Guild Wars 2

i am with ohoni and offhand pistol fitting to scepter would be great.

steve.2945:

Ohoni.6057:

I definitely want to see pistol, main or offhand, either would be fine, but main would be better because then it could get spammable attacks. I’d see mainhand as being more offense, offhand being more reactive/support.

Sword would likely be lame.

From my understanding, sword “may” get the revenant hammer treatment. It may be a ranged weapon, but lets cross our fingers, and hope anet knows that ele isn’t made to be close range/upinyourface kind of class

I actually really love Dagger/Dagger, it’s the entire reason I became an Ele, so melee ele is not an issue for me. I just don’t see the point of making ANY kind of sword build for ele, whether that is a melee sword OR some “wandsword” option.

If it’s going to be a melee sword, where you’re smacking the enemy with it using fire and earth and stuff, then that’s fine, but what does it bring different than Dagger, and it doesn’t really have the supportive offhands, like no Shield, so you couldn’t even make a proper “Spellsword” ele-tank kind of character.

If it’s going to be a wand-sword, where you just pose with the sword as a prop and magic happens down-range, what’s the difference from Scepter?

They could do some interesting stuff visually, I’m sure, but if they’re going with a ranged option, I’d prefer a spellcaster gun to anything they could do with a sword.

Ohoni.6057:

They could do some interesting stuff visually, I’m sure, but if they’re going with a ranged option, I’d prefer a spellcaster gun to anything they could do with a sword.

I disagree. Spellcaster sword would be awesome, and I’d prefer it to gun. Dagger is the ‘melee’ weapon, Revs have long range hammers.

A mid to long range main-hand sword with gap closers/makers, CC, and devastating single target burst damage would be keen. A rapid attack of some kind?

Something that puts the ele squarely on the more offensive side of things.

CETheLucid.3964:

Ohoni.6057:

They could do some interesting stuff visually, I’m sure, but if they’re going with a ranged option, I’d prefer a spellcaster gun to anything they could do with a sword.

I disagree. Spellcaster sword would be awesome, and I’d prefer it to gun. Dagger is the ‘melee’ weapon, Revs have long range hammers.

Yes, and Eles have long range Staff and Scepter (and hopefully pistol). There’s no compelling need for a long ranged sword.

A mid to long range main-hand sword with gap closers/makers, CC, and devastating single target burst damage would be keen. A rapid attack of some kind?

Something that puts the ele squarely on the more offensive side of things.

Why would a long range sword need gap closers? That’s what range is for.

An offhand pistol would work well with the other options. For Scepter/Pistol, it would provide more offense than Focus or Warhorn. For Dagger/Pistol it would provide more ranged flexibility than OH Dagger, allowing you to attack while melee is too risky, or drain down enemies that insist on staying mobile.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, and Eles have long range Staff and Scepter (and hopefully pistol). There’s no compelling need for a long ranged sword.

There’s no compelling need for a pistol for the same reason.

Ohoni.6057:

Why would a long range sword need gap closers? That’s what range is for.

Same reason dagger has one. It’s “melee”. There might be a close range zinger rapid fire attack or something. Just spit balling.

Ohoni.6057:

An offhand pistol would work well with the other options. For Scepter/Pistol, it would provide more offense than Focus or Warhorn. For Dagger/Pistol it would provide more ranged flexibility than OH Dagger, allowing you to attack while melee is too risky, or drain down enemies that insist on staying mobile.

All that can be said the same about a ranged sword weapon, so yeah. It’s just a matter of preference. I’m team sword.

CETheLucid.3964:

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, and Eles have long range Staff and Scepter (and hopefully pistol). There’s no compelling need for a long ranged sword.

There’s no compelling need for a pistol for the same reason.

True, and at that point it becomes a thematic issue, and I’d prefer a pistol to a sword thematically. I also feel an offhand weapon would be more useful and likely than a mainhand one.

Ohoni.6057:

Why would a long range sword need gap closers? That’s what range is for.

Same reason dagger has one. It’s “melee”. There might be a close range zinger rapid fire attack or something. Just spit balling.

Dagger’s a melee weapon, you proposed Sword as a ranged one, like Mesmer GS. If ti’s ranged, it doesn’t need to close gaps. If it’s just a combo of short and mid-range moves then it’d be more like Dagger, which would make it redundant.

Ohoni.6057:

An offhand pistol would work well with the other options. For Scepter/Pistol, it would provide more offense than Focus or Warhorn. For Dagger/Pistol it would provide more ranged flexibility than OH Dagger, allowing you to attack while melee is too risky, or drain down enemies that insist on staying mobile.

All that can be said the same about a ranged sword weapon, so yeah. It’s just a matter of preference. I’m team sword.

So you’re thinking offhand sword? That would just be weird. Dagger/Sword? Scepter/Sword? Huh? I agree that if it’s mainhand, a ranged sword and a pistol could fill pretty much identical roles, but I still believe that an offhand pistol would be better.

Scepter/Sword already exists with Mesmer, but Dagger/Sword has not been done.

I would much prefer MH Sword (as I’ve already mentioned). I don’t really care too much how its designed, as I’m confident whatever it is will be sufficient for its purposes.

Ohoni.6057:

True, and at that point it becomes a thematic issue, and I’d prefer a pistol to a sword thematically.

Thematically I can see an elemental magus with a sword well before a firearm. But again it’s a preference thing.

I don’t doubt they could make pistol work just as they could make sword work. I just prefer sword over pistol.

Ohoni.6057:

Dagger’s a melee weapon, you proposed Sword as a ranged one, like Mesmer GS. If ti’s ranged, it doesn’t need to close gaps. If it’s just a combo of short and mid-range moves then it’d be more like Dagger, which would make it redundant.

Dagger isn’t strictly melee. Even it’s “melee” stretches the concept. We’re not mesmers. Different attunements can work different roles into the weapon.

Ohoni.6057:

So you’re thinking offhand sword? That would just be weird. Dagger/Sword? Scepter/Sword? Huh? I agree that if it’s mainhand, a ranged sword and a pistol could fill pretty much identical roles, but I still believe that an offhand pistol would be better.

Either. Whatever works with the concept of an elemental sword magus.

Scepter/Sword already exists with Mesmer, but Dagger/Sword has not been done.

And for good reason, swords should not be an offhand weapon unless the mainhand weapon is equally substantial. An OH Ele sword just gets super silly.

Dagger isn’t strictly melee. Even it’s “melee” stretches the concept. We’re not mesmers. Different attunements can work different roles into the weapon.

Dagger is medium range. We don’t need another medium range. If they make the sword a melee weapon, it should be a strictly melee weapon, with maybe a few attacks that cover 600-900 range, but not enough to have a meaningful fight at that distance. If they make Sword a ranged weapon, then making it medium range like Dagger would be redundant, it would need to be long range, mostly at least 900, maybe even 1200. But again, if they are going that long range, why not just use a pistol or rifle? There’d be no novelty to the “wandsword” since the GS Mesmer already does that, so it would just be a silly gimmick.

If the sword could manage both respectable melee damage AND respectable long range options, that would make it a bit too versatile as a weapon, there needs to be a balance of options. You can’t do everything great at once.

Either. Whatever works with the concept of an elemental sword magus.

It’s called “Dagger/Dagger.”

As said above, dagger is more quasi-melee than a real melee weapon – the closest range autos (lightning and earth) are about double that of most melee attacks. So a dager elementalist can, in the right circumstances, maintain a gap while doing their thing.

Which is probably represented in damage – lower risk, lower reward.

Some people have been asking for a true melee attack (and not through a conjure), so I can certainly see ArenaNet doing that.

That said, I would be willing to bet that at least one attunement has ranged capability, at least 600 units, so that an elementalist with this weapon isn’t completely locked into melee.

Ohoni.6057:

And for good reason, swords should not be an offhand weapon unless the mainhand weapon is equally substantial. An OH Ele sword just gets super silly.

How it ultimately plays out or if it’s even a sword is up to Anet.

But yeah, I think my general idea for sword on ele would be better suited mainhand. But I’m not a game designer.

Maybe they could make it work as an offhand? Who can say? I’d prefer mainhand but I’m not opposed to it in that iteration if they can do it justice.

Ohoni.6057:

Dagger is medium range. We don’t need another medium range. If they make the sword a melee weapon, it should be a strictly melee weapon, with maybe a few attacks that cover 600-900 range, but not enough to have a meaningful fight at that distance. If they make Sword a ranged weapon, then making it medium range like Dagger would be redundant, it would need to be long range, mostly at least 900, maybe even 1200. But again, if they are going that long range, why not just use a pistol or rifle? There’d be no novelty to the “wandsword” since the GS Mesmer already does that, so it would just be a silly gimmick.

Could have the long-range game that dagger can’t realistically bring with tactical high-risk-high-reward heavy DPS burst on single targets that rewards smart play.

At the end of the day Mesmer GS wants to keep you at range. Ele sword can set up at range and go for the kill in melee as an example. Spitballing.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s called “Dagger/Dagger.”

Dagger != Sword. I get you want to compare my thoughts on sword as making another dagger, but that’s not what I want. I’m not disparaging your desire for pistol.

We just want different things.

How it ultimately plays out or if it’s even a sword is up to Anet.

Obviously, but it would be silly no matter how they do it.

At the end of the day Mesmer GS wants to keep you at range. Ele sword can set up at range and go for the kill in melee as an example. Spitballing.

Again, it can’t be great at both range and melee, because that’s too many things. It needs to either be great in melee while only a nuisance at medium range, OR great at long ranges and pretty weak in close. It can’t be allowed to do both things well for balance reasons, and it can’t be medium range focused because Dagger already covers that.

Dagger != Sword. I get you want to compare my thoughts on sword as making another dagger, but that’s not what I want. I’m not disparaging your desire for pistol.

We just want different things.

You don’t even particularly know whether you want them to hit things with the sword or just wave it in their general direction from a distance. You just insist on having a sword in at least one of the Elementalist’s hands. Forgive me for thinking that’s a bit of a trivial argument.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, it can’t be great at both range and melee, because that’s too many things. It needs to either be great in melee while only a nuisance at medium range, OR great at long ranges and pretty weak in close. It can’t be allowed to do both things well for balance reasons, and it can’t be medium range focused because Dagger already covers that.

Lets not get too carried away. It is possible to be both great in melee and in range. Guardian Scepter has no appreciable drop off within its effective range. In addition, plenty of Melee and Ranged weapons have overlaps, so although I wouldn’t expect it, Sword could absolutely still play around 130-600 range.

Were I to design Sword, I’d definitely make it pure melee. With a good set of utility skills, I think there’s plenty good to gain.

Guardian Scepter has no appreciable drop off within its effective range.

Yes, but as someone who used to love Guardian Scepter, the trade-off to that is that it’s never been great at any range. It’s versatile, but melee is better in melee, ranged is better at range. Dagger already fills that role for Eles.

Sword could absolutely still play around 130-600 range.

But again, Dagger already fills that role just fine. Eles don’t need a new weapon that can “play around within 600 range.” They would need either a weapon that is brutal within melee distance OR a weapon that is competitive at 900+ ranges. It can be brutal in melee with a token medium range attack or two, but not enough that you could actually stick at those ranges.

Furthermore, if they did get a weapon that would be brutal in melee range, they would also need way more options to stay alive in melee range. However good a tank a Tempest may be, the new elite spec (which remember would not be able to use any of the Tempest kit), would need to be even tankier to be survivable.

Guardian scepter is a bit of an unusual case because while on paper it has no dropoff, in practice the likelihood of any given orb hitting drops off rapidly with range due to the slow velocity of the orbs.

However, a more significant thing to note is that other professions can, and usually do, have a melee-focused set and a ranged-focused set. Elementalists just have one set, with attunement-switching taking the place of weapon-switching.

Up to now, the elementalist weapons – the two-handed and mainhand weapons anyway – have had roughly the same ranges. Staff can throw everything at 1200 range. Scepter throws everything at 900 range, although some people like to use fire at closer ranges for mightstacking. The only weapon that really has some variation in ranges is dagger, which allows for ranges between 240 radius point-blank area effects to 600 for Vapor Blade.

However, does the current status quo for elementalist weapons where the effective range of the weapon doesn’t change between attunements have to remain for any future elementalist weapon?

Taking a sword or greatsword as an example, one could easily imagine ways in which it could be used either as a melee weapon (imbuing the blade with elemental power than swinging it) or as a ranged weapon (channel a bolt through the blade Spatial Surge-style, throw fire or ice from the blade by swinging it Flame Wave style, throwing the blade and them pulling it back through wind or magnetism). You could, for instance, have an arrangement where in fire attunement, the elementalist swings at the enemy with a fiery sword (offensive melee attunement); in water attunement, the elementalist swings at the enemy throwing ice crystals from their blade (600-range, defensive ranged attunement); in air attunement, the elementalist channels lightning at the target through the blade (900-range offensive attunement) and in earth attunement, the blade leaves trails of choking dust that Weakens targets struck (defensive melee attunement).

One could very easily come up with a different set of roles of the attunements – this is intended mainly as a proof-of-concept. The point is that it would be entirely possible for the elementalist to have a sword and use it very differently depending on which element they’re attuned to.

Ohoni.6057:

Guardian Scepter has no appreciable drop off within its effective range.

Yes, but as someone who used to love Guardian Scepter, the trade-off to that is that it’s never been great at any range. It’s versatile, but melee is better in melee, ranged is better at range. Dagger already fills that role for Eles.

Sword could absolutely still play around 130-600 range.

But again, Dagger already fills that role just fine. Eles don’t need a new weapon that can “play around within 600 range.” They would need either a weapon that is brutal within melee distance OR a weapon that is competitive at 900+ ranges. It can be brutal in melee with a token medium range attack or two, but not enough that you could actually stick at those ranges.

Furthermore, if they did get a weapon that would be brutal in melee range, they would also need way more options to stay alive in melee range. However good a tank a Tempest may be, the new elite spec (which remember would not be able to use any of the Tempest kit), would need to be even tankier to be survivable.

All that said you still want pistol which would be as redundant as the concept of a long range sword per your own arguments, because dagger and scepter.

It’s almost like it’s a matter of preference or something.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, but as someone who used to love Guardian Scepter, the trade-off to that is that it’s never been great at any range. It’s versatile, but melee is better in melee, ranged is better at range. Dagger already fills that role for Eles.

Guardian Scepter has always been one of the better ranged dps weapons in the game, and especially now with raids promoting sustained damage over burst and the recent symbol patch, its the best its ever been. One of the early scepter solutions in pvp modes was to treat Scepter as an enhanced melee weapon, but with various projectile changes and especially the symbol change, it holds its own well at any range. Its a featured weapon on many Metabattle builds, so the community seems to be in agreement with scepter effectiveness.

But again, Dagger already fills that role just fine. Eles don’t need a new weapon that can “play around within 600 range.” They would need either a weapon that is brutal within melee distance OR a weapon that is competitive at 900+ ranges. It can be brutal in melee with a token medium range attack or two, but not enough that you could actually stick at those ranges.

Furthermore, if they did get a weapon that would be brutal in melee range, they would also need way more options to stay alive in melee range. However good a tank a Tempest may be, the new elite spec (which remember would not be able to use any of the Tempest kit), would need to be even tankier to be survivable.

Identifying specifically what the dagger lacks and filling that niche is the simple way for Sword to both be featured at 130-600 range and be stay unique to dagger. Tempest was pretty good, but other skills would be better at allowing a Sword ele to stay in melee range. Stances are the first that come to mind, but there are plenty of others if we look into other professions. The total package of an elite spec will determine the overall effectiveness of itself. It sounds redundant but its somewhat important to remember.

I really want Sword for purely personal reasons, but I’m confident whatever elite spec we get will be sufficient for each individual profession.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, it can’t be great at both range and melee, because that’s too many things.

Other classes can use a weapon that’s great at range then swap to another weapon that’s great at melee. Why shouldn’t the """""king of versatility""""" be allowed to have some actual versatility for once?

Up to now, the elementalist weapons – the two-handed and mainhand weapons anyway – have had roughly the same ranges. Staff can throw everything at 1200 range. Scepter throws everything at 900 range, although some people like to use fire at closer ranges for mightstacking. The only weapon that really has some variation in ranges is dagger, which allows for ranges between 240 radius point-blank area effects to 600 for Vapor Blade.

However, does the current status quo for elementalist weapons where the effective range of the weapon doesn’t change between attunements have to remain for any future elementalist weapon?

Again, Eles are a special case. They exchange the versatility of being able to swap between two sets of very different attacks, for being able to swap between four sets of less different attacks. You can’t expect Ele attacks to be as different as non-Ele ones because they get twice as many of them.

Basically, it would be possible for them to make an Ele weapon that would behave very differently in each mode, sure, but it would not be fair to the other classes, so in practical terms, they cannot.

All that said you still want pistol which would be as redundant as the concept of a long range sword per your own arguments, because dagger and scepter.

I preferred offhand, because Focus is more about defense and control, and at 900 range or less. It’s built to keep you safe and enemies away from you. Does anyone run Dagger/Focus? I haven’t heard it come up. And of course Dagger is about similar things, only more mobile and shorter range, so it’s not the best partner to Scepter.

Ideally OH Pistol would be more damage-based than the other two. It would still have some control, but rather than moving you to target, or keeping them away from you, it would offer options to stop them in place or draw them to you, along with stronger damaging ranged attacks than the other offhands. Ideally at least some of them would be 1200 range as well.

Now if it were mainhand pistol, then I agree, anything MH Pistol could do, a swordwand could potentially do as well, I just think that a swordwand would be stupid and a spellcaster would be more flavorful. I was fully clear on that several posts ago.

Guardian Scepter has always been one of the better ranged dps weapons in the game, and especially now with raids promoting sustained damage over burst and the recent symbol patch, its the best its ever been.

Not as good as it was pre-patch. They reduced the range and seem to have reduced the damage of the #2 ability against most mobs. Seemed nice on paper, in practice it’s a bit of a wet noodle. I know this, I’ve been using Scepter/Focus constantly in both PvE and PvP on one of my most common characters.

Its a featured weapon on many Metabattle builds, so the community seems to be in agreement with scepter effectiveness.

Most PvP metas have switched to Long Bow, or if they really have a purpose for an offhand, as Scepter it the only ranged MH weapon available. I enjoy Scepter, just don’t paint it out as being some awesomely balanced weapon.

Identifying specifically what the dagger lacks and filling that niche is the simple way for Sword to both be featured at 130-600 range and be stay unique to dagger. Tempest was pretty good, but other skills would be better at allowing a Sword ele to stay in melee range. Stances are the first that come to mind, but there are plenty of others if we look into other professions. The total package of an elite spec will determine the overall effectiveness of itself. It sounds redundant but its somewhat important to remember.

Right, but that’s kind of my point. You obviously could build in elite spec traits that would make an Ele more survivable in melee, the problem is, how would players abuse that? The bunker Ele is already a bit of an issue, and a pure melee Ele would need to be even better at it. Maybe it could be balanced to work well with a sword build, but then would it remain balanced if they went Staff or Scepter/Focus and just because this unkillable medium to long range monster? I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it likely would take a lot of work to make a glassy class into something that could facetank and yet is also balanced.

Other classes can use a weapon that’s great at range then swap to another weapon that’s great at melee. Why shouldn’t the """""king of versatility""""" be allowed to have some actual versatility for once?

As I said above, that’s the trade-off. Eles get to have 20 total attacks to choose from in a single battle, but in exchange, those 20 attacks have more in common with each other than the maximum variation between the others classes’ 10.

Ohoni.6057:

Not as good as it was pre-patch. They reduced the range and seem to have reduced the damage of the #2 ability against most mobs. Seemed nice on paper, in practice it’s a bit of a wet noodle. I know this, I’ve been using Scepter/Focus constantly in both PvE and PvP on one of my most common characters.

Most PvP metas have switched to Long Bow, or if they really have a purpose for an offhand, as Scepter it the only ranged MH weapon available. I enjoy Scepter, just don’t paint it out as being some awesomely balanced weapon.

I grabbed the info from Metabattle right as I was making the post. If anything its been Scepter replacing the LB builds, because I certainly haven’t been seeing the reverse. If anything the range reduction made it even better as a midline weapon by encouraging that spacing. Engaging that weapon at range is just as dangerous as up close.

Right, but that’s kind of my point. You obviously could build in elite spec traits that would make an Ele more survivable in melee, the problem is, how would players abuse that? The bunker Ele is already a bit of an issue, and a pure melee Ele would need to be even better at it. Maybe it could be balanced to work well with a sword build, but then would it remain balanced if they went Staff or Scepter/Focus and just because this unkillable medium to long range monster? I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it likely would take a lot of work to make a glassy class into something that could facetank and yet is also balanced.

It really boils down to choosing the right options to give such a character (which again, seems pretty self-explanatory). There are styles and types of skills that benefit ranges more than others, so the key is identifying what those happen to be. In the case of Guardian’s Scepter, its immobilize is both offensive and defensive in nature. It doesn’t have much defense itself, so it provides high pressure mixed with whatever offhand you choose. An Ele Sword similarly could have much of its defense in the weapon set (evades, blocks, gap openers, w/e) while the traits and skills are designed to work in more specific circumstances. Its not that crazy to think about when we have examples of this working within this first wave of especs. There’s nothing you can reasonably expect that both innately prefers one of the current ele offerings and is unfixable from conception. As the developers have said before, the numbers are easy to balance.

Four years of play has shown that this ‘trade-off’ is bad.

Ele gets to use 20 weapon skills, but almost all of them are bad. Take a look at scepter for the most obvious extreme. The skills can be divided into two categories: phoenix and filler. It’s not as bad for dagger but dagger also suffers pretty heavily from this.

The utilities are nearly all bad as well. If it wasn’t for the hilariously op sustain that traits give them ele would’ve been permanently in the trash tier.

Ohoni.6057:

Up to now, the elementalist weapons – the two-handed and mainhand weapons anyway – have had roughly the same ranges. Staff can throw everything at 1200 range. Scepter throws everything at 900 range, although some people like to use fire at closer ranges for mightstacking. The only weapon that really has some variation in ranges is dagger, which allows for ranges between 240 radius point-blank area effects to 600 for Vapor Blade.

However, does the current status quo for elementalist weapons where the effective range of the weapon doesn’t change between attunements have to remain for any future elementalist weapon?

Again, Eles are a special case. They exchange the versatility of being able to swap between two sets of very different attacks, for being able to swap between four sets of less different attacks. You can’t expect Ele attacks to be as different as non-Ele ones because they get twice as many of them.

Basically, it would be possible for them to make an Ele weapon that would behave very differently in each mode, sure, but it would not be fair to the other classes, so in practical terms, they cannot.

To my eye, the tradeoff is versatility for customisability. Elementalists have twice as many weapon skills as other professions, but the price is that they have half as many choices: all of those skills are decided by a single weaponset, while other professions have more ability to pick and choose from what works for them.

There are also other tradeoffs in that elementalists are stuck with some fairly niche skills that may not be useful in any given circumstance (while weapon skills from other professions are usually worth using even if the circumstances aren’t optimal, unless it would be breaking a higher-damage autoattack routine, which segues into…), comparatively weak autoattacks, and skills that are generally speaking weaker than those of other professions (particularly on a ratio of effect versus cooldown time) because the elementalist is balanced on the assumption they’ll be cycling through their skills and attunements.

There’s no reason that range limitation needs to be a sacred cow that would be unfair to the other professions to hamburger. Especially if you consider that any new weapon would be part of an elite specialisation, and thus come with the opportunity cost that you can’t take any other elite specialisation if you want the ability to change your optimal range envelope by changing attunements.

In fact, we already have a precedent in this very thread. Pre-HoT, many people considered that not having a weapon that really shined at long ranged was part of how guardians were balanced against other professions. Now, dragonhunters have longbows, which break that rule. The next elite specialisation for guardians, however, might be right back at throwing slow-moving orbs hoping that the enemy won’t be able to dodge all of them.

And even putting all that aside, a max range of 600 would still allow for standoff capability while having true melee options.

In fact, we already have a precedent in this very thread. Pre-HoT, many people considered that not having a weapon that really shined at long ranged was part of how guardians were balanced against other professions. Now, dragonhunters have longbows, which break that rule.

But they already had Scepter, which was good at long range until they nerfed it. I don’t think “bad at range” was ever a Guardian balancing trait, the Guardian balance is that they are boon-reliant, and boon stripper/corruption can do a number on them.

And even putting all that aside, a max range of 600 would still allow for standoff capability while having true melee options.

Again, if they’re reasonably effective at 0-600 then we’re right back into Dagger’s wheelhouse, which would be redundant. Keep in mind, while other classes may have multiple weapons covering similar roles, these weapons only take up three moves in their kitten nal, while an Ele mainhand involves twelve, twice as many as any two-hander. The four dagger sets account for four different weapons for any other class, so even a 5th “good at 0-600, but mostly closer than that” weapon set would be redundant. As I said, I could see them adding a few, 600 range moves to a melee sword, all decent CD on them so they would be more situational than bread-and-butter, but I don’t see them adding enough that you could hang out at any distance and reasonably contribute. If you can do both decent damage at middle distance and brutal damage in close, it would be too much, even if you had to swap attunements to get there.

Ohoni.6057:

In fact, we already have a precedent in this very thread. Pre-HoT, many people considered that not having a weapon that really shined at long ranged was part of how guardians were balanced against other professions. Now, dragonhunters have longbows, which break that rule.

But they already had Scepter, which was good at long range until they nerfed it. I don’t think “bad at range” was ever a Guardian balancing trait, the Guardian balance is that they are boon-reliant, and boon stripper/corruption can do a number on them.

And even putting all that aside, a max range of 600 would still allow for standoff capability while having true melee options.

Again, if they’re reasonably effective at 0-600 then we’re right back into Dagger’s wheelhouse, which would be redundant. Keep in mind, while other classes may have multiple weapons covering similar roles, these weapons only take up three moves in their kitten nal, while an Ele mainhand involves twelve, twice as many as any two-hander. The four dagger sets account for four different weapons for any other class, so even a 5th “good at 0-600, but mostly closer than that” weapon set would be redundant. As I said, I could see them adding a few, 600 range moves to a melee sword, all decent CD on them so they would be more situational than bread-and-butter, but I don’t see them adding enough that you could hang out at any distance and reasonably contribute. If you can do both decent damage at middle distance and brutal damage in close, it would be too much, even if you had to swap attunements to get there.

Ele is one of the highest DPS classes and they already do it at range with staff, there is no way that Anet would make a pure melee weapon that can do significantly higher damage. If that happened, Ele would be the only DPS profession in raids.

If the new weapon had melee at all it would be on some of the skills, and perhaps the benefit to the new weapon would be that the skills are faster so that they can actually hit players in PvP, instead of doing extra damage. Melee skills would be as strong as staff skills or maybe slightly stronger, while ranged skills would be weaker than staff skills.

Ohoni.6057:

I just think that a swordwand would be stupid and a spellcaster would be more flavorful. I was fully clear on that several posts ago.

Yeah? So was I. Further, I respected your opinion and didn’t disparage your choice even though I personally want something different and find your taste quite strange.

But I guess you’ve reached the end of your capacity. Nice convo while it lasted.

I don’t think a pistol mage is stupid per say. Before GW2 I never imagined a magus with daggers, and low and behold it’s one of my favorite weapons for ele.

I’d still like sword given a choice but if we were to get pistol of all things and it was awesome? I’d be cool with that.

As an observation, spellcasters using melee weapons, particularly swords, have a long history. Look at Gandalf, for instance. In Guild Wars we have the dervish as an example that uses elemental-style magic even before we consider secondary professions. In Guild Wars 2, every major spellcasting profession – guardian and mesmer on release, necromancer with reaper – has the option to pull a sword, greatsword, or other weapon and go to town in melee.

So why would elementalist be the special snowflake that must always be a pure spellcaster?

There are certainly enough examples in the fantasy genre of practitioners of elemental magic that were willing to mix in a little swordplay (or axeplay, scytheplay, whatever it might be). And enough players have asked for it that, leaks of dubious authenticity aside, I’m sure it’s on ArenaNet’s radar.

Ohoni.6057:

But they already had Scepter, which was good at long range until they nerfed it. I don’t think “bad at range” was ever a Guardian balancing trait, the Guardian balance is that they are boon-reliant, and boon stripper/corruption can do a number on them.

Only against targets that didn’t move much, or if you’re throwing into a pack where it’s likely to hit something. The slow projectile speed did mean that, if your target was doing much moving, its effectiveness dropped off rapidly outside of a range of 600 or so.

Now, in PvE, a lot of targets are either stationary or fairly predictable, so this isn’t a big deal. Against players, though…

Again, if they’re reasonably effective at 0-600 then we’re right back into Dagger’s wheelhouse, which would be redundant. Keep in mind, while other classes may have multiple weapons covering similar roles, these weapons only take up three moves in their kitten nal, while an Ele mainhand involves twelve, twice as many as any two-hander. The four dagger sets account for four different weapons for any other class, so even a 5th “good at 0-600, but mostly closer than that” weapon set would be redundant. As I said, I could see them adding a few, 600 range moves to a melee sword, all decent CD on them so they would be more situational than bread-and-butter, but I don’t see them adding enough that you could hang out at any distance and reasonably contribute. If you can do both decent damage at middle distance and brutal damage in close, it would be too much, even if you had to swap attunements to get there.

I would see at least one spammable skill at range 600 or higher to be required, actually.

No profession is forced to go into melee and only into melee through a single weapon choice. Some builds run double melee options, but that’s their choice. The closest is hammer scrappers, but they’ll generally have a ranged weapon kit. (Yes, I know elementalists have conjures. However, kits are designed to be very convenient to use because they are essentially the engineer’s equivalent to weaponswapping. Conjures aren’t, because the elementalist equivalent to weaponswapping is changing attunements, and conjures are intended to be more of a situational thing.)

You say that having 0-600 range would be stepping too much on dagger’s concept space. I say that being intended to actually go into melee rather than dancing around just out of the enemy’s melee reach is a significant enough difference that they can afford some similarities.

Ganathar.4956:

Ele is one of the highest DPS classes and they already do it at range with staff, there is no way that Anet would make a pure melee weapon that can do significantly higher damage. If that happened, Ele would be the only DPS profession in raids.

If the new weapon had melee at all it would be on some of the skills, and perhaps the benefit to the new weapon would be that the skills are faster so that they can actually hit players in PvP, instead of doing extra damage. Melee skills would be as strong as staff skills or maybe slightly stronger, while ranged skills would be weaker than staff skills.

Camping fire staff has a similar issue to long range scepter: it’s great against stationary targets, but against targets that move out of the red circles, most of the theoretical damage doesn’t land.

So yeah, I don’t see it outperforming fire staff in straight DPS terms against a stationary target either. However, the hypothetical melee elementalist would be able to get the majority of its damage to land on a moving target (well, as much as any melee build can) and would likely have access to more active defences than the staff ele in order to help survive in melee range (at least for a time).

ele doesn´t need a mainhand weapon. He has all covered. It´s a pure matter of “Style” if we get one. I prefer scepter buffed not a new ranged main weapon. What ele does´t have is an offensive ranged offhand.

Wolfric.9380:

ele doesn´t need a mainhand weapon. He has all covered. It´s a pure matter of “Style” if we get one. I prefer scepter buffed not a new ranged main weapon. What ele does´t have is an offensive ranged offhand.

If they give us another offhand I quit this game. I’ve been using scepter for 2 years and daggers for 3 years now. No way I playing with those 2 for another 4 years.

Ele is one of the highest DPS classes and they already do it at range with staff, there is no way that Anet would make a pure melee weapon that can do significantly higher damage. If that happened, Ele would be the only DPS profession in raids.

If the new weapon had melee at all it would be on some of the skills, and perhaps the benefit to the new weapon would be that the skills are faster so that they can actually hit players in PvP, instead of doing extra damage. Melee skills would be as strong as staff skills or maybe slightly stronger, while ranged skills would be weaker than staff skills.

Agreed, which is why I favor a ranged option.

As an observation, spellcasters using melee weapons, particularly swords, have a long history. Look at Gandalf, for instance. In Guild Wars we have the dervish as an example that uses elemental-style magic even before we consider secondary professions.

Yeas, but those are typically melee swords, like the Mesmer sword. But in GW2, that role is satisfied for the Ele with Dagger, and the “spellsword” role is covered by Mesmer and Guard, so there’s no compelling need for Ele to get it too. So that would leave us with a wandsword, which is lame, and should be something else, maybe a “scepter” of some kind. Yes, maybe Eles could get a Scepter?

In Guild Wars 2, every major spellcasting profession – guardian and mesmer on release, necromancer with reaper – has the option to pull a sword, greatsword, or other weapon and go to town in melee.

Yes, and Ele has Dagger/Dagger.

Only against targets that didn’t move much, or if you’re throwing into a pack where it’s likely to hit something. The slow projectile speed did mean that, if your target was doing much moving, its effectiveness dropped off rapidly outside of a range of 600 or so.

That was more an issue with how ANet handles projectiles. They should have made it so that it homes in on targets regardless of movement. Even so, before the league seasons started I was routinely wiping out enemies at 1200 range, even LB Rangers. The strength in Specter was never auto-attack spamming, it was the #2 and 3 skills.

I would see at least one spammable skill at range 600 or higher to be required, actually.

Then equip Dagger and be happy. If the Eles do get a melee sword, then it cannot have a spammable 600+ range attack. Maybe a 400, maybe a few CD 600 range attacks like Thief’s Dancing Daggers, but that’s it. If it’s a fully functioning melee/medium hybrid then it’s just Daggers again.

Your arguments keep circling back around to “I want to run Dagger mainhand, but I want to see a sword displayed on the model when I do so.”

So yeah, I don’t see it outperforming fire staff in straight DPS terms against a stationary target either. However, the hypothetical melee elementalist would be able to get the majority of its damage to land on a moving target (well, as much as any melee build can) and would likely have access to more active defences than the staff ele in order to help survive in melee range (at least for a time).

But to support Ganthar’s point, if Staff Ele remains dominant in ranged DPS against stationary targets, and Sword Ele becomes dominant at melee DPS against mobile targets, then Eles would just become the goto DPS source in all situations, which leaves the other classes in a bad place.

If they give us another offhand I quit this game. I’ve been using scepter for 2 years and daggers for 3 years now. No way I playing with those 2 for another 4 years.

Can I have your stuff?

Wolfric.9380:

ele doesn´t need a mainhand weapon. He has all covered. It´s a pure matter of “Style” if we get one. I prefer scepter buffed not a new ranged main weapon. What ele does´t have is an offensive ranged offhand.

well, even if you feel ele doesn’t need a mainhand, we ARE getting a mainhand, or a 2 hand. so anet sees it differently,and I don’t think they even want to buff scepter to make it viable.

Ohoni.6057:

Can I have your stuff?

Srry mate, someone already called dibbs on my stuffz

well, even if you feel ele doesn’t need a mainhand, we ARE getting a mainhand, or a 2 hand. so anet sees it differently,and I don’t think they even want to buff scepter to make it viable.

How do you know that? I haven’t heard anything that would rule out another off-hand.

Ohoni.6057:

well, even if you feel ele doesn’t need a mainhand, we ARE getting a mainhand, or a 2 hand. so anet sees it differently,and I don’t think they even want to buff scepter to make it viable.

How do you know that? I haven’t heard anything that would rule out another off-hand.

There was an expansion leak, I didn’t believe it at first, but some stuff on it seems to be true so far, as the amoon oasis, and Eureka.

steve.2945:

Ohoni.6057:

well, even if you feel ele doesn’t need a mainhand, we ARE getting a mainhand, or a 2 hand. so anet sees it differently,and I don’t think they even want to buff scepter to make it viable.

How do you know that? I haven’t heard anything that would rule out another off-hand.

There was an expansion leak, I didn’t believe it at first, but some stuff on it seems to be true so far, as the amoon oasis, and Eureka.

But wasn’t some of it not true, like they said that the Stormbow was intended as a Legendary? I don’t know, you can take some truth and wrap it in a bunch of nonsense. Besides which, there were leaks of an ele sword before HoT and it turned out to mostly be filler that they didn’t run with. We have no idea what they actually intend to launch until they do.

Anet has said the Stormbow skin was not going to be a legendary. Afaik only Eureka and the pvp map were correct guesses. Everything else is unknown, or I’ve seen it at some point on the forums. The Warrior, Necro, and Guardian especs are all things I’ve definitely seen as random posts on these forums over the past year.

Tomiyou.3790:

Wolfric.9380:

ele doesn´t need a mainhand weapon. He has all covered. It´s a pure matter of “Style” if we get one. I prefer scepter buffed not a new ranged main weapon. What ele does´t have is an offensive ranged offhand.

If they give us another offhand I quit this game. I’ve been using scepter for 2 years and daggers for 3 years now. No way I playing with those 2 for another 4 years.

To want end though if ele dose not get a main hand or 2h weapon then they will get more effects from there atuments and skills. Keep in mind ele is a mages class not a weapon class. Now if they did add in a main hand or 2h weapons (still a main hand weapons) its going to not add much more as a specialization other then the weapon it self. So image an ele who is less of an ele and that has a new weapon set that needs to cover something that staff dagger or spcter cant do. There not much that left for ele that simply not coved already.
So i see sword or GS more of pure melee weapons with less conidl then dagger and maybe more def and less healing.

What i turly want is a hammer and a pure field class with good cc ok tank ability but needs other ppl to get the max out of its effects. So having all the fields in the game some finnisher and a number of added effects to though field types and finnishing.

So i see sword or GS more of pure melee weapons with less conidl then dagger and maybe more def and less healing.

So, a Warrior, basically?

What i turly want is a hammer and a pure field class with good cc ok tank ability but needs other ppl to get the max out of its effects.

Have you met Scrapper?

So having all the fields in the game some finnisher and a number of added effects to though field types and finnishing.

As for ALL the fields, that’s unlikely. ANet likes to spread things around, they don’t like giving all the fields to a single class, you basically only get more than 2-3 if you’re lucky. Engis and Rangers are your best bet though, not Ele.

Ohoni.6057:

So i see sword or GS more of pure melee weapons with less conidl then dagger and maybe more def and less healing.

So, a Warrior, basically?

What i turly want is a hammer and a pure field class with good cc ok tank ability but needs other ppl to get the max out of its effects.

Have you met Scrapper?

So having all the fields in the game some finnisher and a number of added effects to though field types and finnishing.

As for ALL the fields, that’s unlikely. ANet likes to spread things around, they don’t like giving all the fields to a single class, you basically only get more than 2-3 if you’re lucky. Engis and Rangers are your best bet though, not Ele.

I mean like how ele can blast fire for fury but your right light dark shadow and “mez” fields should not be on ele.

Ohoni.6057:

So i see sword or GS more of pure melee weapons with less conidl then dagger and maybe more def and less healing.

So, a Warrior, basically?

What i turly want is a hammer and a pure field class with good cc ok tank ability but needs other ppl to get the max out of its effects.

Have you met Scrapper?

So having all the fields in the game some finnisher and a number of added effects to though field types and finnishing.

As for ALL the fields, that’s unlikely. ANet likes to spread things around, they don’t like giving all the fields to a single class, you basically only get more than 2-3 if you’re lucky. Engis and Rangers are your best bet though, not Ele.

Are you just completely averse to the concept of classes being able to do multiple things, including things that other classes can do and different approaches to the same thing within a class?

And we can’t forget: an elite spec is way, wayyyyy more than just a weapon.

Coldtart.4785:

Ohoni.6057:

So i see sword or GS more of pure melee weapons with less conidl then dagger and maybe more def and less healing.

So, a Warrior, basically?

What i turly want is a hammer and a pure field class with good cc ok tank ability but needs other ppl to get the max out of its effects.

Have you met Scrapper?

So having all the fields in the game some finnisher and a number of added effects to though field types and finnishing.

As for ALL the fields, that’s unlikely. ANet likes to spread things around, they don’t like giving all the fields to a single class, you basically only get more than 2-3 if you’re lucky. Engis and Rangers are your best bet though, not Ele.

Are you just completely averse to the concept of classes being able to do multiple things, including things that other classes can do and different approaches to the same thing within a class?

And we can’t forget: an elite spec is way, wayyyyy more than just a weapon.

Which is ironic because his suggestion for pistol falls apart under his own scrutiny. Nevermind that it’s all suggestion, matters of taste and preference at this point.

His opinion is the correct one.

Are you just completely averse to the concept of classes being able to do multiple things, including things that other classes can do and different approaches to the same thing within a class?

I take my queues from how ANet designs. They seem to follow certain patterns.

1. If you do one thing great, then you shouldn’t be able to do anything else well at the same time. If you do nothing great, then you can do several things well, hopefully in ways that work together. The more flexible you are, the weaker you are at each of the things you could be doing.

2. All moves within a given build should be designed around a single range, either melee, skirmish, long, or standoff, with only token moves towards the other ranged for use when you’re out of position. See #1.

3. DPS, Healing, Utility, you can be great at two of these, so long as they are not in the same builds at the same time, or decent at two of them at once. You can’t be great at all three, especially not at the same time.

4. Most classes get at least one condition that they do well, no class is great with all possible conditions. Most have access to only two or less.

5. Most classes are missing significant access to at least one boon.

6. Most classes are missing access to several Combo fields, and none of them can access them all.

7. The more access a class has to combo fields, the less access they tend to have to good finishers, and vice-versa. Aside from Scrapper.

8. If one class does a particular combination of things very well, no other class is likely to have that exact same function, though they might get something similar.

And we can’t forget: an elite spec is way, wayyyyy more than just a weapon.

Of course. I’m talking about the entire class as a whole.

Which is ironic because his suggestion for pistol falls apart under his own scrutiny.

How so?

His opinion is the correct one.

Thank you.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeas, but those are typically melee swords, like the Mesmer sword. But in GW2, that role is satisfied for the Ele with Dagger, and the “spellsword” role is covered by Mesmer and Guard, so there’s no compelling need for Ele to get it too. So that would leave us with a wandsword, which is lame, and should be something else, maybe a “scepter” of some kind. Yes, maybe Eles could get a Scepter?

Dagger isn’t a spellsword weapon. It’s a close-range spellcasting weapon, which could just as easily have been a sceptre and it would still work. In fact, it was – for much of development the roles of dagger and sceptre were the other way around for elementalist.

And it certainly isn’t a melee weapon. 300 is double the range of most melee attacks. A well-played dagger elementalist doesn’t actually commit to melee, but tries to kite around landing hits from just outside of melee range. A playstyle that involves genuine melee would be a significant difference from dagger ele.

So, the guardian is pretty much a spellsword inherently, mesmer can be a spellsword, necromancer can be a spellsword: why can’t we have an elementalist spellsword? Especially since there is precedent within the Guild Wars franchise (dervish), let alone the fantasy genre as a whole?

That was more an issue with how ANet handles projectiles. They should have made it so that it homes in on targets regardless of movement. Even so, before the league seasons started I was routinely wiping out enemies at 1200 range, even LB Rangers. The strength in Specter was never auto-attack spamming, it was the #2 and 3 skills.

Now you’re trying to argue based on how you think the game should work rather than on how it actually works. Dodging projectiles has been part of the game design since GW1 alpha. Projectile speed has likewise been a part of balancing since GW1 (as an example, compare flatbow and longbow for rangers: both had the same range, but flatbows balanced a lower projectile speed against a higher rate of fire compared to longbows).

I’m pretty sure guardian sceptre is working as intended – high potential damage output, but realising that damage output at long range against a moving target is difficult. It’s not designed as a long-range weapon. It’s designed as a medium range weapon that can be used as a long range weapon if the conditions allow for (or require) it.

Then equip Dagger and be happy. If the Eles do get a melee sword, then it cannot have a spammable 600+ range attack. Maybe a 400, maybe a few CD 600 range attacks like Thief’s Dancing Daggers, but that’s it. If it’s a fully functioning melee/medium hybrid then it’s just Daggers again.

That argument also applies to the additional ranged weapon option you favour. In fact, it applies doubly, because there are already two ranged weapons, one in the 900 range as a mainhand weapon that can be combined with an offhand, the other in the 1200 range as a self-contained whole package – any other ranged weapon is naturally going to be operating in the same ranges as an existing weapon. What benefit is there to having an additional ranged weapon? Why wouldn’t an additional ranged weapon not just be sceptre or staff again, or focus/warhorn again if an offhand

Well, there are a lot of potential answers to that, but all those answers also apply to the benefit to having another close-in weapon. In fact, there are two additional arguments for having another close-in weapon that don’t apply to having another ranged weapon:

1) As previously discussed, there is currently no melee weapon. A weapon that is genuinely melee in at least one attribute would be a distinct difference in style to the dagger which still retains standoff capability even with the closest-range attunements (air and earth), even if the maximum range is the same (600). And it hasn’t escaped me that you haven’t responded to my arguments that elementalists make enough other tradeoffs that it’s reasonable to have a weapon that goes all the way from melee to 900 or higher, particularly since being a weapon associated with an elite specialisation carries with it an opportunity cost that core weapons don’t have.
2) If a hypothetical close-range weapon was a two-handed weapon, that would allow for the close-range playstyle associated with that weapon to be offered as a whole package.

Your arguments keep circling back around to “I want to run Dagger mainhand, but I want to see a sword displayed on the model when I do so.”

So yeah, I don’t see it outperforming fire staff in straight DPS terms against a stationary target either. However, the hypothetical melee elementalist would be able to get the majority of its damage to land on a moving target (well, as much as any melee build can) and would likely have access to more active defences than the staff ele in order to help survive in melee range (at least for a time).

No, I want a playstyle that doesn’t presently exist, which would fit well with a sword (or greatsword, as the case may be).

Now, for that playstyle to work without forcing the player into an exclusively melee style (which I don’t think they’d do), it will require some ‘wandswording’ – but ArenaNet has already done that (literally with mesmer greatsword, and revenant hammer and necromancer axe are the same broad concept) so I don’t see what would stop them from doing it again. You may not be fond of it, but some people do like it, and there are also people who don’t like wandguns either.

But to support Ganthar’s point, if Staff Ele remains dominant in ranged DPS against stationary targets, and Sword Ele becomes dominant at melee DPS against mobile targets, then Eles would just become the goto DPS source in all situations, which leaves the other classes in a bad place.

Numbers can be adjusted – they’re already taking steps to tone down staff elementalist in raids. No reason to block out introducing a new playstyle.

All a hypothetical melee elementalist would really need is roughly the same damage other professions have in melee, with enough defences to have roughly the same survivability. Maybe they’d end up with less DPS… but they’d have more survivability than a staff ele with the same gear, and in PvP scenarios, they’d be more able to actually land their theoretical DPS than the staff ele dropping Lava Fonts that their target just avoids. (Something that ArenaNet has already recognised – Lava Font is already the only skill with a PvE/PvP split where the PvE version is statistically worse.)

Ghotistyx.6942:

Anet has said the Stormbow skin was not going to be a legendary. Afaik only Eureka and the pvp map were correct guesses. Everything else is unknown, or I’ve seen it at some point on the forums. The Warrior, Necro, and Guardian especs are all things I’ve definitely seen as random posts on these forums over the past year.

While this does make it a little more suspect, it also doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

People were proposing a melee ritualist who drew power through channeling the spirits of the dead into their own body as early as 2013, when ArenaNet’s policy was still “we don’t need expansions, we have Living Story”. Speaking personally, I got mesmer sword pretty much bang on months before mesmer was officially announced, when a lot of people were claiming that a cerebral spellcaster-type like mesmer couldn’t possibly have a melee option because they’re a spellcaster and spellcasters don’t use melee weapons (sound familiar?). If you get enough people looking at the same starting point, the same problems and the same constraints, some of them are going to think along the same lines as the devs and come up with recognisably similar ideas purely by coincidence. And I doubt it is purely coincidence – if the people thinking up ideas for new character options aren’t at least looking at the trends that crop up on the forums, I would be very surprised. There’s a reason that most official game forums – including this one – have a line to the effect that any idea posted to the forum becomes the property of the developer to use if they see fit without acknowledgement or compensation.

Broadly speaking, something coming up in a leak doesn’t mean it’s true. However, it probably is a little more likely to be true than picking things out at random.

Ohoni.6057:

I take my queues from how ANet designs. They seem to follow certain patterns.

That pattern gave us tempest. I’m going to take cues from patterns that aren’t terrible.

Ohoni.6057:

1. If you do one thing great, then you shouldn’t be able to do anything else well at the same time. If you do nothing great, then you can do several things well, hopefully in ways that work together. The more flexible you are, the weaker you are at each of the things you could be doing.

Generally, though, most professions can do different things well by switching weapon, or employing some other device that changes their skills significantly (such as a necromancer going to shroud – the meta PvP necro builds currently tend to run ranged weapons and use reaper shroud for melee, for instance). You can’t do multiple things great simultaneously, but you can make builds that can switch on the fly… and elementalists and engineers are supposed to be the experts at that.

You can, of course, specialise by doubling up on the same thing (such as revenants going sword/x and staff), but that’s a matter of choice.

2. All moves within a given build should be designed around a single range, either melee, skirmish, long, or standoff, with only token moves towards the other ranged for use when you’re out of position. See #1.

Not true. See my response to #1.

7. The more access a class has to combo fields, the less access they tend to have to good finishers, and vice-versa. Aside from Scrapper.

Generally speaking, the way this works for elementalist is that they generate fields with fire and water and finish using earth. Apart from sceptre, which has two blast finishers in fire.

Which is ironic because his suggestion for pistol falls apart under his own scrutiny.

How so?

From my observation (in previous posts), there are two reasons why your suggestion falls apart under your own scrutiny:

1) You’re knocking back sword on the theory that because elementalist already has one 0-600 range weapon, it doesn’t need another one. However, the same logic extended to 900 range (sceptre) and 1200 range (staff) would result in the conclusion that there’s no need for another ranges weapon – it already has two after all.

2) You’re arguing against sword on the basis that it’s not to your taste, without acknowledging that it is to the taste of some, while others might find gunwand to be just as silly as you think swordwand is. As CETheLucid said there, it’s a matter of taste and preference.

Ohoni.6057:

How so?

Ohoni.6057:

CETheLucid.3964:

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, and Eles have long range Staff and Scepter (and hopefully pistol). There’s no compelling need for a long ranged sword.

There’s no compelling need for a pistol for the same reason.

True, and at that point it becomes a thematic issue, and I’d prefer a pistol to a sword thematically. I also feel an offhand weapon would be more useful and likely than a mainhand one.

CETheLucid.3964:

Thematically I can see an elemental magus with a sword well before a firearm. But again it’s a preference thing.

I don’t doubt they could make pistol work just as they could make sword work. I just prefer sword over pistol.

CETheLucid.3964:

Ohoni.6057:

Guardian Scepter has no appreciable drop off within its effective range.

Yes, but as someone who used to love Guardian Scepter, the trade-off to that is that it’s never been great at any range. It’s versatile, but melee is better in melee, ranged is better at range. Dagger already fills that role for Eles.

Sword could absolutely still play around 130-600 range.

But again, Dagger already fills that role just fine. Eles don’t need a new weapon that can “play around within 600 range.” They would need either a weapon that is brutal within melee distance OR a weapon that is competitive at 900+ ranges. It can be brutal in melee with a token medium range attack or two, but not enough that you could actually stick at those ranges.

Furthermore, if they did get a weapon that would be brutal in melee range, they would also need way more options to stay alive in melee range. However good a tank a Tempest may be, the new elite spec (which remember would not be able to use any of the Tempest kit), would need to be even tankier to be survivable.

All that said you still want pistol which would be as redundant as the concept of a long range sword per your own arguments, because dagger and scepter.

It’s almost like it’s a matter of preference or something.

Ohoni.6057:

CETheLucid.3964:

Coldtart.4785:

Ohoni.6057:

So i see sword or GS more of pure melee weapons with less conidl then dagger and maybe more def and less healing.

So, a Warrior, basically?

What i turly want is a hammer and a pure field class with good cc ok tank ability but needs other ppl to get the max out of its effects.

Have you met Scrapper?

So having all the fields in the game some finnisher and a number of added effects to though field types and finnishing.

As for ALL the fields, that’s unlikely. ANet likes to spread things around, they don’t like giving all the fields to a single class, you basically only get more than 2-3 if you’re lucky. Engis and Rangers are your best bet though, not Ele.

Are you just completely averse to the concept of classes being able to do multiple things, including things that other classes can do and different approaches to the same thing within a class?

And we can’t forget: an elite spec is way, wayyyyy more than just a weapon.

Which is ironic because his suggestion for pistol falls apart under his own scrutiny. Nevermind that it’s all suggestion, matters of taste and preference at this point.

His opinion is the correct one.

Thank you.

You’re welcome. I know it means a lot to you.

And it certainly isn’t a melee weapon. 300 is double the range of most melee attacks. A well-played dagger elementalist doesn’t actually commit to melee, but tries to kite around landing hits from just outside of melee range. A playstyle that involves genuine melee would be a significant difference from dagger ele.

Perhaps for Ele, but it would also be very similar to many existing classes, and require a lot more tankiness out of a glassy cloth class than would currently be available. Lot of work and potential balance issues for little payoff.

So, the guardian is pretty much a spellsword inherently, mesmer can be a spellsword, necromancer can be a spellsword: why can’t we have an elementalist spellsword?

Because there are already three to choose from, and making the Ele one too would involve adding four times as many attacks as most of those?

It’s not that they can’t, it’s that it would not be the ideal use of their time and effort.

As for the Dervish, I didn’t play GW1, but from the description, they sound like Reapers.

Now you’re trying to argue based on how you think the game should work rather than on how it actually works. Dodging projectiles has been part of the game design since GW1 alpha. Projectile speed has likewise been a part of balancing since GW1 (as an example, compare flatbow and longbow for rangers: both had the same range, but flatbows balanced a lower projectile speed against a higher rate of fire compared to longbows).

Granted, it is a separate argument, but I think a fair one. I think that being able to casually dodge projectiles at long range makes a lot of them irrelevant in PvP, which is a waste of resources. They should always hit their mark when fired. The advantage that a player has defending from long range, especially against slow projectiles, should not be that they can casually stroll a few paces to the side and it misses completely, but rather that it gives them more time to react and use active defenses like evade, block, reflect, or screen.

But still, I would rather have Guardian Scepter the way it worked this time last year, warts and all, than what we have today.

It’s not designed as a long-range weapon. It’s designed as a medium range weapon that can be used as a long range weapon if the conditions allow for (or require) it.

Then why, when it was the Guardian’s ONLY long range option, did Guardians have a Trait that increased their damage based on range to target, like the Rangers did? As I said, before the nerfs, I was brutal at standoff range.

That argument also applies to the additional ranged weapon option you favour. In fact, it applies doubly, because there are already two ranged weapons, one in the 900 range as a mainhand weapon that can be combined with an offhand, the other in the 1200 range as a self-contained whole package – any other ranged weapon is naturally going to be operating in the same ranges as an existing weapon. What benefit is there to having an additional ranged weapon? Why wouldn’t an additional ranged weapon not just be sceptre or staff again, or focus/warhorn again if an offhand

If we’re talking mainhand, Scepter is a bit slow, and also purely 900 range. An option with a few 1200 range attacks would lend the Ele more options, and without locking you into all 20 abilities like Staff does. But as I’ve said, I do favor the OH option instead, and what would that provide? A strong DPS offhand. Dagger is about movement and close up attacks, and both Focus and Warhorn are focused on support, with minimal damage boost. A strong DPS-based ranged OH would open up numerous options to both Scepter and Dagger builds.

2) If a hypothetical close-range weapon was a two-handed weapon, that would allow for the close-range playstyle associated with that weapon to be offered as a whole package.

I’ll tell you right now, I think it’s brutally unlikely that ANet will ever add another two-hander to the class, not unless it comes with a restriction to only two elements. There’s just no way to balance the effort. Most classes would be getting 5, 3, even just 2 abilities out of their new weapon, and Eles would be getting 20? No way. Even just ten would be double anyone else.

Now, for that playstyle to work without forcing the player into an exclusively melee style (which I don’t think they’d do), it will require some ‘wandswording’ – but ArenaNet has already done that (literally with mesmer greatsword, and revenant hammer and necromancer axe are the same broad concept) so I don’t see what would stop them from doing it again.

Again,. that’s my argument. They have done it with other classes, which is why they have no reason to also do it with the Ele. If you want to wandsword, pick one of the wandswords.

Numbers can be adjusted – they’re already taking steps to tone down staff elementalist in raids. No reason to block out introducing a new playstyle.

So basically nerf Staff so you can have a sword? I think more people would be upset by that than pleased by it.

Generally, though, most professions can do different things well by switching weapon, or employing some other device that changes their skills significantly (such as a necromancer going to shroud

This is typically limited by Traits though. If you equip both a ranged and a melee option, you typically have to focus on making one or the other great, and the other will just be ok compared to builds that focus on it. Plus, even with weapon swapping you only get ten skills, while an ele automatically gets twenty, AND can rotate through them faster than weapon swapping. You can’t just say “I want everything they have AND what and ele gets,” there will always be tradeoffs. Because you get what eles have, you can’t have some of the things other classes can do.

Not true. See my response to #1.

And my response to your response. If you try to be a jack of all trades, you’ll be a master of none.

1) You’re knocking back sword on the theory that because elementalist already has one 0-600 range weapon, it doesn’t need another one. However, the same logic extended to 900 range (sceptre) and 1200 range (staff) would result in the conclusion that there’s no need for another ranges weapon – it already has two after all.

No. Dagger Ele is meant to operate in close, within the full 0-600 range. The other weapons are designed for longer ranges. I don’t see them making a purely melee Ele that is actually stronger in melee range than a Dagger Ele already is.

2) You’re arguing against sword on the basis that it’s not to your taste, without acknowledging that it is to the taste of some, while others might find gunwand to be just as silly as you think swordwand is. As CETheLucid said there, it’s a matter of taste and preference.

I present the “taste” argument as it is, a matter of personal preference, although I do think that “gun wands” make more sense, because with a sword-wand, you could be waving anything you want, and for some reason it just has to be a sword. Why? With a “gun wand,” it’s not that you’re waving a pistol around and magic happens, it’s that you’re employing it’s actual function, you are firing projectiles out of its barrel, and these projectiles have magical effects upon impact. It’s using the device as intended, which cannot be said for a wand-sword, as swords are meant to impact things, not be waved around.

I think Anet can add new 2hand weapon. I never had problem with amount of skills on ele. Never felt that people who complained about ele amount of skills were valid in their opinion. If Anet won’t add 2hand weapon to ele, it will be only cuz of complex, keeping low profile nothing else.