Guild Wars 2

You keep disregarding any argument that doesn’t have something immediately to do with “Eles can vapor form into keeps and Thiefs cant” but what you are failing to realize is ANET doesn’t balance 1 feature of a class directly against 1 feature of another class. They balance entire classes against each other.

So lets turn this around. Lets say its my massive zerg in front of the Thief’s gate. Well the thief can just stealth and run through the zerg and likely make it, because any damage done to you will be by complete accident, and if you didnt walk around the AOE on the gate thats your own fault.

Now lets look at ele. Hmm there is a massive zerg on the gate? well I guess i can use mist form and get half way through the zerg followed by a dodge roll and then maybe get lucky and get inside. But for that whole time I AM COMPLETELY VISIBLE and people are free to target me. So i get downed and then use vapor form and I’m inside. phew.

Look at that, we both got inside the keep. Except for the thief it took way less effort and less risk.

This shouldn’t be about comparing downed skills to other classes downed skills. The classes aren’t balanced that way.

So if I get it right, at first the elementalist bunker was hard to kill so people were all sad about it and complained so elementalist got nerfed. They became even easier to kill but they could still run away. So people complained so arenanet nerfed mobility. Now they can catch us the moment we go out of a keep and kill us easily without us getting away our only saving grace being mistform in downed state with which we have 3 seconds to run into a keep and get rezzed…..
Lets nerf that too…… seriously?

Why not just root us in place whenever we enter combat so we’ll be even easier for all the bads to kill? Oh or even better, elementalists can no longer equip armor at all. We’ll just stand there in our town clothes and be even easier for you people to kill. It’s not like having the lowest hp and def in the entire game helps. Or the fact that a well timed chill completely shuts us down when a competent player actually pays attention to what attunement we’re in and times it right. It’s not like immobilize can stop our already sub-par mobility. Yes we had high mobility at one point and we could move around a lot IF we specced for mobility just like any other class could if they chose to spec for it. And we were still below rangers, thieves, and warriors even before all the nerfs. We weren’t the best, we weren’t even 2nd best. We were freaking 4th on the list of mobility when all those classes are equally specced for movement. But because a few bads with the philosophy of zerker and all damage skills or nothing else were too arrogant and stubborn to adapt to those of us who did decide to take advantage of one aspect of our class, we were nerfed over and over again. We’re somewhere between necros and engineers with mobility now. I still find it hilarious that there were so many thieves whining about how they were supposed to be the most mobile class and begged for ele to be nerfed so they could have an eles mobility when a thief that’s specced for mobility already outpaced an ele by a longshot even before all the nerfs. You clowns already were the most mobile class. You idiots just didn’t spec for movement and expect to outpace someone who does.

People trying to get ele nerfed because of their own incompetence again?

Some things never change do they?

MagusShade.2358:

You keep disregarding any argument that doesn’t have something immediately to do with “Eles can vapor form into keeps and Thiefs cant” but what you are failing to realize is ANET doesn’t balance 1 feature of a class directly against 1 feature of another class. They balance entire classes against each other.

So lets turn this around. Lets say its my massive zerg in front of the Thief’s gate. Well the thief can just stealth and run through the zerg and likely make it, because any damage done to you will be by complete accident, and if you didnt walk around the AOE on the gate thats your own fault.

Now lets look at ele. Hmm there is a massive zerg on the gate? well I guess i can use mist form and get half way through the zerg followed by a dodge roll and then maybe get lucky and get inside. But for that whole time I AM COMPLETELY VISIBLE and people are free to target me. So i get downed and then use vapor form and I’m inside. phew.

Look at that, we both got inside the keep. Except for the thief it took way less effort and less risk.

This shouldn’t be about comparing downed skills to other classes downed skills. The classes aren’t balanced that way.

I didn’t turn this into a “Elementalist vs Thieves, Warriors, Gaurdians” ect thread, the Elementalist in this thread who couldn’t come up with a convincing argument as to why you can suicide and vapor form back into a tower did.

Also, after reading your post, I’m just going to assume you don’t play your class and are unaware of your how your class works so let me teach you how to play it.

Mist Form: Three seconds of invulnerability (Grants you immunity to damage if you don’t understand what that means.)

Hide in Shadows: Three seconds of stealth. Continue to take damage.

So your argument falls short.

Since people like yourself keep turning this into a Thieves vs Elementalist argument, I’ll be more than happy to educate you on both your class and my own.

It’s not a suicide run. The elementalist used his downed state intelligently to be a minor annoyance to your zerg that would otherwise flatten him in seconds without a single bit of skill on your part.

It’s not suicide if the elementalist doesn’t get killed. It’s just outplaying you.

Ehecatl.9172:

It’s not a suicide run. The elementalist used his downed state intelligently to be a minor annoyance to your zerg that would otherwise flatten him in seconds without a single bit of skill on your part.

It’s not suicide if the elementalist doesn’t get killed. It’s just outplaying you.

This is exactly why this needs to change. You guys rely on so many crutches, like being able to get yourself killed and vapor form to safety, that you never learn how to play your classes correctly.

That and you fool yourselves into thinking it takes skill.

Yuujin.1067:

Ehecatl.9172:

It’s not a suicide run. The elementalist used his downed state intelligently to be a minor annoyance to your zerg that would otherwise flatten him in seconds without a single bit of skill on your part.

It’s not suicide if the elementalist doesn’t get killed. It’s just outplaying you.

This is exactly why this needs to change. You guys rely on so many crutches, like being able to get yourself killed and vapor form to safety, that you never learn how to play your classes correctly.

That and you fool yourselves into thinking it takes skill.

So you’ve basically admitted you’re trolling us then. Seeing as you’re discrediting everyone who’s proposed the counters to stop this from happening by saying you shouldn’t HAVE to bring counters to stop someone from doing something, which is a pretty big hole in your argument considering I have to bring Mist Form to stop the likes of you from three shotting me every time I wander away from my zerg. Just insulted me and everyone who plays an elementalist by saying we don’t know how to play our class because elementalist is just SO cheap and full of cheesey tactics that make the game a piece of cake.

There is no further need for discussion.

You guys are still arguing with this terribad thief? Let this thread die already.

Ehecatl.9172:

Yuujin.1067:

Ehecatl.9172:

It’s not a suicide run. The elementalist used his downed state intelligently to be a minor annoyance to your zerg that would otherwise flatten him in seconds without a single bit of skill on your part.

It’s not suicide if the elementalist doesn’t get killed. It’s just outplaying you.

This is exactly why this needs to change. You guys rely on so many crutches, like being able to get yourself killed and vapor form to safety, that you never learn how to play your classes correctly.

That and you fool yourselves into thinking it takes skill.

So you’ve basically admitted you’re trolling us then. Seeing as you’re discrediting everyone who’s proposed the counters to stop this from happening by saying you shouldn’t HAVE to bring counters to stop someone from doing something, which is a pretty big hole in your argument considering I have to bring Mist Form to stop the likes of you from three shotting me every time I wander away from my zerg. Just insulted me and everyone who plays an elementalist by saying we don’t know how to play our class because elementalist is just SO cheap and full of cheesey tactics that make the game a piece of cake.

There is no further need for discussion.

The counter of pulling an Elementalist away from the portal after it lands on the ground before killing it? To counter you dying and pressing 2?

I mean, we’ve already established that they can immediately Vapor Form upon death and float back inside so the idea of ‘countering it while they are downed with immobilize’ was just an attempt to justify the action by saying there was actually a way to counter it after they died.

So after establishing that the above counter was just a lie (Or the people proposing it don’t know how there class works which is equally likely) you just toss out and even more ludicrous suggestion?

And I’m the troll here.

Mesiphidon.8324:

You guys are still arguing with this terribad thief? Let this thread die already.

Don’t jump to conclusions. If you’ve been keeping up you’d know I understand the mechanics of the Elementalist class better than most the people posting in this thread.

As much as I love getting to towers from downed mist form, I gotta agree with the op. Eles shouldn’t have that privilege while the rest of the professions don’t have it.

Yuujin.1067:

Ehecatl.9172:

Yuujin.1067:

Ehecatl.9172:

It’s not a suicide run. The elementalist used his downed state intelligently to be a minor annoyance to your zerg that would otherwise flatten him in seconds without a single bit of skill on your part.

It’s not suicide if the elementalist doesn’t get killed. It’s just outplaying you.

This is exactly why this needs to change. You guys rely on so many crutches, like being able to get yourself killed and vapor form to safety, that you never learn how to play your classes correctly.

That and you fool yourselves into thinking it takes skill.

So you’ve basically admitted you’re trolling us then. Seeing as you’re discrediting everyone who’s proposed the counters to stop this from happening by saying you shouldn’t HAVE to bring counters to stop someone from doing something, which is a pretty big hole in your argument considering I have to bring Mist Form to stop the likes of you from three shotting me every time I wander away from my zerg. Just insulted me and everyone who plays an elementalist by saying we don’t know how to play our class because elementalist is just SO cheap and full of cheesey tactics that make the game a piece of cake.

There is no further need for discussion.

The counter of pulling an Elementalist away from the portal after it lands on the ground before killing it? To counter you dying and pressing 2?

I mean, we’ve already established that they can immediately Vapor Form upon death and float back inside so the idea of ‘countering it while they are downed with immobilize’ was just an attempt to justify the action by saying there was actually a way to counter it after they died.

So after establishing that the above counter was just a lie (Or the people proposing it don’t know how there class works which is equally likely) you just toss out and even more ludicrous suggestion?

And I’m the troll here.

Aaand what about pulling the ele further away from the door BEFORE he goes down? What about putting a guardian bubble block in front of the door? Or hitting him with fear so he runs away from the door before going down?

Even if we run with the premise that immobilize goes away when downed, which a few here and noted it does not (Haven’t verified either way myself), there are ways to deal with it. And the amount of damage a lone ele can do to a zerg is trivial at best. Just break into the fort and kill him if your entire zerg is utterly without the capacity to figure out a way to deal with it.

I never use this tactic myself as my internet latency means I can’t move at all in vapour form (I move on my screen but the game recognizes that I didn’t leave my original position) so this effects me not in the least. It’s still a silly thing to be complaining about.

And that is the last I’ll be saying on the matter.

LightningBlaze.4913:

As much as I love getting to towers from downed mist form, I gotta agree with the op. Eles shouldn’t have that privilege while the rest of the professions don’t have it.

Every class can do things other classes cannot. Stop trying to homogenize the game. This isn’t game breaking, it’s not a big deal. Ele’s have a slight advantage when fighting near a tower they control… get over it.

Ehecatl.9172:

Yuujin.1067:

Ehecatl.9172:

Yuujin.1067:

Ehecatl.9172:

It’s not a suicide run. The elementalist used his downed state intelligently to be a minor annoyance to your zerg that would otherwise flatten him in seconds without a single bit of skill on your part.

It’s not suicide if the elementalist doesn’t get killed. It’s just outplaying you.

This is exactly why this needs to change. You guys rely on so many crutches, like being able to get yourself killed and vapor form to safety, that you never learn how to play your classes correctly.

That and you fool yourselves into thinking it takes skill.

So you’ve basically admitted you’re trolling us then. Seeing as you’re discrediting everyone who’s proposed the counters to stop this from happening by saying you shouldn’t HAVE to bring counters to stop someone from doing something, which is a pretty big hole in your argument considering I have to bring Mist Form to stop the likes of you from three shotting me every time I wander away from my zerg. Just insulted me and everyone who plays an elementalist by saying we don’t know how to play our class because elementalist is just SO cheap and full of cheesey tactics that make the game a piece of cake.

There is no further need for discussion.

The counter of pulling an Elementalist away from the portal after it lands on the ground before killing it? To counter you dying and pressing 2?

I mean, we’ve already established that they can immediately Vapor Form upon death and float back inside so the idea of ‘countering it while they are downed with immobilize’ was just an attempt to justify the action by saying there was actually a way to counter it after they died.

So after establishing that the above counter was just a lie (Or the people proposing it don’t know how there class works which is equally likely) you just toss out and even more ludicrous suggestion?

And I’m the troll here.

Aaand what about pulling the ele further away from the door BEFORE he goes down? What about putting a guardian bubble block in front of the door? Or hitting him with fear so he runs away from the door before going down?

Even if we run with the premise that immobilize goes away when downed, which a few here and noted it does not (Haven’t verified either way myself), there are ways to deal with it. And the amount of damage a lone ele can do to a zerg is trivial at best. Just break into the fort and kill him if your entire zerg is utterly without the capacity to figure out a way to deal with it.

I never use this tactic myself as my internet latency means I can’t move at all in vapour form (I move on my screen but the game recognizes that I didn’t leave my original position) so this effects me not in the least. It’s still a silly thing to be complaining about.

And that is the last I’ll be saying on the matter.

Good. As much as I enjoy watching you defend the tactic of pressing 2 and entering a portal and trying to pretend it takes skill and therefore should require all the things you listed to counter, it is really starting to get sad.

Its simple really. You either make all classes have the same downed skills and get a variant of World of Homogenizecraft or you keep things unique and stop crying.

Thieves can stealth stomp warriors without any retaliation from him. They can even teleport stomp mesmers if they time the stomp and shadowstep since SS does not stop the stomp. Do you see us making threads about this??

If you keep making threads about unique mechanics, you will have a game where we all have 1 skill when downed (bandage) and mesmers have no illusions, thieves have no stealth, guardians have no books, warriors have no burst and ofc ele has no mistform
:-)

As someone who played ~1000 hours Mesmer and with my highest Ele being lvl27, I see no problem with this.

Is it highly unique? Yes! Good!
Is it really powerful? Yes! Even better!
Does it ultimately hurt anybody? Unless we see zergs of 50+ Eles doing this in concert, no.

So it’s really no big deal. It’s like me being able to reflect projectiles, Elementalists can harass for brief moments in keep fights.

So what? Poses no balance issues really.

Carighan.6758:

As someone who played ~1000 hours Mesmer and with my highest Ele being lvl27, I see no problem with this.

Is it highly unique? Yes! Good!
Is it really powerful? Yes! Even better!
Does it ultimately hurt anybody? Unless we see zergs of 50+ Eles doing this in concert, no.

So it’s really no big deal. It’s like me being able to reflect projectiles, Elementalists can harass for brief moments in keep fights.

So what? Poses no balance issues really.

Imagining a scenario with a 50+ zerg of any class can be scary.
50 Feedback bubbles covering another zerg?
50 Engis laying a ton of turrets/mines?
50 Necros showeing the map with marks?

See what I mean? :P

is it really that hard to immobilize them? I’m sorry for people who are mad that they have to do more then spam random skills till the ele dies. Also, if your in a zerg fight who the hell cares if an ele jumps down into the zerg outside the door. What are they gonna do? cast some kinda instant mega nuke before 2-3 peoples one shot their squishy bodies? sounds more like a suicide jump to me.

Also if they are doing thakittens wasting their time being downed and also other players trying to rez them when they could be attacking.

Demon.5082:

Its simple really. You either make all classes have the same downed skills and get a variant of World of Homogenizecraft or you keep things unique and stop crying.

Thieves can stealth stomp warriors without any retaliation from him. They can even teleport stomp mesmers if they time the stomp and shadowstep since SS does not stop the stomp. Do you see us making threads about this??

If you keep making threads about unique mechanics, you will have a game where we all have 1 skill when downed (bandage) and mesmers have no illusions, thieves have no stealth, guardians have no books, warriors have no burst and ofc ele has no mistform
:-)

The homogenizing argument is cute but not applicable. Vapor Form gives Elementalist 3 seconds of invulnerability and allows them to move during that time. That is the benefit it gives you that is completely special and unique to Elementalist.

This appears to be the ‘new’ argument. It is not going to cut it. It is simply not the case.

Chaotic Storm.2815:

is it really that hard to immobilize them? I’m sorry for people who are mad that they have to do more then spam random skills till the ele dies. Also, if your in a zerg fight who the hell cares if an ele jumps down into the zerg outside the door. What are they gonna do? cast some kinda instant mega nuke before 2-3 peoples one shot their squishy bodies? sounds more like a suicide jump to me.

Also if they are doing thakittens wasting their time being downed and also other players trying to rez them when they could be attacking.

Someone didn’t read the whole thread before posting!

Conditions fall off upon death.

Vapor Form is available immediately upon dying.

You are granted invulnerability during the transition time between being reduced to 0HP and entering the downed state.

It is not a case of it being ‘hard.’ It is a case of it being impossible.

Against large siege groups a single Elementalist is entirely ineffective. Against a smaller siege group of 10 or so people attacking a gate, a single Elementalist is capable of dealing damage and causing a great deal of disruption with no risk of dying.

I could drop down, switch to Earth form, and activate Earthquake for the knockdown, then use my Glyph of Storms to create a sandstorm, blinding everyone in the area, preventing them from being able to attack the gate and myself every three seconds. I could also activate my Armor of Earth to grant me stability and protection while I got to town on the siege. Under normal circumstances, after executing this crazy combo, I would have to flee to avoid getting thrown into my downstate and then dying.

Given that I actually want to be downed for the invulnerability I get from Vapor Form, I can keep attacking the siege until go down.

This is just one example, maybe not even the most effective example, of how one person can very easily abuse this mechanic.

You see, skill would be if I was able to pull this all off or something similar to it and survive.

Cheese is being able to cause this much disruption indefinitely so long as my cooldowns come off.

In this situation Armor of Earth was my longest utility cooldown. That’s all right though, I can do one of these drop ins without it.

^^^^
L2p issue……

An elementalist attempting what you say should seriously learn how his profession works and not trying tactics that in game are useless…the door is down way before you did 1/20 hp to ram.

And you are Always downed or waiting CDS…..
2nd time you attempt that you are dead if your opponents are not extremely “unexperienced”

And ALSO only class efficient at that is WARRIOR and not ele.

I won t get in details just there s a reason why eles switch to staff for defending OR dps from behind the door.

Also Arrow cart…..

P.S: vapor form has a CD

This is definitely a L2P issue on your part if you have so much trouble stopping an ele from using mist form once they go down. I’ve never had any problem immobilizing an ele right next to their door, stopping them from going in and spiking them. its pretty satisfying actually stopping them just inches from the doorway and killing them. You must have pretty slow reaction times if you can’t manage to do something so simple. No wonder you main easy mode thief.

Yuujin.1067:

This is just one example, maybe not even the most effective example, of how one person can very easily abuse this mechanic.

Yes, and thieves get to abuse their stealth to roam in the open with near-total impunity. I pretty much only die in WvW as my thief when I try to do something stupid (and I know going in that what I’m doing is stupidly risky, but I feel like trying it for funsies). If I ever get in trouble, I just stealth and shadowstep away.

You’re right that Vapor Form lacks counterplay if you fight near a tower or portal. However, there’s not a whole lot you can do to catch a thief who doesn’t want to be caught anywhere on the map. GW2 isn’t fundamentally a game based around counterplay. It’s about being able to do BS things to each other but then having ways to recover quickly.

For example, you mentioned that the Ele can dart out, deal a bunch of damage to people attacking the gate, and then Vapor Form back to safety. They can also just throw damage spells onto the inside of the gate and it’ll still hit the Flame Rams and anyone attacking the door in melee. Everyone can do this. Thieves are actually really good at it with Shortbow #2 and 4. Nothing the people attacking the door can do to stop something like that. They just have to heal through it, or back off and attack at range. That’s the kind of game this is: sometimes, there’s nothing you can do to prevent your opponent from doing what they want.

Demon.5082:

Its simple really. You either make all classes have the same downed skills and get a variant of World of Homogenizecraft or you keep things unique and stop crying.

Thieves can stealth stomp warriors without any retaliation from him. They can even teleport stomp mesmers if they time the stomp and shadowstep since SS does not stop the stomp. Do you see us making threads about this??

If you keep making threads about unique mechanics, you will have a game where we all have 1 skill when downed (bandage) and mesmers have no illusions, thieves have no stealth, guardians have no books, warriors have no burst and ofc ele has no mistform
:-)

It’s simple, you give all professions cloacking as defensive mechanism, and stealth stomping should also be granted to all profession or removed, cause it takes no skill.

Hurts doesnt it?

Having played 7/8 80 profession in pve for a large amount of time (wvw more playtime), i say the downed state are better balanced then most people think. Only a few could use a boost (like fix necro 1/3 hp downed bug, and either boost damage or leaching on first downed.

If you think it’s unfair play ele or learn to play. I hate stealth stomping. I could make a whole thread about how overpowered it is, because only thiefs have it and it takes no skill. But what will that get me? I really hope Arenanet is smarter then listening to this.

Class balance incorporates TRAIT, skills, armor/hp, and downed state.

And lastly @ Anet (if they are reading this), the more you nerf, the more stuff you remove from the game. The more you take from the game, the more boring it becomes. Confusion mesmer is nerfed making condition mesmer sort of pointless. You removed a viable build from the game. And as a result you made mesmer more boring.

So don’t listen to this please.

It’s part of why wvw is so much fun. Because if you have some luck and skill, you might get past a zerg, enter a tower safely and defend it all you can. It gives you a kick that you just got past a crapload of people alive, and are still in the run for defending the tower. Some people have good alive skills to do it (thiefs), others have it in downed state (Ele).

A thief can keep getting into the tower unseen without much effort. An Ele can do it from downed state (wich is worse you first gotta bandage or get a ress, wich means slowing down a lot!). I think it’s pretty balanced.

Brb im gonna go make a thread in the thief forum that says:

“Please Anet, don’t let thiefs stealth when they have under 25% hp. I want free kills and when i go to down them they stealth and then I gotta work for it and find them. Instead, it would be good if they suddenly couldn’t stealth, and maybe were also knocked prone and immobilized.”

Sound good?

Phoebe Ascension.8437:

It’s simple, you give all professions cloacking as defensive mechanism, and stealth stomping should also be granted to all profession or removed, cause it takes no skill.

Hurts doesnt it?

Having played 7/8 80 profession in pve for a large amount of time (wvw more playtime), i say the downed state are better balanced then most people think. Only a few could use a boost (like fix necro 1/3 hp downed bug, and either boost damage or leaching on first downed.

If you think it’s unfair play ele or learn to play. I hate stealth stomping. I could make a whole thread about how overpowered it is, because only thiefs have it and it takes no skill. But what will that get me? I really hope Arenanet is smarter then listening to this.

Class balance incorporates TRAIT, skills, armor/hp, and downed state.

And lastly @ Anet (if they are reading this), the more you nerf, the more stuff you remove from the game. The more you take from the game, the more boring it becomes. Confusion mesmer is nerfed making condition mesmer sort of pointless. You removed a viable build from the game. And as a result you made mesmer more boring.

So don’t listen to this please.

It’s part of why wvw is so much fun. Because if you have some luck and skill, you might get past a zerg, enter a tower safely and defend it all you can. It gives you a kick that you just got past a crapload of people alive, and are still in the run for defending the tower. Some people have good alive skills to do it (thiefs), others have it in downed state (Ele).

A thief can keep getting into the tower unseen without much effort. An Ele can do it from downed state (wich is worse you first gotta bandage or get a ress, wich means slowing down a lot!). I think it’s pretty balanced.

You quoted me and basically repeated my point :-/

That is what I meant, downed states are unique to each class and therefore balanced. My post was completely sarcastic directed at the “thief” cyring about our mechanics when as pointed out, they are close to complete dominance while roaming in WvWvW.

Yuujin.1067:

The homogenizing argument is cute but not applicable. Vapor Form gives Elementalist 3 seconds of invulnerability and allows them to move during that time. That is the benefit it gives you that is completely special and unique to Elementalist.

So?? High uptimes of stealth and near invincible roaming capability is unique to the Thief. Do we take that away as well?

Do you know how hard an elementalist gets hit by a good GC thief? You should not lose focus for even a second or you are face down on the ground.

There is a reason your getting such a negative response in this forum for your complaint, its because vapor form is one of the few “invincible” perks that elementalists enjoy (most of the others have been nerfed to oblivion already).

Mesmers can cause all sorts of chaos with portals. Every class needs to have a gimmic or else your just playing a bland game. Good players will use/abuse that gimmic and be seen as “overpowered”.

Demon.5082:

Yuujin.1067:

The homogenizing argument is cute but not applicable. Vapor Form gives Elementalist 3 seconds of invulnerability and allows them to move during that time. That is the benefit it gives you that is completely special and unique to Elementalist.

So?? High uptimes of stealth and near invincible roaming capability is unique to the Thief. Do we take that away as well?

Do you know how hard an elementalist gets hit by a good GC thief? You should not lose focus for even a second or you are face down on the ground.

There is a reason your getting such a negative response in this forum for your complaint, its because vapor form is one of the few “invincible” perks that elementalists enjoy (most of the others have been nerfed to oblivion already).

Mesmers can cause all sorts of chaos with portals. Every class needs to have a gimmic or else your just playing a bland game. Good players will use/abuse that gimmic and be seen as “overpowered”.

no offense, you are defending a cowardly hit and run tactic with ele

i guess elemental class description is hit and run away

there are much larger problem with wvwvw like the broken line of sight

i usually spend my time trolling roaming theivies

Time to teach Elementalits about their class mechanics again! Shame I have to repeat myself again but reading doesn’t seem to be a lot of your strong suit.

Immobilize the Elementalist: This has already been debunked. Conditions clear as soon as you are downed. You are given a moment of invulnerability between reaching 0HP and having your first two downed skills become available. Vapor Form becomes available IMMEDIATELY upon being downed because it is your 2 skill.

Please keep your complaints about stealth out of this thread. This discussion is about how Elementalsit can allow themselves to be downed right outside of their portal and then use Vapor Form to guarantee that they survive.

If you are having trouble with roaming stealth thieves, feel free to PM me for some advice on how to stop them but let’s stay on topic.

Is an ele dropping a couple skills on you before he gets blown over by a wave of aoe and vapor forms back into the keep game changing? I know it’s not because I play ele. Vapor form is next to useless in every other setting, just putting off the inevitable like 75% of the time. Is it really worth 3 pages of complaining?

They see him trollin’, they hatin’ :P

Yuujin, explain to me why an Ele dashing out, getting downed, and Vapor Forming to safety is substantially better than anyone else throwing AoEs at the inside of a gate, or manning an AC.

It must be pretty game changing! People are defending it like it is a core Elementalist mechanic!

Surviving and mitigating damage is kinda the elementalists mechanic if you didnt notice.

Ptolomy.6984:

Surviving and mitigating damage is kinda the elementalists mechanic if you didnt notice.

The mechanic in this situation is Vapor Forming through portals.

What you described is something every profession strives to do.

Except we have to sacrifice almost everything to barely survive while other classes have more breathing room. Lowest armor and health and on top no class mechanic like clones or stealth to break target or confuse foes. Our survivability comes from our gear and some skills of which most are situational. When the situation arises we shine else were doomed. Now dont come tell me that’s unfair that we can vaporform through portals.

Stop bumping the troll thread.

Yuujin.1067:

It must be pretty game changing! People are defending it like it is a core Elementalist mechanic!

i find class forums quite strange. They defend bad mechanics as if they are design with it in mind.

I rather have anet fix LOS while defending so elementalist will not need to resort to this tactic anymore

Ptolomy.6984:

Except we have to sacrifice almost everything to barely survive while other classes have more breathing room. Lowest armor and health and on top no class mechanic like clones or stealth to break target or confuse foes. Our survivability comes from our gear and some skills of which most are situational. When the situation arises we shine else were doomed. Now dont come tell me that’s unfair that we can vaporform through portals.

You don’t actually have to sacrifice anything in this situation. You just have to get downed in front of a building you own and you can safely float inside.

Your spec does not impact your ability to use your 2 in downed state. You can spec however you’d like!

Please stay on topic. As I’ve said before, this is not an issue about how OP or UP Elementalist are. This is a thread about their ability to Vapor Form through portals.

Yuujin.1067:

Time to teach Elementalits about their class mechanics again! Shame I have to repeat myself again but reading doesn’t seem to be a lot of your strong suit.

Immobilize the Elementalist: This has already been debunked. Conditions clear as soon as you are downed. You are given a moment of invulnerability between reaching 0HP and having your first two downed skills become available. Vapor Form becomes available IMMEDIATELY upon being downed because it is your 2 skill.

Please keep your complaints about stealth out of this thread. This discussion is about how Elementalsit can allow themselves to be downed right outside of their portal and then use Vapor Form to guarantee that they survive.

If you are having trouble with roaming stealth thieves, feel free to PM me for some advice on how to stop them but let’s stay on topic.

sorry if yuo can only think of immobilze to counter the eles viper from then your bad as far as i know you can also use guardian bubble, line of warding , ring of warding from a guardian and thats just the once i know off as i have done it.

yes vaporing back is strong for harrasing close to a tower but its a perk that the ele has same as th thief has hes stealth and how he uses it and the mesmers and hes portals and so on, its one of the few things the ele has with 2 extra weapon sets to, gessing its the eles perks.
in downed state there is the thief having cripple, the mesmer haveing confusion, the guradian haveing a aoe heal, the ranger haveing a extra person to heal him(pet). all has something

For the love of Melandru… This is not a discussion that should nerf the elementalist profession. Understand that. This is a discussion whether or not elementalists and warriors should be able to enter a fort in down state! God… Keep to the topic.

Korsbaek.9803:

Yuujin.1067:

Time to teach Elementalits about their class mechanics again! Shame I have to repeat myself again but reading doesn’t seem to be a lot of your strong suit.

Immobilize the Elementalist: This has already been debunked. Conditions clear as soon as you are downed. You are given a moment of invulnerability between reaching 0HP and having your first two downed skills become available. Vapor Form becomes available IMMEDIATELY upon being downed because it is your 2 skill.

Please keep your complaints about stealth out of this thread. This discussion is about how Elementalsit can allow themselves to be downed right outside of their portal and then use Vapor Form to guarantee that they survive.

If you are having trouble with roaming stealth thieves, feel free to PM me for some advice on how to stop them but let’s stay on topic.

sorry if yuo can only think of immobilze to counter the eles viper from then your bad as far as i know you can also use guardian bubble, line of warding , ring of warding from a guardian and thats just the once i know off as i have done it.

yes vaporing back is strong for harrasing close to a tower but its a perk that the ele has same as th thief has hes stealth and how he uses it and the mesmers and hes portals and so on, its one of the few things the ele has with 2 extra weapon sets to, gessing its the eles perks.
in downed state there is the thief having cripple, the mesmer haveing confusion, the guradian haveing a aoe heal, the ranger haveing a extra person to heal him(pet). all has something

On topic: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Best-Part-About-Guardian-in-WvWvW/first#post1748595

Given that you guys provided incorrect information about being able to immobilize it is only fair that we present the possibility that you are wrong/lying about this too.

No one is suggesting Vapor Form be removed. (If you read the thread, you would know that.) It is being suggested that Vapor Form not allow players to pass through portals. You would still retain your special three second invulnerability skill that lets you re-position yourself.

Yuujin.1067:

It must be pretty game changing! People are defending it like it is a core Elementalist mechanic!

I find this argument unconvincing. People will talk about any old thing, doesn’t mean it’s important. So, give me a better argument.

Yuujin.1067:

There is no skill involved in hitting Vapor Form and running through a portal yet people are expected to have to save and time their immoblizes or coordinate with people who have them to prevent elementalist from using this skill less, cheesy tactic.

I dont see what is so hard about doing this. Timing your skills to your best advantage seems pretty reasonable, unless you just want mindlessly attack and expect to roflstomp everyone.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Yuujin.1067:

It must be pretty game changing! People are defending it like it is a core Elementalist mechanic!

I find this argument unconvincing. People will talk about any old thing, doesn’t mean it’s important. So, give me a better argument.

I already provided you with an example of how you can abuse this tactic with success. You decided to discredit it. There is no example I can give you that is going to make you go “Oh, okay, I see your point” so it’s a waste of time. I can answer a few of your questions though.

1) An AC has to be available.
2) AEing through the wall is effective in some but not all situations.
3) Members of the attacking force will detarget the gate and attempt to DPS you which pulls damage off the gate when you are physically present. If you are hiding behind the gate, that won’t happen so DPS on the gate won’t be slowed.

Tierdal.6231:

Yuujin.1067:

There is no skill involved in hitting Vapor Form and running through a portal yet people are expected to have to save and time their immoblizes or coordinate with people who have them to prevent elementalist from using this skill less, cheesy tactic.

I dont see what is so hard about doing this. Timing your skills to your best advantage seems pretty reasonable, unless you just want mindlessly attack and expect to roflstomp everyone.

You must have stopped reading after that post. You can’t immobilize an Elementalist before they activate their Vapor Form due to conditions dropping off upon death and Vapor Form being available immediately before someone can deal damage to you.

Yuujin.1067:

I already provided you with an example of how you can abuse this tactic with success.

You provided an example of use of this tactic. What you haven’t done is show why this tactic is particularly superior to other tactics available more widely in similar situations, nor why this tactic is “abuse” in any meaningful pejorative sense of the word.

Yuujin.1067:

1) An AC has to be available.
2) AEing through the wall is effective in some but not all situations.
3) Members of the attacking force will detarget the gate and attempt to DPS you which pulls damage off the gate when you are physically present. If you are hiding behind the gate, that won’t happen so DPS on the gate won’t be slowed.

1) Anyone can carry an AC blueprint and it only takes 30 supply, which a keep will have if it’s defensible at all. Heck, I have about a dozen AC blueprints kicking around my bank that I’ve gotten just by playing WvW. That AC will hit substantially harder than the Ele’s spells could and it’ll hit way more people in a much larger AoE too. It’s also consistent DPS, whereas an Ele relying on Vapor Form for safety usually has to then res himself.

2) Vapor-Form-trolling is also effective in some but not all situations. That Ele can troll as hard as he wants, but he’s still not going to push off a zerg all by himself. Meanwhile, if he’d equipped a staff and thrown stuff at the inside of the door or from the wall, he would’ve tossed out a lot more damage.

3) Yup, and you can do this too by hopping up onto the wall. Ele’s are hardly the only profession who can present themselves as an alternate target. Popping out of the tower isn’t even necessarily going to distract too many people since you’ll still be getting splashed by AoEs targeted on the gate.

Now, as I said earlier, I think way too much of the Ele’s downed-state power budget is in their #2. Their #1 straight-up sucks and most other professions can make use of their #3 spell to actually rally on occasion, but not the Ele. I wouldn’t mind seeing some nerfs on Vapor Form if #s 1 and 3 were made less than totally useless. But at the moment, they can’t stand straight nerfs or they’ll just never ever rally once downed in any situations.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Yuujin.1067:

I already provided you with an example of how you can abuse this tactic with success.

You provided an example of use of this tactic. What you haven’t done is show why this tactic is particularly superior to other tactics available more widely in similar situations, not why this tactic is “abuse.”

Yuujin.1067:

1) An AC has to be available.
2) AEing through the wall is effective in some but not all situations.
3) Members of the attacking force will detarget the gate and attempt to DPS you which pulls damage off the gate when you are physically present. If you are hiding behind the gate, that won’t happen so DPS on the gate won’t be slowed.

1) Anyone can carry an AC blueprint and it only takes 30 supply, which a keep will have if it’s defensible at all. That AC will hit substantially harder than the Ele’s spells could and it’ll hit way more people in a much larger AoE too. It’s also consistent DPS, whereas an Ele relying on Vapor Form for safety usually has to then res himself.

2) Vapor-Form-trolling is also effective in some but not all situations. That Ele can troll as hard as he wants, but he’s still not going to push off a zerg all by himself. Meanwhile, if he’d equipped a staff and thrown stuff at the inside of the door or from the wall, he would’ve tossed out a lot more damage.

3) Yup, and you can do this too by hopping up onto the wall. Ele’s are hardly the only profession who can present themselves as an alternate target. Popping out of the tower isn’t even necessarily going to distract too many people since you’ll still be getting splashed by AoEs targeted on the gate.

Now, as I said earlier, I think way too much of the Ele’s downed-state power budget is in their #2. Their #1 straight-up sucks and most other professions can make use of their #3 spell to actually rally on occasion, but not the Ele. I wouldn’t mind seeing some nerfs on Vapor Form if #s 1 and 3 were made less than totally useless. But at the moment, they can’t stand straight nerfs or they’ll just never ever rally once downed in any situations.

This is exactly what I mean. It is absolutely a waste of time to try to argue over on situation where this is better. However, I’d like to thank you for making my point for me.

In the situation of an arrow cart, you’ve made my point for me. You need to have the blueprint and three people with 10 supplies or two people with 15 a piece of complete it. In a situation where these conditions are not met, the aforementioned tactic is 100% more effective.

In your third example, you pointed out that he could jump up on the wall. This cheesy tactic actually extends to that as well. For any other profession being pulled off the wall and thrown into your downstate is a death sentence. For an Elementalist, they can Vapor Form through their portal back to safety.

Before someone points out that they have to be close to the portal so if they are positioned some place else it won’t work, I just want to point out that you don’t ignore issues like these because the lowest common denominator does not know how to properly abuse it, you address issues like these because skilled players can make the most of them.

Yuujin.1067:

This is exactly what I mean. It is absolutely a waste of time to try to argue over on situation where this is better. However, I’d like to thank you for making my point for me.

Excuse me, what point were you trying to make? That there are alternate tactics that are so obviously superior to Vapor-Form trolling that there’s no point in arguing about it?

Yuujin.1067:

In the situation of an arrow cart, you’ve made my point for me. You need to have the blueprint and three people with 10 supplies or two people with 15 a piece of complete it. In a situation where these conditions are not met, the aforementioned tactic is 100% more effective.

Or one person with 10 supply and 20 in the tower. If the tower has no supply, no single person is going to be able to hold it against a zerg for any appreciable amount of time regardless of tactics.

Yuujin.1067:

In your third example, you pointed out that he could jump up on the wall. This cheesy tactic actually extends to that as well. For any other profession being pulled off the wall and thrown into your downstate is a death sentence. For an Elementalist, they can Vapor Form through their portal back to safety.

Guardians and Engineers are actually pretty fine with that sort of thing as well. Even Thieves can do this with stealth (for example, their falling damage trait stealths them when they fall, making it pretty darn easy to Infiltrator’s Arrow back to the portal and roll through). Mesmers have it about 50/50, depending on how many people are there. My ranger has little trouble getting to safety most of the time.

Of course, you could also avoid the danger of pulls entirely by simply standing behind the lip.

I’m not saying this isn’t a strength that Eles have. I’m saying it’s not an overwhelming advantage.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Yuujin.1067:

This is exactly what I mean. It is absolutely a waste of time to try to argue over on situation where this is better. However, I’d like to thank you for making my point for me.

Excuse me, what point were you trying to make? That there are alternate tactics that are so obviously superior to Vapor-Form trolling that there’s no point in arguing about it?

Yuujin.1067:

In the situation of an arrow cart, you’ve made my point for me. You need to have the blueprint and three people with 10 supplies or two people with 15 a piece of complete it. In a situation where these conditions are not met, the aforementioned tactic is 100% more effective.

Or one person with 10 supply and 20 in the tower. If the tower has no supply, no single person is going to be able to hold it against a zerg for any appreciable amount of time regardless of tactics.

Yuujin.1067:

In your third example, you pointed out that he could jump up on the wall. This cheesy tactic actually extends to that as well. For any other profession being pulled off the wall and thrown into your downstate is a death sentence. For an Elementalist, they can Vapor Form through their portal back to safety.

Guardians and Engineers are actually pretty fine with that sort of thing as well. Even Thieves can do this with stealth (for example, their falling damage trait stealths them when they fall, making it pretty darn easy to Infiltrator’s Arrow back to the portal and roll through). Mesmers have it about 50/50, depending on how many people are there. My ranger has little trouble getting to safety most of the time.

Of course, you could also avoid the danger of pulls entirely by simply standing behind the lip.

I’m not saying this isn’t a strength that Eles have. I’m saying it’s not an overwhelming advantage.

All completely conditional, where as to execute Vapor Form strategies you need only be an Elementalist in a downed state. That’s my point. If there was some sort of weapon layout, utility, or event a trait that was necessary to pull this off, it wouldn’t be so easily exploitable, but it is available to everyone immediately upon dying.

In point three, it really comes down to the right utility. If a warrior and engineer aren’t built for surviability, they have to pop their invulnerability utility and make it back to the portal. If a Thief is specced with the fall releases blinding powder, then they can stealth the whole way back to a portal. Stealth however does not nullify damage. If you do not have the utility to pull it off or the traits however, once you go down you are dead.

For an Elementalist, once you go down you get a get out of jail free card.

I’m not sure why we’re arguing this though. You’ve acknowledged other classes have to have the right utility and traits to pull this tactic off but Elementalist just need to die to make it back inside safely.

That isn’t enough evidence that maybe Vapor Form shouldn’t be usable to pass through portals?

reason why eles and warriors can run thru portal in down state is actually quite simple.
we don’t TELEPORT ourselves to another location like a thief. we assume a WALKING form/state that gives us the same abilities as its counterpart(warrior can run around and fight as he normally would. ele can run in mist form state for 3 sec jus like the cantrip). its completely and utterly fair. each class was given something that they are familiar with in their downed state. necros get fear, leeching and poisons; mesmers get clones confusion and spikes; guardians get their warding type skills; warrior does what he does best, fights till the end throwing hammers and rocks. :V engineer gets their CCs and bombs; ranger has his pets to revive them. thief uses smoke bombs and stealth like he always does and ele gets mist form.

so as you can see it’s completely reasonable. so why front you go enjoy the game instead of complaining and please don’t tell me you can’t because eles use mist form to walk thru a gate. If that’s the case perhaps your not mature enough to be playing this game.

If you cant immobilize an ele after he is downed and before he can vapor form you are just bad. End of discussion. I know for a fact it can be done because I have done it many times with my guardian. As soon as I drop them I hit Chains of Light, they vapor form, float in place without moving, then drop and I spike them. You are just a bad thief who refuses to accept the advice we have given you on how to counter this and instead try to cry for nerfs rather than actually take the advice we have given you on how to stop this. So quit whining and L2P. You easymode thieves just want everything handed to you don’t you?