Guild Wars 2

So, I’ve been thinking as everyone has been asking for buffs, which is totally understandable, there could also be a list of things that should be nerfed. I’m asking for an opinion from people who actually main ele/play ele a lot, to see things from their point of view.

What I think should be nerfed/reworked:

1. Diamond skin. I’m not a fan of this at all, it’s either too strong or completely irrelevant. I do not like how easily it counters condition builds in 1v1 scenario.

2. Stone Heart. Again, this trait just promotes passive play and to gain the most out of it, you would need to be camping earth. I think this is just badly designed trait.

3. Blinding ashes. Another passive that I’m not a fan of. Blind is pretty strong and therefore it should reward a skilled play, not random burn proc you get from another trait.

4. Tempest defense. As much as I love this trait, I think there should be some rework to it, there’s literally no counterplay to it since Shocking aura will proc the stun from basically anything.

5. The buuuuurn. It’s not just ele, it’s all the burn in general, it’s a bit too strong I would say.

So what are things you would nerf/rework if you were on the ele balance team?

Staff ele. It’s one of the easiest builds in the game, and yet it offers the highest DPS. It’s not interesting. Or hell not nerf it and bring other things up to its level. I’m just tired of seeing it sit alone while being extremely boring and simple.

I want Stone Heart to give the Resistance Buff somehow.

Grant Resistance to yourself for 5 seconds if you gain more than 3 conditions on a 15-20s CD?

You mean Diamond Skin? Cause it’s an anti-condition trait while Stone Heart is an anti-direct-damage trait.

Also, I wouldn’t say that Stone Heart is a passive trait. It’s mostly used to stop spikes and it is a conscious decision based only on your cooldowns which you are able to manage.

Laraley.7695:

1. Diamond skin. I’m not a fan of this at all, it’s either too strong or completely irrelevant. I do not like how easily it counters condition builds in 1v1 scenario.

5 seconds of resistance (the same amount of protection you get from Elemental Attunement) upon swapping to Earth Attunement would suffice and also offer counter-play since resistance is a boon which can be stripped and corrupted.

Laraley.7695:

2. Stone Heart. Again, this trait just promotes passive play and to gain the most out of it, you would need to be camping earth. I think this is just badly designed trait.

That is incorrect. This trait promotes active play in swapping to Earth Attunement to avoid the critical damage of a burst.

Laraley.7695:

3. Blinding ashes. Another passive that I’m not a fan of. Blind is pretty strong and therefore it should reward a skilled play, not random burn proc you get from another trait.

Blinding Ashes is not a random proc. The first target you burn every 5 seconds (assuming you hit multiple targets with Drake’s Breath or what have you) will be blinded. Also, this is a grandmaster trait that is garbage in comparison to Mesmer’s blind-on-shatter trait which isn’t a grandmaster trait. What’s more, a Thief without any relative traits can easily blind more reliably as can a Guardian with a sword and greatsword. Sorry, but this trait definitely needs to be buffed.

Laraley.7695:

4. Tempest defense. As much as I love this trait, I think there should be some rework to it, there’s literally no counterplay to it since Shocking aura will proc the stun from basically anything.

No thank you. All other classes have various similar traits as well (some better than others):

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Autodefense_Bomb_Dispenser
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retaliatory_Subconscious
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirror_of_Anguish
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Protection
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shared_Anguish
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hard_to_Catch
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Stand

Laraley.7695:

5. The buuuuurn. It’s not just ele, it’s all the burn in general, it’s a bit too strong I would say.

I agree with this.

Of course it would be ele’s that make a threat about nerfing themselves…

Anyway, my ideas:

1. Diamond Skin: Now grants 2 seconds of resistance upon switching attunements.
2. Stone Heart: this trait is perfectly fine. Eles cannot camp a single attunement, there’s nothing passive about switching to earth when bursted.
3. Blinding Ashes: This trait is underpowered, not overpowerd. Make it’s cooldown per target and it should actually be viable even with 5 seconds cooldown. Blind is the easiest condition to get rid of.
4. Tempest Defense: another perfectly fine trait. Could actually need a little buff.
5. Burning: completely remove burning from Engineers, Necros and Mesmers. Make it an exclusive damaging condition for Eles and Guardians. As long as Necros, Engis and Mesmers can put out almost ALL the damaging conditions on top of burning, while Eles and Guardians have nothing else besides burning (you can’t really stack bleeding as an ele and if you try to you can’t stack burning, both in the same build/ at the same time aren’t possible). As long as this doesn’t change burning can never be balanced. It will either be OP for engi/mesmer/necro and a viable choice for condition builds for Ele/Guard like it is now, or it will be balanced for engi/mes/nec while underpowered for us like it was before the big patch.

This is from a perspective of some1 who plays S/F Fresh air exclusively (Ele is not my main tho):

Prepatch S/F – whilst already being strong at 1v1 – lacked defensive utilities to stay alive in prolonged fights or against any form of sustained builds. With the introduction of Stone Heart (which is by far my favorite trait) and Tempest Defense (which is sorta cheap, but pretty much any class has a trait that prevents 1-shotting, except for thief lol) it’s sustain finally feels onpar with other berserker/marauder builds. (excluding mesmers, as they’re OP for now)

Ultimately, stone heart finally prevents getting outcamped in stealth and moreso getting 1 shot once ur obsiflesh/arcane shield is on CD. Personally I think this trait is good as it is, because earth is already your defensive attunement in which you can’t deal high amounts of damage anyway. It fits in well and allows to stay/fight on point a little longer.

Tempest Defense honestly is just another cheap trait that ANet seems to introduce for every class to “prevent” 1 shotting people. As a thief this trait is ridiculously strong if you don’t proc it before attempting a backstab (especally in conjunction with stone heart). I agree its rather bad game design, but you wouldn’t wanna nerf/remove it when pretty much every other class gets to keep theirs. At this point it probably doesn’t even matter if these traits were made to be baseline…

Diamond Skin / Blinding Ashes: Diamond Skin is pretty much the Ele’s version of the old Automatic Response, which completely shut down condi builds once engi’s reached 25% HP. It’s terrible game design when you can shut down any condi damage just by picking a single trait. Blinding Ashes is yet again hilariously strong against classes that are melee centred of don’t have channeled/multiple hits attacks. I think some people underestimate how strong blind actually is and how frequently ele’s access to burning is. ICD should be somewhere at 8s. min.

All in all, S/F ele finally doesn’t feel like the weaker version of Medi guards anymore, though I’d argue that Medi guard is still the better pick for tPvP.

agreed to the last.
Just: Enginieers and burning fits together.
Burnign stacks to fast from one plaer at the moment. But this is mainly a PvE issue. In PvP you can avoid much by just moving. But i might have a bad perception on that, becaust i use stop,doge,roll from the first second the patch came ^^.

ah a post inbetween … I answered to SchmendrickTheMagician

I too don’t see why Necros and Mesmers need access to burning, seeing as how they get access to almost every other damaging condition each, and Ele only gets bleeds (and poison via Doom.)

OP you should go play ele for like 5 minutes.

Velimere.7685:

Laraley.7695:

1. Diamond skin. I’m not a fan of this at all, it’s either too strong or completely irrelevant. I do not like how easily it counters condition builds in 1v1 scenario.

5 seconds of resistance (the same amount of protection you get from Elemental Attunement) upon swapping to Earth Attunement would suffice and also offer counter-play since resistance is a boon which can be stripped and corrupted.

Laraley.7695:

2. Stone Heart. Again, this trait just promotes passive play and to gain the most out of it, you would need to be camping earth. I think this is just badly designed trait.

That is incorrect. This trait promotes active play in swapping to Earth Attunement to avoid the critical damage of a burst.

Laraley.7695:

3. Blinding ashes. Another passive that I’m not a fan of. Blind is pretty strong and therefore it should reward a skilled play, not random burn proc you get from another trait.

Blinding Ashes is not a random proc. The first target you burn every 5 seconds (assuming you hit multiple targets with Drake’s Breath or what have you) will be blinded. Also, this is a grandmaster trait that is garbage in comparison to Mesmer’s blind-on-shatter trait which isn’t a grandmaster trait. What’s more, a Thief without any relative traits can easily blind more reliably as can a Guardian with a sword and greatsword. Sorry, but this trait definitely needs to be buffed.

Laraley.7695:

4. Tempest defense. As much as I love this trait, I think there should be some rework to it, there’s literally no counterplay to it since Shocking aura will proc the stun from basically anything.

No thank you. All other classes have various similar traits as well (some better than others):

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Autodefense_Bomb_Dispenser
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retaliatory_Subconscious
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirror_of_Anguish
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Protection
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shared_Anguish
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hard_to_Catch
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Stand

Laraley.7695:

5. The buuuuurn. It’s not just ele, it’s all the burn in general, it’s a bit too strong I would say.

I agree with this.

We can argue about how much swaping to earth is an active play, but the fact is eles will be swaping to earth even without getting bursted as a part of their rotation and there will be damage prevented without them even knowing it. I don’t consider this active play, you might, though. The same goes for blinding ashes, it provides some level of defense while you might be playing badly and it doesn’t reward just skilled play.

Other classes having similar traits to tempest defense wasn’t the point. None of these traits actually require you to do anything to gain something and I think all of them are bad. Or do you really think it takes a skill to proc Mirror of Anguish?

Remedy.3429:

OP you should go play ele for like 5 minutes.

Thanks for the suggestion, I got several thousands hours/games on ele.

I’ve listed my thoughts under each point.

Laraley.7695:

So, I’ve been thinking as everyone has been asking for buffs, which is totally understandable, there could also be a list of things that should be nerfed. I’m asking for an opinion from people who actually main ele/play ele a lot, to see things from their point of view.

What I think should be nerfed/reworked:

1. Diamond skin. I’m not a fan of this at all, it’s either too strong or completely irrelevant. I do not like how easily it counters condition builds in 1v1 scenario.

I’m not against changing diamond skin, but it would need to still be great. Maybe reduces condition duration by 50% while below 50% hp. It’ll probably end up passive regardless.

2. Stone Heart. Again, this trait just promotes passive play and to gain the most out of it, you would need to be camping earth. I think this is just badly designed trait.

This trait is terrible for passive play. I don’t know of a single build that works anymore for passive play with this trait. However, the trait is awesome, and I use it in many of my builds. When you sense incoming damage, you swap to earth and take the hit with protection and stone heart. It is a wonderful trait, and I don’t want to see it changed. I think its the only thing keeping my build viable.

3. Blinding ashes. Another passive that I’m not a fan of. Blind is pretty strong and therefore it should reward a skilled play, not random burn proc you get from another trait.

I think an interesting change could be to change your fire fields to also cause periodic blinding. It won’t be as frequent, but it would be better controlled, and aoe. I’m honestly not sure on this trait. I feel its weak, but I’m not sure how to help it.

4. Tempest defense. As much as I love this trait, I think there should be some rework to it, there’s literally no counterplay to it since Shocking aura will proc the stun from basically anything.

Again, why change this trait. It doesn’t need counterplay, even though it has some. Rather, it is the counterplay to stun->burst. It prevents you from being trained as hard. Counterplay is to stun the ele, leave them, and then do your burst cycle.

5. The buuuuurn. It’s not just ele, it’s all the burn in general, it’s a bit too strong I would say.

Burn feels fun to me, but I could see how nerfing it would please the masses. I just tried a burn build last night. It didn’t seem as strong as my standard cele staff. Overall, I think people are overreacting to this. Cleanse can help, but maybe that’s cause I’m an elementalist, and we have some of the best cleansing in the game. Either way, I won’t be hurt if this is nerfed some. But it will decrease ele build diversity some.

So what are things you would nerf/rework if you were on the ele balance team?

I agree that both stone heart and blinding ashes have a more passive aproach. It will just happen on what you do. But it is part of active play and the build. when i swap between fire, air, earth it will absorb damage.
But i think its good to have somthing that doesn´t only rely on eles button mash, move like crazy and reaction playstyle. Thers alredy plenty of it. Good to have some more relaxed things too …

Wolfric.9380:

I agree that both stone heart and blinding ashes have a more passive aproach. It will just happen on what you do. But it is part of active play and the build. when i swap between fire, air, earth it will absorb damage.
But i think its good to have somthing that doesn´t only rely on eles button mash, move like crazy and reaction playstyle. Thers alredy plenty of it. Good to have some more relaxed things too …

Maybe, but I feel like that this current earth/water/arcana d/d ele has a way too high reward for a low risk. They’re quite tanky and can do pretty decent damage, too. That’s obviously not only ele’s problem, the damage is high in general, but I think being able to go full in earth just made the spec easier than it should be.

Glenstorm.4059:

I too don’t see why Necros and Mesmers need access to burning, seeing as how they get access to almost every other damaging condition each, and Ele only gets bleeds (and poison via Doom.)

Ele bleeds are bad they simply do not stack fast enofe the bleeds them self become more cover condition for eles real condition dmg effect burning.

Laraley.7695:

Remedy.3429:

OP you should go play ele for like 5 minutes.

Thanks for the suggestion, I got several thousands hours/games on ele.

Yet you think a blind with a 5 second cooldown needs a nerf? Really it is longer because we don’t camp in fire. It is also a grand master trait. It doesn’t really seem passive to me. If you are in fire and need a blind use drakes breath. We have the lowest base armor in game, I think a 5 ICD is fine. Guardians have 2004281 buttons that heal and make them invulnerable.

Laraley.7695:

Wolfric.9380:

I agree that both stone heart and blinding ashes have a more passive aproach. It will just happen on what you do. But it is part of active play and the build. when i swap between fire, air, earth it will absorb damage.
But i think its good to have somthing that doesn´t only rely on eles button mash, move like crazy and reaction playstyle. Thers alredy plenty of it. Good to have some more relaxed things too …

Maybe, but I feel like that this current earth/water/arcana d/d ele has a way too high reward for a low risk. They’re quite tanky and can do pretty decent damage, too. That’s obviously not only ele’s problem, the damage is high in general, but I think being able to go full in earth just made the spec easier than it should be.

Earth/water/arcane ele doesn’t do any significant damage. You’ll never bring down a warrior for example before he kills you.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Laraley.7695:

Wolfric.9380:

I agree that both stone heart and blinding ashes have a more passive aproach. It will just happen on what you do. But it is part of active play and the build. when i swap between fire, air, earth it will absorb damage.
But i think its good to have somthing that doesn´t only rely on eles button mash, move like crazy and reaction playstyle. Thers alredy plenty of it. Good to have some more relaxed things too …

Maybe, but I feel like that this current earth/water/arcana d/d ele has a way too high reward for a low risk. They’re quite tanky and can do pretty decent damage, too. That’s obviously not only ele’s problem, the damage is high in general, but I think being able to go full in earth just made the spec easier than it should be.

Earth/water/arcane ele doesn’t do any significant damage. You’ll never bring down a warrior for example before he kills you.

I completely disagree, they do plenty of damage. If the warrior is shoutbow, then the ele has a better chance than before patch.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Of course it would be ele’s that make a threat about nerfing themselves…

Anyway, my ideas:

1. Burning: completely remove burning from Engineers, Necros and Mesmers. Make it an exclusive damaging condition for Eles and Guardians. As long as Necros, Engis and Mesmers can put out almost ALL the damaging conditions on top of burning, while Eles and Guardians have nothing else besides burning (you can’t really stack bleeding as an ele and if you try to you can’t stack burning, both in the same build/ at the same time aren’t possible). As long as this doesn’t change burning can never be balanced. It will either be OP for engi/mesmer/necro and a viable choice for condition builds for Ele/Guard like it is now, or it will be balanced for engi/mes/nec while underpowered for us like it was before the big patch.

One of the worst ideas I’ve recently read. Nothing screams BURN like enginees does. Engie was always burn heavy since the beginning and had the most ways to apply burn.

Remedy.3429:

Laraley.7695:

Remedy.3429:

OP you should go play ele for like 5 minutes.

Thanks for the suggestion, I got several thousands hours/games on ele.

Yet you think a blind with a 5 second cooldown needs a nerf? Really it is longer because we don’t camp in fire. It is also a grand master trait. It doesn’t really seem passive to me. If you are in fire and need a blind use drakes breath. We have the lowest base armor in game, I think a 5 ICD is fine. Guardians have 2004281 buttons that heal and make them invulnerable.

I would say a rework rather than a nerf. It doesn’t seem passive to you? How about the fact you proc the blind from another proc? You don’t even need to do anything to get the blind off besides randomly hitting your enemy. Ele has quite a lot healing and invulnerabilities, too. This really doean’t justify a passive defesnvie trait.

I want to answer as someone who plays everything BUT Ele (and honestly my teef just sits there after I learned the mechanics) but has plenty of experience fighting them and am familiar with how they work.

As an example, let’s use the build in my sig. I was fighting a D/D Ele yesterday and I landed CC combo after CC combo. It didn’t matter, all they had to do was swap to Earth after the first stun and my damage goes down to pathetic levels. It feels super unfair that you aren’t being punished for repeatedly eating stun after stun. The old version of my build would fight the old D/D to a standstill and the same happens with the new versions. The major difference is that I could beat the old D/D if I comboed my CC properly, that’s not really a thing now. Even mediocre Eles died before, but now you just have to have a base knowledge of how your skills work.

Also, vs Warrior Blinding Ashes is super strong.

Laraley.7695:

Remedy.3429:

Laraley.7695:

Remedy.3429:

OP you should go play ele for like 5 minutes.

Thanks for the suggestion, I got several thousands hours/games on ele.

Yet you think a blind with a 5 second cooldown needs a nerf? Really it is longer because we don’t camp in fire. It is also a grand master trait. It doesn’t really seem passive to me. If you are in fire and need a blind use drakes breath. We have the lowest base armor in game, I think a 5 ICD is fine. Guardians have 2004281 buttons that heal and make them invulnerable.

I would say a rework rather than a nerf. It doesn’t seem passive to you? How about the fact you proc the blind from another proc? You don’t even need to do anything to get the blind off besides randomly hitting your enemy. Ele has quite a lot healing and invulnerabilities, too. This really doean’t justify a passive defesnvie trait.

I still don’t see the problem with passives? Should we remove the chance to burn on crit? Should we take away critical hits altogether? Crit chance is passive and happens automatically, doesn’t require anything different to proc.

And what is wrong with procs proccing something else? Should we remove removing condis when giving regen so that cantrips don’t cure condis? Ele is as active as a class can be, passives are neccesarry in surviving with such a squishy class, and we still have less passives compared to other classes that have more natural defense than we do.

None of the reasons given justify a change, because the active/passive play argument on it’s own isn’t a good one. What should be looked at is if a passive trait is to strong compared to other passive traits the same with active skills.

The list is cherry picked of the some passive traits, but ignores all the other passive traits which is just about every trait in the game.

My question is which “passive play” traits are ok and which “passive play” traits aren’t.

If we used the logic of active vs passive play off top of my head you would need to redesign every class and the whole combat system including the PvE side, basically you would need to make a new game.

Using some examples similar to whats stated in the OP for elementalist

Soothing Ice
Renewing stamina
Cleansing water
Soothing disruption
Any +% trait while meeting X condition like burning
Static Discharge
Whatever sigil you put on your weapon
Stop, drop, and roll
Geomancers Training
Aeromancer’s training
Aquamancers training
Pyromancers training
Elemental Contingency
Elemental Attunement
Zephyr’s Speed

The list goes on and on the game is littered with “passive play” you pick a trait you get a benefit and all it required you to do is click something = profit.

The only thing really active in this game is dodging, blocking, and landing an attack. You don’t enter D,DF,F to shoot fire grab like a hadoken in Street Fighter you just press 5 while being mindful about some positioning.

I don’t know I’m a pretty black/white kind of guy I don’t think a compelling argument can be made for nerfing something solely based on picking a few “passives” with the position of it’s to strong because passive.

Laraley.7695:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Laraley.7695:

Wolfric.9380:

I agree that both stone heart and blinding ashes have a more passive aproach. It will just happen on what you do. But it is part of active play and the build. when i swap between fire, air, earth it will absorb damage.
But i think its good to have somthing that doesn´t only rely on eles button mash, move like crazy and reaction playstyle. Thers alredy plenty of it. Good to have some more relaxed things too …

Maybe, but I feel like that this current earth/water/arcana d/d ele has a way too high reward for a low risk. They’re quite tanky and can do pretty decent damage, too. That’s obviously not only ele’s problem, the damage is high in general, but I think being able to go full in earth just made the spec easier than it should be.

Earth/water/arcane ele doesn’t do any significant damage. You’ll never bring down a warrior for example before he kills you.

I completely disagree, they do plenty of damage. If the warrior is shoutbow, then the ele has a better chance than before patch.

Haven’t seen a single shoutbow warrior since the patch, they all seem to run zerker greatsword which I meant. With diamond skin you’ll never get them down before they down you.

Also, like it has always been: There is no point in nerfing as long as bugs aren’t fixed. For example the fire minor trait gives 150 power all the time + an additional 150 power while in fire. That alone makes us do more damage than intended for example.

Same thing for engis: No use in nerfing them right now as long as the grenade barrage bug is in the game making any judgement of balance unviable.

The reason why I picked these traits is exactly the fact that they provide too much for too little, I even stated that. I don’t think all passives should be removed from the game, but there are plenty of them that should. Sigils are another story and I think lots people are annoyed with the fact this game depends on damage from procs, they have no counterplay.

Also, there’s really a difference between having something proc a hard cc and something lowering your cooldown in air.

I agree that especially air and fire sigils should be removed from the game, they do nothing to add to any builds or gameplay, like a lot of other sigils do.

I also agree that passive traits are bad and active traits are better. Yet basically all passive ele traits besides diamond skin are worse / more active than comparable traits from other classes.

We get static aura when CC’d. If the enemy stops attacking this does nothing and even if they attack into it it’s only a 1 second stun and it has a proc cooldown so this has a lot of counterplay. Same for Cold Aura on crit, but it’s even worse because it just reduces damage by a very small amount and gives a short chill to attackers, again with a proc cooldown.

Compare that to the ranger trait that gives them stealth upon getting CC’d or the mesmer one that simply mirrors the CC back. Now those are totally passive traits (and both much better than tempest defense too).

If i am on Ele balance team i would do the following for burning.

Reduce burning precisions ICD to 2 seconds.
Put blinding ashes on per target cooldown. Increase the cooldown slightly to 6s afterwards. (just lowering ICD would make it OP in 1:1. Even 5s is strong there).

Reduce burn stacks from circle and breath by 1.
Change burning from elemental surge to slow.

For pvp is feel thats enough. Much burning stacks hit static targets, so its more PvE relevant.

I don´t know it burnign will be nerfed at once or individualy fo ech class. Bith is possible, and both can be done in a good or a bad way.

For an overal change i have the suggestion to make burn always the first condi to be cleansed. So a single condi remover will hit burn. PvP burn would become less a threat immidiately. Especially in groups.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

I agree that especially air and fire sigils should be removed from the game, they do nothing to add to any builds or gameplay, like a lot of other sigils do.

I also agree that passive traits are bad and active traits are better. Yet basically all passive ele traits besides diamond skin are worse / more active than comparable traits from other classes.

We get static aura when CC’d. If the enemy stops attacking this does nothing and even if they attack into it it’s only a 1 second stun and it has a proc cooldown so this has a lot of counterplay. Same for Cold Aura on crit, but it’s even worse because it just reduces damage by a very small amount and gives a short chill to attackers, again with a proc cooldown.

Compare that to the ranger trait that gives them stealth upon getting CC’d or the mesmer one that simply mirrors the CC back. Now those are totally passive traits (and both much better than tempest defense too).

I agree that getting a Shocking aura is a bit weaker than Mirror of Anguish for exmaple, but then again the cooldown on tempest defense is only 25 seconds. These traits in general are quite furstrating to fight against, though.

Laraley.7695:

The reason why I picked these traits is exactly the fact that they provide too much for too little, I even stated that. I don’t think all passives should be removed from the game, but there are plenty of them that should. Sigils are another story and I think lots people are annoyed with the fact this game depends on damage from procs, they have no counterplay.

Also, there’s really a difference between having something proc a hard cc and something lowering your cooldown in air.

Aeromancer’s training doesn’t only lower your cooldown it also passively gives you +190 precision or about 9%.

I see your position I can understand that position and there are others that share it. I just don’t think it’s a strong one, because they provide a lot for you ,or like minded playstyles, while water will provide a lot of passives for some support healer.

Geomancer’s training passively drops movement impairment conditions combined with Hoelbrak for -53% duration.

I can get a +21% damage increase as long as they burn and I’m in fire just by picking one trait that is a choice.

I’m probably detracting from the specifics of the topic at hand I think the traits you chose are fine.

oZii.2864:

Laraley.7695:

The reason why I picked these traits is exactly the fact that they provide too much for too little, I even stated that. I don’t think all passives should be removed from the game, but there are plenty of them that should. Sigils are another story and I think lots people are annoyed with the fact this game depends on damage from procs, they have no counterplay.

Also, there’s really a difference between having something proc a hard cc and something lowering your cooldown in air.

Aeromancer’s training doesn’t only lower your cooldown it also passively gives you +190 precision or about 9%.

I see your position I can understand that position and there are others that share it. I just don’t think it’s a strong one, because they provide a lot for you ,or like minded playstyles, while water will provide a lot of passives for some support healer.

Geomancer’s training passively drops movement impairment conditions combined with Hoelbrak for -53% duration.

I can get a +21% damage increase as long as they burn and I’m in fire just by picking one trait that is a choice.

I’m probably detracting from the specifics of the topic at hand I think the traits you chose are fine.

We’ll have to agree to disagree then. I’m fine with some level of passivity, but things like Diamond skin and Stone heart (notice you cannot get any procs including fire and air, so the damage drops significantly) are way too much. I would say even without being either completely or at least partly passive traits, they would still be too strong. Diamond skin just totally counters any condi build in the 1v1 scenario and on the other hand the ele won’t benefit from it in a team fight at all since there will be tons of direct damage, too. It’s a badly designed trait and should totally be reworked. I like the idea of having having access to resistance instead, which would alow at least some counterplay.

I agree with oZii that there’s different types of passive traits, 3 I’d say:

1. Traits that improve your damage/defense conditionally (10% more damage against burning foes, 10% less damage from melee foes): These are fine I think because they make you play differently than if you wouldn’t have them.
2. Traits that reduce cooldown on skills (20% on cantrips, 33% on air, …): These are fine too because while the traits themselves are passive, they actually make your playstyle more active by enabling more skill usage.
3. Traits that proc things (chance to burn on crit, static aura when getting CC’d): Now these are the really bad, boring and passive traits, yet they are all over all classes. All they do is basically make you want some crit chance (some even don’t need you to crit at all). The rest happens automatically. Now only are these traits boring design, they often enough are the worst balance offenders. Think of old Doomfire or Incendiary Rounds or whatever the engi burn proc is called.

Jski.6180:

Glenstorm.4059:

I too don’t see why Necros and Mesmers need access to burning, seeing as how they get access to almost every other damaging condition each, and Ele only gets bleeds (and poison via Doom.)

Ele bleeds are bad they simply do not stack fast enofe the bleeds them self become more cover condition for eles real condition dmg effect burning.

Yep, which is why I hope they don’t nerf our burning to the ground.

I’d also be happy with QoL adjustments to Scepter and Dagger Earth auto-attacks to help us maintain bleeds a little better.

Is this only in regards to SPvP/WvW? If not, then for the sake of PvE balance, Icebow should receive significant nerfs to open up more slots for other professions in dungeon/fractal teams. Having at least two eles for icebows is pretty much mandatory for getting the most damage out of 5 people. Staff damage and blasted fury alone are good enough to make ele desirable.

Elorna.5329:

Is this only in regards to SPvP/WvW? If not, then for the sake of PvE balance, Icebow should receive significant nerfs to open up more slots for other professions in dungeon/fractal teams. Having at least two icebows is pretty much mandatory for getting the most damage out of 5 people. Staff damage and blasted fury alone are good enough to make ele desirable.

Well, I did create the topic with pvp in mind, but every opinion is welcomed. And I think you’re right about that, I was almost sure ice bow would get nerfed with the patch, but they actually decided to buff it, not quite sure why.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

1. Diamond Skin: Now grants 2 seconds of resistance upon switching attunements.
2. Stone Heart: this trait is perfectly fine. Eles cannot camp a single attunement, there’s nothing passive about switching to earth when bursted.
3. Blinding Ashes: This trait is underpowered, not overpowerd. Make it’s cooldown per target and it should actually be viable even with 5 seconds cooldown. Blind is the easiest condition to get rid of.
4. Tempest Defense: another perfectly fine trait. Could actually need a little buff.
5. Burning: completely remove burning from Necros and Mesmers. Make it an exclusive damaging condition for Eles and Guardians and Engis

i like

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Anyway, my ideas:

1. Diamond Skin: Now grants 2 seconds of resistance upon switching attunements.

No. Please no… Diamond Skin must remain useful for the no-cantrips specs/no water specs. You must understand the the attention that have been brought to Diamond Skin lately is that the old D/D builds with already plenty of condition clear decided to pick it.

With the proposed changed here, you give even more power to D/D cantrip or Staff cantrip.

I’ve been thinking about it, and a change like this could help to give fairness to the trait:

-You gain Diamond Skin when above 90% health threshold. Diamond Skin grants an uncleansable Resistance boon. While above the threshold, reduce incoming condition duration by 33%.

With that change in mind, the trait acts as an insurance against conditions without traiting or planning utilities against conditions. Instead, traiting in Diamond Skin will require to play the Threshold game. Also, cantrips builds will not see too much benefit to it since the conditions are still there once the threshold is broken. Moreover, condition builds who happen to break the Diamond Skin will see their damage going in for an interesting spike instead of that slow damage after breaking the skin (The first conditions are always cleaned instantly with Cantrips builds, which makes it twice as impossible for any condition builds.)

Another interesting change about Resistance over the threshold is how you can claim resistance back and mitigate conditions that are already applied if you manage to heal back to 90%, though, the condition duration will not be reduced if the conditions are received while under the threshold, as intended.

Diamond Skin should definitely take advantage of the new anti-condi boon rather than just being it’s own thing, but I’d actually like to see that make it more powerful but more involved. Above 90% HP is a pretty lame condition under which it should work. This may be impossible for them to achieve, but I’d like to see it immunity connected to regen in the same way that removal is connected to regen – for example, applying regen when under the effects of a condition instead applies half as much Resistance. Stone Heart is fine, and I think it’s a brilliant trait because it’s finally making Earth attunement a strong swap choice when you’re being bursted. Before it had CC and a projectile reflect, plus some Protection for entering it. That’s fairly strong, but it’s not strong against everyone. Protection alone is not a particularly big deal to high burst classes, and the reflect is short and mostly useful against rangers only. Ele’s have always been a different sort of bunker because their Vitality and Toughness aren’t nearly as strong as their counterparts, therefore they have a much more involved job of keeping themselves alive. A bunker guard/warrior can easily sit a thief opener – but until recently, elementalist needed to stun break urgently, or at least Flash away, and even then that helps very little. Now they swap earth, and come out of the opener at about half health able to heal away the damage. To me, if you’re traiting into the most tanky intended line for Eles, you DESERVE an easy counter to burst classes. There is another even better option, as I almost don’t think it’s fair to make us choose between the two traits atm – first, immunity to critical hits should also be a boon like Resistance, and the trait should be that when you attune to Earth gain 5 seconds of Condi AND Crit immunity ONLY if you remain in Earth for those 5 seconds. This means a maximum uptime of 5 seconds for every 13.5 seconds, and encourages significantly more strategic play without forcing people to make on the fly decisions about whether to run Stone Heart or Diamond Skin.

How about we nerf… nothing.

Elementalist finally got an overall buff in a patch. There are thieves doing 36k damage right now and condition build classes like engi and necro are having a wet dream.

If you want to retool the way certain traits work, to make them more well-rounded, that I can agree on. But nerfing something? kitten right off.

Let’s look at the two most significant traits you mentioned.

Diamond Skin
I have a soft spot for this trait, ironically. It’s the one I use, and I think it works absolutely fine the way it is. Do you have any idea how much active gameplay and knowledge of skill rotations is necessary for making a build with this work? Tons. I can hold nodes against two pure condi opponents by keeping my health above 90% as much as I can. It’s the perfect counter to the current meta where everyone and their ugly pink moa is applying conditions. Let them get frustrated by facing some decent Diamond Skin players and go get some power gear. kitten this condi kitten.

Stoneheart
On the other side of the spectrum from condi builds are those cowardly kittens who hide in stealth until they can backstab you for 6-9k damage, plus whatever proc sigil they have that deals another 3-4k. If ANet refuses to reveal them the moment they even LOOK at their attack button, thereby allowing them to SPAM their abilities through your block/invuln duration until they get a hit, then the best counter to their bullkitten is a build that is immune to critical hits. Let them get frustrated by facing some decent Stoneheart players and go get some vitality/toughness gear so they can withstand a swat when they act like a kittening mosquito.

You want to retool these skills so that they’re less situational? Fine. Make Diamond Skin render you immune to the following abilities over 75% health:

• Bleeding
• Burning
• Poison
• Vulnerability
  And make all conditions half as effective (half damage, half duration) over 50% health.

And for Stoneheart, make it so that the Protection boon makes you immune to critical hits. That way you have to stay active with refreshing your boons, and if Protection is stripped you become susceptible to critical hits.

There, retooled but not nerfed. Happy?

This is the reason i love Elementalist. You can build counters to the meta. That does not allow you to play passiv/camp an atunement. I am a stone heart lover. But when i stay in earth, i can hardly bring annyone down , if my oponent has a very high power i won´t sutain the damage very long and have to switch element at a good moment. If not, all i can do would be taking the hits for a while and flee . I won´t contibute much to a fight except being a bullet catcher for the team. (Which i enjoy :-) )

Provost.6210:

How about we nerf… nothing.

Elementalist finally got an overall buff in a patch. There are thieves doing 36k damage right now and condition build classes like engi and necro are having a wet dream.

If you want to retool the way certain traits work, to make them more well-rounded, that I can agree on. But nerfing something? kitten right off.

Let’s look at the two most significant traits you mentioned.

Diamond Skin
I have a soft spot for this trait, ironically. It’s the one I use, and I think it works absolutely fine the way it is. Do you have any idea how much active gameplay and knowledge of skill rotations is necessary for making a build with this work? Tons. I can hold nodes against two pure condi opponents by keeping my health above 90% as much as I can. It’s the perfect counter to the current meta where everyone and their ugly pink moa is applying conditions. Let them get frustrated by facing some decent Diamond Skin players and go get some power gear. kitten this condi kitten.

Stoneheart
On the other side of the spectrum from condi builds are those cowardly kittens who hide in stealth until they can backstab you for 6-9k damage, plus whatever proc sigil they have that deals another 3-4k. If ANet refuses to reveal them the moment they even LOOK at their attack button, thereby allowing them to SPAM their abilities through your block/invuln duration until they get a hit, then the best counter to their bullkitten is a build that is immune to critical hits. Let them get frustrated by facing some decent Stoneheart players and go get some vitality/toughness gear so they can withstand a swat when they act like a kittening mosquito.

You want to retool these skills so that they’re less situational? Fine. Make Diamond Skin render you immune to the following abilities over 75% health:

• Bleeding
• Burning
• Poison
• Vulnerability
  And make all conditions half as effective (half damage, half duration) over 50% health.

And for Stoneheart, make it so that the Protection boon makes you immune to critical hits. That way you have to stay active with refreshing your boons, and if Protection is stripped you become susceptible to critical hits.

There, retooled but not nerfed. Happy?

Not being able to be critically hit under the protection boon would make the trait insanely broken. Do you realize that ele has so much access to protection that you wouldn’t be getting any crit hits most of the time?

It’s not like ele was underpowered before the patch, it needed more options, not a buff to d/d spec.

not critable under protection would be plain OP.
When you use stone herat, your damage output is limitet and forced to be largly condition damage, so its slow. You are slow, oponent is slowed in damage… Fine
When you put it on protection, crazyness would follow.
E.g. Zerker build aith air/arcane, Stone heart and earth embrace.
You fire earth armor and rotate air, fire, water for full damage output, heal a bit, and are -33% uncritable. after wering off you are hit, boom another earth armor goes up…

No brain easy to play direct assaut build. Full damage output while massiv absorb AND stability….

Sorin.4310:

Staff ele. It’s one of the easiest builds in the game, and yet it offers the highest DPS.

Not sure if serious…
I highly encourage you to try Fractals level 45+ on a Staff Ele with pure Zerker armor. Single mistake and you are dead.

As pointed out by other people, Diamond skin is not exactly a “anti condi” trait.
Its not really designed so you can fight condi classes.

The idea of the trait (and for this it works great) is to make sure you get your initial burst out. No immob, no blind, no weakness when you start the fight, so you get those first hits right.
Thats why the hp threshold is so high.

lLobo.7960:

As pointed out by other people, Diamond skin is not exactly a “anti condi” trait.
Its not really designed so you can fight condi classes.

The idea of the trait (and for this it works great) is to make sure you get your initial burst out. No immob, no blind, no weakness when you start the fight, so you get those first hits right.
Thats why the hp threshold is so high.

Maybe it wasn’t designed that way, however it does counter condi specs.

Maybe it forces condi spec to actually build for more than one stat to deal damage ? :x

There’s a lot of auto proc things but generally they have specific circumstances associated with them. I don’t mind them too much as once you know someone is using it, you can work around it.

Diamond skin should just be resistance but perhaps extended to 1-2s on attunement swap.

Stone heart I think is fine, no-one ever won anything camping in earth outside that weird sceptre condi build.

I think eles boons need nerfing but not in a way that they just become useless. I think they need to be less easy to apply but last a bit longer so a strip or conversion actually sticks for longer than 1-2s. Ultimately they should still keep the same sort of position they had but just really get hurt by strips and conversion and allow that to be a counter.

What people suggesting stuff like “ele boons need nerfing” always seem to forget is that ele’s don’t have anything else besides boon as defensive options. Thief/Mesmer has stealth, Guard/Warrior/Mesmer have block, necros have shroud, etc.

Eles only have boons really, that’s why our boons are strong, especially the defensive ones.