(Please note, I wanted to make this comparison thread sooner, but I was afraid of getting either Eles, Mesmer, or any other class nerfed. Its a kitten shame that people are scared to make informative threads for fear of nerfing, Anet.)
Hey guys,
Guardians and Elementalists have been lauded as the best support classes in the game, and I was curious as to what makes them so special? This isn’t really a challenge as much as a comparison of what support Elementalists bring to a group and what makes them so valuable compared to other classes’ supportive abilities.
In case you don’t know, support Mesmers can bring:
- Up to 25x Might / Fury (AltruismRunes, Signet) / Perma Swiftness / Perma Regen / Perma Vigor / Aegis / Protection (a bit unreliably) / Perma Retaliation / 2.9k AoE burst heals every 3 seconds.
In addition to the usual Portals, Reflects, Rezz, blah blah…
Would anyone knowledgeable on support Elementalists be able to enlighten me a bit? I’d like to work on making a comparison of all the different classes’ support abilities.
Hmm well you are throwing quite some claims for mesmer buffing. You can prolly get close to that but by totally gimping your control and damage rotations. And if you are doing the healing, you cannot do any of the things mentioned before. And there actually lies the secret for the success. You can do it all with ele, without really gimping yourself.
The support elementalist provides the buffs and healing constantly through normal rotation, without interuption to normal DPSing and no hassle.
Take the oh so popular (especially few months back) 0/10/0/30/30 D&D for example. Let’s add 15% + 15% boon duration runes aswell as you are providing unreasonable optimal situation numbers.
Because how the D&D plays in pvp you are visiting every attunument every 15 seconds easily.
From Elemental Attunument trait alone that gives 8/15 ~= 53% regen uptime on 10 targets and 53% uptime on swiftness and protection on 5 targets. And that little bit of might from fire swap.
Then we add in Evasive Arcana, Soothing Mist and Healing Ripple on the healing part, lets assume full healing gear – like you did. Giving 2x 2.9k AoE heal every Water swap and permanent halfregen for another 2k inside the cycle.
Then let’s look at the condition removal. With Cleansing Wave and EA we aoe remove 2 condition on every cycle, and if adding (optional DD, mandatory staff) Cleansing Waters that adds a 10 target remove per cycle from Elemental Attunument alone, and many many times more for a staff ele.
Cleansing Wave skill for another 2 conditions removed and 2.9k Area heal.
But lets take Powerful Aura here for DD and bring in Zephyr’s Boon and our aura skills. Outside of the aura support the Swiftness goes up to near permanent and Fury should be about 50% for the 5 guys? With the 60% boon duration I assumed here.
Then lastly adding in commonly used Arcane Wave, earth dodge, Earthquake into a Fire Field (+ Churning Earth) for additional burst 12 might stacks, and what ever that averages out to (anyway something that every DD ele is fully accustomed in doing, always mechanical). Or make that a water field for heals.
TLDR: Point is the buffs, heals and condi removals just keep on coming. And doing damage never stops. While compared to a mesmer having to totally kitten his damage and control output in order to achieve the great buffing. This type of ele is a powerhouse.
(Please note, I wanted to make this comparison thread sooner, but I was afraid of getting either Eles, Mesmer, or any other class nerfed. Its a kitten shame that people are scared to make informative threads for fear of nerfing, Anet.)
- Up to 25x Might / Fury (AltruismRunes, Signet) / Perma Swiftness / Perma Regen / Perma Vigor / Aegis / Protection (a bit unreliably) / Perma Retaliation / 2.9k AoE burst heals every 3 seconds.
I don’t know a lot about mesmers, but how are they able to get those buffs? Can they get those buffs and boons alone or do they need fields and finishers?
I’ll jump straight to Staff Elementalist since D/D was already discussed. A staff elementalist is vital in supporting a zerg in WvW because they can get unlimited might, healing and frost armor as long as they have people who use blast finishers. Hammer guardians are rampant in WvW and each blast finisher on water fields heal for 1.3k~2k depending on the Healing Stat of the user. Add the fact that they have a lot of Soft and Hard CCs too (Knockdown, Chill, Cripple, Stun)
If mesmers are able to get all those boons alone, then they’re superior in supporting a small group(small group roaming in WvW or PvE dungeons) while staff elementalists have the upperhand in supporting larger groups and zergs because they can get as much heals/might/frost armor as they want as long as there are people blasting their fields.
TL;DR – If mesmers are able to get all those boons without the need of other people blasting fields:
Mesmer>Staff Ele in small groups
Staff Ele> Mesmer in large groups
It’s because dedicated-traited Staff Mesmer is generally one of the least played Mesmer archetypes in the game.
I’m quite aware of the build you’re talking about. I played it for a little bit back in the day.
It’s a shame, because I really do feel it’s an archetype that isn’t explored nearly enough. It looks insane in WvW small to mid skirmishes. A Mesmer dedicated to spitting out boons, little heals, and Chaos Storm sounds like a winner in my small roaming zerg.
The thing about Elementalists and Guardians, I suppose, is that their popular specs:
-Ele D/X Bunker (Mostly PvP, some PvE)
-Ele Scepter Fresh Air Burst (PvP)
-Ele Glass Lightning Hammer (PvE)
-Guardian AH Bunker (PvP and PvE)
-Guardian Cleric-Mid Bunker (PvP)
-Guardian Greatsword/Sword DPS (Mostly PvE, some PvP)
…all have to do with buffing allies with boons and heals.
By contrast, consider the popular Mesmer specs:
-Mesmer Shatter (Mostly PvP, some PvE)
-Mesmer Phantasms (PvP and PvE)
-Mesmer Reflects (PvE)
-Mesmer Condition (PvP)
Do not have to do with constantly providing your team with boons, heals, and buffs. Instead, you use your (incredibly overpowered) utility and weapon abilities, such as Focus Pull, Portal, Time Warp, Signet of Inspiration, Feedback, and Null Field while providing burst DPS.
Do not have to do with constantly providing your team with boons, heals, and buffs. Instead, you use your (incredibly overpowered) utility and weapon
abilities, such as Focus Pull, Portal, Time Warp, Signet of Inspiration, Feedback, and Null Field while providing burst DPS.
ele sucks….
But your statement about mesmer being OP tells me you don t know much about mesmers.
Focus PULL nerfed into oblivion
Feedback…..OK skill long CD even traited compared to guardian.
Null Field….. nerfed into oblivion
Signet of inspiration…double the buffs for Others if used for buffs provided by mesmer is not that good.
Portal ._. situational…
Burst DPS…….depends….its reliable so its good in pve-www maybe but for PVE the burst is risible and has huge risk.
You may check again warrior, thieves and guardians because a mesmer burst is lower than their sustained damage.
Still gold compared to ELE but mostly because ele was overnerfed for ages.
Do not have to do with constantly providing your team with boons, heals, and buffs. Instead, you use your (incredibly overpowered) utility and weapon
abilities, such as Focus Pull, Portal, Time Warp, Signet of Inspiration, Feedback, and Null Field while providing burst DPS.
ele sucks….
But your statement about mesmer being OP tells me you don t know much about mesmers.Focus PULL nerfed into oblivion
Feedback…..OK skill long CD even traited compared to guardian.
Null Field….. nerfed into oblivion
Signet of inspiration…double the buffs for Others if used for buffs provided by mesmer is not that good.
Portal ._. situational…
Burst DPS…….depends….its reliable so its good in pve-www maybe but for PVE the burst is risible and has huge risk.
You may check again warrior, thieves and guardians because a mesmer burst is lower than their sustained damage.Still gold compared to ELE but mostly because ele was overnerfed for ages.
Focus Pull alone is incredibly strong in speed runs and is the main reason they’re brought in dungeon farm groups. I don’t think Mesmer itself is overpowered, but their unique utilities alone make up for their miserly damage. They simply have some of the best utilities out there.
Focus pull with 1 second delay is awful.
Mesmer use focus due to iWarden or swiftness not for the pull that is useful only in cof1.
its unreliable and risks to mess up with other mobs…..if you want a reliable pull, binding blade from guardians or scorpion wyre from thief are the best.
For pushing you have mesmer GS 5….
Focus pull is almost only for cof1 opening.
The point is the same as warrior….the miserable damage is not so miserable when you can stack 3 phantasms for 12.000 dmg every 10 seconds or so paired with mesmer damage itself.
Blurred for 7K alone on 10 seconds is way more than an ele could dream of.
Mesmer utilities just push OP profession over the top.
Remove warriors from the equation and suddenly mesmer becomes just a random profession.
Ele is still bad even if you remove guardians instead.
(unless all you care about is reward…then a gimmick and totally unfun build can just be effective).
@LordByron: Please don’t post any further in this thread if you’re just gonna spew jaded (and inaccurate) opinion. Whats the point of coming into the Ele forums and starting your post with “Ele sucks”?
@Sabull: The major damage sacrifice is actually a pretty common misconception. Everything I posted about Mesmer support is accurate and doesn’t require much change from the traditional setups. Besides for increased healing, you don’t need to switch gear as much as swap around some traits (about 20 in inspiration) and grab your choice of utilities. To get all of that requires 20 Inspiration, 20 Chaos, Signet of Inspiration, and a few choice runes. A lot of the info for building a support Mes is in my sig.
But most of you all have a lot of valid points I’m going to post a comparison between Mesmer & Ele shortly so please correct any inaccuracies.
@LordByron: Please don’t post any further in this thread if you’re just gonna spew jaded (and inaccurate) opinion. Whats the point of coming into the Ele forums and starting your post with “Ele sucks”?
because (lemme use your same rudeness) i m not a fan boy like you, i mained an ele and i had it nerfed to the ground due to PvP.
Now its totally UNFUN (<=== read carefully the word) and i have just 1 profession to play despite all the time (1000 hours only in ele) i invested in that profession.
And i played ele since release doing lot of stuff and discovering lot of stuff.
So i think i actually know the profession quite well..
Despite lot of biased enthusiasts have to continually throw Attacks to people rather than discussing whenever they can t find arguments.
And wonder wich is my other profession?
Being coherent i say the same things (check yourself) in threads with people complaining that mesmer is worse than ele….
Notto mention that i m only saying stuff you find in mesmer forum.
I have both and i d like to enjoy again my ele like i did once… so i could choose wich profession i feel to use.
So if anyone should really stop posting are people that can only discuss posters and not ele state.
(edited by LordByron.8369)
Take your own advice, Byron. Someone asking you not to start your post with "eles suck’ is not a fanboy. If you want changes for Ele, then be constructive, not destructive.
Fun is also SUBJECTIVE…not OBJECTIVE. I’ve had a lot of fun with my elementalist since getting him to 80…and plan on making him my main. And that’s over a Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer, Ranger, and Necromancer.
But yes…on to the REAL subject at hand.
The two builds I play S/D (0/30/0/10/30) and D/D (0/10/0/30/30) have a large toolbelt of support while having enough damage to help really push those DPS race bosses. I am working on a full Celestial set right now and can pretty much do enough healing with my skills to not even need to use my heal skill most of the time. And all that healing is AE.
While Mesmer does have a lot more tools for specific situations, most of its utilities are built around being synergized for 1 situation. Yes, there are some utilities that see more use than others…but it’s because that situation is very prevalent. (Reflecting projectiles, removing conditions, time warp, etc.)
Overall, I would say comparing a support Mesmer to an Elementalist is a very difficult task. Ele’s support can fit into any situation with no to little change in traits, weapons and utilities, while Mesmer has to tailor things to specific situations. But, that’s the point of those classes. Mesmer is supposed to control the ebb and flow of battle with their magic…and part of that is knowing the battle ahead and planning accordingly. Elementalist…like an Engineer…is more bring a bit of everything and make it up as they go along.
@LordByron: Please don’t post any further in this thread if you’re just gonna spew jaded (and inaccurate) opinion. Whats the point of coming into the Ele forums and starting your post with “Ele sucks”?
because (lemme use your same rudeness) i m not a fan boy like you, i mained an ele and i had it nerfed to the ground due to PvP.
Now its totally UNFUN (<=== read carefully the word) and i have just 1 profession to play despite all the time (1000 hours only in ele) i invested in that profession.
And i played ele since release doing lot of stuff and discovering lot of stuff.
So i think i actually know the profession quite well..
Despite lot of biased enthusiasts have to continually throw Attacks to people rather than discussing whenever they can t find arguments.And wonder wich is my other profession?
Being coherent i say the same things (check yourself) in threads with people complaining that mesmer is worse than ele….Notto mention that i m only saying stuff you find in mesmer forum.
I have both and i d like to enjoy again my ele like i did once… so i could choose wich profession i feel to use.
So if anyone should really stop posting are people that can only discuss posters and not ele state.
Honestly.. Its not worth it to respond to most of this. If I’m a “fanboy” for asking you to keep your jaded opinions out of a thread about facts then so be it. (Everything you said about Mesmer in your first post was opinion, and definitely inaccurate. Yes, angry exaggerated opinions do appear in the Mesmer forum just like any other forum) I look at the positive AND negative aspects of a class, just the point of this build. Apparently fanboy = objective.
Either way, from what I’m getting Ele has.
But my question is, though this all could affect allies, how much of the Elementalist’s rotation actually has allies in mind? Whats the range of the AoE effects and how often do you intentionally buff allies as opposed to them just happening to be near you?
I appreciate all the feedback, and I think what really separates Mesmer support from Elementalist is the intention.
From what I see, it looks like the main traits you’d take for your standard D/D – S/D build just so happen to also have AoE-related abilities (such as Evasive Arcana & Elemental Attunement)
A D/D or S/D Ele’s rotation is primarily meant for damage, happens to have a lot of control, and the boons are moreso for himself? (As in, you’re not positioning yourself near allies, you’re positioning where you’ll be safest and most effective and allies being near happens to be a lucky convenince for them?)
A support Mesmer is building with a team in mind. Illusion of Life, Medic’s Feedback (Reflect bubble on rezz), AoE Mantra heals, Signet of Inspiration. We have to decide to take traits and utilities that end up making our builds more distinct (Mass Clone Shatters vs Maintaining Illusion Pets vs Condition/Glamours vs Boon/Heal Support )
Vigor – Elementalist (traited) / Mesmer (traited)
Might – Elementalist (w/combo) / Mesmer (w/ weapon skills)
Protection – Elementalist (easily traited) / Mesmer (difficult to trait & proc)
Swiftness – Elementalist (easily traited) / Mesmer (Requires Focus)
Regeneration – Elementalist (easily traited) / Mesmer (Difficult to proc for allies)
Aegis – Mesmer (Staff)
Retaliation – Mesmer (Staff & combo field)
Stability – Mesmer (Pfft. Barely)
Reflects – Mesmer
Rezz skill – Mesmer
Combo Fields – Elementalist
Portal – Mesmer
Burst Heals – Ele .. slightly better? (Gotta check on this. )
What it looks like to me is that Elementalists come with more natural support without having to trait specifically for it, while Mesmer have to be more specialized. Both make very good support classes though, I guess it depends on playstyle.
(edited by Chaos Archangel.5071)
Umm focus pull is actually pretty amazing in PvE with a Mesmer. You can place the curtain properly in front of the mobs so that it pulls them to the line instead of past the line in different directions. This pulls the mobs together so that everyone can cleave….and the Mesmer can do this without aggroing the mobs.
Honestly they offer two different utilities to a party. It’s like saying who’s more important to a business, an HR professional or the accountant.
[quote=2519404;Chaos Archangel.5071:]
Vigor – Elementalist (traited) / Mesmer (traited)
Might – Elementalist (w/combo) / Mesmer (w/ weapon skills)
Protection – Elementalist (easily traited) / Mesmer (difficult to trait & proc)
Swiftness – Elementalist (easily traited) / Mesmer (Requires Focus)
Regeneration – Elementalist (easily traited) / Mesmer (Difficult to proc for allies)
Aegis – Mesmer (Staff)
Retaliation – Mesmer (Staff & combo field)
Stability – Mesmer (Pfft. Barely)Reflects – Mesmer
Rezz skill – Mesmer
Combo Fields – Elementalist
Portal – Mesmer
Burst Heals – Ele .. slightly better? (Gotta check on this. )
Im just going to add that mesmer regeneration isnt that hard to proc on allies (not comparing it to other professions, just looking at the regeneration by itself).
With a bunch of melee people in teh party a warden can easily keep perma regen if you dont shatter it, you can also throw disenchanters and defenders in (the disenchanter still spawns in melee range).
Ranged allies are a bit harder though, but usually with several phantasms i can get 30s regen pretyt quickly, so signet of inspiration covers that ^^.
Keep in mind that mesmer burst heals (mantras) are very easily spammable, while its true that most of the times spamming it infintely is a very bad idea, there are situations where its usefull!
For example that cold snowy fractal at the end, when the boss teleports up and starts throwing ice, you cna simply run to allies that are hurt and heal them pretty quickly.
What this pretyt mcuh means is, every time the boss teleports up the party fully heals for when he goes down again ^^.
I know that eles ahve a lot of burst heals, but are there enough to be spammed while the boss from the example teleports up? And can it be used while youre on the move? (for example you need water fields and allies have to stand near it, but theyre always moving)
Its just a situational thing that rarely is actually usefull, but thought id mention anyway ^__^.
@LordByron: Please don’t post any further in this thread if you’re just gonna spew jaded (and inaccurate) opinion. Whats the point of coming into the Ele forums and starting your post with “Ele sucks”?
because (lemme use your same rudeness) i m not a fan boy like you, i mained an ele and i had it nerfed to the ground due to PvP.
Now its totally UNFUN (<=== read carefully the word) and i have just 1 profession to play despite all the time (1000 hours only in ele) i invested in that profession.
And i played ele since release doing lot of stuff and discovering lot of stuff.
So i think i actually know the profession quite well..
Despite lot of biased enthusiasts have to continually throw Attacks to people rather than discussing whenever they can t find arguments.And wonder wich is my other profession?
Being coherent i say the same things (check yourself) in threads with people complaining that mesmer is worse than ele….Notto mention that i m only saying stuff you find in mesmer forum.
I have both and i d like to enjoy again my ele like i did once… so i could choose wich profession i feel to use.
So if anyone should really stop posting are people that can only discuss posters and not ele state.
Honestly.. Its not worth it to respond to most of this. If I’m a “fanboy” for asking you to keep your jaded opinions out of a thread about facts then so be it. (Everything you said about Mesmer in your first post was opinion, and definitely inaccurate. Yes, angry exaggerated opinions do appear in the Mesmer forum just like any other forum) I look at the positive AND negative aspects of a class, just the point of this build. Apparently fanboy = objective.
Either way, from what I’m getting Ele has.
- Condition Cleanses
- AoE Vigor, Protection, Might, Fury (traited)
- Exclusive Combo Fields.
- Some of the best burst heals.
But my question is, though this all could affect allies, how much of the Elementalist’s rotation actually has allies in mind? Whats the range of the AoE effects and how often do you intentionally buff allies as opposed to them just happening to be near you?
I appreciate all the feedback, and I think what really separates Mesmer support from Elementalist is the intention.
From what I see, it looks like the main traits you’d take for your standard D/D – S/D build just so happen to also have AoE-related abilities (such as Evasive Arcana & Elemental Attunement)
A D/D or S/D Ele’s rotation is primarily meant for damage, happens to have a lot of control, and the boons are moreso for himself? (As in, you’re not positioning yourself near allies, you’re positioning where you’ll be safest and most effective and allies being near happens to be a lucky convenince for them?)A support Mesmer is building with a team in mind. Illusion of Life, Medic’s Feedback (Reflect bubble on rezz), AoE Mantra heals, Signet of Inspiration. We have to decide to take traits and utilities that end up making our builds more distinct (Mass Clone Shatters vs Maintaining Illusion Pets vs Condition/Glamours vs Boon/Heal Support )
Vigor – Elementalist (traited) / Mesmer (traited)
Might – Elementalist (w/combo) / Mesmer (w/ weapon skills)
Protection – Elementalist (easily traited) / Mesmer (difficult to trait & proc)
Swiftness – Elementalist (easily traited) / Mesmer (Requires Focus)
Regeneration – Elementalist (easily traited) / Mesmer (Difficult to proc for allies)
Aegis – Mesmer (Staff)
Retaliation – Mesmer (Staff & combo field)
Stability – Mesmer (Pfft. Barely)Reflects – Mesmer
Rezz skill – Mesmer
Combo Fields – Elementalist
Portal – Mesmer
Burst Heals – Ele .. slightly better? (Gotta check on this. )What it looks like to me is that Elementalists come with more natural support without having to trait specifically for it, while Mesmer have to be more specialized. Both make very good support classes though, I guess it depends on playstyle.
Just come talk to me in-game in the mists. I can show you how naturally Ele supports its team just through its normal rotations.
There actually is no good reason to play a DD ele over a mesmer.
Much appreciated guys. This was very informative, and I’ll definitely hit you up Neko. (althought I was talking about all forms of play. Eles definitely seem trump Mesmer in PvP when it comes to support.. for now! )
Either way, from what I’m getting Ele has.
- Condition Cleanses
- AoE Vigor, Protection, Might, Fury (traited)
- Exclusive Combo Fields.
- Some of the best burst heals.
But my question is, though this all could affect allies, how much of the Elementalist’s rotation actually has allies in mind? Whats the range of the AoE effects and how often do you intentionally buff allies as opposed to them just happening to be near you?
Eles have no aoe vigor; that point goes to mesmers. An important advantage you didn’t note is speed. Switching attunements provides an ele’s strongest support effects, and attunement swapping is instant.
Your contrast between ele and mesmer support is more or less true. Most of the ele support traits have pretty small ranges (about or exactly 240), so it can be hit or miss even when you’re intentionally trying to affect allies. Also, the limited range means aoe attacks aimed at you or whoever you’re trying to support will likely hit both of you. I don’t think most non-staff eles will go out of their way to support allies on purpose; it’s just not something I see many eles doing.
However, it isn’t hard to support allies in the heat of a fight, and I do position myself to help teammates when they need it. There have been times when I’ve spent the majority of fights protecting a necro from thieves. How often I do things like that depends entirely on what is going on and the professions my guildies bring. I don’t feel like that sort of thing is needed in most fights, so I don’t support to that extent much. I’m talking about this from a wvw perspective, and I usually get more heat than most of my teammates.
Also, eles have a unique form of support and group utility, fiery greatsword. In WvW, this is the only good way to give allies burst mobility. You can only give it to one ally, but it will make him the fastest thing alive. Portal has to be set beforehand, so it’s less of a “we have to suddenly and unexpectedly run away now” skill.
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