

I mean hello? 2 Invulnerability skills? 40s and 60s when Traited or 50s and 70s when untraited. You want to be completely immune to Damage or what? All of them are somewhat balanced more or less and can be used to their purpose. I don’t think it ’s a valid point to really complain about.

A little side question:

You mentioned above that you’re only able to choose Chill/DMG/Vul or Vigor/Regen – don’t they work together? Haven’t checked it yet. So I’m curious.

Lettuce.2945:

Here we go again. I’m starting to suspect it’s the same group of people posting the same crap everytime. I mean seriously, learn to compensate with your own player skills or re roll. It’s very quite simple. Especially in spvp…your own level doesn’t matter. God, stop the whining.

Azunai.5974:

Mason.4178:

The numbers, Mason. What do they mean?

Yes indead that ‘s true. Yet its mostly the people who don’t even take a fraction of time to do some real calculations, comparisons and discuss it properly but spit superlatives around that complain about some numbers being wrong. And that ’s not even taking into consideration that you need to test those theories out as well and learn to apply them …

That said a higher player skill can most of the time work around any per theory superlative statics when they’re not unbalanced and unavoidable by a large amount (which I can’t see here).

So that means learn to play.

silvermember.8941:

The problem with the elementalist is that, it is the only one where you feel like you are actually playing strategically and intelligently.

All other classes are mindless, press 1 and get big numbers with almost NO risk that is right no risk in any of their big skills. Try pulling off Earthquake without lightning flash, you are probably going to die.

The game currently favors spam X for 10k damage, while elementalist is A+b+d*X/D= 4k damage. WE need the whole game to be able to do A+b+d*X/D and that will make the game better. Also make condition damage the equivalent of critical/conditional. Right now the other 7 classes have EZ dps. We need to make everyone have difficult to acquire dps like the elementalist. while we are at it, fix the elementalist dependence on arcane and blah blah blah.

I would argue Engineer is currently a more tactically versatile class than the Ele. What the Ele is, is as you pointed out, much more complicated in terms of mechanics. I feel that the major problem with the class is also as you pointed out, more complexity with less payout.

That is where I think the Devs are currently most confused. They have mixed up complexity with versatility; thinking that making us juggle between 20 skills, that mostly do the same thing, is equivalent to having just 5 skills that are unique in function. And that the more juggling we are forced to do, the better the class will somehow become.

Solkard.5136:

Azunai.5974:

Mason.4178:

The numbers, Mason. What do they mean?

Yes indead that ‘s true. Yet its mostly the people who don’t even take a fraction of time to do some real calculations, comparissions and discuss it properly but spit superlatives around that complain about some numbers being wrong. And that ’s not even taking into consideration that you need to test those theories out as well and lear those in practice …

Lol. It was just a reference to Black Ops 1. I didn’t mean anything by that.

Azunai.5974:

Solkard.5136:

Azunai.5974:

Mason.4178:

The numbers, Mason. What do they mean?

Yes indead that ‘s true. Yet its mostly the people who don’t even take a fraction of time to do some real calculations, comparissions and discuss it properly but spit superlatives around that complain about some numbers being wrong. And that ’s not even taking into consideration that you need to test those theories out as well and lear those in practice …

Lol. It was just a reference to Black Ops 1. I didn’t mean anything by that.

Hehehe. Well, even then it ‘s true even if you didn’t mean anything by it. Learn to play makes up for quite some high amount of odd numbers (unless taking into consideration that both parties are equally skilled and don’t make any human misstakes which almost never happens).

silvermember.8941:

YOu mean for 1 year we were force to played a kittenty build called bunker because we were a glass cannon without the cannon and simply just a glass? A build that could last for 8 minutes without doing anything except waste people’s time?

If you are trying to be funny at least tell jokes.

^ This. Other then Bunker what have ele had? The damage is laughable and not even a threat to people without any armor. Had D/D “burst” but that was more down to the Control then the actual damage.

You could go FULL class cannon and you wont be able to kill most glass cannons of any other class simply due to the fact seriously low health as well as the added low damage for a “burst” build.

Lettuce.2945:

Here we go again. I’m starting to suspect it’s the same group of people posting the same crap everytime. I mean seriously, learn to compensate with your own player skills or re roll. It’s very quite simple. Especially in spvp…your own level doesn’t matter. God, stop the whining.

Have you played at high levels in spvp or tpvp, or are you looking at the fact that you do o.k. in Yolo-Q or Hot Join and thinking the class is o.k.? There is a problem when elementalists can’t be played at high levels without gimping their team. I asked Super the other day (#1 rank player in EU) what the role of an ele was in pvp, and his response was “be steathed by an engineer or thief and try to 1-shot a squishy target in team fights…if you get 1 condition on you, you are gonna go down so rely on your team to res you.” Phantaram, likewise (one of the best ele players) was forced to re-roll because his ele was unable to be effective and he served his team better just spamming skills on a necro. That is a problem. In fact, in the pvp forums they ran a list of most popular builds and how they fared against one another: the ele builds were at a disadvantage in EVERY matchup. That is not balanced.

We aren’t asking to be OP faceroll, we just want to have an even chance against other classes such that winning doesn’t require we outplay our opponents to an unreasonable degree.

Its similar to Mesmer, they are insnaly weak when it comes to proper PvP and TPvP, hardly taken 1 viable build that is nothing to fear and an easy target for anyone that deals conditions

You forgot to point out that the problem is the PvP node control mini-game that the entire game is balanced around. Were it balanced around, say, deathmatches, or perhaps actual group content, we’d have a completely different meta.

Right now what we have is what one would expect when balancing for “how long can I sit on one spot? Make it longer!”

This is also why people are so upset about the spirit ranger – spirit ranger, frankly, sucks. It’s a weak, weak build for anything other than sitting in one spot controlling. It excels at that. It’s not that spirits are OP (they’re weak, and easy to kill) nor that their bonuses are huge (far weaker than banners, or a well played support build) it’s the venue they are in.

Ele’s suffer from far more than that – there is nothing they do better than another class, other than self heal. Direct damage? Warriors and thieves laugh in your face. Bunker? Rangers and guardians have you beat. Condition damage? Every class except guardian has you beat. Mobility? Well, ele’s are more mobile than necromancers, at least!

Seriously, one build (the 0/10/0/30/30 bunker) being stupidly hard to beat, in a venue entirely about controlling a point, has resulted in the overnerfing of ele’s and rangers. (I’m torn on who gets the shorter end of the stick. I have both an ele and a ranger, and as things stand right now, I wouldn’t let those two classes into a group for anything, given any alternative.)

Instead of a lengthy post:

anet plz

stale.9785:

You forgot to point out that the problem is the PvP node control mini-game that the entire game is balanced around. Were it balanced around, say, deathmatches, or perhaps actual group content, we’d have a completely different meta.

You are forgetting WvW. That is pretty much Deathmatch, when you are fighting 1 Vs1 and guess what – Ele suck here as well, laughable damage they say best defense is a good offense, i guess thats why ele die all the time they have no offense.

I cant remember the last time i saw an Ele and was curious, every other class i will be wary – check the surrounding and see if i can get an idea of the build. I see ele and think “nice free kill”

While they might be decent/good at group fights, they still offer very little outside of support due to the laughable damage.

stale.9785:

Right now what we have is what one would expect when balancing for “how long can I sit on one spot? Make it longer!”

Yeah i agree with this, this makes certain classes weak at capping Mesmer is another example as well as Thief both who use stealth as a defense but of course stealth doesnt count for capping.

Though even when not on caps the same problem arises – damage, you cant kill anyone the damage is seriously weak, having to jump around attunements is terrible as well from a design standpoint.

Even if they added Deathmatch or Team deathmatch ele would still not be wanted, for the fact the damage is terrible. Team death match could be added, deathmatch wont be due to just how unbalanced all the classes are and in this situation it moves from skill to class as to who will win.

stale.9785:

This is also why people are so upset about the spirit ranger – spirit ranger, frankly, sucks. It’s a weak, weak build for anything other than sitting in one spot controlling. It excels at that. It’s not that spirits are OP (they’re weak, and easy to kill) nor that their bonuses are huge (far weaker than banners, or a well played support build) it’s the venue they are in.

Same as Ele bunker then.

stale.9785:

Ele’s suffer from far more than that – there is nothing they do better than another class, other than self heal. Direct damage? Warriors and thieves laugh in your face. Bunker? Rangers and guardians have you beat. Condition damage? Every class except guardian has you beat. Mobility? Well, ele’s are more mobile than necromancers, at least!

There is nothing they can do, the ONLY thing they are “good” at other classes do better and easier. direct damage i think EVERYONE laughs at them, Bunker i agree, Conditions i agree, Mobility they have Mesmer beat as well in my opinion Portal and Blink are rubbish and only have Focus as an option for reliable swiftness

So 10k churned earth crits, 8k fire grabs, 2.5k – 4k lighting whips is laughable damage. 4-6k flame wall is laughable too? Mmkay. sPvP just needs to be adjusted to include deathmatches and gears that actually matches outside (pve/wvw) stats rather than the lame presets in there…Because eles can pump up their char to do insane dps. You also have to realize your role might end up being zerg dps. What i’m saying is…Let’s say you don’t do well vs 1 type of class, go with 1 more other person on your team to dps that class to death. Work together. In every game, every class has their achilles heel, what you do to compensate for that is what differentiates you from the rest of the whiners.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

stale.9785:

You forgot to point out that the problem is the PvP node control mini-game that the entire game is balanced around. Were it balanced around, say, deathmatches, or perhaps actual group content, we’d have a completely different meta.

You are forgetting WvW. That is pretty much Deathmatch, when you are fighting 1 Vs1 and guess what – Ele suck here as well, laughable damage they say best defense is a good offense, i guess thats why ele die all the time they have no offense.

I cant remember the last time i saw an Ele and was curious, every other class i will be wary – check the surrounding and see if i can get an idea of the build. I see ele and think “nice free kill”

While they might be decent/good at group fights, they still offer very little outside of support due to the laughable damage.

stale.9785:

Right now what we have is what one would expect when balancing for “how long can I sit on one spot? Make it longer!”

Yeah i agree with this, this makes certain classes weak at capping Mesmer is another example as well as Thief both who use stealth as a defense but of course stealth doesnt count for capping.

Though even when not on caps the same problem arises – damage, you cant kill anyone the damage is seriously weak, having to jump around attunements is terrible as well from a design standpoint.

Even if they added Deathmatch or Team deathmatch ele would still not be wanted, for the fact the damage is terrible. Team death match could be added, deathmatch wont be due to just how unbalanced all the classes are and in this situation it moves from skill to class as to who will win.

stale.9785:

This is also why people are so upset about the spirit ranger – spirit ranger, frankly, sucks. It’s a weak, weak build for anything other than sitting in one spot controlling. It excels at that. It’s not that spirits are OP (they’re weak, and easy to kill) nor that their bonuses are huge (far weaker than banners, or a well played support build) it’s the venue they are in.

Same as Ele bunker then.

stale.9785:

Ele’s suffer from far more than that – there is nothing they do better than another class, other than self heal. Direct damage? Warriors and thieves laugh in your face. Bunker? Rangers and guardians have you beat. Condition damage? Every class except guardian has you beat. Mobility? Well, ele’s are more mobile than necromancers, at least!

There is nothing they can do, the ONLY thing they are “good” at other classes do better and easier. direct damage i think EVERYONE laughs at them, Bunker i agree, Conditions i agree, Mobility they have Mesmer beat as well in my opinion Portal and Blink are rubbish and only have Focus as an option for reliable swiftness

You missed part of my point with the deathmatch comparison. If we had deathmatch as our primary pvp venue, then they’d have to balance around it, and all around ele would become more viable.

As it stands now, the only “balance” consideration involves moving the spirit watch orb, and ability to control more than one node. As long as there’s no mobility advantage and no dual node control, Anet views that as “balanced.” Bleh.

Lettuce.2945:

So 10k churned earth crits, 8k fire grabs, 2.5k – 4k lighting whips is laughable damage. 4-6k flame wall is laughable too? Mmkay. sPvP just needs to be adjusted to include deathmatches and gears that actually matches outside (pve/wvw) stats rather than the lame presets in there…Because eles can pump up their char to do insane dps. You also have to realize your role might end up being zerg dps. What i’m saying is…Let’s say you don’t do well vs 1 type of class, go with 1 more other person on your team to dps that class to death. Work together. In every game, every class has their achilles heel, what you do to compensate for that is what differentiates you from the rest of the whiners.

Anyone caught by Churning Earth is terrible, its nearly a 4second cast and in my opinion the EASIEST skill to dodge, move out of or just interrupt. Fire Grab is solid, long cool down and can be interrupted needs to be in range as well, which 300 isnt exactly far reaching and same goes for Lightening whip

While that damage is nice, how much health you got? how much armor/toughness? that is one of the biggest costs the lowest health pool and yeah might do decent damage IF it hits, if it doesnt then you are pretty much dead thanks to the terrible health pool.

So how mch time do they need to be standing in Firewall for it to do that much damage. that is like 4k dps otherwise. What do you do against Range? I mean those that just kite and stay at range? How is your low range skills going to help you then?

I agree, the way S/TPvP stats are designed is very strong, it is like they are limiting thinking that it will make for better matches, not seeing that it gives some classes (mostly ele) a huge disadvantage.

So your solution would be rather then fix what is wrong with the clasds is to have them running around with a buddy, Mesmer need that in TPvP or they die ALOT needing 2 classes that have to be babysat is terrible, thanks to Anet.

You really think that it is fair that you would NEED another person as you are to weak for a 1 Vs 1?

stale.9785:

You missed part of my point with the deathmatch comparison. If we had deathmatch as our primary pvp venue, then they’d have to balance around it, and all around ele would become more viable.

As it stands now, the only “balance” consideration involves moving the spirit watch orb, and ability to control more than one node. As long as there’s no mobility advantage and no dual node control, Anet views that as “balanced.” Bleh.

This would bring its own issues, you cant balance PvP around a bunker mode, you cant balance it around a dps burst mode which a deathmatch mode would pretty much be.They need to add several game modes and balance around that, but it wont happen as they are struggling to balance it around ONE.

Seriously, Lettuce, if you’re killing anyone in wvw with your ele, they are terribad. The only things there’s any excuse to be hit by is the lightning on attuning to air, and air 2 on staff.

How I approach an ele in wvw. Check his weapon set – that gives his range (either d/d, so pure melee, s/d, again, melee range, or staff.) He can’t change, so there’s no surprises. If he’s d/d, it’s trivial to stay out of range of his attacks – maintain range and kill him. S/d is the same thing. Staff? Close to melee and kill.

I think the last time I died due to an ele was probably before christmas. There’s literally no excuse. I play guardian these days, and I can 1) outrun an ele, 2) outheal their damage, 3) clear any condition they put on me, 4) outdamage their healing, unless they’re a bunker, in which case, you ignore them, because they’re not dangerous.

Seriously – the class is in desperate need of love (same with ranger) and people tucking their heads in the sand crying “we’re really ok – we’re better than ok – we’re greeaaatttt!” doesn’t help any.

stale.9785:

Seriously, Lettuce, if you’re killing anyone in wvw with your ele, they are terribad. The only things there’s any excuse to be hit by is the lightning on attuning to air, and air 2 on staff.

How I approach an ele in wvw. Check his weapon set – that gives his range (either d/d, so pure melee, s/d, again, melee range, or staff.) He can’t change, so there’s no surprises. If he’s d/d, it’s trivial to stay out of range of his attacks – maintain range and kill him. S/d is the same thing. Staff? Close to melee and kill.

I think the last time I died due to an ele was probably before christmas. There’s literally no excuse. I play guardian these days, and I can 1) outrun an ele, 2) outheal their damage, 3) clear any condition they put on me, 4) outdamage their healing, unless they’re a bunker, in which case, you ignore them, because they’re not dangerous.

Seriously – the class is in desperate need of love (same with ranger) and people tucking their heads in the sand crying “we’re really ok – we’re better than ok – we’re greeaaatttt!” doesn’t help any.

^ This, In WvW Ele are NO threat, i have even beaten several Ele in a 1 V 3 (2 ele and a warrior) Now that really isnt an accomplishment as ele are as i said no threat and the warrior was awful which shows how bad he was when he called for help as i was constantly killing him and came with 2 ele lol

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Lettuce.2945:

So 10k churned earth crits, 8k fire grabs, 2.5k – 4k lighting whips is laughable damage. 4-6k flame wall is laughable too? Mmkay. sPvP just needs to be adjusted to include deathmatches and gears that actually matches outside (pve/wvw) stats rather than the lame presets in there…Because eles can pump up their char to do insane dps. You also have to realize your role might end up being zerg dps. What i’m saying is…Let’s say you don’t do well vs 1 type of class, go with 1 more other person on your team to dps that class to death. Work together. In every game, every class has their achilles heel, what you do to compensate for that is what differentiates you from the rest of the whiners.

Anyone caught by Churning Earth is terrible, its nearly a 4second cast and in my opinion the EASIEST skill to dodge, move out of or just interrupt. Fire Grab is solid, long cool down and can be interrupted needs to be in range as well, which 300 isnt exactly far reaching and same goes for Lightening whip

While that damage is nice, how much health you got? how much armor/toughness? that is one of the biggest costs the lowest health pool and yeah might do decent damage IF it hits, if it doesnt then you are pretty much dead thanks to the terrible health pool.

So how mch time do they need to be standing in Firewall for it to do that much damage. that is like 4k dps otherwise. What do you do against Range? I mean those that just kite and stay at range? How is your low range skills going to help you then?

I agree, the way S/TPvP stats are designed is very strong, it is like they are limiting thinking that it will make for better matches, not seeing that it gives some classes (mostly ele) a huge disadvantage.

So your solution would be rather then fix what is wrong with the clasds is to have them running around with a buddy, Mesmer need that in TPvP or they die ALOT needing 2 classes that have to be babysat is terrible, thanks to Anet.

You really think that it is fair that you would NEED another person as you are to weak for a 1 Vs 1?

You don’t know you can charge churned earth then lighting flash? A stupid ele would just walk up and churned earth expecting not to be interrupted or that people will stay in the rings. You can cast armor of earth before doing that combo as well if you don’t want to take the risk of being interrupted.

Check out this guy’s stats. And let’s not forget he traited more on earth instead of water, so he could have higher hp in his previous build stats, 20k or so. He changed builds to that build b/c of the defense against the guards mastery. And that build is giving him the dps that I mentioned before. Watch his wvw videos. Seriously…Eles are viable. Just need to understand your role and what classes is your achilles heel. Some classes requires more teamwork on them rather than others. Simple as that.

I’m not quite sure what’s so hard to understand about this.

So, having to use up a utility slot to make it worth it, while also being easy to dodge and stop – still getting nuked or interrupted before they use the LF means thakittens a waste of a utility slot in my opinion

Lettuce.2945:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Lettuce.2945:

So 10k churned earth crits, 8k fire grabs, 2.5k – 4k lighting whips is laughable damage. 4-6k flame wall is laughable too? Mmkay. sPvP just needs to be adjusted to include deathmatches and gears that actually matches outside (pve/wvw) stats rather than the lame presets in there…Because eles can pump up their char to do insane dps. You also have to realize your role might end up being zerg dps. What i’m saying is…Let’s say you don’t do well vs 1 type of class, go with 1 more other person on your team to dps that class to death. Work together. In every game, every class has their achilles heel, what you do to compensate for that is what differentiates you from the rest of the whiners.

Anyone caught by Churning Earth is terrible, its nearly a 4second cast and in my opinion the EASIEST skill to dodge, move out of or just interrupt. Fire Grab is solid, long cool down and can be interrupted needs to be in range as well, which 300 isnt exactly far reaching and same goes for Lightening whip

While that damage is nice, how much health you got? how much armor/toughness? that is one of the biggest costs the lowest health pool and yeah might do decent damage IF it hits, if it doesnt then you are pretty much dead thanks to the terrible health pool.

So how mch time do they need to be standing in Firewall for it to do that much damage. that is like 4k dps otherwise. What do you do against Range? I mean those that just kite and stay at range? How is your low range skills going to help you then?

I agree, the way S/TPvP stats are designed is very strong, it is like they are limiting thinking that it will make for better matches, not seeing that it gives some classes (mostly ele) a huge disadvantage.

So your solution would be rather then fix what is wrong with the clasds is to have them running around with a buddy, Mesmer need that in TPvP or they die ALOT needing 2 classes that have to be babysat is terrible, thanks to Anet.

You really think that it is fair that you would NEED another person as you are to weak for a 1 Vs 1?

You don’t know you can charge churned earth then lighting flash? A stupid ele would just walk up and churned earth expecting not to be interrupted or that people will stay in the rings. You can cast armor of earth before doing that combo as well if you don’t want to take the risk of being interrupted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO-S_D8mgBg

Check out this guy’s stats. And let’s not forget he traited more on earth instead of water, so he could have higher hp in his previous build stats, 20k or so. He changed builds to that build b/c of the defense against the guards mastery. And that build is giving him the dps that I mentioned before. Watch his wvw videos. Seriously…Eles are viable. Just need to understand your role and what classes is your achilles heel. Some classes requires more teamwork on them rather than others. Simple as that.

I’m not quite sure what’s so hard to understand about this.

You’re posting stats about WvW, not s/tPvP. You can’t get all the bonuses he’s getting and the health. Try to recreate his success in structured without all the bonuses he’s getting.

Lettuce.2945:

You don’t know you can charge churned earth then lighting flash? A stupid ele would just walk up and churned earth expecting not to be interrupted or that people will stay in the rings. You can cast armor of earth before doing that combo as well if you don’t want to take the risk of being interrupted.

We all know about CE→LF. While situationally it is good, it is really bad against any class that bursts as they will gladly burst you down while you charge up that skill. A thief will gladly CnD—>backstab—>heartseeker you if you are gonna give him 3s of free damage. If you are using armor of earth or arcane shield, you just used 2 Utilities with pretty long and very long cooldowns for a skill that could be dodged or bleeds cleansed. The only time you would use both utils is if you are trying to bomb a big group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO-S_D8mgBg

Check out this guy’s stats. And let’s not forget he traited more on earth instead of water, so he could have higher hp in his previous build stats, 20k or so. He changed builds to that build b/c of the defense against the guards mastery. And that build is giving him the dps that I mentioned before. Watch his wvw videos. Seriously…Eles are viable. Just need to understand your role and what classes is your achilles heel. Some classes requires more teamwork on them rather than others. Simple as that.

I’m not quite sure what’s so hard to understand about this.

This guy’s entire build is only viable using a broken wvw mechanic (and he even says so). Every other class can get the same benefit and will outpace us if they build around it too. In fact, by using this as justification, you are showing that, to be on-par with other classes, we need a crutch like +2500 hp while they don’t. Think about what that really says about our power.

BlackBeard.2873:

Lettuce.2945:

You don’t know you can charge churned earth then lighting flash? A stupid ele would just walk up and churned earth expecting not to be interrupted or that people will stay in the rings. You can cast armor of earth before doing that combo as well if you don’t want to take the risk of being interrupted.

We all know about CE->LF. While situationally it is good, it is really bad against any class that bursts as they will gladly burst you down while you charge up that skill. A thief will gladly CnD—>backstab—>heartseeker you if you are gonna give him 3s of free damage. If you are using armor of earth or arcane shield, you just used 2 Utilities with pretty long and very long cooldowns for a skill that could be dodged or bleeds cleansed. The only time you would use both utils is if you are trying to bomb a big group.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO-S_D8mgBg

Check out this guy’s stats. And let’s not forget he traited more on earth instead of water, so he could have higher hp in his previous build stats, 20k or so. He changed builds to that build b/c of the defense against the guards mastery. And that build is giving him the dps that I mentioned before. Watch his wvw videos. Seriously…Eles are viable. Just need to understand your role and what classes is your achilles heel. Some classes requires more teamwork on them rather than others. Simple as that.

I’m not quite sure what’s so hard to understand about this.

This guy’s entire build is only viable using a broken wvw mechanic (and he even says so). Every other class can get the same benefit and will outpace us if they build around it too. In fact, by using this as justification, you are showing that, to be on-par with other classes, we need a crutch like +2500 hp while they don’t. Think about what that really says about our power.

How would he know that, he has only played for less than a 2 weeks.

after watching videos or people playing against noob, supposedly he is an expert in the class.

10,805 health in S/TPvP that says it all. Pathetic health FORCING you into going into Water or taking Vit gear. Even with more then 2,000toughness you are still going to be nuked down with ease. That 2,000Toughness is with Signet of Earth, 30points into Earth and 644 toughness from Amulet. Even then the damage is pathetic.

While in WvW you can get higher stats but guess what – so can everyone else.

Lettuce, everybody and their mother knows about lightning flash. We’ve known for a year.

The reason why it doesn’t work against other people who are skilled and experienced is because it’s so easy to dodge. Burning a cantrip or two only makes a bad move even worse. If you’re saying you’re able to hit people with it consistently, then we have nothing more to say because you’re destroying yourself by admitting you play against bad players.

I’ll indulge you anyway and say churning earth and flash works for ambushing. Other than that, using it in a duel or small fight is just an awful move.

imaginary.6241

I mean hello? 2 Invulnerability skills? 40s and 60s when Traited or 50s and 70s when untraited.

Are you talking about focus? You’re actually talking about focus+earth cooldowns trait as if they’re viable? And mist form’s base CD is 75s.
When one of the top players is forced to reroll from his favorite class, then you know that something is very wrong…(talking about Phantaram btw)
Edit: oh god, the quoting fails.

Lettuce.2945:

So 10k churned earth crits, 8k fire grabs, 2.5k – 4k lighting whips is laughable damage. 4-6k flame wall is laughable too? Mmkay. sPvP just needs to be adjusted to include deathmatches and gears that actually matches outside (pve/wvw) stats rather than the lame presets in there…Because eles can pump up their char to do insane dps. You also have to realize your role might end up being zerg dps. What i’m saying is…Let’s say you don’t do well vs 1 type of class, go with 1 more other person on your team to dps that class to death. Work together. In every game, every class has their achilles heel, what you do to compensate for that is what differentiates you from the rest of the whiners.

The legendary all-weapon ele. Churning earth, fire grab and flamewall.
Wait what? Flame wall does damage? You’d have to stand in the flame walls of 5 elementalists in full berserker for it to deal anywhere near 4k.
Churning earth hitting 10k and fire grab only 8? Are you counting the condition damage? Fire grab should hit more than churning earth with a burn.
Lightning whip for 2,5k if it’s all crits or he’s full zerk and you’re naked.
Here’s a tip: interrupting churning earth puts it on a 30 second cooldown. You can always also count to 3 and press v too.
I’m wondering why you didn’t mention dragon’s tooth too. It’s about as easy to dodge as churning earth. If you interrupt the ele AFTER he casts it it’ll still get the “interrupted” message.
If you were at least paying attention to elementalists right now you’d see that they all run either a huge cooldown instadown build that puts all(or at least 2 of) your utilities on cooldown or a fresh air build which gets its damage mainly from swapping.
And in the current sPvP meta neither are really useful. In WvW it’s either staff support for water fields and static or D/D bunker. In PvE it’s hammer all the way for DPS. 20v20/15v15 GvG also uses eles mostly for water fields+static.

First of all: Conditions tick during mist forn as well. With 30 in water, and using 2 traits it mist form does cure a single condition. Also I can’t believe that there’s an invulnerability discussion going on without mentioning Blurred Frenzy. 2s evade on 12s cooldown while dealing damage.

pmnt.4067:

First of all: Conditions tick during mist forn as well. With 30 in water, and using 2 traits it mist form does cure a single condition. Also I can’t believe that there’s an invulnerability discussion going on without mentioning Blurred Frenzy. 2s evade on 12s cooldown while dealing damage.

9 1/2 seconds if you trait it, so every 9 seconds you got a free invulnerability+damage. Well at least the mesmer isn’t as fast as the elementalist right?

silvermember.8941:

pmnt.4067:

First of all: Conditions tick during mist forn as well. With 30 in water, and using 2 traits it mist form does cure a single condition. Also I can’t believe that there’s an invulnerability discussion going on without mentioning Blurred Frenzy. 2s evade on 12s cooldown while dealing damage.

9 1/2 seconds if you trait it, so every 9 seconds you got a free invulnerability+damage. Well at least the mesmer isn’t as fast as the elementalist right?

I dunno about you but I’ve seen some very fast mesmers. And great escapes via portal.

Eles just need there stun breaks back the class is fine its just the meta is broken as kitten. There are condis everywhere and necros hard counter eles making them useless in team fights. Since condis are so dominant all power builds basically cannot exist due to the glassiness and lack of sustainability. I mean you saw before the buffs to necros teams were running double arcane eles.

silvermember.8941:

pmnt.4067:

First of all: Conditions tick during mist forn as well. With 30 in water, and using 2 traits it mist form does cure a single condition. Also I can’t believe that there’s an invulnerability discussion going on without mentioning Blurred Frenzy. 2s evade on 12s cooldown while dealing damage.

9 1/2 seconds if you trait it, so every 9 seconds you got a free invulnerability+damage. Well at least the mesmer isn’t as fast as the elementalist right?

I suggest you try it, Its been nerfed ALOT. You take Retal damage during it, you can STILL be hit by some attacks during it, the damage has been nerfed alot as well. Its NOT invul as you take Retal damage, condition damage, are stuck in place for its duration and some skills can STILL be used to interrupt it…

So before saying its a free invul, maybe actually PLAY the class and use the skill first.

apt.9184:

Eles just need there stun breaks back the class is fine its just the meta is broken as kitten. There are condis everywhere and necros hard counter eles making them useless in team fights. Since condis are so dominant all power builds basically cannot exist due to the glassiness and lack of sustainability. I mean you saw before the buffs to necros teams were running double arcane eles.

All these condition builds and yet Ele cant, i know Guardian cant either but they are better then Ele at Bunker, support and pretty much everything else.

For all those saying how to churn the earth correctly. One simple and incredibly destructive condition that makes churn completely useless. Blind. Let’s just say most classes have some sort of blind and even instant hit blinds.

A long time ago in a world called WvW, churn bombs were viable tactics. Then someone said “Why not just blind field?” Thus the churn bomb disappeared. The end.

Glitchfull.5826:

For all those saying how to churn the earth correctly. One simple and incredibly destructive condition that makes churn completely useless. Blind. Let’s just say most classes have some sort of blind and even instant hit blinds.

A long time ago in a world called WvW, churn bombs were viable tactics. Then someone said “Why not just blind field?” Thus the churn bomb disappeared. The end.

Pretty much every class has access to a stun or more and with say Perplexity they punish the Ele with it as well.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Glitchfull.5826:

For all those saying how to churn the earth correctly. One simple and incredibly destructive condition that makes churn completely useless. Blind. Let’s just say most classes have some sort of blind and even instant hit blinds.

A long time ago in a world called WvW, churn bombs were viable tactics. Then someone said “Why not just blind field?” Thus the churn bomb disappeared. The end.

Pretty much every class has access to a stun or more and with say Perplexity they punish the Ele with it as well.

With how spammy ele is, confusion can be a real pain without proper condi removal management.

Azunai.5974:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Glitchfull.5826:

For all those saying how to churn the earth correctly. One simple and incredibly destructive condition that makes churn completely useless. Blind. Let’s just say most classes have some sort of blind and even instant hit blinds.

A long time ago in a world called WvW, churn bombs were viable tactics. Then someone said “Why not just blind field?” Thus the churn bomb disappeared. The end.

Pretty much every class has access to a stun or more and with say Perplexity they punish the Ele with it as well.

With how spammy ele is, confusion can be a real pain without proper condi removal management.

This i agree with, however i was stating about the use of Churning Earth, very long cast time and easy to stun and interrupt and punish the ele with confusion for trying to use such a skill.

stale.9785:

Seriously, Lettuce, if you’re killing anyone in wvw with your ele, they are terribad. The only things there’s any excuse to be hit by is the lightning on attuning to air, and air 2 on staff.

How I approach an ele in wvw. Check his weapon set – that gives his range (either d/d, so pure melee, s/d, again, melee range, or staff.) He can’t change, so there’s no surprises. If he’s d/d, it’s trivial to stay out of range of his attacks – maintain range and kill him. S/d is the same thing. Staff? Close to melee and kill.

I think the last time I died due to an ele was probably before christmas. There’s literally no excuse. I play guardian these days, and I can 1) outrun an ele, 2) outheal their damage, 3) clear any condition they put on me, 4) outdamage their healing, unless they’re a bunker, in which case, you ignore them, because they’re not dangerous.

Seriously – the class is in desperate need of love (same with ranger) and people tucking their heads in the sand crying “we’re really ok – we’re better than ok – we’re greeaaatttt!” doesn’t help any.

I think the solution is to buff Warriors.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Azunai.5974:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Glitchfull.5826:

For all those saying how to churn the earth correctly. One simple and incredibly destructive condition that makes churn completely useless. Blind. Let’s just say most classes have some sort of blind and even instant hit blinds.

A long time ago in a world called WvW, churn bombs were viable tactics. Then someone said “Why not just blind field?” Thus the churn bomb disappeared. The end.

Pretty much every class has access to a stun or more and with say Perplexity they punish the Ele with it as well.

With how spammy ele is, confusion can be a real pain without proper condi removal management.

This i agree with, however i was stating about the use of Churning Earth, very long cast time and easy to stun and interrupt and punish the ele with confusion for trying to use such a skill.

Ah, right, this is what happens when I skim the entire thread. :P

While I fully agree eles, D/D eles in particular, are desperately in need of some buffs, I think some of you are underestimating the power of churning earth. If you expect to land it, you’ll be disappointed, but there are a lot of other ways to use it to your advantage.

1 – Zoning. Cast churning earth and there’s a good chance no one is going to walk towards you.

2 – Mind game your opponent. If you start to cast churning earth against someone who can’t stop it, they’re going to either dodge or blow a cooldown. You don’t even have to flash since they will do it preemptively.

3 – AI. Minions, spirits, elementals, mobs, etc. don’t dodge. It is your strongest ability for clearing ai.

4 – Engi elite. Everyone knows how nasty it is to try to fight an engineer standing inside the turrets from supply crate. Back off a bit, start casting churning earth, and instead of trying to hit the engi, flash right onto the turrets and you will pretty much instantly kill them, and probably get a dodge out of the engineer too since he thinks you’re aiming for him.

5 – Hitting the person you aren’t fighting. It’s not uncommon in a 1vx to be focusing one person while another stands back and attacks from range. If you start casting churning earth, the person you have been focusing on will try to avoid it, but the other generally won’t. Flash on top of them and it will do enough damage to either open an opportunity to kill them, or put them on the defensive and let you finish off the first opponent.

These are just some of the ways to make churning earth useful even when fighting an opponent who knows how to avoid it. Obviously it’s all situational and there will be some fights where it’s a bad idea to use it at all, but other times it will win you a fight without ever even hitting your opponent.

Azunai.5974:

Mason.4178:

The numbers, Mason. What do they mean?

LOL