Guild Wars 2

So I have been looking at all the classes and all of them (with the exception of Necro) have an abundant access of either:
-block
-stealth
-evade
-invulnerability

And by abundant I mean easy to repeat, or long duration etc.

Focus has one such skill and we have also Mist Form (though we CANNOT attack during mist form) and that’s pretty much it. We also have one condition immunity trait which only seems useful for a bunker/tanky Eles with abundant healing and/or HP.

I am just trying to bring this into discussion due to the below points:
- other classes can heal just as well if not better and sometimes passively
- we are one of the classes with lowest HP together with Thief and Guardian (both of which are in a very good spot and are well balanced)
- depending on the weapon, we have some of the slowest and most choreographed attacks in the game which makes it easy for opponents to dodge almost anything we do
- we are a boon dependent class for our defense, but currently a lot of classes can mitigate this easily (PvP)
- we do not have an abundance of controlling conditions and CC to keep opponents at bay like other classes can (I am gonna throw our pets here too)

Feel free to flame me too, I am completely open to discussion and I might just suck completely, tho I have mained Ele since beta and currently.

Challenge accepted :

Staff :
Air skill #2 : ae blind
earth skill # 3 : projectile reflexion

Dagger :
Fire skill #3 : evade
Air skill #3 : free stun

Scepter :
Air skill #3 : blind

Focus :
Air skill #4 : destroy projectils
Earth skill #4 : reflect projectils
Earth skill #5 : invulnerability

Utility :
Arcane shield : block
Mist form : invulnerability
Conjure Earth shield skill #5 : invulnerability
Conjure lightning hammer skill #1 : ae blind (spammable)

Other :
Large acces to vigor. Traits that enhance endurance regeneration. high regeneration in water attunement. Trait like stone heart that are glass canon killer. Diamond skin that are condition killer. Large acces to condi removal. Pretty good acces to weakness, cripple, chill, aoe stun… etc.

Either you don’t play elementalist or you play another game but as for Guild wars 2 your analysis is totally off for the elementalist. Thought you are right on the fact that some of these skills have a long cast time.

Copied from the list I compiled when comparing active defence between classes. I actually missed out blinds, cc and forgot about burning speed. Ele has the most options compared to other classes which makes sense as they are also the squishiest. Obviously not all of them are good. But theres plenty of choice and Im sure you can incorporate a lot of these into your build without much sacrifice.

Ele – 4 Projectile block/reflects, 3 Blocks, 3 Invulns, 3 Evades, 6 endurance regen – 19 active defence options

Magnetic Aura
Magnetic Wave
Swirling Winds
Ring of Earth
Arcane Shield
Final Shielding
Stone Sheath
Mist Form
Obsidian Flesh
Fortify
Burning Retreat
Burning Speed
Updraft
Phoenix
Renewing Stamina
Soothing Disruption
Vigorous Scepter
Zephyrs Focus
Arcane Energy

Spoj, your listing is spead between many weapon/attunement, so in overall, we don’t have as many damage mitigation as your list tend to say.

We got the best protection uptime though elemental attunement (yes i know this shouldnt be mandatory, but it’s another subject), we’re the only class that still have an easy acces to perma vigor

Yes the list is just all options spread throughout the class. Its still the most amount of options compared to other classes. And you can get quite a lot at the same time. My point wasnt you should have all 19 of these so you should be fine. My point was heres a list of everything the class has, im sure you can use some of these in your build.

Hm perhaps I have been playing too much D/D so I felt my options quite limited in comparison with S/F.

I still don’t think Mist Form is acceptable in current state though when compared to other similar skills (you used to be able to channel in it at least). I also have an issue with classes where the immunity is based on time rather than “3 hit block” (which funny seems like what should have been done to begin with for all classes).

Actually swim is right.

Did anyone think ‘Why was the Ele placed behind the ranger as class which needs the most help’?

It’s because it has some nice 1v1 defence, but anything more than that by 2 competent players, the ele will drop. Everyone knows they’re dealing with a class with <20khp and 2600 armour usually. An ele has a few escapes on very long cooldowns, once they’re blown…that’s it. They don’t have an ongoing defensive ability like stealth on demand, or a high hp regen rate or multiple shields. Our only decent elite is good for running away from fights, which is not helpful if it’s a 2v2.

Nice list by the way, how exactly do I get all of those. You see the ele has to pick mobility, or defence. If you pick more mobility skills you are more prone to being quickly focused. If you pick more defense skills, you are easier to catch. Other classes get abilities all packed into whole lines, Eles always have to pick and choose, and always with long cooldowns.

Well yeah that may be true. But when i compare ele to necro i cant help but feel ele is really lucky. Necro doesnt survive any better when being outnumbered and focused and necro has no escapes or damage negation. Ele has a hard time because if you misuse your active defence you dont have much hp to give you breathing room. Necro has a hard time because all they have is high hp. Both classes have serious survivability problems in pvp. But ele atleast got some improvements in the last patch.

The CDI vote was a popularity contest. Its not fair to say any class needed more help than the others. I think ranger, ele and necro all needed help pretty desperately, but obviously ranger and ele are more popular so they placed higher on the list.

Oh I agree with the necro, my friend plays one. He hates the lack of stability and lack of escapes.

His plague form elite does grant him a tremendous amount of time if he’s focused though. The problem with necros and buffing mobility is you have a potentially 50k hp class (taking ds into account), who can do amazing condi damage, has high armour and then you make them super mobile…..you’ll end up with the warrior mark 2.

Just to make people understand where this is coming from:

I have an issue with classes having abilities like these, while we get all the long cooldowns and lacklusted survival skills. This is just an EXAMPLE so – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy

It still amazed me that mesmers were put on the medium hp tables when they have such amazing escapes/invis/evades/blocks etc..

You guys forgot what I think is our best damage mitigation mechanic: range control.
Most of our attacks have a range which is higher than melee, even on dagger, and we have plenty of movement controls to keep our foes from reaching us.

Swim.6830:

Just to make people understand where this is coming from:

I have an issue with classes having abilities like these, while we get all the long cooldowns and lacklusted survival skills. This is just an EXAMPLE so – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy

Mesmer’s mainhand sword is actually a pretty good example. It comes with a stunbreak+teleport, AND a high-damage evade.

But it’s also an example of how it comes down to the weapon. If I’m not mistaken, isn’t D/D the most vulnerable weaponset for Eles? Focus gives an invuln, AoE Projectile invuln, a nice heal. Traiting into 20Water/30Arcana gives access to more heals. All the cantrips (Even Mist Form) are decent-to-great defenses.

Most Mesmer have about 3 stunbreaks and 2 ‘evades.’ Besides the mainhand sword, the majority of our defenses comes from our utilities.

phaeris.7604:

It still amazed me that mesmers were put on the medium hp tables when they have such amazing escapes/invis/evades/blocks etc..

This. I can spec almost full zerker on my mesmer and yet be harder to kill than my 2700 armour Ele with 3 cantrips.

Don’t get me started on the damage:survivability ratio of my shout warrior…

Dadnir.5038:

Challenge accepted :

Staff :
Air skill #2 : ae blind

a skilled backstab thief will explode you 6 times (including your teammates ressing you) in between you press the key and the spell actually lands.

earth skill # 3 : projectile reflexion

tiny detail: everything else will still kill you

Air skill #3 : free stun

it delays by 1 second (the time in which the thief is stunned and his basilisk venom finishes its effect) your downed state.

Scepter :
Air skill #3 : blind

you forgot Earth 3 which also is a blind, but so slow that its designed to land only on bad players.

Focus :
Air skill #4 : destroy projectils

everything else will still melt you

Earth skill #4 : reflect projectils

and cure three conditions.

Earth skill #5 : invulnerability

Gordon Ramsey’s voice: “it’s cooldown is so high that is under NASA jurisdiction!!!!”

Mist form : invulnerability

it will do nothing against conditions already applied, ’tho, and will note break-stuns, being very close to be completely useless

Conjure Earth shield skill #5 : invulnerability

try using it in Tournaments….

Large acces to condi removal.

nothing that skilled necro/mesmer/engi cannot bypass while they smoke a cigarette watching you melt while pressing 1845873248676 buttons to finally press “2” in downed state and laugh with Homer Simpson voice “trololol I trolled him. Deh, time to respawn”

Either you don’t play elementalist or you play another game but as for Guild wars 2 your analysis is totally off for the elementalist.

I appreciate your blind optimism, but I think that alone will not be useful to improve the situation of this class.

one thing listing survivability skill completely negates is recharge time.

For example mist form and arcane shield, two utility slots focused on surviving
but consider this, base recharge both are 75s C/D

compare this with shield stance (warrior 30s C/D), or gear shield (engineer 20s C/D)

now even though my theoretical ele is carrying twice as much survival skills as both the warrior and the engineer i actually have less suvivabilty than both, by the time i’ve used one and the cool down is up the warrior could have used shield stance twice with rechange half way over, and the engineer using there skill 3 times and almost being ready a 4th time.

Now i’m not going to state for or against damage mitigation as i think ele is in a fairly good spot at the moment, compared with pre-patch (although it would be hard to get to a worse spot than before).

However just wanted to point out that listing all the options for active defense can lead to misleading conclusions.

After reading through all of this, I can’t help but feel I’m wasting time playing an Ele as much as I have been, heh.

So yeah….What other professions do people enjoy playing?

Swim.6830:

I am just trying to bring this into discussion due to the below points:
- other classes can heal just as well if not better and sometimes passively
- we are one of the classes with lowest HP together with Thief and Guardian (both of which are in a very good spot and are well balanced)
- depending on the weapon, we have some of the slowest and most choreographed attacks in the game which makes it easy for opponents to dodge almost anything we do
- we are a boon dependent class for our defense, but currently a lot of classes can mitigate this easily (PvP)
- we do not have an abundance of controlling conditions and CC to keep opponents at bay like other classes can (I am gonna throw our pets here too)

Feel free to flame me too, I am completely open to discussion and I might just suck completely, tho I have mained Ele since beta and currently.

I’m not sure how you can make some of these claims when ele has a massive amount of CC and control, some of the best all around healing, and great mobility.

Yes in exchange, ele lacks direct mitigation but if you wanted to tank any type of focused damage, wouldn’t you be a guardian or warrior? Given the points raised, I think you’ve been playing the wrong class all this time.

As dagger:
Updraft 40sec CD
Earthquake 45sec CD
Frozen burst 15sec (require to be close range)

Staff:
Gust, never land
static field 40sec CD
Unsteady ground, work only in pelicular spot, other way, you just have to pass on the side
shock wave, same as gust, so hard to land cause way to slow
frozen ground 40sec CD
=> In the end i only count frozen ground and static field

Focus:
Gale 50sec CD
Comet 25sec CD (does it work if the opponent is moving while under swifness ?)
Freezing gust 25sec CD

Do i have to list war hammer ?
No we don’t have “many CC”

It’s amazing how people don’t want to see that ele have conjure weapon.
So Mattmatt, you miss :

Lightning hammer :
- Static field 25s CD
- Wind blast 18s CD

Conjure earth shield :
- Magnetic surge 12s CD

I think we can close our eyes and say Ele have nothing no condition, no CC, no evade, no movement skills, no root… etc. But we can also open theses same eyes and see that we have all of them. The fact that they ain’t where you want them to be to fit your build is another matter.

Necromancers have far less “control” skills, movement skills, evade. They have DS.
Mesmer don’t have a stun break on sword main hand. Don’t forget most of mesmers utilities are awfull.
Thieves have stun, evade, invisibility but ae wise they are pityable. Do they have launch? No.
I could say the same for every classe in game. Ele have plenty of option you use them or not, you see them or not but they are there, that’s a fact.

This sort of thread again. I’m amazed how many new players(or players that have not spent enough time playing this profession to master it) fail to realize the various defensive methods the Ele possesses to avoid, counter and recover from damage easily. This have been discussed extensively on previous threads already.

I’m not complaining about ele, i feel myself at a very decent spot as Ele, i just to point out to few people how amusing are the things they say.

Like for dadnir:
Do you really run conjure in pvp ? ^^

LightningBlaze.4913:

This sort of thread again. I’m amazed how many new players(or players that have not spent enough time playing this profession to master it) fail to realize the various defensive methods the Ele possesses to avoid, counter and recover from damage easily. This have been discussed extensively on previous threads already.

If you aren’t making any arguments, don’t bother posting accusations left and right.

And really? Necros have far less control skills?? You limit the meaning of control. Control is controlling the fight, which Necros can easily do with things like chain fear, boon conversion, condition unloading etc. I am not saying Necros are in a better state, but don’t say things which are obviously false.

It hurts to read so much nonsense…

Firstly, no profession has as much condi cleanse and healing over time as the elementalist. Secondly, as Zelyhn said, we’re mid range, giving a massive advantage over melee opponents, and making us far harder to put damage in, due to the fact we don’t have to be on top of our opponent. Third, perma vigor. Fourth, please stop comparing ele to any other profession without looking at the big picture.

Seriously, stuff like ‘how come we don’t get stealth game is so unfair’ is really kitten painful for me to read.

Swim.6830:

LightningBlaze.4913:

This sort of thread again. I’m amazed how many new players(or players that have not spent enough time playing this profession to master it) fail to realize the various defensive methods the Ele possesses to avoid, counter and recover from damage easily. This have been discussed extensively on previous threads already.

If you aren’t making any arguments, don’t bother posting accusations left and right.

And really? Necros have far less control skills?? You limit the meaning of control. Control is controlling the fight, which Necros can easily do with things like chain fear, boon conversion, condition unloading etc. I am not saying Necros are in a better state, but don’t say things which are obviously false.

I never bother to argue with players that dont know what the Ele profession truly is capable. Specially, when it comes to this topic that has been debated several times and proven wrong.

LightningBlaze.4913:

Swim.6830:

LightningBlaze.4913:

This sort of thread again. I’m amazed how many new players(or players that have not spent enough time playing this profession to master it) fail to realize the various defensive methods the Ele possesses to avoid, counter and recover from damage easily. This have been discussed extensively on previous threads already.

If you aren’t making any arguments, don’t bother posting accusations left and right.

And really? Necros have far less control skills?? You limit the meaning of control. Control is controlling the fight, which Necros can easily do with things like chain fear, boon conversion, condition unloading etc. I am not saying Necros are in a better state, but don’t say things which are obviously false.

I never bother to argue with players that dont know what the Ele profession truly is capable. Specially, when it comes to this topic that has been debated several times and proven wrong.

If you truly feel that way, you could post something to disprove his claims. And for some reason you don’t feel like doing it, you could have simply not said anything at all. We don’t care if you are debated this topic for years, if you don’t want to debate it any further just move along, we don’t need to know how much better you think you are than everyone else.

Looking through the lists of CC that people provide; our abilities are definitely really nice on paper, but when in game, as far as CC is concerned for a D/D, Updraft, Shocking Aura and Earthquake are all on really long CD’s. As well as RTL. 40 second CD’s are simply not justified. I think most issues that people have when playing an Ele can be completely fixed with shorter CD’s. Especially with Updraft and Earthquake. Whenever I’m getting bursted, it’s a game changer to updraft or EQ a Thief/Warrior/etc. It also feels so good to throw around a hammertard warrior.

If Anet doesn’t want to lower our CD’s on these very important abilities, then at least increase the CD’s for fears and other CC’s across all characters so they become abilities that people use strategically, because as it stands now, hammer warriors can just rotate through their CC’s over and over without having to give their CD’s a thought. Also, Necro’s get to automatically fear people when any kind of CC gets applied to them. There’s not much counter play to that, and it rewards passive play, which is something that IIRC Anet doesn’t want in PvP.

Do CC’s have diminishing returns? In the case they don’t, they really should. I know immobilize has a stacking duration, which I find hilarious and cheesey. It’s basically a death sentence, especially because we can’t dodge roll when immob’d.

If you are not dodging the warriors CC despite their HUGE tells then you are going to have a bad time

Darox.8069:

If you are not dodging the warriors CC despite their HUGE tells then you are going to have a bad time

Admittedly, I’m not good at dodging their CC’s, and once one hits me, then they can just keep the train up unless I pop armor of earth then /lol at them wasting CD’s.

Anomaly.7612:

Darox.8069:

If you are not dodging the warriors CC despite their HUGE tells then you are going to have a bad time

Admittedly, I’m not good at dodging their CC’s, and once one hits me, then they can just keep the train up unless I pop armor of earth then /lol at them wasting CD’s.

Try to train for it, it’s not as hard as it sound. Let me give you a few tips:
If it is a Hambow warrior then as soon as you see them switching to hammer you want to be moving sideways a lot. This will make them have a hard time landing their CCs. Then just expect them: the warrior is going to go into some leaping animation, it’s relatively long, if you are waiting for it then you can dodge it easily. The hard part is noticing this in team fights. If you can cripple the warrior then you will have a very easy time. It takes one or two dodges to completely outplay a hambow warrior

silvermember.8941:

LightningBlaze.4913:

Swim.6830:

LightningBlaze.4913:

This sort of thread again. I’m amazed how many new players(or players that have not spent enough time playing this profession to master it) fail to realize the various defensive methods the Ele possesses to avoid, counter and recover from damage easily. This have been discussed extensively on previous threads already.

If you aren’t making any arguments, don’t bother posting accusations left and right.

And really? Necros have far less control skills?? You limit the meaning of control. Control is controlling the fight, which Necros can easily do with things like chain fear, boon conversion, condition unloading etc. I am not saying Necros are in a better state, but don’t say things which are obviously false.

I never bother to argue with players that dont know what the Ele profession truly is capable. Specially, when it comes to this topic that has been debated several times and proven wrong.

If you truly feel that way, you could post something to disprove his claims. And for some reason you don’t feel like doing it, you could have simply not said anything at all. We don’t care if you are debated this topic for years, if you don’t want to debate it any further just move along, we don’t need to know how much better you think you are than everyone else.

The reason why I posted on this thread is because these negative topics discourage newcomers from improving with the profession. Some false statements made here are stated as if they are facts and that mislead new and inexperienced players. In reality, experienced good players perfectly know these assumptions are untrue and are just opinions from personal experiences. Once again this discussion already took place on previous threads. There’s no need to keep repeating the same unnecessary argument. I don’t consider myself better than everyone else. There are players better than me as an Ele with all weapon sets and various playstyles that I have met. Most of them are not even active in the forum.

spoj.9672:

Copied from the list I compiled when comparing active defence between classes. I actually missed out blinds, cc and forgot about burning speed. Ele has the most options compared to other classes which makes sense as they are also the squishiest. Obviously not all of them are good. But theres plenty of choice and Im sure you can incorporate a lot of these into your build without much sacrifice.

Ele – 4 Projectile block/reflects, 3 Blocks, 3 Invulns, 3 Evades, 6 endurance regen – 19 active defence options

Magnetic Aura
Magnetic Wave
Swirling Winds
Ring of Earth
Arcane Shield
Final Shielding
Stone Sheath
Mist Form
Obsidian Flesh
Fortify
Burning Retreat
Burning Speed
Updraft
Phoenix
Renewing Stamina
Soothing Disruption
Vigorous Scepter
Zephyrs Focus
Arcane Energy

It doesn’t really make sense to just throw all potential damage mitigation skills into one list, you can’t obtain all of these in one build, you are creating an unrealistic point of view.

I may be wrong but I believe the OP wants a play style which better offers high risk for high reward. Think Counter Strike, one man can outplay an entire team if hes good enough and its all about skill, not build. Unfortunately MMORPGS just don’t offer this level of play style, yet…

Anomaly.7612:

Also, Necro’s get to automatically fear people when any kind of CC gets applied to them. There’s not much counter play to that, and it rewards passive play, which is something that IIRC Anet doesn’t want in PvP.

You realise that’s a Major Master trait that requires one to invest 4 trait points, right? Mesmers have a similar trait in Mirror of Anguish and elementalists have Tempest Defense. It’d be easier to take your post seriously if you’d actually fact-checked your own points.

Gokil.2543:

It hurts to read so much nonsense…

Firstly, no profession has as much condi cleanse and healing over time as the elementalist. Secondly, as Zelyhn said, we’re mid range, giving a massive advantage over melee opponents, and making us far harder to put damage in, due to the fact we don’t have to be on top of our opponent. Third, perma vigor. Fourth, please stop comparing ele to any other profession without looking at the big picture.

Seriously, stuff like ‘how come we don’t get stealth game is so unfair’ is really kitten painful for me to read.

I’m kind of on board with this. Comparing classes without considering class mechanic/traits is like comparing Lamborghini Gallardo to a Ford Focus just because they are cars.

The D/D ele not being technically melee is a pretty big advantage which you will appreciate when you hop on a Med Guard with Sw/Focu+GS and duel a Elementalist.

Grimreaper.5370:

spoj.9672:

snip

It doesn’t really make sense to just throw all potential damage mitigation skills into one list, you can’t obtain all of these in one build, you are creating an unrealistic point of view.

I may be wrong but I believe the OP wants a play style which better offers high risk for high reward. Think Counter Strike, one man can outplay an entire team if hes good enough and its all about skill, not build. Unfortunately MMORPGS just don’t offer this level of play style, yet…

Completely missed my point. Which seems to be what everyone does when I posted these lists. Its simply a list showing all the possible tools the class has. Obviously you cant get all of them at the same time. But they are there. :P

oZii.2864:

Gokil.2543:

It hurts to read so much nonsense…

Firstly, no profession has as much condi cleanse and healing over time as the elementalist. Secondly, as Zelyhn said, we’re mid range, giving a massive advantage over melee opponents, and making us far harder to put damage in, due to the fact we don’t have to be on top of our opponent. Third, perma vigor. Fourth, please stop comparing ele to any other profession without looking at the big picture.

Seriously, stuff like ‘how come we don’t get stealth game is so unfair’ is really kitten painful for me to read.

I’m kind of on board with this. Comparing classes without considering class mechanic/traits is like comparing Lamborghini Gallardo to a Ford Focus just because they are cars.

The D/D ele not being technically melee is a pretty big advantage which you will appreciate when you hop on a Med Guard with Sw/Focu+GS and duel a Elementalist.

I am not comparing a class per class, I actually was listing the bigger picture, then a list was provided (thank you!) with all our defensive skills to see how it matches up.

Almost all of our active defenses are forcing us to play “defensive” which is fine, but a quick look at the cooldowns will show a grim picture compared to what every other class can do. And while we do have that little 300 extra range even as D/D, it is close to meaningless to the classes that can actually harm Eles the most and in PvP where you have to hold a point.

The long cooldowns are hardly an opinion as is the fact that most our defenses currently are very situational. Either or would be fine, but both is a bad combination.

The rest of the things mentioned are things traited, not inherent. It seems some people have gotten so used to THE ONE build that makes up for the lack of defenses, that everything else doesn’t matter anymore.

If we had comparable class defenses, imagine what builds people would be making (and I admit that THE ONE build will probably will have to be changed as well to not overpower Eles into mega bunkers).

Elementalists can’t change weapon sets so I agree with the above comments that it doesn’t make sense to talk about X, Y, and Z skills from different sets.

By “THE ONE” build do you mean 0 2 0 6 6? Then you would have to consider the teamplay aspect as well. Same with staff in general. I really hope you’re not considering staff balance in a 1v1 context because that’s not why it’s used.

If you want to talk about balance, pick a weapon set first. Please. Or we could go in meaningless circles for days. I would agree, for example, that S/x needs more CC/control skills, but not damage mitigation.

But in short, if you’re trying to claim eles are still underpowered post-patch, I would have to disagree. Though the build and gear choices are still too limited.

And if you’re trying to claim damage mitigation should be improved or cooldowns reduced, I would also have to disagree. That would sort of go against the theme of the elementalist class as very mobile, high damage, but low actual mitigation. If you want high mitigation, lower mobility and lower damage/AoE damage, you can’t go wrong with guardian.

D/D + 0/0/2/6/6 + Cantrips + Celestial bunker is your one and only answer. Ele “defense” revolves around that 1 build.

Every other Ele build continues to suffer from the same massive issues in SPvP it has been having over the last year or so.

The latest patch was pretty much a D/D patch.

Zephyrus.9680:

And if you’re trying to claim damage mitigation should be improved or cooldowns reduced, I would also have to disagree. That would sort of go against the theme of the elementalist class as very mobile, high damage, but low actual mitigation. If you want high mitigation, lower mobility and lower damage/AoE damage, you can’t go wrong with guardian.

How about a very mobile, high damage AND high mitigation/avoidance class? Thief and Warrior. They do a better job than what Ele’s do and are vastly easier to play.

Wintel.4873:

D/D + 0/0/2/6/6 + Cantrips + Celestial bunker is your one and only answer. Ele “defense” revolves around that 1 build.

Every other Ele build continues to suffer from the same massive issues in SPvP it has been having over the last year or so.

The latest patch was pretty much a D/D patch.

Zephyrus.9680:

And if you’re trying to claim damage mitigation should be improved or cooldowns reduced, I would also have to disagree. That would sort of go against the theme of the elementalist class as very mobile, high damage, but low actual mitigation. If you want high mitigation, lower mobility and lower damage/AoE damage, you can’t go wrong with guardian.

How about a very mobile, high damage AND high mitigation/avoidance class? Thief and Warrior.

“[thief and warrior] do a better job than what Ele’s do and are vastly easier to play”
You’re comparing apples to oranges, to strawberries.

Warrior can choose either damage or survival, hardly both and they’re not good AoE except hambow I guess… They still seem to consistently lose to D/D in 1v1, even sometimes staff. Thief is just a 1v1/gank class and inline for a buff somewhere IMO. Is stealth really damage mitigation vs ele?

I agree the latest patch is a D/D patch in terms of where the buffs happened. But regarding “the One” build, I’m at over 100 games with a custom 4/0/0/4/6 build at 76:35 win/loss in soloQ. That’s over 2:1 ratio. It was actually over 3:1 at the mid point before the matchmaking caught up. That doesn’t really happen with a subpar build. Just because it’s common doesn’t mean it’s the only good option.

I do agree eles are in a very restricted place in terms of builds, traits, and utilities. Their viability also seems very reliant on the new rune of strength which is not an ideal way to go about balancing a class… So yes there are issues with this precarious way Anet choose to balance things. Particularly when it seems likely (to me) that rune of strength will receive a nerf sooner or later.

But I’m just not seeing how as a blanket claim that damage mitigation is an issue, considering the above average sustain, dodge (vigor), and mobility options available to ele.

To all who said we can use our conjured weapons -
If I wanted to play a hammer, a GS, an axe, bow or a shield, I would’ve played a warrior.
I chose an elementalist to play as an elementalist. Not as a warrior disguised as one.

So stop telling me to use a hammer on my kittening mage.

Swim.6830:

I am not comparing a class per class, I actually was listing the bigger picture, then a list was provided (thank you!) with all our defensive skills to see how it matches up.

Almost all of our active defenses are forcing us to play “defensive” which is fine, but a quick look at the cooldowns will show a grim picture compared to what every other class can do. And while we do have that little 300 extra range even as D/D, it is close to meaningless to the classes that can actually harm Eles the most and in PvP where you have to hold a point.

The long cooldowns are hardly an opinion as is the fact that most our defenses currently are very situational. Either or would be fine, but both is a bad combination.

The rest of the things mentioned are things traited, not inherent. It seems some people have gotten so used to THE ONE build that makes up for the lack of defenses, that everything else doesn’t matter anymore.

If we had comparable class defenses, imagine what builds people would be making (and I admit that THE ONE build will probably will have to be changed as well to not overpower Eles into mega bunkers).

If D/D was junk and S/D was junk and our only good sets where staff and D/F or S/F then would the picture look different?

Damage mitigation is protection, your example of Blurred frenzy is in most cases damage negating unless you have condis on you. Focus Earth 5 is straight up uncounterable negating damage which makes it really really strong because you can still do other things. That’s probably the most powerful weapon skill in the game tbh.

The one build is made up of traits to make it work not the weapon set. If your looking for damage mitigation for traits then your looking for earths embrace, elemental attunement, elemental shielding, frost aura, or just general reductions in damage.

Earth 5 on focus, blurred frenzy, burning speed during evade frames, blind during that attack, and dodge roll all negate damage or “I press this button and I take no damage”. Earths embrace, elemental shield, frost aura all mitigate damage or “I press this button and I take less damage”.

Zephyrus.9680:

Wintel.4873:

D/D + 0/0/2/6/6 + Cantrips + Celestial bunker is your one and only answer. Ele “defense” revolves around that 1 build.

Every other Ele build continues to suffer from the same massive issues in SPvP it has been having over the last year or so.

The latest patch was pretty much a D/D patch.

Zephyrus.9680:

And if you’re trying to claim damage mitigation should be improved or cooldowns reduced, I would also have to disagree. That would sort of go against the theme of the elementalist class as very mobile, high damage, but low actual mitigation. If you want high mitigation, lower mobility and lower damage/AoE damage, you can’t go wrong with guardian.

How about a very mobile, high damage AND high mitigation/avoidance class? Thief and Warrior.

“[thief and warrior] do a better job than what Ele’s do and are vastly easier to play”
You’re comparing apples to oranges, to strawberries.

Warrior can choose either damage or survival, hardly both and they’re not good AoE except hambow I guess… They still seem to consistently lose to D/D in 1v1, even sometimes staff. Thief is just a 1v1/gank class and inline for a buff somewhere IMO. Is stealth really damage mitigation vs ele?

I agree the latest patch is a D/D patch in terms of where the buffs happened. But regarding “the One” build, I’m at over 100 games with a custom 4/0/0/4/6 build at 76:35 win/loss in soloQ. That’s over 2:1 ratio. It was actually over 3:1 at the mid point before the matchmaking caught up. That doesn’t really happen with a subpar build. Just because it’s common doesn’t mean it’s the only good option.

I do agree eles are in a very restricted place in terms of builds, traits, and utilities. Their viability also seems very reliant on the new rune of strength which is not an ideal way to go about balancing a class… So yes there are issues with this precarious way Anet choose to balance things. Particularly when it seems likely (to me) that rune of strength will receive a nerf sooner or later.

But I’m just not seeing how as a blanket claim that damage mitigation is an issue, considering the above average sustain, dodge (vigor), and mobility options available to ele.

I personally prefer using a soldiers amulet with that build. More Vit/Toughness and power for raw damage.

I main a necri and war.
I.just recently re rolled my ele for some good old.pvp.fun, the main reason i did was i was in a 3v1 vs a ele and all he.did was stay on point heal like crazy and fly around every were.

In my opinion ele has fine mitigation, its just active not passive.
With makes the.class so much fun.

But.im no expert.

I play d/f celestial build in pvp 2/0/2/4/6 with SoR and I find that it has tons of CC and damage mitigation. Overall the build is strong. You have tons of healing with this set up and traits, permanent regeneration/passive healing… Water also provides 2 chills with relatively low CD and a daze. Invulnerability in earth with 50 sec cd is way better than mist form and more what any other class gets on their regular weapon sets (blurred frenzy might be a strong evade, but it will root you and you can’t do anything else). You have 2 interrupts and an additional stun. 1 reflect + projectile destroyer…. One immobilize in earth… You have plenty, and that not even mentioning any utilities!

Most importantly, you should be able to win 1v1 against any class. You should also be able to out last small scale fights. Put it in such context, there is really no issue there. The issue lies rather within lack of build diversity and having to sacrifice one thing for an other. E.g. dagger off hand gives more damage and mobility, while focus is more defensive and used more as a utility. Or all you looking to win solo against 3-5 players on your own? In such case, that should never be a criterion for class balancing. What I can agree upon is that Ele is somewhat harder to play than other classes, but it’s not because they lack the tools… It’s just harder to learn. And you also have to accept the fact that you can’t just face-tank unlimited amount of damage… something it seems ppl tend to forget.

To the OP in his first post, you reference Necro but keep in mind
they have the highest hitpoint pool in game AND can switch between
shadow form as damage mitigation (whatever that is called).

Ele’s have not only the lowest armor in the game, but also the lowest
HP. Despite this, they give classes like warriors (who have plate and high
HP) and rogues (who can stealth anytime things get dangerous) better
damage mitigation even though Ele in theory need more.

Thunderbrew.7034:

To the OP in his first post, you reference Necro but keep in mind
they have the highest hitpoint pool in game AND can switch between
shadow form as damage mitigation (whatever that is called).

Ele’s have not only the lowest armor in the game, but also the lowest
HP. Despite this, they give classes like warriors (who have plate and high
HP) and rogues (who can stealth anytime things get dangerous) better
damage mitigation even though Ele in theory need more.

I do think it’d be nice if they gave us a base of 1500 like they do with Mesmers. Doesn’t really make sense as we dont’ have clones or stealth to help us.

i’ve been playing a stone heart conjure ele in pvp recently and i can tell you,
it has alot of mitigation! (especially considering the huge damage you can do)
its fun chasing a hammer warrior as they run away from the “melee-ele” XD

though you are right, we need to spec for defence far more than other classes who can just pop a skill and become invisible etc.