Guild Wars 2

I can’t figure it out. I am going to try and be as logical as possible about this bit I really cant wrap my head around it.

First off the Math
I did this a while ago but none of the math has changed

Warrior Rush -> Bull’s Charge (range is actually 900) -> Whirlwind Attack -> swap to sword and Savage Leap

Total range covered 1200 + 900 + 450 +600 = 3,150 4 seconds total time

Elementalist RtL -> Burning Speed -> Lightning Flash

Total range covered 1200 + 600 + 900 = 2,700 Total time 3 seconds

Ranger Hornet Sting (you flip the camera toward your opponent cast the skill. You wont get hit as the skill is an evade 130 units described but the real value is closer to 400) -> Monarch’s Leap -> Lightning Reflexes (flip the camera same as Hornet sting. the skil evades also unlisted but moves 600 units) -> GS Swoop

Total range covered 400 + 600 + 600 +1100 = 2,700 total time 4 seconds. However, due to swoops naturally low cd of 12 seconds compared to the 20 for rtl and rush ranger is the most mobile class in the game.

Thief base initiative of 12 and 1.33 second replenish

Heartseeker (range is 450 but distance traveled is affected by movement effect ie swiftness etc) cost is 3. Doing this 4 times in a row covers 1800 units however by the time you finish the last cast with each skill taking 3/4 a second to execute you would have recovered 2 initiative. -> Shadowstep

Total range covered 1800 (450 × 4)+ 1200 = 3000 total time 3.25 seconds. However, by the time you finished your shadow step at base regen you would receive your next initiative allowing for one more HS so total range is actually 3,450 total time 4 seconds

Ele is the forth most mobile class. Thief is number one in a sprint, and ranger is number one over time using a strictly melee set.

Chase

First off forget about running away. If we are chasing someone and our Rtl Hits nothing we are now in 40 second cd which mean on most mobile classes we aren’t even going to catch up. Literally if your out of range or out of combat not only can you not run but you cant catch up either.

the math just doesn’t add up. Without access to stealth fear or diversion why should DD be less mobile than other mobile set when everyone uses gap closers for mobility.

This is a petition or complaint it’s a question of logic. Please do not respond I ask genuinely if you aren’t ready to talk about this logically. this has no need to be a flame war.

It does make sense if you add to the math the insane amount of healing the current FOTM ele build can pull off. Being able to pop out of the fight, heal up and pop in again multiple times is a big part of what makes the build OP.

After the patch you will have to actually think about if you really want to use RtL to kite your opponent because it’s not so easy anymore to just reset the fight whenever and how often you want.

It’ not like they are destroying the build like they are doing with Condi-Mesmer.

Iavra.8510:

It does make sense if you add to the math the insane amount of healing the current FOTM ele build can pull off. Being able to pop out of the fight, heal up and pop in again multiple times is a big part of what makes the build OP.

After the patch you will have to actually think about if you really want to use RtL to kite your opponent because it’s not so easy anymore to just reset the fight whenever and how often you want.

It’ not like they are destroying the build like they are doing with Condi-Mesmer.

You see it get that but this why I asked for logical responses. This has 0 to do with the weapon set or math for that matter.

What about bunker rangers? Healing is on Par or exceeds ele with more mobility and access to fear through the terrifying howl. A ranger doesn’t have to build bunker though and neither does ele. Healing arguments are pointless as the only class that can’t build for sustained healing is warrior.

None of the healing matters because all that matters is the weapon set. If an ele isn’t speced for healing how can you possibly justify this nerf?

Stick with the math, please.

Iavra.8510:

It does make sense if you add to the math the insane amount of healing the current FOTM ele build can pull off. Being able to pop out of the fight, heal up and pop in again multiple times is a big part of what makes the build OP.

After the patch you will have to actually think about if you really want to use RtL to kite your opponent because it’s not so easy anymore to just reset the fight whenever and how often you want.

It’ not like they are destroying the build like they are doing with Condi-Mesmer.

what you say is not taking into account the mega-nerf on Myst Form; it would be barely tollerable to be forced to choose how to use RTL instead of just getting results, BUT without the ability to partially recover damage during a fight makes our classes change its role completely.
Other than this changes being completely unwelcome, devs aren’t offering any VIABLE alternative to compensate for such critical nerfbatting.

Yeah i’m not counting in the Mist Form nerf. It seemed okay to me up to this point so i just wanted to discuss the points i’m concerned about.

And RtL is tied to a specific weapon set ^^ Or, atleast, half a set.

/edit: Let’s just hoping eles got something in exchange the same way i’m hoping for condi-mesmers.

The primary complaints about eles are in regard their self-healing and condition removal.

Yet the Mist Form change affects builds that can’t facetank damage far more than those that can, and RtL was only a complaint due to the class’s healing capability and because it’s unaffected by Cripple/Chill.

They didn’t have ANY sort of compensation ready for these nerfs, so they may as well have just introduced the boon-hate for thieves and warriors and left it at that for this patch in regard to elementalists.

-Glyph of Storms air and earth durations slightly increased

I mean WHY? WHAT IS THIS?!

Chaosky.5276:

The primary complaints about eles are in regard their self-healing and condition removal.

Yet the Mist Form change affects builds that can’t facetank damage far more than those that can, and RtL was only a complaint due to the class’s healing capability and because it’s unaffected by Cripple/Chill.

They didn’t have ANY sort of compensation ready for these nerfs, so they may as well have just introduced the boon-hate for thieves and warriors and left it at that for this patch in regard to elementalists.

-Glyph of Storms air and earth durations slightly increased

I mean WHY? WHAT IS THIS?!

I dont actually disagree. Mist form change I actually agree with as well as the reduced healing on SoR. I understand those things. RtL is tricky because we get to do direct comparison. The math is up there and it still doesn’t make sense to touch RtL. Its simply too much punishment.

In the long run it becomes this.

DD Ele
-Can’t chase
-Can’t run
-Can’t burst
-Can bunker

and that is all that is really left to us.

No one likes to stand up for DD ele but since the start I feel that DPS DD ele get the shaft for bunker and end up suffering for it.

If they are going to balance this way than at least be logical because this is whack-a-mole at work.

IMO, they should have just reduced the distance and not touch the CD.

Though, one thing to note that as compared to skills like Rush, RTL is not affected by Cripple. That’s a huge advantage.

your post would be a valid argument….except, Thieves have to use their initiative…so after they burn all their initiative to go those 3000 units……they are screwed about doing anything once they get there, they can’t even weapon swap to do more damage

an ele would have a plethora of options after using those 2 weapon skills + utility skill….stay in fire or lightning to do damage…then switch to water and earth to do some more damage

Anet’s goal was to punish the X/X/X/30/30 “BUNKER” DD Ele build but what they are doing in fact is destroying the zerker dd ele which is in no way OP. This RTL nerf will severely limit the viability of all non-bunker dd ele builds.

Anet, what is it that you want to do? Do you want to reduce the effectiveness of the cantrip dd ele? Or do you want everyone to stop playing the Elementalist all together?

Escthiil.3210:

IMO, they should have just reduced the distance and not touch the CD.

Though, one thing to note that as compared to skills like Rush, RTL is not affected by Cripple. That’s a huge advantage.

And your right about cripple but if we talk about advantages and disadvantages we have to factor the gambit. There are simply more mobility options on warrior and rangers and Skills like rush and swoop can be canceled out of if need be while RtL is technically a self stun. Also skills like Rush and Swoop are affected by movement effects like Swiftness and 25% movement speed signets. However RtL is not so it is a 2 way street.

Jordo.5913:

your post would be a valid argument….except, Thieves have to use their initiative…so after they burn all their initiative to go those 3000 units……they are screwed about doing anything once they get there, they can’t even weapon swap to do more damage

an ele would have a plethora of options after using those 2 weapon skills + utility skill….stay in fire or lightning to do damage…then switch to water and earth to do some more damage

But you fail to mention that in the 20 seconds while everyone waits on CDs (save ranger) how much initiative would be recovered? Think about it. While it is true initiative is a crutch the replenish rate doesn’t leave you without it for very long. 1.33 seconds per point untraited not even factoring in steal and stealth.

Also technically when you got there if you switched to SB in the process which has the same catch up skills you could be doing DPS for the whole second half and the HS to them in the last stretch should do damage also. Since thief loses no mobility going over to Shortbow the math is the same 6 init for 900 range. Its the only class that has that much mobility on a ranged set and isn’t locked into melee to get it.

Sorry my post is valid.

To sum this up the recharge rate on initiative isn’t slow enough to use it as a valid reason for the nerf and thief is the only set that can do that much mobility not only not being locked into melee but also having a ranged weapon with the same mobility as a melee set.

See shortbow’s Infiltrator Arrow for more info.

TheGuy.3568:

In the long run it becomes this.

DD Ele
-Can’t chase
-Can’t run
-Can’t burst
-Can bunker

they want us to be the Joke of all trades

TheGuy.3568:

Escthiil.3210:

IMO, they should have just reduced the distance and not touch the CD.

Though, one thing to note that as compared to skills like Rush, RTL is not affected by Cripple. That’s a huge advantage.

And your right about cripple but if we talk about advantages and disadvantages we have to factor the gambit. There are simply more mobility options on warrior and rangers and Skills like rush and swoop can be canceled out of if need be while RtL is technically a self stun. Also skills like Rush and Swoop are affected by movement effects like Swiftness and 25% movement speed signets. However RtL is not so it is a 2 way street.

Jordo.5913:

your post would be a valid argument….except, Thieves have to use their initiative…so after they burn all their initiative to go those 3000 units……they are screwed about doing anything once they get there, they can’t even weapon swap to do more damage

an ele would have a plethora of options after using those 2 weapon skills + utility skill….stay in fire or lightning to do damage…then switch to water and earth to do some more damage

But you fail to mention that in the 20 seconds while everyone waits on CDs (save ranger) how much initiative would be recovered? Think about it. While it is true initiative is a crutch the replenish rate doesn’t leave you without it for very long. 1.33 seconds per point untraited not even factoring in steal and stealth.

Also technically when you got there if you switched to SB in the process which has the same catch up skills you could be doing DPS for the whole second half and the HS to them in the last stretch should do damage also. Since thief loses no mobility going over to Shortbow the math is the same 6 init for 900 range. Its the only class that has that much mobility on a ranged set and isn’t locked into melee to get it.

Sorry my post is valid.

To sum this up the recharge rate on initiative isn’t slow enough to use it as a valid reason for the nerf and thief is the only set that can do that much mobility not only not being locked into melee but also having a ranged weapon with the same mobility as a melee set.

See shortbow’s Infiltrator Arrow for more info.

what i’m saying is….an Elementalist has a plethora of combos with weapon skills it can still pull off AFTER using its mobility skills to catch up

a thief has to blow all their initiative…..and sometimes this could be even before a fight begins….blowing all ur inititive at the beginning of a fight is not what you want to do as a thief….you want to go in with full initiative….if you get into a situation where you have a thief using initiative to catch up to you rather than damage you…you’ve already won that fight

yes you eles have to wait 20s for mobility cd’s to come back up…but thieves have to wait for mobility AND damage, just not as long….i’d say your high cd’s for mobility is a fair trade for still being able to put out quite a bit of damage afterwards…otherwise you guys would be OP

so with your and my thoughts on the IDEAL situation for a thief….would be to have enough initiative to use CnD upon reaching its target, to go into stealth and regen a bit of that initiative back up…that is 6 initiative, taken away from the base 12….so you have 6 initiative for mobility uses…that is roughly 2 heartseekers + shadowstep…by the time regen kicks in you get another heartseeker….

so 3 heartseekers (450×3) + shadowstep (900) = 2250 units + able to cast CnD

in the situations your describing….

if a thief and ele are one on one and they both blow all their mobility skills like your listing…..an ele will still have tons of combos to pull off on the thief, while the thief will sit there trying to auto attack….who do you think is going to win?

EDIT: you even said it best in the other thread: “Only sloppy thief blows their entire bar with nothing left and no stealth.”….yet in this math to make your argument, you have them blowing all their initiative

Warrior combo actually takes like 6 seconds.

Using warrior mobility as a means of arguing your point is kind of moot considering how bad warriors are right now in terms of meta. Like, really bad.

This new patch could change that though.

Jordo.5913:

TheGuy.3568:

Escthiil.3210:

IMO, they should have just reduced the distance and not touch the CD.

Though, one thing to note that as compared to skills like Rush, RTL is not affected by Cripple. That’s a huge advantage.

And your right about cripple but if we talk about advantages and disadvantages we have to factor the gambit. There are simply more mobility options on warrior and rangers and Skills like rush and swoop can be canceled out of if need be while RtL is technically a self stun. Also skills like Rush and Swoop are affected by movement effects like Swiftness and 25% movement speed signets. However RtL is not so it is a 2 way street.

Jordo.5913:

your post would be a valid argument….except, Thieves have to use their initiative…so after they burn all their initiative to go those 3000 units……they are screwed about doing anything once they get there, they can’t even weapon swap to do more damage

an ele would have a plethora of options after using those 2 weapon skills + utility skill….stay in fire or lightning to do damage…then switch to water and earth to do some more damage

But you fail to mention that in the 20 seconds while everyone waits on CDs (save ranger) how much initiative would be recovered? Think about it. While it is true initiative is a crutch the replenish rate doesn’t leave you without it for very long. 1.33 seconds per point untraited not even factoring in steal and stealth.

Also technically when you got there if you switched to SB in the process which has the same catch up skills you could be doing DPS for the whole second half and the HS to them in the last stretch should do damage also. Since thief loses no mobility going over to Shortbow the math is the same 6 init for 900 range. Its the only class that has that much mobility on a ranged set and isn’t locked into melee to get it.

Sorry my post is valid.

To sum this up the recharge rate on initiative isn’t slow enough to use it as a valid reason for the nerf and thief is the only set that can do that much mobility not only not being locked into melee but also having a ranged weapon with the same mobility as a melee set.

See shortbow’s Infiltrator Arrow for more info.

what i’m saying is….an Elementalist has a plethora of combos with weapon skills it can still pull off AFTER using its mobility skills to catch up

a thief has to blow all their initiative…..and sometimes this could be even before a fight begins….blowing all ur inititive at the beginning of a fight is not what you want to do as a thief….you want to go in with full initiative….if you get into a situation where you have a thief using initiative to catch up to you rather than damage you…you’ve already won that fight

yes you eles have to wait 20s for mobility cd’s to come back up…but thieves have to wait for mobility AND damage, just not as long….i’d say your high cd’s for mobility is a fair trade for still being able to put out quite a bit of damage afterwards…otherwise you guys would be OP

the IDEAL situation for a thief….would be to have enough initiative to use CnD upon reaching its target, to go into stealth and regen a bit of that initiative back up…that is 6 initiative, taken away from the base 12….so you have 6 initiative for mobility uses…that is roughly 2 heartseekers + shadowstep…by the time regen kicks in you get another heartseeker….

so 3 heartseekers (450×3) + shadowstep (900) = 2250 units + able to cast CnD

in the situations your describing….

if a thief and ele are one on one and they both blow all their mobility skills like your listing…..an ele will still have tons of combos to pull off on the thief, while the thief will sit there trying to auto attack….who do you think is going to win?

The problem with all your scenarios is that the poor thief has blown all their initiative from the start. This makes no sense. Further more the reason you won’t get a full response is the math is there and once again you ignore steal. Fact is if you use this sort of argument ignore initiative regen and the availability of movement skills (consider no CDs) you also end up arguing that warrior and ranger should be nerfed as well.

BTW like said HS was just an example explain this. Thief is the most mobile class. You also ignored the dual 1’200 range on shadowstep. This isn’t just about chase its about mobility realize that.

Argue all the points or don’t argue at all.

Jordo.5913:

EDIT: you even said it best in the other thread: “Only sloppy thief blows their entire bar with nothing left and no stealth.”….yet in this math to make your argument, you have them blowing all their initiative

All I was doing an example of mobility. You could literally shadow refuge and dodge twice while in it and walk away for no initiative what so ever.

I mean I know your trying to make a point here but if its just going to be blow all now all thieves are defenseless I have got to ask if you even play the class in any capacity?

As long as you don’t factor in stealth whats the point of discussion? You are talking CnD CnD CnD. I ma talking about actual capability to move around the field. No one is stronger than thief.

Also the auto attack thing. Thief can burst continuously ele can’t. thief can also run S/D which is highly reliant on the third sword hit for most of its DPS in through auto attack chain. Also DD ele only has 3 big hitting skills on long CDs. Most of the DPS comes from auto attack. I am not going to go over it because you should know.

Learn the class before you come to argue over opportunity cost. A smart thief understands this. Every scenario where you blow it all you assume chasing. But to chase you barely have to use any. However, the nerf is all about escape. think about it before you post again or not I won’t respond if you don’t. I don’t argue with those that don’t learn.

wookie.8934:

Using warrior mobility as a means of arguing your point is kind of moot considering how bad warriors are right now in terms of meta. Like, really bad.

This new patch could change that though.

In terms of WvW mines outruns your basic DD ele. So no its not moot at all. the build is someplace in these post I don’t feel like linking it again. The gist is Sw + GS is enough out run the set. You need bull charge to counter lightning flash.

Also using your logic ranger shouldn’t be mobile either considering you can use a bunker regen build with great efficiency.

This is about the weapon sets not what could possibly be built into the build.

Funniest thing to me is that they want to nerf RTL, because they dont want eles to escape from dire situations (I assume).

But they are looking at ways to make thiefs even more mobile (steal shadowstep), so they can escape from even more situations…

Basicly, it feels to me that arenanet thinks eles should just die and thiefs should be able to escape even more (and also have more survivability, while dishing out more damage in the future (higher multipliers)).

I don’t think I will roam with my ele anymore in WvW.

Stoneflesh.8634:

Funniest thing to me is that they want to nerf RTL, because they dont want eles to escape from dire situations (I assume).

But they are looking at ways to make thiefs even more mobile (steal shadowstep), so they can escape from even more situations…

Basicly, it feels to me that arenanet thinks eles should just die and thiefs should be able to escape even more (and also have more survivability, while dishing out more damage in the future (higher multipliers)).

I don’t think I will roam with my ele anymore in WvW.

Honestly I roam thief more often or warrior already. It just makes more sense most of the time.

^ Basically.

The players in SOTG basically called out Anet on the flaws of their plan – they probably won’t even do enough to discourage Bunker Eles and they then went ahead and damaged the potential viability of other /D Ele builds.

So if you go in and the opponent dodges the attack you are in combat for 40s with less survival mechanics and armor than already squishy thieves. Non Bunker builds would often use both Mist Form and RtL to compensate – as their own survival schemes, but both got hit.

This change in mobility very literally pigeonholes WvW roamers into rolling thief. As if the amount of classes that can roam effectively needed to get smaller.

Which is what happens when you allow classes to be the “best” at different roles. Nobody uses them for anything that they aren’t best at. So for all intents and purposes we end up choosing the class – not the player, as is what happens in so many other MMOs and part of the reason I chose GW2; to get away from bad game design.

As if the terrible state of PVP weren’t a giveaway, I see I made an error.

TainoFuerte.8136:

^ Basically.

The players in SOTG basically called out Anet on the flaws of their plan – they probably won’t even do enough to discourage Bunker Eles and they then went ahead and damaged the potential viability of other /D Ele builds.

So if you go in and the opponent dodges the attack you are in combat for 40s with less survival mechanics and armor than already squishy thieves. Non Bunker builds would often use both Mist Form and RtL to compensate – as their own survival schemes, but both got hit.

This change in mobility very literally pigeonholes WvW roamers into rolling thief. As if the amount of classes that can roam effectively needed to get smaller.

Which is what happens when you allow classes to be the “best” at different roles. Nobody uses them for anything that they aren’t best at. So for all intents and purposes we end up choosing the class – not the player, as is what happens in so many other MMOs and part of the reason I chose GW2; to get away from bad game design.

As if the terrible state of PVP weren’t a giveaway, I see I made an error.

Yep, I don`t do the whole zergling thing, it is tedious, so I roam so that I can actually (shock horror) do some pvp in these borderlands maps, but all I`ve seen lately is an insane number of troll Thieves, along with some trying & that are terribad (one alone filled 50 bag slots the other day, poor masochist)…

So hours before this stream (think I must be psychic ;p) I made one to be annoying little git & ye gads, level 6 rat thief against some terribads, I was stunned how easy it is.
If you are dying, stealth, jump about behind enemy, bang, either they die or I just run along like a good little coward & troll some more

Don`t get me wrong, I flat out hate having made one, Ele` despite all of its flaws/bugs/stuck range etc is just fun, but I refuse to play what is more then likely going to be dragged back to a kittening free kill for everyone & their granny waiting for Anet to stop kittening about….

Escthiil.3210:

Though, one thing to note that as compared to skills like Rush, RTL is not affected by Cripple. That’s a huge advantage.

Though, one thing to note as compared to skills like RTL, Rush is effected by swiftness and doesn’t prevent you from using instant casts. That’s a huge advantage.

Wildclaw.6073:

Escthiil.3210:

Though, one thing to note that as compared to skills like Rush, RTL is not affected by Cripple. That’s a huge advantage.

Though, one thing to note as compared to skills like RTL, Rush is effected by swiftness and doesn’t prevent you from using instant casts. That’s a huge advantage.

I think this should be looked at objectively.

Rush is affected by Cripple AND Swiftness. (Even with swiftness, it’s not faster than RTL, as far as I know.)
It allows instant casts so you could handle any cripple on you, maybe. That’s what I think they had in mind.

RTL is not affected by Cripple NOR Swiftness. It has a flat rate for its speed.
It does not allow instant casts, which I believe is a reasonable trade-off for its flat rate of speed.

Let’s be honest. If you are running from an outnumbered fight, will you prefer RTL that can bring you to safety so much quicker and more foolproof, or rush, in which a simple cripple can mess you up?

Don’t know about you. But I will pick RTL any day still.

Feel free to add on whatever you feel will add on to this. Constructively, of course.

You cannot compare mobility in isolation of all other mechanics in the game. In contrast to other classes an elementalist that leaves the fight with RTL can quickly recover, because of his strong healing ability and low cooldowns. The mobility itsself isn’t a problem, but its combination with the core mechanics of the ele is. In WvW it’s almost impossible to die with my d/d elementalist despite wearing berseker gear. Unless you go full rambo, the three stunbreaks and RTL save your life in every situation.

It makes no sense to compare these numbers, because you ignore all other skills and abilities. It’s a narrow and wrong view of game balance.

You’re forgetting that that swap to Air Attune grants aoe Swiftness for 5 seconds, and the ele exiting their combo still has mist form that can be tossed on the end for additional escapability (yes, warriors have Endure Pain as well). A fast enough and well prepared enough ele could also drop a fiery greatsword for access to Fiery Whirl (900 range, 5 second cooldown).

FirstBlood.7359:

You cannot compare mobility in isolation of all other mechanics in the game. In contrast to other classes an elementalist that leaves the fight with RTL can quickly recover, because of his strong healing ability and low cooldowns. The mobility itsself isn’t a problem, but its combination with the core mechanics of the ele is. In WvW it’s almost impossible to die with my d/d elementalist despite wearing berseker gear. Unless you go full rambo, the three stunbreaks and RTL save your life in every situation.

It makes no sense to compare these numbers, because you ignore all other skills and abilities. It’s a narrow and wrong view of game balance.

So your saying ele healing is core mechanic present in the class no matter what your traits are? Your also saying that full zerker gear ele is impossible to kill in Wv3 or nearly that? In this particular instance I demand proof if you intend to say that. Realize you are literally saying DD Zerker ele has no issue with survivability. I would really love to see you back that up.

Now if you read the full discussion this has already been brought up. I could make the same argument about bunker ranger and I play one too. I could make the same argument about a thief and say it has too much burst to be that mobile.

You know what I find the funniest is the lack of scope. I play every mobile class. The thing i find funniest is ele is already the least mobile of the 4. The sad part unless you bunker now you have no means of escape.

You tell me how moving rtl’s cooldown to 40 seconds makes sense. Tell me what justifies that since you say there are other elements at play here. Really if you want to discuss than discuss. You have number maths builds core mechanics. What justifies it?

Syeria.4812:

You’re forgetting that that swap to Air Attune grants aoe Swiftness for 5 seconds, and the ele exiting their combo still has mist form that can be tossed on the end for additional escapability (yes, warriors have Endure Pain as well). A fast enough and well prepared enough ele could also drop a fiery greatsword for access to Fiery Whirl (900 range, 5 second cooldown).

First off your talking about a trait in arcane called Elemental Attunement it is not inherent to ele in every build.

You already stated other classes have invuls to so I miss your point here.

I literally suggested FGS already that being said it doesn’t justify having a gap closer be incapable of being used as an escape skill or consistent closer because if it doesn’t hit ele cannot not catch up.

If you dont pllay ele you are familiar with only d/d and s/d bunker.You think thats what elementalist is..healing and regen.Truth is that not water invested specs dont have any of that attributes and also suck atm.Those will be thrown into the grave even harder after this comes up

kostbabis.8791:

If you dont pllay ele you are familiar with only d/d and s/d bunker.You think thats what elementalist is..healing and regen.Truth is that not water invested specs dont have any of that attributes and also suck atm.Those will be thrown into the grave even harder after this comes up

Most eles do know this. This is another patch like the nerf to fury that literally puts us more in the position to be bunkers. While it is true bunkers are getting nerfed fact is if we can’t have feasible escape plan (actually more a stalling tactic), then we have no choice to bunker more so we can survive longer.

TheGuy.3568:

You tell me how moving rtl’s cooldown to 40 seconds makes sense. Tell me what justifies that since you say there are other elements at play here. Really if you want to discuss than discuss. You have number maths builds core mechanics. What justifies it?

The D/D elementalist excels in all aspects of pvp: great sustain in close combat, boon support for his team, strong utility such as knockdowns and great mobility with RTL. Currently, this build has no weakness. Thieves can’t stay in close combat for long, warriors can’t do anything at all against competent players, but elementalist can do everything. Now it’s time to tone down the d/d elementalist and bring him back to a normal level.

The nerf only applies to the non-target use of RTL, in other words: running away. Despite the 40s CD on RTL you still have two very useful auras, when it comes to escaping, permanent swiftness, vigor for well timed dodges and the benefits such as stability/invulnerability/blink from cantrips.

The times of jumping in a fight without further thought, rolling over the keyboard, RTL’ing out and healing up are over.

TheGuy.3568:

First off your talking about a trait in arcane called Elemental Attunement it is not inherent to ele in every build.

You already stated other classes have invuls to so I miss your point here.

I literally suggested FGS already that being said it doesn’t justify having a gap closer be incapable of being used as an escape skill or consistent closer because if it doesn’t hit ele cannot not catch up.

Find me a /D build that is used by more than an extreme edge case of users that doesn’t invest 10 points in Arcana. If you can do that, you might have a chance at having a point here. I’m not holding my breath.

If you don’t know how Mist Form differs from other classes (or acknowledge the fact that such invul skills are not universal) there’s really no helping you.

I’m sorry I don’t e-stalk you. Guess if you knew about something so well like that, maybe you should have put it into your post. That is, unless you were deliberately leaving information out to try make your argument sound stronger. Too bad for you I guess.

FirstBlood.7359:

TheGuy.3568:

You tell me how moving rtl’s cooldown to 40 seconds makes sense. Tell me what justifies that since you say there are other elements at play here. Really if you want to discuss than discuss. You have number maths builds core mechanics. What justifies it?

The D/D elementalist excels in all aspects of pvp: great sustain in close combat, boon support for his team, strong utility such as knockdowns and great mobility with RTL. Currently, this build has no weakness. Thieves can’t stay in close combat for long, warriors can’t do anything at all against competent players, but elementalist can do everything. Now it’s time to tone down the d/d elementalist and bring him back to a normal level.

The nerf only applies to the non-target use of RTL, in other words: running away. Despite the 40s CD on RTL you still have two very useful auras, when it comes to escaping, permanent swiftness, vigor for well timed dodges and the benefits such as stability/invulnerability/blink from cantrips.

The times of jumping in a fight without further thought, rolling over the keyboard, RTL’ing out and healing up are over.

I think you are having a different argument than everyone else. We agree that D/D bunker is too powerful in PvP. Everyone else complains really because of 2 core things:
1.) We sustain too long
2.) Damage is still decent

1. is because of all the cleansing, mistform healing, and to a lesser extent protection uptime.
2. is 100% because of sigil of battle and bloodlust. Play a d/d bunker ele without sigil of battle and your damage is pathetic (which is fine with most people who want to survive). This is also being targeted for nerfs.

The reason the RtL nerf really hurts is because of WvW and PvE, where ele’s now can be chased down by every other class. Our damage is low, so even if you try to get max dps, we are in for a long fight. In WvW that means more people will show up. If we can’t run, trying to skirmish in small groups or roam solo is being completely killed.

In PvE this really hurts b/c getting around the map without RtL is so annoying and no fun. Plus, the fact that we are mobile fighters mean that our battles against mobs last a long time travel a good distance. This has the unfortunate side-effect of drawing aggro from lots of other mobs making the battle quickly unmanageable. RtL was a life-saver to get away and try again without spiraling into a 1v20 fight.

Ele’s are fine if they tone down the bunker aspect a bit, we just want to keep our ability to survive (run) rather than sustain until the battle tips against us (which it will). Our goal is to make playstyles other than bunker viable, but every nerf Anet makes (especially this one) makes bunker more and more necessary.

They may be happy now as focus might see use for its superior defense. The ele’s only role now is to stay in the same place and fight toe-to-toe in long (losing) battles (as reinforcements come or you make 1 mistake), and that playstyle bores me (and is not forgiving like 5s instagib or run). I guess I will try a different class that might be fun and mourn the loss of my favorite kind of fighting. If that doesn’t work, there’s always other games

FirstBlood.7359:

The D/D elementalist excels in all aspects of pvp: great sustain in close combat, boon support for his team, strong utility such as knockdowns and great mobility with RTL. Currently, this build has no weakness.

That’s the point being made. The changes Anet has to do should be orientated towards bringing the OP spec down.

The point being made here was by the players in SOTG, all high quality players, that pointed out that the changes to cantrips may not be enough to quell the Bunker Ele (the OP build) and Grouch noted how the changes to Mist and RtL would impact every /D Ele build, regardless of whether it’s a bunker spec or not. This sounds illogical because Anet has gone on record stating they want to make more builds viable in spite of toning down OP ones.

Following this premise, they should be taking steps to mitigate the power of the Bunker Ele, instead, they make a change that will most negatively impact other /D builds, which are few in number already since everyone loves the FOTM and hopping on the troll train.

How does making a change that weakens all Ele /D builds encourage people to use unpopular /D builds over the FOTM?

I don’t think the ‘math’ in the OP really represents anything meaningful. For the Warrior to achieve what is shown he is locked into two specific weapons (none of the skills of which are stunbreakers, btw), and you’re completely forgetting that Rush and Whirlwind Attack are both affected by things like Cripple and Chill, whereas RtL is not. The ranger example provided is awkward because they have to flip their camera, and even with the hotkey for it, sometimes it isn’t as responsive as it needs to be for purposes of this sort of speed movement. And while I won’t disagree that the Thief is pretty mobile, it’s supposed to be the most mobile, so that’s not a problem.

I think there were probably better solutions to nerfing RtL, such as making it factor in things like Chill and Cripple (like Warrior GS Rush), but what you also need to consider is that the Elementalist and Warrior are very different beasts altogether. One gets 10 skills across 2 weapon sets, and the other gets 20 skills across 4 attunements. I think ANet also clearly intends RtL to be more useful for engaging than escaping, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, and this change moves it more in that direction. We just need to adjust our own perceptions of what the Ele can and should achieve in response to this change, and I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as it sounds.

This is just too much.

Eles aren’t even the fastest class, TODAY. What’s this change about?

At the very least this should be spvp only. If it isn’t, this might actually be something that makes me quit. Eles have to take longer getting around in PVE now for no reason? WAY longer? I get to use my 40s RTL To get around vs all the 10-20 sec leap abilities (sometimes multiple) available to other professions?

I think its pretty obvious ANet has no idea what they are doing.

Let’s say the problem with the Ele is bunker-heal-escape. We can survive due to boons, heal up and cleanse conditions better than anyone, and can flee combat easily to reset. Of course our damage is pathetic, but even in full Fire/Air spec or perfect attunement dancing we still do less damage than almost any other profession.

But, ANet wants to lessen the effectiveness of bunkering. Well, on the Ele at least they’re destroying it. Putting in boon hate kills almost any Ele build, reducing SoR and cleanse traits is a nice double whammy, and limiting our only non-target-required weapon move skill with a double CD, reduced (fixed) range, and additional conditions that may or may not be satisfied.

Does anyone NOT think this is overkill? And to top it all off, our damage is still crap compared straight up to almost any other build. Why do you think Eles are constantly running Bloodlust, using sharpening stones and power/precision food, and building Might Stacks? Because we HAVE to just to compete at other professions’ baseline effectiveness.

And it gets worse. By nerfing mobility and heal abilities, and adding in a mechanic that adds damage when we try to defend (head explode) ANet basically forces any Ele player into one of only two options:

1. Staff nuker from zerg
2. Even more bunkering to compensate for our much lower survivability

Can anyone explain this to me? The logic behind making such ridiculous decisions? And if someone mentions sPvP their argument is automatically invalid since that’s such a small part of the game. Point camping is not a good yardstick for class balance, as that’s more about positioning and CC skills.

This is going a bit out of control here. We need to get back to the point. The problem isn’t the heal build. New builds will come out, the ele wont be lost, the community will find a way out of it – “how to handle all professions” build will be found again.

The real problem is the the RtL, no matter what new build is made nothing can repair the movement loss. Until now we could barely escape zergs, just like wars and thief’s can. But with this patch “barely” will become “impossible”. I wont even mention if you have to chase someone, especialy thief/war, but even now chasing thief/war is pretty much impossible so…

Imo the problem I saw with rtl was that it was always being used to reset the batle against slower classes when things started going south. An increase in cd means you wont be able to escape so easily now because itll still be on cd for the most part of a battle which ill say is good.

Though rtl needed nerf I do think there couldve been a better way around doing it.

why don’t you post this on spvp forum? share the knowledge please, everyone need to know that ele has the worst mobility in this game.

seriously, do it, let everyone see your analysis.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I don’t think the ‘math’ in the OP really represents anything meaningful. For the Warrior to achieve what is shown he is locked into two specific weapons (none of the skills of which are stunbreakers, btw),

I am going to pick this apart since each part has been answered already and I am not in the mood for a wall you wont read so we have to go over thing again. DD ele is locked into 2 specific weapons also. BTW sword is 1 handed weapon so you do get the option of Shield or warhorn. Also everyone save thief gets locked into sets for mobility so your point makes no sense what so ever sorry.

There are no stunbreakers in the weapon sets sets save for thief’s Shadow Return.

Rising Dusk.2408:

and you’re completely forgetting that Rush and Whirlwind Attack are both affected by things like Cripple and Chill, whereas RtL is not.

RtL also isn’t affected by movement enhancing skills like swiftness and movement signets. the others are, I did mention this in the OP.

Rising Dusk.2408:

The ranger example provided is awkward because they have to flip their camera, and even with the hotkey for it, sometimes it isn’t as responsive as it needs to be for purposes of this sort of speed movement.

Mind you I play all these classes in fact there the only classes I play at 80. While it may have seemed awkward to you it seemed natural to me. The is a difference of opinion. The most unnatural skill I found was whirl wind. It is all about perception.

Rising Dusk.2408:

And while I won’t disagree that the Thief is pretty mobile, it’s supposed to be the most mobile, so that’s not a problem.

2 things here. Thief is already the most mobile class. Once you account for shadow returns and the fact that while everyone is stuck in CD’s thief can regain the initiative several times over to run or chase. I used the weakest movement skill in my example but if you look through the post or play the class you realize there are better ones for less initiative management.

the second is that ele is already slower than thief. Its is number 4 not 1 rtl nerf is entirely unnecessary except for the bug fix. Thief increased mobility is also unnecessary but that’s a different topic. BTW I am not arguing with you on this point you agreed I am flushing out for anyone else reading.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I think there were probably better solutions to nerfing RtL, such as making it factor in things like Chill and Cripple (like Warrior GS Rush), but what you also need to consider is that the Elementalist and Warrior are very different beasts altogether. One gets 10 skills across 2 weapon sets, and the other gets 20 skills across 4 attunements.

Ok this cant be summed up well. These are the 2 classes I know the best. So the easiest way to explain this is my warrior using GS alone is much more effective in terms of DPS compared to Survivability than my ele is. With healing traits my ele can surpass my warrior in pure survivability but as far as effectiveness goes GS alone is better then the entire DD set due to DPS differences. those 20 skills don’t make you inherently better.

The first class to out run my DD ele in sprint was warrior. My own warrior is faster than the basic DD ele in WvW. I have shared my build and its not really up for argument it just is faster.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I think ANet also clearly intends RtL to be more useful for engaging than escaping, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, and this change moves it more in that direction. We just need to adjust our own perceptions of what the Ele can and should achieve in response to this change, and I don’t think it’s nearly as bad as it sounds.

3 things here also. You could argue that about all weapon set movement skills as they all have a DPS component. When they have a target they all track (some better than other).

The second thing how do you compensate for reduced mobility in a game where so many classes are mobile? There are 2 possible solution. You can bunker more to survive longer and hopefully escape or you can quit the set. Not hysterics or anything like that. Players for the most part despite the whining etc are very logical. If DD becomes inferior in mobility they will adjust for it by bunkering even more or they will leave the set. It is not anymore complex than that.

Until someone tries it its not about thinking. Any player who wants to say that it won’t be that bad take my challenge and prove it.

Kript.3291:

why don’t you post this on spvp forum? share the knowledge please, everyone need to know that ele has the worst mobility in this game.

seriously, do it, let everyone see your analysis.

I never said that they did so what is your point? You do realize I said number 4 as in 4 of 8 as in there are 8 classes. You can count right? Also you could take the math post it and see what others have to say but roaming inst really an issue in S/Tpvp it is bunkering. If you check my post I felt ele should be nerfed in Spvp for cantrips also. So………….

I know you are trying to make a point but it won’t go well. Do it yourself if you feel a need to. Do yourself a favor and don’t bother.

Meh at running away randomly like vapouring into tower after jumping 1vXX (which is sign of a ‘bad’ playstyle)…. But what about our chasing potential? In order to keep 20sec you have to hit a mob, meaning you enter combat and slowed down anyway. Now its going to be a lot harder losing the biggest gap closer on extended chases unless they mess up negating impact of waiting the extra time for RTL.

At least now if I see someone in the distance and I’m solo can probably just emote and hope they don’t run away or just ignore them and save myself a pointless chase. I would’ve just adjusted CD to flat 20/25sec and reduce range to 1000/1100. Just lame how classes are balanced mostly on sPvP/tPvP which is completely different style to PvE and W3. Silver lining: fast tracking plan for staff ele zerg buster since confusion got destroyed with mesmer and get awesome before any staff buffs happen… So got a few months to perfect!

@kript: your name seems familiar. Do you happen to be part of the T1 NA matchup? If so… Classy

it does make since. Especially if you are comparing it to bull charge. Bull charge “warrior skill” is the closest thing you can compare it too actually. Skill is 900 range I believe so um thats way less than 1500 lol… and also the skills cool down is 40 seconds. not 20.

Seriously I dont know what you people are thinking but how would you feel if warriors could knock you down every 20 seconds from 1500 range and hit you with hundred blades or something in a fight. Thats the comparison were trying to get at.

RTL is still better than Bullcharge if you land it. 300 range longer and CD is twice as fast and its not affected by chill and cripple like bull charge. I honestly dont under stand what you are complaining about. I dont want to say learn to play, But to me it seems like the worst players were using this skill as a crutch to compensate for being bad. Or really good players were just totally abusing it. because you know you can do whatever you want and get away with it, while most the other classes wouldn’t dare to do that or seriously think twice about it before they did it.

Now as far as you adding up all the mobility skills and coming to a conclusion that “insert class” can move this far in X amount of time. Its not really about that. For warriors at least the movement skills are gap closers not escape skills, warriors are not really played like that. A warrior would do bulls charge similar to RTL in order to close a gap knock down to set up Hundred blades for instance because the skill roots them while channeling that skill. And bullscharge has a 40 sec CD regardless if it lands or not. If it doesn’t land guess what that warrior cant do damage. And they get kited and killed. Bulls charge is not typically used as an escape skill becasue it has a 40 sec CD. Usually the warrior only gets to use it once in a fight and thats if it isnt dodged, or misses.

Now as far as the other warrior gap closers, rush has no knock down effect and unlike RTL chill and cripple shut the warrior down. So If they have those effects on them then rush becomes totally useless. Same goes for whilwind attack. Whilewind attack btw is more a a evade skill. It is used as a 3rd dodge skill more or less and can do damage while its being channeled its not really an escape skill.

Pretty much the biggest complaint about warriors. Is they really dont have the escape abilities your comparing them too. Having movement skills is one thing, Getting shut down by conditions the cause those movement skills not to work, and getting shut down by conditions and warriors skills rooting them in place means warriors often go into a battle and the cant dis-engage.

So its really not a good comparison after all.

Warlord.9074:

it does make since. Especially if you are comparing it to bull charge. Bull charge “warrior skill” is the closest thing you can compare it too actually. Skill is 900 range I believe so um thats way less than 1500 lol… and also the skills cool down is 40 seconds. not 20.

Seriously I dont know what you people are thinking but how would you feel if warriors could knock you down every 20 seconds from 1500 range and hit you with hundred blades or something in a fight. Thats the comparison were trying to get at.

RTL is still better than Bullcharge if you land it. 300 range longer and CD is twice as fast and its not affected by chill and cripple like bull charge. I honestly dont under stand what you are complaining about. I dont want to say learn to play, But to me it seems like the worst players were using this skill as a crutch to compensate for being bad. Or really good players were just totally abusing it. because you know you can do whatever you want and get away with it, while most the other classes wouldn’t dare to do that or seriously think twice about it before they did it.

What your saying is very flawed. You should read the OP but you seem not to understand what each skill does.

Ride the lightning is most closely compared to Rush. Neither skill has a knock down effect.

Bull’s Charge is most closely related to Lightning Flash in terms of range and cd.

Where you figured Bull’s Charge equals RtL I do not know as one is a utility skill the other a weapon set skill. All this info is in the OP please next time take the time to read it as explaining these skills, their cds, and effects over and over is frustrating and annoying as the info is there already.

I would suggest in the future before responding to a topic to take the time to read the OP and the current discussion no matter the subject matter.

Edit:

I am not going to go over the rest of your post which you edited in. Some helpful tips from one warrior to another is that is you are smart enough to use leg specialist you shouldn’t have much issue landing most of your burst. You don’t need to land all of 100b just most if it. You also bait if you need to land Bull’s Charge.

I personally use Bull’s Charge as an escape. It is not that hard to do so /shrug. Most of your info is bad so I can’t really discuss any of this with you.

Also despite how you feel about my examples I play each class and know the skills well it was obvious from your post you do not play DD ele and have not familiarized your self with the skills. Please read up on the skills and their effects if you plan to be part of the discussion.

And to think all this time, I thought my Necro had good mobility.

I think I might be able to help you understand what the problem is.

It’s not how the elementalist’s mobility compares to anyone else; it’s about the fact that elementalists can disengage safely and reliably at a time of their choosing, and are too difficult to kill.

Now either everyone elses experience of Elementalists stems from the fact that Elementalists are just plain better players by their very nature, or that there is a balance issue which needs to be addressed.

You’re wasting your time comparing Elementalist and Warrior abilities, the same way I’d be if I compared Necro mobility to Thief mobility. ANet have a design in mind, they have made their decisions and are enacting them in a few days.

As they say in Eve online:

“Adapt or die”

Of course ANet’s nerf doesn’t make sense. ANet only makes dollars. lots of dollars.

SupahSpankeh.8452:

I think I might be able to help you understand what the problem is.

It’s not how the elementalist’s mobility compares to anyone else; it’s about the fact that elementalists can disengage safely and reliably at a time of their choosing, and are too difficult to kill.

As they say in Eve online:

“Adapt or die”

Thief is the only class that can do that. No one else can.

We aren’t playing Eve. And as i have said before either the set will die or go more bunker.

SupahSpankeh.8452:

You’re wasting your time comparing Elementalist and Warrior abilities, the same way I’d be if I compared Necro mobility to Thief mobility. ANet have a design in mind, they have made their decisions and are enacting them in a few days.

As part of the inherent class design of Necromancer the class has access to the largest health pool and the game. Traited or not the highest base health is added as a class mechanics that effectively give you a second health bar. No matter the weapon set or the build this is always part of the class. Pleas account for these sort of thing before posting about other classes.

SupahSpankeh.8452:

I think I might be able to help you understand what the problem is.

It’s not how the elementalist’s mobility compares to anyone else; it’s about the fact that elementalists can disengage safely and reliably at a time of their choosing, and are too difficult to kill.

Now either everyone elses experience of Elementalists stems from the fact that Elementalists are just plain better players by their very nature, or that there is a balance issue which needs to be addressed.

You’re wasting your time comparing Elementalist and Warrior abilities, the same way I’d be if I compared Necro mobility to Thief mobility. ANet have a design in mind, they have made their decisions and are enacting them in a few days.

As they say in Eve online:

“Adapt or die”

I chase Ele’s down all the time in WvW on my thief. Not hard to catch up with them. Thief is the only class that can disengage safely and reliably not the Ele….

MIrra.3604:

SupahSpankeh.8452:

I think I might be able to help you understand what the problem is.

It’s not how the elementalist’s mobility compares to anyone else; it’s about the fact that elementalists can disengage safely and reliably at a time of their choosing, and are too difficult to kill.

Now either everyone elses experience of Elementalists stems from the fact that Elementalists are just plain better players by their very nature, or that there is a balance issue which needs to be addressed.

You’re wasting your time comparing Elementalist and Warrior abilities, the same way I’d be if I compared Necro mobility to Thief mobility. ANet have a design in mind, they have made their decisions and are enacting them in a few days.

As they say in Eve online:

“Adapt or die”

I chase Ele’s down all the time in WvW on my thief. Not hard to catch up with them. Thief is the only class that can disengage safely and reliably not the Ele….

This might be a bit off topic but are you D/P also?

TheGuy.3568:

Warlord.9074:

it does make since. Especially if you are comparing it to bull charge. Bull charge “warrior skill” is the closest thing you can compare it too actually. Skill is 900 range I believe so um thats way less than 1500 lol… and also the skills cool down is 40 seconds. not 20.

Seriously I dont know what you people are thinking but how would you feel if warriors could knock you down every 20 seconds from 1500 range and hit you with hundred blades or something in a fight. Thats the comparison were trying to get at.

RTL is still better than Bullcharge if you land it. 300 range longer and CD is twice as fast and its not affected by chill and cripple like bull charge. I honestly dont under stand what you are complaining about. I dont want to say learn to play, But to me it seems like the worst players were using this skill as a crutch to compensate for being bad. Or really good players were just totally abusing it. because you know you can do whatever you want and get away with it, while most the other classes wouldn’t dare to do that or seriously think twice about it before they did it.

What your saying is very flawed. You should read the OP but you seem not to understand what each skill does.

Ride the lightning is most closely compared to Rush. Neither skill has a knock down effect.

Bull’s Charge is most closely related to Lightning Flash in terms of range and cd.

Where you figured Bull’s Charge equals RtL I do not know as one is a utility skill the other a weapon set skill. All this info is in the OP please next time take the time to read it as explaining these skills, their cds, and effects over and over is frustrating and annoying as the info is there already.

I would suggest in the future before responding to a topic to take the time to read the OP and the current discussion no matter the subject matter.

Edit:

I am not going to go over the rest of your post which you edited in. Some helpful tips from one warrior to another is that is you are smart enough to use leg specialist you shouldn’t have much issue landing most of your burst. You don’t need to land all of 100b just most if it. You also bait if you need to land Bull’s Charge.

I personally use Bull’s Charge as an escape. It is not that hard to do so /shrug. Most of your info is bad so I can’t really discuss any of this with you.

Also despite how you feel about my examples I play each class and know the skills well it was obvious from your post you do not play DD ele and have not familiarized your self with the skills. Please read up on the skills and their effects if you plan to be part of the discussion.

I think your just misunderstanding what I was trying to say, and I wasn’t clear what I meant. Rush alone doesn’t really set a warrior up to to damage. Its just a gap closer. Where as bulls charge sets a warrior up to do damage. A warrior could do rush + bullscharge or rush + traited blade trail to immobilize. But geneally not rush alone. Rush is eaisly evaded on top of that. Warrior melee weapon skils are like 130 range. where as elementalist dagger skills are over twice that range 300. So in a DD setup u RTL to get in 300 range basically and at that point you can deal damage and run around and stuff. Its not like that on a warrior. Then you can simply escape if you wanted to.

Its not weather or not the skills work the same but its in practice what the skill is often used for.