Guild Wars 2

go ahead and nerf mistform and when other stuff gets nerfed aswell dnt come QQ on the forums like ur doing now lmao. GL AND HF.! (ill be waiting to say i told u so )

Creslin, I can’t fathom why you think this rises to the level of something that is even worth discussing when there are many other issues with the class that remain unaddressed.

But since you seem so passionate about it, then what the heck: lets get rid of mist form completely and replace it with something that is actually useful most of the time. Most of the time, Mist Form merely lets me chose where I want to die. Sometimes, for variety, it lets me die near one of my allies so that they can also die trying to save me. I would gladly give up the highly specific keep defense scenario that you find so offensive if it meant we got something on par with what guardians get.

But this should be so far down the list of priorities that one needs a telescope to see it from the top of the list.

You guys, this reminds me of a story..
Once upon a time..
A bunch of people came to the forums to QQ about backstab..
They flooded the forums for months until one day a golden dev stepped out and said.
“we are looking into it”
Their was much rejoicing and slowly the river of tears dried and drained..

Then…on the glorious day of the patch..
The QQ’rs , with their celebration hats on read the patch..
And beheld that backstab wasnt touched..
The world ended in a giant flood..

A-Net wont do clutch nerfs.
Especially for WvWvW..

I think you guys are blowing this way out of proportion…this isn’t a “clutch” nerf that would drastically affect Ele playstyle. It would just make it so you can’t abuse vapor form to be unkillable in keep sieges…that’s it.

I’m honestly baffled by how many people think this is such a big deal. In my mind, it is just an irritating gimmick that seems clearly imbalanced when compared to other classes, and should be fixed.

Also, the uber spike BS build was nerfed via the change to assassin’s signet.

grondag.7810:

Creslin, I can’t fathom why you think this rises to the level of something that is even worth discussing when there are many other issues with the class that remain unaddressed.

But since you seem so passionate about it, then what the heck: lets get rid of mist form completely and replace it with something that is actually useful most of the time. Most of the time, Mist Form merely lets me chose where I want to die. Sometimes, for variety, it lets me die near one of my allies so that they can also die trying to save me. I would gladly give up the highly specific keep defense scenario that you find so offensive if it meant we got something on par with what guardians get.

But this should be so far down the list of priorities that one needs a telescope to see it from the top of the list.

Vapor form is an insanely useful downed state ability. You should try warrior or ranger, where your #2 downed state just stuns for like a second, big whoop. With vapor form, I can delay my death for a fairly long amount of time, all things considered.

Lordryux.9785:

go ahead and nerf mistform and when other stuff gets nerfed aswell dnt come QQ on the forums like ur doing now lmao. GL AND HF.! (ill be waiting to say i told u so )

ERMAHGERD! They changed vapor form so you can’t go through portals with it anymore…completely broken now!!!

I mean…seriously? This isn’t QQ. This is just not being so ridiculously blinded by the profession I play, as to not realize when something is clearly imbalanced.

SuiRyuJin.4615:

there is a time limit on vapor form so therefore a max distance they can travel. heres a few things for u 2 do.

1. drag them away from the gate when they come out and then down them with pull skills
2. dont be so close to the gate and instead range it and force the d/d ele to move out of his vapor form travel distance to gate in order to even hit u.
3. not all ele use mist form straight away, a possible shot at immobilizing them
4. not sure if this works, but was it line of warding from guardian? the skill that physically blocks people from walking through, dunno if it works while on vapor form though. someone know or can try it?

as for people not being smart enough for doing that. well game balancing hopefully is not based on the action of no skill players.

So your counters are…

1 and 2 – walk away from your ram and let the ele kill it while you keep hoping that he comes after you.

3 – hope the ele is extremely bad.

4 – randomly have a staff guardian with you that pops line of warding at the exact right moment.

Yeah…this is why the skill needs to be fixed lol.

Also guys, I want to point out. I am an elementalist. This is not a QQ post. This is just me realizing that one of MY abilities is overpowered.

I don’t see why this needs a nerf. Sure it’s annoying that the ele can keep running out and maybe downing 1 or 2 people that happen to be too close to the nukes, then run back in and res, but when it comes down to it if the attacking zerg is large enough the keep is going to get taken regardless of the fact that there is an “unkillable” ele guarding it. Once the gate is down that ele is going down too.

And like people have said, even if the ele downs a few players, the rest of the zerg will just res them which basically makes the ele’s attacks pointless. There is no way the ele will have time to pull off a full kill.

Creslin.1758:

I think you guys are blowing this way out of proportion…this isn’t a “clutch” nerf that would drastically affect Ele playstyle. It would just make it so you can’t abuse vapor form to be unkillable in keep sieges…that’s it.

I’m honestly baffled by how many people think this is such a big deal. In my mind, it is just an irritating gimmick that seems clearly imbalanced when compared to other classes, and should be fixed.

Also, the uber spike BS build was nerfed via the change to assassin’s signet.

……….No…
no…

no it wasnt nerfed..
do you pvp at all or….

The “I play Elem” as introduction to call for a nerf is cute. I doubt anyone believes you.

Besides, it doesnt actually help you to save the keep from being taken. It just allows “some sort” of hit and run fight, I’m not sure how more frustrating than self rezing rangers or low cooldown theives teleport it is.

I think you guys are blowing this way out of proportion…this isn’t a “clutch” nerf that would drastically affect Ele playstyle. It would just make it so you can’t abuse vapor form to be unkillable in keep sieges…that’s it.

I’m honestly baffled by how many people think this is such a big deal. In my mind, it is just an irritating gimmick that seems clearly imbalanced when compared to other classes, and should be fixed.

Also, the uber spike BS build was nerfed via the change to assassin’s signet.

It sounds like “ima fkg ninja thief runnin fkg ninja glass canon stealth build I can fkg kill everyone before they can see me with culling issues AHA! Why cant I get 100% fkg killin blow on elems near a keep! TIS 0P FKG NERF FFFS²!!!!”

• Each downed increases downed penalty, which gives it an effective 60 sec CD.
• Downed does NOT clear conditions.
• You can be blocked while in mist.
• It is more effective to equip a staff and nuke from the walls anyway.
• Other downed #2’s are situationally better than Ele; this is the #1 situation when the Ele #2 is good.

Not seeing a problem.

i was about to reply but Mjh already covered almost all ._.

I’ll add a couple of things:

- you can do the same with mistform skill before dying (downed skill is vapor form)
-moving from slightly less than 3 seconds is comparable to thief skill from downed
-necro also has similar skills

If you analyze other classes, vapor form does almost the same, wit the gain of few meters that doesn t make the difference ….considering the penalty and you cannot attack.

Creslin.1758:

So your counters are…

1 and 2 – walk away from your ram and let the ele kill it while you keep hoping that he comes after you.

3 – hope the ele is extremely bad.

4 – randomly have a staff guardian with you that pops line of warding at the exact right moment.

Yeah…this is why the skill needs to be fixed lol.

Also guys, I want to point out. I am an elementalist. This is not a QQ post. This is just me realizing that one of MY abilities is overpowered.

please provide me a counter to enduring pain warrior coming out murdering someone, walking back, full hp
whats the counter for a thief walking through gate on stealth after walking out of said gate BS/HS someone down?
whats a counter for a mesmer portaling the entire defense squad on u with mass invisibility casted?

before u go mention things like, burst down the thief before he can run, or aoe the portal, a good thief knows when he needs to stealth to survive, a good thief wont die to burst since he would expect it knowing its the only way to kill him, therefore prepare accordingly. just because a portal is there doesnt mean enemy appear instantly and with mass invis, u wont be seeing them especially with rendering issues.

as for letting the ele kill the ram. there are plenty of range seiges for killing a gate i can just as easily counter ur ram with a cata behind the gate or having a warrior drop down from wall with reduce dmg stats on to interrupt then enduring pain and aoe the crap out of the area, then just walk right back into the gate with full hp. should be more worried about people aoeing from the wall or behind gate for the ram. i murder plenty of people on ram and ram itself simply by aoeing the gate from the back side safer and more efficient

not everything in the game has an easy counter. and there are things that simply DONT have counters other then simply surviving and not letting the enemy kill u. yes i am an ele 2 and while i think vapor form can be cheap, its nothing compared other skills out there. i lost count on how many people survived because of stealth either from their own skill or another player’s stealth. how many warriors got away while killing someone simply because enduring pain is cheap. until such time everything else is slightly more balanced comparatively i think ill hold on to my.. little tiny edge that only works at a gate, when i am downed and has at least 1 skill as hard counter, others as soft counters.

mjharrison.3209:

• Each downed increases downed penalty, which gives it an effective 60 sec CD.

I just want to clarify this:
Each time you go down your downed penalty is increased, this is true even if you go down when Vapor Form ends (bug?), which means after using Vapor Form once you have 2 downed penalty “points” not one, that means that if you go out before the 60secs pass and be downed, when your second Vapor Form ends you are very close to insta-death. Insta-death happens at 5 downed points, which means once you are out for the second time you HAVE to wait those 60seconds (the cd resets when you are downed) before going out again or you will be insta-killed

Oh and obviously the Elementalist has by far the worst downed skills of any prof I’ve tried so far… Guardians, Thieves, Mesmers, Warriors, Rangers have far better downed skills than the Ele, at least they can do something with their skills….

creslin, i honestly wouldn’t mind at all if you couldn’t go through portals with mist form, and eles may be “unkillable” if you do go out and fight, but what’s 1 ele going to do vs. a full fledged zerg anyway? it’s not as if you can do much anyway, and in a fight for a keep, you have to wait for downed sickness to CD each time before you venture out only to get instakilled…i’d imagine this method doesn’t do any more than standing on top of the walls autoattacking things.

Creslin.1758:

But there is one thing that an Elementalist can do right now, that is SO cheap, that even I think it has to be nerfed. And that thing is being able to use downed 2 and vapor right inside a structure you are defending.

This essentially means that an Ele defending a keep in UNKILLABLE. They can run out there, do all their D/D burst in the zerg, get downed, then just float right inside the keep portal, revive themselves and do it again.

I really don’t think any class should have a get out of death free card like this. Even mine.

Thought?

I realy disagree with you mate, in fact I believe our class have the weakest downed state in the hole game. A warrior can do the same thing as you described using his Vengence and a Dodge, providing he know’s what he’s doing.

well just use it.
consider it a valid ability.

It will be interesting to see 20 ele’s jump down and go through a dagger rotation on the folks on the door every minute or so. the range on vapor form is pretty limited.

I agree that it is very powerful. Obviously every class has an edge while fighting near a gate, but mistform reduces the risk dramatically.

That is why I switch to staff when i am alone defending or there are no arrow carts around , and go daggers as soon as i see a manned cart. Look for small packs while on top of the wall, RTL / updraft them, unleash all cooldowns in fire, switch to water and get within about 800 range of the door. If things get hairy, teleport / armor.

I think it’s the confusion plus the knockback that makes it so effective. If the professions were more balanced than they are, i’d say nerf it, it is unfair.

Crunchy Gremlin.5798:

well just use it.
consider it a valid ability.

It will be interesting to see 20 ele’s jump down and go through a dagger rotation on the folks on the door every minute or so. the range on vapor form is pretty limited.

If there were 20 eles inside a keep, you wouldn’t be able to get within 1200 range of the door anyway.

Even if you pulled off some miracle and managed to out duel 20 of the best wall fighting class in the game, they can just AoE the back of the door and instakill anyone attempting to build rams.

Creslin.1758:

I think you guys are blowing this way out of proportion…this isn’t a “clutch” nerf that would drastically affect Ele playstyle. It would just make it so you can’t abuse vapor form to be unkillable in keep sieges…that’s it.

I’m honestly baffled by how many people think this is such a big deal. In my mind, it is just an irritating gimmick that seems clearly imbalanced when compared to other classes, and should be fixed.

Also, the uber spike BS build was nerfed via the change to assassin’s signet.

Actually, it’s quite the opposite: most of us don’t think this is a big deal, and you’re blowing this way out of proportion. Ele’s downed state going through towers isn’t going to change the outcome of which server wins. Plus, you may not have experiemced them, but there are many counters to prevent an ele from vapor forming into a tower as ppl have mentioned.

Btw most thieves consider the assasin’s signet change a buff…

Having a hard time believing anyone wants a nerf for ele. Not sure if srs or.. Well 20 or even 5 eles in one spot sounds very unreal, unless it’s an organized ele mistform guild of doom.

Sigh, I should just roll warr/guard/mesmer.

A simple fix without having to remove the skill: Increase the Cool down after its been used

That way you wont get (even though ive never seen it happen) people bursting skills going down and using it to get back into keep and repeating – though it already has a cool down, i have used it and gone down again and its been on cool down

Maybe increase it to say 20seconds or something?

its already 20 secs ._. i mean do you even tried the skill just to get an idea on how it works?

It seems you miss so many details on the situation described that you just have a wrong idea on a non existent issue.

LordByron.8369:

its already 20 secs ._. i mean do you even tried the skill just to get an idea on how it works?

It seems you miss so many details on the situation described that you just have a wrong idea on a non existent issue.

Really? i have used it gone right back down again and its had like 6dseconds left on its cool down. Maybe make it so that if you are in combat then the Cool down is longer? Or maybe even make it so that the more its used the longer the cool down becomes and it resets after say 1minute or something?

For Example:

1st Use 20Second Cool down
2nd Use 25second cool down
3rd Use 30second cool down

Honestly, I fail to see the problem here.
Sure, this is stronger than many other #2’s. In one specific situation. So what? Things don’t have to be evenly balanced for every possible situation, do they?

Solori.6025:

Creslin.1758:

I think you guys are blowing this way out of proportion…this isn’t a “clutch” nerf that would drastically affect Ele playstyle. It would just make it so you can’t abuse vapor form to be unkillable in keep sieges…that’s it.

I’m honestly baffled by how many people think this is such a big deal. In my mind, it is just an irritating gimmick that seems clearly imbalanced when compared to other classes, and should be fixed.

Also, the uber spike BS build was nerfed via the change to assassin’s signet.

……….No…
no…

no it wasnt nerfed..
do you pvp at all or….

Assassin’s signet used to give +50% damage to your next attack. Now it gives +15% to your next 5. The old way could produce a ridiculously large amount of damage on the BS hit.

Creslin.1758:

I think it has to be nerfed.

Thought?

I am sure you are kidding, so I will overlook nearly any previous statement
and so I will repeat again what I already said in occasion of the “weapon swap” issue: why penalize Elementalist for a game design fault? the skill is nearly decent, it’s the system which is faulty. Developers could add a countdown to enter/exit, and voila problem solved.

Creslin.1758:

Are you sure that roots will affect vapor form (downed state 2)? I have done vapor form many, many times and NEVER been CC’d in it. I’ve also attempted to root other ele’s in vapor form with magnetic grasp, but it never worked.

You have to root them BEFORE they go into vapor form. Vapor form won’t break an immobilize on the player.

Not possible, downed clears all conditions, vapor form can be triggered immediately on downed.

This here is the crux. I tend to agree somewhat with the OP, it’s basically impossible to stop and D/D ele’s can jump down, AOE like mad, and then escape death with an almost 100% certainty (thanks to vapor form). I use it all the time.

That being said, I don’t think it should be nerfed cause it’s not that game breaking. Really, how many enemies in the zerg can you down in 5 seconds anyway? And chances are they’ll get revived too. It also gives D/D ele’s not manning siege (or running supply) something to do when standing on keep walls. I’ll often do this when first pushed up onto the walls, then after I revive myself inside the gate take a moment to switch to staff and get back up there to AOE.

Creslin.1758:

Here is the problem with the Ele downstate…it requires no CDs, it requires no skill to use. Literally, all you do is, go out, wreak some havoc, and get downed. And you can repeat this ad infinitum.

The thing is, you can’t repeat this over and over again.

Why? Vapor form does have a cool down, so thinking you can just vapor run in, run back out, get downed, and run back in again more than likely won’t work.

Secondly, you can be immobilized, stunned, and crippled while in vapor form. There should always be people guarding their door, to keep people from coming out and going in. If you do this, you will kill any ele’s or anything else that trys to get in.

Lastly, every time you get downed you loose health. Basically, you have a max of about 3 goes unless you have someone standing there to heal you, which a lot of the times there aren’t. There is usually one person on a cata hitting the door and everyone else is on the walls.

That being said, vapor form is fine as is.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Really? i have used it gone right back down again and its had like 6dseconds left on its cool down. Maybe make it so that if you are in combat then the Cool down is longer? Or maybe even make it so that the more its used the longer the cool down becomes and it resets after say 1minute or something?

For Example:

1st Use 20Second Cool down
2nd Use 25second cool down
3rd Use 30second cool down

If Anet considers this to be a problem, this idea won’t fix it. I’m not sure everyone in here understands what’s going on here?!?

You jump down, AOE like crazy, and the instant you’re downed spam #2. You’ll vapor form, un CC’d (cause you hit it instantly upon going down) and now you have 2-3 seconds to get inside the keep. Easy Peasy, it is almost entirely unstoppable. I do this ALL THE TIME. I think a line of warding right in front of the gate is the ONLY thing that can stop it.

I consider it a perk of the class (since we can’t weapon swap, it gives us D/D’s something to do when we can’t get outta combat to staff swap); I don’t think it needs a serious nerf.

A good compromise “nerf” if they felt it was warranted, would be to give vapor form a 1-2 second delay upon entering downed state. This way it could still be used to avoid an immediate stomp, but would give the opposing side a small window of opportunity to immobilize the downed player before he/she can pop vapor form. But all-in-all, this is fairly small potatoes and shouldn’t warrant attention until far more bug fixes and content patches are implemented…

The thing is, you can’t repeat this over and over again.

Why? Vapor form does have a cool down, so thinking you can just vapor run in, run back out, get downed, and run back in again more than likely won’t work.
…
Secondly, you can be immobilized, stunned, and crippled while in vapor form.

That’s not what the OP is referring to.

Scenario: I’m a D/D standing on the keep walls. I wait for the opportune time, jump down, AOE like all hell (burning speed, ring, drake’s breath, earthquake, churning if I can pull it off, frozen blast, cone of cold, etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum). I just need to make sure I stay close to the gate. As soon as I am downed, all conditions are cleared and I immediately spam #2 to pop vapor form (it’s instant, so they basically can’t get a fresh immobilize/bleed/chill, etc., on you). Viola, I am free to reenter the keep gate.

Once on the other side, I’ll be in the downed state again, but no one can hit me. So I res using skill #4 (or via teammates), rally, then heal up while running back to the top of the keep walls. By the time I get to the top, basically all my skills are off of cooldown again, so I jump down and repeat. By the time I go down again, vapor form is more than ready, so I can easily escape once again.

Wash, rinse, repeat. You can do this over, and over, and over again untouched basically. I do it all the time. Line of warding might be the only skill that can stop this (by placing it directly in front of the gate as soon as I go down), but I don’t know since I haven’t encountered anyone smart enough to try it…

Edited to add: Although I agree with the OP about it’s power, I don’t think it warrants a significant nerf at this time.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

LordByron.8369:

its already 20 secs ._. i mean do you even tried the skill just to get an idea on how it works?

It seems you miss so many details on the situation described that you just have a wrong idea on a non existent issue.

Really? i have used it gone right back down again and its had like 6dseconds left on its cool down. Maybe make it so that if you are in combat then the Cool down is longer? Or maybe even make it so that the more its used the longer the cool down becomes and it resets after say 1minute or something?

For Example:

1st Use 20Second Cool down
2nd Use 25second cool down
3rd Use 30second cool down

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vapor_Form

here it is….tooltip is clear 20 seconds recharge.

Also 3 vapor form would result in insta death, but the reality is you won t see an ele using a second either…..

I really think many players confuses MIST with VAPOR form…..
Solution change the colour of the 2 mists XD

For the rest, you are saying that the skill is situationally (with really rare case, that are particular weapon set, low enemy number and position) remotely strong….
It has also the worst downsides of ALL so whats actually the need of balancing?

LordByron.8369:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vapor_Form

here it is….tooltip is clear 20 seconds recharge.

Also 3 vapor form would result in insta death, but the reality is you won t see an ele using a second either…..

I really think many players confuses MIST with VAPOR form…..
Solution change the colour of the 2 mists XD

For the rest, you are saying that the skill is situationally (with really rare case, that are particular weapon set, low enemy number and position) remotely strong….
It has also the worst downsides of ALL so whats actually the need of balancing?

Maybe increase the cool down flat out then, i have gotten downed, used it and then had it go on cool down for like 6seconds while downed. So not so sure how the Cool down works i dont remember it ever being that long a cool down

vapor form doesnt prevent conditions from hitting you does it?

Use a pull skill when he hops down (and yes, you should really have one on your bar for keep siege). He downs far from the gate. Cripple, freeze, or hell immobilize him. Lol at the now dead ele.

end of story.

Oh and that’s if his vapor form doesnt bug out. Sometimes it just simply wont let you through the gate while it’s active. It happens rarely, but if he’s spamming it constantly, well, it’ll happen eventually and he’ll be boned.

Is it pretty cheesy? Yes.
Is it unbeatable? Hell no. Not by a kittening longshot. It’s countered by snares, which every WvW’er should knows all of his classes by now, as snares are really kittening good in WvW. And pull skills, which admittedly are more niche, but oh hey look, said niche is the same one where the ele will be doing this!

Zenyatoo.4059:

vapor form doesnt prevent conditions from hitting you does it?

Use a pull skill when he hops down (and yes, you should really have one on your bar for keep siege). He downs far from the gate. Cripple, freeze, or hell immobilize him. Lol at the now dead ele.

end of story.

Oh and that’s if his vapor form doesnt bug out. Sometimes it just simply wont let you through the gate while it’s active. It happens rarely, but if he’s spamming it constantly, well, it’ll happen eventually and he’ll be boned.

Is it pretty cheesy? Yes.
Is it unbeatable? Hell no. Not by a kittening longshot. It’s countered by snares, which every WvW’er should knows all of his classes by now, as snares are really kittening good in WvW. And pull skills, which admittedly are more niche, but oh hey look, said niche is the same one where the ele will be doing this!

I don’t think you can apply NEW snares while in vapor/mist form, but old ones won’t be removed (this is the same as conditions such as bleed. Old bleeds keep ticking, new ones miss). Maybe you can (I suppose I could be wrong about this), but if so, for some reason the other teams I’m fighting when in WvW never seem to think to CC me in vapor form cause I do what the OP is describing all the time.

Because entering the downed state clears all conditions, and vapor form can be popped instantly, if you just spam #2 when you’re about to go down you’ll be in vapor form before your kitten even hits the ground with no conditions on you. Then you simply run through the gate and heal yourself with skill #4.

I was reading this topic just for fun. I think the OP has a point about the mist form tru the gate, as it really nearly impossible to catch.

Jump down, combo damage, get downed, mist form, dodge dodge, inside. You have like .5 sec to be rooted during that combo.

I don’t mind if it stays, but to people saying it’s not effective and can be easily countered : open your eyes. This is a really strong abilities.

And what about people saying Elem have really bad downstate? I agree Elem had the worse downed state abilities before the buff switching #2 and #3. But now? Did you play any other class except mesmer and thief? Somoene even said Ranger downed state were better then elem.

Seriously. Most classes have only a 1 sec interrupt as #2. You have an AoE interrupt. Meaning that if 10 player are trying to finish you, you can pop it like mesmer and thief, and cancel every finisher as you run away for 3(!!!!) sec. My necro got a single target 1 sec fear!

It also change your position! How many time did I try to finish an elem, only to see him walk behind is zerg, in a keep, or under siege protection. Hey at least my Engineer #2 can pull somoene to him, so he can be finished faster!

I’m not saying your downed state need a nerf, it’s all good.

But when I read people crying about Elem having bad downstate, come on!

First, I want to thank the few posters on this thread like Bsquared who understood what I am talking about here.

Second this thread has taught me a few things…

1. Many players of a class will rail against ANYTHING that can be considered a nerf, regardless of how small said nerf is. All I am asking for here is to not allow vapor form to go through portals…that’s it. All this would do is prevent Ele’s from using a cheesy tactic to gain immunity to death while defending a keep/tower…it would affect Ele’s in NO OTHER WAY, and yet there is tons of complaining about this potential change. In fact, one dude even said he would quit if vapor form was nerfed (LOLOLOL).

2. Many players seem to feel that an ability should never be nerfed unless it completely breaks WvW. I mean, we all know that this vapor form inside of towers doesn’t completely break WvW. But it’s still a cheap tactic that allows an Ele to fight attackers with almost no risk of death. Just because something doesn’t completely break the game, does not mean it shouldn’t be changed at some point…I don’t think this change should be the highest priority, but I just wanted to point out that it’s a problem and should be changed at some point.

3. Apparently, most players don’t realize there is a difference between MIST form and VAPOR form.

4. Some players will come up with absolutely crazy counter scenarios or theorycrafted limitations to justify an ability that is clearly imbalanced. Some of my favorites from here were:

A. CC the Ele to stop him. Doing this borders on impossible beacause downed purges all conditions, you can vapor form right away, and you can dodge in vapor form. Good luck CCing him during the second it takes him to get inside the tower while he is dodging.

B. Move away from the tower when an Ele comes out and get him to chase you. Yeah…okay, abandon your siege equipment just to try to kill one Ele, that is practical.

C. Line of warding. This will probably work, but it is ONE ability on ONE weapon set of ONE class that has to be ground targeted and timed very well. Unreasonable? Yeah I think so.

D. The cooldown…I keep seeing people argue that vapor form has a CD, and therefore you can’t just do it over and over. I don’t think you guys grasp this well…if you do not get inside the tower on your first vapor form…you are dead. And about the downed state penalty…the idea isn’t to revive, run outside and just instantly die…that’s dumb. The idea is to always have a get out of death free card in your back pocket. It is extremely unlikely that you will get downed frequently enough to die from the downed penalty…even with vapor form doubling it.

At the end of the day…vapor forming inside a tower is just a cheap way to get out of death with nearly 100% certainty and should be changed.

Kardiamond.6952:

I was reading this topic just for fun. I think the OP has a point about the mist form tru the gate, as it really nearly impossible to catch.

Jump down, combo damage, get downed, mist form, dodge dodge, inside. You have like .5 sec to be rooted during that combo.

I don’t mind if it stays, but to people saying it’s not effective and can be easily countered : open your eyes. This is a really strong abilities.

And what about people saying Elem have really bad downstate? I agree Elem had the worse downed state abilities before the buff switching #2 and #3. But now? Did you play any other class except mesmer and thief? Somoene even said Ranger downed state were better then elem.

Seriously. Most classes have only a 1 sec interrupt as #2. You have an AoE interrupt. Meaning that if 10 player are trying to finish you, you can pop it like mesmer and thief, and cancel every finisher as you run away for 3(!!!!) sec. My necro got a single target 1 sec fear!

It also change your position! How many time did I try to finish an elem, only to see him walk behind is zerg, in a keep, or under siege protection. Hey at least my Engineer #2 can pull somoene to him, so he can be finished faster!

I’m not saying your downed state need a nerf, it’s all good.

But when I read people crying about Elem having bad downstate, come on!

Yeah I’m baffled by people who think that Ele has a bad downed state. They must just be class blind or something.

I have played all the classes and IMO Ele has the best downed state. No class can delay death longer than an Ele, and each moment of delay is another moment that you may be revive. And no class can move farther in downed than an Ele, and this means the Ele has a decent chance of getting themselves to a better spot where they can get help.

Downed state is not supposed to be powerful.

Creslin.1758:

Okay, so I play Elementalist. I love Elementalist. Generally, I do not want to see them nerfed.

But there is one thing that an Elementalist can do right now, that is SO cheap, that even I think it has to be nerfed. And that thing is being able to use downed 2 and vapor right inside a structure you are defending.

This essentially means that an Ele defending a keep in UNKILLABLE. They can run out there, do all their D/D burst in the zerg, get downed, then just float right inside the keep portal, revive themselves and do it again.

I really don’t think any class should have a get out of death free card like this. Even mine.

Thought?

I do what you describe whenever i can defending in WvW. I also do it when i’m not around seige…if someone downs me, i go vapor form and try my damnedest to jump off a short cliff or hide behind a tree…whatever i can do to get out of LoS.

I dont think its cheap though, we’re just slippery; easy to down, hard to kill.

As others have mentioned, vapor form loses its effectiveness and you die immediately after 2 downs. And finally, if your tower is getting attacked to the point where you have to resort to vaping back inside, chances are the tower is already lost. Your efforts to vapor form and jump back up to fight will only slow the inevitable.

if not for vapor form, i would say remove the ele down state all together. The point of the down state is to give you a fighting chance, and what the ele lacks in offensive abilities it makes up for in it’s illusiveness.

Scrambles.2604:

Creslin.1758:

Okay, so I play Elementalist. I love Elementalist. Generally, I do not want to see them nerfed.

But there is one thing that an Elementalist can do right now, that is SO cheap, that even I think it has to be nerfed. And that thing is being able to use downed 2 and vapor right inside a structure you are defending.

This essentially means that an Ele defending a keep in UNKILLABLE. They can run out there, do all their D/D burst in the zerg, get downed, then just float right inside the keep portal, revive themselves and do it again.

I really don’t think any class should have a get out of death free card like this. Even mine.

Thought?

I do what you describe whenever i can defending in WvW. I also do it when i’m not around seige…if someone downs me, i go vapor form and try my damnedest to jump off a short cliff or hide behind a tree…whatever i can do to get out of LoS.

I dont think its cheap though, we’re just slippery; easy to down, hard to kill.

As others have mentioned, vapor form loses its effectiveness and you die immediately after 2 downs. And finally, if your tower is getting attacked to the point where you have to resort to vaping back inside, chances are the tower is already lost. Your efforts to vapor form and jump back up to fight will only slow the inevitable.

if not for vapor form, i would say remove the ele down state all together. The point of the down state is to give you a fighting chance, and what the ele lacks in offensive abilities it makes up for in it’s illusiveness.

All I’m asking for is to make vapor form so it can’t go through tower/keep portals. Nothing else.

@Scrambles

What people seems to not understand, is that OP isn’t asking to remove vapor form. Far from it.

He is asking a Minor tweak, as to make Vapor Form unable to enter a tower gate.

He is only talking about this particular situation, not about open field fights, or anything else.

You won’t spam that, you only need one use of Vapor to get inside. Just wait the “cooldown” and you can do it again.

Also, the tower isn’t lost when you have to resort to that. I do a similar (A lot more risky) tactic on my necromancer, where I jump and AoE the hell of everybody. It’s actually pretty effective, tho I can die a lot doing that.

Most of the time, it will help save a tower. You’ll drop people, damage siege, create chaos. People you downed will be used a bait for ennemies. They will try to rez them and bam you AoE them.

The jump and AoE tactic is really efficient, and if you can avoid most of the risk, it’s even better.

I think, must it stay or not is a pretty good debate, but It saddens me to see that as soon as we are talking about a minimal nerf, everybody will be quick to defend at all cost there class. Be justified or not, they are biaised and won’t be able to judge the situation(I’m talking about people not readind and not having any argument to counter). Most people in this thread didn’t even read OP concern, they saw a nerf so they posted to counter it.

And to the guy that said he would quit Elem if they nerf that, oh well man. Don’t play a MMO anymore.

Creslin.1758:

I have played all the classes and IMO Ele has the best downed state. No class can delay death longer than an Ele, and each moment of delay is another moment that you may be revive. And no class can move farther in downed than an Ele, and this means the Ele has a decent chance of getting themselves to a better spot where they can get help.

Thief, Mesmer, Guardian have way stronger downed states. They can delay death a LOT longer than an Elementalist, if they even die… by the time you do finish them their allies should be all over the place

But that’s of course off topic. Anyway I doubt they will make any change to an Elementalist skill, they have left so many skills in a bugged state since release and don’t see a “fix” in the near future so I doubt we’ll see any kind of change

Creslin.1758:

First, I want to thank the few posters on this thread like Bsquared who understood what I am talking about here.

Second this thread has taught me a few things…

1. Many players of a class will rail against ANYTHING that can be considered a nerf, regardless of how small said nerf is. All I am asking for here is to not allow vapor form to go through portals…that’s it. All this would do is prevent Ele’s from using a cheesy tactic to gain immunity to death while defending a keep/tower…it would affect Ele’s in NO OTHER WAY, and yet there is tons of complaining about this potential change. In fact, one dude even said he would quit if vapor form was nerfed (LOLOLOL).

2. Many players seem to feel that an ability should never be nerfed unless it completely breaks WvW. I mean, we all know that this vapor form inside of towers doesn’t completely break WvW. But it’s still a cheap tactic that allows an Ele to fight attackers with almost no risk of death. Just because something doesn’t completely break the game, does not mean it shouldn’t be changed at some point…I don’t think this change should be the highest priority, but I just wanted to point out that it’s a problem and should be changed at some point.

3. Apparently, most players don’t realize there is a difference between MIST form and VAPOR form.

4. Some players will come up with absolutely crazy counter scenarios or theorycrafted limitations to justify an ability that is clearly imbalanced. Some of my favorites from here were:

A. CC the Ele to stop him. Doing this borders on impossible beacause downed purges all conditions, you can vapor form right away, and you can dodge in vapor form. Good luck CCing him during the second it takes him to get inside the tower while he is dodging.

B. Move away from the tower when an Ele comes out and get him to chase you. Yeah…okay, abandon your siege equipment just to try to kill one Ele, that is practical.

C. Line of warding. This will probably work, but it is ONE ability on ONE weapon set of ONE class that has to be ground targeted and timed very well. Unreasonable? Yeah I think so.

D. The cooldown…I keep seeing people argue that vapor form has a CD, and therefore you can’t just do it over and over. I don’t think you guys grasp this well…if you do not get inside the tower on your first vapor form…you are dead. And about the downed state penalty…the idea isn’t to revive, run outside and just instantly die…that’s dumb. The idea is to always have a get out of death free card in your back pocket. It is extremely unlikely that you will get downed frequently enough to die from the downed penalty…even with vapor form doubling it.

At the end of the day…vapor forming inside a tower is just a cheap way to get out of death with nearly 100% certainty and should be changed.

Calling it a “cheap” tactic is subjective though. I can say other classes have cheap tactics to save themselves from dying near a keep. Just because ele can do it when downed doesn’t necessarily give them a significant advantage.

With how the devs handle elementalists, their solution to this would be to remove mist form and give us a bag of coal for christmas too.

maddoctor.2738:

Creslin.1758:

I have played all the classes and IMO Ele has the best downed state. No class can delay death longer than an Ele, and each moment of delay is another moment that you may be revive. And no class can move farther in downed than an Ele, and this means the Ele has a decent chance of getting themselves to a better spot where they can get help.

Thief, Mesmer, Guardian have way stronger downed states. They can delay death a LOT longer than an Elementalist, if they even die… by the time you do finish them their allies should be all over the place

But that’s of course off topic. Anyway I doubt they will make any change to an Elementalist skill, they have left so many skills in a bugged state since release and don’t see a “fix” in the near future so I doubt we’ll see any kind of change

Thief and Mesmer, it all depend of luck and if player are efficient at spoting the downed player. I used to have difficulties with Mesmer #2, but once you learn to wait for the red arrow, it goes a lot faster.

But I agree, those 2 have really strong downed state. Elem would be on par with them, if it wasn’t for your #3 that isn’t that good. But they are really close to them in their of effecness, especially in WvW.

But, Guardian? Really? How are they better then Elemental? When I see a downed guardian, I know I have to ether use stability, or push F right away so they have to use their #2 as soon as possible. They push me back once, then I just come back and finish them.

It has a 5 players limits, they can’t move with it or enter tower. I never get to see #3 of guardian since they are dead proir to that.

About resolving bug before balancing, they can’t do that, as they still have so many bugs. Every class have bugs and some have majors one that I’m still wondering how it went thru beta.

Kardiamond.6952:

maddoctor.2738:

Creslin.1758:

I have played all the classes and IMO Ele has the best downed state. No class can delay death longer than an Ele, and each moment of delay is another moment that you may be revive. And no class can move farther in downed than an Ele, and this means the Ele has a decent chance of getting themselves to a better spot where they can get help.

Thief, Mesmer, Guardian have way stronger downed states. They can delay death a LOT longer than an Elementalist, if they even die… by the time you do finish them their allies should be all over the place

But that’s of course off topic. Anyway I doubt they will make any change to an Elementalist skill, they have left so many skills in a bugged state since release and don’t see a “fix” in the near future so I doubt we’ll see any kind of change

Thief and Mesmer, it all depend of luck and if player are efficient at spoting the downed player. I used to have difficulties with Mesmer #2, but once you learn to wait for the red arrow, it goes a lot faster.

But I agree, those 2 have really strong downed state. Elem would be on par with them, if it wasn’t for your #3 that isn’t that good. But they are really close to them in their of effecness, especially in WvW.

But, Guardian? Really? How are they better then Elemental? When I see a downed guardian, I know I have to ether use stability, or push F right away so they have to use their #2 as soon as possible. They push me back once, then I just come back and finish them.

It has a 5 players limits, they can’t move with it or enter tower. I never get to see #3 of guardian since they are dead proir to that.

About resolving bug before balancing, they can’t do that, as they still have so many bugs. Every class have bugs and some have majors one that I’m still wondering how it went thru beta.

Yeah guardian downed state is no big deal. They either push you back once and then die, or you use stability and they die on the first stomp. Thief downstate is easy to deal with, you know he’s going to teleport, you walk to where he teleported and finish him. And mesmer isn’t hard as well…wait for the second one and finish him.

Ele has a good downed state, definitely on par with the best in the game.

Cirax.9231:

Calling it a “cheap” tactic is subjective though. I can say other classes have cheap tactics to save themselves from dying near a keep. Just because ele can do it when downed doesn’t necessarily give them a significant advantage.

I’m pretty sure that everyone here would think that the ability to go outside and AoE the crap out keep attackers, with very near zero risk of dying would be cheap if it was a thief ability lol.

I’m actually tempted to post this on the WvW forum just to see the difference in responses I get. People are touchy about their class.

Kardiamond.6952:

The jump and AoE tactic is really efficient, and if you can avoid most of the risk, it’s even better.

And that’s the OP’s point. With vapor form, as far as an Ele is concerned there is NO risk…

But still, not something Anet should be spending time on at this point. Bug fixes, content patches, and general PvP stuff first. Vapor form, while powerful when used in this manner, is not game-breaking (even though I completely agree with the OP that it’s VERY powerful).

Bsquared.3421:

And that’s the OP’s point. With vapor form, as far as an Ele is concerned there is NO risk…

But still, not something Anet should be spending time on at this point. Bug fixes, content patches, and general PvP stuff first. Vapor form, while powerful when used in this manner, is not game-breaking (even though I completely agree with the OP that it’s VERY powerful).

Well this will be to Anet to discuss. They seems to read the forum for balance, so it might give them an idea.

have any of u thought to think even if they made it so u couldnt go into portals with mist or vapor form.

U can still stack on the portal with it and when it ends u get teleported inside anyways Lol. Come on ppl eithier way its not goona happen end the post already lmao ive seen players in downed state get knocked back inside a portal from a guardians hammer come on >.>

Edited by moderator: post edited as it was breaking the code of conduct (inappropriate formatting)

Creslin.1758:

I’m pretty sure that everyone here would think that the ability to go outside and AoE the crap out keep attackers, with very near zero risk of dying would be cheap if it was a thief ability lol.

I’m actually tempted to post this on the WvW forum just to see the difference in responses I get. People are touchy about their class.

Thieves can already stealth safely into their keep when in trouble, so in a way it’s already “cheap” :p but that’s their playstyle. Eles elusive downed state can be cheap, but imo it’s a profession playstyle.

It seems a lot of people have differing opinions on how powerful this is, so I’d expect your other thread will have extreme responses as well.