Guild Wars 2

Hey guys!

Based on the information we know about the forthcoming changes to the Tempest slated for BWE 3, I’ve created a list of our raw healing values from the known data on the Tempest’s skills. We still need Healing Power Ratios on both of the Warhorn Water skills!

I can achieve at least 2,000 healing power with my current PVE gear, so in trying to see how far we can push the limits of the Tempest’s healing capabilities in anticipation of Raids and WvW content, here is the list based on currently known changes and prior data:

Tidal Surge
Total Healing: Inconclusive, but will be greater than 4,342, unknown scaling.

• 1,302 + (Unknown Healing Power Value)
• 3,040 from 8s of Regeneration = 8 * (130 + (0.125 * 2,000))

Water Orb
Total Healing: Inconclusive, but will be greater than 1,880, unknown scaling, with potentially a minimum of 3,600 if at least one blast finisher is used, will be higher when scaling is added

• 1,880 = 4 pulses * 470 + (Unknown Healing Power Value)
• 1,720 per blast finisher = 1,320 + (0.2 * 2,000)

Water Overload
Total healing: 9,131 per ally if fully channeled.

• 3,632 Final heal burst = (2,132 + (0.75 * 2,000))
• 2,460 healing from 4 seconds of Pulses = 5 pulses * 492 healing per second (392 + (0.05 * 2,000))
• 3,040 from 8s of Regeneration = 8 * (130 + (0.125 * 2,000))

“Wash The Pain Away”
Total Healing: 6,510 per ally if all hit.

• 4,160 = 3,560 +(0.3 * 2,000)
• 2,350 = 1,950 + (0.2 * 2,000)
• 1,180 = 980 + (0.1 * 2,000)

“Rebound”
Total Healing: 5,000 per ally that receives fatal damage.

• 5,000 = 2,000 + (1.5 * 2,000)

Elemental Bastion
Causes each Aura application to heal for a total of 1,773 after the BWE 3 changes
Inconclusive if Shouts + Powerful Auras Trait will allow for double healing, if so, potentially 3,546 healing per Aura Shout

• 1,773 = 783 + (0.495 * 2,000)

Analysis:

All of the above values are raw values before additional modifiers on outgoing healing are applied. Runes of the Monk offer +10% outgoing healing, the rice ball consumable offers +100 Healing Power and +10% outgoing healing, and lastly Water Traitline offers +15% outgoing healing as well.

If these stack additively, this is a total of +35% outgoing healing to allies if stacked, or if multiplicative stacking, then its +39% outgoing healing. This makes a significant contribution to the already large numbers, and should be considered while judging how “powerful” these values would be in a supportive role for raiding and WvW.

The heal scaling on the Water Overload seems very acceptable, and while its now going to take longer to yield the burst of healing at the end, it looks to be receiving more total healing with the duration increase and starting “on cast” rather than waiting the first second, as well as more total cleansing: (4 or 5 pulses depending on if the final second applies a pulse).

On to the individual skills:

The changes to Elemental Bastion are very welcome, as in PvP with monk runes and water’s outgoing healing increase, they were only healing allies for 1,200-ish. Now they will heal significantly more on allies.

The War Horn skills are still a big unknown until someone can link a scaling value or a video with their stats so I can figure it out.

WTPA is amazing for burst healing a nearby ally who has taken a hard hit, as it comes out fast with the largest heal occurring first. I put this to GREAT use in PVP with only 1350 healing power, so I imagine this will be always on my bar unless personal condi removal is needed come time for WVW/Raids. Combined with the new “Rebound!” we will be hands down the best emergency healing type role and best at healing someone to full after a revival. Not to put too find a point on it, but if an allied warrior/necro with beserker stats is at 10% health, a single combo of Rebound + WTPA will heal for 15,538 of their 19,212 base health. For Medium and Low tier health classes, this is a full heal if they are running base health.

Everything save for the two warhorn skills can also be used with existing weapons, in particular staff will still be a very solid raw healing option with the following abilities:

Water Blast
Total Healing 872, but can be used every second, for very high HPS.

• 872 = 372 + (0.25 8 2,000)

Geyser
Total Healing 3,924

• 3,924 = 2,424 + (0.75 * 2,000)

Healing Rain
Total Healing 4,560

• 4,560 from 12 seconds of Regeneration = 12 * (130 + (0.125 * 2,000))

Also, we can’t forget Soothing Mist, which when in Water Trait and traited for increased potency heals for a metric crap ton over time, especially on allies with maximum outgoing heal. This is very often understated, but in 10 seconds this little passive has just out healed almost every single self heal in the game for any player who has not invested in healing power, AND its being applied all the time to yourself and four allies.

Soothing Mist
Total healing of 560 per second! And since in Water trait line as a requirement of use, it will ALWAYS heal allies for a minimum of 644 per second, or 779 per second with Monk Runes and Rice Ball active.

• 560 = 2 * (80 + (0.1 * 2,000))

Do you take into account :

PvP and PvE/WvW
- 15% outgoing healing from aquatic benevolence
- 10% outgoing healing from superior runes of the monk

Only PvE/WvW
- 10% outgoing healing from delicious riceball
- 12.5% outgoing healing from Superior sigil of benevolence

So 47.5% more outgoing healing. Do you take them into your calculation?

Edit : Nevermind I’ve got my answer, I hadn’t read everything.

Dadnir.5038:

Do you take into account :
- 12.5% outgoing healing from _ Superior sigil of benevolence_

…

Oh my god.

I just now learned these existed. My Ele is going to heal even more!

Well, now … that means Rebound + Wash the Pain Away is going to full heal even Warriors and Necros to full health at base line

Wash the Pain Away’s healing value is pretty impressive, and even comparable to the guardian’s Healing Breeze, however, its range kind of puts quite a damper on it. Sometimes even chasing allies around with Healing Breeze is difficult enough, let alone chasing allies around with a 180-360 range heal. I guess it could work decently with Lightning Flash. Really liking the look of the new Rebound though.

Elemental Bastion change i do not comply understand it can some one tell it to me? Any way tempest as a melee healer seems like it will be a very powerful tool for wvw maybe for spvp i do not think it will be all that good for pve. I think tempest water earth is the main support build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJBIhdSfJ0fJ25AYhJwhJWEBM32acNvS0BSAHghAwAIBC-TFyHABOv/AdKBV+EA0qqKHp8DN9AFqWBAPAgAAIA3sNDghO0hO0hO0u5Qv5Pv5PLFATCtA-w
Is what i am looking at for wvw all in bunker healing build.

The heat sink changes may cause some problems with the build due to no longer being able to “replacing” one of the gurds in the stander melee group as effectively when it comes to aoe stab. But i think it still will work even with out boon share effect.

Honestly the sources of healing for Elementalist were never bad. There’s plenty to be had with Staff in fact.

The main problem has been and always will be that there’s always vastly more individuals dealing damage than there are healing. Lets say, for the sake of argument, you had a healing version of Lava Font. You, at best, negate one source of damage. But when there’s 4 people damaging for each source of healing (and that’s a very generous 4:1 ratio) the 1 can’t possibly hope to keep up. It’s like you’re spitting on a raging house fire hoping to put the flames out. It’s been tried to death in WvW and just doesn’t work.

The only way I see healing becoming a thing is if they either vastly increase the output of healing to be on par with DPS or for some kind of raid encounter with HOT.

Kodiak.3281:

Honestly the sources of healing for Elementalist were never bad. There’s plenty to be had with Staff in fact.

The main problem has been and always will be that there’s always vastly more individuals dealing damage than there are healing. Lets say, for the sake of argument, you had a healing version of Lava Font. You, at best, negate one source of damage. But when there’s 4 people damaging for each source of healing (and that’s a very generous 4:1 ratio) the 1 can’t possibly hope to keep up. It’s like you’re spitting on a raging house fire hoping to put the flames out. It’s been tried to death in WvW and just doesn’t work.

The only way I see healing becoming a thing is if they either vastly increase the output of healing to be on par with DPS or for some kind of raid encounter with HOT.

That true if each player did not have there own set of heals evades and def tools. That 4:1 ratio is not reflective on how things work out.

Jski.6180:

That true if each player did not have there own set of heals evades and def tools. That 4:1 ratio is not reflective on how things work out.

Which precisely why out of a zerg of 40 people none of them be +Healing based since the start of the game. Back line can largely avoid the bulk of the bomb damage and their self heals and a modicum amount of tank is enough to survive on through. Meanwhile front line can survive entirely through targeted water fields (Elementalist) and through refreshes after an engagement (blast finishers). Unless they reduce the base amount healed on a blast finisher and vastly increase the amount from +Healing there will never be a point where taking +Healing based players is preferred over damage.

The classic example is the D/D ele in GvG or Zerg groups. It’s fallen completely out of the meta at this point. Even then it’s vastly superior to D/W Tempest because it actually brought damage, blast finishers and and strong boon support. D/W Healing Tempest on the other hand offers a modicum more healing (couple 100 in a game with 20k HP frontline average) from the base for a massive reduction in damage (zero crit) because it has to give up all damage in order to slot enough HP/Tough and Healing Power.

Again I’m not knocking the idea of a Tempest healer for parts of the game where it might be viable like raid encounters that are designed to require it…but WvW is not a place where it’ll see much use.

I don’t think a warhorn tempest will offer that much healing outside of its water field, but a healing staff ele will bring a lot more than a couple 100 HPS. Think something more along the lines of 2500 HPS, in addition to their water fields.

Kodiak.3281:

But when there’s 4 people damaging for each source of healing (and that’s a very generous 4:1 ratio) the 1 can’t possibly hope to keep up.

Why is this a fair comparison? You can’t seriously expect one healer to out-heal four people. It’s not their job to keep every person alive, it’s their job to keep some people alive. Do you think one glass cannon would be able to out-damage four healers?

Kodiak.3281:

The classic example is the D/D ele in GvG or Zerg groups. It’s fallen completely out of the meta at this point. Even then it’s vastly superior to D/W Tempest because it actually brought damage, blast finishers and and strong boon support.

The warhorn definitely offers far better boon support (is this even debatable?), and in this regard, an off-hand dagger only offers an extra blast finisher on a 45 second cooldown. The warhorn also offers a water field, which is a pretty big plus in WvW.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Why is this a fair comparison? You can’t seriously expect one healer to out-heal four people. It’s not their job to keep every person alive, it’s their job to keep some people alive. Do you think one glass cannon would be able to out-damage four healers?

You are 100% correct! It is entirely impractical for 1 person to out heal 4 people doing DPS. That was literally my entire point. In a 40 man zerg raid you maybe, might have 8 Elementalists which is only a 1:5 ratio of potential full support players. However, to be clear, one of the reason you see such a high ratio of Elementalists compared to other classes is the fact that Elementalists already bring some of the highest damage (rivaling Well necros) in addition to strong CC (Static, Unyielding) on top of also being one of the primary sources of Water fields for refreshes.

Fashion Mage.3712:

The warhorn definitely offers far better boon support (is this even debatable?), and in this regard, an off-hand dagger only offers an extra blast finisher on a 45 second cooldown. The warhorn also offers a water field, which is a pretty big plus in WvW.

Actually it’s completely debatable because you’re looking at it from the perspective of D/D vs D/W. The way you should be viewing it what can Tempest bring vs other classes? In a front line party you already have 2 Guardians (minimum) for stability plus a Warrior. That leaves 2 slots.

A moving water field is not helpful in an area where there’s already countless fields being dropped. How fields work is the first one placed gets priority for blasts, so if your frield gets dropped on a well bomb that’s just useless cause you’re going to get Area Weakness blasted. This is why Healing Rain is so clutch for WvW fights since the area is so massive it’s easy to find a side in and out of the bomb to ensure Waters get blasted mid-fight. Again, Staff just does it better.

The biggest issue continues to be a total and complete lack of damage. You’re forced into Tempest line by default. You’re also going to need to bring Arcane cause if you don’t then I could get the same boon generation/healing from Arcane with EA and EA. Then there’s the fact you also have to bring Water or your entire healing plan is done for.

With all this in mind, why wouldn’t I bring another Guardian? It would bring 12 stacks of Might. It’d bring Quickness and Fury. It’d bring AOE protection/regen. It’d bring even more stability. It’d bring even more blast finishers for refreshes. Healing Tempest might fit somewhere, I’m wagering raids, but WvW just isn’kitten

I agree with Kodiak.

MAYBE they will introduce 5 and 10 man content in HoT that is hard enough to justify having a single full support character.

Beyond that, coordinated water fields and blast finishers in a WvW zerg are where it’s at, because it’s the only way you can bypass the 5 man cap on AoE abilities. A staff elementalist laying down a water field and coordinating blast finishers will get far more mass group healing value than a tempest build and he’ll still have a ton of damage and CC to use to support the frontline.

As far as PvP, as I said before, the reality of conquest maps is you rarely ever fight in 5 man stacks so all this aoe healing ability loses a lot of value and you’ll have nothing else to bring to the table. A celestial bunker staff build with far less healing potential is still a better choice, because of their excellent point control and peels. MAYBE in courtyard it could shine, because you do typically fight in 5 man stacks on that map. MAYBE in stronghold it will have a place.

A lot of MAYBEs.

I mean don’t get me wrong; the numbers here show that tempest has a lot of healing potential. The problem is the game just doesn’t have a place for a full healing build.

Kodiak.3281:

Jski.6180:

That true if each player did not have there own set of heals evades and def tools. That 4:1 ratio is not reflective on how things work out.

Which precisely why out of a zerg of 40 people none of them be +Healing based since the start of the game. Back line can largely avoid the bulk of the bomb damage and their self heals and a modicum amount of tank is enough to survive on through. Meanwhile front line can survive entirely through targeted water fields (Elementalist) and through refreshes after an engagement (blast finishers). Unless they reduce the base amount healed on a blast finisher and vastly increase the amount from +Healing there will never be a point where taking +Healing based players is preferred over damage.

The classic example is the D/D ele in GvG or Zerg groups. It’s fallen completely out of the meta at this point. Even then it’s vastly superior to D/W Tempest because it actually brought damage, blast finishers and and strong boon support. D/W Healing Tempest on the other hand offers a modicum more healing (couple 100 in a game with 20k HP frontline average) from the base for a massive reduction in damage (zero crit) because it has to give up all damage in order to slot enough HP/Tough and Healing Power.

Again I’m not knocking the idea of a Tempest healer for parts of the game where it might be viable like raid encounters that are designed to require it…but WvW is not a place where it’ll see much use.

Base line healing is still healing and dmg mitigation of a lot if ppl do more then spame 1. What tempest dose is allows that melee group a higher abitly to take dmg and to get into back line.
At the end of the day necro will out dmg ele is not a pure dmg class even when build for it and when you do build ele for the all dmg build vs any competence gank they will have no real chase in a fight other then drop there big spells and leave the fight when a more tankly ele could stay and do more then just drop a spell and run.

The wvw / gvg meta is about to make a shift from banner meta to more of a combat sustate that blasting waters alone will not give enofe healing. By having something like tempest in the melee pt you let a hammer tarn become a true unstoppable forces.

Mind you there a lot more then just healing coming from the ele there unblocable cc burn and counter to ranges.

Nice numbers. Almost as good as my Ventari Rev with almost 130% outgoing healing :> Just different sources.

Definitely Ele healing support looks strong.

And I think raids might have spot for 2 strong supporters. 2 people pumping a lot of aoe heals for 10 players is a lot when fights are not a simple stack and burst.

Killyox.3950:

Nice numbers. Almost as good as my Ventari Rev with almost 130% outgoing healing :> Just different sources.

Definitely Ele healing support looks strong.

And I think raids might have spot for 2 strong supporters. 2 people pumping a lot of aoe heals for 10 players is a lot when fights are not a simple stack and burst.

That the thing its not 10 ppl but 10 melee you have rev or mezs support back line. So ele is more of the back line class who dose both dmg and support (not full healing or boon support but cc support) and tempest who is the melee set up for support.

Killyox.3950:

Nice numbers. Almost as good as my Ventari Rev with almost 130% outgoing healing :> Just different sources.

Definitely Ele healing support looks strong.

And I think raids might have spot for 2 strong supporters. 2 people pumping a lot of aoe heals for 10 players is a lot when fights are not a simple stack and burst.

Ele healing is strong even now with staff. Auto-attacking alone in water attunement is like 650 hps + 280 hps with soothing mist (and double it with soothing power). No need to play in close range with 0 mobility and weak offhand.

MadRabbit.3179:

I mean don’t get me wrong; the numbers here show that tempest has a lot of healing potential. The problem is the game just doesn’t have a place for a full healing build.

Exactly. Couldn’t have said it better myself. It’s all very impressive, but Elementalist healing has always been very impressive even with a Staff. The problem is there’s no game mode currently that would ever require such healing. The new raids might. The new fractal difficulties might. But WvW definitely won’t because it’s really not changing that much.

Well, I can recall some raid in WvW that actually used healing ele when they introduced aquatic benevolence. It felt pretty strong as a support.

rotten.9753:

Killyox.3950:

Nice numbers. Almost as good as my Ventari Rev with almost 130% outgoing healing :> Just different sources.

Definitely Ele healing support looks strong.

And I think raids might have spot for 2 strong supporters. 2 people pumping a lot of aoe heals for 10 players is a lot when fights are not a simple stack and burst.

Ele healing is strong even now with staff. Auto-attacking alone in water attunement is like 650 hps + 280 hps with soothing mist (and double it with soothing power). No need to play in close range with 0 mobility and weak offhand.

If you could ground target with water 1 staff and soothing mist had a bigger aoe on it and if swap boons had bigger aoe on them too then yes staff is a good healing support tool but sadly this is not the way staff works. For boon and or healing builds you got to be right on-top of who you want to support. That is what going to make tempest good at support its abitly to stay with melee by its added stab from earth overloades its dagger main hand with some mobility and wh healing effect. On-top of aura heals / boons stronger def.

In wvw an ranges healer i do not think will work due to have mobility every one is and the aoe effect having very small windows of aoe. Your way better off using casters as cc and field support.

Jski.6180:

If you could ground target with water 1 staff and soothing mist had a bigger aoe on it and if swap boons had bigger aoe on them too then yes staff is a good healing support tool but sadly this is not the way staff works. For boon and or healing builds you got to be right on-top of who you want to support. That is what going to make tempest good at support its abitly to stay with melee by its added stab from earth overloades its dagger main hand with some mobility and wh healing effect. On-top of aura heals / boons stronger def.

In wvw an ranges healer i do not think will work due to have mobility every one is and the aoe effect having very small windows of aoe. Your way better off using casters as cc and field support.

Are you implying that tempest has higher range?

rotten.9753:

Jski.6180:

If you could ground target with water 1 staff and soothing mist had a bigger aoe on it and if swap boons had bigger aoe on them too then yes staff is a good healing support tool but sadly this is not the way staff works. For boon and or healing builds you got to be right on-top of who you want to support. That is what going to make tempest good at support its abitly to stay with melee by its added stab from earth overloades its dagger main hand with some mobility and wh healing effect. On-top of aura heals / boons stronger def.

In wvw an ranges healer i do not think will work due to have mobility every one is and the aoe effect having very small windows of aoe. Your way better off using casters as cc and field support.

Are you implying that tempest has higher range?

No that you need to be on the melee to get the most out of ele / tempest support effects and that staff realty dose not work that well for this.

what do you think about this ?
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAoYn0XC9XidOAGOAcYilGAz9yuZHtEHhaQMQoAEAihA-T1xHABLpk7n9HOS5wcKBB4BAko6PopHIAACwNDAQKA/GaB-w

Souss.8905:

what do you think about this ?
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAoYn0XC9XidOAGOAcYilGAz9yuZHtEHhaQMQoAEAihA-T1xHABLpk7n9HOS5wcKBB4BAko6PopHIAACwNDAQKA/GaB-w

Your crit chase is kind of low and i think you would get more out of tempest def in air you also do not have a good way to generated protection for your self unless your going to get others to give it out to you. I say give it a shot in the next beta week just make sure you have the armor you want to test in your bank before hand or just try with an exotic level.

I think d/wh or d/f is more the zerg support set up and you run d/d for the roaming support or even solo. So if you chose to go d/d tempest you do not need to push healing to others as hard but self healing is very important. So signet heal and pull back on some of your healing power for more def and critical chase.

Think of it on these lines off hand for ele is more class defining then the main hand due to the way 4 and 5 skills work out and that ele has 4 diffrent verson of these skills. So dagger off hand is more of a dmg tool foces off hand is more of a self def tool and WH off hand is a pt support tool. So if your going for an all in healing build you want pt support or self def more then a dmg. If your going for more of a mix that where dagger off hand start to work better though you could keep with foces if you feel you need the def.
So for a d/d build i would go with the meta d/d set up in wvw just with a tempest twist and aura support.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAoYncMAFOgdOAWYCcYilSAz9suWnrEXgCQAoIFcAHBA-T1RQwAhUakSJGT9AgUGEVJ4Z1fAs/ApAYSoF-w

I think this is close to the d/d meta for gvg atm by going tempest your getting a bit more support and def vs the meta d/d ele. I think tempest is going to be main way to play melee mages for this class type and ele is going to be more pure back line or the very high dmg gank.

Jski.6180:

No that you need to be on the melee to get the most out of ele / tempest support effects and that staff realty dose not work that well for this.

I wonder what is your argumentation here. Staff is used as a melee weapon in pve.

rotten.9753:

Jski.6180:

No that you need to be on the melee to get the most out of ele / tempest support effects and that staff realty dose not work that well for this.

I wonder what is your argumentation here. Staff is used as a melee weapon in pve.

Ya pve any thing at 1,200 ranges or lower is melee but that just pve not much changese in that format in a lot of ways its not worth talking about at all becuse of how it is atm. If there is a changes to it (we cant tell till hot comes out) then you realty should only talk about the new spec in terms of wvw or spvp. That where melee staff dose not work that well and more often then not your aoe support dose not mix well with a range attk.

Jski.6180:

Ya pve any thing at 1,200 ranges or lower is melee but that just pve not much changese in that format in a lot of ways its not worth talking about at all becuse of how it is atm. If there is a changes to it (we cant tell till hot comes out) then you realty should only talk about the new spec in terms of wvw or spvp. That where melee staff dose not work that well and more often then not your aoe support dose not mix well with a range attk.

Warhorn doesn’t work well as well.

Jski.6180:

If you could ground target with water 1 staff and soothing mist had a bigger aoe on it and if swap boons had bigger aoe on them too then yes staff is a good healing support tool but sadly this is not the way staff works. For boon and or healing builds you got to be right on-top of who you want to support. That is what going to make tempest good at support its abitly to stay with melee by its added stab from earth overloades its dagger main hand with some mobility and wh healing effect. On-top of aura heals / boons stronger def.

In wvw an ranges healer i do not think will work due to have mobility every one is and the aoe effect having very small windows of aoe. Your way better off using casters as cc and field support.

A single stack of stability is gone in literally a second in WvW. That’s a Staff’s Static Field. Soon as you run into the follow up Unyielding Earth it’s game over during overload. Oh Armor of Earth? Okay, fair enough, you can do that once every 60-75 seconds. What mobility? It gets one leap in Fire. You just keep saying random things but aren’t putting them into context. The only way Tempest will function on the front line is if it’s in a front line group and we’re still waiting to hear why you’d bring a Tempest in the limited slots. The only unique aspect a Tempest brings is Auras, and it does so at the cost of everything else, and they aren’t very good!

Also, in WvW ranged healing works fantastic because it’s all blast/field based. I can instantaneously drop a Water field on the commander tag and everyone can blast it for massive AOE healing. 4 Guardians, 3 Warriors and etc doing blast finishers on a Staff Ele’s water field is going to kick out more AOE healing than you can possibly do as an Elementalist as Staff or Tempest. This is how it has worked for literally years at this point.

See you’re looking at this like it’s a bicycle race where you’re looking at 1 person racing against others. It isn’t. It’s a freaking car race where you have access to a whole pit crew to keep you going faster than a bicycle ever could.

Kodiak.3281:

Jski.6180:

If you could ground target with water 1 staff and soothing mist had a bigger aoe on it and if swap boons had bigger aoe on them too then yes staff is a good healing support tool but sadly this is not the way staff works. For boon and or healing builds you got to be right on-top of who you want to support. That is what going to make tempest good at support its abitly to stay with melee by its added stab from earth overloades its dagger main hand with some mobility and wh healing effect. On-top of aura heals / boons stronger def.

In wvw an ranges healer i do not think will work due to have mobility every one is and the aoe effect having very small windows of aoe. Your way better off using casters as cc and field support.

A single stack of stability is gone in literally a second in WvW. That’s a Staff’s Static Field. Soon as you run into the follow up Unyielding Earth it’s game over during overload. Oh Armor of Earth? Okay, fair enough, you can do that once every 60-75 seconds. What mobility? It gets one leap in Fire. You just keep saying random things but aren’t putting them into context. The only way Tempest will function on the front line is if it’s in a front line group and we’re still waiting to hear why you’d bring a Tempest in the limited slots. The only unique aspect a Tempest brings is Auras, and it does so at the cost of everything else, and they aren’t very good!

Also, in WvW ranged healing works fantastic because it’s all blast/field based. I can instantaneously drop a Water field on the commander tag and everyone can blast it for massive AOE healing. 4 Guardians, 3 Warriors and etc doing blast finishers on a Staff Ele’s water field is going to kick out more AOE healing than you can possibly do as an Elementalist as Staff or Tempest. This is how it has worked for literally years at this point.

See you’re looking at this like it’s a bicycle race where you’re looking at 1 person racing against others. It isn’t. It’s a freaking car race where you have access to a whole pit crew to keep you going faster than a bicycle ever could.

I have to agree with this post. Warhorn is an interesting weapon, but that’s all there is to it. Maybe there is room in pvp or roaming but in WvW zergs/raids you’re basically trying to do a job that other classes already do on the frontline, but better. Maybe you should try to play a guardian instead if you like to support and heal your allies…

I can see myself using the warhorn in PvE, just for fun. Staff is my favourite weapon so I don’t mind not having to use warhorn in WvW, but what saddens me is that the tempest traitline is very dependant of your use of the warhorn, overloads and shouts. The traitline has nothing else really to offer if you’re a staff elementalist. Gale Song is quite a decent trait I think for a staff ele in WvW, but that’s where it ends. So going tempest in WvW is simply not an option so far imo.

edit:
Also to look at the healing abilities of the tempest. Your healing is limited to 5 allies… While a waterfield from a staff elementalist is not, basically everyone in your raid can benefit from one of your waterfields (one you can neatly place where needed) by blasting it. So you can up your healing ability on your tempest, making you absolutely useless with anything else and a staff elementalist will still be more efficient.

Instead of trying to make a healing tempest, maybe look to see if you can play a different role with a tempest

Kodiak.3281:

Jski.6180:

You just keep saying random things but aren’t putting them into context.

Glad that wasn’t just me who picked up on that.

Kodiak.3281:

Jski.6180:

If you could ground target with water 1 staff and soothing mist had a bigger aoe on it and if swap boons had bigger aoe on them too then yes staff is a good healing support tool but sadly this is not the way staff works. For boon and or healing builds you got to be right on-top of who you want to support. That is what going to make tempest good at support its abitly to stay with melee by its added stab from earth overloades its dagger main hand with some mobility and wh healing effect. On-top of aura heals / boons stronger def.

In wvw an ranges healer i do not think will work due to have mobility every one is and the aoe effect having very small windows of aoe. Your way better off using casters as cc and field support.

A single stack of stability is gone in literally a second in WvW. That’s a Staff’s Static Field. Soon as you run into the follow up Unyielding Earth it’s game over during overload. Oh Armor of Earth? Okay, fair enough, you can do that once every 60-75 seconds. What mobility? It gets one leap in Fire. You just keep saying random things but aren’t putting them into context. The only way Tempest will function on the front line is if it’s in a front line group and we’re still waiting to hear why you’d bring a Tempest in the limited slots. The only unique aspect a Tempest brings is Auras, and it does so at the cost of everything else, and they aren’t very good!

Also, in WvW ranged healing works fantastic because it’s all blast/field based. I can instantaneously drop a Water field on the commander tag and everyone can blast it for massive AOE healing. 4 Guardians, 3 Warriors and etc doing blast finishers on a Staff Ele’s water field is going to kick out more AOE healing than you can possibly do as an Elementalist as Staff or Tempest. This is how it has worked for literally years at this point.

See you’re looking at this like it’s a bicycle race where you’re looking at 1 person racing against others. It isn’t. It’s a freaking car race where you have access to a whole pit crew to keep you going faster than a bicycle ever could.

Its 3 stacks of stab when your using earth overload and we do not know about the other stab for overloading though the point is to heal on auras GM not the stab GM so your only getting one added stab that you did not have before.

At best if your blasting a water your only getting part of the dmg and giving the other team time to do the same or set up for a bomb too. That why the best groups never really stop moving even when it comes to landing waters. The thing about endless movement though is you do miss a lot of water field etc.. or over all support from staff that or your simply wasting skills and dmg to hitting non best bombs targets. This is where tempest healing as a melee support comes into play. What tempest lets you do is keep the group moving with out needed to waist time and skill on blasting waters for most of the healing out put. Its still good to have an water chose that why you run WH over forces though that is the type of you must heal now or its over. What it comes down to is that tempest is allowing that pit crew word less on keeping the “car running” and more making sure it moves faster. Is it a good thing for a war to use there hammer blast skill to blast a water or to stun? Is it better to have your gurds in hammer using the cast time to do there blast when they could be rooting or putting a ring down? Or better yet why not have gurds give up the hammer and use a GS letting them move as well as wars do and not have them lag behind due to the bad leap like effect on hammer. You also remove the off chase for ppl to mess up the fields by dropping there own field to give other effects such as fire light even air fields (your going to see a lot more light/air fields coming up after HoT due to rev ground aoe stab your not going to be blasting a water with that down).

The big thing i seem to need to point out to every one is that your treating tempest as if its going to be in a vacuum where it will never interact with other classes at all and that simply not true. Not every class needs to stand 100% on there own. If any thing its better not to stand on your own when you have a real pt to work with becuse then your better for the group then simply “i can run away from every fight” type builds.

You clearly have no idea how Stability functionally works in WvW. See you have some effects like Static Field that will only affect you once with a cool down but then there’s others that will continuously strip stability off you like Unyielding Earth. This means if a wall is placed directly on top of you, you will lose a stack of Stability and if another is placed right beyond that you will lose another one. Now when you use your Elementalists properly as Staff Elementalists, plus Spectral Walls, plus Lines of Warding you can strip off 5-10 stacks of Stability in no time flat and in fact double Guardian at times with 10 stacks together can not seem like enough.

The “Engage → Refresh” model has been a staple model for a long time. You also blast as you go, of course, but Healing Rain has been and pretty much always will be the staple way to do that given the area is so large that it’s pretty much impossible to miss when placed properly.

Tempest doesn’t do anything to keep the group moving. The water field is just as static because it only goes one direction. You play WvW at all and you will see that directions can change in an instant and you’re going to send that mobile Water field floating off into the middle of no where. Tempest also only heals 5 people which in a group of 10-20 people isn’t sufficient and forces you to still drop waters to be blasted to heal the others. So the Tempest doesn’t change a thing in how the model works.

You’re 100% right! Classes shouldn’t stand on their own, and each class should be bringing something to the table. Unfortunately Tempest in it’s current design brings nothing to the table in WvW. The only thing it has to offer is Auras, which generally speaking, are fairly lackluster in light of the cost it takes to bring said auras. The amount of support you claim to bring is already being being brought today in WvW, right now, without Tempest even being released.

But hey, don’t take my word for it. Lets prepose a challenge for you Jski. T2 has started to stabilize now that us T1 servers are done ravaging your bracket and TC has started to implode. Why not during next BWE up here in a few weeks you create a video of a Tempest doing all the things you’re talking about! I mean we should never see your group stop moving right? That Tempest will just enable that zerg to never need to stop and refresh right? Lets see it in action! You have a lot of ideas and theories, lets see if they work the way you think they will.

I tryed it on an lesser healing set up more celsta d/d meta and it works very well for roaming. I watched an well know ele use it in gvg and in guild wvwing and he like it a lot.

Roaming isn’t the same scale as zerg vs zerg.

Again, when you can, please feel free to show the rest of us a video of how a Tempest kept the zerg rolling without never needing to stop to refresh.

Kodiak.3281:

Roaming isn’t the same scale as zerg vs zerg.

Again, when you can, please feel free to show the rest of us a video of how a Tempest kept the zerg rolling without never needing to stop to refresh.

See your ideal of zerg vs zerg is more of random ppl vs random ppl that realy a bad way to play wvw and only the most tankly or super glass builds work there on-top of only the GWNE classes work. When i think zerg vs zerg or group vs group i am thinking a set number of ppl 10-25 with well made pt to fill the needs. If you think you can make a class do one thing and it work in an random group it may to a point but it will never work as well as in a well made group to draw out its full potential. That is where the maximum healing potential for tempest comes out.

But ya Chemsorly was running tempest and it was more his ideal to go all in on healing. It worked in gvg setting and group vs group in wvw he like it in fact.

Jski.6180:

Kodiak.3281:

Roaming isn’t the same scale as zerg vs zerg.

Again, when you can, please feel free to show the rest of us a video of how a Tempest kept the zerg rolling without never needing to stop to refresh.

See your ideal of zerg vs zerg is more of random ppl vs random ppl that realy a bad way to play wvw and only the most tankly or super glass builds work there on-top of only the GWNE classes work. When i think zerg vs zerg or group vs group i am thinking a set number of ppl 10-25 with well made pt to fill the needs. If you think you can make a class do one thing and it work in an random group it may to a point but it will never work as well as in a well made group to draw out its full potential. That is where the maximum healing potential for tempest comes out.

But ya Chemsorly was running tempest and it was more his ideal to go all in on healing. It worked in gvg setting and group vs group in wvw he like it in fact.

Everything in all of his posts, and also in mine in our previous debates on this subject in other threads, have been describing situations and tactics for coordinated zerg vs zerg combat. You are constructing a strawman, because your argument at the moment is essentially broscience (“Some bro who is a really great elementalist told me it’s awesome”).

And still once again, even in a 10-25 guild vs guild battle, a staff elementalist still brings more value than a tempest.

MadRabbit.3179:

Jski.6180:

Kodiak.3281:

Roaming isn’t the same scale as zerg vs zerg.

Again, when you can, please feel free to show the rest of us a video of how a Tempest kept the zerg rolling without never needing to stop to refresh.

See your ideal of zerg vs zerg is more of random ppl vs random ppl that realy a bad way to play wvw and only the most tankly or super glass builds work there on-top of only the GWNE classes work. When i think zerg vs zerg or group vs group i am thinking a set number of ppl 10-25 with well made pt to fill the needs. If you think you can make a class do one thing and it work in an random group it may to a point but it will never work as well as in a well made group to draw out its full potential. That is where the maximum healing potential for tempest comes out.

But ya Chemsorly was running tempest and it was more his ideal to go all in on healing. It worked in gvg setting and group vs group in wvw he like it in fact.

Everything in all of his posts, and also in mine in our previous debates on this subject in other threads, have been describing situations and tactics for coordinated zerg vs zerg combat. You are constructing a strawman, because your argument at the moment is essentially broscience (“Some bro who is a really great elementalist told me it’s awesome”).

And still once again, even in a 10-25 guild vs guild battle, a staff elementalist still brings more value than a tempest.

Well no its very important to know what type of big fight ppl have in mind when talking about trying to make a class do a very set roll like healing tempest. If your with out a pt randomly running with a group of ppl then healing tempest or really any thing that not well rounded is not going to work. If your in a well made group and zerg then healing tempest will work. This is ture for all classes and builds for wvw. Now i do feel tempest dose have a places in this type of zerg but the all in heal build not going to work what you will see though is more roming aimed builds very close to the meta d/d ele but with tempest more in mind (d/d tempest is better in wvw becuse of the added counter ranges and higher def from the tempest line then the d/d ele stander).

Well from your point of view at least how i see it is that you have 3 – 5 ppl with one point of view and only one person with the counter argument. I am trying to keep a conversation going with a lot of ppl at the same time. I am not sure if you see this (i do my best to talk about each point by point its not easy.) So i am trying to say that ppl HAVE tested the build out and i have too to a point and it dose work but most ppl do not post positive points of view on these forms. Just read though old post your not going to see much positive that even you are trying to say.

D/d ele is dead in wvw if you want to dagger main hand your going to play tempest. If you want to go all in support healing you can with d/f (if you want another out) or d/wh (if you feel you need a water field). If you want to do dmg you go staff ele or scpter/d or f ele you do not go tempest.

My idea of Zerg vs Zerg is based on Tier 1 WvW experience facing down large, organized forces that established the GWEN meta in the first place. In most cases, in fact, I am used to dealing with two 10-25 man groups working side by side in a coordinated fashion against an opponent also doing the same with their own multiple 10-25 man forces.

In fact, I’m actually challenging you to show where your Tempest would fit into the existing meta or expand upon it. Such as talking about standard Front line groups, which are built around Guardian/Guardian/Warrior/X/X. That’s 2 slots. What does the Tempest offer for one of those two slots? You have yet to make a compelling argument why someone would take a Tempest and bump a Necromancer out of access to Stability.

So far the only reasons offered are healing, which is already handled through existing means (engage → refresh). What else does it offer? In order to offer the same benefits as existing D/D builds (Boons and Boon Share) it would require Tempest/Arcane/Water which means it will have no damage as well. It can share Auras, but Auras are arguably bad with the few good Auras being on relatively long cool downs or are proc based (IE: Get Crit, etc). In fact in every case everything that a Tempest can bring, an existing Guardian build can not only bring but also bring additional benefits as well.

GvG is entirely different from normal WvW and completely different from 40v40 scenarios. It’s scale can vary greatly (10 v 10 or 25 v 25 etc) and is a far cry from different tactics. Even the best 10 man group these days will get run over 40 people in most cases due to the stability changes (there’s too much CC for existing Stability options to cover) which is why most of them moved out of T1/T2 and down into T3 to have more smaller, coordinated fights instead of zerg action.

But please, do go on how I’m only talking about 40 random people vs 40 random people…lol

Healing isn’t rewarded in this game so why would it matter?

In ESO for example, you receive the kill experience from the people you healed. This should be the first step forward Anet takes if they ever want to create a healer role.

Jski.6180:

But ya Chemsorly was running tempest and it was more his ideal to go all in on healing. It worked in gvg setting and group vs group in wvw he like it in fact.

Well you’re avoiding the request to create a video showing tempest in action doing as you suggest it does, as an alternative how about you link that video of chemsorly.

Xillllix.3485:

Healing isn’t rewarded in this game so why would it matter?

In ESO for example, you receive the kill experience from the people you healed. This should be the first step forward Anet takes if they ever want to create a healer role.

Yep this is another issue, players can’t be just healers because they would get no rewards.

morrolan.9608:

Jski.6180:

But ya Chemsorly was running tempest and it was more his ideal to go all in on healing. It worked in gvg setting and group vs group in wvw he like it in fact.

Well you’re avoiding the request to create a video showing tempest in action doing as you suggest it does, as an alternative how about you link that video of chemsorly.

I do not make videos and you realty should not suggest ppl lie if they do not (got to love the world if your not making a video your not playing a game any more hehe.) All though chemsoly dose i have no ideal if he has a good one of being in a well made raid group though he has some of random fighting on tempest you look and see if you can get any thing from it. http://www.twitch.tv/chemsorly/v/14920649

Btw who request me to make a video before your asking. I cant very well avoid something that i had no ideal was asked.

I said next BWE you should prove all your theories by showing us in a video how well it works such as showing us a zerg that never has to stop moving with Tempest support.

You know instead of saying how things “should” work you show us how they actually work. Think of it like a science experiment. You have a theory on how a healing tempest would work and what it brings to the table but until proven it remains entirely theoretical.

Kodiak.3281:

I said next BWE you should prove all your theories by showing us in a video how well it works such as showing us a zerg that never has to stop moving with Tempest support.

You know instead of saying how things “should” work you show us how they actually work. Think of it like a science experiment. You have a theory on how a healing tempest would work and what it brings to the table but until proven it remains entirely theoretical.

That not how science works at all. You need a variables that you can control and variables you can keep constants in wvw you simply cant test what your asking for. The close to science experiment we can get is looking at the numbers of healing out put. Where healing power is the variables that you hold constant and the class is the control variable. Tempest d/d, d/f, or d/wh will out heal a ele d/d or d/f. If your talking about having dmg from a staff ele vs healing from a tempest d/x build your trying to do a bad set up becuse your talking about 2 different rolls. I guess you could look for an “S” score but i have no ideal how you go about doing that.

I cant make a video i am not that type of person and i never intend to be like that. Take or leave my point of view with what i say and numbers from even the main op.

Let me make it simple: In a few worlds why cant a tempest heal a pt?

Your data is all very helpful. But it doesn’t accurately portray a max healing potential.

You need to calculate the total hps of a rotation that incorporates all of those skills.
Or simply (add all heals together)/(the total cd of the skills).

Otherwise you are doing the maximum healing potential of individual skills. Not the aggregated healing potential for actual combat.

I hate commenting on the failure that is Tempest, but don’t forget you need to consider the train wreck vis a vis what we have today so as to see this “Glorious Healing Potential” you are getting with a Tempest.

Let’s assume the following:

You are a D/Wh Water / Arcane / Tempest vs a D/D Water / Arcane / X (Vanilla) Elementalist. (I am using D/D which is not as good as a staff, but I am more familiar with it)

All of this will base only around your numbers.

Tempest:
Healing potential:
1 Tidal Surge at 35s CD
1 Water Globe at 50s CD (We will assume 1 blast finisher that you can do by moving out of water)
1 Wash the Pain Away 25CD
1 Overload Water (Fully channeled) 25 CD (5 for initial charge + 20 to use again)
1 Rebound with lethal damage
1 Aura heal from Feel the Burn 25s CD
1 Aura Heal from Shock and Aftershock 50s CD
1 Aura heal from Flash-Freeze
1 Healing Ripple
Around 20s of Soothing Mist

Result:
The best "healing " spike would come with:
1. Cast Rebound. Heal 5k
2. Move to water: Get Healing Ripple (3,302 heal) + Regen (5s) (380 per sec) + Cure 2 Condi (Cleansing Wave and Cleansing Water).
3. Dodge roll and get Cleansing Wave (3,302 heal) + Cure 1 condi
4. Cast Tidal Surge and get 1,302 heal + Regen (8s) (380 per sec)
5. Cast Shouts that grant auras: 3x 1,773 Total: 5.319 heal
6. Cast Wash the Pain Away: Max heal of 6,510
7. Overload Water: 9,131 heal + Cure 4 condi + Regen (8s)
8. Cast Water Orb: Heal 1,880 + Move to earth and blast (1,720)
- Get around 20s of Soothing mist up (takes around 12s to cast all the above).

Conditions to pull this off:
- Allies must stay constantly together for the full duration of the casts;
- Allies must travel with Orb;
- Can only be pulled off once every 37s.
- Takes 12s to pull off and then requires 20s of staying out of water (no healing) to do again.

Result with full output:
- 12s of doing nothing but healing, with a 25s minimum efficiency cooldown afterwards (thus takes around 37s per rotation);
- 7 Conditions clear;
- Healing potential in 37s: 51,651 healing.

What does D/D Elementalist do in 12s and in 37s?
Healing routine:
1. Move to water: Get Healing Ripple (3,302 heal) + Regen (5s) (380 per sec) + Cure 2 Condi (Cleansing Wave and Cleansing Water).
2. Dodge roll and get Cleansing Wave (3,302 heal) + Cure 1 condi
3. Cast Cleansing Wave (3,302 heal) + Cure 1 condi
4. Step out of water for 8.7s
5. Come back to water and repeat 1-2.
6. Perma Soothing Mist.

- Steps 1-2 can be done a total of 2 times in 8.7s.
- In 37s total you can pull 1-2 a total of 5 times.

Conditions to pull this off:
- Allies must be within 240 radius per water attunement swap for about a second or less, then can spread out and not be movement restrict

Result:
You are doing mostly other stuff than healing.
In 8.7s you do: around 18k heal and 7 conditions cleared.
In 37s you do: around 63k heal and 16 conditions cleared.

Final comparison:

Tempest has more spike healing, but it is unnecessarily high as it heals far more than you can take in the spike time – waste of healing. Also, if you do the overload you are stuck out of water – meaning your main attribute (Healing Power) is wasted.

D/D elementalist today offers sustained healing at a very high rate, plus requires minimum time in water (bad element to camp) and opens all your utilities for other stuff.

Lastly, don’t forget if you are thinking ZvZ fights, Staff far outperforms Tempest for one main reason: Water field is stationary. The main healing comes from blasting it and with several ppl doing the blasting, a moving water field is bad for this.

Jski.6180:

I cant make a video i am not that type of person and i never intend to be like that. Take or leave my point of view with what i say and numbers from even the main op.

Let me make it simple: In a few worlds why cant a tempest heal a pt?

I explained above why a Tempest healer won’t be effective over the current WvW model up above. Hell Azel crushed it why Tempest is awful for this. It’s still there if you want to read it. You continue to insist that it can work and is very effective and comes with a number of benefits. I’m challenging you to prove it. You seem to now say you can’t, or won’t prove your theory on a Tempest WvW healer.

So in the end you have made it very simple. You have a lot of ideas how a Tempest healer would work but you have no proof to it’s actual viability.

Azel.4786:

I hate commenting on the failure that is Tempest, but don’t forget you need to consider the train wreck vis a vis what we have today so as to see this “Glorious Healing Potential” you are getting with a Tempest.

Let’s assume the following:

You are a D/Wh Water / Arcane / Tempest vs a D/D Water / Arcane / X (Vanilla) Elementalist. (I am using D/D which is not as good as a staff, but I am more familiar with it)

All of this will base only around your numbers.

Tempest:
Healing potential:
1 Tidal Surge at 35s CD
1 Water Globe at 50s CD (We will assume 1 blast finisher that you can do by moving out of water)
1 Wash the Pain Away 25CD
1 Overload Water (Fully channeled) 25 CD (5 for initial charge + 20 to use again)
1 Rebound with lethal damage
1 Aura heal from Feel the Burn 25s CD
1 Aura Heal from Shock and Aftershock 50s CD
1 Aura heal from Flash-Freeze
1 Healing Ripple
Around 20s of Soothing Mist

Result:
The best "healing " spike would come with:
1. Cast Rebound. Heal 5k
2. Move to water: Get Healing Ripple (3,302 heal) + Regen (5s) (380 per sec) + Cure 2 Condi (Cleansing Wave and Cleansing Water).
3. Dodge roll and get Cleansing Wave (3,302 heal) + Cure 1 condi
4. Cast Tidal Surge and get 1,302 heal + Regen (8s) (380 per sec)
5. Cast Shouts that grant auras: 3x 1,773 Total: 5.319 heal
6. Cast Wash the Pain Away: Max heal of 6,510
7. Overload Water: 9,131 heal + Cure 4 condi + Regen (8s)
8. Cast Water Orb: Heal 1,880 + Move to earth and blast (1,720)
- Get around 20s of Soothing mist up (takes around 12s to cast all the above).

Conditions to pull this off:
- Allies must stay constantly together for the full duration of the casts;
- Allies must travel with Orb;
- Can only be pulled off once every 37s.
- Takes 12s to pull off and then requires 20s of staying out of water (no healing) to do again.

Result with full output:
- 12s of doing nothing but healing, with a 25s minimum efficiency cooldown afterwards (thus takes around 37s per rotation);
- 7 Conditions clear;
- Healing potential in 37s: 51,651 healing.

What does D/D Elementalist do in 12s and in 37s?
Healing routine:
1. Move to water: Get Healing Ripple (3,302 heal) + Regen (5s) (380 per sec) + Cure 2 Condi (Cleansing Wave and Cleansing Water).
2. Dodge roll and get Cleansing Wave (3,302 heal) + Cure 1 condi
3. Cast Cleansing Wave (3,302 heal) + Cure 1 condi
4. Step out of water for 8.7s
5. Come back to water and repeat 1-2.
6. Perma Soothing Mist.

- Steps 1-2 can be done a total of 2 times in 8.7s.
- In 37s total you can pull 1-2 a total of 5 times.

Conditions to pull this off:
- Allies must be within 240 radius per water attunement swap for about a second or less, then can spread out and not be movement restrict

Result:
You are doing mostly other stuff than healing.
In 8.7s you do: around 18k heal and 7 conditions cleared.
In 37s you do: around 63k heal and 16 conditions cleared.

Final comparison:

Tempest has more spike healing, but it is unnecessarily high as it heals far more than you can take in the spike time – waste of healing. Also, if you do the overload you are stuck out of water – meaning your main attribute (Healing Power) is wasted.

D/D elementalist today offers sustained healing at a very high rate, plus requires minimum time in water (bad element to camp) and opens all your utilities for other stuff.

Lastly, don’t forget if you are thinking ZvZ fights, Staff far outperforms Tempest for one main reason: Water field is stationary. The main healing comes from blasting it and with several ppl doing the blasting, a moving water field is bad for this.

Your calculations for tempest need slight tweaking.

The water glob assumption is not an assumption you can make. You have already assumed evasive arcana and warhorn, the base number of blasts is at least two. One from arcana in earth, and the second from sand squall. And given that people prefer dagger over scepter, the base number of blasts jumps to three.

Then on the subject of cleansing wave, you can perform it at least twice, since you are in water attunement for that long. As a reminder the cooldown is 10 seconds. So only step 1 of your second example can be done every 8.7 seconds.

So we should add to your tempest calculation 3,302+5160 (1720*3)
And we should reduce from your d/d calculation 6,604 (as evasive arcana has a 10 second cd per attunement, you added two extra cleansing waves that do not belong).

Leaving us with 56396 as the supposed 37s total for the d/d ele.

And the suppose 37s total for tempest is 60113.

@ Azel.4786 Your missing a few heals. All aura will heal for about 1k so all overloades and water overloade heals for an added 1k. Your shouts (for now doable heal due to applying 2 auras though that will changes but the heal on auras seem to be getting higher numbers.) That also means that dagger main hand is 2 heals with its 2 auras and corn of cold is a heal that you seemed to miss too (not sure why).
Full out put dose not need you to be in water true full out put means you need to be in all atument to overload them and the shouts heals / auras become filler heals in between.

I am not sure where you are getting your numbers from and if your added the +15% for out going heals effect for being all in on water. You could added another 32% to that if you realty go all in on healing. So i think your painting a very flaw ideal of what a d/d ele can do for healing vs what a tempest can do with healing. (the d/d ele going to be in water most of the time to get the most out of its 3? heals with the passive reg where tempest NEEDS to use its water atument heals (5?) more of burst heal for during pushes or after pushes yet is able to be in any atument and still do good heal.

D/d ele only heals when they are in water so they need to camp an atument more then tempest dose. Keep in mind an tempest can go d/d too all though i think WH is a better healing tool.

That and tempest will get very close if not applying perma forst auras on there pt and protection so a build in -43% dmg taken for there team (if you build for def on your tempest its -60% taken vs 600 ranges and -50% taken from out side that ranges.) Something even an d/d ele cant pull off this is why d/d ele is dead in wvw.

A build though its hard for me to justifiably going arcain unless you have some build to criting and i am not sure if 20% base is worth it so i tend to avoid arcain line but use earth line so tempest water earth more my build for the healing set up max ish healing power high def/hp and ok power but no crit chase. There is magi armor type but you give up soo much def wish there was a healing power main persion / def set.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJBIhdSfJ0fJ25AYhJwhJWKBM3zabduScBGABgiUwJYEA-TVhZwAtUCKSPgZVV+pWBAlfAA-w

Is more of the arcain set up but i think its def is too low.

Jski.6180:

Something even an d/d ele cant pull off this is why d/d ele is dead in wvw.

D/D is not dead in WvW because it lacked survivability it’s fallen out of the meta because it doesn’t offer anything that the existing combination of classes don’t already provide. There’s no scenario where a Front Line Guardian (either Staff/GS or GS/Hammer) doesn’t already perform better.

The Tempest is no different and people have yet to explain what new thing the Tempest can do that isn’t already sorted by the existing combination of classes/meta.

One could argue this is a bit unfair because we already know that the Tempest doesn’t bring anything new table so the question is more rhetorical to point out the uselessness of the Tempest.

Also the reason why you have to go Arcane with Tempest is the minute you don’t the D/D base Elementalist gets very competitive support wise in terms of boon output and healing. Elemental Attunement is an incredibly powerful source of boons, specifically Protection. Also Evasive Arcana also pretty much is one of the best sources of healing in the game.

Again, this just points out that the base Elementalist is many ways on par with or superior to the Tempest in many existing scenarios. You simply don’t see them doing things like Healing roles because, simply put, it’s considered a poor use of an Elementalist.

Kodiak.3281:

Jski.6180:

Something even an d/d ele cant pull off this is why d/d ele is dead in wvw.

D/D is not dead in WvW because it lacked survivability it’s fallen out of the meta because it doesn’t offer anything that the existing combination of classes don’t already provide. There’s no scenario where a Front Line Guardian (either Staff/GS or GS/Hammer) doesn’t already perform better.

The Tempest is no different and people have yet to explain what new thing the Tempest can do that isn’t already sorted by the existing combination of classes/meta.

One could argue this is a bit unfair because we already know that the Tempest doesn’t bring anything new table so the question is more rhetorical to point out the uselessness of the Tempest.

D/D for ele is very dead in wvw. Your way better going staff or scepter/x for ele in wvw.

Gurds lack perma up time of a lot of effects they have some healing but its mostly for them self then other ppl they cant give protection for a full fight often there fields get in the way they have very few good soft cc that are viable. Tempest has peram up times for a lot of effects and there healing is a lot more useful and there simply a lot more of it on the tempest bar. The tempest also has real soft cc from frost aura that is going to hit both the other side melee and back line due to non ranges limitations for the effect. Tempest dose not have a lot of non useful blasting fields such as no light fields that get in the way.

Just having something new for the newness dose not realty make tempest any weaker in the meta or not. Just becuse you can use a long bow dose not make you fit in the meta more it just means you can use a longbow yet your still going to be best in the melee group. Although tempest dose have new effects that work well in the melee tram meta.

Jski.6180:

Kodiak.3281:

Jski.6180:

Something even an d/d ele cant pull off this is why d/d ele is dead in wvw.

D/D is not dead in WvW because it lacked survivability it’s fallen out of the meta because it doesn’t offer anything that the existing combination of classes don’t already provide. There’s no scenario where a Front Line Guardian (either Staff/GS or GS/Hammer) doesn’t already perform better.

The Tempest is no different and people have yet to explain what new thing the Tempest can do that isn’t already sorted by the existing combination of classes/meta.

One could argue this is a bit unfair because we already know that the Tempest doesn’t bring anything new table so the question is more rhetorical to point out the uselessness of the Tempest.

D/D for ele is very dead in wvw. Your way better going staff or scepter/x for ele in wvw.

Gurds lack perma up time of a lot of effects they have some healing but its mostly for them self then other ppl they cant give protection for a full fight often there fields get in the way they have very few good soft cc that are viable. Tempest has peram up times for a lot of effects and there healing is a lot more useful and there simply a lot more of it on the tempest bar. The tempest also has real soft cc from frost aura that is going to hit both the other side melee and back line due to non ranges limitations for the effect. Tempest dose not have a lot of non useful blasting fields such as no light fields that get in the way.

Just having something new for the newness dose not realty make tempest any weaker in the meta or not. Just becuse you can use a long bow dose not make you fit in the meta more it just means you can use a longbow yet your still going to be best in the melee group. Although tempest dose have new effects that work well in the melee tram meta.

Your refusal to concede to the overwhelming arguments against your beloved Tempest is somewhat admirable.

I get it. You probably pre-ordered the expansion. It’s natural to want to defend the value of your purchases. Nobody wants to admit they spent money on something that is going to be in some ways sub par.

However, you should really just throw in the towel at this point, man. Your viewpoints and opinions and ideas lack a lot of WvW experience and are just constantly grasping at these hypothetical Tempest benefits with no big picture context.

This kind of misinformation isn’t helping anyone.