Guild Wars 2

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

its like you have no idea that dps is not the numbers you see when hitting things on your screen idk.

Actually … it is. The numbers on your screen represent actual events. I played around with this and gave you a lot of leniency and came to the conclusion that you would, in order for this to work, need a minimum require 3,163 power under 100% quickness with 100% crit rate at the highest critical modifier possible in game (which includes Sigil of Cruelty, abilities from other players, specific runes, and some foodstuffs), a steady weapon fixed at maximum, all boons, and an enemy with 2,600 defense to have a shot at this. Just a shot, it’s not guaranteed.

I don’t know; that’s a lot to set-up.

I’m sure you’ll get on that though.

oh really, only 3200 power?

perfectly doable. my engi has 2686 and a few of my pieces are assassin. with 25 might and a food i already have 3536, nearly 400 more than “needed”.

I’m waiting for the video on you actually doing these 10k crits for a minute straight. Talk is cheap and honestly this is getting boring.

here is a build.

several things to note for which this website is inadequate:

• bring a druid who isnt an idiot, and poison or bleed yourself so he can give you regen while in cele avatar but keep yourself above 90% hp.
• bring a ps war who can be an idiot, but does his entire job.
• bring a rev who is an idiot, but stays in combat.
• have enough people around to guarantee 25 vuln.
• dont stop moving.
• dont dodge.
• make sure its night.
• trade sharpening stone for the relevant mob specific 10% potion.

do it yourself. i dont have video recording software and i dont like you enough.

Are you talking about power or effective power? Because those are two very different things.

Effective power is your power x (crit chance x crit damage + chance to not crit) x additional modifiers. For example, my power engi currently sits at 2599 power, but has a 46.8% crit chance, and 209.9% crit damage, giving him an effective power of 3936. Under max might and fury, taking traits into consideration…

Resting Base Bower: 3,349
Crit Chance: 46.8 +10 (High Caliber) + 10 (Hematic Focus) + 20 (fury) = 86.8%
Crit Damage: 209.9%
Crit Modifier: 1.95
Resting Effective Power: 6544
Additional Mods: x1.1 (scholar runes) x1.05 (glass cannon) x 1.07 (Shaped Charge) x 1.1 (modified ammunition*) x 1.25 (max vulnerability)
Total: 11,120 effective power.

And that is without factoring in particular teammate buffs (spotter, banners, etc), or particular weapon buffs (explosive powder, perfectly weighted, etc). For particular weapons it might as well be 12,232 effective power.

Keep in mind this is the scaled effective power assuming both crits and non-crits.

insanemaniac.2456:

here is a build.

several things to note for which this website is inadequate:

• bring a druid who isnt an idiot, and poison or bleed yourself so he can give you regen while in cele avatar but keep yourself above 90% hp.
• bring a ps war who can be an idiot, but does his entire job.
• bring a rev who is an idiot, but stays in combat.
• have enough people around to guarantee 25 vuln.
• dont stop moving.
• dont dodge.
• make sure its night.
• trade sharpening stone for the relevant mob specific 10% potion.

do it yourself. i dont have video recording software and i dont like you enough.

You didn’t even cover the bare minimum. I think your forgot that in order for it to require just 3168 power you have to have a static rifle at the top of the range, 100% quickness uptime so I have no idea where your boon duration is coming from to maintain the quickness you don’t have …

This is why Sheet DPS is so bad for you. Your build would never work. You don’t have even half of what you’d require.

Are you talking about power or effective power? Because those are two very different things.

The real effective power required is 18,232.

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

here is a build.

several things to note for which this website is inadequate:

• bring a druid who isnt an idiot, and poison or bleed yourself so he can give you regen while in cele avatar but keep yourself above 90% hp.
• bring a ps war who can be an idiot, but does his entire job.
• bring a rev who is an idiot, but stays in combat.
• have enough people around to guarantee 25 vuln.
• dont stop moving.
• dont dodge.
• make sure its night.
• trade sharpening stone for the relevant mob specific 10% potion.

do it yourself. i dont have video recording software and i dont like you enough.

You didn’t even cover the bare minimum. I think your forgot that in order for it to require just 3168 power you have to have a static rifle at the top of the range, 100% quickness uptime so I have no idea where your boon duration is coming from to maintain the quickness you don’t have …

This is why Sheet DPS is so bad for you. Your build would never work. You don’t have even half of what you’d require.

Are you talking about power or effective power? Because those are two very different things.

The real effective power required is 18,232.

it’s amazing how obstinate you are. truly amazing.

you truly do not understand that quickness is completely irrelevant to whether you can hit 10k+ on a bomb auto?

insanemaniac.2456:

it’s amazing how obstinate you are. truly amazing.

No, what is amazing is the 24k dps you don’t do.

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

it’s amazing how obstinate you are. truly amazing.

No, what is amazing is the 24k dps you don’t do.

finally, he speaks words of truth.

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

it’s amazing how obstinate you are. truly amazing.

No, what is amazing is the 24k dps you don’t do.

finally, he speaks words of truth.

You’re amazed at the damage you do not do …

First for everything.

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

it’s amazing how obstinate you are. truly amazing.

No, what is amazing is the 24k dps you don’t do.

finally, he speaks words of truth.

You’re amazed at the damage you do not do …

First for everything.

that number is referring to paper dps and generally one can only get 75-95% of it, especially as engi.

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

it’s amazing how obstinate you are. truly amazing.

No, what is amazing is the 24k dps you don’t do.

finally, he speaks words of truth.

You’re amazed at the damage you do not do …

First for everything.

that number is referring to paper dps and generally one can only get 75-95% of it, especially as engi.

As a genuine math/economics question why would you model high and then deflate your own model? Wouldn’t it make sense to model low and then inflate your own model?

In real life that’s like presuming you’ll get the highest salary in a bracket and then adjusting your budget down slightly against the expectation instead of presuming you’ll get the lowest salary bracket and once confirming your salary adjusting your lifestyle up.

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

it’s amazing how obstinate you are. truly amazing.

No, what is amazing is the 24k dps you don’t do.

finally, he speaks words of truth.

You’re amazed at the damage you do not do …

First for everything.

that number is referring to paper dps and generally one can only get 75-95% of it, especially as engi.

As a genuine math/economics question why would you model high and then deflate your own model? Wouldn’t it make sense to model low and then inflate your own model?

… because no one that does the theorycrafting in GW2 is actually interested in checking the correlation between the model and the actual. Their goal is to simply convince everyone that the meta is a specific high DPS build. Doing more than modeling these max DPS builds is against their motives; It’s simply more advantageous and way easier to ‘sell’ a model as being correct than to show it is correct.

What would ACTUALLY make sense is if models were created that MATCH ingame results, then parameters in those models adjusted to see how close they are as predictors of other scenarios. Only THEN can the models be accepted with a known level of confidence. Seems someone thought that only doing half the work backwards was a good idea, and people bought it because ‘lacking science background’.

The sad part is that all those tools are now available to do this in a reasonable way; but people’s reputation and credibility are at risk so they won’t do it. The only value we get from theorycrafting the way it’s done in GW2 is we get ceilings for specific builds; that has a questionable usefulness.

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

it’s amazing how obstinate you are. truly amazing.

No, what is amazing is the 24k dps you don’t do.

finally, he speaks words of truth.

You’re amazed at the damage you do not do …

First for everything.

that number is referring to paper dps and generally one can only get 75-95% of it, especially as engi.

As a genuine math/economics question why would you model high and then deflate your own model? Wouldn’t it make sense to model low and then inflate your own model?

In real life that’s like presuming you’ll get the highest salary in a bracket and then adjusting your budget down slightly against the expectation instead of presuming you’ll get the lowest salary bracket and once confirming your salary adjusting your lifestyle up.

because its a maximization problem, not a minimization problem.

the more dps you do, the faster you clear an instance.

as opposed to:

the less money you spend on a budget, the more money you have for other projects.

Obtena.7952:

… because no one that does the theorycrafting in GW2 is actually interested in checking the correlation between the model and the actual. Their goal is to simply convince everyone that the meta is a specific high DPS build. Doing more than modeling these max DPS builds is against their motives; It’s simply more advantageous and way easier to ‘sell’ a model as being correct than to show it is correct.

What would ACTUALLY make sense is if models were created that MATCH ingame results, then parameters in those models adjusted to see how close they are as predictors of other scenarios. Only THEN can the models be accepted with a known level of confidence. Seems someone thought that only doing half the work backwards was a good idea, and people bought it because ‘lacking science background’.

The sad part is that all those tools are now available to do this in a reasonable way; but people’s reputation and credibility are at risk so they won’t do it. The only value we get from theorycrafting the way it’s done in GW2 is we get ceilings for specific builds; that has a questionable usefulness.

If only the goal of the community was to actually discover how to best invest your time and energy instead of a popularity contest using “math” as a buzzword. I could say “I do 15k dps with my ’zerker Elixir Gun AA!” and I am almost inclined to believe people would buy it.

insanemaniac.2456:

because its a maximization problem, not a minimization problem.

the more dps you do, the faster you clear an instance.

as opposed to:

the less money you spend on a budget, the more money you have for other projects.

You inverted it. You want to know the worst case scenario, what the lowest you do, is to know how effectively you can reliably clear an instance. Your question should be “what is the least I need” not “what is the most I can do” if you want to find out how useful something actually is.

Because your example is a perfect example towards my point, the less money you spend on a budget (“what is the least I need to allocate?”) the more money you have for other projects / emergencies / and opportunities.

All of my personal modeling uses the highest toughness I know of, uses the average or even lowest end of the weapon I equip, hero panel stats as they show, and only reliable and readily applicable self-buffs. I know exactly what I bring to the table. If someone gives me a buff and I do better, then I do better, but I know for a fact that what I bring to the table can get the job done regardless of whether I get X, Y or Z. When a teammate dies my shot at success doesn’t necessarily go with him.

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

because its a maximization problem, not a minimization problem.

the more dps you do, the faster you clear an instance.

as opposed to:

the less money you spend on a budget, the more money you have for other projects.

You inverted it. You want to know the worst case scenario, what the lowest you do, is to know how effectively you can reliably clear an instance. Your question should be “what is the least I need” not “what is the most I can do” if you want to find out how useful something actually is.

Because your example is a perfect example towards my point, the less money you spend on a budget (“what is the least I need to allocate?”) the more money you have for other projects / emergencies / and opportunities.

All of my personal modeling uses the highest toughness I know of, uses the average or even lowest end of the weapon I equip, hero panel stats as they show, and only reliable and readily applicable self-buffs. I know exactly what I bring to the table. If someone gives me a buff and I do better, then I do better, but I know for a fact that what I bring to the table can get the job done regardless of whether I get X, Y or Z. When a teammate dies my shot at success doesn’t necessarily go with him.

any maximization problem can be rewritten as an equivalent minimization problem and vice versa.

now, time is a valuable commodity to most people, so minimizing time spent in an instance is desirable, and for the most part (the way this relates to gw2) minimizing time spent is equivalent to maximizing dps, because instances are completed by killing things. higher dps = thing dies faster = less time spent.

in terms of raiding, the devs are intentionally trying to throw a monkey wrench into this system by introducing mechanics as constraints upon dps: healing, tanking, control, support, and things to do. so that in order to minimize time spent, you can only maximize dps after considering how much healing, tanking, etc you need in order to not fail the instance.

dungeons were prolly originally intended to be this way as well, but personal active defenses and such suffice to fulfill the non-dps requirements without actually requiring the player to sacrifice dps, so its kind of a failure because they are too easy.

insanemaniac.2456:

any maximization problem can be rewritten as an equivalent minimization problem and vice versa.

That is completely false. Maximization problems generally use known variables and minimization problems use scenarios and hypothetical considerations. Remember that the two terms are used “backwards” in a sense, a maximization problem works with the minimum required to do something maximizing resources that are known while a minimization problem works with the theoretical minimizing the difference between the optimal and the best. Etc. etc. marginal decisions and costs.

now, time is a valuable commodity to most people, so minimizing time spent in an instance is desirable, and for the most part (the way this relates to gw2) minimizing time spent is equivalent to maximizing dps, because instances are completed by killing things. higher dps = thing dies faster = less time spent.

in terms of raiding, the devs are intentionally trying to throw a monkey wrench into this system by introducing mechanics as constraints upon dps: healing, tanking, control, support, and things to do. so that in order to minimize time spent, you can only maximize dps after considering how much healing, tanking, etc you need in order to not fail the instance.

dungeons were prolly originally intended to be this way as well, but personal active defenses and such suffice to fulfill the non-dps requirements without actually requiring the player to sacrifice dps, so its kind of a failure because they are too easy.

Which is indeed a problem of the least, not the greatest, because to find out how much DPS you can do you have to calculate the least amount of healing etc. required to allow the other members to do what they do. The less you spend on other outlets the more damage you can do with other elements. In short it’s the same example you used before with budgeting only now it’s just a giant stat/time pool instead of real money.

Optimization almost always works within scarcity which almost always works within attempts at allocative efficiency which almost always works within solving for the least and capitalizing on the rest. You cannot invert the two since solving for your theoretical maximums and then declaring losses on those maximums doesn’t answer “can we actually do it?”

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

any maximization problem can be rewritten as an equivalent minimization problem and vice versa.

That is completely false. Maximization problems generally use known variables and minimization problems use scenarios and hypothetical considerations. Remember that the two terms are used “backwards” in a sense, a maximization problem works with the minimum required to do something maximizing resources that are known while a minimization problem works with the theoretical minimizing the difference between the optimal and the best. Etc. etc. marginal decisions and costs.

now, time is a valuable commodity to most people, so minimizing time spent in an instance is desirable, and for the most part (the way this relates to gw2) minimizing time spent is equivalent to maximizing dps, because instances are completed by killing things. higher dps = thing dies faster = less time spent.

in terms of raiding, the devs are intentionally trying to throw a monkey wrench into this system by introducing mechanics as constraints upon dps: healing, tanking, control, support, and things to do. so that in order to minimize time spent, you can only maximize dps after considering how much healing, tanking, etc you need in order to not fail the instance.

dungeons were prolly originally intended to be this way as well, but personal active defenses and such suffice to fulfill the non-dps requirements without actually requiring the player to sacrifice dps, so its kind of a failure because they are too easy.

Which is indeed a problem of the least, not the greatest, because to find out how much DPS you can do you have to calculate the least amount of healing etc. required to allow the other members to do what they do. The less you spend on other outlets the more damage you can do with other elements. In short it’s the same example you used before with budgeting only now it’s just a giant stat/time pool instead of real money.

Optimization almost always works within scarcity which almost always works within attempts at allocative efficiency which almost always works within solving for the least and capitalizing on the rest. You cannot invert the two since solving for your theoretical maximums and then declaring losses on those maximums doesn’t answer “can we actually do it?”

you are clueless. please read a textbook. if you would still like to argue about how false my first statement is, take it up with any author of the textbook you read.

insanemaniac.2456:

you are clueless. please read a textbook. if you would still like to argue about how false my first statement is, take it up with any author of the textbook you read.

You are absolutely right.

actually, every maximization problem lives in a space and there is an associated dual space in which lives an equivalent minimization problem.

the reason that you might want to reformulate the problem is that perhaps the dual space decouples constraints. or perhaps a simple change to your frame of reference would do the same which would not require reformulation (but not always).

this is textbook material. take a grad level class on optimization.

insanemaniac.2456:

actually, every maximization problem lives in a space and there is an associated dual space in which lives an equivalent minimization problem.

the reason that you might want to reformulate the problem is that perhaps the dual space decouples constraint. or perhaps a simple change to your frame of reference would do the same which would not require reformulation (but not always).

Jesus, it’s GW2, not theoretical physics.

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

actually, every maximization problem lives in a space and there is an associated dual space in which lives an equivalent minimization problem.

the reason that you might want to reformulate the problem is that perhaps the dual space decouples constraint. or perhaps a simple change to your frame of reference would do the same which would not require reformulation (but not always).

Jesus, it’s GW2, not theoretical physics.

LOL

youre the one bringing this stuff up and being completely wrong. and im talking math here, not physics.

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

actually, every maximization problem lives in a space and there is an associated dual space in which lives an equivalent minimization problem.

the reason that you might want to reformulate the problem is that perhaps the dual space decouples constraint. or perhaps a simple change to your frame of reference would do the same which would not require reformulation (but not always).

Jesus, it’s GW2, not theoretical physics.

LOL

youre the one bringing this stuff up and being completely wrong. and im talking math here, not physics.

GW2 is a SNG. The domains are tiny. You need no knowledge of anything beyond 6th grade math to model the game because it’s all linear. I mean not only is your understanding of modeling kitten but then why even bother when it doesn’t require you understand anything about sets and comparisons.

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

actually, every maximization problem lives in a space and there is an associated dual space in which lives an equivalent minimization problem.

the reason that you might want to reformulate the problem is that perhaps the dual space decouples constraint. or perhaps a simple change to your frame of reference would do the same which would not require reformulation (but not always).

Jesus, it’s GW2, not theoretical physics.

LOL

youre the one bringing this stuff up and being completely wrong. and im talking math here, not physics.

GW2 is a SNG. The domains are tiny. You need no knowledge of anything beyond 6th grade math to model the game because it’s all linear. I mean not only is your understanding of modeling kitten but then why even bother when it doesn’t require you understand anything about sets and comparisons.

you deflect when stared down by your own ignorance instead of trying to erase it.

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

actually, every maximization problem lives in a space and there is an associated dual space in which lives an equivalent minimization problem.

the reason that you might want to reformulate the problem is that perhaps the dual space decouples constraint. or perhaps a simple change to your frame of reference would do the same which would not require reformulation (but not always).

Jesus, it’s GW2, not theoretical physics.

LOL

youre the one bringing this stuff up and being completely wrong. and im talking math here, not physics.

GW2 is a SNG. The domains are tiny. You need no knowledge of anything beyond 6th grade math to model the game because it’s all linear. I mean not only is your understanding of modeling kitten but then why even bother when it doesn’t require you understand anything about sets and comparisons.

you deflect when stared down by your own ignorance instead of trying to erase it.

Not at all.

As a matter of fact that is the problem.

I keep catering to you with long explanations as to why you are wrong and you can only manage to post a link you genuinely show you don’t understand or show that you aren’t paying attention when you post a damage build but forget that you require 100% quickness uptime for it to work.

You just keep going because you genuinely think you are correct and have faith in your models rather than evidence or proof of them. You even create the “God” problem where if you don’t achieve your 18~24k dps it’s because your adequate capture variance is up to 25%!

So of the 18k if you do say, 13.5k, that’s just “how it happened” and was “expected results”. Wut? The entire point of a model is to predict and a variation that huge is a horrible prediction esp. when considering … And here I am explaining it again.

Nevermind.

DGraves.3720:

Not at all.

As a matter of fact that is the problem.

I keep catering to you with long explanations as to why you are wrong and you can only manage to post a link you genuinely show you don’t understand or show that you aren’t paying attention when you post a damage build but forget that you require 100% quickness uptime for it to work.

You just keep going because you genuinely think you are correct and have faith in your models rather than evidence or proof of them. You even create the “God” problem where if you don’t achieve your 18~24k dps it’s because your adequate capture variance is up to 25%!

So of the 18k if you do say, 13.5k, that’s just “how it happened” and was “expected results”. Wut? The entire point of a model is to predict and a variation that huge is a horrible prediction esp. when considering … And here I am explaining it again.

Nevermind.

quite frankly, quickness is irrelevant. i did not forget about it. the fact that you are now harping on it shows you arent thinking enough — you can easily maintain 100% uptime with a chrono but it adds 0 damage per hit, so providing a build that meets your threshold of >10k autos suffices.

you dont get that.

you dont get that dps is not dph.

you dont get that averaging your dps over your rotation will give you higher dps than a rotation of autos because autos do half the dps, and for some neurotic reason you want to construct your model based on the worst possible conditions. conditions which will be inadequate to complete any of the content in question, unless for some weird reason youre talking about easy open world bullkitten and havent said so.

you dont understand that simply multiplying a problem by -1 to invert it and call it a max problem instead of a min problem is not the same thing as reformulating it in the dual space, where you have to consider that the quantities you are maxing and minning change (which is a physically relevant distinction, so at least you might have some concept of that since you thought i was referring to physics and not math).

and finally, you dont understand that skill levels and case-by-case encounter variations vary widely enough that its perfectly reasonable to have an extremely high variance for dps on a rotation that includes skills from 5 weapon sets, and youre rationalizing your lack of comprehension by calling it faith on my part. which is just plain weird.

And I’m just sittin’ here, reading every post, lookin’ like this:

xD

So funny to see the kittening match about optimization, then see same people not acknowledge that the currently accepted approach for predicting DPS in this game isn’t completely flawed in the first place.

Theorycrafters: “Here is your meta; we have a complex Excel calculation that says it’s the best”
Players: “OK, we tried it, we don’t get the same numbers you did”
Theorycrafters: “Well, you’re not supposed to, we know the calculation results don’t match what happens ingame”
Players: “Maybe you’re wrong? How do you account for things like DPS downtime, etc…”
Theorycrafters: “You don’t know what you’re talking about; those are not significant factors”
Players: “OK, so how do we trust your calculations prove this is the meta”?
Theorycrafters: “Because it’s Math … noob”
Players: ???

Obtena.7952:

So funny to see the kittening match about optimization, then see same people not acknowledge that the currently accepted approach for predicting DPS in this game isn’t completely flawed in the first place.

then what is better? im open to being convinced if you think you know so well.

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

So funny to see the kittening match about optimization, then see same people not acknowledge that the currently accepted approach for predicting DPS in this game isn’t completely flawed in the first place.

then what is better? im open to being convinced if you think you know so well.

I already explained it. Frankly, no one gives a Rat’s behind what any calculation tells you because it’s just a ceiling value that ignores real game factors. Players are going to be WAY more apt to listen to someone who is promoting meta that actually measures DPS from real gameplay (something you can easily do with the Jaxnx tool and demonstrate to people) than inventing it in Excel.

OK soo my question is this.

If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?

and then you started to use the bomb kit …

Xyonon.3987:

and then you started to use the bomb kit …

lol god after all this youd think i would learn.

insanemaniac.2456:

Xyonon.3987:

and then you started to use the bomb kit …

lol god after all this youd think i would learn.

hawr? ö.ö

Bronze Knight.9231:

OK soo my question is this.

If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?

You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.

Obtena.7952:

Bronze Knight.9231:

OK soo my question is this.

If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?

You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.

you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

Bronze Knight.9231:

OK soo my question is this.

If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?

You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.

you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.

??? No one said you were. Then again, unless I’m mistaken, I don’t see anyone releasing DPS values for non-meta builds using the DPS meters either so … there’s that.

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

Bronze Knight.9231:

OK soo my question is this.

If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?

You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.

you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.

??? No one said you were. Then again, unless I’m mistaken, I don’t see anyone releasing DPS values for non-meta builds using the DPS meters either so … there’s that.

for one thing, the numbers for all the autoattacks are on ziggys spreadsheet calculations earlier in the thread.

for another, why would someone put up a video on youtube that isnt “the best”?

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

Bronze Knight.9231:

OK soo my question is this.

If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?

You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.

you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.

??? No one said you were. Then again, unless I’m mistaken, I don’t see anyone releasing DPS values for non-meta builds using the DPS meters either so … there’s that.

for one thing, the numbers for all the autoattacks are on ziggys spreadsheet calculations earlier in the thread.

for another, why would someone put up a video on youtube that isnt “the best”?

For one thing, calculations are not measurements of DPS ingame … if you been paying attention you would understand that. At this point, clinging to calculations is just irrelevant now DPS can be measured.

For the other thing, you don’t need a video on YouTube to say what the DPS is for a specific build.

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

Bronze Knight.9231:

OK soo my question is this.

If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?

You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.

you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.

??? No one said you were. Then again, unless I’m mistaken, I don’t see anyone releasing DPS values for non-meta builds using the DPS meters either so … there’s that.

for one thing, the numbers for all the autoattacks are on ziggys spreadsheet calculations earlier in the thread.

for another, why would someone put up a video on youtube that isnt “the best”?

For one thing, calculations are not measurements of DPS ingame … if you been paying attention you would understand that. At this point, clinging to calculations is just irrelevant now DPS can be measured.

For the other thing, you don’t need a video on YouTube to say what the DPS is for a specific build.

why dont you go do it?

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

Bronze Knight.9231:

OK soo my question is this.

If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?

You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.

you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.

??? No one said you were. Then again, unless I’m mistaken, I don’t see anyone releasing DPS values for non-meta builds using the DPS meters either so … there’s that.

for one thing, the numbers for all the autoattacks are on ziggys spreadsheet calculations earlier in the thread.

for another, why would someone put up a video on youtube that isnt “the best”?

For one thing, calculations are not measurements of DPS ingame … if you been paying attention you would understand that. At this point, clinging to calculations is just irrelevant now DPS can be measured.

For the other thing, you don’t need a video on YouTube to say what the DPS is for a specific build.

why dont you go do it?

Like I said (again, not paying attention I see??) he can install the DPS meter and see for himself. Why would I do it if he can check it on his own? I don’t even know what build he wants to know about.

As long as it is an auto attack – calculations are precise. You can also do the rotation ingame regardless of buffs and then scale it up to full buffed values, those would be exact aswell.

I’ve been fighting sabetha today and hit her with 9-10k bomb autos, Pretty much what I expected. Yet I have to agree that my armor type expections of the enemies might be wrong.

I tested by throwing tons of nades on each boss to find out the differences between them, wich fitted the differences of pvp golems → light medium heavy / 2000 2200 2600. But I start to think of different numbers with same % differences like those → 2200 2600 3000.

TL;DR: The values in my spreadsheet should have been for gorsy but fit more to sabby.

greez!

The question here isn’t if the damage output calculated from one skill or a string of them is precise. The real question of interest is the correlation between the DPS you get from a build playing the game and the calculation; they can’t be exact because the calculations are simply max possible DPS outputs; realistically, you can’t get the max possible, or very few people can.

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

Bronze Knight.9231:

OK soo my question is this.

If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?

You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.

you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.

??? No one said you were. Then again, unless I’m mistaken, I don’t see anyone releasing DPS values for non-meta builds using the DPS meters either so … there’s that.

for one thing, the numbers for all the autoattacks are on ziggys spreadsheet calculations earlier in the thread.

for another, why would someone put up a video on youtube that isnt “the best”?

For one thing, calculations are not measurements of DPS ingame … if you been paying attention you would understand that. At this point, clinging to calculations is just irrelevant now DPS can be measured.

For the other thing, you don’t need a video on YouTube to say what the DPS is for a specific build.

why dont you go do it?

Like I said (again, not paying attention I see??) he can install the DPS meter and see for himself. Why would I do it if he can check it on his own? I don’t even know what build he wants to know about.

no i mean, youre complaining that no one wants to go make videos showing how much dps they can put out… so why dont you go do it?

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

Bronze Knight.9231:

OK soo my question is this.

If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?

You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.

you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.

??? No one said you were. Then again, unless I’m mistaken, I don’t see anyone releasing DPS values for non-meta builds using the DPS meters either so … there’s that.

for one thing, the numbers for all the autoattacks are on ziggys spreadsheet calculations earlier in the thread.

for another, why would someone put up a video on youtube that isnt “the best”?

For one thing, calculations are not measurements of DPS ingame … if you been paying attention you would understand that. At this point, clinging to calculations is just irrelevant now DPS can be measured.

For the other thing, you don’t need a video on YouTube to say what the DPS is for a specific build.

why dont you go do it?

Like I said (again, not paying attention I see??) he can install the DPS meter and see for himself. Why would I do it if he can check it on his own? I don’t even know what build he wants to know about.

no i mean, youre complaining that no one wants to go make videos showing how much dps they can put out… so why dont you go do it?

No I actually DIDN’T complain that no one makes videos showing how much DPS they put out. I don’t care about videos; you don’t need to make videos to measure DPS. Am I talking to a wall here or what?

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

Bronze Knight.9231:

OK soo my question is this.

If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?

You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.

you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.

??? No one said you were. Then again, unless I’m mistaken, I don’t see anyone releasing DPS values for non-meta builds using the DPS meters either so … there’s that.

for one thing, the numbers for all the autoattacks are on ziggys spreadsheet calculations earlier in the thread.

for another, why would someone put up a video on youtube that isnt “the best”?

For one thing, calculations are not measurements of DPS ingame … if you been paying attention you would understand that. At this point, clinging to calculations is just irrelevant now DPS can be measured.

For the other thing, you don’t need a video on YouTube to say what the DPS is for a specific build.

why dont you go do it?

Like I said (again, not paying attention I see??) he can install the DPS meter and see for himself. Why would I do it if he can check it on his own? I don’t even know what build he wants to know about.

no i mean, youre complaining that no one wants to go make videos showing how much dps they can put out… so why dont you go do it?

No I actually DIDN’T complain that no one makes videos showing how much DPS they put out. I don’t care about videos; you don’t need to make videos to measure DPS. Am I talking to a wall here or what?

yes, youre talking to a wall. obviously.

you keep saying its pointless to do calculations now that jaxnx and gw2dps are here, and you seem to be getting mad at people for providing calculations and asking for videos of people doing this ingame instead.

so.. again, you can go do this yourself. so why not? nothing stopping you. and if you make a video, it helps the cause.

Obtena.7952:

The question here isn’t if the damage output calculated from one skill or a string of them is precise. The real question of interest is the correlation between the DPS you get from a build playing the game and the calculation; they can’t be exact because the calculations are simply max possible DPS outputs; realistically, you can’t get the max possible, or very few people can.

The damage of each skill in the list is isolated and correct if you look just at itself. You could stick a few skills of the list together to create a rotation, but that’s where the mess starts.

What you get by doing that is some “happy-world” unrealistic hyper damage. Yet I can think about that too and calcualte expected human flaws aswell things you might want to do such as seeker pushing etc, to achieve a much more realistic result.

I will definitly do a theory max dps rota, but just for fun. What my main work will be is the list of skills aswell true rotations for each boss.

Greez Ziggy ^^

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

insanemaniac.2456:

Obtena.7952:

Bronze Knight.9231:

OK soo my question is this.

If I’m playing mostly solo story missions and PVE HOT zones on an internet connection that pings at 1,000 to 2,000 on a good day how much DPS am I really losing by not using the meta builds/Grenade Kit?

You can measure this yourself if you get the Jaxnx DPS meter … and you will have to if you want your question answered because the theorycrafters aren’t interested in anything BUT the builds they want to promote as meta.

you know, its really easy to camp bombs or ft, regardless of ping. its not some secret were trying to keep.

??? No one said you were. Then again, unless I’m mistaken, I don’t see anyone releasing DPS values for non-meta builds using the DPS meters either so … there’s that.

for one thing, the numbers for all the autoattacks are on ziggys spreadsheet calculations earlier in the thread.

for another, why would someone put up a video on youtube that isnt “the best”?

For one thing, calculations are not measurements of DPS ingame … if you been paying attention you would understand that. At this point, clinging to calculations is just irrelevant now DPS can be measured.

For the other thing, you don’t need a video on YouTube to say what the DPS is for a specific build.

why dont you go do it?

Like I said (again, not paying attention I see??) he can install the DPS meter and see for himself. Why would I do it if he can check it on his own? I don’t even know what build he wants to know about.

no i mean, youre complaining that no one wants to go make videos showing how much dps they can put out… so why dont you go do it?

No I actually DIDN’T complain that no one makes videos showing how much DPS they put out. I don’t care about videos; you don’t need to make videos to measure DPS. Am I talking to a wall here or what?

yes, youre talking to a wall. obviously.

you keep saying its pointless to do calculations now that jaxnx and gw2dps are here, and you seem to be getting mad at people for providing calculations and asking for videos of people doing this ingame instead.

so.. again, you can go do this yourself. so why not? nothing stopping you. and if you make a video, it helps the cause.

I’m not really sure what you’re asking me to do here; I use the DPS meter all the time to see what my DPS is and I don’t know what kind of video you want me to make; the output from the DPS meter is just a number. You want a video of a number on a screen?

My original point was pretty simple and it spawned from you asking me what is a better approach to get DPS than calculations. I’m not sure where you get that I’m needing videos that I can make myself.

Maybe it is because I’m one of those guys who does the calculations, but it has been my understanding that the ideal circumstances would never actually be reached, as they would require perfect play with perfect RNG when fighting against certain bosses.

Let me put this in simile: There is a language in the world that can be heard from 10 miles away. It is a whistling language of… Madagascar I think. Anyway, it holds the Guinness Book of World Records record for the furthest a conversation can be heard, completely unaided. However, this record did have a few stipulations to it:
#1: This was at night
#2: Over still waters
#3: On a night with no wind or other interference.

While someone can say that this shouldn’t count, due to the rarity at which seafaring whistlers will need to speak to each other, that ignores a critical factor that no one else was able to hold a conversation over 10 miles of still water. When analyzed on the margins, it is obvious that the whistling language is the best at long distance communication.

Likewise, most theorycrafting is done in a sterile environment, on the margin. This means that we are be looking at individual skill contributions, and pairing them with other individual skills to find out which one has the most effect. Yes, in practical situations you will need to dodge and heal, and your attacks will miss, or your fingers will slip, or your teammate will go down, or any number of unusual things will happen. But this doesn’t mean that, suddenly, Elixir U is better Grenades. Even if you have to spend half the fight dodging and rezzing, it doesn’t change which skill causes more damage.

Thus, while realistically the max DPS builds won’t get their maximum DPS, for any practical sense they are still the best builds and rotations you can run. The only time that changes is when there is a mechanical complication that would force one skill to be better than another. I.E. a boss with near permanent projectile reflection would render grenades nigh useless. This, however, is not license to take any Max-DPS builds and sweep them under the carpet without further thought. What this is, is encouragement to use discretion, to critically think about your predicament and make a judgement for which utility or weapon will be better at the time.

The whole “listing the maximum” thing isn’t unique to just theorycrafters. Most of the world does it, actually. For example, your car’s MPG is listed assuming it is running at 45 MPH on a straight asphalt road, instead of crawling along in gridlock. Your internet connection will not always be at it’s maximum MBps. Your horse will not always output a horsepower of power. Etc. and so on. I hate to be the one to tell you this… actually no, I love to be the one who tells you this: get ready for a world of disappointment, as nearly every product is marketed in ideal conditions, and will rarely ever reach them.

^very good post, totally worth reading.

Wahoo!!

Yeah it was good post and I agree with much of it. I still see an opportunity to expand the scope and improve build characterization efforts. I’m still not convinced that even if a build is best DPS on paper, under what scenarios does it significantly change and perhaps even NOT be best DPS in the game