Guild Wars 2

I find myself using a kit in WvW or sPvP every single time!
That obviously is because of the gadgets and turrets being underpowered, but they form about half of our skills! I want to use them aswell.

I expirimented a bit with the gadgets and turrets, but I don’t seem to pull it of. Every build I made almost instantly.. sucked.
My turrets break in 10 seconds, and my gadgets just aren’t that usefull. Rocket boots for instance looks nice when you read the discription, but when you use it you’ll get slammed to the ground for about 3 seconds.

Anyone else found a decent build with turrets/gadgets, mainly for WvW?

Have you tried a Static Discharge one?

Nnnnno. If you don’t wanna use kits/grenades, engineer isn’t for you. Pretty much any viable build for Engineer involves grenades (raw damage and condition damage), and non-damage builds are kind of.. why are you in WvW if you’re not there to gib people? Grenades are a great siege/defense tool, to boot, and Magnet (followed by a Net Shot, and even then running past them and using Overcharged Shot) is usually a kill.

Edit: I didn’t say static discharge ’cause that uses toolkit, which is a kit, and I would heartily encourage anyone using it to learn how to gear shield, prybar, and magnet appropriately in WvW.

Well without kits, I guess one might call 4 elixirs with elixir condition removals and might with some boon/might runes as ok, or a possiblity for wvw raid play. But you’re always gonna have lack of aoe dmg without kits, and that’t what w3 is about

For 1v1-1v2 and small small scale you can do pistol/pistol condition build without kits. Nice video that I saw about this style was with P/P, healing kit and rocket boots (burning). Prolly elixir S for second. And then third you can go either control: Net turret/Oil slick boots/ram head, or elixir B.
Good amount of burning being the main source of steady dmg. Add rare veggie pizza for constant burn.

Why engi can be strong in 1v1 1v2 w3 roaming style is cos Supply Crate is quite a iwin button in those numbers.
But for large scale kits are quite mandatory.

a P/P/Elixir build is awesome in PvP when in the hands of someone who knows how to play.

Look for videos by Maskaganda.

Fully traited pistols with pots have good aoe – pistols pierce and explode – and give might or/and condition removal for group support plus other random buffs. It’s also good for dueling / small group play. Range is not as good as grenades but still works for siege and defense of towers and keeps.

4 elixer with p/p conditions can work, but in my opinion it isn’t optimal.

Using an engineer without any kits is choosing to reject your main class profession. It’s almost like doing a signet warrior in concept – it’s easier, and it can work. (it’s not as bad as a signet warrior though)

Here’s the thread / video Sabull.5670 mentioned:

Thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/RUN-a-WvW-movie

Youtube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUkNrrJz43Q

Again, if we are dependent upon kits, this is a major issue.

Our kits are not F1-F4. Until they are, and are not taking up utility slots, we should have viable builds which don’t utilize any.

Anything less from the devs is laziness and a cop-out.

I use primarily the rifle in my build, and only have flamethrower kit in there for the sake of the tool-belt skill.

My traits are 25/25/20/0/0, and my utility skills are the Healing Turret, Utility Goggles, Elixir U, Flamethrower, and (Because I’m Asura) The defense golem summon.

My armor has Power/Precision/Toughness, my jewelry is the classic Power/Precision/Crit %.

The flamethrower could easily be swapped for any other utility skill, though. I often find myself using the Oil Slick Shoes when staying alive in a group of enemies is necessary, radiation field (Asura skill) when I want to prevent enemies from regen, or any other auxiliary kit for it’s utility, Elixir gun for Condition Removal, Tool Kit for pulling enemies in, Bomb kit/Grenade kit for AoE on large groups of mobs.

The Rifle in general provides a lot of control that engineers overlook because they’re always in their kits, but it’s completely viable to be a Rifle or Pistol engineer. You have a lot of neat gadgets that mess people up, but most people would rather just be massive DPS. This game is just as much about damage mitigation than it is about damage.

It depends on your build, personally I find using the Wrench Kit for both condition and crit damage builds really nice in WvW. However, if a personal wanted to I could see them going completely kitless by swapping Wrench Kit out with elixir S. The Charr Racial toolbelt skill is just too darn powerful to give up when going crit damage though….it hits for about 7-8k.

Kamahl.3621:

Nnnnno. If you don’t wanna use kits/grenades, engineer isn’t for you. Pretty much any viable build for Engineer involves grenades

This is completely false. There are several builds that are great in WvW and don’t use grenades. I haven’t run a grenade build since the first month of release.

P/P Elixir build is my personal favorite, followed by a tank build.

Yeah, Maskaganda has found a nice build plus gear setup, and he even didn’t need a name for it.

It should be noted that the 40% from the pizza doesn’t result in an additional tick. You need 50% to get an additional tick.
In my opinion the engineer is pretty good at quickly reapplying conditions once opponents remove them, so condition duration shouldn’t really be an issue we should worry about (for WvW that is) and I advise against using the pizza.
Other foods, depending on your spec, are more effective.

Decent builds without a kit, it’s nearly like Elementalists wanting builds without Attunements >.> But besides yes, 409 Based condition dual pistols scheme would fit you.

Pannonica.5378:

Yeah, Maskaganda has found a nice build plus gear setup, and he even didn’t need a name for it.

Pistols and Pots™
is it too late for it to stick?

also, I’ve improved it. I have enough footage for a new vid with this new “build” but i’ll wait at least a couple of days to see if I get better fights recorded.

Pannonica.5378:

Other foods, depending on your spec, are more effective.

I use Omnomberry Pie personally.

Pannonica.5378:

Yeah, Maskaganda has found a nice build plus gear setup, and he even didn’t need a name for it.

It should be noted that the 40% from the pizza doesn’t result in an additional tick. You need 50% to get an additional tick.
In my opinion the engineer is pretty good at quickly reapplying conditions once opponents remove them, so condition duration shouldn’t really be an issue we should worry about (for WvW that is) and I advise against using the pizza.
Other foods, depending on your spec, are more effective.

Yes and getting 50% tick is pretty easy to reach with the rare veggie pizza. That only requires pizza + 10 points into power/duration traitline.

The highest Condition Damage you can currently get in the game is with Rare Veggie Pizza. This is a 100% condition duration build and it can only be achieved through Rabid/Vatlaaws gear. I use this with my P/P build. Once they fix Giver’s weapon (currently the stats are not being applied), getting 50% duration is going to be easy as pizza. It’s also going to make 100% duration for all of the P/P skills possible, right now only Bleed, Poison, Burn can only benefit from the 100% duration, Confusion is just 10% shy.

So:
P/P = Vatlaaws with for 100% duration using runes/napalm specialist & wrenchkit
Grenade = Rampagers (also the best armor if your switching around from P/P to Grenades and don’t want to buy a ton of gear)
Rifle = Berserkers

Noooo!! Don’t hold out on me, Maskaganda!

PM me and give me the inside scoop please.

Maskaganda.2043:

Pannonica.5378:

Yeah, Maskaganda has found a nice build plus gear setup, and he even didn’t need a name for it.

Pistols and Pots™
is it too late for it to stick?

also, I’ve improved it. I have enough footage for a new vid with this new “build” but i’ll wait at least a couple of days to see if I get better fights recorded.

Can’t wait to see the new vid / build Maskaganda. I am unashamed to admit that i’ve been copying your build since your first vid a while back… to great success!

Maskaganda.2043:

Pannonica.5378:

Yeah, Maskaganda has found a nice build plus gear setup, and he even didn’t need a name for it.

Pistols and Pots™
is it too late for it to stick?

also, I’ve improved it. I have enough footage for a new vid with this new “build” but i’ll wait at least a couple of days to see if I get better fights recorded.

I can’t wait to see the new vid and build! I love your previous videos and build.

I bet he’s testing out how powerful condition duration really is.

Just think when they fix Giver’s weapon stat’s the potential that P/P will have. Think about having easily 100% condition duration and 13+ stacks of might….going to be pretty sick.

Goloith.6349:

I bet he’s testing out how powerful condition duration really is.

Just think when they fix Giver’s weapon stat’s the potential that P/P will have. Think about having easily 100% condition duration and 13+ stacks of might….going to be pretty sick.

I tested that before, I’m too much of a a wuss to drop cloaking device for those 10% from explosives. I have no doubt condition duration is powerful, I do have a necro :p my problem comes with it’s usefulness against perma condition removal classes/builds as I’ve said before.

edit: I didn’t mean to hijack the thread, sorry about that.

Tyaen.5148:

This is completely false. There are several builds that are great in WvW and don’t use grenades. I haven’t run a grenade build since the first month of release.

P/P Elixir build is my personal favorite, followed by a tank build.

Fact – grenades apply conditions better than pistols, bar confusion, which is what Prybar is for. Pistol is one of the worst weapons in the game for engineer to choose, and the only reason you should ever consider it is to gain access to a shield, or maybe blowtorch (although there are better utilities to apply burn). I could make a pick and choose montage of my WvW exploits that take literally 5% of the time those P/P vids to achieve kills – magnet/netshot/faceroll. P/P is an attrition build that only works on those without decent sustain, and to be quite frank, you’d go screaming with far more damage if you just ran rifle instead of pistols for your build. The only thing of note on pistol is the confusion – other than that, the damage is pitiful.

You wanna say grenades miss? They do, at long ranges during skirmishes. That’s what magnet is for. And net shot. And overcharged shot. So you won’t miss the freeze grenade, barrage, and shrapnel grenade. If things get hazy, you have the thinking man’s safety – Gear Shield. I won’t say elixir S isn’t great, it ensures stomps and saves lives. I drop elixir gun for it while WvWing more often than not. But to call a build that takes forever to achieve a kill in a skirmish scenario is not decent – not when, by comparison, someone with the same traits can achieve a kill time of 2-3 seconds (this isn’t even considering hundred ‘nades) by using better skills (read: kits). I’d sooner advocate static discharge than P&P. Heck, I actually could advocate HGH Rifle – between sigil of battle, some boon / might duration increases, HGH, and just using elixir B and your heal elixir’s toss, you can maintain 18-22 stacks during a fight (although half of those are from sigil of battle, admittedly, but still!).

tl;dr – there’s a skill floor, and a skill attic, and P&P is barely pushing your skill kitchen sink. The engineer really cranks off damage-wise once you start reaching the skill cookie jar.

“… that take literally 5% of the time those P/P vids to achieve kills”

If you’re a child that wants the cookies from the cookie jar nau, you might want to run 100nades, because it gets the job done in 1% of the time those P/P vids to achieve kills (or deaths).

Kamahl.3621:

Tyaen.5148:

This is completely false. There are several builds that are great in WvW and don’t use grenades. I haven’t run a grenade build since the first month of release.

P/P Elixir build is my personal favorite, followed by a tank build.

Fact – grenades apply conditions better than pistols, bar confusion, which is what Prybar is for. Pistol is one of the worst weapons in the game for engineer to choose, and the only reason you should ever consider it is to gain access to a shield, or maybe blowtorch (although there are better utilities to apply burn). I could make a pick and choose montage of my WvW exploits that take literally 5% of the time those P/P vids to achieve kills – magnet/netshot/faceroll. P/P is an attrition build that only works on those without decent sustain, and to be quite frank, you’d go screaming with far more damage if you just ran rifle instead of pistols for your build. The only thing of note on pistol is the confusion – other than that, the damage is pitiful.

You wanna say grenades miss? They do, at long ranges during skirmishes. That’s what magnet is for. And net shot. And overcharged shot. So you won’t miss the freeze grenade, barrage, and shrapnel grenade. If things get hazy, you have the thinking man’s safety – Gear Shield. I won’t say elixir S isn’t great, it ensures stomps and saves lives. I drop elixir gun for it while WvWing more often than not. But to call a build that takes forever to achieve a kill in a skirmish scenario is not decent – not when, by comparison, someone with the same traits can achieve a kill time of 2-3 seconds (this isn’t even considering hundred ‘nades) by using better skills (read: kits). I’d sooner advocate static discharge than P&P. Heck, I actually could advocate HGH Rifle – between sigil of battle, some boon / might duration increases, HGH, and just using elixir B and your heal elixir’s toss, you can maintain 18-22 stacks during a fight (although half of those are from sigil of battle, admittedly, but still!).

tl;dr – there’s a skill floor, and a skill attic, and P&P is barely pushing your skill kitchen sink. The engineer really cranks off damage-wise once you start reaching the skill cookie jar.

Fact – the above post is full of opinion.

The question was are there viable non kit WvW builds. There are. Just because you aren’t skilled enough to play them is irrelevant.

Ferum Flamebender.5910:

I find myself using a kit in WvW or sPvP every single time!
That obviously is because of the gadgets and turrets being underpowered, but they form about half of our skills! I want to use them aswell.

I expirimented a bit with the gadgets and turrets, but I don’t seem to pull it of. Every build I made almost instantly.. sucked.
My turrets break in 10 seconds, and my gadgets just aren’t that usefull. Rocket boots for instance looks nice when you read the discription, but when you use it you’ll get slammed to the ground for about 3 seconds.

Anyone else found a decent build with turrets/gadgets, mainly for WvW?

To me it seems that the Eng was thrown together at the last moment, that class concept is great but very poorly executed.

The class needs a major make over, damage is poop, survivability can be good but that’s it, to me the Eng class should be at the cutting edge of technology, instead we have a watered down Inspector Gadget.

The Eng should be a class that mimics and creates magic though there technology, they should have the best pistol and rifle attacks because they are the only class in the game with no melee and the fact that they are engineers, and what do engineers do, well they create and modify so IMO they should have simi-auto pistols, (no cast time on pistol auto shots), Aoe cone effect damage on there rifle (shot gun), modified grenade launcher & a bennett attack, leave the turrets but make them just a boon/utility that last like X amount of seconds no damage, just effect like the trap net, knock back ,stability, ect. that way A-net does not feel the need to nerf the heck out of there pistol/rifle damage because of the turret damage like it is now. (and yes that is the reason)

you sold me on a bayonette foe the rifle. omg please!

Hello.
Try that with some gear/trait variation:
0/30/20/20/0
Utility:elixier H, B, S, net turret;
Gear: full knight, berserker rifle.
Rune:superior rune of the air
Food:rare vaggie pizza, to increase immobilize/cripple duration.
Accessory:full cavalier jewels+ vitality / power/crit dmg upgrade.
Rifle trait for 1200 range, cripple on immobilize, and shorter rifle CD;
Turret trait:-30% dmg on turret, turret self heal;
Elixier trait: -20% cd on elixier, 409 formula.
You should have 2900pw; 40% crit chance; 2790 armor; 49% crit dmg.
You will get roflstomped by any condition damage enemy if u don’t pay attenction using the elixiers for dispell.
I also run a variation of this build using kits, but u are not intrested in that.
I apologize for my english, and sorry if i don’t remember traits name but i’m writing from phone.I hope it can be of some help for you.
Regards.

Maskaganda.2043:

Goloith.6349:

I bet he’s testing out how powerful condition duration really is.

Just think when they fix Giver’s weapon stat’s the potential that P/P will have. Think about having easily 100% condition duration and 13+ stacks of might….going to be pretty sick.

I tested that before, I’m too much of a a wuss to drop cloaking device for those 10% from explosives. I have no doubt condition duration is powerful, I do have a necro :p my problem comes with it’s usefulness against perma condition removal classes/builds as I’ve said before.

edit: I didn’t mean to hijack the thread, sorry about that.

Hey man it’s all about how you play. There’s going to be a lot of room once they fix Giver’s Weapons to play around with stuff.

We are not dependent on kits to function and you have all of the options available to you.

Rifle: Power build can be DPS focused or bunker/support focused and everything in between

Pistil: Condition focused so a good amount of crit also.

People seem to ignore the fact that utility slots can be change instantly, healing turret or med pack or wrench can easily be swapped in to meet your current needs.

Nirvana.8659:

Hello.
Try that with some gear/trait variation:
0/30/20/20/0
Utility:elixier H, B, S, net turret;
Gear: full knight, berserker rifle.
Rune:superior rune of the air
Food:rare vaggie pizza, to increase immobilize/cripple duration.
Accessory:full cavalier jewels+ vitality / power/crit dmg upgrade.
Rifle trait for 1200 range, cripple on immobilize, and shorter rifle CD;
Turret trait:-30% dmg on turret, turret self heal;
Elixier trait: -20% cd on elixier, 409 formula.
You should have 2900pw; 40% crit chance; 2790 armor; 49% crit dmg.
You will get roflstomped by any condition damage enemy if u don’t pay attenction using the elixiers for dispell.
I also run a variation of this build using kits, but u are not intrested in that.
I apologize for my english, and sorry if i don’t remember traits name but i’m writing from phone.I hope it can be of some help for you.
Regards.

Why not healing turret?

The tool belt pre-turret cast (last I read) should clear conditions, the turret itself has an overcharge to clear conditions, the regen will help counter damage over time, and will be applied group-wide. You also get a periodic water field from the turret for finishers and a detonate for the burst heal.

409 + elixir H gets you one cleanse for your heal, but you’d get double the condie cleanse with the turret per cooldown and added group utility.

looks like ppl are still not getting how condition duration truly works.
read this.
in short we as engineers benefit from duration more so then other professions due to the easy to apply p/p condition (not a lot of ramp up time short cd ect).
you will get your extra tick from our 2s condition.
you start to see a real benefit at 25%, and imo after some testing i`d say stopping at 65% and going for condition damage works the best for min max(in real game play not just on theory).
so you don`t really need to be only at 50% or 100% to benefit like ppl implying and pizza is the way to go for sure in most p/p condition builds.

@Plasmacutter
Hello Plasma.
I’m happy you noticed that can be used healing turret too.
I use it in my original version of the build but,the build change and become the kit variant,and you have less HP because:

0/30/20/0/20 (you pass from 18k hp to 16k)

kit trait: speedy kits+kit refinement ;

Utility : healing turret ,elixir gun OR flamethrower ,net turret , elixir S.

Less survive ability,less HP pool but , more HP regen ,more condition dispel( 2 from elixir gun due to kit refiniment+elixier F ; flamethrower also dispell condition on activation due to kit refinement and as you say Healing turret provide a dispell too).

Gear are the same,in this case you have 16.5k hp , 2900 pow ,40% crit chanc ,69% crit dmg.

Rare vaggie pizza,with only +36% cond duraion,make net turret pass from 3 second immobilize to 4 second , and rifle skill #2 pass from 2 seconds to 2.8 .
The trait of cripple on immobilize for 5 seconds,also benefets from pizza food too.it’s around 7 sec cripple duration,and consider that net turret cripple too!

This build offer an extreme control of the enemy.
Problematic class with this build remain mesmer.
pet classes like ranger,will have their pet completely disabled,cutting the ranger damage.

Also,it’s good for 1 vs 1 ( i use it in roaming for WvW , it works, is not theory craft).
This build is not good if you plan to fight 2+ target AND you still have no practice with engineer but,it provides a great group support due to healing turret+elixier gun.

Also, pistol + shield and as utility healing turret + wrench kit + net turret + elixier S is a build that deserve a try , but i still have to master it or find a solution to make it work properly.

Sorry for my english.
Regards.

First of all I want to thank the people who gave me some really good advise!
I’m definitely going to try the P/P builds, and wait upmfor the video of maskaganda.

To clearify, I like kits. I use the toolkit, grenade kit, elixer gun, and bombkit.
I just wanted to check out id we could run a non-kit build effectively.

There still is some discussion going on about this. But I believe this P/P build could really work.

cottage.3274:

looks like ppl are still not getting how condition duration truly works.
read this.
in short we as engineers benefit from duration more so then other professions due to the easy to apply p/p condition (not a lot of ramp up time short cd ect).
you will get your extra tick from our 2s condition.
you start to see a real benefit at 25%, and imo after some testing i`d say stopping at 65% and going for condition damage works the best for min max(in real game play not just on theory).
so you don`t really need to be only at 50% or 100% to benefit like ppl implying and pizza is the way to go for sure in most p/p condition builds.

Lol you are so lost my friend, condition rounding still affects Engineers and like it or not but stopping at 65% is only going to give you a 3 second bleed, vs a 100% at 4 seconds.

It’s either you stop at 50% duration and stack condition damage or 100% duration there is no in between…..

Goloith.6349:

cottage.3274:

looks like ppl are still not getting how condition duration truly works.
read this.
in short we as engineers benefit from duration more so then other professions due to the easy to apply p/p condition (not a lot of ramp up time short cd ect).
you will get your extra tick from our 2s condition.
you start to see a real benefit at 25%, and imo after some testing i`d say stopping at 65% and going for condition damage works the best for min max(in real game play not just on theory).
so you don`t really need to be only at 50% or 100% to benefit like ppl implying and pizza is the way to go for sure in most p/p condition builds.

Lol you are so lost my friend, condition rounding still affects Engineers and like it or not but stopping at 65% is only going to give you a 3 second bleed, vs a 100% at 4 seconds.

It’s either you stop at 50% duration and stack condition damage or 100% duration there is no in between…..

no my friend your lost.

go do some tests then come back and tall me i`m wrong,i did and alot,
this is what you get:

65%
explosive shot 2 bleed stacks=7 ticks
poison dart volley 5 darts=16 ticks
blowtorch 200 distance 3 stacks=9 ticks

vs 50%
explosive Shot 2 bleed stacks=6 ticks
poison dart volley 5 darts=15 ticks
blowtorch 200 distance 3 stacks=9 ticks

what you and some ppl do not seem to get is that its true that per one shot of explosive shot you will not get 1s or 2s extra if you don`t be at 50/100% exactly since its gets rounded down.
but if you get to 0.25/0.65/0.75+- ect it will be added to the next shot and the next shot and so on resulting in a extra tick at some point to take 65%(its really 62.5%) as example on the second shot you will get one more tick.
and as you can see only blowtorch don`t get the benefit of 10 ticks vs 9 ticks in 65%/50% you need 70% for the 10.
so no you don`t need to be only in 50/100% to benefit from condition duration.
and like i said our low cd and base low duration on skills that apply conditions works to our favor when considering condition duration.

MrForz.1953:

Decent builds without a kit, it’s nearly like Elementalists wanting builds without Attunements >.> But besides yes, 409 Based condition dual pistols scheme would fit you.

I took another look at my elementalist utility skills and I could not find attunement swapping in there. Turns out that you can have attunements and 3 utility skills besides. I figure I’m probably missing something in this analogy.

Yeah, I know, the toolbelt. The thing about that is those skills are tied to your utility skills, so that doesn’t really do much do address number of “good” build options, which I think is kind of the larger point. Of course, there is also a caveat with attunements, which is that elementalists choose their one weapon set and that dictates all of their weapon skills, which is another game mechanic that kind of bugs me a little, but that’s a topic for another thread.

On the other hand, I look at thief utility skills, and wonder why I would want to use some of them in PvE, ever, so I guess there’s that.

Signet of Forums.4397:

MrForz.1953:

Decent builds without a kit, it’s nearly like Elementalists wanting builds without Attunements >.> But besides yes, 409 Based condition dual pistols scheme would fit you.

I took another look at my elementalist utility skills and I could not find attunement swapping in there. Turns out that you can have attunements and 3 utility skills besides. I figure I’m probably missing something in this analogy.

Yeah, I know, the toolbelt. The thing about that is those skills are tied to your utility skills, so that doesn’t really do much do address _number of "good" build options_, which I think is kind of the larger point. Of course, there is also a caveat with attunements, which is that elementalists choose their one weapon set and that dictates all of their weapon skills, which is another game mechanic that kind of bugs me a little, but that’s a topic for another thread.

On the other hand, I look at thief utility skills, and wonder why I would want to use some of them in PvE, ever, so I guess there’s that.

Right, but the toolbelt is still the right sort of mechanic to make up for kit swapping. Anet may not have gotten them to where they need to be yet, but the concept of a toolbelt skill that is "utility equivalent" that is tied to the kit makes sense. it allows you to make choices on kits for multiple reasons (hrmm, i like net turret because i get an immo skill in my toolbelt, i like ft because i get 3 free burns, etc etc).

then, other utilities like elixirs and gadgets have reduced utility skills on the toolbelt (RNG, im looking at you ... ) because the skills themselves are already utilities, so having TWO utility powered skills for the price of one would be OP.

and where these skills are placed is 100% irrelevant because you can rebind any skill to any key you want. there is no reason not to rebind your controls to put whatever skills you what wherever you want them.

Elixers or Turrets can work, they’re not kits.

Pannonica.5378:

“… that take literally 5% of the time those P/P vids to achieve kills”

If you’re a child that wants the cookies from the cookie jar nau, you might want to run 100nades, because it gets the job done in 1% of the time those P/P vids to achieve kills (or deaths).

Fun fact: It only takes 1 trait to turn a grenadier into 100 nades, and that same trait makes super elixir an incredibly strong support option. You’d be a pretty bad engineer not to take kit refinement when you’re packing elixir gun and grenade kit. Tool kit’s extra no-cast box of nails is nice but.. I’m not gonna sugar coat it. You’re undermining the abuse potential with the child analogy – while a P/P can take a good while to produce a kill, the other setup can instantly gib any player in 1200 range with the magnet combo, so long as they don’t produce some invuln effect (or stunbreak during the magnet pull – stunbreaking during the immobilize will do nothing unless it’s an effect like rocket boots), every 21 seconds. If you wait for the kit refined barrage too, that’s a super-guaranteed kill every 30 seconds (it’s honestly overkill if the point blank barrage is doing 12-16k damage accounting for the crit chance, before you end up popping overcharged shot into a shrapnel + freeze grenade for another 5-9k damage).