[EG] Ethereal Guardians
Can Flamethrower be Viable Post-Patch?
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FT most weak in front of the face of Retaliation. Nades – lesser.
Retaliation does not discriminate what attack you are using. It’s a flat rate modified by the source’s Power. If a Guardian has 3000 Power, every time he’s hit you’ll take over 400 damage. Whether you’re using the FT or the Grenade Kit.
If the Flamethrower is inherently “weak” in the face of Retaliation, it is purely because it is more efficient at tagging multiple targets than the Grenade Kit is. The funny thing is that this is actually a strength of the kit yet a lot of players use Retaliation as a counter argument against that. Just as you recently have.
Which is why I brought up the Grenade Kit and that it is just as badly affected by it as the Flamethrower is. So what is it? A useless kit with no viability in the sPvP meta or WvW? Or is it a powerful AoE kit that can tag so many targets it kills you with Retaliation if you’re not careful?
It can’t be both.
I’m talking about massive fights here, so put down your useless speech about solo gankin.
What speech? I never said anything about “solo ganking.” And even if I did, the Flamethrower as an AoE kit isn’t really suitable for that. Confusion spam builds with the Tool Kit are way better at that.
There are AoE kits and there are single-target kits. That is the definition of “balance” that people in this class folder seem to stumble around.
All classes affected by Retaliation at the same level as Engis? Yes? Thanks for explaining of your game experience – zero experience.
I said all classes that are built for AoE damage are affected by Retaliation the same as the Engineer is. Explain to me how this is not the case? Where on the Wiki does is say that Retaliation hits Engineers—and Engineers only? Is there a hidden Engineer modifier taken into account that I am not aware of?
If a class is not as badly affected by Retaliation as we are, that is solely because they do not dish out as strong AoE as we do. They, to put it simply, do not hit as many targets. Your job as an AoE DPS player is to control the output of your AoE and know when to back off. In other games it’s about drawing aggro. In this one it’s about mitigating Retaliation.
I don’t mean to crudely suggest that it is a L2P problem, but, well … there it is.
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
(edited by Phineas Poe.3018)
@the OP: Viable? Most definitely. Optimal? I don’t think anyone is trying to claim that…
I’ve already said a lot on this topic:
I’ve begun thinking of FT as less of a full kit and more of an Air-Blast-on-a-stick. 15 seconds is a great cooldown for an AoE knockback.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Knockback
It helps to think of it in terms of another, more different http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Throw_Mine . In those terms, you’re trading a blast finisher for a -3 second on the knockback cooldown, an additional instant blind (Smoke Vent), and positive synergy with kit refinement.I’d love to hear everyone else’s thoughts on the flamethrower at 80. I’m having a blast so far.
Air Blast provides knockback redundancy with Overcharged shot, allowing the latter to be saved as condition removal, and to sometimes send an enemy REALLY far when they’re used together.
The FT kit refinement is arguably the best part about the FT, providing an on-demand aoe burn and a condition removal (likely bugged, but who knows?). Between the kit refinement swaps for FT and elixir gun + Super Elixir for point removal, Overcharged shot for snares, and healing turret for condition bombs, the 3rd U slot is freed up for a stunbreak. Omnom ghost bars and the sigil give you something to exploit all that extra crit with. All this would be decent if FT damage was reasonable!
Despite all those positives, I still consider FT to be third best in role: It’s basically an anti-melee melee kit on a class with only 1 gap closer. This is the same problem that bomb kit and tool kit have, except that bomb kit has BoB, smoke bomb, and glue bomb as excellent standalone reasons to bring the kit, and the last 3 bomb skills scale better than FT for both power and condition damage. Toolkit is perhaps best-in-class of the 3 (except in condition builds. that belongs to bombs) with the same strengths and weaknesses, except Gear Shield, Throw Wrench, and Magnet give you something to do against ranged enemies without leaving the kit.
I feel that while better damage would make the Flamethrower viable, it will need more than just that to make it competitive with the utility of our other kits.
and
Why does it need to be used at 1500 range to have a place over the Grenade Kit? The Grenade Kit is great at what it does, but you are no where near as durable/safe at close range.
The “durable/safe” aspect of the FT is completely negated with even half-way decent kiting skills. Even on my war and guard, I’m rarely standing toe-to-toe with mobs even with melee weapons; using PvP reflexes to dance in/out of melee range between attacks lets you solo group pve mobs quite easily even without any ranged weapons slotted at all. Since the targeting on flame jet and flame blast makes you face your target, you can’t really kite as effectively.
None of the above prevents me from using the kit in PvE, PvP, and three dubs though…
All of that being said, I feel that the fundamental issue with the kit is in not really damage-related with the recent buffs to the kit. I feel that the basic problem is that the flamethrower is far too similar to the bomb kit in terms of what it brings to the table. There’s simply too much overlap between fire field, knock back, and blind on both kits. THAT is the main reason why the condition removal on the old kit refinement had value: it let the kit bring something that would be otherwise hard to fit into a build, and it was something that the bomb kit didn’t bring. That’s ALSO why the original juggernaut had value as well (even though it was OP): stability is somewhat hard to get on this class.
I feel that the only thing that this kit needs is something distinct and preferably scarce on the class such as stability, condition removal, boon stripping, ect… I’m being intentionally vague because the specifics don’t really matter, as long as the addition is useful and thematic.
Other than that, I genuinely feel that the kit is “almost there”.
(edited by Silentsins.3726)
You can recognize Retal on FT faster than you can with Grenades.
With a grenade explosion on a retal group, you can be hit for retal 15 times at once. This is a pretty big surprise for a grenade build. By the time your first volley lands, your second volley is in the air. That’s 30 hits from retal.
An FT user who recognizes Retal damage can dodge out of his FJ and not worry about damage as bad as the Grenade thrower. The grenade thrower is usually deep in his tosses before he realizes he’s hitting a retal group.
Malkin Rawl – Charr Engineer, Tarnished Coast
Loudmouth, lousy PvPer, and mediocre PvEer.
I don’t own, I just play
Loudmouth, lousy PvPer, and mediocre PvEer.
I don’t own, I just play
After Omnomberry nerf FT becomes not only useless but suicidal at the WvW – coz Retaliation.
I never understood the “Uh-oh Retaliation” rebuttal to the Flamethrower. The Grenade Kit and Coated Bullets are just as affected by it, if not more so. As of right now there’s a thread not even half-way down the page complaining about Retaliation when using the Grenade Kit.
Flame Jet can be controlled and the casting channel can be canceled at any time. If you’re traited for Coated Bullets, your shots will go right through the crowd for 900 range. If you hit 3 people with it, whatever. But I’ve had it hit a lot more than that and have Retaliation hurt me just as badly as it does with the Flamethrower. The same with the Grenade Kit—especially Poison Grenade which lingers on the ground as a Combo field. If Retaliation starts chewing me up, I’ll just cancel Flame Jet at any time. It is not a big deal. I back off, heal myself, whatever.
And spare me the “BUT TIER 1 LOL” nonsense because I play on Sanctum of Rall.
Retaliation doesn’t just affect the Flamethrower. It affects all AoE builds—for all classes, and not just the Engineer. That is the risk vs. reward of these types of builds. Play it wrong and you’ll die every bus vs. bus fight; play it right and you’ll get badges like candy.
Man, I dont wanna make my calculations specially for you and specially for you once more time.
FT most weak in front of the face of Retaliation. Nades – lesser.
There is no needs to say where are you are playing at – your WvW experience very poor, this is obvious.
Why I’m not talking about nades? It’s easy – I didn’t care about that kit. Yes, it affected by Retaliation too. That’s why “so many” FT and nades Engineers at the WvW. This is sarcasm. I’m talking about massive fights here, so put down your useless speech about solo gankin.
All classes affected by Retaliation at the same level as Engis? Yes? Thanks for explaining of your game experience – zero experience.
If NOT – why you even post this? Argue for the argue – is it your forum way? very weak way, if honestly.
Massive fights = doesn’t really matter what you run. I don’t know how to tell you this, but, if you’re one person of 50 in WvW, you don’t matter. Your profession, your skill level, your build, none of that matters, ultimately.
This isn’t the movies, nobody is Rambo, and if you’re in the middle of a 50 man zone spamming moves and you’re eating retaliation… how about STOP what you’re doing and think a little.
It’s not really that hard except for people who don’t pay attention to the big red circle of health in the middle of their screen.
Jumzi (Ranger), Tarnished Coast
I feel that the basic problem is that the flamethrower is far too similar to the bomb kit in terms of what it brings to the table. There’s simply too much overlap between fire field, knock back, and blind on both kits. THAT is the main reason why the condition removal on the old kit refinement had value: it let the kit bring something that would be otherwise hard to fit into a build, and it was something that the bomb kit didn’t bring. That’s ALSO why the original juggernaut had value as well (even though it was OP): stability is somewhat hard to get on this class.
True.
The Bomb Kit is very powerful at what it does, and there is significant overlap in what each kit brings in a utility slot. I think the Bomb Kit is great. But in a lot of PvE content it’s totally unsuitable as a DPS option because of boss or environmental mechanics.
I have used it a lot more recently, especially in CoF p1 in place of the Grenade Kit. But the Flamethrower is a viable option in a lot of areas where the Bomb Kit simply is not.
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
I beleive HGH nade is better though, because Nades are generally better. Infact arenanet notices this too, prob why nades got nerfs. TBH, i have agreed with almost every change arenanet has made lately…. I said FT needed buffs, it got buffs, i said turrets needed buffs they got buffs, i said 100 nades was too powerful it got nerfed.
Problem is the 100nades nerf hit the FT as well, especially with the common FT/EG combination. I think the combination is still viable under the right circumstances, but if anything teh net result of the 100nades nerf was to widen the gap between FT/EG and grenadier.
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
Nades are fun and all, but they get very dull very quickly. Is using a HGH build with Flamethrower viable, or would it simply be an inferior HGH nade build?
I’m thinking of 0/30/0/30/10 with more tanky gear taking advantage of Juggernaut with HGH with a pistol and shield so i have 3 interrupts with blow back. Would this be decent or have we been just forced into Nade kit or a SD build with toolkit only?
I took off HGH. Might stacking is nice but I feel it takes away a lot of utility.
I use the same allocation of traits but instead I get swiftness for 5 seconds on crit and then vigor for 5 seconds when I get swiftness so I have perma-vigor when I’m in combat, virtually anyway.
I am playing around with the grandmaster slot. I know I don’t like HGH, so I’ve tried cleansing formula 409 which is nice but I use FT with Toolkit. That means to take advantage of that I would use Elixir B and be without a stunbreak so I decided to use backpack regen for the moment but I’ll probably change it later. I also don’t like Elixir U’s cooldown.
In the future I will probably default to Elixir R and use cleansing formula 409 but I’m still undecided.
Anyway I hear people say that FT is bad and by itself it can be underwhelming but I love it. I use full berserkers gear because the 4th trait line gives you a lot of vitality and juggernaut gives you a small bit of toughness. I find that to be sufficient.
I love the FT, it has a very short CD on a CC that it has. I love using the Toolkit 5 to pull, using pry bar, and then switching into FT for a flame blast. Alternatively, I use a rifle as well and instead of going into FT sometimes I will go into rifle to immobilize, then use rifle 3, and finally go into FT for the flame blast. All in all it does a high amount of damage.
It’s rare to pull off that combo, but there’s enough CC within the toolkit, FT, and Rifle to control a fight.
Just gotta look out for retaliation, that will murder you.
It would probably be inferior as most hgh focused around conditions and that lacks condition diversity.
however, HGH power is somewhat decent, I suppose you could build for that and FT. YOud have to change from being a team fight to side node holder though. I really liked FT and I have to admit I could not find a way to make it as useful as gren kit.
Guys.
Do not use HGH with the Flamethrower.
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
I’ve removed HGH since posting this, I now have 409 and Deadly mixture. I now focus on using the FT’s knack for applying crit based conditions like burn, bleed, and vulnerability. This is something the nade kit can’t do as well because it doesn’t have any sills that can crit 5 times a second. The double pop is dead but it is still a good skill to use after pushing someone back with FT3, let it hit them then pop and it does some good damage. I think a lot of people have been trying to use it as a purely power kit when it seems much more suited for conditions.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
I’ve removed HGH since posting this, I now have 409 and Deadly mixture. I now focus on using the FT’s knack for applying crit based conditions like burn, bleed, and vulnerability. This is something the nade kit can’t do as well because it doesn’t have any sills that can crit 5 times a second. The double pop is dead but it is still a good skill to use after pushing someone back with FT3, let it hit them then pop and it does some good damage. I think a lot of people have been trying to use it as a purely power kit when it seems much more suited for conditions.
I actually used it somewhat as a condition applier before switching to a power build.
In my experience, you get more from the power build in terms of damage. But, it isn’t to say that the FT as a condition applier is bad either, it’s also viable.
Personally, I use toolkit and FT together in a power build.
I think a lot of people have been trying to use it as a purely power kit when it seems much more suited for conditions.
I like using the Flamethrower as a condition spreader in PvP and WvW, but it scales best with Power over the course of a long fight in PvE. Flame Blast gets really good when you stack Critical Damage, and does more damage overall than if you spec for bleeds with the Flamethrower. Keep in mind that even with its high attack rate you’re never going to get more than 8-9 bleed stacks even with Sigil of Earth.
And seeing Flame Blast roll through a target for 3K and then explode for another 5K is just more fun.
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
I’ve removed HGH since posting this, I now have 409 and Deadly mixture. I now focus on using the FT’s knack for applying crit based conditions like burn, bleed, and vulnerability. This is something the nade kit can’t do as well because it doesn’t have any sills that can crit 5 times a second. The double pop is dead but it is still a good skill to use after pushing someone back with FT3, let it hit them then pop and it does some good damage. I think a lot of people have been trying to use it as a purely power kit when it seems much more suited for conditions.
FYI traited nades hit 6x per sec while FT hits for 5x per sec.
I’ve removed HGH since posting this, I now have 409 and Deadly mixture. I now focus on using the FT’s knack for applying crit based conditions like burn, bleed, and vulnerability. This is something the nade kit can’t do as well because it doesn’t have any sills that can crit 5 times a second. The double pop is dead but it is still a good skill to use after pushing someone back with FT3, let it hit them then pop and it does some good damage. I think a lot of people have been trying to use it as a purely power kit when it seems much more suited for conditions.
FYI traited nades hit 6x per sec while FT hits for 5x per sec.
How so? I know that if you trait it you get 3 nades per toss but aside from Barrage but even so it takes half a second to cast a toss and then there’s the time it takes to land. Even if you throw them inside yourself it takes about 1/4th of a second to land. Anything at a reasonable range takes longer.
There’s more reliability in the FT too as far as hitting your target, outside of PvE that is.
I’ve removed HGH since posting this, I now have 409 and Deadly mixture. I now focus on using the FT’s knack for applying crit based conditions like burn, bleed, and vulnerability. This is something the nade kit can’t do as well because it doesn’t have any sills that can crit 5 times a second. The double pop is dead but it is still a good skill to use after pushing someone back with FT3, let it hit them then pop and it does some good damage. I think a lot of people have been trying to use it as a purely power kit when it seems much more suited for conditions.
FYI traited nades hit 6x per sec while FT hits for 5x per sec.
How so? I know that if you trait it you get 3 nades per toss but aside from Barrage but even so it takes half a second to cast a toss and then there’s the time it takes to land. Even if you throw them inside yourself it takes about 1/4th of a second to land. Anything at a reasonable range takes longer.
There’s more reliability in the FT too as far as hitting your target, outside of PvE that is.
I think he means you can throw 2 grenades tosses in the time that flamethrower 1 ends.
I’ve removed HGH since posting this, I now have 409 and Deadly mixture. I now focus on using the FT’s knack for applying crit based conditions like burn, bleed, and vulnerability. This is something the nade kit can’t do as well because it doesn’t have any sills that can crit 5 times a second. The double pop is dead but it is still a good skill to use after pushing someone back with FT3, let it hit them then pop and it does some good damage. I think a lot of people have been trying to use it as a purely power kit when it seems much more suited for conditions.
FYI traited nades hit 6x per sec while FT hits for 5x per sec.
How so? I know that if you trait it you get 3 nades per toss but aside from Barrage but even so it takes half a second to cast a toss and then there’s the time it takes to land. Even if you throw them inside yourself it takes about 1/4th of a second to land. Anything at a reasonable range takes longer.
There’s more reliability in the FT too as far as hitting your target, outside of PvE that is.
I think he means you can throw 2 grenades tosses in the time that flamethrower 1 ends.
4 tosses.
I’ve removed HGH since posting this, I now have 409 and Deadly mixture. I now focus on using the FT’s knack for applying crit based conditions like burn, bleed, and vulnerability. This is something the nade kit can’t do as well because it doesn’t have any sills that can crit 5 times a second. The double pop is dead but it is still a good skill to use after pushing someone back with FT3, let it hit them then pop and it does some good damage. I think a lot of people have been trying to use it as a purely power kit when it seems much more suited for conditions.
FYI traited nades hit 6x per sec while FT hits for 5x per sec.
How so? I know that if you trait it you get 3 nades per toss but aside from Barrage but even so it takes half a second to cast a toss and then there’s the time it takes to land. Even if you throw them inside yourself it takes about 1/4th of a second to land. Anything at a reasonable range takes longer.
There’s more reliability in the FT too as far as hitting your target, outside of PvE that is.
I think he means you can throw 2 grenades tosses in the time that flamethrower 1 ends.
4 tosses.
probably I wouldnt be surprised. FT kit is kitten now.
I just don’t get why people are saying don’t use HGH with the FT. I run 10/30/0/30/0 HGH/PP/FT u fill in the numerals blanks. What is wrong with this.
I just don’t get why people are saying don’t use HGH with the FT. I run 10/30/0/30/0 HGH/PP/FT u fill in the numerals blanks. What is wrong with this.
Because it’s unnecessary. Juggernaut and Sigil of Strength do enough already. And in any group situation you’re not going to be the only one stacking Might.
What’s the point of rolling with 25 Might when you can roll with 18 instead and get to 25 constantly anyway and instead pick a trait that actually helps you in more significant ways like Protection Injection or Cleansing Formula?
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
How would a FT build get 18 stacks of might without HGH. I can see a constant 9 to 13 but 18 I just can’t see. Yes, there are other traits that could make up for some lost might like the deadly mixtures where u get 15% more damage.
I guess the real question is for the OP is, what trait lines make the flame thrower the most viable. Of course this is subjective.
How would a FT build get 18 stacks of might without HGH. I can see a constant 9 to 13 but 18 I just can’t see.
Juggernaut gives base 5 stacks of Might over 15 seconds. That’s 1 for every 3. With +30% Boon Duration from 30 points in Alchemy and 2 Hoelbrak + 2 Fire + 2 Strength runes giving +60% Might Duration, you’ll have +90% Might Duration. Juggernaut will give 9.5 stacks of Might.
Sigil of Strength on-crit procs 1 stack of Might that each last 10 seconds. With a 2-second internal cooldown that means you’re getting, at most, 5 stacks of Might. But with +90% Might Duration your stacks of Might last 19 seconds. That means that Sigil of Strength can now stack, with its 2-second internal cooldown, an additional 9.5 stacks of Might.
1. 9 stacks of Might from Juggernaut
2. 9 stacks of Might from Strength
3. ???
4. Profit!
Even if you’re not running H/F/S runes and opting for Altruism, you will self-stack 15 Might with no issue. With the change to Kit Refinement and the loss of our “second” Super Elixir, the Healing Turret is substantially more appealing now in group PvE situations given it has the condition cleanse your group may need/want. As such, 6/6 Altruism is less appealing and I’ve since gone the H/F/S route.
Acid Bomb also works great as a Blast finisher to proc Area Heals from your Healing Turret.
I guess the real question is for the OP is, what trait lines make the flame thrower the most viable.
There are two traits that boost the Flamethrower’s DPS: Deadly Mixture and Juggernaut. Incendiary Powder is additionally useful because Flame Jet was buffed in February to receive a 10% damage boost when your target is burning.
Pre-patch, when Kit Refinement was still useful, 10/30/0/20/10 was the best method given the change to Flame Jet. Before that, 0/30/0/25/15 was the best given Energy Conversion Matrix’s +1% damage per every boon applied > 5% critical damage from Tools.
There’s really only one method to getting the most out of the Flamethrower these days, and that’s 10/30/0/30/0. If you have another alternative, I’m all ears. I always look for variants that are viable.
[EG] Ethereal Guardians
(edited by Phineas Poe.3018)
I’ve revised my build,
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqalspyanuSfF17IBoHAuu3V0jH3YK/pAbB;ToAAzCqo4xwjgHLPOek8MIYWB
I decided that Rabid gear was a solid choice because you will find yourself in close quarters more often than a nade build. I still use elixirs with 409 because personally I like having consistent condition removal and because deadly mixture is in alchemy you might as well go with the full 30 points. You stack a lot less might in this build although I suppose you could add in a sigil of strength for more (do the cooldowns on earth and strength conflict with each other?). This build priorities staying in FT to stack conditions and only switching quickly to pistols. I’m still not sure about my rune choices although with Flame Legion you are dealing 15% extra damage to burning foes with flame jet. The bleeds and vulnerability that you constantly apply also serve as good covering conditions for the burn.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
I have used it a lot more recently, especially in CoF p1 in place of the Grenade Kit. But the Flamethrower is a viable option in a lot of areas where the Bomb Kit simply is not.
Eh, I’m pretty comfortable meleeing just about everything, even when built glassy. Which bosses are you talking about specifically?
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