Guild Wars 2

Well, after some testing on the target dummies in Lions Arch last night I’ve come across that Grenade skills have not only been reduced in their damage (which is somewhat ok) but what is worse have a random spread pattern applied.

That means, unless you center your AoE circle and are standing still a random amount of 1-3 grenades hit with no way of you actually controlling it unless absolutely centering your AoE cricle on the target .

Meaning if you place the AoE circle @ the outer bounds of the target a random amount of grenades hit. I haven’t done any math about that yet but around ~25-40% chance that only 2 of em are hitting their target even with the Grenadier Trait.

I guess it ’s due to the wide spread pattern that is applied now (and seemed absolutely random to me even while standing still at around ~200-600 distance). It wasn ’t like this about a half year ago. I noticed that odd changes around then @ underwater combat (thread is somewhere lost in these subforums) and it seems like they silently merged that changes to overwater combat too.

So AreaNet – what ’s the reason to apply a random spread that is not taking in any kind of distance, or movement into consideration to a SKILL SHOT (!) that is not automatically targeted and only does a resonable amount of damage right now (compared to overall damage and similiar skills)?

To make things worse, when moving around the spread is even more random and sometime the grenades are flying oddly sidewards – not in any direction you’ve aimed at at all. And no I’m not an unexperienced grenade user, as I’ve been using them to great success since the headstart.

I do understand that you don’t want grenades to be overpowered like they were a half year ago, but that spread pattern makes it a gamble that is not controllable by skill most of the time.

And a little side question:
Is it just how I feel about it or did the improved travel speed got rolled back as well?

Bug Report can be found in the Game Bugs Subforum:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Engineer-Grenades-Faulty-Hit-Detection

Edit:

Below is a link to my thread from 7 months ago which provides statistical input concerning the first appearance of those odd behaviours in underwater combat (land combat was perfectly fine at this time).

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Grenade-Underwater-New-Hitsystem-13-loss/first#post939505

Felt this too, especcialy underwater

I’ve created an Bug-Report in the Game-Bug Subforum and linked it here. Keep discussions about it here please.

Cheers!

imaginary.6241:

I’ve created an Bug-Report in the Game-Bug Subforum and linked it here. Keep discussions about it here please.

Cheers!

Regardless of how I feel about the issue at hand—it’s clearly not a bug, and labeling this thread as “faulty hit detection” is downright misleading. Wherever the grenades end up, they collide and act properly (barring destroyable structures, anyway).

So this is why my nadebuild has been causing troubles in wvw.
Especially when im moving around a lot, throwing nades sideways etc and underwater as said.
I agree, it wasnt like this months ago…
Thankyou for testing, byebye nadebuild, hello build 10.0

Seems like it ’s on their screen now …

Response Via Email (Chantal) 07/28/2013 04:09 PM
Hello (name removed),

Thank you for contacting the Guild Wars 2 Support Team.

I understand that you find a possible bug with the grenade skills not being precise when targeting with the Area of Effect. We appreciate your submission. Someone will be answering your particular questions on your forum post as soon as possible.

If you have any other questions or concerns about any other issue please, let us know.

Regards,

GM Sheyla
Guild Wars 2 Support Team

And @Weirwynn.2390:

Weirwynn.2390:

imaginary.6241:

I’ve created an Bug-Report in the Game-Bug Subforum and linked it here. Keep discussions about it here please.

Cheers!

Regardless of how I feel about the issue at hand—it’s clearly not a bug, and labeling this thread as “faulty hit detection” is downright misleading. Wherever the grenades end up, they collide and act properly (barring destroyable structures, anyway).

See the big Questionmark there?

Like I explained above, I’ve been using grenades ever since the Game came out (yes I was absence for a few months). I’ve first tracked smiliar changes (intended or not) in Underwatercombat 7 months ago:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Grenade-Underwater-New-Hitsystem-13-loss/first#post939505

That system now seems to apply for regular combat on land as well. It didn’t 7 months ago, there is nothing to be found in the Changelogs concerning it and even if it ‘s intended I don’t get why it should “work as intended” that way. My label is clearly correct even if it might sound a little bit overdramatic for some people.

I did use all channels properly and applied some testing 7 months ago, and right now (in addition to my experience in pratice that I’m not be able to put into written words that easily) so I believe it ‘s ok to label it that way and kindly ask for a developer ’s repsonse properly without just pointlessly ranting around (for example: NERF XYZ) “discussing” it with some other players which most of the time don’t take the least bit of time to track down something in detail and just provide superlatives (aka It works for me! – It doesn’t work for me! FIX THAT!).

[beware-joke]

Lets make all other Multi-Hit-Skills hit randomly – while being in range – as well.

Like Hundred Blades. Yeha that ‘s not a Bug! It ’s intended that the Blade sometimes wents trought the body, without it doing any damage. Think of it as an imaginary blade that wasn’t where you aimed before!

[/joke]

Are you being serious?

You’re complaining because grenades have spread?

Grab 3 tennis balls and throw them at a target, I will bet you that each time you throw them they will spread differently, you may as well ask for homing grenades.

I don’t typically make these sort of replies but to me this just seems stupid…

What I’m asking for is a reduced spread (= AoE circles!) and a fix of the traveling / hit system that is even more faulty and random while moving (not speaking about underwater combat).

I’m not even asking for homing aka autotargeting
like 95% of the rest of the game already has.

While your real life example might sound reasonable at first:

a) Try that while being <1 feet away guess if you miss it then while fixating on a single spot you must be really bad at aiming.

b) In real life you are able to actualy train and workaround such obstacles. You can’t do that in a Game with the above mechanics that apply randomly!

And even if in any sort you ’d have to make it on equal grounds and not make 95% work with autotargeting at 100% hitrate and a few ones that have 75-90% Hitrate. That ’s just inconsitent. Well, that put aside even when you ’d decide to let it rest randomly the skill itself should return more then the other ones that hit 100% of the time.

You get me? That ’s eSports my friend. Equal grounds, or at least somewhat. Not real life, where the banker challenges you with a Ferrari while you’re forced to drive a VW Beetle.

Your input provided was not helpfull at all but showing what the community of this game nowadays has become. No wonder why the developers fear all those NERF thread guys and ignore (put them on the bottom line) all those great, detailed and helpfull bug reports around.

But, no offense, fellow Engineer.

Maybe you could provide some helpfull input and testing as well,
like any reasonable Engineer should do ?

I’ll continue to do some testings and even prepare to do some recordings of the mentioned bugs to put it to better understanding visually as most people tend to fastskip text or don’t get what I’m tring to explain unless they experienced it themself …

To me the ‘nades are working as intended, they’re ground targeted and have random spread, now if they where player targeted and had spread then I’d think it wasn’t working correctly. I just see it as the physics working, to an extent. And trust me, I’m nothing like the majority of the community and that why I added “I don’t normally post these replies”.

I suppose they could always reduce the deviation on the grenades but further you throw them the more spread you get, much like the rangers longbow that does more damage at longer distances however the spread is increased.

@Bulent
I think the 1 sec burn on flamethrower is there so we can’t stack an insane amount of burning on one foe considering it is the most powerful condition (Considering necro’s got 4 sec on crit every 10 sec and people cried -though now nerfed).
Don’t get me started on the “mortar” and when trait-ed you throw grenades further lol…

The grenades still feel very powerful and arguably one of the best AoE methods in game, I haven’t run SPvP in a long time (Hate how the meta works) I mainly do WvW/PvE so this maybe why I don’t see it as a problem.

imaginary.6241:

Like I explained above, I’ve been using grenades ever since the Game came out (yes I was absence for a few months). I’ve first tracked smiliar changes (intended or not) in Underwatercombat 7 months ago:

It’s called a nerf.

This reason is why you’ll see more engineers running into melee combat with grenades. They have a much less random spread at minimum range – especially with Poison Grenades. Some testing has resulted where frequently, two of the three grenades won’t even fall within the targeted AoE that was placed. On the bright side, the land variant of Grenade Barrage seems to be unaffected by the changes.

This effect has both pros and cons to it, as they’re not as useful for spike damage (unless in cramped quarters) due to them not all hitting at once, but tend to be a tad more difficult to evade thanks to its large spread. The result? A lot of wasted potential damage and another ‘random’ aspect of the class serious PvPers will tend to avoid utilizing.

Not an unreasonable complaint that grenades dont follow the already small Aoe radius as it is. But im afraid its a feature, much like Poison Dart Volley missing half the time or more due to unwieldy spread is a feature.

Apparently stuff working like kitten is a feature for Engineers.

A little bit OT but so that Posion Dart Volley isn’t just me? I though it happened especially with Coated Bullets but didn’t look into it any further yet.

imaginary.6241:

A little bit OT but so that Posion Dart Volley isn’t just me? I though it happened especially with Coated Bullets but didn’t look into it any further yet.

No, its a built in failure of the ability sold as a feature.

imaginary.6241:

A little bit OT but so that Posion Dart Volley isn’t just me? I though it happened especially with Coated Bullets but didn’t look into it any further yet.

Poison Dart Volley’s random spread is well known and is just one of the vagaries of the skill. I wouldn’t recommend using it at all unless you’re within 300 or so range just to make sure that more than half the shots hit. Past that range, just stick to Static Shot or the auto-attack. You won’t get much out of it otherwise.

Terrahero.9358:

imaginary.6241:

A little bit OT but so that Posion Dart Volley isn’t just me? I though it happened especially with Coated Bullets but didn’t look into it any further yet.

No, its a built in failure of the ability sold as a feature.

What he means is, that just like you can sidestep and arrow you can move out of the way of poison darts.

So well, just to update you guys:

I haven’t got a response yet (unless I’ve been told, see above).
Let ’s wait a little bit more …

Still no response …

The lack of response probably is your answer.

This seems to be a design decision not a bug. Engs are considered balanced in PvP with how grenades work now – which means this is unlikely to change.

(Personally, I agree with your frustration. As an oceanic player with .25s ping, the way targeting works for grenades makes them almost unusable for me in many situations. I’d love to see this changed, but just have to accept that Anet have other higher priorities.)

They might be busy but as a GM forwarded it they ‘re at least bound to answer it sometime. So I’ll keep bumping it up (in a reasonable timeframe).

I meant to write a post about this but underwater my nades fly with a gigantic spread..so large that only 1 need hit and the rest fly in opposite directions , they ALL hit ONLY if the person stops moving…its like guardians old scepter 1 but with 3 orbs trying to trap 1 target so they split up and make a huge radius around it lol!

Anet, can u give us an option on grenade auto target like it is on underwater to use on land as well? Having a hard time loosing my cursor everytime on fast ground targetting options, and if i use without it, i’m gonna click too many times.

I can confirm the bug (1000+ hours played as engineer). It is truly annoying underwater. Grenade barrage is useless skill underwater unless the enemy is inside your character model (closer than melee range). At long range only one of the 3 grenades hits the same target due that massive spread, meaning that the total damage is like… wet noodles, even with all the traits. Grenades were (notice) our best weapon underwater. Currently I am using 4 kits underwater. And rotating between them + harpoon gun for maximum damage and utility. There is one down side to my method. My left hand gets very sore, so I am forced to take breaks. 4 kit engi = bye bye left hand. Playing any other 7 profession feels like brain on vacation and left hand needs to do less presses even as a D/D ele.

Also it is very annoying that grenade kit #1, grenade, doesn’t remove blind. If you are blinded you need to use other grenade kit skills or swap to another weapon and swap back (few seconds wasted).

Please fix this soon.

Grenades aren’t nearly rewarding enough atm, not considering the ease with which other classes can get similar results.

Update: Still waiting for any new on that.

There’s a guy from the QA team responding to a lot of threads on the Game Bugs board. If you put this there, he might see it.

To tell you the truth, I don’t think the grenade spread is a bug. I’ve found that when I hit dead center in an enemy’s target ring, most if not all the grenades hit. I thought it was peculiar and might be the “leet engi learning curve” showing up. but I don’t think that’s a bug. What I think is a bug is when you have someone targeted, and their info bar (with title, buffs, conditions and hitpoints) appears at the top of the screen, and blocks your targeting rings/mouse position, so you end up throwing your grenades at your feet. When I throw at enemies without having someone targeted, the grenades actually go to their intended destination . This info-bar blocking, however, tends to happen with all ground targeted skills and I don’t think it only effects engineers. If you’ve been away for a while, I can see why you’d be so adamant about this being a bug. But with our spread of issues to this class, I’d say grenades is working fine. (don’t get me wrong, I’d be happy if grenade kit got a little more user friendly, I just don’t think this is a bug.)