Guild Wars 2

Let’s compare some of the elementalist skills and traits with other classes with similiar skills/traits. This was taken from Terra Dactyl.2047

Teleports:
Mesmer Blink: 30s cd, breaks stun. Can be traited for 1200 range.
Elementalist Lightning flash: 40s cd, doesn’t break stun. Can’t be traited for 1200 range.
Thief Let’s not even go there.

Invurnable:
Elementalist- Mist form: 3s invuln, 75s CD. Can’t use other skills during vapor form, can’t cap points. Can’t trait for automatic mist form at certain hp threshold.
Engineer- Elixer S: Same as above, 60s CD. Can trait to get a second elixer S automatically.
Warrior- Endure pain: 4s invuln, can use other skills and cap points. 60s CD. Can trait to get a second endure pain automatically.

Gap closers
Elementalist- Ride the lightning: 20s CD / 40s if you miss, lag, get blocked or your opponent dodges
Warrior- Rush: 20s cd. Period.
Ranger- Swoop: 12s cd. Period.

Traits
Gain vigor when delivering a critical hit.

Mesmer – Critical Infusion: 5 Points needed.
Guardian – Vigorous Precision: 5 points needed.
Elementalist – Renewing Stamina: Moved to Master tier (20 points needed) = Mind blown…

Eviscera.9703:

Warrior- Endure pain: 4s invuln, can use other skills and cap points. 60s CD. Can trait to get a second endure pain automatically.

That is no invulnerability. Conditions still work.

Comparisons like that are useless because the usefulness of those skills goes up and down depending on their interaction with other skills, base hp, traits etc.

Eviscera.9703:

Let’s compare some of the elementalist skills and traits with other classes with similiar skills/traits. This was taken from Terra Dactyl.2047

Teleports:
Mesmer Blink: 30s cd, breaks stun. Can be traited for 1200 range.
Elementalist Lightning flash: 40s cd, doesn’t break stun. Can’t be traited for 1200 range.
Thief Let’s not even go there.

Invurnable:
Elementalist- Mist form: 3s invuln, 75s CD. Can’t use other skills during vapor form, can’t cap points. Can’t trait for automatic mist form at certain hp threshold.
Engineer- Elixer S: Same as above, 60s CD. Can trait to get a second elixer S automatically.
Warrior- Endure pain: 4s invuln, can use other skills and cap points. 60s CD. Can trait to get a second endure pain automatically.

Gap closers
Elementalist- Ride the lightning: 20s CD / 40s if you miss, lag, get blocked or your opponent dodges
Warrior- Rush: 20s cd. Period.
Ranger- Swoop: 12s cd. Period.

Traits
Gain vigor when delivering a critical hit.

Mesmer – Critical Infusion: 5 Points needed.
Guardian – Vigorous Precision: 5 points needed.
Elementalist – Renewing Stamina: Moved to Master tier (20 points needed) = Mind blown…

You seem to not grasp any idea of what an elementalist is.
Jack Of All Trades, Master Of None
If you don’t like it, go play another profession. I’m really tired of people like you on the forums.

fadeaway.2807:

Comparisons like that are useless because the usefulness of those skills goes up and down depending on their interaction with other skills, base hp, traits etc.

pretty much this.

OP lists traits or skills in a vacuum and thinks it is intelligent.

The Game Slayer.7632:

You seem to not grasp any idea of what an elementalist is.
Jack Of All Trades, Master Of None
If you don’t like it, go play another profession. I’m really tired of people like you on the forums.

Don’t be intentionally foolish. Every profession is a “Jack of All Trades” because every profession is designed to bring damage, support and control in every game aspect, that’s how GW2 is designed from the ground up.

Calling the Ele the “Jack of All Trades” is a cop out by ANet and players who don’t want the Ele to compete and refers specifically to the Ele possessing 20 weapon skills. Which of course ignores being range locked, and the majority of utility skills and trait selections being wildly under par compared to other professions, as well as the Ele having no inherent survivability beyond healing, which has been nerfed across the board (except Warrior apparently) and specifically nerfed hardcore on the Ele itself.

According to ANet’s lore and own statements, the Ele was supposed to be the king of damage dealing at all ranges, as a balance to the extremely low survivability. But, just like in GW1, ANet has no idea how to make this happen without ticking off all the players who don’t want an even fight, so we’re eventually going to have the GW2 equivalent of the ER Infuser build.

What’s hilarious is that you say you’re tired of people on the forum pointing out the obvious, when its the obvious that ANet and players like you KEEP IGNORING. A squishy profession that has no compensation for squishiness is not a meta character, and scarcely competes. Which eventually leads to such characters falling completely out of favor, which if you participated in high end PvP you’d know that Eles are hardly ever brought along.

oZii.2864:

fadeaway.2807:

Comparisons like that are useless because the usefulness of those skills goes up and down depending on their interaction with other skills, base hp, traits etc.

pretty much this.

OP lists traits or skills in a vacuum and thinks it is intelligent.

They’re not useless specifically because each professions traits and skills work exactly the same way. A vigor on crit trait works the same whether its on a Guard, Ele or Mesmer. A skill that works as a gap closer/opener with a listed distance is going to propel any class that has one the same distance. In point of fact skills and traits as compared by the OP is a very accurate representation of the lopsided class balance, and is obvious to anyone who spends even a few seconds thinking about it.

Saying “skills in a vacuum” does not make your commentary intelligent if you have no idea what it means.

Kaleban.9834:

The Game Slayer.7632:

You seem to not grasp any idea of what an elementalist is.
Jack Of All Trades, Master Of None
If you don’t like it, go play another profession. I’m really tired of people like you on the forums.

Every profession is a “Jack of All Trades” because every profession is designed to bring damage, support and control in every game aspect,

You are so naive. You’re entire argument is completely illegitimate due to this single statement. You confuse the saying “Jack of all Trades” with bringing things to the table; ie damage, support, control. Every class can heal each other, but if you had a brain cell you would think to yourself for a second and say “I wonder who brings more healing, a heal-way guard or a thief.”
Every profession CAN bring things to the table, but other professions are really bad at doing it. You really made yourself look like a fool by saying “every profession is a jack of all trades profession”.
The elementalist can do everything, and is halfway decent at it. We have decent control, decent healing, decent support and boons, decent mobility, decent damage ETC. But there is nothing that we are amazing at, like a heal-way guard, or glass cannon warrior.

Let’s compare another class to get it through your skull.
A thief is bad at healing, decent at damage, amazing in mobility, amazing in stealth, and bad with support and boons.

Shall I continue? Or can I at least safely assume you have played this game for more than a week?

Lightning Flash, unlike blink, can be used offensively.

It’s a good damage skill. If it crits, it deals about as much damage as an arcane utility skill. All the while, it has excellent synergy with other burst skills.

Lightning Flash + Earthquake/ Churning Earth/ Fire Grab/ Burning Speed/ etc can be pretty devastating in PvP, not only because you’re reliably hitting with those skills thanks to Lightning Flash, but also because LF is adding some neat extra damage above all of it.

Kaleban.9834:

oZii.2864:

fadeaway.2807:

Comparisons like that are useless because the usefulness of those skills goes up and down depending on their interaction with other skills, base hp, traits etc.

pretty much this.

OP lists traits or skills in a vacuum and thinks it is intelligent.

They’re not useless specifically because each professions traits and skills work exactly the same way. A vigor on crit trait works the same whether its on a Guard, Ele or Mesmer. A skill that works as a gap closer/opener with a listed distance is going to propel any class that has one the same distance. In point of fact skills and traits as compared by the OP is a very accurate representation of the lopsided class balance, and is obvious to anyone who spends even a few seconds thinking about it.

Saying “skills in a vacuum” does not make your commentary intelligent if you have no idea what it means.

It doesn’t work the same way it gives you vigor but you have to take in account the rest of the way the class is built.

You can’t just go vigor on crit vs vigor on crit without looking at the class or even it’s intent. There is a reason mesmers don’t have a movement speed sigil, there is a reason mesmers are weak to conditions, there are reasons why necromancers don’t have awesome escape mechanics like the other condition pressure class engineer, there is a reason necromancer can’t get healing to their real hp pool while in death shroud. There is a reason why Warrior’s didn’t get reliable access to protection though it was asked for repeatedly. It has been stated many many times by the devs on the forums.

Jon said that renewing stamina will probably stay at adept in arcana anyway. I definitely wouldn’t want it to replace Arcane fury as a 5 point trait to “Match Guardian and Mesmer” like the OP states. Then a support player would almost feel obligated to take zephyr’s boon or throw precision into their build to get the synergy with renewing stamina.

I ran without zeyphyr’s boon for a while with boon duration runes and just playing normal I could keep fury up most times to proc renewing stamina. The problem was that I had a harder time keeping swiftness up but that was my trade off. Arcane Fury is a pretty good 5 point trait not every build takes Zephyr’s boon, Arcane fury makes that possible.

fadeaway.2807:

Comparisons like that are useless because the usefulness of those skills goes up and down depending on their interaction with other skills, base hp, traits etc.

People who love their other classes, and never want to die to an Ele again always come to our threads to flame us with that exact argument. The fact is that behind all of this is math, so, yes, you CAN compare any skill to any other skill. When you talk about so many factors that it cannot be calculated, what you are talking about is called a math function. Each function acts as something called a variable. We even have math that allows us to graph the results. That is called Calculus. What is amazing about computer games is that billions of calculations go on per second to calculate these formulas in the millions.

ImProVocateur.5189:

People who love their other classes, and never want to die to an Ele again always come to our threads to flame us with that exact argument. The fact is that behind all of this is math, so, yes, you CAN compare any skill to any other skill. When you talk about so many factors that it cannot be calculated, what you are talking about is called a math function. Each function acts as something called a variable. We even have math that allows us to graph the results. That is called Calculus. What is amazing about computer games is that billions of calculations go on per second to calculate these formulas in the millions.

Then you have this https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Current-state-of-the-meta/page/9#post2474136

JonathanSharp.7094:

Hope this makes sense.

Oh, also, the reason we can’t give Necro’s too much disengage has to do with the point of “purity of purpose”.

In this game, we want to allow classes the ability to deal with all situations but in different ways. But, if we give all classes all TOOLS (which is a different thing), then players get confused as to which classes fill which roles, and in what way they fill those roles

Example: In PvP, the Necro and Engi both vie for the position of condition pressure. The engineer has more physical alternatives, the Necro has more boon/condition manipulation, the Engi has more escapability, and the Necro is a little squishier. If we gave the Necro too much mobility or escapability, then all of a sudden their “tools” start to line up exactly. If this is the case, one of them will simply be better than the other, as far as efficacy goes, and thus, one will push the other out of the meta for that “role” on the team. This class would then be the “apex” predator for that role. So, in order to prevent this, we try to make it so that the classes don’t have all their tools overlap perfectly. This means you have to say (following our example), “Well, if we take a Necro, we get more condies, but a squishy body that can’t disengage…..but if we take Engi, we lose some DPS and control (depending on utils), but we get someone who can stand up to a spike better”.

Make sense? If we just gave the escape to Necro’s, then all of a sudden, the Necro is just the clear choice. Not all decisions come down to a clean break like this, but this is the type of thing we’re trying to do when we “deny” some classes certain tools.

This is the same reason that Red doesn’t get interrupts in Magic, the reason that Zergs, normally, have much more mobility than Protoss (since Toss are usually stronger unit-by-unit), and why Karthus has no escapes. By denying tools, you create choices for the players. We sometimes do a poor job of this, sorry. But overall, we try to make it so that all classes have choices, and teams have choices in which classes they bring.

-Chap from China

Nothing to do with Math and everything to do with the “purity of purpose”. That Quote throws the math out of the window. Even if other people don’t understand or never seen that quote doesn’t matter but that is why certain traits are in certain places on other classes even though they function similar to other classes. That is why he said it was useless because Anet doesn’t compare the trait but the classes based on the roles they fill.

Quickening Thirst

“
Increases movement speed for each dagger that you wield.

Wielding two daggers: 25%
Wielding one dagger: 15%

Windborne Dagger

Move faster for each dagger that you wield.

Main-hand dagger speed increase: 15%
Off-hand dagger speed increase: 10%

Same trait one works OOC one only works in. One is Master one is moving to adept but based off what Jon said it still will get the OOC mobility.

Looking at the quote it makes sense they don’t move it to adept because it doesn’t fit with how they want the necromancer to play.

ImProVocateur.5189:

The fact is that behind all of this is math, so, yes, you CAN compare any skill to any other skill. When you talk about so many factors that it cannot be calculated, what you are talking about is called a math function. Each function acts as something called a variable. We even have math that allows us to graph the results. That is called Calculus. What is amazing about computer games is that billions of calculations go on per second to calculate these formulas in the millions.

What they mean to say is that you cannot create a model to accurately predict how powerful a skill or trait will really be, because there are too many variables, one of them being the human factor.

You can use math to make predictions and assumptions about skill balance though, and if properly used it’s useful. However, people quickly forget things in comparisons like these. In the vigor on crit example, the elementalist has Evasive Arcana where the Mesmer gets a clone. That affects the outcome of ‘how powerful is vigor on crit’.

Also, if the mesmer had say another trait that gave them +50% endurance regeneration, suddenly the vigor on crit would only be half as powerful for them. Even though it’s the exact same trait.

So no, math isn’t the answer to everything. It’s just a (very useful) tool.

The ‘facts’? Direct cross profession ability comparisons – these are pretty darn useless when not used in context of an entire functioning profession. They are supposed to be very differently balanced abilities.

If you made an argument about why Elementalist needs a better teleport/invuln/gap closer due to their actual performance in-game I’m sure Jon Peters could make a lot better use of that.

Eviscera.9703:

Invurnable:
Elementalist- Mist form: 3s invuln, 75s CD. Can’t use other skills during vapor form, can’t cap points. Can’t trait for automatic mist form at certain hp threshold.
Engineer- Elixer S: Same as above, 60s CD. Can trait to get a second elixer S automatically.
Warrior- Endure pain: 4s invuln, can use other skills and cap points. 60s CD. Can trait to get a second endure pain automatically.

Don’t forget about Focus Earth #5, that has a 30-40second cooldown, or the 20s reflect #4

The Game Slayer.7632:

Eviscera.9703:

.. OP’s post …

You seem to not grasp any idea of what an elementalist is.
Jack Of All Trades, Master Of None
If you don’t like it, go play another profession. I’m really tired of people like you on the forums.

I enjoy helping people learn to think critically, so that arguments can become constructive debates. Not everyone can be helped, but I like to think of everyone as having the potential to be a great thinker.

The phrase you bolded is a social agenda term. The proponent principle is communicated by another popular phrase – practice makes perfect. Any logistician will cringe at these because a logistician is keen about a Logic subtopic known as false logic. The primary examples of false logic are visible throughout our society – stereotyping, generalizing, profiling, industrial education, etc. The common mistake of these is an application of reasoning that has limited scope or unproven truth as if it were a universal truth. Often a logical argument will infer one or more facts that are not true as a result.

A Jack of all trades confers that every subject this phrase is applied to can exhibit nothing unlike Jack; that is to say, what happens to Jack happens to everyone no matter what. Master of none confers a few ideas: 1. That a master role is the goal, 2. That having no mastery is despicable, 3. That there is either mastery or no mastery, and 4. That this declares the boundaries of results for everyone. Linking the two phrases makes one phrase that promotes the idea that life is a pursuit of profession with two outcomes: mastery or failure.

By now you should have a good idea what societies have historically fostered this idea, making it a principle of their social policy, even. If your mind is drifting toward Asia, then you are doing well. Let me ask you something. How long do you think it would take to become a master at balancing a spoon on your nose? Years? Decades? It is a goofy question, but a critical thinker will realize that a valid argument was raised by having asked such a ridiculous question. Point 1: a profession is a collection of tasks. How many tasks makes a profession? I know, the question is rhetorical, but a critical thinker will know that another valid argument was raised. Point 2: a unique profession requires a unique experience. Is it possible to master life skills and master a job to pay for life? Ah, the wheels are starting to turn, no doubt. Point 3: everyone is necessarily a learner of multiple masteries, and must master more than one to be proficient enough to survive. Final question: Is a national economic policy based on the principle of one lifelong skill mastered by each person competitive enough in our global economy, such that fluctuations in demand will not put lives at risk? Ah, yes. I will leave you to think about that one.

Cheers! Oh, and, be good.

ImProVocateur.5189:

I enjoy helping people learn to think critically, so that arguments can become constructive debates. Not everyone can be helped, but I like to think of everyone as having the potential to be a great thinker.

Is it possible to make this sound even more condescending, when what follows is basically an opinion?

ThiBash.5634,
You and TheGameSlayer.7632 have been oozing negativity all week. What happened to you? I write an upbeat and nerdishly funny post in response to a mean poster just to read your reply calling me condescending to the meanie. If you were seeking attention, then here you go. I notice you.

ImProVocateur.5189:

ThiBash.5634,
You and TheGameSlayer.7632 have been oozing negativity all week. What happened to you? I write an upbeat and nerdishly funny post in response to a mean poster just to read your reply calling me condescending to the meanie. If you were seeking attention, then here you go. I notice you.

Im only being negative to people like OP. I never called you condescending! That was thibash, lol I enjoyed your post. Me and thibash are two completely different people
I’m really excited for dec 10th and if you read through my history, you’ll find this to be true in my postings.

The Game Slayer.7632:

You are so naive. You’re entire argument is completely illegitimate due to this single statement.

“Your.”

You confuse the saying “Jack of all Trades” with bringing things to the table; ie damage, support, control. Every class can heal each other, but if you had a brain cell you would think to yourself for a second and say “I wonder who brings more healing, a heal-way guard or a thief.”

Jack of All Trades in this context is exactly what it says on the tin, damage, support and control. Once you get into the specific balancing act that differentiates professions, then yes you move away from the trifecta of gameplay. But at its core, this is how GW2 is designed. And no need to be such a jerk.

Every profession CAN bring things to the table, but other professions are really bad at doing it. You really made yourself look like a fool by saying “every profession is a jack of all trades profession”.

This is part of the balancing act referenced above, but in basic design every class can do everything, i.e. Jack of all Trades. Making some classes better or worse makes it so there isn’t just one single profession, which is necessary for an MMO.

The elementalist can do everything, and is halfway decent at it. We have decent control, decent healing, decent support and boons, decent mobility, decent damage ETC. But there is nothing that we are amazing at, like a heal-way guard, or glass cannon warrior.

I’d argue that saying an Ele is “decent” at everything is a gross overstatement, but apparently you’re blind to the facts of current game balance.

Let’s compare another class to get it through your skull.
A thief is bad at healing, decent at damage, amazing in mobility, amazing in stealth, and bad with support and boons.

Shall I continue? Or can I at least safely assume you have played this game for more than a week?

And yet, a Thief can use their Stealth skills in a Support role to get a party through a dungeon, or use Venom Share for extra party DPS and control, or stealth rezzing and stomping to avoid damage, or blind spam…

Things like healing, mobility and boons are aspects of support, so while the Thief may be not as good with boons, it offers different types of Support which are as or more valuable. If the Thief was straight up as good with boons as say a Guardian, then the Thief would either be grossly OP in a support role.

I could continue, but then I might sink to your level of insulting and misinformed rhetoric.

Okay buddy you are completely right. Everything you say is right. You know what is good and bad for this game. you know it all. Me, many elementalists, and the a-net balancing team are clearly wrong.

you just keep on at it, in your own, little world

The Game Slayer.7632:

Okay buddy you are completely right. Everything you say is right. You know what is good and bad for this game. you know it all. Me, many elementalists, and the a-net balancing team are clearly wrong.

you just keep on at it, in your own, little world

Indeed, everyone knows that ele is decent as a Jack of All Trades. That’s why:

• every single serious team in pvp has an elementalist
• every decent dungeon team uses eles because they are versatile, not because they are might stacking bots spamming 1
• every wvw zerg uses eles for their versatality, not because they are water field spammers

haviz.1340:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Okay buddy you are completely right. Everything you say is right. You know what is good and bad for this game. you know it all. Me, many elementalists, and the a-net balancing team are clearly wrong.

you just keep on at it, in your own, little world

Indeed, everyone knows that ele is decent as a Jack of All Trades. That’s why:

• every single serious team in pvp has an elementalist
• every decent dungeon team uses eles because they are versatile, not because they are might stacking bots spamming 1
• every wvw zerg uses eles for their versatality, not because they are water field spammers

QFT

a wise man said:

you can’t cherry pick skills and compare them between professions in an effort to “balance.” With your logic there should be only one profession in the entire game.

Eviscera.9703:

Let’s compare some of the elementalist skills and traits with other classes with similiar skills/traits. This was taken from Terra Dactyl.2047

Invurnable:
Elementalist- Mist form: 3s invuln, 75s CD. Can’t use other skills during vapor form, can’t cap points. Can’t trait for automatic mist form at certain hp threshold.
Engineer- Elixer S: Same as above, 60s CD. Can trait to get a second elixer S automatically.
Warrior- Endure pain: 4s invuln, can use other skills and cap points. 60s CD. Can trait to get a second endure pain automatically.

you missed the most overpowered of them all:

Mesmer : Distortion (1s for each clone/phantasm shattered) 60 cd
Blurred Frenzy (1h sword skill 2, lasts 0.5 secs and has 12 sec cd)

guess what? Mesmer will be boosted at what they already excel at

Mesmer will be the new Warrior (I honestly stopped leveling my Warrior, already have a full exo Mesmer that will have everything pressing a couple of buttons: condition removal, mobility, healing, invisibility, insane high damage)

Grevender.9235:

Eviscera.9703:

Let’s compare some of the elementalist skills and traits with other classes with similiar skills/traits. This was taken from Terra Dactyl.2047

Invurnable:
Elementalist- Mist form: 3s invuln, 75s CD. Can’t use other skills during vapor form, can’t cap points. Can’t trait for automatic mist form at certain hp threshold.
Engineer- Elixer S: Same as above, 60s CD. Can trait to get a second elixer S automatically.
Warrior- Endure pain: 4s invuln, can use other skills and cap points. 60s CD. Can trait to get a second endure pain automatically.

you missed the most overpowered of them all:

Mesmer : Distortion (1s for each clone/phantasm shattered) 60 cd
Blurred Frenzy (1h sword skill 2, lasts 0.5 secs and has 12 sec cd)

guess what? Mesmer will be boosted at what they already excel at

Mesmer will be the new Warrior (I honestly stopped leveling my Warrior, already have a full exo Mesmer that will have everything pressing a couple of buttons: condition removal, mobility, healing, invisibility, insane high damage)

blurred frenzy isn’t a invulnerability. Sry to burst your bubble.
Now go play your full exo mesmer until you wake up.

blutstein.2468:

blurred frenzy isn’t a invulnerability. Sry to burst your bubble.

you are half wrong, the remaining half need a deeper understanding of skills/utilities. Blurred Frenzy is like Endure Pain for Warrior (you don’t take direct damage) but with 1/4 its cooldown.
You still are vulnerable to conditions, but that’s true for Mist Form too :]

Now go play your full exo mesmer until you wake up.

awww why so serious? enjoy the free respawns after being stomped by imba Mesmers :]

If your read into the Dec 10th patch changes on Ele forum, Jon states that Renewing Stamina can be moved back it Adept and the Arcane Shield proc at 25% life will be moved to Master as a Compromise. Which is a great compromise.

JonPeters.5630:

Summation of high risk concerns for elementalist.
snip
….
Arcana
I see the logic in not wanting the two changes in this line to counter each other. Moving good adept traits to master level is contrary to reducing the need to spec into this line. That being said, Elemental Attunement is just a beast of a trait and could honestly be compared with most grandmaster traits. I think a good compromise would be to place Renewing Stamina back in the adept tier, placing is where the other professions get this type of trait, and instead move Final Shielding to the master tier where it could live alongside Arcane Retribution as two good choices in arcane builds that take Arcane Mastery in the adept tier. That could leave some interesting builds such as: 0/30/30/0/10 for fresh air, diamond skin, and renewing stamina. It also still leaves builds that put only 10 points in Arcana a chance to gain Protection by going 30 air for Tempest Defense, and 10 Earth for Elemental Shielding and still have 30 points leftover.

I still believe there is work to be done at the grandmaster tier in Fire at the very minimum and that Air and Water are the only truly good grandmaster choice right now. There are also still a handful of just terrible traits that will still get looked at, but we felt like we were already bordering on changing too much.

Thanks,

Jon

P.S. bug fix for Lingering Elements is coming on Nov. 26th as well.

haviz.1340:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Okay buddy you are completely right. Everything you say is right. You know what is good and bad for this game. you know it all. Me, many elementalists, and the a-net balancing team are clearly wrong.

you just keep on at it, in your own, little world

Indeed, everyone knows that ele is decent as a Jack of All Trades. That’s why:

• every single serious team in pvp has an elementalist
• every decent dungeon team uses eles because they are versatile, not because they are might stacking bots spamming 1
• every wvw zerg uses eles for their versatality, not because they are water field spammers

Actually every decent dungeon group wants eles because Ice Bow and FGS do so much darned damage =D

Otaur.9268:

If your read into the Dec 10th patch changes on Ele forum, Jon states that Renewing Stamina can be moved back it Adept and the Arcane Shield proc at 25% life will be moved to Master as a Compromise. Which is a great compromise.

JonPeters.5630:

Summation of high risk concerns for elementalist.
snip
….
Arcana
I see the logic in not wanting the two changes in this line to counter each other. Moving good adept traits to master level is contrary to reducing the need to spec into this line. That being said, Elemental Attunement is just a beast of a trait and could honestly be compared with most grandmaster traits. I think a good compromise would be to place Renewing Stamina back in the adept tier, placing is where the other professions get this type of trait, and instead move Final Shielding to the master tier where it could live alongside Arcane Retribution as two good choices in arcane builds that take Arcane Mastery in the adept tier. That could leave some interesting builds such as: 0/30/30/0/10 for fresh air, diamond skin, and renewing stamina. It also still leaves builds that put only 10 points in Arcana a chance to gain Protection by going 30 air for Tempest Defense, and 10 Earth for Elemental Shielding and still have 30 points leftover.

I still believe there is work to be done at the grandmaster tier in Fire at the very minimum and that Air and Water are the only truly good grandmaster choice right now. There are also still a handful of just terrible traits that will still get looked at, but we felt like we were already bordering on changing too much.

Thanks,

Jon

P.S. bug fix for Lingering Elements is coming on Nov. 26th as well.

Yeah, that looks like a step on the right path, really.
Also I really look forward the Lingering Elements fix, we seriously deserve that after more than a year

blutstein.2468:

a wise man said:

you can’t cherry pick skills and compare them between professions in an effort to “balance.” With your logic there should be only one profession in the entire game.

Eh. You made a safe pitch, but consider the words of another wise person, who said, “Do not be duped by your own wiles,” which is often mistranslated as, “Be not wise in your own thoughts,” but is more commonly spoken as, “Don’t be a sucker for your own bs.”

Indeed, there is more than one conclusion to “cherry picking” player class abilities with an intent to balance. Let us not “think in a box,” but let us be wise in the alternatives. World of Warcraft Online half-way sucked because the interesting differences between player classes shrunk to cater to whiny kids who could not handle all the variables. DAoC was incredible because it maintained better player class diversity, but also suffered from kowtowing to players that wanted more predictable PvP results. All the interesting new things DAoC brought over the years was nerfed quickly due to control-freak players. The alternative outcomes to selectively comparing class abilities could lead to greater diversification or it could lead to mirroring. There is a wide range of outcomes. The result always rests on the design vision of the devs and the product strategy.

ImProVocateur.5189:

ThiBash.5634,
You and TheGameSlayer.7632 have been oozing negativity all week. What happened to you? I write an upbeat and nerdishly funny post in response to a mean poster just to read your reply calling me condescending to the meanie. If you were seeking attention, then here you go. I notice you.

My apologies, I didn’t get the jest in your post, probably because I didn’t read the whole thread. I’m sorry.

Eviscera.9703:

Warrior- Endure pain: 4s invuln, can use other skills and cap points. 60s CD. Can trait to get a second endure pain automatically.

Not an invulnerability. And Defy Pain takes 30 points into a traitline that is also full of other useful traits.

Elementalist- Ride the lightning: 20s CD / 40s if you miss, lag, get blocked or your opponent dodges
Warrior- Rush: 20s cd. Period.

Ride the Lightning ignores chill and Cripple, Rush does not. Also, Rush is very buggy with actually hitting anything.

Traits
Gain vigor when delivering a critical hit.

Mesmer – Critical Infusion: 5 Points needed.
Guardian – Vigorous Precision: 5 points needed.
Elementalist – Renewing Stamina: Moved to Master tier (20 points needed) = Mind blown…

Yeah and the other five professions have nothing like that. At least you have the option for permanent Vigor at all. If a Warrior wants permanent Vigor, they’re going to need 20 points into Tactics, an additional 40% boon duration and a Warhorn offhand. Put that trait of yours for 20 points for Warrior into just about any traitline and people would sing praise.
The December 10th patch is also going to reduce the Vigor access of a Thief to half of what it is right now.

Necromancer
Teleports – None
Invulnerable – None
Gap Closers – None
Vigor – None

Olba.5376:

Not an invulnerability. And Defy Pain takes 30 points into a traitline that is also full of other useful traits.

Unfortunately for Eles, most of our traitlines don’t have any useful traits. Must be nice.

Ride the Lightning ignores chill and Cripple, Rush does not. Also, Rush is very buggy with actually hitting anything.

Rush doesn’t get put on a double CD if it misses. Must be nice.

Yeah and the other five professions have nothing like that. At least you have the option for permanent Vigor at all. If a Warrior wants permanent Vigor, they’re going to need 20 points into Tactics, an additional 40% boon duration and a Warhorn offhand. Put that trait of yours for 20 points for Warrior into just about any traitline and people would sing praise.
The December 10th patch is also going to reduce the Vigor access of a Thief to half of what it is right now.

Did it ever occur to you that the reason the other professions don’t have as much access to Vigor is because their very survival doesn’t depend on precise dodging? A Warrior doesn’t need perma-vigor because they, again, have the largest health pool, heaviest armor, and against all logic, better healing than the Ele now. Not to mention quick weapon swapping which allows them to engage in melee or range at will, meaning they, unlike a D/D Ele for example don’t absolutely need to be always dodging.

I swear, its like some people just have a thing about nerfing Eles, especially people defending the unanimously agreed upon OP Warrior. Is it the SFX of our skills that you’re jealous of or something?

The Game Slayer.7632:

You seem to not grasp any idea of what an elementalist is.
Jack Of All Trades, Master Of None
If you don’t like it, go play another profession. I’m really tired of people like you on the forums.

You seem to not grasp that this is your own opinion given on what the class is now … no where does it say that in the class description. I am really tired of people pushing their own opinion as some god-given fact down peoples throats and doing it such a matter-of-fact fashion. People like him? No, sir … its people like you that are the issue.

Here … let me try and educate you:

Elementalists are multi-faceted spellcasters that channel elemental forces, making fire, air, earth, and water do their bidding. What they lack in physical toughness, they make up in versatility and the ability to inflict massive damage in a single attack.

So the class is supposed to be Diverse … but hit like a truck. Does anyone actually feel that we actually do that? They waged an entire war on soft healers and outside of staff killed our ‘diversity’. As for our damage … we hit no harder than players in plate bunker builds most times. We are always on the defensive … running away and healing ourselves rather than actually doing nearly the same damage that other classes can do.

nekretaal.6485:

Necromancer
Teleports – None
Invulnerable – None
Gap Closers – None
Vigor – None

Necromancer

Teleports – 3
Gap Closers – 2
Vigor – 1

Perhaps you should do a bit of research (or you know, play the profession) before making such uninformed statements.

nekretaal.6485:

Necromancer
Teleports – None
Invulnerable – None
Gap Closers – None
Vigor – None

Teleport – Spectral Armor and Dark Path
Invulnerability – Death Shroud (does the job longer and most of the time better than mist form, I play both).
Gap Closers – Spectral Grasp and Dark Path

Taldren.7523:

The Game Slayer.7632:

You seem to not grasp any idea of what an elementalist is.
Jack Of All Trades, Master Of None
If you don’t like it, go play another profession. I’m really tired of people like you on the forums.

You seem to not grasp that this is your own opinion given on what the class is now … no where does it say that in the class description. I am really tired of people pushing their own opinion as some god-given fact down peoples throats and doing it such a matter-of-fact fashion. People like him? No, sir … its people like you that are the issue.

OOOOOHHHHHHH LOL… so I’m supposed to refer to a description that hasn’t been updated in a year and a half.

So those devs in live streams that i watch all the time were lying when they said they wanted ele to be ‘jack of all trades’ ? The same ones that didnt update it since they publicly stated how they feel about eles? Lol you really are stuck in beta. Wake up

The Game Slayer.7632:

Wake up

Most people who buy this game aren’t poring through reddit and livestreams for SOTG announcements.

They expect a profession to play out as its described by the developer, not in ongoing devchats that contradict both the original vision of the game and what actually gets patched.

Perhaps you should tone down the confrontational nature of your posts a bit and realize that your opinion doesn’t matter more than anyone else’s, which is why forums are a place for discussion, not a place where you get to tell everyone else how or what to think.

The Game Slayer.7632:

OOOOOHHHHHHH LOL… so I’m supposed to refer to a description that hasn’t been updated in a year and a half.

I’ll take an official description no matter how old over your half baked opinion any day of the week.

I have no problem with the Elementalist being decent at everything. That concept has been part of the appeal of the class since beta (IMO).

The problem enters in when you realize that an Elementalist is not inherently decent at everything. With the exception of CC, any aspect of the class needs the associated traits to become decent.

So, the reality is that the Elementalist is not decent at everything. It is mediocre at everything, and it has the potential to become decent at a limited number of attributes its player decides to trait for.

The point that those of us who post criticism on the Elementalist forums are trying to get across is the following:

TL;DR: Elementalist needs to be brought up to the point where it lives up to its Jack-of-all-trades title and actually IS inherently decent at everything, and maybe slightly better than decent at one thing in particular that the player has decided to trait for.

No one is asking for a King-of-all-trades.

Olba.5376:

Yeah and the other five professions have nothing like that. At least you have the option for permanent Vigor at all. If a Warrior wants permanent Vigor, they’re going to need 20 points into Tactics, an additional 40% boon duration and a Warhorn offhand. Put that trait of yours for 20 points for Warrior into just about any traitline and people would sing praise.
The December 10th patch is also going to reduce the Vigor access of a Thief to half of what it is right now.

This is actually funny you brought warrior as an counter example. Every decent pve warrior build has 4.5 dodges every 20s, elementalist with perma vigor has 4. Warrior can also spend adrenaline to get another dodge and let’s not mention 8k more hp, more passive damage reduction and more blocks. They don’t need vigor at all.

haviz.1340:

Olba.5376:

Yeah and the other five professions have nothing like that. At least you have the option for permanent Vigor at all. If a Warrior wants permanent Vigor, they’re going to need 20 points into Tactics, an additional 40% boon duration and a Warhorn offhand. Put that trait of yours for 20 points for Warrior into just about any traitline and people would sing praise.
The December 10th patch is also going to reduce the Vigor access of a Thief to half of what it is right now.

This is actually funny you brought warrior as an counter example. Every decent pve warrior build has 4.5 dodges every 20s, elementalist with perma vigor has 4. Warrior can also spend adrenaline to get another dodge and let’s not mention 8k more hp, more passive damage reduction and more blocks. They don’t need vigor at all.

They also provide more support and require much less attention to play correctly.

Taldren.7523:

So the class is supposed to be Diverse … but hit like a truck. Does anyone actually feel that we actually do that?

They do, but only if the enemy doesn’t move. Dragon’s Tooth, Phoenix, Churning Earth, Fire Grab, etc are some of the hardest-hitting abilities in the game. Hell even staff with Lava Font + Meteor Shower can do an insane level of damage.

The only problem is that landing any the above skills require the enemy to either be AFK or completely locked-down with CC’s. Whatever few CC’s Ele’s have are separated by attunement cooldowns along with long cooldowns of their own, not to mention it’s quite easy to miss with them if you have the slightest amount of lag or the enemy is moving too fast.

Even while leveling-up my Ele I noticed something very strange….tons of abilities that require the target to stand still, but no go-to abilities to actually hold that target in place.

For giggles, lets see what Engineers can do with just Rifle alone:
> Rifle1: Hard-hitting guided autoattack (1000 range)
> Rifle2: 2 second Immobilize (10sec CD, 1000 range)
> Rifle3: AoE cone blast + bleed (0sec CD, 400 range)
> Rifle4: Massive knockback + immob/cripple/chill cleanse (10sec CD, 400 range)
> Rifle5: Big-damage leap AoE (20sec CD, 700 range)
…and Firearms traits for 20% cooldown reduction, 20% range increase and 10% damage increase for all the above.

Look at that versatility and kiting ability all coming from 1 weapon, along with big damage, control and mobility.

When I started playing Engineer I felt that just the Rifle was more effective at kiting+killing than the entire Elementalist class. That feeling has slowly gone away as I learned how to play Ele better, but the fact remains that you have to do a ridiculous amount of WORK just to accomplish very simple tasks all the while being super-squishy and having zero room for error. How absurd.

Here goes the never ending cycle of skill and trait comparisons. Ele has to do Y but necromancer doesn’t get A. Wait Necromancer doesn’t get A but it gets B the same as engineer gets B. Though Ele does have Z but Mesmer has R times 2. Guardian’s should pop up next.

Waiting for the post on how elementalist should be able to control their elementals like ranger pets, with a mesmer stating the same thing for clones. Then we should get elementals on dodge trait and replace Fire Elemental with hounds of Balthazar.

oZii.2864:

Here goes the never ending cycle of skill and trait comparisons. Ele has to do Y but necromancer doesn’t get A. Wait Necromancer doesn’t get A but it gets B the same as engineer gets B. Though Ele does have Z but Mesmer has R times 2. Guardian’s should pop up next.

It’s not about comparing. It’s about just how clunky and difficult to use Ele skills are in general, that a single weapon from another class with 5 abilities can accomplish what takes an Ele 15-20 abilities.

Kaleban.9834:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Wake up

Perhaps you should tone down the confrontational nature of your posts a bit

No.

Taldren.7523:

The Game Slayer.7632:

OOOOOHHHHHHH LOL… so I’m supposed to refer to a description that hasn’t been updated in a year and a half.

I’ll take an official description no matter how old over your half baked opinion any day of the week.

What you seem to be calling my half baked opinion is also a-nets half baked opinion. Lol.. You’re really trying to come to the forums and tell the dev’s and other players how it is?

This thread is ridiculous. I’m outtie.

Do not feed troll. Move along.

nekretaal.6485:

Necromancer
Teleports – None
Invulnerable – None
Gap Closers – None
Vigor – None

Necros also have double our health pool and can kill someone with conditions in less than 10 seconds while they build life force to absorb even more damage.