Guild Wars 2

RtL CD 40s on miss is so Stupid. For those who has like 300 Pings like us who live in Australia or anywhere in the world that far away from server location, the experience RtL when you are in 600 range to opponent then being lag back,count as miss and start 40s CD is so unbearable. Please fix it ASAP. Why we who already has less enjoyable moment with game due to lag, ping and stuff have to suffer further because of this unreasonable change? What gives?

I agree with you completely for us who live far away. I would also second it due to the fact that it only really fits for sPvP and not for WvW or PvE where it just makes life unnecessarily harder.

However for sPvP I do agree with it to an extent. I would lower it to 15/30 maybe, but the maps are so small there that a highly mobile tank breaks the game. Where in PvE no one cares who gets to the orichalcum node first, and in WvW it makes little to no tactical difference in which server or group wins. In WvW if I run away to reset the fight again and leave the camp or dolyak alone and I miss the point tick, I wouldn’t bother going back for it AND it leaves time for a bigger group of people to swoop in and kick your butt.

For anyone pointing fingers at people like Dapheonix who were able to kite 10+ people, those people were bad and should feel bad. He killed no one almost and just kited. The people who he was facing were terrible in trying to kill him. No one immobilized him or chilled him or chain CC’d him. He was an exceptionally skilled player who used the incompetence and inexperience of the players who he was facing to his advantage to kite, not kill. And eventually they did kill him. Just like tons of thieves (who even a dev once mentioned “Just leave them alone”) or mesmers. He did what he was supposed to do, pull a group of people off an objective and got them to chase him instead of doing something useful like take a tower or flip a camp.

Thanks to lag, ping and whatever reason that makes my skill carried out 2s after pressing button, I am not able to play Thief at all due to class nature requirement. Now with the RtL change, I have endured it for a while and most of here also did, but we CAN NOT keep it up anymore. Please revert RtL back or give it a Fixed CD.

Raif.9507:

I agree with you completely for us who live far away. I would also second it due to the fact that it only really fits for sPvP and not for WvW or PvE where it just makes life unnecessarily harder.

Oh it fits for WvW too, people just don’t want to admit that WvW has its own PvP balance.

Remember all those posts like: “This isn’t sPvP, Anet doesn’t balance for WvW.”

Well, they do. Sorry guys, its a strong aspect of their game which also requires balance to be fun.

Raif.9507:

However for sPvP I do agree with it to an extent. I would lower it to 15/30 maybe, but the maps are so small there that a highly mobile tank breaks the game.

A highly mobile bunker breaks the game period. You’ve missed the point of the nerf entirely. Bunkers should not be able to give chase, its part of their balance. They win, they don’t chase.

As far as the OP is concerned, I can empathize. I used to play games with a 300+ ping all the time because that’s all that was available to me. However, I don’t think breaking game balance for high-pingers is the answer. You’re at a disadvantage because of your latency, not because of a specific class balance issue.

Redscope.6215:

Raif.9507:

I agree with you completely for us who live far away. I would also second it due to the fact that it only really fits for sPvP and not for WvW or PvE where it just makes life unnecessarily harder.

Oh it fits for WvW too, people just don’t want to admit that WvW has its own PvP balance.

Remember all those posts like: “This isn’t sPvP, Anet doesn’t balance for WvW.”

Well, they do. Sorry guys, its a strong aspect of their game which also requires balance to be fun.

Raif.9507:

However for sPvP I do agree with it to an extent. I would lower it to 15/30 maybe, but the maps are so small there that a highly mobile tank breaks the game.

A highly mobile bunker breaks the game period. You’ve missed the point of the nerf entirely. Bunkers should not be able to give chase, its part of their balance. They win, they don’t chase.

As far as the OP is concerned, I can empathize. I used to play games with a 300+ ping all the time because that’s all that was available to me. However, I don’t think breaking game balance for high-pingers is the answer. You’re at a disadvantage because of your latency, not because of a specific class balance issue.

And you seem to misunderstand that the RTL nerf hurts not only the bunker but the rest of the class. If you want to hurt the bunker, you nerf the heals, not the mobility. The DPS version of the class NEEDS the mobility not to chase, but to disengage and NOT rely on a 3 minute cooldown on an elite to be able to get away.

And you didn’t do anything to prove my point for WvW wrong. There is no PvP balance for WvW that centers around 1v1. It’s centered around the game of capturing camps, keeps, scouts, dolyaks and the rest. In WvW you don’t roam as a a bunker because you won’t accomplish anything. You would go try to clear a camp and do so little damage that you wouldn’t clear it until there was a response or try to kill a dolyak and unless they left the yak alone, you wouldn’t kill it. You running away from killing they yak makes NO difference because the opponent got what it wanted. The yak into the tower.

Even in WvW you have roaming Warriors who have more health and more toughness and out damage you and are MUCH more mobile than you even with the RTL back as it used to be. You have thieves who are, well thieves. No explanation needed there. Tanky Mesmers who are a kitten to kill and can do enough damage to get what needs to be done and GTFO due to stealth and clones.

Your problem is thinking WvW centers around the 1v1 or 1vX. No one in WvW should care about that because that ISN’T what that game mode is about.

In WvW there is no problem with a roaming bunker because a zerg WILL steamroll you no matter what you are. You cannot flip a keep by yourself, you can try to take a camp alone and have it take a long time. You can try to kill a yak, and again unless its alone you will have an issue killing it because those on the yak will do as much as they can to run you off. You will succeed a lot true, but so do a lot of other roaming classes.

And no, I don’t believe they balanced for WvW when tehy did the RTL nerf. They balance it for sPvP where a mobile bunker WAS an issue. In WvW a 40 second cooldown on an escape mechanism is death. Any class that is built for roaming WILL catch up to you even if you have perma swiftness on after you blow that Lightning Flash and RTL as their gap closers are on a lower cooldown and are in some cases the same distance as RTL itself.

In WvW you are either:
1. With a zerg, where it doesn’t really matter how mobile you are so long as you can keep up with the commander.
2. Solo roaming where you spec more DPS and gear for it so that when you try to hit a camp you can do it fast and get out so that you aren’t caught in the response and there should be NO reason such a spec to not have mobility.
3. Small man havoc groups where you should be moving as a squad, almost the same as the zerg, but in combat mobility is still important to disengage when you need to.

At this moment the 40 sec cooldown is too harsh in WvW for any but the tankiest elementalist if you are running from a good player who knows what they are doing.

Raif.9507:

And you seem to misunderstand that the RTL nerf hurts not only the bunker but the rest of the class. If you want to hurt the bunker, you nerf the heals, not the mobility. The DPS version of the class NEEDS the mobility not to chase, but to disengage and NOT rely on a 3 minute cooldown on an elite to be able to get away.

This^. The class has to have some kind of defense, and with a bunker build it was heals and mobility that provided that defense. With a burst build it was just mobility that provided defense. So what did Anet do? They nerfed mobility 5 times, AND they nerfed healing. So buhbye to both ways to play an ele.

But don’t worry guys, you can buy new starfish food with gems and that 30 points into every stat will make it all better… tx anet!

Hint: Fluffy little ambient creatures are placed all throughout the map… Planning RtL around them can seriously increase your mobility by halving the cd. If you really really want the old cd, spec Aeromancer’s Alacrity. The capacity of most non-sPVP elementalists to complain without ever playing with non-standard builds astounds me.

dagneyandleo.6378:

Hint: Fluffy little ambient creatures are placed all throughout the map… Planning RtL around them can seriously increase your mobility by halving the cd. If you really really want the old cd, spec Aeromancer’s Alacrity. The capacity of most non-sPVP elementalists to complain without ever playing with non-standard builds astounds me.

Half the current cooldown is still twice what it used to be. Nubs who site some random minor trait as if no one ever tried it and think they discovered a holy grail astound me.

What’s a bigger number, 12 or 32?

dagneyandleo.6378:

Hint: Fluffy little ambient creatures are placed all throughout the map… Planning RtL around them can seriously increase your mobility by halving the cd. If you really really want the old cd, spec Aeromancer’s Alacrity. The capacity of most non-sPVP elementalists to complain without ever playing with non-standard builds astounds me.

And your condescending attitude towards some people might not be warranted thanks. I do sPvP quite often. I’ve participated in all of the previous SOAC profession tournaments too. So does Stealth. Get off your kitten high horse of a sPvP elitist attitude. You are not a god among men. Just because you sPvP doesn’t make you magically better than people who WvW.

And just because I never mentioned Aeromancers alacrity doesn’t mean I just blindly take whatever build someone posts on the forums (It’s still not a worthwhile trait to take). I theory craft all my own builds on how they work in WvW for my groups composition. No matter what class I play. It’s how you learn to play the class and learn to counter any other class.

Those little fluffy ambient creatures more often than not are not where you need them to be. And due to lag from being far away from the server, lag because zergs are colliding or the little creature decided to move 3 inches to the left due to its pathing program means you just got smacked in the face with a 40 second cooldown. Does it help when they are around? Yes. Should I have to depend on it to play the way the class should? Hell no.

I agree it’s not a worthwhile trait. Nobody uses if for a reason: the cooldown on RtL is comparatively minor in the long run. If a reduced cooldown was so incredibly important to people, they would spec for it and use ambient creatures to their advantage: 32 is bigger than 12, but 16 is much closer to 12 than 20 (or 32 or 40 if you don’t use your terrain). If the old RtL was the only thing that could make eles viable, people would jump to get even a bit of their old cd back. But they don’t, because it turns out there are other things in the eles arsenal that are more important.

I’m not saying there aren’t things about the Ele that need to be tweaked/worked on/fixed. Focus, for instance, really needs some love. The Fire trait line is still pretty much worthless. Our elite skills are not elite (though my character is a norn, so… stealth for the laughs!) Recent changes suggest that they are at least slowly attempting to buff other lines while nerfing the traditional bunker build: the two new 30 Air traits, for instance, are both very powerful when used properly. If you want survivability, Earth is also much more powerful.

Yes, mobility was nerfed. For me, the Zephyr’s Boon nerf was a much bigger deal because I was in an auramancer build. (Side note: I’ve tried playing with signets for another auramancer build, but speccing 20 into fire for it feels like wasting 15 points that are better spent elsewhere. Even though auras, on the whole, have been buffed.) Objectively, RtL is an incredibly powerful skill that should require some thought: In a fight, you should have to choose between escaping and closing the gap. If you’re solo scouting, you should be in danger. You should have to fight to keep going if you run across someone. If you’re outnumbered 5 to 1, you should have to plan your attacks to be able to get away. I realize that some other classes don’t have to do this: They should be, and in some cases have been, nerfed too.

The other side to the Daphoenix example is the inexperienced, incompetent d/d ele a few months ago who could still escape when he was outplayed and outnumbered. In the meantime, Daphoenix is still coming up with viable, fun builds (see: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Guide-Mastering-the-D-D-ele-5-12-12/page/16#post2363720). Even with nerfs, between RtL, Lightning Flash, Mist Form (sort of… I’d argue this was a MUCH bigger nerf than RtL), fire 3, and even Fiery Greatsword, you can STILL get away. Heck, this is Daphoenix post-nerf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGhPRMbmdA0. Skilled players can still wreak havoc post nerf.

There are legitimate issues with the class to debate/discuss/complain. RtL is not one of them. Furthermore, the class is still viable. You can run staff and s/d nowadays without being looked at like you’re crazy. All the hyperbole about the class being unplayable on these forums is frankly ridiculous: One build was nerfed. Other builds were buffed. That build is still viable in some situations. I make no comments about my own skill level: I’m probably just as much of a nub as you think I am. But if the class were ‘broken,’ the other eles I run with wouldn’t be able to do the incredible things they do with the skills they have available. I am still learning about new strategies and abilities we have and the situations you can use them in: Our class has so much that you can play with and try out. Relegating it to one skill or even one build is ridiculous.

In reply to your second post: I apologize for the condescension… The constant complaints about this particular nerf have been annoying me, as have the people complaining the class is broken. I could have written my original post in a less condescending, more thorough manner. Also, I am no master of sPVP. Far from it. Nor do I think it’s the only sign of a good player: I used it as an example of reaction in the form of varied builds and playstyles rather than the qq that permeates replies to PvE/WvW build threads.

I’ve never said the class is broken. The class is still fun, still enjoyable and in the hands of a capable player, can still wreak havoc. However, that same player could/would accomplish more on a different class for those specific tasks that they might do.

I do believe that RTL revert would make the class MUCH better as due to the low health/heals the DPS builds have. I speak ONLY for the DPS builds and how much this would help it. The bunker builds would benefit from this too, hence I said lower the scaling of HP and up the base heals. To help condi/burst elementalists. The one thing that is seriously lacking for the S/D burst builds is a competent, reliable disengage. Yes, I do like having to think about the abilities I use, but a 40 second punishment when NO class has something comparable is unfair.

IMO the revert on this would help those squishy eles survive more and have some form of damage mitigation (a gap increaser) comparable to steath, or clones.

I agree that there should be a way to increase mobility for DPS builds with a reliable disengage. I just don’t think the old RtL is the way to do that, since it favored bunker builds so heavily. You should not have that kind of mobility without some type of risk. If that cd was restored, it should be tied to a build type: Perhaps another component should be added to Aeromancer’s Alacrity to make it a more viable fix. Maybe combine it with One with Air? That would greatly increase mobility in dps builds, without similarly buffing bunkers.

dagneyandleo.6378:

I agree it’s not a worthwhile trait. Nobody uses if for a reason: the cooldown on RtL is comparatively minor in the long run. If a reduced cooldown was so incredibly important to people, they would spec for it and use ambient creatures to their advantage: 32 is bigger than 12, but 16 is much closer to 12 than 20 (or 32 or 40 if you don’t use your terrain). If the old RtL was the only thing that could make eles viable, people would jump to get even a bit of their old cd back. But they don’t, because it turns out there are other things in the eles arsenal that are more important.
…
ridiculous.

Ridiculous is right: By your logic, if stealth had a 40 second cooldown and thieves stopped using stealth it would be because stealth was worthless to begin with?

Your logic is flawed, and I’m not so sure you even play the game.

dagneyandleo.6378:

The other side to the Daphoenix example is the inexperienced, incompetent d/d ele a few months ago who could still escape when he was outplayed and outnumbered. In the meantime, Daphoenix is still coming up with viable, fun builds (see: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Guide-Mastering-the-D-D-ele-5-12-12/page/16#post2363720). Even with nerfs, between RtL, Lightning Flash, Mist Form (sort of… I’d argue this was a MUCH bigger nerf than RtL), fire 3, and even Fiery Greatsword, you can STILL get away. Heck, this is Daphoenix post-nerf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGhPRMbmdA0. Skilled players can still wreak havoc post nerf.

Havoc? Laugh, Out, Loud. The only player he killed in that video was an up-leveled noob. On top of that, the enemies there were not looking for a fight. They were fluffy PvErs looking to do a jumping puzzle. I’d be shocked if they had their hotbars fully equiped.

dagneyandleo.6378:

The other side to the Daphoenix example is the inexperienced, incompetent d/d ele a few months ago who could still escape when he was outplayed and outnumbered. In the meantime, Daphoenix is still coming up with viable, fun builds (see: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Guide-Mastering-the-D-D-ele-5-12-12/page/16#post2363720). Even with nerfs, between RtL, Lightning Flash, Mist Form (sort of… I’d argue this was a MUCH bigger nerf than RtL), fire 3, and even Fiery Greatsword, you can STILL get away. Heck, this is Daphoenix post-nerf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGhPRMbmdA0. Skilled players can still wreak havoc post nerf.

Ok so I like most eles am waiting for our much needed buff/nerf revert and I am not going to play till it comes (why should I? I hate leveling and i have other games.) That being said, I do have alot of respect for Excala and he is a really good ele but honestly let’s stop and look at exactly what hes capable of in that video.

First of all the people attacking him are obviously not experienced pvper’s this much is clear, they are more like a herd of sheep.

Secondly, his build is all about defense and his armor provides some damage, but his damage is extremely low and his survivability all depends on luck, if he was to be chain immobilized he wouldn’t of lasted and if those were experienced pvpers he would of been.

Thirdly, how much “havoc” is that build capable of? It’s capable of living long enough to run around obstacles so you have time to let your heals recharge while dealing low damage only capable of killing an upleveled character and a PvEr who doesn’t know when to dodge nor when to heal

This is also a very smart player whos very experienced at doing what he does. So that is playing at the full potential of what that build of ele is capable of and by what you see, if he was playing say…. a pistol/shield / grenade engineer…. He would of not only survived but also would of killed all of them aswell using basically the same playstyle.

A good zerker phantasm mesmer would of made short work of all of them as well, hardly getting a scratch

Exactly. I don’t think that an RTL revert would harm in WvW. One with air sucks balls even MORE than Aeromancers alacrity. Why in the world would that help mobility?

The whole issue of running is that after using teh RTL + LF you are stuck depending on swiftness and burning speed to get you out of trouble while classes like ranger/warrior/thief have gap closers on short cooldowns that WILL help them catch you while you have 40 seconds to go on your RTL.

And I already said, LOWER the scaling of healing power on the heal skills and up the base heal. That will make the bunker get a tradeoff. He gets the mobility that the class needs as a base, and lose healing. The reason for the increase in base heal is to help the DPS builds again. This is what they should have done in the first place. The issue of a mobile bunker was only a problem in sPvP where that bunker could reset the fight and CONSTANTLY keep the back point in contest. The other issue was that stacking Eles has a huge payback due to the AOE high heals and cleanses. So lowering the scale for the heals would target the AOE healing while giving the bunker mobility. I do believe that for sPvP that cooldown split should exist though. In that kind of game mode it’s needed. for WvW and PvE it isn’t.

You’re right that in a similar situation, a skilled other class in DPS spec would’ve wiped that group. Eles have a long way to go to get to balance/parity in terms of DPS… RtL decreased cool down wouldn’t have changed that. The point of the video was to show the mobility that is still available.

I’d still argue that the cd needs to be longer for bunker builds. Even the base heal change wouldn’t really fix that (though it would go a long way towards doing so)… Not all bunker builds stack healing power. But you guys are right: the cd shouldn’t be split for DPS builds.

So, trait proposal revamp: Aeromancer’s Alacrity reduces cooldown AND treats every RtL as a targetted RtL. I added One with Air in the first place precisely because it sucks balls… It shouldn’t be a trait on it’s own. I thought of proposing targeted RtL passive as the 25 trait, but I think passive traits should effect all weaponsets since you can’t swap them situationally without a retrait.

40s cd in general IS too high, even for bunker builds. But 12s was ridiculously low for the range and power of the skill. 25-30s would be a good mid-point reduction.

Again, I apologize for the arrogance earlier. I’m just trying to find a different solution. We’re not going to get the old skill back, but, given the direction the trait changes have gone thus far, I don’t think it’s a bad idea to bandy back and forth alternative solutions to the inherent mobility issue. Does anyone have any other ideas?

Instead of insulting everyone who says “you can’t just revert RTL,” how bout suggestions on how to implement an RTL cooldown reduction that would make it inaccessible to bunkers but still usable?

Raven.9603:

Instead of insulting everyone who says “you can’t just revert RTL,” how bout suggestions on how to implement an RTL cooldown reduction that would make it inaccessible to bunkers but still usable?

Whoa whoa whoa! And why are bunkers not allowed to have RTL that works? And since when is there such a thing as a bunker anymore? No healing during mist form means NO elementalist is a bunker anymore.

@Raven
I made a thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Ele-Discuss-Grandmaster-Air-Trait-RTL-fix/first#post1936619

This was like 2 months ago or something
It could still apply now but w/e
(maybe recharge air offhand skills when you crit slap on some internal cooldown good to go)

@ARM
The troll is strong with this one
: ^ 6

There seems to be 2 sides.

Dps elementalist

D/D elementalist (everyone assumes d/d eles are bunker)

The ol’school bunker D/D ele build was PVT. Some people mixed clerics or went full clerics.

The popular D/D bunker build was PVT mostly.

I agree with ARM to an extent the change to mist form did alot to nerf D/D ele’s. You would mist and heal up with nothing they could do about it.

Healing has been nerfed in sPvP for signet of restoration. So healing did get nerfed already the mist form nerf was a direct nerf to how effective Ether renewal was for burst healing.

Some of the suggestion in here though for more nerfs just to get RTL back to what it use to be might be a case of “careful what you wish for” in how it impacts how other people play the game which will lead to new threads about how the class is dead, how its underpowered etc for different reason.

Some warriors asked for help with conditions but nerf warrior damage.

What happened is Warrior got their damage nerfed and help with conditions. You can’t run the 2 major traits that almost every warrior took anymore and also get the new condition removal trait. You also can’t run what use to be the most popular traits anymore and put more than 10 points in anything else.

The middle ground is go with something like 25 secs on miss 15 on hit that way nothing get’s nerfed for the sake of just RTL.

oZii.2864:

Healing has been nerfed in sPvP for signet of restoration. So healing did get nerfed already the mist form nerf was a direct nerf to how effective Ether renewal was for burst healing.

IMO rock solid and ether renewal go hand in hand without making things ridiculous.

Or maybe another suggestion is since the attunements are what receive the cooldown reduction traits then the reduction is different depending on the weapon set.

They keep RTL as is now then aeromancer’s alacrity become something like.

Air Weapon skills recharge Faster: Main Hand dagger(20%)Off-hand dagger(50%) Staff (25%)focus(30%)

That way dps eles go 20 air get a even faster RTL recharge if they hit (thats the reward) they also aren’t 20 in water. Bunker eles would need to go 20 air to get the mobility but also being a bit weaker to conditions if they do so.

This could be applied to all the x Weapon skills in each attunement as the Devs see fit.

If they applied to fire for example this would make that trait more attractive being able to have faster up time on fire etc while also helping focus which has long cd’s on the fire skills which don’t make sense to me.

Just a suggestion I think could work with a bit more thought to it. It just popped into my head.

@Redscope
" However, I don’t think breaking game balance for high-pingers is the answer. You’re at a disadvantage because of your latency, not because of a specific class balance issue"

The way the skill was balanced is what makes you at a disadvantage. Being clearly within 1200 yards, using the skill, pinging out (on pingers of course) and having the skill miss and go on full cd almost every time (unless used at point blank, ok, around 600) is an issue. Having an overall higher cd (5 sec – 10 at absolute most) would remove this stupid mechanic.

I gave up D/D a long time ago. Air 2, doesn’t work unless enemy is immobile (lag issue), Fire 5, same as air 2. Air 4, 600-900 max never hits unless at <600 (this is our gap closer, you know because of the no weapon swap, if it doesn’t gap close under all circumstances then where is our weapon swap). Fire 3, same issue as Air 4.

That’s 4 skills I cant use on the weapon set.

At least S/F I only have 2 I can’t use (unless turning off auto attack on water and fire) and that is a new bug from the patch, not something that has plagued us Aussies since release (and butchered to make d/d less mobile bunker).

Here’s a fix for Anet to look at. Make the offhand dagger our movement damage weapon and the focus our bunker weapon. Wouldn’t be to hard … replace water 5 dagger with water 5 focus. Focus has 0 movement and a few bunker skills, add water 5 from dagger to focus and fix some of the crappier skills (I’m looking at fire 5) and more people might actually use it.

Currently they have been nerfing the crap out of D/D, this also hurts S/D builds. Why? To reduce our bunker age, by reducing its movement. If they buffed the Focus to be the bunker then they wouldn’t have to worry so much about the /D

Benji.9203:

@Raven
I made a thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Ele-Discuss-Grandmaster-Air-Trait-RTL-fix/first#post1936619

This was like 2 months ago or something
It could still apply now but w/e
(maybe recharge air offhand skills when you crit slap on some internal cooldown good to go)

@ARM
The troll is strong with this one
: ^ 6

No, I’m just a player who knows what he is talking about. It would be nice if I was just a PvEr though. Man it would be sweet if I could have fun killing the same mobs over and over.

ARM.3912:

Whoa whoa whoa! And why are bunkers not allowed to have RTL that works? And since when is there such a thing as a bunker anymore? No healing during mist form means NO elementalist is a bunker anymore.

This was already kind of beat to death in the thread “Conundrum”, about the exact same topic, still on the front page (cough OP cough).

Elementalists were being used as healing roamers. Essentially, they would RTL into a fight, healing ripple, dodge, trident, cleansing wave, and RTL back out. RTL is not effected by movement impairing effects, so there was no stopping it. In particular, this made 5 ele teams brokenly OP. It also effected WvW, because ele’s were “zerg breakers”, charging into a zerg, causing chaos, and RTL’ing back out.

Classes with similar or better mobility to the ele cannot heal group mates the way that ele can, and classes with similar or better mobility cannot “zerg break” because their escapes are effected by movement impairment (or in the thief’s case, they lack the fortitude).

Anet decided DPS roamers were okay but healing roamers were game breaking, so they reduced an ele’s ability to do it. It’s still very possible to do though.

It used to be that you would be on point A, RTL+run ~10 seconds to point B, heal, RTL out immediatly. With the nerf, you cant do that because of the 40sec CD. Even if you use it as an attack entry you are stuck there for 20 seconds instead of being able to bail.

I’m not saying I agree with Anets change (I think it was too harsh), but if you want it “reverted” you are going to have to keep the reasons why it was nerfed in the first place in mind when recommending changes. Anet isn’t going to lower the cooldown if they think healy-type ele’s will take it.

Raven.9603:

ARM.3912:

Whoa whoa whoa! And why are bunkers not allowed to have RTL that works? And since when is there such a thing as a bunker anymore? No healing during mist form means NO elementalist is a bunker anymore.

This was already kind of beat to death in the thread “Conundrum”, about the exact same topic, still on the front page (cough OP cough).

Elementalists were being used as healing roamers. Essentially, they would RTL into a fight, healing ripple, dodge, trident, cleansing wave, and RTL back out. RTL is not effected by movement impairing effects, so there was no stopping it. In particular, this made 5 ele teams brokenly OP. It also effected WvW, because ele’s were “zerg breakers”, charging into a zerg, causing chaos, and RTL’ing back out.

Classes with similar or better mobility to the ele cannot heal group mates the way that ele can, and classes with similar or better mobility cannot “zerg break” because their escapes are effected by movement impairment (or in the thief’s case, they lack the fortitude).

Anet decided DPS roamers were okay but healing roamers were game breaking, so they reduced an ele’s ability to do it. It’s still very possible to do though.

It used to be that you would be on point A, RTL+run ~10 seconds to point B, heal, RTL out immediatly. With the nerf, you cant do that because of the 40sec CD. Even if you use it as an attack entry you are stuck there for 20 seconds instead of being able to bail.

I’m not saying I agree with Anets change (I think it was too harsh), but if you want it “reverted” you are going to have to keep the reasons why it was nerfed in the first place in mind when recommending changes. Anet isn’t going to lower the cooldown if they think healy-type ele’s will take it.

Guardian teleport+heal+dome makes that entire argument moot.

RTL in WvW must either have the distance increased back to 1500 OR the time reduced to 15/30 sec

You bunkered with Mist Form … Bunkered … with ……. Mist From ….. nice way to neutralise the point lol.

Back on topic of going invulnerable and healing, the focus does that. The invun is better, but the focus is overall not a good as the dagger, it needs some work

ARM.3912:

No, I’m just a player who knows what he is talking about.

Yeah………..
Your right warriors are OP in pvp………
Yeah……….
Yeah……….

Benji.9203:

ARM.3912:

No, I’m just a player who knows what he is talking about.

Yeah………..
Your right warriors are OP in pvp………
Yeah……….
Yeah……….

My left ones are too.

ARM.3912:

My left ones are too.

Hey man you said it. Warriors are the best class in pvp right now and from what you’ve told me you definitely know what you are talking about. I was just agreeing with you.

: ^ D

Benji.9203:

ARM.3912:

My left ones are too.

Hey man you said it. Warriors are the best class in pvp right now and from what you’ve told me you definitely know what you are talking about. I was just agreeing with you.

: ^ D

Cool story bro. I was just pointing out the difference between your and you’re.

Reading is fundamental

To move this discussion to a more constructive place, I am going to try and list the problems with RtL prior to nerf, and the problems now so that we might be able to come to some greater consensus of a more reasonable place

Prior to nerf:
1Pre.-Bunker Eles could simply RtL into combat, drop damage/heals, and then RtL out of combat
2Pre.-There was no way to reasonably catch an ele b/c RtL is not affected by chill/cripple like other movement skills.
3Pre. The range was too far, and RtL was a nearly-guaranteed 1-button to safety. This was fixed already with range reduction.

These two effects combined to make bunker eles nearly unkillable, rather than slowly winding down like guardians stuck in a 2v1 situation.

Problems with current RtL:
1Post.-The most mobile ele build is D/D cannot outrun 5/8 of professions unless they use their elite FGS. If they try to run, they are simply pinged form range while the gap closes, then killed when caught.
2Post.- RtL misses 80% of the time when > 600 range, even when used offensively (regardless of internet latency) effectively making it a 40s cooldown skill all of the time
3Post.- RtL cannot be used offensively at all b/c doing so gives the same penalty as the defensive use

Proposals for fixing RtL so that we don’t go back to previous problems, but can fix the current problems:
1Fix. RtL goes a shorter distance on a shorter cooldown, no penalty for miss. Say 900 range on 18s cooldown. This means the bunker can go 1500 range every 18 seconds with RtL + burning speed, so it may be too much mobility
2Fix. RtL is affected by chills/cripples. Eles will still be strong, but need to be more mindful before popping RtL.
3Fix. Add a grandmaster trait that fixes RtL. The best suggestions seems to make Aeromancer’s alacrity reduce air skills differently depending on their weapon set.
4Fix. Reduce RtL cooldown to 30/15 or give it 1500 range.

I personally think that a combination of 1Fix and 2Fix are the optimal solution, as it makes RtL a reasonable offensive weapon, it gives dps ele a better way to escape (every 15s traited), it avoids 1-button escapes, and still allows the ele to be caught if he is conditioned properly (he still has cleanses like crazy, he just has to be smart now).

If you have additional suggestions for the list, please let me know so I can edit this post.

ARM.3912:

Cool story bro. I was just pointing out the difference between your and you’re.

Reading is fundamental[/quote]

Thanks man. This is the kind of motivation I need to achieve my dream of becoming a world famous author. I really appreciate the love you have for my stories. Hopefully I’ll be able to dish out more that you’ll enjoy. As for the mistake….. You are absolutely right. Rookie mistake on my part (it happens to the best of us : ^ P). It’s nice to know someone isn’t afraid to critique (people these days just don’t have OP left ones). Thanks again man. My next book “Warriors are OP: The Words of ARM” will become a best seller I swear to you now.

“Warriors are OP: The Words of ARM” coming soon to a bookstore near you.

Edit: The title is subject to change. I might go with “Prophecy of ARM” instead. Feedback is appreciated.

Benji.9203:

ARM.3912:

Cool story bro. I was just pointing out the difference between your and you’re.

Reading is fundamental

Thanks man. This is the kind of motivation I need to achieve my dream of becoming a world famous author. I really appreciate the love you have for my stories. Hopefully I’ll be able to dish out more that you’ll enjoy. As for the mistake….. You are absolutely right. Rookie mistake on my part (it happens to the best of us : ^ P). It’s nice to know someone isn’t afraid to critique (people these days just don’t have OP left ones). Thanks again man. My next book “Warriors are OP: The Words of ARM” will become a best seller I swear to you now.

“Warriors are OP: The Words of ARM” coming soon to a bookstore near you.

Edit: The title is subject to change. I might go with “Prophecy of ARM” instead. Feedback is appreciated.

The movie is actually titled “ARM, The Legend Revealed”. Check it out on youtube or grab the torrent.

Stay in school.

ARM.3912:

The movie is actually titled “ARM, The Legend Revealed”. Check it out on youtube or grab the torrent.

Stay in school.

^Thanks man. It was an interesting watch to say the least. I’m not exactly sure what game I was watching but I still found it enjoyable enough. I liked some of the song choices. It’s honestly been a while since I’ve heard flashing lights.

Don’t worry about me man I’ll stay in school. I appreciate you looking out for me though.

; ^ D

ARM.3912:

Guardian teleport+heal+dome makes that entire argument moot.

a 45second cd teleport that requires a target makes anet’s logic for nerfing RTL to 40seconds moot? you’re not making much sense. if anything it reinforces their reasoning, putting healing roamers on closer scales of power.

RTL really does need to be reverted. Everything about d/d screams melee mage assassin, and yet Anet takes away the mobility that makes it possible without giving them any other assassin tools. The D/D build should be high mobility, high damage, high risk. And yet, anet is stupid, and so now it’s just mediocre mobility, mediocre damage, very high risk.

There was nothing wrong with RTL. The problem was the mobile bunker. If the pvp devs weren’t clueless, they would have left mobility alone and nerfed d/d bunker out of viability, and boosted staff bunker back up. End result would have been the burst builds still having the mobility they need to do their job, and the bunker build being strong yet immobile.

But, the pvp devs are clueless, so the ele is in the state it is, and that probably won’t change for a year or more with the pace they work. And yes, I’m salty.

RTL is the key spell of DD and its the key spell to the fun of the profession…

Its not about being viable its about that question:

IS IT FUN?

NO!!!!!!

Revert pve/www do whatever you like in PvP.

Raven.9603:

ARM.3912:

Whoa whoa whoa! And why are bunkers not allowed to have RTL that works? And since when is there such a thing as a bunker anymore? No healing during mist form means NO elementalist is a bunker anymore.

This was already kind of beat to death in the thread “Conundrum”, about the exact same topic, still on the front page (cough OP cough).

Elementalists were being used as healing roamers. Essentially, they would RTL into a fight, healing ripple, dodge, trident, cleansing wave, and RTL back out. RTL is not effected by movement impairing effects, so there was no stopping it. In particular, this made 5 ele teams brokenly OP. It also effected WvW, because ele’s were “zerg breakers”, charging into a zerg, causing chaos, and RTL’ing back out.

Classes with similar or better mobility to the ele cannot heal group mates the way that ele can, and classes with similar or better mobility cannot “zerg break” because their escapes are effected by movement impairment (or in the thief’s case, they lack the fortitude).

Anet decided DPS roamers were okay but healing roamers were game breaking, so they reduced an ele’s ability to do it. It’s still very possible to do though.

It used to be that you would be on point A, RTL+run ~10 seconds to point B, heal, RTL out immediatly. With the nerf, you cant do that because of the 40sec CD. Even if you use it as an attack entry you are stuck there for 20 seconds instead of being able to bail.

I’m not saying I agree with Anets change (I think it was too harsh), but if you want it “reverted” you are going to have to keep the reasons why it was nerfed in the first place in mind when recommending changes. Anet isn’t going to lower the cooldown if they think healy-type ele’s will take it.

Eles were not the only zerg breakers. Never were. A team of guardians better at it than any other class and the don’t even NEED RTL because they can just walk out of the kitten zerg. Then there is the hammer warrior who is specced for bunkering who can also do it and has better CC’s and lower cooldowns for it and with Sword/Warhorn in their offhand can escape too.

And kitten , you can stop RTL. Immobilize, ANY knockdown or knockback or pull. I’ve been guardian pulled, hammer f1 cc’d, mesmer pulled, thief scorpion wired out of RTL. Does it require timing? Yes. Is it possible? Yes. Watch the elementalists bar. He goes into air? immobilize. Bam. Ele is in RTL for 2 seconds and can’t do kitten. Or, Chill right before he does it.

I only think the cooldown needs to be changed, not the range. Range should be 1200, not be reverted to the original 1500.

And what made 5 team ele’s so op wasn’t RTL. It was that they would all go some form of the 0/10/0/30/30 and have MASSIVE aoe heals and cleanses almost rendering necros and engis useless and making damage stay on a good team very hard to do because they would just rotate in and out of water. They would just outlast everything due to the HEALING, not RTL. RTL just allowed those eles to go to points they needed be at. When they got there quickly and started to AOE heal the problem begins anew.

Stealth.9324:

RtL CD 40s on miss is so Stupid. For those who has like 300 Pings like us who live in Australia or anywhere in the world that far away from server location, the experience RtL when you are in 600 range to opponent then being lag back,count as miss and start 40s CD is so unbearable. Please fix it ASAP. Why we who already has less enjoyable moment with game due to lag, ping and stuff have to suffer further because of this unreasonable change? What gives?

Same. RTL routinely overshoots targets or lags me back to ~600 game units from cast point. 40sec CD even though I have a target selected in range due to badly coded network prediction/collision detection. It’s infuriating.

BlackBeard.2873:

Proposals for fixing RtL so that we don’t go back to previous problems, but can fix the current problems:
1Fix. RtL goes a shorter distance on a shorter cooldown, no penalty for miss. Say 900 range on 18s cooldown. This means the bunker can go 1500 range every 18 seconds with RtL + burning speed, so it may be too much mobility
2Fix. RtL is affected by chills/cripples. Eles will still be strong, but need to be more mindful before popping RtL.
3Fix. Add a grandmaster trait that fixes RtL. The best suggestions seems to make Aeromancer’s alacrity reduce air skills differently depending on their weapon set.
4Fix. Reduce RtL cooldown to 30/15 or give it 1500 range.

I personally think that a combination of 1Fix and 2Fix are the optimal solution, as it makes RtL a reasonable offensive weapon, it gives dps ele a better way to escape (every 15s traited), it avoids 1-button escapes, and still allows the ele to be caught if he is conditioned properly (he still has cleanses like crazy, he just has to be smart now).

If you have additional suggestions for the list, please let me know so I can edit this post.

Good points. Fix2 in particular is a great idea… That would mitigate many of the issues with the skill. In general, I think we’d all agree that if targeted/untargeted separation is going to exist, it should reliably work. Which it doesn’t. In zergs, sometimes it doesn’t work due to skill lag, but let’s face it: None of our skills work due to skill lag in that situation. Makes for some funny fights though, when you can run through a ball of 100 and not get hit.

Redscope.6215:

A highly mobile bunker breaks the game period. You’ve missed the point of the nerf entirely. Bunkers should not be able to give chase, its part of their balance. They win, they don’t chase.

Actually, it is you who missed the point.

The RTL change didn’t nerf bunkers. It nerfed mobility on a class the requires it to stay alive because we have the lowest base survivability in the game. This means that everyone that isn’t a bunker actually took a much bigger nerf than the builds you claim needed it the most.

Anyways, bunkers were never OP to begin with. Most of the complaints came from people not getting kills because the ele ran away, not because the ele was owning people left and right. Bunkers could kill people for sure and was nasty 1v1, but they hit like wet noodles and took a LONG time doing it.

covenn.7165:

Anyways, bunkers were never OP to begin with. Most of the complaints came from people not getting kills because the ele ran away, not because the ele was owning people left and right. Bunkers could kill people for sure and was nasty 1v1, but they hit like wet noodles and took a LONG time doing it.

I do agree here. I played the bunker and the ONLY time I had even half-decent damage was when I worked my might stacks up to 9+. I think just nerfing bountiful power + sigil of battle would have fixed most of what was wrong with the bunker. Sure, it could heal for days and stay alive indefinitely (or ran out of stun-breaks), but it could NEVER do decent damage. This would force a shift away from the sustain a bit, fixing the problem.

I really think we are in a place now where giving us RTL back (even affected by movement-impairing conditions) on a reasonable cooldown wouldn’t hurt the meta at all.

@coven & BlackBeard
People called OP because some D/D players specced glass cannon and wiped the floor with an enemy expecting a bunker and wet noodle damage. I used to run 0 15 0 25 30 with zerkers and divinity, I did not hit like a wet noodle and the build made up the defences I needed. Not only that but all the

D/Ds keep complaining about stun break losses on cleansing fire and lightning flash. Did any of you use them for stun break? LF + CE totally stun breaker. I used to use LF to mix up my foes. RTL into Updraft …. predictably … Lightning Flash into updraft troloolooolo. Switch to fire now, burning speed into fire grab …. to predictable … fire grab when foe is not burning and popping cleansing fire, lol. How many of you know that cleansing fire applies burning and can be used with fire grab?

How many of you can claim to have beaten D/Ds or made them run with their tails between their legs using D/D yourself? While I never went up against the very best of D/Ds I did make it quite clear to anyone in hotjoins using the build to go home and rethink their builds, because I do not want any of their death sticks.

Why 15 air? Lightning bolt on air swap. Attacking a guardian? switch to air, say good by to aegis, teleport, say goodbye to second aegis updraft … no aegis sorry guys.

Ah the memories, good old 0 0 10 30 30 staff with a 0 0 10 30 30 D/D back at release, go to center, take on enemies 5-8 zergers, laugh at your invulnerability (until getting backstabbed lol). Go into tournies, win 4(us)v5s 2 rounds in a row, laugh. Get nerfed, continue to use a similar build, get nerfed again, change d/d build to beat other d/ds. Then hear about signet changes, switch to S/F signet aura build and not look back.

It certainly killed a big chunk of the fun of the class in PVE/getting around in the world.

Rever RTL to beta.

- Nothing unlocked while RTL .

Fully agree, the split cooldown is so fail. 20 seconds flat, with the range reduction would have been fine.

I just never use the thing anymore, a sure sign of an overnerf.