Guild Wars 2

kusanagi.3150:

You want to nerf Ele because they are unkillable near a tower? Come on…

FYI, I’m talking as a (average) D/D Elem. And sorry for my English, I’m trying my best to write properly.

First, the assailants must be near the gate otherwise it’s difficult to reach the door in Vapor Form. Many times, I’m rooted/immobilized before I can enter in the tower, and I die before I do significant damage because I’ve take too much damage extremely fast… Yeah, I’m talking when the tower is attacked by a tons of players.

But yes, against a small group, you can gain some times and so does every ranged dps on the rampart. And then, how can you kill someone on a rampart when he can backup in his tower? How can you destroy a catapult which is inside the tower?

Honestly, the Vapor Form doesn’t have any impact on a siege. And certainly not enough to have a dedicated topic…

For something that no one care about, and doesn’t deserve its own topic…this sure seems to have a lot of people arguing against a potential nerf lol.

And yeah, you can’t kill a cata inside a tower, and yeah it’s pretty cheap too. People on ramparts though, they can be killed. Look up the skill “Into the Void”.

@LordByron

Your argument is baseless, please we are trying to have a discution about it. I’m not calling for a nerf myself, just leaning to this side.

Only @SuiRyuJin throw in some counter argument and seemed to understand the OP post.

Other class can’t do better,

We aren’t talking about being able to jump, aoe, and go back in the door. Every class can do that. We are talking about doing it, failing (as being downed) and still having a free escape with #2 downed state and 2 dodge.

Please explain how Eng, mesmer and necro can counter it? Both my necro and Eng can’t do it. I don’t play a mesmer, but they don’t have any special counter? Might be missing something.

Don’t forget that to use this tactics, the Elem has to keep is endurance full. So that has soon as he is downed, he cast #2, dodge twice and is at home. That leave him practicly invulnerable. They can get rooted for maybe .25.50 sec.

Read the complete discution, we went over this already.

@kusanagi

I don’t think you understood the OP, might be just you misreading it, or a second language issue.

We are talking about the downstate skill Vapor form, not the defensive cooldown. You practicly can’t be rooted if you use it right.

And it doesn’t have anything to do with killing people on the wall or siege.

Creslin.1758:

LordByron.8369:

ignore them they are baseless and completely lacks data….

Note they always ignores on how other classes can do exactly the same but better…..

Any eng can stop that tactic…
Any mesmer can stop that tactic
Any necro can stop that tactic

Don t know other classes well enough.

NERF engineers, necro, mesmers

No one can stop this tactic. We have gone over this in this thread over and over. You lose all conditions on downed, vapor form immediately, and then can’t be CC’d. I just confirmed this yesterday…tried to root an Ele in mist form and it said “Invulnerable.”

There is no other class that is immune to dying outside of towers. None.

It is a stupid, cheap tactic, and any good Ele should realize that, abuse the heck out of it while it’s in, but know that a nerf should be coming at some point.

Wow thanks for testing. I thought we could root them. What about people telling us they were getting rooted? It there a special root that affect it?

It’s making it even worse.

Creslin.1758:

LordByron.8369:

ignore them they are baseless and completely lacks data….

Note they always ignores on how other classes can do exactly the same but better…..

Any eng can stop that tactic…
Any mesmer can stop that tactic
Any necro can stop that tactic

Don t know other classes well enough.

NERF engineers, necro, mesmers

No one can stop this tactic. We have gone over this in this thread over and over. You lose all conditions on downed, vapor form immediately, and then can’t be CC’d. I just confirmed this yesterday…tried to root an Ele in mist form and it said “Invulnerable.”

There is no other class that is immune to dying outside of towers. None.

It is a stupid, cheap tactic, and any good Ele should realize that, abuse the heck out of it while it’s in, but know that a nerf should be coming at some point.

In Mist Form you are invulnerable, in Vapor Form you can be CCd. I was CC’d last night in sPvP.

And even if we were immune to CC while in Vapor Form Guardians would still be able to stop us with Line/Circle of Warding.

Vayra.3290:

Creslin.1758:

LordByron.8369:

ignore them they are baseless and completely lacks data….

Note they always ignores on how other classes can do exactly the same but better…..

Any eng can stop that tactic…
Any mesmer can stop that tactic
Any necro can stop that tactic

Don t know other classes well enough.

NERF engineers, necro, mesmers

No one can stop this tactic. We have gone over this in this thread over and over. You lose all conditions on downed, vapor form immediately, and then can’t be CC’d. I just confirmed this yesterday…tried to root an Ele in mist form and it said “Invulnerable.”

There is no other class that is immune to dying outside of towers. None.

It is a stupid, cheap tactic, and any good Ele should realize that, abuse the heck out of it while it’s in, but know that a nerf should be coming at some point.

In Mist Form you are invulnerable, in Vapor Form you can be CCd. I was CC’d last night in sPvP.

And even if we were immune to CC while in Vapor Form Guardians would still be able to stop us with Line/Circle of Warding.

I think we may need to test this more, I’ve heard conflicting experiences here. Some folks have said that they just floated right through wards in mist/vapor form. I always thought mist and vapor form behaved identically, but maybe not.

If anyone can test this empirically, please let me know…if not, I will try to test it on Saturday.

@Kardiamond

I’m talking about vapor form from downed state and you can be root and immobilize. I don’t know if it’s a bug or because of the lag, but it happened to me.

And I was talking about emphasize the fact that players on the rampart are difficult to kill, like a ele with vapor form. They are both in a advantageous position and they can both easily retreat. So it’s difficult but not impossible. Again, you must be near the tower to reach the door with vapor form. Hard to do if the opponents are attacking at long range…

And I think that a D/D ele does nothing more than a ranged dps on a rempart.

Well, when it comes down to it. This is literally one of the worst things we can actually be arguing about on here, and we should really instead be talking about our bugged mechanics and trying to get those fixed before we do anything else.

However, there will be those that come into the Ele forum to QQ because they don’t have such “super awesome” abilities.

The only time vapor form is useful is when defending a keep or running away from a mob to friends, and hoping they can get a rez on you.

The fact is that any competent staff Ele AoE’ing should be able to do it from the walls or on the ground from behind the door. Any competent D/D Ele should know to jump down, earthquake > Mistform, Armor of earth, lightning flash, and switch to water attunement to get rid of any further conditions as needed.

On the occasion someone makes it to that door, I don’t see a problem with vapor form giving them the chance to try and make it through. Guardians that are paying attention can stop them in their tracks.

@iCryptik

It’s not how it works. If we would wait for bugs to be fixed before balancing, we wouldn’t be balancing before years.

I don’t mind a really powerful ability, that’s ok.

What I have difficulties with, is a free escape when you have been DOWNED. You already have been outplayed, you got downed. Sure you can still have a chance. But a free out of jail card?

You already said it, any competent Ele can jump down and AoE everything and come back. Why does it need something like that?

And it also work in sPvP as mentioned prior.

“The only time vapor form is useful is when defending a keep or running away from a mob to friends, and hoping they can get a rez on you.”

For a #2, that’s a lot more then most other class. Want to trade it for a 1 sec single target fear? Or a 1 sec pull with casting time?

The only reason why I started contributing to this thread, is because I saw this happen a lot in WvW, and I agree that this is a cheesy tactic.

@kusanagi

I think we will have to test it, as we have a lot of different fact about it. And even if you can be rooted, don’t forget that this tactic goes with 2 Dodge! You have to keep your dodge for one you are coming back, if you want the perfect chance to survive. 2 dodge is enought for a free 2-3 sec run, thats all you need.

The only thing that can block you, are guardian. And some said the wall block could be jumped.

And personnaly, I can’t do as much damage from tower then when I’m AoE ing melee after jumping.

It’s supose to be more risk, more reward.

I would say that the ability, in the current way it works, is ok.

Our previous cast time for this skill was too long, but I would concede to a “nerf” of a 3 sec cast time when downed. Also, they really need to bring down the timer till we can cast our number 3 ability. Our downed abilities really need a rework, or at least, a look into realistic time of being able to use these abilities.

Logged in just for this……I respect your opinion OP, but this is the dumbest topic I’ve seen on this forum in awhile. This is the only decent downed skill the ele has. It only lasts 2 seconds. You can only realistically cast it once per downed state. Can cast it a maximum of 3 times because of downed penalty. Mes, Necro, War, Thief I believe all have escape down skills similar. Have you played any other class? It seems like you really haven’t given this much thought at all. Not to mention that an ele rushing into a zerg, just planning on using vapor form to get away isn’t going to do much damage anyway.

iCryptik.1496:

I would say that the ability, in the current way it works, is ok.

Our previous cast time for this skill was too long, but I would concede to a “nerf” of a 3 sec cast time when downed. Also, they really need to bring down the timer till we can cast our number 3 ability. Our downed abilities really need a rework, or at least, a look into realistic time of being able to use these abilities.

I really don’t think it needs a change to cast time or anything. When you’re dead in a zerg, they will finish you just from raw damage in less than 3 seconds…giving vapor form a cast time would be a horrible nerf to our downed state.

All it needs is a change to make it so vapor form can’t go through tower/keep portals…that’s it. No other changes required. This will completely fix the issue and not affect anything else in the game.

SQLOwns.7316:

Logged in just for this……I respect your opinion OP, but this is the dumbest topic I’ve seen on this forum in awhile. This is the only decent downed skill the ele has. It only lasts 2 seconds. You can only realistically cast it once per downed state. Can cast it a maximum of 3 times because of downed penalty. Mes, Necro, War, Thief I believe all have escape down skills similar. Have you played any other class? It seems like you really haven’t given this much thought at all. Not to mention that an ele rushing into a zerg, just planning on using vapor form to get away isn’t going to do much damage anyway.

Before you call something the “dumbest topic you have seen in a while” you may want to check to make sure you know what you are talking about.

1. It lasts 3 seconds not 2.

2. No other classes in the game can used a downed skill to get through a tower/keep portal.

3. Its cooldown and downed state penalty are irrelevant because this topic is about being downed near a tower and getting inside on the FIRST cast. If you don’t get inside then, you will be stomped…game over. So cooldowns to the skill are irrelevant.

4. An Ele that jumps outside their keep to AoE with no fear of dying, and no need to cut and run early, can do a lot of damage. Will they defeat a zerg single handed? No, probably not…but 5 Ele’s doing the same thing simultaneously would be a big problem.

So as you asked me in your post, may I ask you in return…have you given this any thought at all?

Creslin.1758:

iCryptik.1496:

I would say that the ability, in the current way it works, is ok.

Our previous cast time for this skill was too long, but I would concede to a “nerf” of a 3 sec cast time when downed. Also, they really need to bring down the timer till we can cast our number 3 ability. Our downed abilities really need a rework, or at least, a look into realistic time of being able to use these abilities.

I really don’t think it needs a change to cast time or anything. When you’re dead in a zerg, they will finish you just from raw damage in less than 3 seconds…giving vapor form a cast time would be a horrible nerf to our downed state.

All it needs is a change to make it so vapor form can’t go through tower/keep portals…that’s it. No other changes required. This will completely fix the issue and not affect anything else in the game.

In the end I still don’t see this as an issue, many other people I know don’t see this as an issue, and I will still continue to fight its change.

I guess we can only agree to disagree how this skill works.

lol i leave this thread for a day and it completely degenerated.

from my understanding u keep what conditions u have when u enter vapor form but u are invun to basically everything after u entered vapor. someone should test it and if it turns out u can be CC by even just a few skills in the game, i would say leave it. if u cant be CCed by anything i say give it like a 1-2sec cooldown so people have a chance of stopping u 1st but hard.

>.> though at this point i think almost everything about this argument has been gone over…..

@iCrypt

Man a 3 sec cast time would be a big nerf to the Elemental downed state. They don’t need that. The ability is great at it is, The only concern I have is about using gate.

And yes, your #3 downed state should have a tone up. At least the casting time, I rarely ever see an elem use it, because the casting time is so slow.

SQLOwns.7316:

Logged in just for this……I respect your opinion OP, but this is the dumbest topic I’ve seen on this forum in awhile. This is the only decent downed skill the ele has. It only lasts 2 seconds. You can only realistically cast it once per downed state. Can cast it a maximum of 3 times because of downed penalty. Mes, Necro, War, Thief I believe all have escape down skills similar. Have you played any other class? It seems like you really haven’t given this much thought at all. Not to mention that an ele rushing into a zerg, just planning on using vapor form to get away isn’t going to do much damage anyway.

I respect your opinion SQLOwns, but that is the dumbest reply I’ve seen in this thread. (see what I did there! :P)

I shall ask you the same question : Did you play any other class? Or did you even play your claqss? :P

First of all, Vapor form is 3 seconde duration, and not 2.

Necro doesn’t have anything that remotly looks like Vapor form. They have a 1 sec fear, and an AoE poison.

Warrior got vengeance that is a #3 abilities, so can’t be used right away. And if they don’t kill anyone, they just die at the end.

Mesmer, they have an illusion that will port them like 200 range away. Only similar because you move with it, but it’s really limited and can’t control it.

Thief, they have a limited teleport, and a stealth. That one is the only one that could compare. I don’t think they can use gate tho.

Not doing much damage? How? My elem friend can combo for nearly 11k AoE with bleeds. I gotta say that’s pretty good damage. Most AoE class can do crazy damage when jumping down, and Elem is part of them.

They don’t do more damage, that’s not what I’m arguing.

But they do it near-risk-free.

Have a good day.

Edit : kitten Creslin.1758 beat me to it

SuiRyuJin.4615:

lol i leave this thread for a day and it completely degenerated.

from my understanding u keep what conditions u have when u enter vapor form but u are invun to basically everything after u entered vapor. someone should test it and if it turns out u can be CC by even just a few skills in the game, i would say leave it. if u cant be CCed by anything i say give it like a 1-2sec cooldown so people have a chance of stopping u 1st but hard.

>.> though at this point i think almost everything about this argument has been gone over…..

You lose all conditions when you enter down state, and you vapor form immediately..so you essentially lose all conditions when you enter vapor form.

I am actually pretty strongly against giving vapor form any type of cast time or delay. It will mess up other parts of the game to fix one issue that could have just been fixed specifically by stopping vapor form from going inside of towers.

A hasted stomp could finish you before you vapor form if it had a delay.

Kardiamond.6952:

@iCrypt

Man a 3 sec cast time would be a big nerf to the Elemental downed state. They don’t need that. The ability is great at it is, The only concern I have is about using gate.

And yes, your #3 downed state should have a tone up. At least the casting time, I rarely ever see an elem use it, because the casting time is so slow.

SQLOwns.7316:

Logged in just for this……I respect your opinion OP, but this is the dumbest topic I’ve seen on this forum in awhile. This is the only decent downed skill the ele has. It only lasts 2 seconds. You can only realistically cast it once per downed state. Can cast it a maximum of 3 times because of downed penalty. Mes, Necro, War, Thief I believe all have escape down skills similar. Have you played any other class? It seems like you really haven’t given this much thought at all. Not to mention that an ele rushing into a zerg, just planning on using vapor form to get away isn’t going to do much damage anyway.

I respect your opinion SQLOwns, but that is the dumbest reply I’ve seen in this thread. (see what I did there! :P)

I shall ask you the same question : Did you play any other class? Or did you even play your claqss? :P

First of all, Vapor form is 3 seconde duration, and not 2.

Necro doesn’t have anything that remotly looks like Vapor form. They have a 1 sec fear, and an AoE poison.

Warrior got vengeance that is a #3 abilities, so can’t be used right away. And if they don’t kill anyone, they just die at the end.

Mesmer, they have an illusion that will port them like 200 range away. Only similar because you move with it, but it’s really limited and can’t control it.

Thief, they have a limited teleport, and a stealth. That one is the only one that could compare. I don’t think they can use gate tho.

Not doing much damage? How? My elem friend can combo for nearly 11k AoE with bleeds. I gotta say that’s pretty good damage. Most AoE class can do crazy damage when jumping down, and Elem is part of them.

They don’t do more damage, that’s not what I’m arguing.

But they do it near-risk-free.

Have a good day.

Edit : kitten Creslin.1758 beat me to it

All good…SQLOwns’ post deserved a double pwnage.

In siege the advantage should always be for defenders, regardless. You have a tower, you have a safe point of attack. The attackers are in the wild and should always be more subject to damage.

That said, I have constantly issues with downed states of warriors, thieves and mesmers. They are very often able to escape, they don’t even need a tower in the surroundings, open space is fine.
When I encounter other elementalists I just wait they use downed 2, and then they have NO escape at all. Easy finisher for everyone at any time. I don’t think having 1 single case of easy escape when you are defending your own tower is OP at all, it’s basically the only single case we can hope to survive (if others are not good enough to stop us).

Creslin.1758:

{everything you said in this thread, all 4 pages of it}

Creslin, I think it’s time to just let it go man You aren’t going to convince anyone here that it warrants a nerf, hell so far you’ve barely been able to get people to simply UNDERSTAND what you’re talking about (for example, many still say “just snare the Ele, vapor form doesn’t wipe conditions,” without realizing that going DOWN wipes them FOR YOU).

I, and others, agree with you that using vapor form to reenter the keep is a near-borderline exploit (imo, and your’s as well apparently) but in the grand scheme of the game it’s small potatoes and isn’t something that Anet should be concerning themselves with at this juncture. It only effects one class (Ele), in a marginally effective way (suicide runs will not stop a keep siege, only slow it down), in one particular endeavor (keep defense), in one third of the game content (WvW only). Yes, it can be used in tPvP on foefire I suppose, but hiding behind the base walls in the downed state ressing yourself is of arguable benefit to your tPvP team…

Rest assured, this post reached 4 pages which is about 4 pages more than most other threads in the Elementalist forums (aside from the one announcing the EA nerf) so Anet has more than likely noticed and this issue has been brought to their attention. If they feel it warrants an immediate nerf, they will do so and many of us here will not be shocked (I won’t, you won’t be either, although I will miss it). Others can commence with the teeth gnashing if they didn’t see it coming.

Cheers mate

Bsquared.3421:

Creslin.1758:

{everything you said in this thread, all 4 pages of it}

Creslin, I think it’s time to just let it go man You aren’t going to convince anyone here that it warrants a nerf, hell so far you’ve barely been able to get people to simply UNDERSTAND what you’re talking about (for example, many still say “just snare the Ele, vapor form doesn’t wipe conditions,” without realizing that going DOWN wipes them FOR YOU).

I, and others, agree with you that using vapor form to reenter the keep is a near-borderline exploit (imo, and your’s as well apparently) but in the grand scheme of the game it’s small potatoes and isn’t something that Anet should be concerning themselves with at this juncture. It only effects one class (Ele), in a marginally effective way (suicide runs will not stop a keep siege, only slow it down), in one particular endeavor (keep defense), in one third of the game content (WvW only). Yes, it can be used in tPvP on foefire I suppose, but hiding behind the base walls in the downed state ressing yourself is of arguable benefit to your tPvP team…

Rest assured, this post reached 4 pages which is about 4 pages more than most other threads in the Elementalist forums (aside from the one announcing the EA nerf) so Anet has more than likely noticed and this issue has been brought to their attention. If they feel it warrants an immediate nerf, they will do so and many of us here will not be shocked (I won’t, you won’t be either, although I will miss it). Others can commence with the teeth gnashing if they didn’t see it coming.

Cheers mate

Haha yeah man, I basically agree with everything you say. I know this issue isn’t a gamebreaker or anything, it’s really just a small annoyance that should probably be fixed.

That said, I was honestly amused by how up in arms some people here got about a potential nerf to their class, regardless of how small. So my constant arguing here, is less about the issue, and more about the arguing.

Creslin.1758:

Haha yeah man, I basically agree with everything you say. I know this issue isn’t a gamebreaker or anything, it’s really just a small annoyance that should probably be fixed.

And it probably will be in time, like a year from now (at current ANet “bug-fixing-pace.”)
{to the moderator: This is a joke.}

That said, I was honestly amused by how up in arms some people here got about a potential nerf to their class, regardless of how small. So my constant arguing here, is less about the issue, and more about the arguing.

We’re Ele’s, we’re sensitive about the nerfbat, especially after the EA nerf debacle, which I railed against at the time, but completely understand why it was necessary (I just wish they had added some offensive staff buffs to compensate).

:D

So you likely play another class as main. You come here and bring your point about why eles should grant you a free kill. You clearly didn’t listen to anything others have brought to your discussion. Finally you say that you are clearly right while others are not even able to understand what you said.

Next one please.

@Mak

Not at all. He continued arguing with everyone.

And he listened to everything people said, and basicly answered to each one of them. He admited some point, renforced others.

That’s was a good thread, good arguments, good counter, only a few people trolling.

I think everything is there, Anet will decide what happens about it.

Oh And also, I read the elem forum often, and I see him post quit a lot here. He make build, help others and all. Somoene else in the threads even said he was a pretty darn good elem. I’m pretty sure he has an Ele as a main.

There is surely some good argument in the thread, what is bad is phrases like “You aren’t going to convince anyone”, “so far you’ve barely been able to get people to simply UNDERSTAND what you’re talking about” and so on. That the OP agreed with.
If you have to “convince” someone, then it’s not even a discussion, you think you are right and that’s it. Sorry this made me quite upset.

I still think this is not OP at all, if they fix it I don’t care, it’s a minor thing in the whole bugged elementalist picture.

mak.9027:

There is surely some good argument in the thread, what is bad is phrases like “You aren’t going to convince anyone”, “so far you’ve barely been able to get people to simply UNDERSTAND what you’re talking about” and so on. That the OP agreed with.
If you have to “convince” someone, then it’s not even a discussion, you think you are right and that’s it. Sorry this made me quite upset.

I still think this is not OP at all, if they fix it I don’t care, it’s a minor thing in the whole bugged elementalist picture.

Sooo…you are quite upset that we are trying to convince (sway) each other of our points? Ummm…isn’t that kind of what arguing/debating is about?

Anyone else confused by this?

Kardiamond.6952:

@Solori

in sPvp you are prolonging the inevitable a lot longer then most other class. Vapor form is no lackluster downedstate.

I just have some issue with a 0 risk advantage.

No, never said it was lackluster, but its about on par with the mesmer, theif, and warrior downed state.

I’m upset if there’s lack of respect for people who may have a different opinion. The fact I think you’re wrong doesn’t mean I didn’t understand what you said
That’s it, I’m not going deeper into an off-topic discussion. Cheers.

mak.9027:

There is surely some good argument in the thread, what is bad is phrases like “You aren’t going to convince anyone”, “so far you’ve barely been able to get people to simply UNDERSTAND what you’re talking about” and so on. That the OP agreed with.
If you have to “convince” someone, then it’s not even a discussion, you think you are right and that’s it. Sorry this made me quite upset.

I still think this is not OP at all, if they fix it I don’t care, it’s a minor thing in the whole bugged elementalist picture.

I’ll take credit for this one, as Mak is referring to my post.

1.) Regarding “you aren’t going to convince anyone,” isn’t that like the #1 rule of internet chat forums? Everyone has their opinion and are rarely swayed.

2.) Regarding “so far you’ve barely been able to get people to simply UNDERSTAND what you’re talking about” is referencing the plethora of folks who came into this thread and said stuff like “just root the Ele, L2P, it’s fine,” without READING the particular scenario Creslin was positing. Many of us have already covered why “rooting the Ele” does not work, in great detail, yet these people keep rearing their heads (these are the people I was referring to as “not understanding”). That’s not to say they’re incapable of understanding the issue, just that they haven’t read closely enough to follow the almost 5 pages of discussion (I can’t say that I blame them, if I stumbled across this thread today I wouldn’t read 5 pages either).

Lastly, you shouldn’t get so upset about this topic or my post in particular. It wasn’t meant as an insult towards anyone. And from my perspective, i’m not at all trying to “Convince” folks that the “vapor-form 100% escape technique” discussed in this forum needs nerfing at all, just trying to get people to understand exactly what the technique is and let them decide if it warrants a nerf. If they disagree, fine, that’s well within their right and they are not wrong. Ultimately it’s not up to us, it’s ANet’s job to decide what they consider fairplay.

mak.9027:

I’m upset if there’s lack of respect for people who may have a different opinion. The fact I think you’re wrong doesn’t mean I didn’t understand what you said
That’s it, I’m not going deeper into an off-topic discussion. Cheers.

Well to be fair, there WERE a lot of people here that didn’t understand what the OP was about. There were a bunch that thought I was talking about mist form, the utility skill, and railing against a nerf for it. When in reality, I’m talking about vapor form, the downed skill…which I thought the topic title would have made clear, but not clear enough apparently.

Creslin.1758:

Well to be fair, there WERE a lot of people here that didn’t understand what the OP was about. There were a bunch that thought I was talking about mist form, the utility skill, and railing against a nerf for it. When in reality, I’m talking about vapor form, the downed skill…which I thought the topic title would have made clear, but not clear enough apparently.

And for clarification, THOSE are the ONLY people I was referring to when I said they did “not understand.”

Creslin.1758:

All it needs is a change to make it so vapor form can’t go through tower/keep portals…that’s it. No other changes required. This will completely fix the issue and not affect anything else in the game.

Please stop your vendetta, whatever caused it, just go out and play this game for fun. I don’t particularly play with your tactics but the few couple of times I actually was being chased by some zerg and managed to get to the safety of a keep in the last seconds of Vapor Form… I was grateful for it.

Eles die all the time. They don’t need nerfs to make them even more easy to kill.

Fine, thanks for clarification. Sorry for the rant.

mak.9027:

Fine, thanks for clarification. Sorry for the rant.

No problem. Don’t wanna offend, glad I could clarify

Creslin.1758:

Before you call something the “dumbest topic you have seen in a while” you may want to check to make sure you know what you are talking about.

1. It lasts 3 seconds not 2.

2. No other classes in the game can used a downed skill to get through a tower/keep portal.

3. Its cooldown and downed state penalty are irrelevant because this topic is about being downed near a tower and getting inside on the FIRST cast. If you don’t get inside then, you will be stomped…game over. So cooldowns to the skill are irrelevant.

4. An Ele that jumps outside their keep to AoE with no fear of dying, and no need to cut and run early, can do a lot of damage. Will they defeat a zerg single handed? No, probably not…but 5 Ele’s doing the same thing simultaneously would be a big problem.

So as you asked me in your post, may I ask you in return…have you given this any thought at all?

1. Minor mistake, still not going very far……
2. I will need to verify this, I’m almost positive I’ve seen other classes move after being downed. Of course I think one class can stealth, which is a huge advantage in every other part of the map (besides the towers).
3. You are the one who stated in the OP that they can do this “repeatedly”. So GG.
4. “Cut and Run early”, honestly have you played ele against a zerg? Post some vids. I want to see you charge a zerg, survive long enough to cast more than 1 spell, then retreat safely into the keep in vapor form. Other classes don’t have this downed skill, because they are strong enough to not get downed to begin with, lol.

Oh, and if you can manage to get 5 people coordinating attacks, they SHOULD be able to crush some fools…….

Yes I have given it some thought. Nerfing this ability would make eles almost useless defenders to towers/keeps.

Warriors have a downed state ability that allows them to pop back up and kill people and are invulnerable to damage. I have seen them countless times pop out of keep doors, go to downed, pop this ability and then just run right through the keep door again before going to downed state again. This is exactly the same thing as our mist form only better, because they can damage people while in this OP state.

Anet needs to nerf this Warrior downed state ability first and then worry about other less OP downed states like the Ele’s.

boozer.7815:

Warriors have a downed state ability that allows them to pop back up and kill people and are invulnerable to damage. I have seen them countless times pop out of keep doors, go to downed, pop this ability and then just run right through the keep door again before going to downed state again. This is exactly the same thing as our mist form only better, because they can damage people while in this OP state.

Anet needs to nerf this Warrior downed state ability first and then worry about other less OP downed states like the Ele’s.

@Boozer

Vengeance from warrior sin’t the same thing at all.

1- It’s a #3 skill, meaning it’s on cooldown when you are downed. Meaning that if you do the Jump AoE trick and you get downed by the group, you wont have time to use it.

2- When the timer end, they don’t go in downed state. They are dead.

Those two reason are not permitting Warrior to do the Jump + Aoe taking.

@SQLOwns

1. 3 sec is still 50% longer duration then 2 second. That’s a lot.

2. I played every class, no other class can move like vapor form, except like I said Thief that can port but no use gate, and mesmer that move randomly but not far away, and no gate. The only other class that can go thru a gate, are warrior but its a #3 cooldown skill and they die right after, no downed state.

3. Yep. Still doesn’t matter.

4. Won’t be hard to reproduce.

How would it make Ele useless in siege? With staff they are amoung the strongest siege machine. With DD they can still Jump/AoE Combo without dying. If I can do it with my necro, you can do it with your DD hybrid. !

SQLOwns.7316:

Creslin.1758:

Before you call something the “dumbest topic you have seen in a while” you may want to check to make sure you know what you are talking about.

1. It lasts 3 seconds not 2.

2. No other classes in the game can used a downed skill to get through a tower/keep portal.

3. Its cooldown and downed state penalty are irrelevant because this topic is about being downed near a tower and getting inside on the FIRST cast. If you don’t get inside then, you will be stomped…game over. So cooldowns to the skill are irrelevant.

4. An Ele that jumps outside their keep to AoE with no fear of dying, and no need to cut and run early, can do a lot of damage. Will they defeat a zerg single handed? No, probably not…but 5 Ele’s doing the same thing simultaneously would be a big problem.

So as you asked me in your post, may I ask you in return…have you given this any thought at all?

1. Minor mistake, still not going very far……
2. I will need to verify this, I’m almost positive I’ve seen other classes move after being downed. Of course I think one class can stealth, which is a huge advantage in every other part of the map (besides the towers).
3. You are the one who stated in the OP that they can do this “repeatedly”. So GG.
4. “Cut and Run early”, honestly have you played ele against a zerg? Post some vids. I want to see you charge a zerg, survive long enough to cast more than 1 spell, then retreat safely into the keep in vapor form. Other classes don’t have this downed skill, because they are strong enough to not get downed to begin with, lol.

Oh, and if you can manage to get 5 people coordinating attacks, they SHOULD be able to crush some fools…….

Yes I have given it some thought. Nerfing this ability would make eles almost useless defenders to towers/keeps.

By repeatedly, I mean…using vapor, going inside keep to revive yourself, then going out doing damage and using vapor to get inside again if needed. The cool downs will not come into play here.

Here are some videos, not of the keep thing, I don’t have any. But they are videos of me surviving a Zerg without even abusing the keep thing…so yeah, if I can do that then the keep thing is gravy.

:-p i know down state clear condition, i was simply clarifying that any condition thats on u will remain on u after entering vapor. there is a number of ele out there that dont vapor back into gate immediately simply because they know they can get pushed to 1% hp on downed, vapor get away and have the enemy just waste those few second more doing nothing.

oh a little bonus thing for ele who does that. if u are going against an ele who waits before vaporing, u can actually stack enough DoTs on him that even after he vapors back into gate, and it ends he can still die from DoTs since going down from vapor form apparently doesnt clear conditions at least it didnt the last time it happened 2 me.

after watching all 3 vids.. i must say… the enemy…sucks….massively…
a few points though.

1. at the most i might say the 1st vid was closest to a zerg. the other 2 would be considered small squad combat. zerg usually implies i believe at LEAST 10+ usually in 15-30 range. at least whenever i use the term zerg, i always assume 20+.

2. this might seems nitpicky, but its the truth. u have an ally helping. 1+1 =/= 2 in terms of combat efficiency when talking about well communicated teammates. badly coordinated enemy further amplifies that with their incompetence

3. the simply fact that the enemy even when outnumbering so much u never bothered ressing downed player shows… just.. how bad they are..

4. 8D we are getting off topic

gratz on ur victory over outnumbering forces though XD

@karDiamond

1. This is relative, I’d prefer not to spend time debating over whether 3 seconds is too long vs 2 seconds, etc. I don’t think that is the main point of the thread. I assume ANET has done extensive testing for these numbers, of course I could be wrong on that.

2. What level are your alts?

3. ?

4. Vids pls?

You clearly didn’t read the part about warriors not needing this skill. I’ve seen wars engage the zerg then come back running with 25% or more health and through the gate. If they make it so eles can’t go through the gate in vapor form, then its only fair that a war would need at least 25% HP in order to make it through.

Why does removing this make eles almost useless at defense? (I didn’t say siege, just defense)
You ever been pulled off the wall into the middle of the zerg? I have numerous times. If you haven’t then you simply either 1) haven’t played the game that much or 2) haven’t played against a zerg that much. The vapor form is pretty much the only way to survive if you’re pulled from the wall (which is fairly easy to do). Most of the time I need to pop Armor, dodge twice, then mist form just to make it back through the door. If I get stunned, then vapor form is the only way I survive. And guess what, if there is a group of at least 10 (which is kind of what a zerg is.), then one person WILL stun me. So if Vapor Form can’t go through doors, that pull off wall skills would be an insta-kill (which imo, should not exist in this game.).

@Creslin

3. Look up Downed Penalty in the wiki, then you will understand what I’m talking about. I’m not talking about CD either.

I’ll watch the vids later when I have a moment.

SQLOwns.7316:

@karDiamond

1. This is relative, I’d prefer not to spend time debating over whether 3 seconds is too long vs 2 seconds, etc. I don’t think that is the main point of the thread. I assume ANET has done extensive testing for these numbers, of course I could be wrong on that.

2. What level are your alts?

3. ?

4. Vids pls?

You clearly didn’t read the part about warriors not needing this skill. I’ve seen wars engage the zerg then come back running with 25% or more health and through the gate. If they make it so eles can’t go through the gate in vapor form, then its only fair that a war would need at least 25% HP in order to make it through.

Why does removing this make eles almost useless at defense? (I didn’t say siege, just defense)
You ever been pulled off the wall into the middle of the zerg? I have numerous times. If you haven’t then you simply either 1) haven’t played the game that much or 2) haven’t played against a zerg that much. The vapor form is pretty much the only way to survive if you’re pulled from the wall (which is fairly easy to do). Most of the time I need to pop Armor, dodge twice, then mist form just to make it back through the door. If I get stunned, then vapor form is the only way I survive. And guess what, if there is a group of at least 10 (which is kind of what a zerg is.), then one person WILL stun me. So if Vapor Form can’t go through doors, that pull off wall skills would be an insta-kill (which imo, should not exist in this game.).

@Creslin

3. Look up Downed Penalty in the wiki, then you will understand what I’m talking about. I’m not talking about CD either.

I’ll watch the vids later when I have a moment.

I know what you mean, the downed penalty lasts 60 seconds. By the time you revive inside the keep, and manage to die again outside, it will be up. Also, the idea isn’t to die as fast as you can. The idea is to do the most damage you can, and TRY not to die, but know that if you do, you will be able to escape easily.

Creslin.1758:

All I’m asking for is to make vapor form so it can’t go through tower/keep portals. Nothing else.

People have already listed a bunch of valid counters, even if there were zero counters, it’s not remotely gamebreaking.

So what class do you really play? thief, right?

mjharrison.3209:

Creslin.1758:

All I’m asking for is to make vapor form so it can’t go through tower/keep portals. Nothing else.

People have already listed a bunch of valid counters, even if there were zero counters, it’s not remotely gamebreaking.

So what class do you really play? thief, right?

Elementalist. And there are no viable counters.

Thieves can teleport right by the gate, but it won’t let them inside, even if they are imbedded into it.

I still don’t see how this is a meaningful thing for WvW. It’s quite easy to counter by an invading force with half a brain. You’re almost always going to be more effective using a staff from the walls. Meanwhile Engineers are flamethrowing through gates…

If the argument is, “I cannot die because I am doing this” then that’s fair. But it’s not really impacting game balance because your efforts are ultimately meaningless to a force sufficient to take a keep. So it’s not clear why anyone would actually care that you are doing this.

I mean, there are tons of weird tricks people can do in WvW to never die.

So. Yes, maybe this should be nerfed. Would you prefer the limited developer resources ANet has spend their time doing that or rebalancing Elementalist traits so that they’re more appealing? Or fixing Necro pets? Or fixing lame pathing errors for teleports and pulls? Or one of a thousand other more important things?

Yes, it is goofy. Everyone agrees. Everyone also agrees that it’s not gamebreaking. Why are there 4 pages on this subject?

Not here to hijack the thread I already said what i thought about this subject. But and a big but is… I think D/D will be nerf next before down state 2. look at the videos you posted and other videos of D/D. It’s a shame what wineing can cause isn’t it sir?

PS Nice game play thou
edit for ps

As several others have indicated, this thread is just kitten If you really feel that downed state 2 is so bad why don’t you report this on the Dev forums or report in game as an exploit or bug. Coming on the Ele forums and crying about wanting a nerf to an already seriously overnerfed class already is trolling.

Reporting this thread.

Due to the inflammatory tone of this thread, it will be closed. Please keep in mind that if you want to discuss issues on our forums, you have to do it in a constructive way.