Guild Wars 2

OP or Annoying Stuff

Certain Skills and combinations with engi really annoy me. I hate losing or having a difficult time killing engis that are just doing stupid stuff that are way easier to run than what I run. Not all of this is OP. Not all of this is even viable in high level PvP (at least to most). Instead, this is about counterplay and creating skillful builds with little cheese.

1. Turret Placement – Turrets themselves are extremely passive, easy to place, easy to overcharge and can sometimes be difficult to kill (especially if placed even moderately well). There is little risk of a turret placement being interrupted. This feels really backwards to me. Turrets are kind of like setting up a fort.
   1. Increase the placement time of turrets to 1s. Yes, this includes healing turret. Remember that for a 1/2s cast time, you are getting a knockback, a reflect, a passive boon, some damage and some overcharge ability. The heal removes 2 condis from EVERYONE in a huge radius, heals and is a blast finisher + water field. I think this warrants the ability to stop this from occuring. If the turrets are already down before you get there, you are being a risky (as you are putting all your cards on that location), yet possibly smart turret engi. If you are setting up once the person gets there, it should be risky as well. With Healing Turret going to 1s, engis would have to be smart about their healing skill usage. I think they have plenty of ways to do this (CC, Line of Sight, Blinds). Not to mention engis already have a lot of passive abilities to keep them alive (Protection Injection, Stabilized Armor etc). I realize 1s cast time on healing turret is a dangerous game to play for engis, but it might make them a bit more skillful.
2. Shrapnel + Incendiary Powder + Steel Packed Powder + Doom Sigil – This is just BS. If someone hits you with freeze grenade, it’s totally possible that you’ll get five conditions on you (Bleeding, Burning, Poison, Vulnerability and Chilled). That’s way too many conditions for every grenade to possibly cause. Its even annoying with just pistols, as now an auto attack can hit for way more conditions than they are suppose to. It may feel like the issue is grenades or pistols, but in reality these are the real culprits.
   1. Tie shrapnel to Grenade Barrage and Big Ol Bomb. Condi engis never use Grenade Barrage, so it’d be nice if there was a good reason to use it. Big Ol Bomb = 4 stacks of bleed, grenade barrage = short duration bleed per nade that hits (like 1-2s?)
   2. Tie Incendiary Powder to Grenade Barrage and Big Ol Bomb. 5s of burning with Big Ol Bomb, 1s of burning with Grenade Barrage (Maybe give it an ICD on GB so that you don’t get 8s of burning)
   3. I have no idea what to do with doom sigil.
   4. SPP is actually fine, it’s just kinda scary to see 5 conditions at once.
3. Transmute – I can’t tell you how many time I and other engis have been randomly saved from important conditions like fear, immobilized or w/e. I hate when this saves me. It feels like I cheated.
   1. Tie this to the healing skill so it transmutes one condition into a boon. Might make Elixir H a bit more worth taking!
4. Static Discharge – Is the build itself OP? No. But the fact that someone who I just CCed can possibly spike me for upwards of 7.5k is kinda stupid (Fire 1.5k, Air 1.5k, SD 1.5k, Surprise Shot 1.5k, Analyze SD 1.5k = 7.5k). I never play more carefully than when I face SD. I’m literally counting in my head from the last time they used surprise shot to PRAY that I dodge that instant thing. I have to keep a huge amount of distance just so there’s actually something to dodge. On his end, he hits a button because it was up.
   1. Surprise Shot and Analyze should get cast times. 1/4th is enough so you can’t hit me while CCed. This is especially needed when Analyze gets buffed to cause, what was it, 8s of revealed? Maybe some vulnerability and 1.0 for the damage? There should also be QOL on this skill to make it so instead of firing the static discharge towards you camera facing with targetless skills, to instead fire it straight ahead. I highly doubt any engis are no scoping with this xD. This does mean that certain abilities will still be instant and could technically hit me, but it would be more of a skill shot and it isn’t as strong as surprise shot.

Sadly UP Stuff

1. Packaged Stimulants – It’s way to hard to try and pick these up or throw these at your allies.
   1. Make this have the effects of med kit skills effect things in an AoE! Decrease the effects if necessary.
2. Elixir H – All other elixirs have had randomness essentially removed by providing guaranteed effects. Why is this still in the dark ages?
   1. Gives 5s of protection and 9s of swiftness. Randomly gives 1 stack of might, regeneration or retaliation.

Regarding the first two points, you’re putting a lot of traits and sigils together and commenting that their effect together ends up being strong. Well, yeah, that’s the point of using them, i would say.
If they were to balance taking in account only the best case, we would end up having skills that are balanced when taking all the traits and utter crap when they aren’t traited (and grenades are a prime example of that, as they’re balanced over the traited kit…and the untraited one ends up being so bad that no one ever uses it).
It is like saying that warriors’ shouts should be balanced over their healing (due to traits) and condition removals (via runes). A total nonsense.

Manuhell.2759:

Regarding the first two points, you’re putting a lot of traits and sigils together and commenting that their effect together ends up being strong. Well, yeah, that’s the point of using them, i would say.
If they were to balance taking in account only the best case, we would end up having skills that are balanced when taking all the traits and utter crap when they aren’t traited (and grenades are a prime example of that, as they’re balanced over the traited kit…and the untraited one ends up being so bad that no one ever uses it).
It is like saying that warriors’ shouts should be balanced over their healing (due to traits) and condition removals (via runes). A total nonsense.

Except the effect of Shouts Healing isn’t OP in the slightest. It’s also not offensive and it’s on a class that doesn’t have a lot of burst healing. These are effects that are passively added to grenades, are random and can really load someone up.

The thing about traits is that you have to balance from both sides. The untraited versions should be strong on their own merit, yes, but traiting them shouldn’t make them crazy. You have to balance them from both ends. So yes, they should nerf all of those condition applying auto stuff because it’s extremely hard to play against it. The super easy to hit skills now hit super hard because of those traits.

It being strong is only part of the point. The main point is that these traits and skills have almost no counterplay. I moved it to Grenade Barrage and Big Ol Bomb because that makes them skill shots, rather than something that can be applied with an auto attack.

relfect nades OMG

runout of turrets OMG

transmute is just OK.

SD. Watch OUT! mass cc, blind. reflect OMG.

sadly up stuff – Y, itneresting ideas.

Hvaran.6327:

relfect nades OMG

runout of turrets OMG

transmute is just OK.

SD. Watch OUT! mass cc, blind. reflect OMG.

sadly up stuff – Y, itneresting ideas.

…What?

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Certain Skills and combinations with engi really annoy me. I hate losing or having a difficult time killing engis that are just doing stupid stuff that are way easier to run than what I run. Not all of this is OP. Not all of this is even viable in high level PvP (at least to most). Instead, this is about counterplay and creating skillful builds with little cheese.

Just asking if I understand this correctly… you want to apply major nerfs to a class and even its balanced/unviable builds because you are under the impression that you are loosing to worse players and/or simply don’t like how some skills function?

There are unfun and “skillless” skills and traits for every class, plus runes and sigils which aren’t good for a pure skill-based environment, but unless you’re getting rid of it all at once slowly gimping one profession after another will just result into poor balance states that won’t be any more fun than what we have got now (unless you’d enjoy being the latest one brought to the ground). Realistically, ANet would have to change so much about/in this game that they simply aren’t going to do it.
Nothing against your will to get rid of “toxic” skills and mechanics, but not at the cost of balance which will probably take years to recover.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Except the effect of Shouts Healing isn’t OP in the slightest. It’s also not offensive and it’s on a class that doesn’t have a lot of burst healing.

The effects on turrets aren’t offensive as well – apart from the knockback – and yet you still bumped all of them together to make your point. Heh, that’s almost an entire build focusing just on turrets – 2 grandmaster traits and at least an adept one. I would be disappointed if they didn’t end up being strong enough, considering all the investment required.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

These are effects that are passively added to grenades, are random and can really load someone up. The thing about traits is that you have to balance from both sides. The untraited versions should be strong on their own merit, yes, but traiting them shouldn’t make them crazy. You have to balance them from both ends. So yes, they should nerf all of those condition applying auto stuff because it’s extremely hard to play against it. The super easy to hit skills now hit super hard because of those traits.

It being strong is only part of the point. The main point is that these traits and skills have almost no counterplay. I moved it to Grenade Barrage and Big Ol Bomb because that makes them skill shots, rather than something that can be applied with an auto attack.

First, i have to disagree about the base balancing – traits shouldn’t be needed to make something average from subpar. If some skill is underpowered by design, then there is a problem with the design.

Also, i think you’re wrong in assuming that such traits necessarily have to have a sort of counterplay.
A trait like shrapnel is a mean to raise sustained damage by applying relatively frequent applications of a low-damage condition like bleeding. And giving some synergy with other traits.
If it weren’t for the synergy, it could have been applied as a straight damage increase on grenades or bombs…and no one would have cared about it. Exactly as no one cares about the other damage increasing traits. Because their effects aren’t as noticeable as a condition that you can clearly see on screen.
Incendiary powder isn’t much different in that regard, apart from having more means of application (and thus i can’t understand why you limited its use with those two specific toolbelts in your post). It is just more focused, dealing more damage on a single target. Sure, a clear visual indication would be fair, but apart from that, i think it is perfectly fine as it is.

Perhaps it would help if you actually played other professions. Your complaint about the amount of conditions that can be applied in one skill with the right traits, runes, and sigils, is a sure sign that you do not have the scope of knowledge or experience of the other professions, and the game as a whole, to breach the subject.

Transmute is a 15s cool down version of a trait every profession in the game has that is on a 10s cool down. Theirs just removes it, ours converts it. Ours also has a 50% longer cool down. Your complaint here seems very irrational to me.

Packaged stimulants and elixir H are both changing in the update next Tuesday. They released a video explaining how they will change. To me it seems very poorly thought out and unreasonable to complain about skills that are already changing.

For me, personally, I felt your statements as a whole, display a very limited comprehension of the profession and its goals, as well as its thematic concepts. Perhaps some experience with this profession, and perhaps some others would do you good.

Elixir H change? How?

I think a lot of the posts here are quite knee jerk, to be honest. Sadly, the original post itself contains some hyperbole and it does not help matters.

Let’s begin with the first point:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Turret Placement – Turrets themselves are extremely passive, easy to place, easy to overcharge and can sometimes be difficult to kill (especially if placed even moderately well). There is little risk of a turret placement being interrupted. This feels really backwards to me. Turrets are kind of like setting up a fort.

About the only thing “unfair” about Healing Turret is that its two-stage activation mitigates a lot of the risk an ordinary 0.75 cast or 1 cast heal has. At 0.5 sec cast it is difficult to interrupt, to be sure. Given that the majority of fight outcomes revolve around the interruption or poisoning of the heal barring stunlock or focus fire, a half-cast heal is a pretty big deal, and it’s why HT is meta over Med Kit and Elixir H; both of which have longer activation times.

Having said that, HT isn’t “passive” or “difficult to kill”. I recognise that I’m being pedantic here, but HT is one of the more active heals in the game, requiring a higher skill floor as players can choose whether to detonate for that extra 1k or not at the cost of 5 seconds longer CD. Conflating the other “passive” turrets like Rocket or Flame or Thumper Turret with HT is hardly fair.

The design of HT is fine. As for increasing the skill floor, keep Overcharge activation off player GCD; but increase the placement cast time to 0.75 as it is with other Water Field heals like Healing Spring of Ranger; and call it good. It’s otherwise a really well designed skill.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Increase the placement time of turrets to 1s. Yes, this includes healing turret. Remember that for a 1/2s cast time, you are getting a knockback, a reflect, a passive boon, some damage and some overcharge ability. The heal removes 2 condis from EVERYONE in a huge radius, heals and is a blast finisher + water field.

There’s quite some conflation going on here. For one, you presume a full Turret bunker build (Accelerant packed turrets, Fortified Turrets, Experimental Turrets) which is:

• Not meta in PVP unless you’re talking about hotjoin or low-level soloqueue
• In itself a 1v1 spec, which Anet refuses to balance around (PU, permastealth Thief) as they have little impact in the PVP gametypes due to extant shortcomings
• You presume that activation time of Turrets should be globally 1 second, which is balance-wise, inflexible. After all, Elixirs can get different activation times, as can Signets, or Survivals, or Glyphs, or any other class of utility – based on their strength vs cast time.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I think this warrants the ability to stop this from occuring. If the turrets are already down before you get there, you are being a risky (as you are putting all your cards on that location), yet possibly smart turret engi. If you are setting up once the person gets there, it should be risky as well. With Healing Turret going to 1s, engis would have to be smart about their healing skill usage.

Full Turret bunker engi already places all their turrets down around point when bunkering with the exception of Healing Turret. Yet the majority of player complaints centre around the stunlock combo of Overcharged Rocket Turret with Overcharged Net Turret and Rifle skills – 2 out of 3 of which can be nullified by AOE if the Engineer simply places them close together.

In PvP, and I presume we’re talking PvP here because Turret engineers suck in WvW (no mobility) and PvE (mob cleave, no mobility); Turret bunkers would beeline for close point to set up and have little contribution to Mid or Far fights due to their Build’s 1v1 nature. The only class that could potentially reach close point by the time Turret engineer gets there is Thief, burning Steal, Shadow steps, and most of their Ini on Shortbow skills. And Thief puts Turret Engi in the dumpster due to no stunbreaks and easy engagements without risk of being fired upon by Turrets. So:

• Which part of those plays were “smart” by the Engineer, holding on to their Turrets until the Thief arrives without setting up? Is that “risky” play, or just being dumb?
• If an Engineer sets up by the time any other class gets there (and we are presuming non-Thief classes that push Far, with low Stability Uptime so the Stunlock is possible i.e. D/D Ele, non-stance Warrior (a truly rare beast), Ranger, Mesmer – which should be the case, then Engineer has a favourable matchup. Is that truly “risky” for the Engineer?

healing turret provides a boon without experimental turrets… its only a 3 sec regen but he didnt say 2 boons.

I pretty much have to disagree with everything.

Except:

Yes Grenade Kit is still one of the stronger Kits, and yes passive Procs are toxic to this game.
And that Packaged Stimulant & Elixir H could use a buff/attention.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I think they have plenty of ways to do this (CC, Line of Sight, Blinds). Not to mention engis already have a lot of passive abilities to keep them alive (Protection Injection, Stabilized Armor etc). I realize 1s cast time on healing turret is a dangerous game to play for engis, but it might make them a bit more skillful.

There’s quite some conflation here of Turret Engineer builds with meta builds (although no meta builds run Stabilised Armour because Inventions is trash) which confuses the issue.

I think it’s also noteworthy to remember previous heals that were 1 second cast time (without special mechanics like Block i.e. Shelter) that were (not) used because their cast time was too long to be viable:*

• Engineer A.E.D: 1 second cast time on a reactive heal was trash. 0.75 cast is good, and removing damaging conditions post September patch is also good, but no-one took it before at 1 second.
• Elixir H: 1 second cast time, limited utility without traiting. Not taken over HT. I wonder why?
• Bandage self: Taken only in Static Discharge builds for 15 tools reset and Fury on Med Kit 5. Not meta. I wonder why?

• Elementalist Arcane Brilliance: Not taken at 1 second cast.
• Glyph of Harmony: Not taken at 1.5 second cast. Now with Signet of Restoration, not taken anyway.

• Warrior Mending: Not taken even in days of Condi meta post Dhuumfire. I wonder why?
• Healing Surge: Post Adrenaline nerf, who will take it?
• Defiant Stance: Not taken at 1 second cast. I wonder why?

Anyway, I’m belabouring the point in that 1 second cast time for Healing Turret doesn’t somehow make our other heals (Med Kit, AED, Elixir H) any less problematic. Nor does it somehow make Turret Bunker builds any less strong; because the problem of Turret Bunker does not lie within the heal. It lies within Rocket and Net Turret’s CC Combo; and within APT; and APT is getting nerfed by 50%.

Onto something more constructive:
I’ve been calling for a Turret re-work for a long time and I feel that the current design as it stands has several flaws; being that:

• Turret play is quite passive (I concur with you) in that it relies upon kiting people around Turrets, letting them do most of the work.
• This leads to the design problem of Turrets being potentially OP if too strong on their own (and in 1v1, Turrets are OP presuming no summons)
• It also leads to Turrets being useless as soon as more than 1 target presents itself.
• With little player control over the Turrets, passive play is enforced

So with that in mind, I have a few ideas to make Turrets more active:

• Turrets no longer autoattack. Instead, Turret placement chains into:
  • Rifle Turret: Turret Shot – Fires a shot at your current target (CD: 3 seconds)
  • Net Turret: Net Shot – Fires an immobilising Net at your current target (CD: 10 seconds)
  • Thumper Turret: Thump – Thumps the area, dealing damage in an area (CD: 3 seconds)
  • Flame Turret: Flame Burst – Fires a gout of flame, burning your target (CD: 3 seconds)
  • Rocket Turret: Rocket launch – Fires a rocket at your target (CD: 4 seconds)
  • Healing Turret: Cleansing Burst – Heal in an area, producing a Water Field and cleansing 2 conditions (CD: 15 seconds)

This implementation allows players full control over who and when their Turrets fire.

Overcharge skills are then moved to the F1-F4 skills, that then chain into Turret Detonate. Overcharge skills over-ride the Turret’s current Skill queue to afford players the full control over when OC skills trigger.

As a downside, Overcharging the Turret will now force the Turret to self destruct after the Overcharge sequence is over. Picking up an Overcharged Turret will give you a Cooldown reduction for placement.

This change in mechanics:

• Decreases Turret uptime when Overcharged, which is the stickler in 1v1s vs Turret Engi
• Affords Turret engi full control over their damage which improves 1vX scenarios

If Turret skills were then telegraphed by the player; as in:

• A voice quote i.e. “Net Turret, Fire!”
• Or by the Turret’s “clicking” noises presaging fire as they are now, then the spec overall becomes more telegraphed, better co-ordinated, and more active.

I agree some skills needs much more recognizable telegraphs and sounds.

Nano.3706:

Elixir H change? How?

MonMalthias.4763:

• Engineer A.E.D: Silly risk reward skill that doesn’t reward you well. .75 cast isn’t why its not taken.
• Elixir H: Requires heavy trait support to be okay, pretty long cooldown for so little of an effect. Random boons, none are guaranteed.
• Bandage self: No access to immob removal and only 1 condition removed.

Not to mention Healing Turret blows all of these out of the water, even with a 1s cast time.

• Elementalist Arcane Brilliance: This is taken in staff builds.
• Glyph of Harmony: This is an awful skill. Horrible boons.

People take Ether Renewal. That’s a 3s-ish cast time. Why? Because the effect is really really strong.

• Warrior Mending: Because Healing Signet is beyond strong and Cleansing Ire does this better. Back then it wasn’t taken because warriors weren’t taken. Once they started to be, they had so much condi removal it become unnecessary, especially at that recharge and healing amount.
• Healing Surge: I expect some actually. It’s a fairly strong skill, it’s just that healing signet is meta and WAY easier to run in a tanky build.
• Defiant Stance: Its a heavy risk reward skill that could heal you for almost nothing if you play against smart players.

Having said that, HT isn’t “passive” or “difficult to kill”.

Clearly I’m not talking about Healing Turret when I refer to a turret build >_<. It’s a healing skill. I agree that it’s a very good skill, but it’s kinda stupid that you can’t reliable interrupt it without getting deep into the mind of the engineer you’re facing.

There’s quite some conflation going on here. For one, you presume a full Turret bunker build (Accelerant packed turrets, Fortified Turrets, Experimental Turrets) which is:

• Not meta in PVP unless you’re talking about hotjoin or low-level soloqueue
• In itself a 1v1 spec, which Anet refuses to balance around (PU, permastealth Thief) as they have little impact in the PVP gametypes due to extant shortcomings
• You presume that activation time of Turrets should be globally 1 second, which is balance-wise, inflexible. After all, Elixirs can get different activation times, as can Signets, or Survivals, or Glyphs, or any other class of utility – based on their strength vs cast time.

If they’re running some crap turret build that doesn’t have reflect, they’re easy to kill anyways. Their turrets die on activation and there’s basically no issue. The Fortified Turrets version is not just a 1v1 spec. It can actually do teamfights pretty well with their ability to launch 2-3 times in a fight, put up some major boons and a lot of reflects. Especially turret engis who dare to take a kit (blasphemy). Saying something is inflexible doesn’t mean it’s wrong. I see no reason to make any of the turrets less than 1s cast time besides MAYBE healing turret.

The only class that could potentially reach close point by the time Turret engineer gets there is Thief, burning Steal, Shadow steps, and most of their Ini on Shortbow skills. And Thief puts Turret Engi in the dumpster due to no stunbreaks and easy engagements without risk of being fired upon by Turrets.

A thief doesn’t NOT have a good matchup against a turret engi. Clusterbomb takes forever to kill turrets with those traits on, especially with reflects. Meanwhile, they do enough damage to pressure the thief to stay out of melee, especially when the engineer is using rifle to keep the thief away. Bad turret engis run 3 utility turrets. Good ones run a kit such as Tool Kit, Bomb Kit or Elixir Gun.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Yur nub, play other classes, other classes are OP too.

Well of course! This is just nerfing Engineer. Any balancing of one class requires others to be balanced too. Unfortunately, I don’t feel like writing an entire giant manifesto about this game, especially about some classes that I barely know (Guardian, Ranger). I could tell you all the BS that goes on with Thief, Mesmer, Warrior or w/e else, but I’m in the engineer forums. And Engineer is my main class. Yeah, other classes have automatic removal of conditions, but if I was to write this for those classes I’d probably tie those to something as well. They have the potential to cause a skillless survival of a bad player by removing important conditions randomly.

Packaged stimulants and elixir H are both changing in the update next Tuesday.

Med Kit is changing slightly. Packaged Stimulants and Elixir H are not changing.

Manuhell.2759:

First, i have to disagree about the base balancing…

That’s what I was saying. Skills should be strong as a start, and mixed up and stronger when traited. Balancing from both ends means that you close the gap between the traited and untraited versions in their effective power.

Sure, a clear visual indication would be fair, but apart from that, i think it is perfectly fine as it is.

Incendiary Powder is very strong and very hard to play against. As I said in my previous post, it’s not about skills being OP. SD isn’t OP. But it’s not fun to play against because it’s instant, nigh unavoidable damage without using extremely advanced tactics. It’s not about nerfing OP stuff, it’s about making the application of everything on the class fair.

Silinsar.6298:

Nothing against your will to get rid of “toxic” skills and mechanics, but not at the cost of balance which will probably take years to recover.

This last patch was actually a pretty strong push in this direction. Air Blast got a cast time and tell. Warrior has a TON more counterplay. Thief got some counterplay nerfs. Overall, I think they’re slowly realizing they need to add counterplay to the game. I wouldn’t be so pessimistic about their ability to balance, regardless of how little they’ve done in the past.

Nano.3706:

Nano.3706:

Elixir H change? How?

Read…The post?

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Med Kit is changing slightly. Packaged Stimulants and Elixir H are not changing.

Stop posting about matters that you are not familiar with please. Your spreading mis information.

The specifically stated in the engineer skill bar that skills on the med kit are changing and went over 2 of those specifically. As well elixir H is changing., They specifically stated that how each and every elixir functions, will change.

What most players want – skills adjusted for more builds

What The Gates Assassin wants-

dancingmonkey.4902:

As well elixir H is changing., They specifically stated that how each and every elixir functions, will change.

Elixir H isn’t changing. No matter how much you want it to, they did not mention Elixir H.

http://dulfy.net/2014/07/25/gw2-upcoming-changes-to-engineer-and-ranger/

Notice Packaged Stimulants isn’t mentioned either?

What The Gates Assassin wants-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

I want counterplay. I want every build to be skillful.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

dancingmonkey.4902:

As well elixir H is changing., They specifically stated that how each and every elixir functions, will change.

Elixir H isn’t changing. No matter how much you want it to, they did not mention Elixir H.

http://dulfy.net/2014/07/25/gw2-upcoming-changes-to-engineer-and-ranger/

Notice Packaged Stimulants isn’t mentioned either?

What The Gates Assassin wants-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

I want counterplay. I want every build to be skillful.

As I said. They stated very specifically in the video that the functionality of every elixir and how they worked as a whole, will be changing next Tuesday.

try learning something for yourself, instead of twisting Dulphy’s write up to support your mis information my friend. It will serve everyone well, including yourself.

dancingmonkey.4902:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

dancingmonkey.4902:

As well elixir H is changing., They specifically stated that how each and every elixir functions, will change.

Elixir H isn’t changing. No matter how much you want it to, they did not mention Elixir H.

http://dulfy.net/2014/07/25/gw2-upcoming-changes-to-engineer-and-ranger/

Notice Packaged Stimulants isn’t mentioned either?

What The Gates Assassin wants-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

I want counterplay. I want every build to be skillful.

As I said. They stated very specifically in the video that the functionality of every elixir and how they worked as a whole, will be changing next Tuesday.

try learning something for yourself, instead of twisting Dulphy’s write up to support your mis information my friend. It will serve everyone well, including yourself.

I’ll see you patch day, when Elixir H has had absolutely nothing changed about it.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Notice Packaged Stimulants isn’t mentioned either?

Hmm, like how he covered it at 21:20 in the video, and explained the changes about it ?

dancingmonkey.4902:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Notice Packaged Stimulants isn’t mentioned either?

Hmm, like how he covered it at 21:20 in the video, and explained the changes about it ?

That’s med kit! What are you talking about! Packaged Stimulants =/= Med Kit!

My change would be that when you throw the Med Kits, they would Heal, cleanse or grant fury/swiftness in an area. It’s so that the engineer isn’t limited to Elixir Gun and Healing Turret for support heals. Packaged Stimulants is trying to make Med Kit an “other” style heal instead of completely selfish. I think it needs AoE to be able to do that.

Yup. Your right. I was confusing package stimulants with always prepared. My apologies.

That doesn’t change the fact that your assessment is abysmal as I see it. Even suggesting that SD doesn’t have counter play it just poorly thought out in my opinion. It is as easy to see coming as grenades.

Spiking a CCed player is not “stupid” as you so intelligently coined it. Setting up a combo to burst players take a bit of effort at times. Not to mention that crying about being burst by a glass cannon build is just baffling. It is just mind boggling to see someone crying about a glass cannon build with no HP or toughness being able to do damage.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Static Discharge – Is the build itself OP? No. But the fact that someone who I just CCed can possibly spike me for upwards of 7.5k is kinda stupid (Fire 1.5k, Air 1.5k, SD 1.5k, Surprise Shot 1.5k, Analyze SD 1.5k = 7.5k).

You know that SD Engineer is pretty much just the hobosack peasant version of the S/F Fresh Air Ele? Surprise Shot & Analyze vs. Air Swap, Air 2, Arcane Wave? Not even close.

It may be stupid, but ‘stupid, instant burst’ is the only thing that’s keeping multiple character archetypes alive. They require the user to be fully devoted to zerker amulet, and are typically complete man mode to sustain yourself while using them.

Long live the bursties, imo. None of them are OP and making them easily read is going to simply toss them in the trash. Obviously, I would be all for a re-balance that keeps the playstyle alive, and at the same time makes the abilities dodge-able. But I think it’s just easier to leave it!

Chaith.8256:

making them easily read is going to simply toss them in the trash.

To be honest. They are easy to read now. I mean the SD bolt doesn’t move any faster then grenades and is slower then any ranger or warrior arrow. They have a solid visual, with plenty of time to counter with a dodge, block, invuln, and what not, as it is in my opinion.

You obviously don’t Main an Engi and NO most of those suggestions are bad. EG was nerfed with Kit Refinement we had a third option for condi removal at that time, there’s never been a replacement. So transmute until an alternative can be made is necessary. In case you hadn’t noticed condi engis actually need the trait that builds damage based on how many condis are on the enemy so it’s best to get as many as possible.

I happen to agree with you on the medkit, it’s severely underwhelming as is most of the lightning affects from the three essentials that actually work on the Fkeys and hit their target. another bug.

Chaith.8256:

Obviously, I would be all for a re-balance that keeps the playstyle alive, and at the same time makes the abilities dodge-able. But I think it’s just easier to leave it!

Easier, but not better. As I said, it’s not OP, but it just means that they can’t buff it into an actually viable build without making it OP because it has no telegraphs. Imagine if the build could function as well as the SF ele, but with greater cooldowns and all the traits available to engineers! Mix all of that with the burst being instant at close range? They can’t buff it because it would be OP to buff it. I would love another type of engi that isn’t just nades all day in high level tPvP.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Chaith.8256:

making them easily read is going to simply toss them in the trash.

To be honest. They are easy to read now. I mean the SD bolt doesn’t move any faster then grenades and is slower then any ranger or warrior arrow. They have a solid visual, with plenty of time to counter with a dodge, block, invuln, and what not, as it is in my opinion.

The only time it’s easy to read is if you pull back about 600 range+. If you are close in, you can be spiked pretty easily. The only way to really dodge at close range it is to anticipate a burst by teasing it out. While this can work, I don’t find this to be fun. It’s almost like luck. Who the hell knows if he is really going to spike then? That’s not interesting gameplay to me.

tigirius.9014:

You obviously don’t Main an Engi and NO most of those suggestions are bad. EG was nerfed with Kit Refinement we had a third option for condi removal at that time, there’s never been a replacement. So transmute until an alternative can be made is necessary. In case you hadn’t noticed condi engis actually need the trait that builds damage based on how many condis are on the enemy so it’s best to get as many as possible.

I happen to agree with you on the medkit, it’s severely underwhelming as is most of the lightning affects from the three essentials that actually work on the Fkeys and hit their target. another bug.

My proposed change doesn’t actually change the overall effect that much. Heals are on a 15-20s cooldown for engi, so it’d only be a slight nerf. You could even make the ICD 10s so that mid kit becomes a bit stronger!

I agree with everything that was said here. Strangely enough, point #2 is the one that irks me the most, even more than turret builds. I know those traits combined with grenades are basically the bread and butter for our class, but it’s way to kittening OP for the amount of work required – especially when combined with P/P. I can literally walk up to another engineer, lob a couple of grenades, and go somewhere else knowing that Engi is downed.

I run an HGH engi with 5 sources of condi removal (6 if you count transmute), that’s about as good as condi removal is going to get on an Engi minus Elxir Gun. Versus a full condi engineer I’ll loose every time no matter how much I outplay them. After clearing his initial condi spam he needs 1-2 hits tops and I’m swimming in conditions all over again.

The amount of damage they are dishing out condi-wise needs to be changed so it at least requires some skillful play on their part to get to that level, not spam a few autos and call it a day.

I almost stooped reading at “HT casting time should be 1 second”…

It sounded like you never did Tpvp or WvW roaming.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

That’s what I was saying. Skills should be strong as a start, and mixed up and stronger when traited. Balancing from both ends means that you close the gap between the traited and untraited versions in their effective power.

It isn’t that simple. There are two issues, mainly. Numbers and effects of traits.
Turrets are a prime example of those issues: we have a lot of traits regarding turrets. Even multiple grandmaster ones. If you take them all, there must be a definite gap compared to the untraited versions. Doing otherwise would mean making traits deliberately weak, and forcing the player to get all of them to have some advantage, even if that advantage isn’t comparatively as good as getting some different category with a lesser sovrabundance of traits, but better balanced.
Regarding the effects of traits, a particular example is grenadier.
Grenadier is an overspecialized grandmaster tier trait, working with a single utility/kit.
Personally speaking, this is the worst thing they may ever have done. Such a specialized trait must be really strong to even have a reason to exist. And its effects sure are good…so good that they’ve completely wrecked the balancing of the base weapon to not make it overpowered when traited and they still balance the whole kit over the traited weapon. Obviously, they shouldn’t have put an overspecialized trait as a grandmaster one to begin with.
That said, you’re making the same error as above – piling up effects and expecting them to be balanced both together and when alone. Obviously it won’t work like so – piling up effects must make the total result stronger, else they would be too weak to warrant their slots to begin with.
If there are issues in having all those effects together, then the game should prevent you in doing so; but it should also rebalance them in order to recoup the loss in generalization. The more they are specialized and limited, the more they must be powerful in order to be balanced.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Incendiary Powder is very strong and very hard to play against. As I said in my previous post, it’s not about skills being OP. SD isn’t OP. But it’s not fun to play against because it’s instant, nigh unavoidable damage without using extremely advanced tactics. It’s not about nerfing OP stuff, it’s about making the application of everything on the class fair.

But that’s because you are convinced that you must be able to counter it. That may not be necessarily true. How do you counter a trait that gives +X% damage on a weapon? You can’t, simple like that. This is just a condition version of such traits, just balanced a bit differently (targeting a single player but raising sustained damage by a sensible amount instead of spreading lesser amounts of damage versus multiple targets like +X% damage traits can do).
A clear visual indication can give the possibility of avoiding this particular attack, sure. But maybe they didn’t think of it as something you should be able to avoid. Like those +X% traits mentioned above.

Manuhell.2759:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

That’s what I was saying. Skills should be strong as a start, and mixed up and stronger when traited. Balancing from both ends means that you close the gap between the traited and untraited versions in their effective power.

It isn’t that simple.

Never said it was! These are tough changes to make and they might not be perfect right away. Hell, I’m sure some of the stuff I suggested has some flaws in it. But I think some people tend to just accept things the way they are because they think Anet is unwilling to improve their game. Nothing could be further from the truth. This next patch kinda proves it.

Regarding nades, I think they did that because if grenadier was baseline, it’d be pretty crazy what builds you can make with nades. Imagine running a 0/6/0/4/4 build with fully traited nades? Or just getting those 2 extra trait points for not having to take Grenadier? I think it’s kinda stupid that it’s balanced around it, but I’m pretty sure that’s the reasoning.

If we’re talking about reasonable effects, it really doesn’t matter how much you stack up. As long as it can be stopped in some way, there’s really no issue. The thing is that turrets right now are pretty hard to get down when fully traited and spread out on point, especially with other turrets putting up bubbles. That effect should be stoppable. Also, I think that turrets have kinda joined in the same situation as nades. Those traits are so strong that you can’t run turrets with out them. Maybe part of the solution should be to go for the traits as well/instead?

Manuhell.2759:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Incendiary Powder is very strong and very hard to play against. As I said in my previous post, it’s not about skills being OP. SD isn’t OP. But it’s not fun to play against because it’s instant, nigh unavoidable damage without using extremely advanced tactics. It’s not about nerfing OP stuff, it’s about making the application of everything on the class fair.

But that’s because you are convinced that you must be able to counter it. That may not be necessarily true. How do you counter a trait that gives +X% damage on a weapon? You can’t, simple like that. This is just a condition version of such traits, just balanced a bit differently (targeting a single player but raising sustained damage by a sensible amount instead of spreading lesser amounts of damage versus multiple targets like +X% damage traits can do).
A clear visual indication can give the possibility of avoiding this particular attack, sure. But maybe they didn’t think of it as something you should be able to avoid. Like those +X% traits mentioned above.

+X% damage traits aren’t that much damage with smaller cooldowns. But Incendiary Powder is about 2.6k damage over 4 seconds on the low end, and this can be tied to an easy to hit auto attack! A small 700 damage hit will only go up to 770 with a +10% trait. A small 700 damage hit will go up to 600ish damage per second with burning. It’s a big difference. The +X% traits tend to scale with the big cooldowns.

nihasa.5067:

I almost stooped reading at “HT casting time should be 1 second”…

It sounded like you never did Tpvp or WvW roaming.

It’s almost like you have an argument against it. HT has a really big effect. It allows engis to play stupid and get away with it simply because it’s so hard to interrupt that without luck or anticipating it. Other classes have to actually cover their healing skill and can’t just spam it on recharge only to be stopped by the highest of ranking players. Necros fear people away or LOS. Mesmer go invuln. Is it too much to ask that Engis CC things and LOS as well?

I really think covering your heal skill is a big part of playing this game, but certain classes get to skirt that responsibility. Withdraw? Shelter? Healing Turret?

This all said, I think 3/4 would be a good cast time as well. I understand that we don’t have the super awesome invulns and massive amounts of stealth that other classes have to cover their heals. I think it’s a fair middle ground.

You almost make it sound like an HT engineer never dies…

It is my opinion that Healing Turret is fine as it is currently as a heal.

It functions very poorly as a Turret, however.

I see the argument here but it’s currently not practical to compare one profession to another in any measure. Or we will be spending the next year waiting for the other Content Patch to hit while we discuss the differences between the Warriors Pin Down skill and the Necromancers Dark Pact.

The heals that currently function. (That is to say, that are the dominant strategy) should be left relatively untouched until the other less used heals are brought up since most of the core perceived balance revolves around these Heal type skills.

Although It is fun to discuss about comparing other professions to one another. Like what if Fragmentation Shot applied Confusion like a Mesmers Scepter applies Torment….. I personally would prefer a singular new weapon for each profession. I don’t care if it is a brand new weapon type, or just an existing weapon that every profession now has access too provided that it is new, and shakes up the game.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Regarding nades, I think they did that because if grenadier was baseline, it’d be pretty crazy what builds you can make with nades. Imagine running a 0/6/0/4/4 build with fully traited nades? Or just getting those 2 extra trait points for not having to take Grenadier? I think it’s kinda stupid that it’s balanced around it, but I’m pretty sure that’s the reasoning.

I’m not talking about having it as a baseline, that would be crazy. Imho, it would be better if they scrapped it at the design phase.
Grandmaster traits must be good to be warranted such a slot. Making a grandmaster trait focused on a single utility must have even greater effects to make up for the specialization.
And that’s exactly the reason why they shouldn’t have made them so – either they end up being too weak for a grandmaster slot, or they are so good that the whole weapon ends up having to be balanced upon them. As it happened for grenades.
Imho, traits focused on a single weapon/utility should be at most master traits. So they can have good effects, but not that much strong. And grandmaster slots can be left to categories of skills, so that you can spread the bonuses (thus avoiding to pack a lot of bonuses on a single utility/weapon).

If we’re talking about reasonable effects, it really doesn’t matter how much you stack up. As long as it can be stopped in some way, there’s really no issue. The thing is that turrets right now are pretty hard to get down when fully traited and spread out on point, especially with other turrets putting up bubbles. That effect should be stoppable. Also, I think that turrets have kinda joined in the same situation as nades. Those traits are so strong that you can’t run turrets with out them. Maybe part of the solution should be to go for the traits as well/instead?

Turrets are definitely bloated with traits, and end up having a situation similar to the one described above. The traits, taken alone, are kinda balanced. The effects are nicely spread between the skills.

That is, taking them alone. When you have multiple grandmaster traits and several other ones together, the balancing ends up going haywire, as the effects pile up.
This isn’t inherently wrong – the trait system is supposed to work like that. Turrets, by themselves, aren’t strong. They end up being obnoxious when you can pile a lot of traits about them. It is a sort of category-wide overspecialization, and you end up having to rely upon them completely.
But even here, the problem isn’t in the balancing, imho. Rather, the issue is in the design: there shouldn’t have been that many traits to get to begin with.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

+X% damage traits aren’t that much damage with smaller cooldowns. But Incendiary Powder is about 2.6k damage over 4 seconds on the low end, and this can be tied to an easy to hit auto attack! A small 700 damage hit will only go up to 770 with a +10% trait. A small 700 damage hit will go up to 600ish damage per second with burning. It’s a big difference. The +X% traits tend to scale with the big cooldowns.

+X% damage traits haven’t got cooldowns, though, and they work with any amount of opponents. IP works versus a single opponent and has an internal cooldown, so we should consider that in the calculations as well. You shouldn’t consider the effects of a single attack, thus, but rather the multiple contributions over time. While it is true that over its duration it raises dps more than a +X% trait would do in the same timespan, it has also no effect until the internal cooldown is depleted. And while you can raise its effects by increasing condition damage and duration, the same is true for +X% traits too, by raising stats related to direct damage.
Also, while you do apply it with a single attack, conditions by themselves are a form of sustained damage, as their damage is applied over time. That’s no different from a +X% trait, as that damage is spread over time as well – in every attack you do, as a fact. The difference is in the scope: IP is applied to a single target and for a limited timeframe, whereas a +X% effect is always active.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Increase the placement time of turrets to 1s. Yes, this includes healing turret. Remember that for a 1/2s cast time, you are getting a knockback, a reflect, a passive boon, some damage and some overcharge ability.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Clearly I’m not talking about Healing Turret when I refer to a turret build

Sorry, just had to be pedantic here. That was why I responded in the way I did yesterday. But you’re right, everyone was confused, let’s move on.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Shrapnel + Incendiary Powder + Steel Packed Powder + Doom Sigil – This is just BS. If someone hits you with freeze grenade, it’s totally possible that you’ll get five conditions on you (Bleeding, Burning, Poison, Vulnerability and Chilled). That’s way too many conditions for every grenade to possibly cause. Its even annoying with just pistols, as now an auto attack can hit for way more conditions than they are suppose to. It may feel like the issue is grenades or pistols, but in reality these are the real culprits.

I mentioned this very same thing last year . The conclusion a lot of posters and I came to after some discussion was that IP as it stands is propping up a lot of Engineer’s sustained damage in both Power and Condi builds, and that taking it away is going to make Engi’s place in balance very tenuous.

I think (and I’m putting words in Anet’s design team here) that the original intent for Incendiary Powder was for Engineer to have a powerful “hybrid” spec by slotting this trait; that obtained good direct and condi damage by tying some sustained condi damage (on Burning, which has relatively low scaling) to Crit-procs. This kind of design intent can be more clearly seen in earlier iterations of IP where it was 33% chance to Burn on Critical Hit for 2 seconds.

Also keep in mind that this was when the game was very young and people hadn’t even begun to explore Condition builds as of yet. It was Teldo that really popularised the Condi Engi as a powerful “bruiser” and by extension IP due to abusing Sigil of Smouldering and Napalm Specialist. Anet recognised this and subsequently nerfed IP and Napalm Specialist through successive patches to its current state which is very much a “designed in” way for Engi to easily get steady condi pressure. Unfortunately, IP is now back in the “OP” spotlight due to Balthazar Runes and newly buffed Sigil of Smouldering allowing nigh-90% uptime of Burning without using cooldowns that directly cause Burning.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Tie shrapnel to Grenade Barrage and Big Ol Bomb. Condi engis never use Grenade Barrage, so it’d be nice if there was a good reason to use it. Big Ol Bomb = 4 stacks of bleed, grenade barrage = short duration bleed per nade that hits (like 1-2s?)
2. Tie Incendiary Powder to Grenade Barrage and Big Ol Bomb. 5s of burning with Big Ol Bomb, 1s of burning with Grenade Barrage (Maybe give it an ICD on GB so that you don’t get 8s of burning)
3. I have no idea what to do with doom sigil.
4. SPP is actually fine, it’s just kinda scary to see 5 conditions at once.

• I think that whilst IP can and should be nerfed, it shouldn’t be nerfed in such a way as to turn its design on its head and make it a Condi-burst trait. Engineers already have a lot of Condi-burst thanks to Blowtorch, Concussion bomb/Prybar and the GK grenades; it’s the steady output that would be lacking if this was to go forward.

• Honestly this isn’t even that bad of a change, however, there are 2 big problems with it:
  • It ties IP to strictly Bomb-Nade, which doesn’t do anything for build variety
  • It hurts hybrid engi (Celestial Rifle triple-kit) more than Condi engi (Rabid P/x GK TK Elixir S) which kind of further pigeonholes Engi into a Condi role

I think a smarter nerf would be to do this:

• Your next attack after using a Toolbelt skill causes 4 seconds of Burning. ICD: 15 seconds per Toolbelt Skill
  Alternatively,
• Your next attack after using a Toolbelt skill causes 4 seconds of Burning. GCD: 10 seconds

Making the mechanic proc off next attack like Thief Venoms would already do a lot to increase the counterplay of IP; whilst its repeatable nature offers a steady stream of condi DPS. On Next Attack can be blocked, Blinded, dodged, etc; and given that so many Engineer attacks are projectile reliant it will do a lot for counterplay.

Hello frands! Vee Wee here, #1 Engi NA and world first rank 80!

Turret placement is fine! Turret Engis are godawful and have a bunch of weaknesses already! Increasing the cast time of Healing Turret just nerfs every single Engineer out there, and nerfs the only condition cleanse on a class with hands down the worst condition removal in the game!

Condi builds apply conditions! Who knew!

Transmute is fine! You just need to adapt your playstyle! Don’t lead off with powerful conditions! It’s why Vee Wee never Magnets a Terrormancer unless Vee Wee knows Reaper’s Protection is on cooldown! Or maybe Vee Wee wants to bait out the fear chain cooldown so Vee Wee can stunbreak! Adapt!

First Static Discharge does pretty poor damage! Vee Wee tested a SD build recently and it was just not worth taking! Second, if you cc them and go behind them, they can’t hit you with anything! It will even go on a short cooldown! This is especially useful with immobilize! You cannot turn while immoblized!

Hope that helped! Wahoo! Bye frands!

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Shrapnel + Incendiary Powder + Steel Packed Powder + Doom Sigil – This is just BS. If someone hits you with freeze grenade, it’s totally possible that you’ll get five conditions on you (Bleeding, Burning, Poison, Vulnerability and Chilled). That’s way too many conditions for every grenade to possibly cause. Its even annoying with just pistols, as now an auto attack can hit for way more conditions than they are suppose to. It may feel like the issue is grenades or pistols, but in reality these are the real culprits.

I came to the realisation soon after the Dhuumfire patch that “OP” for GW2 comes in sets of 3. As an example:

• Necro Scepter Auto 1 puff to include Poison, then Dhuumfire procs, then the addition of Condition variety through Torment
• Crippling Dissipation, Confusing Combatants, Debilitating Dissipation for Clone Death Mesmer, again having huge condi variety
• Warrior Cleansing Ire, Burst Mastery, Healing Signet buff (only getting shaved just now, 12+ months in)
• Elementalist Renewing Stamina, Elemental Attunement, Evasive Arcana (since 2012, still going strong, and Ele unlikely to budge from Arcana line any time soon)
• Ranger merge of Spirit traits (vigorous spirits), Storm Spirit bug, Renewal spirit regen bug
• Thief Sleight of Hand/Bountiful Theft interaction to prioritise Stability, Precasted larcenous strike into pre-nerf Infiltrator’s strike

It’s trifectas of synergies like this that are exciting for theorycrafting, yet so annoying to play against in practice, and IP is no exception.

Another way to nerf IP, and thus taking into account this trifecta of Steel packed Powder, Incendiary Powder and/or Shrapnel or other crit-procs; is to attack condition application priority.

• Right now the Burning of IP triggers first on Crit. This means that Burning from IP is always covered, unless the triggering attack had no Conditions associated with it.
• Steel Packed Powder’s Vulnerability applies last, which auto-covers any underlying Conditions and is why Grenade Kit is so kitten strong for Condition application
• Grenade Kit’s triple throw lets you roll the dice 3 times, even in a low-Precision setup; whilst multiplying effects like Shrapnel or Sharpshooter to proc

A really smart (albeit very minor) shave to this unholy trinity is simply to reverse the application priority of IP and SPP:

• IP’s burning now applies last on Crit, which means it is exposed to cleansing unless another condi skill is used
• Steel Packed Powder’s Vulnerability now applies first on Explosions, which invalidates SPP’s ability to auto-cover conditions

This makes IP a lot easier to cleanse, whilst retaining its steady, impossible to dodge nature. Personally I would prefer IP to simply be tied to the Toolbelt and be done with; however if absolutely nothing else was to change on the Engineer, then this would be it.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. I have no idea what to do with doom sigil.

I actually think that Doom Sigil is great, because it allows classes without access to Poison a way to rein in those Healing Signet Warriors.

• What needs to change is telegraphing the Doom proc; by adding a green tinge to weapon slashing trails or projectile trails. More simply, a green glow can surround the hands of a person with a Doom proc, and no particles have to be modified. It’s otherwise a pretty balanced proc, relatively speaking, compared to things like Battle Sigil providing a silly 9-12 stacks of Might in a Boon/Might duration setup (and by extension a silly 306 – 408 extra Power and Condition damage (612-816 total bonus stats!) in a fight.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1. Turret Placement Increase the placement time of turrets to 1s.

While this wouldn’t make a dent to Passive turret play, it will greatly destroy my mobile turret build which require way more active play.

It revolves around creating and destroying turrets for defensive effects.

I reject this idea completely because this idea is terrible. It doesn’t address passive play but only hurts other builds a lot more.