Guild Wars 2

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Xenon.4537:

I think you are getting up in your head too much. Obviously you aren’t supposed to sit in earth attunement all the time. You’re supposed to switch in to it to mitigate damage, then switch out of it to deal dps.

I don’t profess to be an expert on Ele, but 10-13 seconds cooldown on an ability which can give you:

- crit immunity
- 33% damage reduction
- 120 toughness
- aoe cripple
- powerful defensive weapon skills

It would be nice if someone could calculate the effective % damage reduction gained by having crit immunity to a standard zerker build. Like, how much dps does a zerker lose if they never crit?

- Crit immunity means nothing if you are no threat until you swap out. Once that happens you are going to be a BIG target for burst.

- 33% damage reduction? How so. If you are counting the protection from going into Earth, that is a 20point trait in Arcana.

- Toughness is nothing compared to the insane burst some classes can do

- Oh yeah a MINOR cripple that lasts 3 seconds, oh yeah thats a REAL threat…

- “powerful defensive skills” Yeah, Earth has like Three on different weapons and only two can be used together and which really overlap. Them being Magnetic Aura(Staff) and Magnetic Wave and Obsidian Flesh (Focus) everything else Earth offers is simply not a “powerful defensive skill”

You are also missing the point. They WILL crit. They just won’t crit all the time. The moment you leave Earth which you will have no choice but to either to heal or if you actually want to deal damage then you have a HUGE target on your head.

I can actually see this being WORSE for the ele, classes will just tickle the ele, doing enough damage to get the ele into Earth but holding enough burst back for when they are forced out of it. This could just end up meaning that players will just burst even harder the moment they know the ele isn’t in Earth and hold back enough when they are.

Yeah, like the guy above me said, stop thinking like you should be sitting in 1 attunement all day. Of course you have to swap to deal damage. I’m not missing the point at all. You’re missing the point that earth is designed for defense, and this trait simply makes that defense stronger. You only go earth if you want to mitigate damage or apply some CC. Or in the case of staff or dagger- drop an aoe bleed bomb.

Yea Ash man I just don’t follow how you play Elementalist and use the arguement that earth isn’t a threat. It’s like you don’t understand the attunements or Ele at all.

It’s like if it isn’t big damage then it’s a waste. Therefore delete “Earth Line” should we delete water? Unless you can tell me how water attunement is a “threat” or is it ok for water to not be a threat cause it has a heal(only if you go 15 points in anyway).

If you plan to stay 30 water 30 arcana these traits aren’t for you. 30 water 30 arcana is still viable now and will be after the patch you would have to give up 30 points somewhere and if you aren’t comfortable doing that then that’s your playstyle.

People will be fine experimenting with these new traits and moving trait points around to see what they come up with. Someone has to go out and try the traits because people are afraid to move points out of water or arcana won’t.

The outcome is new builds are popularized and you hop on the train. No new builds happen and you tell everyone I told you so. To get there people have to go out and try the traits we know you wont try them thats ok.

Those traits that force you into some specific attunement is nethier fun nor innovative. This trait is likely programmed in 5min or so.

Lol.. the trait is not supposed to be all and end all for the ele. Its 1 out of 2 possible gm in your build afterall. Its not supposed to give you free pass against 2vs1s without cds etc ..:D

Xenon.4537:

It would be nice if someone could calculate the effective % damage reduction gained by having crit immunity to a standard zerker build. Like, how much dps does a zerker lose if they never crit?

If a build had 100% critical damage, and 50% critical chance, it’ll lose 1/3 of its dps.

Avead.5760:

Lol.. the trait is not supposed to be all and end all for the ele. Its 1 out of 2 possible gm in your build afterall. Its not supposed to give you free pass against 2vs1s without cds etc ..:D

Exactly! I just don’t follow the logic going on here!

oZii.2864:

Avead.5760:

Lol.. the trait is not supposed to be all and end all for the ele. Its 1 out of 2 possible gm in your build afterall. Its not supposed to give you free pass against 2vs1s without cds etc ..:D

Exactly! I just don’t follow the logic going on here!

Yeah. They still have 40 points left to allocate, 3 utilities, 1 heal, 1 elite, different choices of armor and trinket stat combinations, runes, and sigils to balance their builds.

If only people would stop thinking they’re locked into certain traits like EA and Water Magic.

Off-topic:
You guys should definitely try Chillmentalist. It’s really fun in PvP hotjoin and 1v1s against not OP classes/builds. Take 30 Arcana for Elemental Surge instead of EA. Maybe it’d help you a little to get used to not having EA.

If I was a primary dagger ele stoneheart is bad because your earth auto attack is really really bad, scepter auto attack on a condi build can do 4000+ in bleeds alone tho. Sitting in earth when your auto attack hits hard might not be too bad. Same way sitting in air and lightning whipping a lot isn’t that bad as d/d.

Xenon.4537:

It would be nice if someone could calculate the effective % damage reduction gained by having crit immunity to a standard zerker build. Like, how much dps does a zerker lose if they never crit?

It is quite easy to calculate the damage reduction.
I’ll do the math for anyone wondering.

To calculate the effective damage output, all you have to do is weight the expected damage output with their relative chance.

So let’s define some variables:
p: critical chance (expressed in percentage values, for instance 50% critical chance is 0.50)
c: 1.5 + critical damage (the effective damage amplifier coefficient)
d: base damage

The effective damage (ED) with the chances to crit would be:

ED(crit) = p(d*c) + d*(1-p)

While, without the chances to crit:

ED(no-crit) = d

So the damage no critting damage compared to criting damage in percentage would be:

ED(no-crit)/ED(crit) = d/[d(p*c + 1 – p)] = 1/(1+p(c-1))

Now, to get the damage reduction, you have to subtract that value, which is the non-critting average damage normalized to critting damage, from the unit, which is the critting damage, so the final formula is:

1-{1/[1+p(c-1)]}

So, for instance, on a character with 50% crit chance (p = 0.5) and 100% crit damage (c = 1.5 + 1 = 2.5) the damage reduction would be:

1-{1/[1+0.5(2.5-1)]} = ~0.43 => 43% damage reduction

Obviously all of these calculations are made considering average damage and without taking into account fury uptimes or crit chances modifiers (like Hidden Killer, which always grants a critical hit). In those cases, the damage reduction would be even higher.

If you want to take into account also the damage reduction coming from protection, since you should have it when you swap into earth from another attunement, then all you have to do is to futher reduce the no-crit damage of 33%, making the numerator of the final equation be 0.66 instead of 1.

So, the damage reduction of Stone Earth + Protection is:

1-{0.66/[1+0.5(2.5-1)]} = 1 – ~0.38 = 62%

Kyon.9735:

Yeah. They still have 40 points left to allocate, 3 utilities, 1 heal, 1 elite, different choices of armor and trinket stat combinations, runes, and sigils to balance their builds.

If only people would stop thinking they’re locked into certain traits like EA and Water Magic.

Off-topic:
You guys should definitely try Chillmentalist. It’s really fun in PvP hotjoin and 1v1s against not OP classes/builds. Take 30 Arcana for Elemental Surge instead of EA. Maybe it’d help you a little to get used to not having EA.

Wow, 40 trait points. That isnt exactly a lot now is it. Then we get on to the Utilities….all of which have insane cool downs and the defensive ones have even higher cool downs. So really what does that matter?

As for Elite – we could go with FGS which is used MORE to actually escape than it is for fighting which says enough about that. It is also getting nerfed with changes to LF. We could use Tornado, oh wait that is TERRIBLE and has use in like 1% of the game. Has no added toughness for a melee transformation and is owned HARD by range classes. Or we could go with the insane cool down, average skill of the Elementals that unless you go for Earth they die in seconds and have VERY little impact on fights. yeah some GREAT choices here…

We have limited options in pretty much everything. The new sigil changes are a NERF to us (and engi) but a buff to everyone else. So we are rather limited when it comes to Sigils, the Rune changes mean less benefits from mixing runes which quite a few eles did as well.

I have yet to encounter a single ele that has no/low points in Earth, Water and Arcane. I spend hours in OS dueling as well and not seen a single one that hasn’t got at least 10+ points in them. Most go with 15-20 into Water and 30 into Arcane.

Now if we were given some REAL defensive options that didnt come with insane cool downs that actually the same cool down length as some classes ELITE skills then we wouldn’t need to go into the trait lines. However, that is not the case and these trait lines offer the best defense we can get.

The point is this: Will it stop some Crit hits? Yes. Will it turn the tide of fights? No. Within days other classes will expect all eles to be running this and with that they will just hold back enough to kill you the moment you come out of Earth.

It will do one thing: Delay the inevitable.
I guess i am one of the few that would rather have a trait that has the chance of turning the tide of fights. Rather than some lazy trait that only works in a terrible attunement. No one will care if you are in Earth, especially if you are using D/X they will continue to attack until you are forced out to heal -Then what? You get burst and burst hard.

Not many traits you take now don’t turn the tide of battle! Your play does that. Cleansing water doesn’t turn the tide of battle if you fight power builds.

For every trait you take now I can come up with just as many what ifs where the trait did nothing for you just like your doing with stone heart.

I can easily point out why putting 30 points in air just for the damage is better then putting so many points into arcana. Your looking for tide turning generality traits within your specific build or traits that are good enough for you to give up your points in water or arcana. The new trait that covers what your looking for is 30 fire coupled with burning precision something that can work regardless of the attunement your in.

Sent from my iPhone

Mitigating burst with Stone Heart every now and then doesn’t help when autoattacks still destroy me.

Honestly, I can see it being pretty good for Ether Renewal bunkers, but it still doesn’t help bring more balanced builds into play, because one has to give up too much damage/health+healing for such builds to take it.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Kyon.9735:

Yeah. They still have 40 points left to allocate, 3 utilities, 1 heal, 1 elite, different choices of armor and trinket stat combinations, runes, and sigils to balance their builds.

If only people would stop thinking they’re locked into certain traits like EA and Water Magic.

Off-topic:
You guys should definitely try Chillmentalist. It’s really fun in PvP hotjoin and 1v1s against not OP classes/builds. Take 30 Arcana for Elemental Surge instead of EA. Maybe it’d help you a little to get used to not having EA.

Wow, 40 trait points. That isnt exactly a lot now is it. Then we get on to the Utilities….all of which have insane cool downs and the defensive ones have even higher cool downs. So really what does that matter?

As for Elite – we could go with FGS which is used MORE to actually escape than it is for fighting which says enough about that. It is also getting nerfed with changes to LF. We could use Tornado, oh wait that is TERRIBLE and has use in like 1% of the game. Has no added toughness for a melee transformation and is owned HARD by range classes. Or we could go with the insane cool down, average skill of the Elementals that unless you go for Earth they die in seconds and have VERY little impact on fights. yeah some GREAT choices here…

We have limited options in pretty much everything. The new sigil changes are a NERF to us (and engi) but a buff to everyone else. So we are rather limited when it comes to Sigils, the Rune changes mean less benefits from mixing runes which quite a few eles did as well.

I have yet to encounter a single ele that has no/low points in Earth, Water and Arcane. I spend hours in OS dueling as well and not seen a single one that hasn’t got at least 10+ points in them. Most go with 15-20 into Water and 30 into Arcane.

Now if we were given some REAL defensive options that didnt come with insane cool downs that actually the same cool down length as some classes ELITE skills then we wouldn’t need to go into the trait lines. However, that is not the case and these trait lines offer the best defense we can get.

The point is this: Will it stop some Crit hits? Yes. Will it turn the tide of fights? No. Within days other classes will expect all eles to be running this and with that they will just hold back enough to kill you the moment you come out of Earth.

It will do one thing: Delay the inevitable.
I guess i am one of the few that would rather have a trait that has the chance of turning the tide of fights. Rather than some lazy trait that only works in a terrible attunement. No one will care if you are in Earth, especially if you are using D/X they will continue to attack until you are forced out to heal -Then what? You get burst and burst hard.

40 trait points is a lot if you don’t lock yourself into Water/Arcana.

Will it turn the tide of the battle? It depends on how you take advantage of it. Like that other guy pointed out (though his tongue is very sharp), you won’t notice the possibilities of Stone Heart to turn the tide of the battle if you mindlessly swap attunements just to spam available skills.

Chaosky.5276:

Mitigating burst with Stone Heart every now and then doesn’t help when autoattacks still destroy me.

Honestly, I can see it being pretty good for Ether Renewal bunkers, but it still doesn’t help bring more balanced builds into play, because one has to give up too much damage/health+healing for such builds to take it.

If you have any points in water you are more bunker then earth. There is more reliable modifiers for damage in earth then there is in water. Stone splinters>vital striking any day of the week.

sorrow.2364:

Xenon.4537:

It would be nice if someone could calculate the effective % damage reduction gained by having crit immunity to a standard zerker build. Like, how much dps does a zerker lose if they never crit?

It is quite easy to calculate the damage reduction.
I’ll do the math for anyone wondering.

To calculate the effective damage output, all you have to do is weight the expected damage output with their relative chance.

So let’s define some variables:
p: critical chance (expressed in percentage values, for instance 50% critical chance is 0.50)
c: 1.5 + critical damage (the effective damage amplifier coefficient)
d: base damage

The effective damage (ED) with the chances to crit would be:

ED(crit) = p(d*c) + d*(1-p)

While, without the chances to crit:

ED(no-crit) = d

So the damage no critting damage compared to criting damage in percentage would be:

ED(no-crit)/ED(crit) = d/[d(p*c + 1 – p)] = 1/(1+p(c-1))

Now, to get the damage reduction, you have to subtract that value, which is the non-critting average damage normalized to critting damage, from the unit, which is the critting damage, so the final formula is:

1-{1/[1+p(c-1)]}

So, for instance, on a character with 50% crit chance (p = 0.5) and 100% crit damage (c = 1.5 + 1 = 2.5) the damage reduction would be:

1-{1/[1+0.5(2.5-1)]} = ~0.43 => 43% damage reduction

Obviously all of these calculations are made considering average damage and without taking into account fury uptimes or crit chances modifiers (like Hidden Killer, which always grants a critical hit). In those cases, the damage reduction would be even higher.

If you want to take into account also the damage reduction coming from protection, since you should have it when you swap into earth from another attunement, then all you have to do is to futher reduce the no-crit damage of 33%, making the numerator of the final equation be 0.66 instead of 1.

So, the damage reduction of Stone Earth + Protection is:

1-{0.66/[1+0.5(2.5-1)]} = 1 – ~0.38 = 62%

the next thing to consider is that nearly all meta power builds dont invest into power via runes or traits. so stone heart is even stronger the more builds invest into precision.

example:
standard d/p thief 1/6/0/0/6 has 1989 power, 57% critchance without fury and 50% critdmg.

- on 2600 armor

• standard: effectiv power 3044,23; avg dmg per sec with aa chain: 1217,61 + 84 from perma poison after first rotation
  • standard with stone heart: ep: 1939; avg dmg per sec 775,55 + 84 from poison => ca. 36% dmg reduction

• + fury + executioner + lead attacks with full ini +250 power from killstacks + 5% dmg from sigill: effective power: 5424,34; avg dmg per sec with aa chain: 2169,59 + 84 from perma poison after first rotation
  • with stone heart: 3064,6; avg dmg per sec: 1225,75 + 84 from poison => ca. 44% dmg reduction

- on 4000 armor

• standard: ep 3044,23; avg dmg per sec: 791,44 + 84 from poison
  • + stone heart: ep: 1939; avg dmg per ec: 504,1 + 84 from poison => ca. 36% dmg reduction
• + all extra stuff: ep: 5424,34; avg dmg per sec: 1410,23 + 84 from poison
  • + stone heart: ep 3064,6; avg dmg per sec: 796,74 + 84 from poison => ca. 44% dmg reduction

with 0/0/6/1/6 build and both new gm traits. a ele sitting in earth has ca. 40% uptime of protection without any interaction. couple that with active defense + reworked Signet of Restoration and u have a very good bunker against raw dmg => game will shift more than now into condition builds.

considering a possible 3 condiclear on 20sec and 32sec cooldown + ice elemental with cleansing wave (aoe heal) . 1 4sec invuln on 40sec cooldown + a possible 3sec invuln on 30sec cooldown + no condis via crit procs and possible new anti condi runes/ sigills will make this a decent bunker against condis also. with some support i think we can and will see a new bunker meta. with 0/0/6/6/1 we have an even better bunker against condis.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

hooma.9642:

+ stone heart shuts down all condiapplication via crit-procs on runes, sigills or traits.

Sorry to tell you this, this trait will have NO affect on condition builds. None. Sure you stop the odd on crit trait from proccing. Shame that NO condition build actually relies on on Crit effects when they have SO much access to conditions without the need to crit. This will be as helpful against condition builds as Diamond Skin is – None.

sure, thats why no condition builds trait for burning on crit or bleed on crit with traits and runes. oh and because that extra condiapplication via trait without cooldown is so bad, that all condi players use settlers amulett and not rabid.

somehow i must missed the qq about dhuumfire.

/sarcasm

hooma.9642:

the next thing to consider is that nearly all meta power builds dont invest into power via runes or traits. so stone heart is even stronger the more builds invest into precision.

Sure.
The Stone Heart effectiveness scales linearly with both precision and critical damage, while it doesn’t scale with power at all.

Still, some people may argue that in WvW those kind of builds still have massive amounts of power coming from food and equipment, but in PvP it is extremely good since most berserker builds don’t have more than 2k power.

hooma.9642:

sure, thats why no condition builds trait for burning on crit or bleed on crit with traits and runes. oh and because that extra condiapplication via trait without cooldown is so bad, that all condi players use settlers amulett and not rabid.

somehow i must missed the qq about dhuumfire.

/sarcasm

You think that ONE condition is the WHOLE build of Necro. Burning is but one condition, it means nothing when they have SO much access to pretty much every other condition the game.

Removing Burning – will it hurt? Of course, its a nice damaging condition. Will it affect the outcome? No. People seem to think that this trait is going to be some super trait against power and condition builds – it wont be.

When classes (Engi and Necro) can just spam conditions to their hearts content, losing ONE condition won’t define how the fight goes. It will just mean it will take them a little longer to kill you. Though the same will be said about Power builds this will just mean it takes longer to kill the ele. Nothing else.

My condi Necro NEVER ran Dhuumfire. Because it wasn’t needed. Necro have plenty of access to conditions that Dhuumfire isn’t needed. Same goes for Engi my Engi never ran Incendiary Powder. Because again it wasn’t needed. Sure it means you won’t kill people as quickly but it doesn’t change the fight.

My Mesmer deals 2k damage without even critting on auto attack. This trait might be decent but after a while it will end up like Diamond Skin, barely used.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

hooma.9642:

sure, thats why no condition builds trait for burning on crit or bleed on crit with traits and runes. oh and because that extra condiapplication via trait without cooldown is so bad, that all condi players use settlers amulett and not rabid.

somehow i must missed the qq about dhuumfire.

/sarcasm

You think that ONE condition is the WHOLE build of Necro. Burning is but one condition, it means nothing when they have SO much access to pretty much every other condition the game.

Removing Burning – will it hurt? Of course, its a nice damaging condition. Will it affect the outcome? No. People seem to think that this trait is going to be some super trait against power and condition builds – it wont be.

When classes (Engi and Necro) can just spam conditions to their hearts content, losing ONE condition won’t define how the fight goes. It will just mean it will take them a little longer to kill you. Though the same will be said about Power builds this will just mean it takes longer to kill the ele. Nothing else.

My condi Necro NEVER ran Dhuumfire. Because it wasn’t needed. Necro have plenty of access to conditions that Dhuumfire isn’t needed. Same goes for Engi my Engi never ran Incendiary Powder. Because again it wasn’t needed. Sure it means you won’t kill people as quickly but it doesn’t change the fight.

My Mesmer deals 2k damage without even critting on auto attack. This trait might be decent but after a while it will end up like Diamond Skin, barely used.

diamond skin was and is bad cause it scales with horrible low amount of health. 2k on autoattack without critting? yeah my grandma deals 1000k on auto attack without hitting.. nice story bro. without build and target u can tell a lot. the math above proves enough to counter your story. necro has access to many condis? sure. but without a critting barbed precision and earth sigill the amount of “SPAM” is drastic reduced. the same goes for engi and sharpshooter. to bad u cant realize that.

just answer 1 question yourself. did u play with settlers or rabid amulett? when rabid amulett, why?

and just as a hint. burning isnt just 1 condition like 1 bleeding stack.

i think u cant think ahead and how slow and horrible your condi application is without crit procs. if u think u can pressure with that an ele with restorative signet and some condi clear and regen and ca. 400hps then good luck during your game. the question is not that u can kill something the question is how long it takes.. its conquest after all. but yeah. stupid argumentation from bad player. nothing expected. i will stop argueing with u.

Amulet? I am talking WvW. Who cares about S/TPvP. Its a terrible game mode. Which is also the reason why this game is SO unbalanced. As i have said – i have played with BOTH characters as condition builds and not taken either Burning trait. Sure, it will take longer – does not taking it really decide who will win and who will lose? No.

Slow? Like all Necromancer attacks stack conditions. Even Auto attack Scepter stacks 2 different conditions every 1.5seconds. Then you have the Spite signet and PLENTY of other access to conditions. They DON’T need Burning, they did just fine before it was introduced the only reason some take it is because of the nerfs they got because of it so it kind of seems a loss if they don’t. That doesn’t mean it is a defeat if they don’t take it.

You mean Signet of Restoration – i have over 800Helaing Power. It heals for not even 300 per a cast and remember the signet becomes weaker with certain weapons as well. Now, if only these condition classes didnt have easy access to Poison as well as the MANY other conditions…Oh wait. They do.

oZii.2864:

If you have any points in water you are more bunker then earth. There is more reliable modifiers for damage in earth then there is in water. Stone splinters>vital striking any day of the week.

I tend to use 0/20/0/20/30 d/d – Zephyr’s Boon offers plenty of Fury with 2-3 auras, Bolt to the Heart helps a lot when an enemy’s weak and my burst is on cooldown, and the other bonuses don’t hurt. Also, I don’t really do WvW anymore (I’ll spare you the details), so this is regarding SPvP, in which the extra Health from the Water line is much more important due to the limited gearing options (Valkyrie’s Amulet + Berserker’s Jewel, in my case).

Aside from that, the problem with the Stone Heart trait itself, for this type of build, is that warriors and thieves and such can pound a lot of damage into me pretty much constantly, meaning that I’d really only benefit by staying in Earth for extended periods of time, and if I’m not applying CC, healing, or dealing damage, I’m losing.

Furthermore, the trait is pretty much designed with the idea that the player would treat the Earth attunement itself as a defensive skill, which clashes horribly with how the class is actually played. As it is, on-swap bonuses encourage cycling through attunements quickly, and you’ll often find yourself wanting certain skills that are locked away in Earth, so avoiding the attunement is no easy task. (Water for d/d is a well designed attunement, in my opinion, because it provides everything you need to use its skills effectively and has a distinct, unique role. Thus, it is relatively easy to “save” for later use.)

Chaosky.5276:

Furthermore, the trait is pretty much designed with the idea that the player would treat the Earth attunement itself as a defensive skill, which clashes horribly with how the class is actually played. As it is, on-swap bonuses encourage cycling through attunements quickly, and you’ll often find yourself wanting certain skills that are locked away in Earth, so avoiding the attunement is no easy task.

There is some truth to this, but it’s also true that elemental attunement is a very common ele trait. Protection makes attuning to earth a logical and effective response to power damage. The difference is that stone heart will never carry into another attunement. Whether that is an issue depends on what’s going on, but the basic concept mixes well with how ele can be played. Staying in earth a few seconds longer when needed shouldn’t sound like the crazy suicidal idea some other people are making it out to be.

This next part isn’t necessarily directed at you btw.
Also, stone heart is literally meant to be just A defensive option. If you take stone heart and don’t think it will be an appropriate response for x situation, you don’t use it yet. You should still have vigor, snares, soft/hard cc and a defensive utility to fall back on. Your every action in combat does not revolve around making constant use of a grandmaster trait. Going 30 water and 30 arcana doesn’t mean you attune to water and dodge literally every chance you get. Fresh Air doesn’t mean you just try to spam electric discharge whenever air is available. Stone heart doesn’t mean you sit in earth for prolonged periods of time or make it your default reaction to being looked at.

My main concern still remains though: will we get balance through generic traits, or through traits specifically designed to combat 1 specific type of build? Because to me, the latter isn’t balance. Just lucky that you brought the right spec.

Tei.1704:

There is some truth to this, but it’s also true that elemental attunement is a very common ele trait. Protection makes attuning to earth a logical and effective response to power damage. The difference is that stone heart will never carry into another attunement. Whether that is an issue depends on what’s going on, but the basic concept mixes well with how ele can be played. Staying in earth a few seconds longer when needed shouldn’t sound like the crazy suicidal idea some other people are making it out to be.

What I’m getting at is that if I want Protection and CC, I’m going to be switching to Earth, which means that there are going to be plenty of times when the attunement simply isn’t available to mitigate critical burst damage. Therefore, if I want to be sure to have access to it when I need it, I’ll have to restrict myself to Air and Fire, which is rather less than optimal.

I don’t take Elemental Attunement so I can switch to Earth to gain Protection in order to avoid incoming burst damage, because I can’t rely on having access to the attunement (although it’s nice when it does work out, and I’d much prefer it if I could activate the trait as I would a utility skill) – rather, I take it because the Protection and Regeneration act as general damage mitigation. This is why I take issue with the concept of Stone Heart, and why I say that it simply doesn’t mesh with how the class is played.

How are people supposed to play Elementalist? It seems that playing Dagger/Dagger has degenerated the minds of Dagger/Dagger exclusive players into a gameplay wherein they switch attunements just to spam all available skills.

Chastein.9874:

How are people supposed to play Elementalist? It seems that playing Dagger/Dagger has degenerated the minds of Dagger/Dagger exclusive players into a gameplay wherein they switch attunements just to spam all available skills.

that! and also to only dodge to get water ea while facetanking 4k hits a sec later cause they are out of endurance.
The majority of d/d i see its the same even in videos people post ..rtl-updraft,shock aura,burning speed firegrab,ring of fire,earthqueke ,(magnetic grasp),ring of earth,dodge in earth for might ,frozen burst ,cone of cold,healing wave -> repeat or auto in air till cds to repeat
If they get to tank a big burst with prot and frost aura,or if they get to interrupt something with updraft/earthquake or chill someone out of important cds or block important projectiles with ring of earth ..its entirely random !:D

Chastein.9874:

How are people supposed to play Elementalist? It seems that playing Dagger/Dagger has degenerated the minds of Dagger/Dagger exclusive players into a gameplay wherein they switch attunements just to spam all available skills.

Pretty much this! I mean lightning whip is a strong pressure auto attack that you should be using that gives you time for attunements to be off cooldown.

D/D is all about bursting in the few seconds you manage to CC your target hoping you won t be kited because your weapon defining skill to avoid that (RTL) was nerfed to Death….(also stacking might combos in the process)

LordByron.8369:

lightning flash + magnetic grasp is the only thing that keeps ele working (with a huge risk and lot of effort).

Also earthquake + LF

At least for me….
WIthout it as i said i would be kited forever.

You will get better and realise that the ele is versatile beast and that lf + e5,etc were all basic playstyles.

For more effective damage hit (assuming you have 10air fury trait) , go f2, f1,f5 then a3,a5 then e3,e5, LF, w4,w2,w3 and if need be, w5, then dodge and f2 f4, a4,a2 , immobolise,f4, dodge reverse while pressing E , and then e3 twice, A2,a1,a1,a1 …etc

Lightning flash is not there in the hopeless situation my opponent won t evade E5.
If you read it it says magnetic grasp not churning earth…..

Is to ensure i can slow them getting in range for E3 when they start to flee and the DD ele crippled by nerfs is looking at the horizon his opponent fleeing..

(or i admit it even LF+Air5 that is really hard to dodge but i could live without it).

LordByron.8369:

Lightning flash is not there in the hopeless situation my opponent won t evade E5.
If you read it it says magnetic grasp not churning earth…..

Is to ensure i can slow them getting in range for E3 when they start to flee and the DD ele crippled by nerfs is looking at the horizon his opponent fleeing..

(or i admit it even LF+Air5 that is really hard to dodge but i could live without it).

If your enemy is getting out of range hit the FGS elite and chase the enemy down by causing him to be in combat and then spamming SoE , drop the FGS, hit A4 a5 then f3 f5. That can work 70% of the time.

I do miss the old RTL days though.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Amulet? I am talking WvW. Who cares about S/TPvP. Its a terrible game mode. Which is also the reason why this game is SO unbalanced.

WHAT?
Blaming WvW imbalances to PvP was the most hilarious post I’ve ever seen in this forum from ages.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

As i have said – i have played with BOTH characters as condition builds and not taken either Burning trait. Sure, it will take longer – does not taking it really decide who will win and who will lose? No.

Remove burning from necros and you’ll wipe away almost half of its DPS.
Again, if you want a trait to carry you and to make yourself an invulnerable god, then I think you should change game. Perhaps, try some singleplayer games.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Slow? Like all Necromancer attacks stack conditions. Even Auto attack Scepter stacks 2 different conditions every 1.5seconds. Then you have the Spite signet and PLENTY of other access to conditions. They DON’T need Burning, they did just fine before it was introduced the only reason some take it is because of the nerfs they got because of it so it kind of seems a loss if they don’t. That doesn’t mean it is a defeat if they don’t take it.

You have Ether Renewal to counter Signet of Spite.
Also, if you let the Necromancer stack conditions on you by autoattacking, then you’re putting no pressure at all on him while you’re doing absolutely nothing to avoid the conditions being stacked on you.
In that case, I think you deserve to just die because you’re pretty much standing still doing nothing.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

You mean Signet of Restoration – i have over 800Helaing Power. It heals for not even 300 per a cast and remember the signet becomes weaker with certain weapons as well. Now, if only these condition classes didnt have easy access to Poison as well as the MANY other conditions…Oh wait. They do.

SoR makes sense only on S/x fresh air builds, otherwise other heals are just better. In that case, you can easily outheal the condition pressure along with poison by just doing your average DPS rotation, which includes loads of casts.
You really have no idea of how much DPS burning supplies to condition builds.

Again, Stone Heart does not makes you an invulnerable beast, but of course it helps, mainly against direct damage builds, but also against condition builds.

Ashe dude, you are SO negative, like SO SO negative.

I see your name by a post and I sigh as I just know what’s coming. This is bad, this doesn’t work, we’re so awful.

I do think ele needs some buffs in terms of hp levels and lowering cooldowns on atunements and utility timers, thieves stealth is badly designed and yes, conditions are badly designed in terms of their ability to be spammed, but really, it’s not the end of the world….

Chaosky.5276:

What I’m getting at is that if I want Protection and CC, I’m going to be switching to Earth, which means that there are going to be plenty of times when the attunement simply isn’t available to mitigate critical burst damage. Therefore, if I want to be sure to have access to it when I need it, I’ll have to restrict myself to Air and Fire, which is rather less than optimal.

I don’t take Elemental Attunement so I can switch to Earth to gain Protection in order to avoid incoming burst damage, because I can’t rely on having access to the attunement (although it’s nice when it does work out, and I’d much prefer it if I could activate the trait as I would a utility skill) – rather, I take it because the Protection and Regeneration act as general damage mitigation. This is why I take issue with the concept of Stone Heart, and why I say that it simply doesn’t mesh with how the class is played.

No defensive option will always be available every single time you need it. I don’t use protection against every backstab or shatter spike. I dodge most of those, but protection is still an option to mitigate something when it’s off cooldown. This is what I meant when I emphasized how damage mitigation from earth it is just one defensive option you have. I don’t save earth attunement just to mitigate specific attacks. Usually, the protection is just a helpful side-effect of attuning to earth, which I would do regardless of any boons it gives.

Stop saying “how the class is played.” I’m literally telling you I already attune to earth just to mitigate specific attacks on occasion, and you’re saying the class isn’t played like that. It doesn’t mesh with how you play, but stone heart will work with how I play. Don’t like the trait all you want, but it’s a fact that stone heart meshes with a playstyle some eles have developed.

sorrow.2364:

Blaming WvW imbalances to PvP was the most hilarious post I’ve ever seen in this forum from ages.

How many changes have been made to this game based around S/TPvP. The mode is dead and Anet can’t see that still thinking they can turn it into an eSport. S/TPvP IS the reason why this game has such poor balance.

sorrow.2364:

Remove burning from necros and you’ll wipe away almost half of its DPS.
Again, if you want a trait to carry you and to make yourself an invulnerable god, then I think you should change game. Perhaps, try some singleplayer games.

Yeah. That is wrong. I have NEVER used Dhuumfire on my Condi Necro. Never have and never will. Burning being half its DPS lol. Sure its a decent bit, 50% not a chance. As i have said, they have plenty of other conditions that are just as much a threat.

sorrow.2364:

You have Ether Renewal to counter Signet of Spite.
Also, if you let the Necromancer stack conditions on you by autoattacking, then you’re putting no pressure at all on him while you’re doing absolutely nothing to avoid the conditions being stacked on you.
In that case, I think you deserve to just die because you’re pretty much standing still doing nothing.

Ah, you are talking about specific scenarios where you KNOW you will be fighting a specific build type. That doesn’t happen in WvW. I have gone DAYS without even seeing some classes. That is just how it is. Sure if you are dueling or something and KNOW what will happen, then yeah that could be viable. Long channel time and easily interrupted but yeah its possible.

sorrow.2364:

SoR makes sense only on S/x fresh air builds, otherwise other heals are just better. In that case, you can easily outheal the condition pressure along with poison by just doing your average DPS rotation, which includes loads of casts.
You really have no idea of how much DPS burning supplies to condition builds.

So it makes more sense on a weapon that has long cast times of its skills and the fact it doesnt proc on channel skills more than once. You think its BETTER on Scepter than on dagger that has 3/4second cast time auto attacks? O.o

sorrow.2364:

Again, Stone Heart does not makes you an invulnerable beast, but of course it helps, mainly against direct damage builds, but also against condition builds.

Barely against Condition builds. even without Burning both Engineer and Necromancer have the conditions to kill you. Even Warrior and Thief have builds that would melt you even inside on Earth with this trait.

I think it could be decent, i don’t think it will be anything that saves the class or anything. Within a week everyone will expect all eles to be running it so will just hold back when they know you are in Earth.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

How many changes have been made to this game based around S/TPvP. The mode is dead and Anet can’t see that still thinking they can turn it into an eSport. S/TPvP IS the reason why this game has such poor balance.

Of course, because most of the imbalances of WvW, like hammer trains, unkillable guardians, instagib thieves, perplexity condition builds, PU mesmers, condition duration foods are there because of sPvP.
Seriously, get real and stop hating a gamemode you don’t even have a clue about.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Yeah. That is wrong. I have NEVER used Dhuumfire on my Condi Necro. Never have and never will. Burning being half its DPS lol. Sure its a decent bit, 50% not a chance. As i have said, they have plenty of other conditions that are just as much a threat.

Burning is the most reliable source of DPS necro has, as it is unavoidable. No matter what you do, you’ll end up having it on eventually.
Bleeds alone won’t kill a thing, terror is good as burst but you can easily stunbreak out of it while the only real threat on elementalists is chill but, still, it is a single condition.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Ah, you are talking about specific scenarios where you KNOW you will be fighting a specific build type. That doesn’t happen in WvW. I have gone DAYS without even seeing some classes. That is just how it is. Sure if you are dueling or something and KNOW what will happen, then yeah that could be viable. Long channel time and easily interrupted but yeah its possible.

That’s why you should bring Rock Solid. Aren’t we under the hypothesis that we are running 30 earth?

When you fight someone, if you’re good, you should take less than 10 seconds to realize which kind of build he’s running and adapt your playstyle to it. You don’t really need a crystal ball to realize which build your enemy is running.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

So it makes more sense on a weapon that has long cast times of its skills and the fact it doesnt proc on channel skills more than once. You think its BETTER on Scepter than on dagger that has 3/4second cast time auto attacks? O.o

What?
Have you ever played a fresh air build?
Who the hell triggers SoR on D/D autoattacks when you can trigger it multiple times in a second with istant cast skills on low cooldown?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Barely against Condition builds. even without Burning both Engineer and Necromancer have the conditions to kill you. Even Warrior and Thief have builds that would melt you even inside on Earth with this trait.

I think it could be decent, i don’t think it will be anything that saves the class or anything. Within a week everyone will expect all eles to be running it so will just hold back when they know you are in Earth.

Of course they have the conditions to kill you as they are supposed to. That’s why you should cleanse them and kill them before they kill you, that’s pretty much how PvP works. Having a little help coming from Stone Heart is appreciated anyway, since it is mainly an anti-crit trait more than an anti-condition trait.

I don’t think that Cleansing Water helps you against crit builds either, but still it is considered an amazing trait and it is ran by a lot of elementalists.

Ash the burning on a condi necro and engi is huge man. It doesn’t even take much math to figure it out. Sure don’t have to use it but that’s really gimping yourself.

@1600 condition damage

Burning = 728 DPS

Poison = 240
Bleeding = 123
Torment = 91

Total= 454 DPS w/ no burning (LOL)

6 bleeds = 738 DPS

Bleeds are the only real threat you can get bleed stacks high BUT because of the fact that it is going to stack intensity it stays in the same position in queue because it is refreshed. This makes it extremely hard to cover your bleeding damage.

If the bleed is in position 5 out of 8 then the bleed will stay in position 5 until it wears off or wipes and you reapply(which means you arent doing anything on a condi necro).

You attack normally like you would and the bleed will eventually move to position 8 and there isn’t anything you can do about it. This happens rapidly that is why it is hard to kill someone with just bleeds. Even on a condi necro without burning it is going to take alot longer.

If Burning is useless on Necro, then why are there specific builds that take advantage of Dhuumfire? Free burning is also huge for Engineers since it will allow to have access to that condition while using the more defensive set of Pistol/Shield.Why do you think Burning is not a huge deal for both classes? Because you don’t even use it as you stated yourself.

Now you cry about Stone Heart? Because you obviously won’t be able to utilize it as you’re probably one of those Dagger/Dagger Eles that just swap attunements to spam available skills. If it doesn’t help you specifically means it’s useless? Grow up dude.

sorrow.2364:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

How many changes have been made to this game based around S/TPvP. The mode is dead and Anet can’t see that still thinking they can turn it into an eSport. S/TPvP IS the reason why this game has such poor balance.

Of course, because most of the imbalances of WvW, like hammer trains, unkillable guardians, instagib thieves, perplexity condition builds, PU mesmers, condition duration foods are there because of sPvP.
Seriously, get real and stop hating a gamemode you don’t even have a clue about.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Yeah. That is wrong. I have NEVER used Dhuumfire on my Condi Necro. Never have and never will. Burning being half its DPS lol. Sure its a decent bit, 50% not a chance. As i have said, they have plenty of other conditions that are just as much a threat.

Burning is the most reliable source of DPS necro has, as it is unavoidable. No matter what you do, you’ll end up having it on eventually.
Bleeds alone won’t kill a thing, terror is good as burst but you can easily stunbreak out of it while the only real threat on elementalists is chill but, still, it is a single condition.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Ah, you are talking about specific scenarios where you KNOW you will be fighting a specific build type. That doesn’t happen in WvW. I have gone DAYS without even seeing some classes. That is just how it is. Sure if you are dueling or something and KNOW what will happen, then yeah that could be viable. Long channel time and easily interrupted but yeah its possible.

That’s why you should bring Rock Solid. Aren’t we under the hypothesis that we are running 30 earth?

When you fight someone, if you’re good, you should take less than 10 seconds to realize which kind of build he’s running and adapt your playstyle to it. You don’t really need a crystal ball to realize which build your enemy is running.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

So it makes more sense on a weapon that has long cast times of its skills and the fact it doesnt proc on channel skills more than once. You think its BETTER on Scepter than on dagger that has 3/4second cast time auto attacks? O.o

What?
Have you ever played a fresh air build?
Who the hell triggers SoR on D/D autoattacks when you can trigger it multiple times in a second with istant cast skills on low cooldown?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Barely against Condition builds. even without Burning both Engineer and Necromancer have the conditions to kill you. Even Warrior and Thief have builds that would melt you even inside on Earth with this trait.

I think it could be decent, i don’t think it will be anything that saves the class or anything. Within a week everyone will expect all eles to be running it so will just hold back when they know you are in Earth.

Of course they have the conditions to kill you as they are supposed to. That’s why you should cleanse them and kill them before they kill you, that’s pretty much how PvP works. Having a little help coming from Stone Heart is appreciated anyway, since it is mainly an anti-crit trait more than an anti-condition trait.

I don’t think that Cleansing Water helps you against crit builds either, but still it is considered an amazing trait and it is ran by a lot of elementalists.

sorrow dont feed the troll. isnt that clear he has no clue and want admit that? he even plays a condi build and doesnt know the real power of burning.

but my original statements is still valid! stone heart is toxic for the game, it will shift more then now the game into condi-bunker hybridstuff.

oZii.2864:

@1600 condition damage

Burning = 728 DPS

Poison = 240
Bleeding = 123
Torment = 91

Total= 454 DPS w/ no burning (LOL)

6 bleeds = 738 DPS

Interesting, never used Burning on either so i haven’t really noticed it. I mean Flamethrower (Engi) is solid enough. Even just for the Tool skill. So never really used the trait. Taking the Might and Toughness trait for it as well, but think i am in the few that even use Flamethrower, but it just rocks on a Asura hahaha

Chastein.9874:

If Burning is useless on Necro, then why are there specific builds that take advantage of Dhuumfire? Free burning is also huge for Engineers since it will allow to have access to that condition while using the more defensive set of Pistol/Shield.Why do you think Burning is not a huge deal for both classes? Because you don’t even use it as you stated yourself.

Now you cry about Stone Heart? Because you obviously won’t be able to utilize it as you’re probably one of those Dagger/Dagger Eles that just swap attunements to spam available skills. If it doesn’t help you specifically means it’s useless? Grow up dude.

Not every Condition build uses it. Most use it because it is easy. That and the fact that They feel the need to take it after all the nerfs the class got just to get it. “Cry” How exactly am i “crying” about it? I just don’t think it will be around after its new feel has worn off, just like what happened with Diamond Skin.

It could be a decent trait, it won’t be the savior of the class though. It will just be expected for ele to be

hooma.9642:

sorrow dont feed the troll. isnt that clear he has no clue and want admit that? he even plays a condi build and doesnt know the real power of burning.

but my original statements is still valid! stone heart is toxic for the game, it will shift more then now the game into condi-bunker hybridstuff.

How can a single trait shift the metagame to condi-bunker?
Right now, the metagame is way more about burst damage than conditions, as most people are running with multiple thieves/warrior comps, while retaining only spirit ranger as condition class, mainly because of the support and elite spirit, which futher fuels the warrior’s regen making them unkillable (which anyway will get a nerf the next patch).

Elementalists were completely negated and kicked out of the meta because they had horrible defenses against burst damage profession, as a single thief can pretty much make you useless.

Giving Elementalists a trait that counters burst profession that doesn’t make them immortal as they will still be squishy like hell as soon as they switch out of earth, but just gives them a way to mitigate team focus that will surely happen as soon as the elementalist is on sight, won’t shift the meta to a condi-bunker meta at all.

Also, keep in mind that Cleansing Water is going to have removed icd (that means that an elementalist alone can keep the whole team cleansed), while Necromancer is getting a trait that constantly drains conditions from allies fueling both LF pool and an eventual consume conditions after getting out of death shroud.

Tei.1704:

No defensive option will always be available every single time you need it. I don’t use protection against every backstab or shatter spike. I dodge most of those, but protection is still an option to mitigate something when it’s off cooldown. This is what I meant when I emphasized how damage mitigation from earth it is just one defensive option you have. I don’t save earth attunement just to mitigate specific attacks. Usually, the protection is just a helpful side-effect of attuning to earth, which I would do regardless of any boons it gives.

Stop saying “how the class is played.” I’m literally telling you I already attune to earth just to mitigate specific attacks on occasion, and you’re saying the class isn’t played like that. It doesn’t mesh with how you play, but stone heart will work with how I play. Don’t like the trait all you want, but it’s a fact that stone heart meshes with a playstyle some eles have developed.

…But my build loses too much to take Stone Heart if it’s just another layer of defense. I never said that there’s no use for the trait.

I did say that I think the design is terrible, though, by which I mean: If the Elementalist is so dependent upon active defenses, why is its ability to access those defenses so poor – or at least clunky?

Compared to other classes, an ele’s skills are generally weaker and/or have longer cooldowns in an attempt to balance the greater number of them. They’re spread across four groups rather than two, meaning more swapping to use the skill you want, meaning more potential for being locked out of the skills you want due to attunement cooldowns. The class is highly reliant on healing for survival. Throw on the traits – including Stone Heart – that are tied to attunements.

When I look at all this, I see a class that professes to be designed for reactive play, but is, in fact, rather limited in this regard. Note that I am not saying that it does not work, but that it is extremely poor design for a class that is intended to be able to adapt to any situation.

sorrow.2364:

hooma.9642:

sorrow dont feed the troll. isnt that clear he has no clue and want admit that? he even plays a condi build and doesnt know the real power of burning.

but my original statements is still valid! stone heart is toxic for the game, it will shift more then now the game into condi-bunker hybridstuff.

How can a single trait shift the metagame to condi-bunker?
Right now, the metagame is way more about burst damage than conditions, as most people are running with multiple thieves/warrior comps, while retaining only spirit ranger as condition class, mainly because of the support and elite spirit, which futher fuels the warrior’s regen making them unkillable (which anyway will get a nerf the next patch).

Elementalists were completely negated and kicked out of the meta because they had horrible defenses against burst damage profession, as a single thief can pretty much make you useless.

Giving Elementalists a trait that counters burst profession that doesn’t make them immortal as they will still be squishy like hell as soon as they switch out of earth, but just gives them a way to mitigate team focus that will surely happen as soon as the elementalist is on sight, won’t shift the meta to a condi-bunker meta at all.

Also, keep in mind that Cleansing Water is going to have removed icd (that means that an elementalist alone can keep the whole team cleansed), while Necromancer is getting a trait that constantly drains conditions from allies fueling both LF pool and an eventual consume conditions after getting out of death shroud.

thiefs are already pushing other gc out of meta. besides thief and hambow ( whats not really a gc) no other gc can burst so often like thief. so stone hearts is even stronger against other gc except thiefs. 2 reasons now why other gc are unviable.

considering that thiefs are squishy and investing a lot in precision and not power, stone hearts is esp stronger against them as against a gc warrior as example,. so a bunker ele with stone hearts is even harder to kill for a powerclass then before. hambow without crits looses some pressure too. i think it will be very dangerous for a thief to try and kill a bunker ele with crit immunity during a teamfight and the low amount of condicleanses a thief has. with the crit immunity a sidepoint ele bunker against a thief will be holding out enough time until help arrives.

the next thing is. the amount of vigor and protection available, esp rewarding for bunkerbuilds, got increased. even aoe-application.

thats the points that boost bunker builds. knowing that bunkers are easier to kill with condition let more player invest into condis. the new necro trait is garbage. reason why? it has no cooldown. so yeah a necro can draw the conditions, but will at some point be overloaded and die.

on the same time we have cleansing water, what counters condition application. so the fights will even take longer than now. to many bunker builds, to strong against raw dmg and esp ele with aoe condi-cleanses.

i think the new meta will be somewhat around double ele and thief as the only gc for fast sidepoint decaps mainly. decap engi will be more viable then as now.

tl;dr:
+ vigor
+ protection
+ aoe vigor
+ aoe protection
+ aoe healing boost
=> boost to bunkerish builds
- thief nerfs
=> holding other gc out of meta
+ cleansing water
+ stone heart
=> makes ele bunker stronger against raw dmg and aoe condis
- new necro trait is garbage cause missing cooldown
- engi can easier apply aoe condi then necro
==> all viable meta builds will evolve around condi-anti condi pressure with maybe thief as only gc left.

ppl still complain about automated response, some even about diamond skin. both only have a immunity under a certain condition, that is related to enemy actions. stone heart is a immunity without conditions where the player decides when it will be activate. so its a immunity thats even stronger then the other both. alone the possibility of that immunity will be determine the teamcomps to less raw dmg.

but maybe im just total wrong there are a lot of possible teamcomps, but i think stone hearts isnt healthy. a nerf to thiefs had been healthier and maybe some more sources of weakness for gc eles and powerrangers to have a better active defense against thiefs.

all boosts to non-active defensemechanism (weakness, blind,…) ala stone heart or new arcane gm trait can also be used from bunker builds and make them even stronger. thats the problem of the gamedesign. maybe just changing the way thiefs are affected from chill had been enough boost.

i see to much boosts to non-raw-dmg builds ala bunker or condi or anti condi and miss the boost to raw-dmg outside of thief. all low cooldown or non-cooldown related builds like thief and condis will always be more viable then others.

Thief get a trait that gives them a 50% damage reduction while in stealth…they spend like 90% of a fight in stealth. Ele get a trait that stops crit hits in a a attunement you don’t want to use as much as possible.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Thief get a trait that gives them a 50% damage reduction while in stealth…they spend like 90% of a fight in stealth. Ele get a trait that stops crit hits in a a attunement you don’t want to use as much as possible.

Glass half empty

A thief 90% in stealth isn’t doing damage! Or only doing damage 10% of the time.
Thief takes that trait loses sustain no shadow rejuvenation!
How often do you think you actually hit good thieves in stealth?

oZii.2864:

Glass half empty

A thief 90% in stealth isn’t doing damage! Or only doing damage 10% of the time.
Thief takes that trait loses sustain no shadow rejuvenation!
How often do you think you actually hit good thieves in stealth?

Sure, maybe not dealing damage. Just getting into a position where they can do insane burst. While in stealth AoE damage is, well was a threat to them with this trait they will be even harder to kill. True they lose that, not all of them take it. It would all depend on how much damage they could reduce compared to the healing they would gain.

Often enough if you are at least semi decent yourself. Using Burning Speed, Ring of Fire, Cold of Cold and such can still be great against them while in stealth. Though now they would take 50% less damage.

The difference is the thief is unable to attack and maintain stealth at the same time.

Fuzzion.2504:

LordByron.8369:

Lightning flash is not there in the hopeless situation my opponent won t evade E5.
If you read it it says magnetic grasp not churning earth…..

Is to ensure i can slow them getting in range for E3 when they start to flee and the DD ele crippled by nerfs is looking at the horizon his opponent fleeing..

(or i admit it even LF+Air5 that is really hard to dodge but i could live without it).

If your enemy is getting out of range hit the FGS elite and chase the enemy down by causing him to be in combat and then spamming SoE , drop the FGS, hit A4 a5 then f3 f5. That can work 70% of the time.

I do miss the old RTL days though.

A4-A5 that is something doen t work against anyone with little experience.

Also you suggest to give up an ELITE, to catch a player that can:
-escape easily while you cast the elite.
-Kill you while you wield it because its really bad
-wait you to drop it and escape again with your elite on cooldown for minutes

I play www on daily basis…i tried almost anything…only thing that lets me win duels is DPS.

Because nerfing RTL means you can t no longer stay in fight…same thing Worth for any ele trying to follow me….its really easy to escape an elementalist….

Even with same skills a player fleeying can RTL/magnetic pull on ambients..
While the chaser can t.

hooma.9642:

thiefs are already pushing other gc out of meta. besides thief and hambow ( whats not really a gc) no other gc can burst so often like thief. so stone hearts is even stronger against other gc except thiefs. 2 reasons now why other gc are unviable.

considering that thiefs are squishy and investing a lot in precision and not power, […]

Well, that was the sole purpose of a bunker, right?
Also, are we talking about a 30 earth + 30 water/arcana build? Because in that case, it is completely comparable to a bunker guardian, which is something you can’t afford to have two in a team because of the lack of damage.
If we are considering another kind of build, then it will eventually die because it lacks the sustain needed to heal back from the hits.

A bunker ele finally being able to hold a node is not a bad news imho.

hooma.9642:

the next thing is. the amount of vigor and protection available, esp rewarding for bunkerbuilds, got increased. even aoe-application.

Vigor was nerfed on both guardian and mesmer.
The protecion uptime was not buffed at all. I can’t see which change you’re referring to.

hooma.9642:

thats the points that boost bunker builds. knowing that bunkers are easier to kill with condition let more player invest into condis. the new necro trait is garbage. reason why? it has no cooldown. so yeah a necro can draw the conditions, but will at some point be overloaded and die.

That’s not the case.
The conditions drawed from Necro are just fueling the consume conditions he’s going to cast as soon as he gets out of the deathshroud (condition drawing only happens in deathshroud, while also fueling the LF pool).

hooma.9642:

on the same time we have cleansing water, what counters condition application. so the fights will even take longer than now. to many bunker builds, to strong against raw dmg and esp ele with aoe condi-cleanses.

i think the new meta will be somewhat around double ele and thief as the only gc for fast sidepoint decaps mainly. decap engi will be more viable then as now.

Decap might be more viable than it is now. Hell, it is already everywhere, but I don’t see dual bunker ele being meta.
Two bunker ele will be pretty much like running two bunker guardians: not a good idea because of the lack of damage.

hooma.9642:

ppl still complain about automated response, some even about diamond skin. both only have a immunity under a certain condition, that is related to enemy actions. stone heart is a immunity without conditions where the player decides when it will be activate. so its a immunity thats even stronger then the other both. alone the possibility of that immunity will be determine the teamcomps to less raw dmg.

It is not an immunity, it is just damage mitigation. You still take damage, but you only take less damage as you should. That works pretty much like protection but a little bit stronger, still I don’t see protection making elementalists immortal to thieves.

AR and DS, on the other hand, are complete immunity against damage output of some builds. Sure they have situations in which they work, but AR in particular has an extremely comfortable situation when it triggers.

hooma.9642:

but maybe im just total wrong there are a lot of possible teamcomps, but i think stone hearts isnt healthy. a nerf to thiefs had been healthier and maybe some more sources of weakness for gc eles and powerrangers to have a better active defense against thiefs.
[…].

A nerf to thieves surely would have been more healthy, but it doesn’t changes that Elementalists will still be extremely squishy to any glass cannon or burst build around.

Yeah, I still see some pure glass canon builds being still confined out of meta because of thieves (like GC mesmers or rangers), but it is a first step towards balance since they are kicking in the meta another viable option and a profession that has been forgotten for well over half a year.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Thief get a trait that gives them a 50% damage reduction while in stealth…they spend like 90% of a fight in stealth. Ele get a trait that stops crit hits in a a attunement you don’t want to use as much as possible.

The only situation in which I see an use for this trait is for stealth ressing.

Other than that, it isn’t that good since you still have to expose yourself to deal damage and, unless you aren’t able to one-shot your enemy, you will always expose yourself to futher hit him.

sorrow.2364:

hooma.9642:

thiefs are already pushing other gc out of meta. besides thief and hambow ( whats not really a gc) no other gc can burst so often like thief. so stone hearts is even stronger against other gc except thiefs. 2 reasons now why other gc are unviable.

considering that thiefs are squishy and investing a lot in precision and not power, […]

Well, that was the sole purpose of a bunker, right?
Also, are we talking about a 30 earth + 30 water/arcana build? Because in that case, it is completely comparable to a bunker guardian, which is something you can’t afford to have two in a team because of the lack of damage.
If we are considering another kind of build, then it will eventually die because it lacks the sustain needed to heal back from the hits.

A bunker ele finally being able to hold a node is not a bad news imho.

hooma.9642:

the next thing is. the amount of vigor and protection available, esp rewarding for bunkerbuilds, got increased. even aoe-application.

Vigor was nerfed on both guardian and mesmer.
The protecion uptime was not buffed at all. I can’t see which change you’re referring to.

hooma.9642:

thats the points that boost bunker builds. knowing that bunkers are easier to kill with condition let more player invest into condis. the new necro trait is garbage. reason why? it has no cooldown. so yeah a necro can draw the conditions, but will at some point be overloaded and die.

That’s not the case.
The conditions drawed from Necro are just fueling the consume conditions he’s going to cast as soon as he gets out of the deathshroud (condition drawing only happens in deathshroud, while also fueling the LF pool).

hooma.9642:

on the same time we have cleansing water, what counters condition application. so the fights will even take longer than now. to many bunker builds, to strong against raw dmg and esp ele with aoe condi-cleanses.

i think the new meta will be somewhat around double ele and thief as the only gc for fast sidepoint decaps mainly. decap engi will be more viable then as now.

Decap might be more viable than it is now. Hell, it is already everywhere, but I don’t see dual bunker ele being meta.
Two bunker ele will be pretty much like running two bunker guardians: not a good idea because of the lack of damage.

hooma.9642:

ppl still complain about automated response, some even about diamond skin. both only have a immunity under a certain condition, that is related to enemy actions. stone heart is a immunity without conditions where the player decides when it will be activate. so its a immunity thats even stronger then the other both. alone the possibility of that immunity will be determine the teamcomps to less raw dmg.

It is not an immunity, it is just damage mitigation. You still take damage, but you only take less damage as you should. That works pretty much like protection but a little bit stronger, still I don’t see protection making elementalists immortal to thieves.

AR and DS, on the other hand, are complete immunity against damage output of some builds. Sure they have situations in which they work, but AR in particular has an extremely comfortable situation when it triggers.

hooma.9642:

but maybe im just total wrong there are a lot of possible teamcomps, but i think stone hearts isnt healthy. a nerf to thiefs had been healthier and maybe some more sources of weakness for gc eles and powerrangers to have a better active defense against thiefs.
[…].

A nerf to thieves surely would have been more healthy, but it doesn’t changes that Elementalists will still be extremely squishy to any glass cannon or burst build around.

Yeah, I still see some pure glass canon builds being still confined out of meta because of thieves (like GC mesmers or rangers), but it is a first step towards balance since they are kicking in the meta another viable option and a profession that has been forgotten for well over half a year.

yeah vigor nerfed on guardian and mesmer. but on the same time introduced new sources of vigor and protection.

its more then just a simple dmg mitigation. at lot is related to critical hits. consume conditions only work for condi-types not amount.