I don’t play broken builds , certainly not ones that require as little skill in WvW as the D/D Ele build.
And what exactly is “the D/D Ele build” you’re referring to? The bunker spec, or the roamer spec or the balanced spec? And please expand on the skill part too. Which other classes/builds require a similar skill level to play well, not just RTL in, do crap and RTL out.
I’m willing to bet that should other classes adopt a similar approach to their builds they’ll be able to do what we do but likely better, there’s nothing stopping other classes from gearing p/v/t + clerics + 3 stun breakers as well.
Seems people are just kitten off about our mobility.
Huh?..still with this WvWvW non-sense…bro I rarely play PvE, being used to paid tournaments I assume our views on balance are… quite different to say the least, have you got any idea of what does it mean to play against opponents of equal or superior skill level?
The truth is..you’re the one with head deep buried in the sand, here I am again discussing balance with people who have never even touched real PvP, dude…I played against thieves who can burst you down in 1/2s ..bunker or non bunker, played against necros who don’t know the meaning of leaving an enemy with a single boon up, played against mesmers who will daze at 100% every attempt of healing ( not like the daze nab spammers from zerg vs zerg), played against skilled non GS warrior newbsm, warriors using mace/hammer build or some other crap….there are dozen after dozen of skilled players out there, you’d know it if you’d play paid against QP 100+ opponents ( higher than me)
I can let you scrimm against pro from other professions if you wish so, who will make you cry for mommy after 5s, you can really forget your “Lol god mode WvWvW bunker build” against them.
What about it?Wanna bet that you won’t show up anymore on these forums after this test?..You really think to be in god mode when playing ele? I’d be glad to prove you wrong…
Hi Champ, I wondered when you would hop onto my message in yet another wonderfully condescending message. Link the source. Never the nerf’s I am hoping for? You mean you don’t think they will touch the builds mobility, or tweak traits? I’ve played the build, it’s currently to strong, you can bury your head in the sand all you like. I don’t play broken builds , certainly not ones that require as little skill in WvW as the D/D Ele build. It’s not crying, its stating the obvious … perhaps you should play against the build before staunchly defending it.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Quick-update/page/3#post354773
“Having said that, Dagger/dagger Ele needs help. Some defensive Ele specs are too good. Some of their sustained damage is too low, while some spike builds are pretty rough. Keeping an eye on it means we’re not going to nerf/buff it without thinking very carefully about it”
It’s from a few months ago before 0/10/0/30/30 became popular when staff and s/d was the way to go and eles were a free kill in all forms of pvp. They’ve already tried to improve burst with small changes like air VI and I believe they will continue to make small, controlled, and iterative changes as they’ve stated.
And you’re right. The bunker builds will generally take less skill to play because it is defensive in nature to allow for mistakes to be made and not die from them. Eles wouldn’t all build defensively if they actually had some way to survive as a glass cannon. Other than cantrips and arcane shield (all with extremely long cooldowns and take up a utility slot), they don’t have any. They don’t have blocks, stealth, clones (to a lesser extent), and have both the lowest base hp and armor. Defensive boons are our only accessible form of damage mitigation.
I also believe it will be very difficult to nerf bunker builds for reasons I’ve already stated (boons). I can see a slight increase in cd to rtl due to the fact that it has a similar cooldown to other class’s leaps but travels 1200. Or maybe not because most of those leaps also do something else other than leap and do damage. But that would be it for mobility nerfs because the other forms of mobility other classes also have and Anet only makes very small changes every balance run.
As for traits… well most of them outside of water and arcane are already useless especially since a lot of them only work 25% of the time. Also the attunement cooldown and vitality from their respective trees are almost a necessity to have the versatility Anet claims eles to have and be effective. They can nerf the only useful traits though, but that could be a problem.
So where can the nerfs be applied? Nerfing weapon skills will gimp the profession and all of the other builds. Nerfing already useless traits won’t work. Nerfing the best traits; the traitlines that give the ele versatility… nope. Nerfing boons will tick everyone off. I suppose they could nerf healing power though.
@Arheundel: While historically I’ve agreed with many things you’ve said since day one I think you’re far to quick to dismiss WvW as a form of pvp. Not everyone runs in a noob zerg and not every player is a noob. Just because it is accessible to everyone without proving your worth in tournaments I’m fairly certain that many tier 1 and tier 2 servers have guilds who could easily hold high QP and tournament wins if the actual game mode had any interest to them.
Furthermore you’re not dealing with a sterile environment as found in 5v5 formats. We have a broader set of engagements and our own set of problems to deal with as WvW players, for you to simply dismiss those of us who prefer server vs server as our form of pvp is below you. Please stop being so dismissive and elitist, it does you no honour man, you’re better than that.
I see a lot more exaggerations/flames than useful comments. There’s no need to behave like children just because we’re on the internet.
Or…
Some of us know how to counter them, have played the build and still agree it’s going to get nerfed. Claiming the standard D/D Ele has no damage output is a lie, simply because a build doesn’t spam large numbers doesn’t mean it doesn’t have damage output.
That’s the necromancer’s secret. No (very few) large numbers, lots of missing health.
Or…
Some of us know how to counter them, have played the build and still agree it’s going to get nerfed. Claiming the standard D/D Ele has no damage output is a lie, simply because a build doesn’t spam large numbers doesn’t mean it doesn’t have damage output.
Little to no output/little offensive capability.. No profession has zero damage output. You misunderstood the message.
D/D bunker/tanky builds (or ele bunker builds in general) have pitiful damage output, because they focus mainly on defensive capabilities with mobility, and already have to cope with low base damage. The bunker/tanky builds are not made with damage output in mind, and it clearly shows.
@Arheundel: While historically I’ve agreed with many things you’ve said since day one I think you’re far to quick to dismiss WvW as a form of pvp. Not everyone runs in a noob zerg and not every player is a noob. Just because it is accessible to everyone without proving your worth in tournaments I’m fairly certain that many tier 1 and tier 2 servers have guilds who could easily hold high QP and tournament wins if the actual game mode had any interest to them.
Furthermore you’re not dealing with a sterile environment as found in 5v5 formats. We have a broader set of engagements and our own set of problems to deal with as WvW players, for you to simply dismiss those of us who prefer server vs server as our form of pvp is below you. Please stop being so dismissive and elitist, it does you no honour man, you’re better than that.
I’m well aware that my comments can irritate even the wrong people and I’m sorry for that, still the fact remain that WvWvW is not real PvP because people of different lvl and armour can partecipate therefore it’s ridicolous for somebody to ask balance changes based on such a format, changes that would influence people who enjoy other aspects of the game, where we haven’t got the luxury to RTL away to safety everytime kitten hit the fan and definetely we can’t hold against 2 players..let alone 5 as others claim.
I’m certain that you can find skilled players in WvWvW, nobody stop a tournie team to go roam in Borderland for sure, but only in WvWvW you will have people “beating” 5-10 people at once ( lol ), that’s one of the reason Anet stated that they “don’t” care about WvWvW in the sense that everybody goes there.
E.G a lv 65 thief in green armor face and lose against a lv 80 ele in orange armor, the thief then come to the forum and ask for nerfs on ele, the ele get nerfed and people who play sPvP ( where level/equipment is equal ) get screwed up as well…that’s silly
Hi Champ, I wondered when you would hop onto my message in yet another wonderfully condescending message. Link the source. Never the nerf’s I am hoping for? You mean you don’t think they will touch the builds mobility, or tweak traits? I’ve played the build, it’s currently to strong, you can bury your head in the sand all you like. I don’t play broken builds , certainly not ones that require as little skill in WvW as the D/D Ele build. It’s not crying, its stating the obvious … perhaps you should play against the build before staunchly defending it.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Quick-update/page/3#post354773
“Having said that, Dagger/dagger Ele needs help. Some defensive Ele specs are too good. Some of their sustained damage is too low, while some spike builds are pretty rough. Keeping an eye on it means we’re not going to nerf/buff it without thinking very carefully about it”
It’s from a few months ago before 0/10/0/30/30 became popular when staff and s/d was the way to go and eles were a free kill in all forms of pvp. They’ve already tried to improve burst with small changes like air VI and I believe they will continue to make small, controlled, and iterative changes as they’ve stated.
And you’re right. The bunker builds will generally take less skill to play because it is defensive in nature to allow for mistakes to be made and not die from them. Eles wouldn’t all build defensively if they actually had some way to survive as a glass cannon. Other than cantrips and arcane shield (all with extremely long cooldowns and take up a utility slot), they don’t have any. They don’t have blocks, stealth, clones (to a lesser extent), and have both the lowest base hp and armor. Defensive boons are our only accessible form of damage mitigation.
I also believe it will be very difficult to nerf bunker builds for reasons I’ve already stated (boons). I can see a slight increase in cd to rtl due to the fact that it has a similar cooldown to other class’s leaps but travels 1200. Or maybe not because most of those leaps also do something else other than leap and do damage. But that would be it for mobility nerfs because the other forms of mobility other classes also have and Anet only makes very small changes every balance run.
As for traits… well most of them outside of water and arcane are already useless especially since a lot of them only work 25% of the time. Also the attunement cooldown and vitality from their respective trees are almost a necessity to have the versatility Anet claims eles to have and be effective. They can nerf the only useful traits though, but that could be a problem.
So where can the nerfs be applied? Nerfing weapon skills will gimp the profession and all of the other builds. Nerfing already useless traits won’t work. Nerfing the best traits; the traitlines that give the ele versatility… nope. Nerfing boons will tick everyone off. I suppose they could nerf healing power though.
Yes ty, the truth is this profession is extremely frustating.
Full of design flaws, the most rubbish traits across the entire board, the worst elites in the entire game and so on and so on.
They made a profession with 10k max HP, in a game where toughness still count for almost nothing and most professions can deal over 10k in dmg within a 2-3s rotation.
I got quickly tired of playing glass cannon hit and run bullkitten, what was the point of doing all that work where a profession could do the same but with 100% efficiency ( aka the thief) while having double the survivability( aka stealth).
Already after BWE2 I started concentrating on making a build based on survival seen as the dmg was kitten and the dmg nerf on scepter was completely unreasonable( the double nerf of the arcane skills on both dmg and CD was the epitome of stupidity by Anet)
In the end I ended up using 20 water and 10 earth always , no matter what, I can run even with 0 arcana but 20 water is a must, furthermore I rarely move away from amulets with toughness in them, actually in very few cases I use berseker staff cannon( when I’ve got a death wish)
When Anet will finally give me proper dmg where I don’t need to use trigonometry to land a kittening dragon’s tooth then we can talk about reducing this “uber” survivability the ele possess
Seriously I need to calculate the enemy next position every kittening time to land a single dragon’s tooth while playing Mozart with the keyboard, during the same time a newb warrior come and deal the same dmg with the auto-attack..then I should get nerfed? WTF?
(edited by Arheundel.6451)
After coming back for the first day since about 2 months ago, I can’t see that elementalist has changed much. My S/D burst build is still exactly the same as it was. Blatantly overpowered. Why were people QQing 2 months ago about eles being weak, and now, with almost nothing visibly changed that I can see, they’re borderline OP?
Seems like people just learned how to play.
Or…
Some of us know how to counter them, have played the build and still agree it’s going to get nerfed. Claiming the standard D/D Ele has no damage output is a lie, simply because a build doesn’t spam large numbers doesn’t mean it doesn’t have damage output.
Sorry to break your bubble but….the developers have already stated this:
1) D/D was/is in need of help ( aka no nerfs incoming)
2) Ele auto-attacks are too low in dmg ( aka buffs incoming)
3) Ele burst is very rough ( aka buffs incoming)
4) Traits….soon to be buffedSource : Developer John Peter
In the end other weapon sets will be buffed, d/d may be changed ( never the nerfs you’re hoping for though) and more traits/utilities will become available..and the end result?
The qq will never end, it’s easier to cry when losing than get better XD
This. All the noobs crying for nerfs are usless, because the devs already said that they’re gonna buff d/d eles especially in the damage department.
When someone asks you if you’re a god, you say YES!
I love you!
Huh?..still with this WvWvW non-sense…bro I rarely play PvE, being used to paid tournaments I assume our views on balance are… quite different to say the least, have you got any idea of what does it mean to play against opponents of equal or superior skill level?
The truth is..you’re the one with head deep buried in the sand, here I am again discussing balance with people who have never even touched real PvP, dude…I played against thieves who can burst you down in 1/2s ..bunker or non bunker, played against necros who don’t know the meaning of leaving an enemy with a single boon up, played against mesmers who will daze at 100% every attempt of healing ( not like the daze nab spammers from zerg vs zerg), played against skilled non GS warrior newbsm, warriors using mace/hammer build or some other crap….there are dozen after dozen of skilled players out there, you’d know it if you’d play paid against QP 100+ opponents ( higher than me)I can let you scrimm against pro from other professions if you wish so, who will make you cry for mommy after 5s, you can really forget your “Lol god mode WvWvW bunker build” against them.
What about it?Wanna bet that you won’t show up anymore on these forums after this test?..You really think to be in god mode when playing ele? I’d be glad to prove you wrong…
Have you got any idea of what it means to play against 2x 3x and 4x your numbers as a small man team in WvW? You assume that WvW isn’t competitive, you assume that balance issues in WvW don’t matter just as much as those in spvp. How about I repeat myself one last time, you apparently are to daft to get it the first three times, I could give a rip about Spvp. I don’t play it, it’s boring .. I consider spvp to be the weaker form of pvp in this game. That’s not the point of this thread though, so how about you cut the Spvp bravado and save it for someone who actually thinks it means anything.
It would also help if you stopped assuming so much when you reply to me, no where did I call ele’s god mode. No where did I ask for rampant nerfs. Their mobility needs to be tweaked, which can be accomplished with an increase RTL and trait tweaks. The trait tweaks are needed for the Elementalist as it is anyway. It amazes me you compare playing the Ele well to “playing mozart with your keyboard” the build is easy to play for anyone worth his salt.
“Having said that, Dagger/dagger Ele needs help. Some defensive Ele specs are too good. Some of their sustained damage is too low, while some spike builds are pretty rough. Keeping an eye on it means we’re not going to nerf/buff it without thinking very carefully about it”
THIS is the quote that makes you think they aren’t going to nerf D/D Ele? That quote practically states Anet is AWARE that the D/D ele needs to be tweaked. The only thing they said was sustained damage needs some help, which logically means a hit to burst, certainly with the comment on burst. Good to see Anet has already acknowledged the problem and instead of knee jerking is going to balance the class.
(edited by Smitten.3076)
THIS is the quote that makes you think they aren’t going to nerf D/D Ele? That quote practically states Anet is AWARE that the D/D ele needs to be tweaked. The only thing they said was sustained damage needs some help, which logically means a hit to burst, certainly with the comment on burst. Good to see Anet has already acknowledged the problem and instead of knee jerking is going to balance the class.
I think most eles would gladly give up some of their bunker power for an actually viable damage spec.
Huh?..still with this WvWvW non-sense…bro I rarely play PvE, being used to paid tournaments I assume our views on balance are… quite different to say the least, have you got any idea of what does it mean to play against opponents of equal or superior skill level?
The truth is..you’re the one with head deep buried in the sand, here I am again discussing balance with people who have never even touched real PvP, dude…I played against thieves who can burst you down in 1/2s ..bunker or non bunker, played against necros who don’t know the meaning of leaving an enemy with a single boon up, played against mesmers who will daze at 100% every attempt of healing ( not like the daze nab spammers from zerg vs zerg), played against skilled non GS warrior newbsm, warriors using mace/hammer build or some other crap….there are dozen after dozen of skilled players out there, you’d know it if you’d play paid against QP 100+ opponents ( higher than me)I can let you scrimm against pro from other professions if you wish so, who will make you cry for mommy after 5s, you can really forget your “Lol god mode WvWvW bunker build” against them.
What about it?Wanna bet that you won’t show up anymore on these forums after this test?..You really think to be in god mode when playing ele? I’d be glad to prove you wrong…
Have you got any idea of what it means to play against 2x 3x and 4x your numbers as a small man team in WvW? You assume that WvW isn’t competitive, you assume that balance issues in WvW don’t matter just as much as those in spvp. How about I repeat myself one last time, you apparently are to daft to get it the first three times, I could give a rip about Spvp. I don’t play it, it’s boring .. I consider spvp to be the weaker form of pvp in this game. That’s not the point of this thread though, so how about you cut the Spvp bravado and save it for someone who actually thinks it means anything.
It would also help if you stopped assuming so much when you reply to me, no where did I call ele’s god mode. No where did I ask for rampant nerfs. Their mobility needs to be tweaked, which can be accomplished with an increase RTL and trait tweaks. The trait tweaks are needed for the Elementalist as it is anyway. It amazes me you compare playing the Ele well to “playing mozart with your keyboard” the build is easy to play for anyone worth his salt.
..He’s actually been talking more about Tpvp..
While i dissagree that WvW is a higher form of pvp. I also dont agree that it isnt real pvp ( since it involves killing players)
Tpvp is a higher form of pvp because it brings the people who seek to change the meta together, in a controlled environment. ( meaning you dont have half a map to run and you arent fighting people with large stat differences, and/ or food buffs)
It brings coordination and team play to a higher level that Zerging people in a 12v12.
While WvW has its own problems.
Calling for a balance change in a place that isnt controlled, like tpvp and spvp, is illogical and pretty stupid..
One thing that should have been done..
Spvp and WvW should share the same balancing.
Things that are OP in Spvp, are going to be OP in WvW, but work just where they need to in PvE.
While the area for this is small, the small changes that they make for spvp should carry over to WvW.
And the devs should continue balancing around Tpvp.
And alot you QQ’ers still havent seen a S/D..
Thats what the pro’s play.
Sorry, but I have an 80 d/d ele. It’s stupid to have such survivability and mobility on one character. Makes my other cahracters feel useless.
i think you’re confusing mobility with survivability. dont pretend the devs balance the professions based on WvWvW where mobility does equal survivability.
think about this from a pve/dungeon/spvp/tpvp perspective where you have no where to run lol
this is just as sad as the bads begging for thief nerfs because they go into wvw as a level 10 with zero toughness and get killed in 3 hits while they stand still and never dodge
Sorry to break your bubble but….the developers have already stated this:
1) D/D was/is in need of help ( aka no nerfs incoming)
2) Ele auto-attacks are too low in dmg ( aka buffs incoming)
3) Ele burst is very rough ( aka buffs incoming)
4) Traits….soon to be buffedSource : Developer John Peter
In the end other weapon sets will be buffed, d/d may be changed ( never the nerfs you’re hoping for though) and more traits/utilities will become available..and the end result?
The qq will never end, it’s easier to cry when losing than get better XD
I should look at the dev tracker from time to time. I don’t want to miss more good news like this. I’m not expecting the changes soon, but it’s still good to know.
Complaints about dagger ele are officially a learn to play issue for me. I have been in extremely close fights with every other profession. I have been destroyed by good necros, mesmers and guardians. I had a 30+ minute fight with a ranger last night. I can’t remember the last time I beat my engineer friend in structured. If I beat 5 people in wvw by myself, I know for a fact that those people are just terrible players because it only takes one competent player to kill me. If 6 people can’t catch me, I know that they are bad, didn’t spec to have the ability to catch/snare fleeing foes or didn’t time those abilities properly. I deserve to get away from them in all 3 of those cases.
In WvW, a staff is more useful in large scale battles anyway. Being hard to kill because you run away doesn’t help your server. Demolishing siege and nuking choke points with a staff is what helps win battles.
as i answered another of these bs threads show me an D/D ele that can do this kinda destruction or stfu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rjidD-RP7Nk
ps: guildwars 2 is not a 1v1 dual system game
[quote=1184347;Aether McLoud.1975:]
Anybody else here remember the RTL nerf in GW1? Seems like the exact same situation to me.
as i answered another of these bs threads show me an D/D ele that can do this kinda destruction or stfu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rjidD-RP7Nk
My thoughts exactly, linked the same video in the “to glass cannon or not” thread.
Am I the only one wondering why no-one has learnt to dodge RTL +updraft combo . Do that and it’s gg……
Once people learn the right counters D/D’s are half as good. Remember how many kills a thousand blades got before people learnt to counter it…..
Am I the only one wondering why no-one has learnt to dodge RTL +updraft combo . Do that and it’s gg……
Once people learn the right counters D/D’s are half as good. Remember how many kills a thousand blades got before people learnt to counter it…..
Because people in game learnt to evade rtl…..and also churning earth…
i played d/d ele for first time last night in spvp and didn’t die once and i dont even know what im doing. I would just RTL/UD then swap around different attunements spamming buttons then mist/RTL/port if i was in danger. I still prefer my phantasm spec mesmer though.
With regards to mobility, a d/d ele cannot swap weapons in combat and is stuck at melee range with the lowest armor and health pool. Rtl, burning speed (short) , lightning flash (45s utility), and magnetic grasp (needs a target, short, buggy and easily dodged) are essentially the only gap-closing skills in this weapon set. Compare this to thieves who have inf arrow, shadowstep, steal (target), heartseeker, and stealth (gives you a huge advantage over the enemy on where you can reposition yourself). I think the thief’s mobility is fine, and in comparison, d/d ele mobility is fine.
Honestly, these threads are a carbon copy of what happened to thieves a month ago. People get riled up over getting beat by a noob playing these slippery classes that seemingly take no skill. But who is the worse player if you’re losing to Fotm builds? Anyone can pick up a bunker build and go buck wild without dying if the opponent also has no clue what they’re doing. I hate to say it but this is definitely a l2p issue.
I haven’t seen players at a higher skill level complain about this build; it’s powerful in the right hands, but far from OP and unbeatable. Bandwagon d/d eles are a free kill if you know what you’re doing.
i played d/d ele for first time last night in spvp and didn’t die once and i dont even know what im doing. I would just RTL/UD then swap around different attunements spamming buttons then mist/RTL/port if i was in danger. I still prefer my phantasm spec mesmer though.
Its easy to last forever just by using RTL, mist form, armor of earth and lightning flash. The harder part is to actually kill someone.
Full PVT/clerics + monk/water runes + 0/10/0/30/30 results by definition in mediocre damage.
The only class I have an easier time killing people as than my ele is my mesmer. They’re the two strongest professions from my own impression.
..He’s actually been talking more about Tpvp..
While i dissagree that WvW is a higher form of pvp. I also dont agree that it isnt real pvp ( since it involves killing players)
Tpvp is a higher form of pvp because it brings the people who seek to change the meta together, in a controlled environment. ( meaning you dont have half a map to run and you arent fighting people with large stat differences, and/ or food buffs)
It brings coordination and team play to a higher level that Zerging people in a 12v12.While WvW has its own problems.
Calling for a balance change in a place that isnt controlled, like tpvp and spvp, is illogical and pretty stupid..One thing that should have been done..
Spvp and WvW should share the same balancing.
Things that are OP in Spvp, are going to be OP in WvW, but work just where they need to in PvE.
While the area for this is small, the small changes that they make for spvp should carry over to WvW.
And the devs should continue balancing around Tpvp.And alot you QQ’ers still havent seen a S/D..
Thats what the pro’s play.
Yep and I’ve been talking about WvW , we can drag this thread down into the mud and exchange blows on why I think tpvp/spvp is boring and doesn’t demonstrate half the skill of WvW but that’s besides the point. I couldn’t disagree more that calling for a balance change in WvW is illogical.
At this point I’m just going to have to start putting people on ignore that think tpvp/spvp is the end all balance test. I really never have understood why anyone thinks a controlled 5v5 environment is more a demonstration of skill than open world pvp. To each there own though, you keep enjoying your spvp and I’ll keep enjoying my WvW.
I couldn’t care less about your opinion since it has been generally accepted that PvP stand for Player VS Player and the highest skill level of PvP is achieved in a controlled environment where all opponent start from an equal base and distinguish themself solely thx to the their skills…no special gear..no special weapons…END!
It’s like somebody trying to convince people that pigs can fly …pigs can’t fly..END!
..He’s actually been talking more about Tpvp..
While i dissagree that WvW is a higher form of pvp. I also dont agree that it isnt real pvp ( since it involves killing players)
Tpvp is a higher form of pvp because it brings the people who seek to change the meta together, in a controlled environment. ( meaning you dont have half a map to run and you arent fighting people with large stat differences, and/ or food buffs)
It brings coordination and team play to a higher level that Zerging people in a 12v12.While WvW has its own problems.
Calling for a balance change in a place that isnt controlled, like tpvp and spvp, is illogical and pretty stupid..One thing that should have been done..
Spvp and WvW should share the same balancing.
Things that are OP in Spvp, are going to be OP in WvW, but work just where they need to in PvE.
While the area for this is small, the small changes that they make for spvp should carry over to WvW.
And the devs should continue balancing around Tpvp.And alot you QQ’ers still havent seen a S/D..
Thats what the pro’s play.I couldn’t disagree more that calling for a balance change in WvW is illogical.
Lets put it this way.
In a game where you have the option to balance around fewer variables or constant changing variables.
Which would be better?
In WvW thier is constant change, and a higher amount of variables that come into play vs that of a controlled environment.
In WvW we have NPC’s
Culling
Gear differences
Level Differences
Space Differences
Travel speed differences
Player skill differences
and the variable of siege equipment.
While this leads to a fun pvp environment.
For balancing it could be a nightmare.
Vs balancing a game mode that has fewer variables
Player skill differences
Travel speed differences
You can reach the source of problems much faster when you dont have to take into account more things that could influence certain situations.
A better example would be the popularity of condition pistol thieves in wvw vs that of tpvp..
A thief specced for stealth has an easier time in wvw, because of culling and the other random npc’s it can jump around to stay perma stealthed, as well as a larger area to run ( and hit npc’s along the way)
Vs in Tpvp, they cant stealth as often because they dont help generate points (cap) their TTK is low, and culling doesnt as huge a factor in that game mode ( vs the invisible zergs you can have in wvw), and they dont have random npc’s for miles.
I understand you dont like spvp or tpvp, but saying a place with more variables should also be accounted in a balancing descision vs a place where their are fewer, is still and largely, illogical.
For the sake of perspective, why do you think balancing descisions should also be made with WvW in consideration, especially when so many variables cannot be controlled?
For the sake of perspective, why do you think balancing descisions should also be made with WvW in consideration, especially when so many variables cannot be controlled?
Simplistically?
Consider the healing nerf had never hit Ele’s , now consider that build being use in conjunction with an organized guild in WvW. As you have already stated, there are carry overs between the spvp and wvw balance passes, ideally all balance changes would and should affect each environment differently. ( PvE, WvW, and Spvp ) Specs that work wonderfully in spvp are inadequate in WvW, where survivability reigns supreme. Many survivable builds have been nerfed due to spvp, those builds were necessary components of small man groups in wvw. For example Bunker Guardians pre-nerf were an amazing, albeit boring, group utility build for WvW. Thje illogic of balancing with WvW in mind ( from you ) seems to stem from it being difficult due to many variables. Difficult doesn’t equate to stupid, I think WvW balance is even more important than Spvp given the variables. In spvp you know the odds, the builds are typically standard fare, it’s a caged enviroment , winning and losing is based on control/point mechanisms, respawns are fixed.
Truly the only unique variables to WvW are size, siege equipment , and culling. Level , Gear, Skill , Space, and Travel variables aren’t a factor necessary for balance.
Level isn’t a balance concern, the system auto 80’s.
Gear equally isn’t an issue, there isn’t a noticeable gear treadmill in this game.
Space doesn’t factor into profession balance as nothing surpasses a 33% swiftness or 1200 range with the exception of Siege engines.
( Grey area )Travel speed isn’t a concern either, abilities cap at 1200 range and swiftness at 33%. Perma swiftness builds have been around since beta, that won’t change so travel speed clearly isn’t an issue. This is the only grey area because clearly it has been a point in balance changes, but given travel speed is capped I don’t consider it “balance concern” within organized WvW.
For the remaining variables :
Seige Engines shouldn’t and don’t factor into Profession balance in WvW, they are separate entirely as only projectile reflections/blocks benefit them. ( With the exception of Golems)
So when it all boils down, there really aren’t as many variables in WvW that matter besides the size of the fights.
It would seem that ideally balance should first start with WvW given its difficulty , and the carry over be applied to spvp instead of the reverse. Fix the difficult first , then see where the cards fall on the easier path .. not vice versa.
Keep in mind I run small group roaming / zerg busting ; so my WvW views are perhaps drastically different from those that ride the Zerg. I play competitively, every engagement worth note is against enemy forces 2-4x my groups amount.
i played d/d ele for first time last night in spvp and didn’t die once and i dont even know what im doing. I would just RTL/UD then swap around different attunements spamming buttons then mist/RTL/port if i was in danger. I still prefer my phantasm spec mesmer though.
My friend in Peru has been playing the game as a staff elementalist and just recently hit 80. He tried the staff in WvW and while it was decent, I can tell he was curious about my build after seeing what I could do with it against groups of players. He bought some masterwork gear and D/Ds and joined me in some roaming.
The two of us led a group of seven enemy lvl 80 guild members on a comedy chase around the south supply camp. They needed to keep chasing us because we kept killing their dolyaks. They couldn’t stop us. Even with a ballista trying to hit us (we just keep moving and it misses and movement is key for a D/D ele) we managed to kill all 7 after separating them from the tanky guardian they had since he was a bit slow. The one that gave us the most problem was actually a ranged very glass cannon ranger but we focused him down first. Might stacking with two ele’s is comedy.
He was blown away and is now investing in some exotic armor.
I honestly think this type of survival shouldn’t be possible. The only other class that can do this is a thief exploiting some serious stealthing and it doesn’t put out this type of damage since he’s mostly stealthed.
Again, this is an issue with WvW and how mobile you can be. PvP is a whole different thing and I want people to stop bringing it up. Anet balances these two modes of PvP differently anyways. There’s no reason they can’t increase RTL cool down and half the distance mistform can travel in your downstate.
-GW2 wiki-
WvW is designed to accommodate players that would not normally participate in PvP. For instance, the high player limit means that a new player can get involved without immediately feeling pressured to contribute. In addition, objectives are available for a variety of group sizes, so players don’t need to be members of dedicated guilds in order to be productive. There are also PvE objectives in the world such as skill challenges, events and jumping puzzles.
No need for more explanations, WvWvW is not PvP…end!
Do you want changes? A reasonable person would ask for PvE/PvP split because if you like it or not WvW is considered PvE in terms of rules applied…end!
(edited by Arheundel.6451)
I couldn’t care less about your opinion since it has been generally accepted that PvP stand for Player VS Player and the highest skill level of PvP is achieved in a controlled environment where all opponent start from an equal base and distinguish themself solely thx to the their skills…no special gear..no special weapons…END!
It’s like somebody trying to convince people that pigs can fly …pigs can’t fly..END!
Take a chill pill dude. Gettin a little too mad about this stuff. The air of elitism and “real pvp” isn’t helping anyone take you seriously.
Look at EvilSardine mesage history: he use the forum 90% times to repeat “Ele D/D too OP” “RTL” “MistForm” “The only other class that I want nerfed is a thief” (yes, his Ele is OP and can beat everything but he is scared of the class with less tou/vit if played berserker).
Draw your conclusions.
Guys, please let’s keep this civil and on the subject on how to balance out the elementalist. Not about if PvP versus WvW.
Anyone have any suggestions on balancing this class a bit for WvW?
Talking to the likes of you would accomplish nothing! And if you would have read my post properly, you’d know that I’m not interested at all in you opinion…still I wonder what you hope to accomplsih in crying everytime things don’t go your way
I presume that for “elitist” you talk about people who don’t sit in the corner and start crying when things don’t go their way…yeah definetely I’m one of them, it makes me an elitist the fact that I’ve been playing this profession since that time when it was considered a free kill..or a free badge in WvWvW?!..and it makes you a “non-elitist” the fact that now you consider eles being OP despite not huge buffs being received
I’d suggest everyone just ignore the derailing from Arheundel, as this is primarily a WvW issue and thread his opinion is meaningless.
This is the Elementalist sub-forum, the moderators have moved this thread in the ele section..not the wvw section, be quiet shhh!
If WvW is not PvP then are XXX Invaders I was fighting a bit ago bots or something? I all ways thought they where players from another server but according to Mr. tPvP…(Where you can win a match by not killing people but keeping them out of a circle area longer than they keep you out) That is not player vs player for some reason.
I’m not convinced about the OP, but Arheundel is most definitely a troll.
If WvW is not PvP then are XXX Invaders I was fighting a bit ago bots or something? I all ways thought they where players from another server but according to Mr. tPvP…(Where you can win a match by not killing people but keeping them out of a circle area longer than they keep you out) That is not player vs player for some reason.
@Mike Ferguson
We wanted to make WvW fun and easy to get into, so there’s no level grinding required—you can just hop into the battle using your normal PvE character, regardless of what level you are.
When fighting in the Mists, you’ll be using your regular PvE character and the gear you’ve acquired in your adventures through Tyria. In the Mists, players all fight at the same level. Any character below level 80 will be adjusted so they are roughly equivalent in power to what they would be at level 80. This makes combat among characters of any level not only possible, but actually fun!
Even better, you continue to gain experience and new items while playing in the Mists. Players you kill will drop loot for you just like slain monsters in PvE. The player that was killed doesn’t lose any of their own equipment—that would suck—so you’ll never need to worry about losing your favorite rare weapon if you are defeated in WvW. Even better, any gear that is dropped for you will be level appropriate. You can improve your character’s weapons and armor as you fight!
Character level adjustments have a limit, however. The level-adjustment system won’t let a level 1 character go head-to-head against a level 80 character with much chance of victory—a level 80 character is still going to have more bonuses on their gear and access to a full complement of utility and elite skills that players just don’t have at lower levels. This is not to say that the high-level character will one-shot the level 1 player, but they will have a clear advantage.
And the point is…WvWvW is not PvP!
You can take it as an insult as you like, the fact remain that no balance suggestion can be made based on such a format, I do not care to be considered Pro , TPvPer or whatever, Anet simply can’t split a skill for three different formats and that would means that ele would be nerfed even at high tier PvP where there is no whining at all…and all this because a newb running with survival build( healing amulet+healing runes) can outlast and elude a mindless zerg in a huge PvE map..absurd
as i answered another of these bs threads show me an D/D ele that can do this kinda destruction or stfu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rjidD-RP7NkMy thoughts exactly, linked the same video in the “to glass cannon or not” thread.
yer the worst thing is all these kittening whiners keep whining but NONE!!! of them can provide the slightest proof to their statement, its empty whine with absolutely no proof -.-
its like the “flavor of the month” its some awesome player that found a really good build, did the math and made it work, then shared it with the masses, and since 95% of all player are kitten and got no idea how to build their char’s they are now getting rolf by a cookie cutter build which is easily countered by those who know how.
just looking forward to some of the actually sick good worriers or mesmas starting to share their full builds and every one using them. oww the cry for nerfs xD
even worse the build is very situational to have any effect at all.
its set on the primis that you meet some one you are the counter too (aka most popular builds of the other classes) and that you meet them alone+- and that they lack the intellect to move into their team/zerg/call reinforcement when they are not build for 1v1 combat -.-
its so situational to actually work and give an advantage that it hurts and still people dont see this, all they see is “ow i lose 1v1 when i am in a build which isnt set up to counter the build i am facing. then that build most be op!.. it cannot be that he is a better player that perfected the setup or that i am simply in a build which he specificly made his to counter, NO its becouse its op even though its uselessin 90% of all situations he will meet and he will have to not engage and move away for a better oppotunity.”
(edited by Erebus.7568)
And the point is…WvWvW is not PvP!
You can take it as an insult as you like, the fact remain that no balance suggestion can be made based on such a format,
You’re so absurd its almost comical. WvW is PvP , and plenty of balance suggestions and changes have been done with WvW balance in mind directly.
Sigh the balancing we have seen in WvW has been based around the team and not individual builds. So far portal and healing to the group are all that have been hit. In competitive pvp eles have been hit with 50% reductions on some of our strongest healing skills much like mesmers with confusion.
The other glaring issue is the overall lack of player knowledge. If ranger goes pure melee sword/greatsword it has more mobility than we do. Warrior just going GS is enough but if the go pure melee then yes still more mobility than us. Guardians going sword/gs would be less mobile in each set but combined would equal us.
The fact is our purely melee set is balanced against other purely melee sets. the sad part if if you nerf it would be a result of whining not balance.
Please for your own good look at the movement skill list for Sword and Greatsword
Guardian
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashing_Blade
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap_of_Faith
Warrior
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Savage_Leap
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirlwind_Attack
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rush
Ranger
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swoop
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hornet_Sting
to (flip the camera 180 degrees to get full movement)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Monarch%27s_Leap
And the point is…WvWvW is not PvP!
You can take it as an insult as you like, the fact remain that no balance suggestion can be made based on such a format,You’re so absurd its almost comical. WvW is PvP , and plenty of balance suggestions and changes have been done with WvW balance in mind directly.
Last I checked the “status of the game” discussion had TPvPers in it…now WvWvW players…XD
Everything is taken into consideration when doing balance passes, including but not limited to, s/tpvp and wvw.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/The-teams-that-work-on-PvP-WvW-Balance/first#post818357
The very idea that an environment that you can control less should be balanced first is absurd.
Consider a system where the variables are binary (true/false). With n variables, there are 2^n possible combinations. Adding a single variable will double the complexity. That is, the complexity of the system grows exponentially with every variable. Now instead of a binary outcome, the variables can take on a spectrum of different outcomes and you have a balancing nightmare.
To achieve even the current state of balance without making all the classes play exactly the same in all of pvp and pve must have taken a huge effort in and of itself. Your view of balance and what you consider to be variables are only what Anet has presented to you and your opinion based on your experience with the game. Only Anet has the complete statistics and knowledge of all the voodoo magic (e.g. the explanation on culling by a developer in wuvwuv) that happens behind the scenes for the game. A system you don’t even know about could very well play a critical role in balance.
The fact that you can enter wvw at any level with any gear, traits, and utilities means they must be taken into consideration because of the fact Anet specifically allows this. It is simply overshadowed by the fact that a huge part of wvw is a numbers game. This is a way to introduce players who otherwise wouldn’t touch pvp into a form of pvp where no single player, whether they’re exceptionally skilled or completely new, decides the outcome of the battle. The skilled player can’t dominate a wvw map on his own and the less skilled player isn’t a complete burden. But the fact that everyone plays on an even ground in s/tpvp means it is the perfect area to balance first. Why else must a scientist control variables when performing an experiment?
Small iterative changes every month really is the best way to do balance for 2 main reasons. First they won’t completely wreck the system as a whole since variables are not completely independent and could cascade into a disaster. Second, there is a whole month to see how the changes affect the system as a whole which not only includes wvw and xpvp, but probably also many other factors (voodoo magic). Imagine if Anet had listened to the cries of the ele players in the first few month. I think this forum would currently look a lot more like the thief forums.
tl;dr
Anet balances for xpvp/wvw/pve all at the same time. Whether anyone thinks they should or shouldn’t is a different matter and holds little weight in actual balance problems. This thread here won’t amount to major changes to the elementalist. We will still be able to outlast low burst builds when we build defensively while boasting one of the best mobility skills in the game.
Sigh the balancing we have seen in WvW has been based around the team and not individual builds. So far portal and healing to the group are all that have been hit. In competitive pvp eles have been hit with 50% reductions on some of our strongest healing skills much like mesmers with confusion.
The other glaring issue is the overall lack of player knowledge. If ranger goes pure melee sword/greatsword it has more mobility than we do. Warrior just going GS is enough but if the go pure melee then yes still more mobility than us. Guardians going sword/gs would be less mobile in each set but combined would equal us.
The fact is our purely melee set is balanced against other purely melee sets. the sad part if if you nerf it would be a result of whining not balance.
Please for your own good look at the movement skill list for Sword and Greatsword
Guardian
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashing_Blade
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Leap_of_FaithWarrior
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Savage_Leap
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirlwind_Attack
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/RushRanger
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swoop
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hornet_Sting
to (flip the camera 180 degrees to get full movement)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Monarch%27s_Leap
Are you really posing that Guardians and Rangers have more mobility than D/D Ele’s?
Guardian with Sword/GS: ( Sword is a weak weapon for Guardians currently btw)
600 range on each ability, Flashing blade requires a target.
600 range on LoF, no target.
2 Abilities and a weapon swap to accomplish 1 RtL.
Rangers :
Hornet Sting — 130 Range and requires a target. // Monarch’s Leap 600 Range.
Swoop – 1,100 Range
You really want to compare the mobility ?
Edited * ML doesn’t require a target, corrected.
(edited by Smitten.3076)
tPvP is false method to place balancing on anyway. For one thing a ton of items do not function in sPvP/tPvP that work in WvW. So balancing around just sPvP/tPvP is insane and why even have others when not going to even consider WvW. It would be fine if there was not such double standard at Anet with different calss. Thief/guardian got a split in pvp/pve and WvW when getting nerfs. Mesmers/Eng didn’t when nerf hit in same patch and both nerfs hurt PvE.
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